My Lai and the Propaganda Fairy - A Prologue to Discussion
John Wayne
Angus McPuffin wrote:
> Even the name, "me lie", seems to taunt us.
That's because you DO lie. You attempt to hold up My Lai as the
only atrocity committed by the U.S. during the entire 18 years that
the U.S. military was in Vietnam. Read FAQs 2.12, 2.13, 2.16, 2.14
Oh hell, I'll put one here for you...
--------------------------------------------------
2.12 Did U.S. soldiers commit many war crimes?
Yes. From the book "After Tet" [Spector, 1993]:
"An investigation of "Torture of Prisoners of War by U.S. officers",
undertaken by the Army's Directorate of Military Personnel Policies,
concluded "the rationalization of this conduct by others who testified,
indicates very certainly that violations of the Geneva Convention and
ordinary views of humane treatment in handling PWs is more widespread.
Various coercive pressures varying from a slap in the face to use of
torture described by the witnesses [appears] to be standard practice."
In addition to several well known cases of mass atrocities (My Lai,
My Khe, Son Thang) there were scores of lesser known cases of
convictions. However, it is generally recognized by historians that
the U.S. military covered up (i.e. ignored or lied about) atrocities,
and the cover up went to the highest levels of command. An attitude
expressed by a Vietnam vet in this newsgroup may be typical of U.S.
soldiers: "I don't give a rats ass if I see a Vet commit a crime...
when it comes down to it.... I didn't see a damn thing. It was a
Brother."
In spite of the cover up there are many statements by Vietnam Vets
who witnessed war crimes. See the web sites below.
U.S. War Crimes:
http://www.homeusers.prestel.co.uk/littleton/v5_warcr.htm
VVAW Winter Soldier web site:
http://lists.village.virginia.edu/sixties/HTML_docs/Resources/Primary.html
--------------------------------------------------
You, Tegtmier, even fail miserably in your self-tortured "search for the
truth" about My Lai.
- There WAS a massive coverup by the MILITARY about My Lai.
- It was a CIVILIAN authority who brought My Lai to public attention
(Off the top of my head I can't remember who, but I think it
was Monihan from Hawaii. Thanks to the lower echelon military
man Ridenhour, who did not trust the military.)
- It was brought to the public's attention LONG after the actual event
occurred (as I recall about 6 months before Calley was even charged)
- The military coverup included an attempt to give Thompson a medal so
that he would keep his mouth shut about what he saw
- To this day, NO ONE has been punished for My Lai. Calley runs a
jewelry
store in Los Angeles.
> Is it a wonder, then, that
> on occasion some of these young men may lose their compass?
You, Tegtmier, are attempting to justify...don't!
> When the military ran countless statistical models
> comparing Calley's platoon to the "average" army combat unit, no
> differences appeared.
That, Tegtmier, is because they WERE average. Read the FAQs.
> The overwhelming bulk of the
> testimony of the men that served within A/1/20 speaks of the officers'
> disregard for the rights of the civilian population.
Yes, Tegtmier, that was the general attitude of the U.S. toward the
Vietnamese people. Read the FAQs.
> there
> had better be some very strong safeguards in place. While for the vast
> majority of units in Vietnam this was true...
This, Tegtmier, is NOT true. There are Vietnam vets in this very
newsgroup who have said it is ok to shoot a POW who has his hands
tied behind his back (and not one was corrected by a fellow vet).
In other words, Tegtmier, there were no "very strong safeguards in
place" and you guys don't know "the rules".
> Members of dysfunctional families often do not see their own problems.
Hmmmmm... I can't help but think of the bitter and cynical Vietnam vets
in this newsgroup..."dysfunctional" fits perfectly.
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Bill Clarke
John Wayne <jwa...@pilgrims.com> wrote in message
news:393B80C3...@pilgrims.com...
>
> Angus McPuffin wrote:
> > Even the name, "me lie", seems to taunt us.
>
> That's because you DO lie. You attempt to hold up My Lai as the
> only atrocity committed by the U.S. during the entire 18 years that
> the U.S. military was in Vietnam. Read FAQs 2.12, 2.13, 2.16, 2.14
>
Well dickhead you just told a damn big lie yourself. Show me one post by a
regular of this newsgroup that says My Lai was the only atrocity committed
by U.S. troops. We don't post it and we don't think it.
Since you know so much about it what unit did you say you were in to gain
all this experience and knowledge?
Bill Clarke
F Troop, 17th Cav
Edward Combs Jr.
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--------------------------------
"John Wayne" <jwa...@pilgrims.com> wrote in message
news:393B80C3...@pilgrims.com...
>
> Angus McPuffin wrote:
> > Even the name, "me lie", seems to taunt us.
>
> That's because you DO lie. You attempt to hold up My Lai as the
> only atrocity committed by the U.S. during the entire 18 years that
> the U.S. military was in Vietnam. Read FAQs 2.12, 2.13, 2.16, 2.14
>
Perry
<cla...@livingston.net> wrote:
>
>
>John Wayne <jwa...@pilgrims.com> wrote in message
>news:393B80C3...@pilgrims.com...
>>
>> Angus McPuffin wrote:
>> > Even the name, "me lie", seems to taunt us.
>>
>> That's because you DO lie. You attempt to hold up My Lai as the
>> only atrocity committed by the U.S. during the entire 18 years that
>> the U.S. military was in Vietnam. Read FAQs 2.12, 2.13, 2.16, 2.14
>>
>
>
>Well dickhead you just told a damn big lie yourself. Show me one post by a
>regular of this newsgroup that says My Lai was the only atrocity committed
>by U.S. troops. We don't post it and we don't think it.
>
>Since you know so much about it what unit did you say you were in to gain
>all this experience and knowledge?
>
>Bill Clarke
>F Troop, 17th Cav
>
>
I was watching CNN cold war special last night it was about
Afghanistan and the Russians who fought there. They were interviewing
several of the ex-Russian soldiers who fought there and they were
reflecting how they poured fuel on Women and children and burned them
alive and the excuse they gave was they were all enemy. Wonder why
the do-gooders don't investigate that and pester the newsgroups with
those stories. Wonder how many Russian soldiers have been
court-martial for war crimes.
Edward Combs Jr.
....................................................
"Perry" <pma...@mindspring.com> wrote in message news:ckcnjsk4r457uk337...@4ax.com...
Herb F.
these dicussions because I believe they are useless and just stuff the
trolls like to talk about to pass the time and piss us off.
I am going to make one comment now and I believed it then and I believe
it now. No Viet Cong was worth the life of one American. I do not mean
this in a racist way. the point I am making is that if I have a
Vietnamese that can give me information that might save American troops
from an ambush, I believe that it is my duty to get that information. To
have a squad taken out by a boobytrap when I have the man who set that
boobytrap is almost a criminal act on my part. That is all I have to
say. You can read what you want into that comment.
Edward Combs Jr.
nation) would either do as we say or say what we do.
At Bien Hoa(I've posted this before)a 9 or 10 year old girl sold soft drinks
just outside the main gate. One day she had some kind of explosives on her
body and set it off wounding a couple of American GIs and killing a couple
of Vietnamese(how many all together I don't know).
It is not the deed that I object to. It is the hypocrisy...While some troops
were building schools and visiting orphans, some were doing(or having it
done... as in National Police) odd things to the VC/NVA.
...................................................
"Herb F." <Be...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:26638-39...@storefull-121.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
Edward Combs Jr.
POW. None of the 13 had us lay a hand on the POW......they were all head
games.
At a going away pary one of the German instrectors said ; " We have given
you 13 methods that will work if you have complete control of the POW. Where
he stays, when and what he eats, when and how long he gets to sleep, but
there are other, more un-orthodox methods that you will learn in the field."
I learned several by talking to the people at the PICs(National Police POW
Interrogation Centers). Most Americans just watched the SNV did the dirty
work. Out in the field some American GIs "bleed their own sources" as on man
put it.
.....................................
Perry
What struck me was the Russian soldiers seemed proud of what they did.
On Mon, 05 Jun 2000 22:10:12 GMT, "Bob (RS) " <Damy...@earthlink.net>
wrote:
>Perry;
> I remember seeing that investigative report on the news back then. If I
>remember it was a british reporter who was on the site of the crime where the
>soviets cornered most of the people of an afghani village in some tunnel or
>underground bunker and dumped a truckload of gasoline on them and torched it.
>this guy had photos of bodies the workjs, not one "free press" picked up on
>it. the Soviets were the favored son of the media in that war too. All you
>ever heard was the atrocities committ3ed on the russian captives of the
>Afghans but never the other side.
>Bob
Patrick T.
wrote:
Wait, wait, wait.
I speak of the Rules of Engagement as I remember them. You yelled
Dung Lai three times, if they did not stop you were authorized to blow
them to hell and back with no breaking of the rules in Nam.
Now if you had a tunnel complex, and you told them to come out and
they wouldn't, a grenade usually went as the next warning. I don't
particularly see anything wrong with gasoline taking the place of a
grenade.
It wouldn't be shame I was feeling if a couple arms and legs came
flying up in the air if I knew for a fact they were v.c., it is the
question of whether they were or not that intrigues me as to whether
it was a war crime or not. I was lucky, I was told what to think by
my gunny and acted accordingly, so never worried about whether I was
right or wrong.
I certainly could sleep nights over this, am I wrong on this one?
Patrick T.
wrote:
Interesting. I have been lurking because I wanted to hear what Angus
(John T.) had to say on all this. I was there too, different time
frame, those people were most expert at booby trap, punje stakes and
the like, in retrospect, it would appear they gave everyone a hard
time and probably still do with the commies.
The thing that turns me off to the whole issue of My Lai is who shall
sit in judgement. Calley was wrong and I don't think much of his
chain of command. I don't think anything went right with that unit,
which I put down to poor training and discipline, but make no mistake,
that place was evil from the git go, I understand that too.
I guess my point is, a lot of good people died there and lost limbs,
etc., but they were before the time Calley got there. I am not racist
about the Viet people, but the fact is, (and I know I am going to piss
some people off here) they didn't think enough of thier freedom and
country to make it count when it mattered, that can not be said about
the people of My Lai, they were independent rogues a hundred years
before we got there.
I am convinced 4 hours at My Lai is a very good book, don't know how
accurate it is, but it is a very good book.
Perry
If that was the case I would agree but they routinely did it to women
and children not just those in a tunnel complex.
Greg Linscott
shall sit in judgement. Calley was wrong and I don't think much of his
chain of command. I don't think anything went right with that unit,
which I put down to poor training and discipline, but make no mistake,
that place was evil from the git go, I understand that too. >>
Patrick,
People try over and over to isolate certain incidents. Their is no
judgement in war. There is war and there is peace. Trying to define war
activities is awkward and incomplete. War is all about barbarianism,
slaughters, annihilations, etc.; those are the objectives of war.
The "good" war was anything but good.
Best Regards
Greg
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Ted Gittinger
John Wayne wrote in message <393B80C3...@pilgrims.com>...
>
>Angus McPuffin wrote:
>> Even the name, "me lie", seems to taunt us.
>
>That's because you DO lie. You attempt to hold up My Lai as the
>only atrocity committed by the U.S. during the entire 18 years that
>the U.S. military was in Vietnam. Read FAQs 2.12, 2.13, 2.16, 2.14
>
ubiquitous, scumsucking, malodorous, noisome, inconsequential,
pusillanimous, drivelling, misbegotten, spavined, fly-blown, foundered,
slavering, rabid, rancid, grasping, son of a mangy she-camel, you
undoubtedly would not say such unkind things.
But as it is. . . . . .
>
Don Thompson
shithouse shultis, not colon. Its his style.
--
Don Thompson
Zoomie(BushBug)
ACA#3460
TLCB#335
Any Time, Any Place
Pull the chocks, lets get this kite in the air.
"Bob (RS) " <Damy...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:2jmojsg708hsm8oal...@4ax.com...
> Ted;
> You should've sent him a dictionary with that one. < G >
> Bob
> ?spavined?
Patrick T.
wrote:
Well, you know what Billary and Thunder Thighs says, "It takes a
Village". The next time you get a chance to watch that Clint Eastwood
movie where he has the town painted red, watch and think Viet Nam.
You go into a ville, you know damn well that place was hostile, there
is no tricking yourself into thinking otherwise. You can see it in
the eyes, the movements, everything.
We were government troops in their eyes, and they knew all about
government troops, nothing we could say or do to change thier minds
just passing through. We had to stay and protect them, or burn it
down and send them to a camp. Just the way of it I guess.
>Patrick;
> The way I remember this is that the villagers were families of Afghans
>fighting in the mountains. Non combatants. It was a while ago and I my be
>wrong but thats the way I remember it. If they were fighters then thats a
>different story. I would agree with you. Then again..no experience to make the
>call.
>Bob
HOLLIS6475
>saying "it's not my place to judge". It IS your place to judge. Make
>no
>mistake about it.
>
damn, have you ever got off that arm chair and ever played..................
Patrick T.
wrote:
>
>
>"Patrick T." wrote:
>> The thing that turns me off to the whole issue of My Lai is who shall
>> sit in judgement.
>
>We. Us. Each one of us. All should judge. That is our responsibility.
>My God, why do you hesitate. How else can we stop the shit.
My name isn't Frankly, it is Patrick and I know a little bit more
about these situations than you could ever imagine there Walter Mitty.
My God, My Family and My Marine Corps judges me, no one else is even
remotely qualified!
>Frankly, the image I have right now is of you watching atrocities
>happening,
>saying "it's not my place to judge". It IS your place to judge. Make
>no
>mistake about it.
From the outside, you can't understand it
From the inside, I can't explain it.
William Langston
out. That give ya any clues?
SF, Bill Langston.
"Bill Clarke" <cla...@livingston.net> wrote in message
news:sjn2hpk...@corp.supernews.com...
|
|
| John Wayne <jwa...@pilgrims.com> wrote in message
| news:393B80C3...@pilgrims.com...
| >
| > Angus McPuffin wrote:
| > > Even the name, "me lie", seems to taunt us.
| >
| > That's because you DO lie. You attempt to hold up My Lai as the
| > only atrocity committed by the U.S. during the entire 18 years that
| > the U.S. military was in Vietnam. Read FAQs 2.12, 2.13, 2.16, 2.14
| >
|
|
William Langston
people of a village. That's not the same thing as say, the Marines flaming a
cave full of Japanese soldiers. I took notice of the villagers, which would
include women and children and old folks as to the main point of the
statement, not the actual killing.
Am I right Perry, is that what you meant?
SF, Bill Langston.
"Patrick T." <p.t.h...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:embojs82abpa7n75q...@4ax.com...
| On Mon, 05 Jun 2000 17:15:48 -0500, Perry <psma...@prodigy.net>
| wrote:
|
| Wait, wait, wait.
|
| I speak of the Rules of Engagement as I remember them. You yelled
| Dung Lai three times, if they did not stop you were authorized to blow
| them to hell and back with no breaking of the rules in Nam.
|
| Now if you had a tunnel complex, and you told them to come out and
| they wouldn't, a grenade usually went as the next warning. I don't
| particularly see anything wrong with gasoline taking the place of a
| grenade.
|
| It wouldn't be shame I was feeling if a couple arms and legs came
| flying up in the air if I knew for a fact they were v.c., it is the
| question of whether they were or not that intrigues me as to whether
| it was a war crime or not. I was lucky, I was told what to think by
| my gunny and acted accordingly, so never worried about whether I was
| right or wrong.
|
| I certainly could sleep nights over this, am I wrong on this one?
| >
| >What struck me was the Russian soldiers seemed proud of what they did.
| >
| >
| >
| >On Mon, 05 Jun 2000 22:10:12 GMT, "Bob (RS) " <Damy...@earthlink.net>
| >wrote:
| >
John Wayne
> the point I am making is that if I have a
> Vietnamese that can give me information that might save American troops
> from an ambush, I believe that it is my duty to get that information. To
> have a squad taken out by a boobytrap when I have the man who set that
> boobytrap is almost a criminal act on my part.
I understand what you are saying. If you can save just one American
life,
torturing every prisoner is worthwhile, since you may get some
information
about where boobytraps are. Really, I understand exactly what you are
saying.
> That is all I have to
> say. You can read what you want into that comment.
What I don't understand Herb is why you don't just come right out and
say
exactly what you mean. Why beat around the bush and let people read
what they want into it. If you're right, then you're right. Be a man
and stand up for your beliefs. Really, after 30+ years, I doubt if any
Vietnam vet is going to be held accountable for anything...who cares
anymore.
L.B. Jones
<smS_4.7010$Fe.2...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Edward
Combs Jr." <edc...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>At the Interrogators school we were taught 13 methods on how to
break down a
>POW. None of the 13 had us lay a hand on the POW......they were
all head
>games.
Precicely put. If any interrogator thinks that he needs to "beat
information out of a POW", then I suggest that he's utterly
imcompetent. What on earth would make him believe that he could
trust information derived by physical pain? He'll tell you
anything to make you stop shoving bamboo splinters under his
fingernails; that doesn't make the information accurate.
Jones
CoA/44/36/44/whaddaheck
piss on ya
Perry
condemn the entire US Army over MY Lai and not one peep about the
Russians who make it a habit of killing every thing in sight.
On Tue, 6 Jun 2000 00:53:25 -0500, "William Langston" <l...@cei.net>
wrote:
Edward Combs Jr.
from the POW, but other than the sadist doing it just for fun torture should
not be applied to get information from the man being tortured but to put
the fear of God in the POW watching.
................................
"L.B. Jones" <lbj0nes...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:260d801c...@usw-ex0106-046.remarq.com...
Jerry Fowler
wrote:
>
>John Wayne wrote in message <393B80C3...@pilgrims.com>...
>>
>>Angus McPuffin wrote:
>>> Even the name, "me lie", seems to taunt us.
>>
>>That's because you DO lie. You attempt to hold up My Lai as the
>>only atrocity committed by the U.S. during the entire 18 years that
>>the U.S. military was in Vietnam. Read FAQs 2.12, 2.13, 2.16, 2.14
>>
>Now, now Mr. Coleman. If you were not such a mendacious, salacious,
>ubiquitous, scumsucking, malodorous, noisome, inconsequential,
>pusillanimous, drivelling, misbegotten, spavined, fly-blown, foundered,
>slavering, rabid, rancid, grasping, son of a mangy she-camel, you
>undoubtedly would not say such unkind things.
>
>But as it is. . . . . .
>
Nice run ted!!
Jerry
Patrick T.
wrote:
I am not woofing on Perry, but rather making a rather pointed
observation that many people don't understand. That is, it was very
difficult to walk into a strange village, see the hostility and make a
spot judgement as to who was, and who was not the bad guys.
The V.C. often picked the rules, and while it is very gutsy to open up
on a Company of armed to the teeth Marines, it is chicken shit to hide
behind the villagers.
I ain't no Dino. My memory is going, but I do remember that we were
more concerned about what Lou Walt thought than anyone in Geneva if
you get my drift. And even more directly in those early years, our
Gunney represented Lou Walt through a voice from God.
We did not dispute that basic belief as I remember it. If that Gunney
said "Smoking Lamp was lit", we didn't sit there and think. I do not
remember being overly concerned about the ultimate consequences, but I
would to this day fully expect my actions to be accountable by the
UCMJ with no regrets.
I also know a friend in the 9th Marines who see's it differently, he
remembers it as a war crime, but then he is not only a liberal
democrat, he is a counseler, etc. His path may have been chosen in
his childhood, just like mine. He is also very bitter to this day, I
lose some sleep, but not about the choices we made back then.
I would like to say, as long as I am on a rant, I believed until
Carter got elected in the very basic Chain of Command, the Holy
Trinity, the Catholic Church and General Motors. I believed it and
lived it to the fullest. But Carter was a good man who was not
Presidential material, and I have changed completely since that time.
Now I question everything, no exceptions that I can think of at the
moment. That Gunney might have seen one less grunt with a zippo. I
don't really know anymore.
Semper Fi
Bill Clarke
William Langston <l...@cei.net> wrote in message
news:hc0%4.159$Op7.26...@typhoon.cei.net...
> Bill, he was in the 173rd and he was Airborne, that's about all I can
figure
> out. That give ya any clues?
>
> SF, Bill Langston.
>
>
Getting a little slow in my old age. Thanks Bill.
Bill Clarke
F Troop, 17th Cav
> "Bill Clarke" <cla...@livingston.net> wrote in message
> news:sjn2hpk...@corp.supernews.com...
> |
> |
> | John Wayne <jwa...@pilgrims.com> wrote in message
> | news:393B80C3...@pilgrims.com...
> | >
> | > Angus McPuffin wrote:
> | > > Even the name, "me lie", seems to taunt us.
> | >
> | > That's because you DO lie. You attempt to hold up My Lai as the
> | > only atrocity committed by the U.S. during the entire 18 years that
> | > the U.S. military was in Vietnam. Read FAQs 2.12, 2.13, 2.16, 2.14
> | >
> |
> |
> | Well dickhead you just told a damn big lie yourself. Show me one post
by
> a
> | regular of this newsgroup that says My Lai was the only atrocity
committed
Bill Clarke
HOLLIS6475 <holli...@aol.comnoants> wrote in message
news:20000605235215...@ng-fc1.aol.com...
> >From: John Wayne
>
> >saying "it's not my place to judge". It IS your place to judge. Make
> >no
> >mistake about it.
> >
>
> damn, have you ever got off that arm chair and ever
played..................
>
>
>
I think we have us another dandy here Hollis. Where in hell do they keep
coming from?
Herb F.
If you want to see a great Russian-Afgan war movie, rent a copy of "The
Beast." Not the one about the squid. The one I am recommending was about
a Russian tank crew who murders some Afgans, and then gets separated
from it's squadron, leading to a hunt by the Afgans holy warriors who
want revenge. It is scary stuff!
Patrick T.
wrote:
I saw it twice, the first time for entertainment, the second for
tactical and technical issues. We could have kicked their ass if we
ever went to war with those russian peasants.
I was thinking too about that movie with the Orang that Clint Eastwood
did, I think it was any which way but loose. Whereupon Clints side
kick tells the Orang to "Trash the Car". I loved that scene, it
reminded me of my little brother.
Rob Cookson
--
- - -
Rob Cookson
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety"
Benjamin Franklin
Patrick T. <p.t.h...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:8d8qjs40ugevb1u2j...@4ax.com...
pmartin
Hick.
Patrick T.
<tired...@nogood.com> wrote:
Yea, you should talk, when my brother comes back to town, I am going
to show him that handsome Marine thread.
>"Clyde, Scrap the Caddy"
It will be "Mikey, Find Rob" He has just purchased an Ocean going
Kayak and is bound and determined to learn how to use it.
Rob Cookson
Am I in trouble again? "Clyde Scrap The Caddy" was just the line from the
movie you mentioned you enjoyed. Just striving for accuracy in these
important historical matters. <G>
As for the Handsome Marine thread I may have violated my own policy of never
letting my mouth write any checks that my body can't cash. I'm kinda
sourounded here, I've got you blocking my route to Canada, Hollis and David
preventing an escape to Mexico via I-5, Chandler blocking my route to the
Bahamas, Langston- well he'll go anywhere to start some trouble. I hope
Bill Clarke remembers that thread started with me coming to his aid, I may
need a hiding spot down there in Texas.
Peace,
--
- - -
Rob Cookson
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety"
Benjamin Franklin
Patrick T. <p.t.h...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:bvbqjs497i3p8vrfc...@4ax.com...
William Langston
more?
SF, Bill Langston.
"L.B. Jones" <lbj0nes...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:260d801c...@usw-ex0106-046.remarq.com...
| In article
<snip>
Rob Cookson
Ed Gillette Kayaked from San Diego to HI, I think it took him 67 days, can't
remember for sure. I like sleeping on the ground thank you very much. As
for the duct tape, yeah not a bad idea, maybe I should put on some mittens
so I can't type too.
Man, I didn't know you Marines were such sensitive guys. I gotta be more
careful.
--
- - -
Rob Cookson
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety"
Benjamin Franklin
David Gorick <dgo...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:cwb%4.1229$2X2....@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> Not much left to do but get in your kayak and head west. With a little
luck
> and a lot of paddling you might make Tahiti in a month. <g>
>
> For a nice guy your mouth sure gets you in a heap of trouble. I suggest
> duct tape.
>
> David
>
>
> "Rob Cookson" <tired...@nogood.com> wrote in message
> news:8hjf2o$kcv$1...@slb3.atl.mindspring.net...
David Gorick
Patrick T.
<tired...@nogood.com> wrote:
You mean you have lived this long and not heard of our sensitivity
training? My D.I. had a dream someone harmed one of his cock roaches
and got us up at 4 a.m. to see if we could find it and give it mouth
to mouth. When we couldn't find it, he made us do about 1000 push ups
in atonement.
Yea, we are sensitive, just misunderstood. And bye the bye, Bill
Clark won't help you, he loves us jarheads.
David Gorick
67 days requires a lot of food and water. Just how big was his kayak
anyway? How about the other things of life like sleeping? Trying to take a
dump in the middle of a storm tossed ocean must be a real challenge. It
would seem to me that the open ocean would be a good place to die. Kind of
like those idiots who try sailing around the world in 12 foot sailboats.
Stupidity comes in all shapes and sizes.
David
"Rob Cookson" <tired...@nogood.com> wrote in message
news:8hjgo8$1fb$1...@slb6.atl.mindspring.net...
> Yeah but I don't know what I did this time! I was agreeing with Patrick.
>
> Ed Gillette Kayaked from San Diego to HI, I think it took him 67 days,
can't
> remember for sure. I like sleeping on the ground thank you very much. As
> for the duct tape, yeah not a bad idea, maybe I should put on some mittens
> so I can't type too.
>
> Man, I didn't know you Marines were such sensitive guys. I gotta be more
> careful.
>
> --
> - - -
> Rob Cookson
> "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety
> deserve neither liberty nor safety"
> Benjamin Franklin
> David Gorick <dgo...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:cwb%4.1229$2X2....@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Rob Cookson
women. But for the record let it be known that I fully acknowledge your
desire to be known as handsome and sensitive as well as a bad-ass. <Big
Grin>
I do appreciate your willingness to continue to try to further my education,
its an uphill battle I know, I guess that's why its you Marines that have
taken on that job, you're always looking for a challenge.
I assume that if Bill won't help me than there is always the option of
getting my ass kicked and then buying the next round of beer? And if you
guys are in a hurry we can always save time by skipping the ass kicking part
and getting on to the beer.
Cheers,
--
- - -
Rob Cookson
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety"
Benjamin Franklin
Patrick T. <p.t.h...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:deiqjs0duu4qapf3c...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 6 Jun 2000 11:44:26 -0700, "Rob Cookson"
> <tired...@nogood.com> wrote:
>
> You mean you have lived this long and not heard of our sensitivity
> training? My D.I. had a dream someone harmed one of his cock roaches
> and got us up at 4 a.m. to see if we could find it and give it mouth
> to mouth. When we couldn't find it, he made us do about 1000 push ups
> in atonement.
>
> Yea, we are sensitive, just misunderstood. And bye the bye, Bill
> Clark won't help you, he loves us jarheads.
Patrick T.
<dgo...@earthlink.net> wrote:
Aue contrare! Read the Voyage of the Tinkerbelle. It is a facinating
book, I have read it three times. A 14' footer across the Atlantic.
Great Stuff, rather than a plane, I would much rather go by boat.
Another classic and worth reading is The Strange Case of Donald
Crowhurst.
>I didn't know it was possible to paddle one of those little things that far.
>67 days requires a lot of food and water. Just how big was his kayak
>anyway? How about the other things of life like sleeping? Trying to take a
>dump in the middle of a storm tossed ocean must be a real challenge. It
>would seem to me that the open ocean would be a good place to die. Kind of
>like those idiots who try sailing around the world in 12 foot sailboats.
>Stupidity comes in all shapes and sizes.
>
>David
>
>
>"Rob Cookson" <tired...@nogood.com> wrote in message
>news:8hjgo8$1fb$1...@slb6.atl.mindspring.net...
>> Yeah but I don't know what I did this time! I was agreeing with Patrick.
>>
>> Ed Gillette Kayaked from San Diego to HI, I think it took him 67 days,
>can't
>> remember for sure. I like sleeping on the ground thank you very much. As
>> for the duct tape, yeah not a bad idea, maybe I should put on some mittens
>> so I can't type too.
>>
>> Man, I didn't know you Marines were such sensitive guys. I gotta be more
>> careful.
>>
>> --
>> - - -
>> Rob Cookson
>> "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
>safety
>> deserve neither liberty nor safety"
>> Benjamin Franklin
>> > > --
>> > > - - -
>> > > Rob Cookson
>> > > "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
>> > safety
>> > > deserve neither liberty nor safety"
>> > > Benjamin Franklin
>> > > Patrick T. <p.t.h...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
>> > > news:bvbqjs497i3p8vrfc...@4ax.com...
David Gorick
good beer to be drunk. The fighting doesn't start until after the beer
stops flowing. No point is wasting good beer or a good fight. <g> Only the
Australians like to fight and drink at the same time.
By the way that bottle of Chinook Beer I drunk with you in Seattle was some
great stuff. I'd almost move just for the beer. Is that local only or do
they sell it elsewhere? Could you find out for me?
Thanks,
David
"Rob Cookson" <tired...@nogood.com> wrote in message
news:8hjjan$9vn$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net...
> I dunno Patrick, Bill seems to think you guys were trying to steal his
> women. But for the record let it be known that I fully acknowledge your
> desire to be known as handsome and sensitive as well as a bad-ass. <Big
> Grin>
>
> I do appreciate your willingness to continue to try to further my
education,
> its an uphill battle I know, I guess that's why its you Marines that have
> taken on that job, you're always looking for a challenge.
>
> I assume that if Bill won't help me than there is always the option of
> getting my ass kicked and then buying the next round of beer? And if you
> guys are in a hurry we can always save time by skipping the ass kicking
part
> and getting on to the beer.
>
> Cheers,
>
> --
> - - -
> Rob Cookson
> "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety
> deserve neither liberty nor safety"
> Benjamin Franklin
> Patrick T. <p.t.h...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:deiqjs0duu4qapf3c...@4ax.com...
> > On Tue, 6 Jun 2000 11:44:26 -0700, "Rob Cookson"
> > <tired...@nogood.com> wrote:
> >
> > You mean you have lived this long and not heard of our sensitivity
> > training? My D.I. had a dream someone harmed one of his cock roaches
> > and got us up at 4 a.m. to see if we could find it and give it mouth
> > to mouth. When we couldn't find it, he made us do about 1000 push ups
> > in atonement.
> >
> > Yea, we are sensitive, just misunderstood. And bye the bye, Bill
> > Clark won't help you, he loves us jarheads.
Patrick T.
<tired...@nogood.com> wrote:
I don't know, it is more humiliating to be the first to pass out with
the beer. They get a can of red paint and paint your ass red while
you are passed out.
Someone threatened to do that to me in Amarillo, my favorite drinking
spot on the planet, and I just laughed. Turns out they need to get a
little cutie to open up the paint locker, (they keep it under lock and
key) and they would never do that knowing a Marine was in jeopardy of
being embarrassed.
Rob Cookson
he rigged as a single. To sleep he would slither down inside and put a
hatch cover over the cockpit. He was caught in a huge storm and blown so
far off course that he thought he was going to miss all of the islands. All
of his electronics failed in his first week out and he had to rely on
celestial navigation.
http://www.drachenmanufaktur.de/y_archiv/kayak.htm
I couldn't find much online but here's what I did find.
Hans Lindeman crossed the Atlantic twice, once in a canoe and once in a
kayak. Kayaks have had some military use too.
Anyone ever hear of kayaks used by the military in Viet Nam>
--
- - -
Rob Cookson
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety"
Benjamin Franklin
David Gorick <dgo...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:34c%4.1301$2X2....@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> I didn't know it was possible to paddle one of those little things that
far.
> 67 days requires a lot of food and water. Just how big was his kayak
> anyway? How about the other things of life like sleeping? Trying to take
a
> dump in the middle of a storm tossed ocean must be a real challenge. It
> would seem to me that the open ocean would be a good place to die. Kind
of
> like those idiots who try sailing around the world in 12 foot sailboats.
> Stupidity comes in all shapes and sizes.
>
> David
>
>
> "Rob Cookson" <tired...@nogood.com> wrote in message
> news:8hjgo8$1fb$1...@slb6.atl.mindspring.net...
> > Yeah but I don't know what I did this time! I was agreeing with
Patrick.
> >
> > Ed Gillette Kayaked from San Diego to HI, I think it took him 67 days,
> can't
> > remember for sure. I like sleeping on the ground thank you very much.
As
> > for the duct tape, yeah not a bad idea, maybe I should put on some
mittens
> > so I can't type too.
> >
> > Man, I didn't know you Marines were such sensitive guys. I gotta be
more
> > careful.
> >
> > --
> > - - -
> > Rob Cookson
> > "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
> safety
> > deserve neither liberty nor safety"
> > Benjamin Franklin
> > David Gorick <dgo...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> > news:cwb%4.1229$2X2....@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> > > Not much left to do but get in your kayak and head west. With a
little
> > luck
> > > and a lot of paddling you might make Tahiti in a month. <g>
> > >
> > > For a nice guy your mouth sure gets you in a heap of trouble. I
suggest
> > > duct tape.
> > >
> > > David
> > >
> > >
> > > "Rob Cookson" <tired...@nogood.com> wrote in message
> > > > --
> > > > - - -
> > > > Rob Cookson
> > > > "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary
> > > safety
> > > > deserve neither liberty nor safety"
> > > > Benjamin Franklin
> > > > Patrick T. <p.t.h...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:bvbqjs497i3p8vrfc...@4ax.com...
William Langston
guy that SWAM the Atlantic! Of course taking a dump was probably not too
bad, ha ha.
SF, Bill Langston.
David Gorick
the way. And a 20 ft doublewide kayak is kind is kind of like having a
floating trailer. There's guys in the backwoods of (edited for safety,
mine) raising families in smaller trailers than that. <g> Still, not an
endeavor that I would rush out and try. I've always wanted to sail across
the Pacific but I have a 60 ft catamaran in mind with a couple of other
people. None of this lonely sailor crap for me.
David
"Rob Cookson" <tired...@nogood.com> wrote in message
news:8hjlnq$798$1...@slb1.atl.mindspring.net...
William Langston
about even the little kids blowing us up! That one thing alone, makes the
way the grunts looked at things different than our older brothers and
fathers and grandfathers, etc., etc..
SF, Bill Langston.
"Patrick T." <p.t.h...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:jk0qjss3n5h4i7l7p...@4ax.com...
| >"Patrick T." <p.t.h...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
Patrick T.
<tired...@nogood.com> wrote:
The snakes were too big, would have thought the boat was chow call.
L.B. Jones
Langston" <l...@cei.net> wrote:
>Ah ha! But what if you tell him that if he's wrong, you are
coming back for
>more?
>
>SF, Bill Langston.
Better to just get good info the first time.
HOLLIS6475
> Where in hell do they keep
>coming from
Good question, maybe same old few trolls with name changes.......... it
would be cool if they got into video games and quit filling up our
filters..........
H.
HOLLIS6475
> And if you
>guys are in a hurry we can always save time by skipping the ass kicking part
>and getting on to the beer.
>
Or we can subsitute pizza for that ass kinckin' too!!
H.
pmartin
that ol VA check.
Sorry guys business is business.
"HOLLIS6475" <holli...@aol.comnoants> wrote in message
news:20000606172711...@ng-da1.aol.com...
Rob Cookson
I know SF maritime ops groups that are currently deployed in indochina still
use them. Just wondering if there was any use during Viet Nam war.
--
- - -
Rob Cookson
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety"
Benjamin Franklin
Patrick T. <p.t.h...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:p7oqjsgpc4n6ku9vv...@4ax.com...
Rob Cookson
The beer was Red Hook Chinook. Red Hook is a micro gone macro brewerey, I
bet they have distribution in LA. Now what I'm not sure of is whether or
not they bottle the Chinook of if it is only in kegs.
But yes the area has lots of good beer.
Cheers,
--
- - -
Rob Cookson
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety"
Benjamin Franklin
David Gorick <dgo...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:DLc%4.1368$2X2....@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> Beer? Beer? Did someone say beer? Rob, Marines never fight while there is
> good beer to be drunk. The fighting doesn't start until after the beer
> stops flowing. No point is wasting good beer or a good fight. <g> Only
the
> Australians like to fight and drink at the same time.
>
> By the way that bottle of Chinook Beer I drunk with you in Seattle was
some
> great stuff. I'd almost move just for the beer. Is that local only or do
> they sell it elsewhere? Could you find out for me?
>
> Thanks,
> David
>
> "Rob Cookson" <tired...@nogood.com> wrote in message
> news:8hjjan$9vn$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net...
> > I dunno Patrick, Bill seems to think you guys were trying to steal his
> > women. But for the record let it be known that I fully acknowledge your
> > desire to be known as handsome and sensitive as well as a bad-ass. <Big
> > Grin>
> >
> > I do appreciate your willingness to continue to try to further my
> education,
> > its an uphill battle I know, I guess that's why its you Marines that
have
> > taken on that job, you're always looking for a challenge.
> >
> > I assume that if Bill won't help me than there is always the option of
> > getting my ass kicked and then buying the next round of beer? And if
you
> > guys are in a hurry we can always save time by skipping the ass kicking
> part
> > and getting on to the beer.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > --
> > - - -
> > Rob Cookson
> > "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
> safety
> > deserve neither liberty nor safety"
> > Benjamin Franklin
> > Patrick T. <p.t.h...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> > news:deiqjs0duu4qapf3c...@4ax.com...
> > > On Tue, 6 Jun 2000 11:44:26 -0700, "Rob Cookson"
> > > <tired...@nogood.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > You mean you have lived this long and not heard of our sensitivity
> > > training? My D.I. had a dream someone harmed one of his cock roaches
> > > and got us up at 4 a.m. to see if we could find it and give it mouth
> > > to mouth. When we couldn't find it, he made us do about 1000 push ups
> > > in atonement.
> > >
> > > Yea, we are sensitive, just misunderstood. And bye the bye, Bill
> > > Clark won't help you, he loves us jarheads.
Rob Cookson
person kayak. 20' is not especially long for a kayak. It's quite a bit
different than sailing, no keel or ballast or lee boards, no ability to sail
off the wind. No way to stand and walk about.
Not my idea of a good time.
Cheers,
--
- - -
Rob Cookson
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety"
Benjamin Franklin
David Gorick <dgo...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Qld%4.1538$bj.8...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> Read the story but isn't that more like sailing? I thought he paddled all
> the way. And a 20 ft doublewide kayak is kind is kind of like having a
> floating trailer. There's guys in the backwoods of (edited for safety,
> mine) raising families in smaller trailers than that. <g> Still, not an
> endeavor that I would rush out and try. I've always wanted to sail across
> the Pacific but I have a 60 ft catamaran in mind with a couple of other
> people. None of this lonely sailor crap for me.
>
> David
>
>
>
> "Rob Cookson" <tired...@nogood.com> wrote in message
> news:8hjlnq$798$1...@slb1.atl.mindspring.net...
pmartin
They, the basic trooper when he came home was shit on.
Their VA is worse than ours.
If some guy is bragging of killing...well that sounds like
some jerks in Tail Wind or No Gun Ri.
On one hand from WW II is the USSR trooper can be
a ruthless dude, but it comes more from lack of brains
say the Mongol types, they have to fight for food, like
*Winfield* did. They just don't get tossed in a LBJ.
Don't underestimate or overestimate them.
It will be a Cristian nation, the Moslum hate us all.
They scare me, but first is the Chinese. You can't
deal with both of them. Our next war is China.
Count on that.
"Angus McPuffin" <mcpu...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:393f6174...@enews.newsguy.com...
> On Mon, 05 Jun 2000 09:05:33 -0500, Perry <pma...@mindspring.com>
> wrote:
>
> >I was watching CNN cold war special last night it was about
> >Afghanistan and the Russians who fought there. They were interviewing
> >several of the ex-Russian soldiers who fought there and they were
> >reflecting how they poured fuel on Women and children and burned them
> >alive and the excuse they gave was they were all enemy. Wonder why
> >the do-gooders don't investigate that and pester the newsgroups with
> >those stories. Wonder how many Russian soldiers have been
> >court-martial for war crimes.
>
> Perhaps because as American, and particularly those of us who are
> Vietnam veterans, have something to say about the Vietnam War, and
> indeed, share in our societal handling of the war. The same cannot be
> said of the Russia incursion into Afghanistan. Each country must deal
> with its own issues, and responsible for internalizing those issues.
> While we can make some comment about the Russians, it is the action of
> the American nation that we are required to come to grips with, Most
> certainly, in the case of the Vietnam War, many things remain highly
> contested, This debate is not just a moot exercise, but rather an
> important part of creating the social reality under which future
> generations will function. To say that we have the same stake in what
> occurred elsewhere just doesn't make sense, nor are those who would
> criticique the American involvement in SEAsia under the slightest
> requirement to likewise engage the acts of the NVA and NLF, much less
> the Russians,
>
> JT
Perry
Good point and for some reason it got me thinking and that can be
dangerous.
John Wayne
"Patrick T." wrote:
> The thing that turns me off to the whole issue of My Lai is who shall
> sit in judgement.
We. Us. Each one of us. All should judge. That is our responsibility.
My God, why do you hesitate. How else can we stop the shit.
Frankly, the image I have right now is of you watching atrocities
happening,
saying "it's not my place to judge". It IS your place to judge. Make
no
mistake about it.
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Charley Walker
"Ted Gittinger" <te...@jump.net> wrote in message
news:8hhjcs$q1k$1...@news.jump.net...
>
> John Wayne wrote in message <393B80C3...@pilgrims.com>...
> >
> >Angus McPuffin wrote:
> >> Even the name, "me lie", seems to taunt us.
> >
> >That's because you DO lie. You attempt to hold up My Lai as the
> >only atrocity committed by the U.S. during the entire 18 years that
> >the U.S. military was in Vietnam. Read FAQs 2.12, 2.13, 2.16, 2.14
> >
> Now, now Mr. Coleman. If you were not such a mendacious, salacious,
> ubiquitous, scumsucking, malodorous, noisome, inconsequential,
> pusillanimous, drivelling, misbegotten, spavined, fly-blown, foundered,
> slavering, rabid, rancid, grasping, son of a mangy she-camel, you
> undoubtedly would not say such unkind things.
>
> But as it is. . . . . .
>
Lawdy, I do love a person who knows how to structure a sentence to convey
the intricacies of meaning.
L.B. Jones
<te...@jump.net> wrote:
>
>John Wayne wrote in message <393B80C3...@pilgrims.com>...
>>
>>Angus McPuffin wrote:
>>> Even the name, "me lie", seems to taunt us.
>>
>>That's because you DO lie. You attempt to hold up My Lai as
the
>>only atrocity committed by the U.S. during the entire 18 years
that
>>the U.S. military was in Vietnam. Read FAQs 2.12, 2.13, 2.16,
2.14
>>
>Now, now Mr. Coleman. If you were not such a mendacious,
salacious,
>ubiquitous, scumsucking, malodorous, noisome, inconsequential,
>pusillanimous, drivelling, misbegotten, spavined, fly-blown,
foundered,
>slavering, rabid, rancid, grasping, son of a mangy she-camel,
you
>undoubtedly would not say such unkind things.
>
>But as it is. . . . . .
Damn, Ted... I wish that you'd just say what you really mean.
Ted Gittinger
L.B. Jones wrote in message <.
>
>Damn, Ted... I wish that you'd just say what you really mean.
>
>Jones
As you wish:
piss off.
JJGoold
they would leave this one alone though!
> I was watching CNN cold war special last night it was about
> Afghanistan and the Russians who fought there. Wonder why
L.B. Jones
<te...@jump.net> wrote:
>piss off.
It's OK to express your feelings, Ted; war heros have feelings
too, you know.
But I still care about you.
Jones
Patrick T.
wrote:
Dino,
I have let you slide for a long, long time for two reasons. I believe
you were in combat and so give you the respect that is due. The other
is, I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person.
You tell the story of your big events at Hue, every Marine in this
newsgroup laughs at your ass because we know you are lying, we chose
to stay out of it, figuring if you wanted to tell war stories to those
who don't know squat about Hue, go for it and they can rag tag you out
as they see fit.
Me, I am the real fucking deal from the git go, I was a My Lai, I was
also at hundreds of other locations throughout I Corps as a grunt. I
do not need to explain to you in all your persona's jack shit!
You do not have the history, the mental capacity, nor a library big
enough in your part of the world to judge me. So just in case you
didn't or don't get the message, FOAD. Go back to scrubbing your
floors at the school and telling everyone your lying ass doggie war
stories.
jerk.
Edward Combs Jr.
being...in the military one can only rat on troops of lower rank! Ratting
up-wards only gets you in trouble. If you think the people on this NG want
"documentation" that is nothing to what must be done to rat up-wards. It
takes MORE that two people AND even if you win your name is mudd for the
rest of your short career.
................................
"John Wayne" <jwa...@pilgrims.com> wrote in message
news:393C6E1A...@PILGRIMS.COM...
Edward Combs Jr.
can...only you!
......................................................news:dgp2ks0o5o3atd0uk...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 6 Jun 2000 03:20:58 GMT, John Wayne <jwa...@pilgrims.com>
> wrote:
>
> Dino,
> I have let you slide for a long, long time for two reasons. I believe
> you were in combat and so give you the respect that is due. The other
> is, I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person.
>
> You tell the story of your big events at Hue, every Marine in this
> newsgroup laughs at your ass because we know you are lying, we chose
> to stay out of it, figuring if you wanted to tell war stories to those
> who don't know squat about Hue, go for it and they can rag tag you out
> as they see fit.
>
> Me, I am the real fucking deal from the git go, I was a My Lai, I was
> also at hundreds of other locations throughout I Corps as a grunt. I
> do not need to explain to you in all your persona's jack shit!
>
> You do not have the history, the mental capacity, nor a library big
> enough in your part of the world to judge me. So just in case you
> didn't or don't get the message, FOAD. Go back to scrubbing your
> floors at the school and telling everyone your lying ass doggie war
> stories.
>
> jerk.
> >
> >
Jeffrey Laventure
Any idea why the treatment of POWs is addressed in the Geneva Conventions? Ever
wonder, if you were captured, and the captors had your mindset. Wartime is no
excuse for murder
> ..................................................
> "Herb F." <Be...@webtv.net> wrote in message
> news:26638-39...@storefull-121.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
> > You know Ed, you hit on some interesting point. I never get involved in
> > these dicussions because I believe they are useless and just stuff the
> > trolls like to talk about to pass the time and piss us off.
> >
> > I am going to make one comment now and I believed it then and I believe
> > it now. No Viet Cong was worth the life of one American. I do not mean
> > this in a racist way. the point I am making is that if I have a
> > Vietnamese that can give me information that might save American troops
> > from an ambush, I believe that it is my duty to get that information. To
> > have a squad taken out by a boobytrap when I have the man who set that
> > boobytrap is almost a criminal act on my part. That is all I have to
> > say. You can read what you want into that comment.
> >
> >