Laos - Chavane (Operation Tailwind)
George Moore
probably no longer work. The best new info is on
http://www.macvsog.org/tailwind.htm
Any current travel news from the area is highly encouraged
===================================
Laos - Chavane (Operation Tailwind)
George Moore
Nephew of a Zoomie, '52 - '72
Korea, Alaska, Vietnam
162, "TET", Da Nang AFB, '67 - '68
"Gunfighters", USAF 366th Tactical Fighter Wing
See the site that the new kids have up on
http://www.mountainhome.af.mil
In June of 1998, a story appeared in the United States on the CNN
network about a once upon a time American operation in southern Laos.
Destination Chavane (Chavan in English), otherwise known as Operation
Tailwind. It happened during the war in Vietnam, in particular on
September 11, 1970. The CNN story was on
http://www.cnn.com/US/9806/07/valley.of.death
It has been retracted now. For details, see
http://www.cnn.com/US/9807/02/tailwind.johnson
A quick Internet search on the word "Chavane" or "Chavan" revealed
that the Internet is not the end all of end all where it is a question
of reference material. On the contrary! Only two sites which offer
historical background on Chavane appeared, and neither talked about
the once upon a time French construction of an airport or clearly
described the exact location of Chavane. But the resultant sites are
interesting to read nonetheless, because they remind readers that
Chavane was, during the war in Vietnam, in the very center of the Ho
Chi Minh Trail. To review these documents, see
http://www.state.gov/www/about_state/history/Vol_xxviii/111_130.html
and/or
http://www.state.gov/www/about_state/history/Vol_xxviii/131_150.html
The CNN story created protest in the ranks of the American soldiers
who were there at the time. No one denies that the raid took place,
but two angles about the story raised great protest: 1) that sarin
gas was used and 2) that it was used to kill American soldiers who had
supposedly defected from American ranks during the war. Neither angle
was substantiated. For an excellent review of this protest, see
http://www.rjsmith.com/sog-raid.html
For further background, see
http://www.seas.gwu.edu/nsarchive/tailwind/index.html
The Vietnamese government view was on
http://home.vnn.vn/english/news/special_news/nerve_gas10.html
The present Lao government does not seem to have been consulted about
the story. A US Air Force review from July of 1998 is on
http://www.defenselink.mil/pubs/tailwind_af.html.
The comments of a US official presently working on the POW/MIA issue
were also interesting. The following information is from the Internet
newsgroup alt.war.vietnam, June 24, 1998:
Chavan is located about 78 kilometers (roughly 50 miles)
west-northwest of the old Dak Pek Special Forces Camp, and about 85
kilometers (roughly 54 miles) northwest of the point where the
Vietnam, Lao, and Cambodian borders join. Chavan is approximately
mid-way between the Bolovens Plateau (to the west) and the Vietnam-Lao
border to the east. (See coordinates and historical overview below.)
Operation Tailwind took place about 20 kilometers (approximately 13
miles) southeast of Chavan, along the infiltration corridor between
Chavan and the old Dak Pek Special Forces Camp.
A quick computer-assisted search yielded nine incidents, between 30
May 1968 and 23 March 1973, in which a total of 12 Americans became
missing within an approximate 20 kilometer radius of the location
where Operation Tailwind took place. An informal review of records
suggests all 12 men died at the time of loss.
Between January 1991 and December 1995, American specialists from the
Pacific Command's (PACOM) Joint Casualty Resolution Center (JCRC) and
its successor, the Joint Task Force-Full Accounting (JTF-FA), have
conducted at least two on-site investigations of each of the nine
incidents - - and three on-site investigations of three of the
incidents. The JTF-FA might have conducted additional investigations
in this region subsequent to December 1995.
The JCRC and JTF-FA specialists were searching for information about
the American servicemen and aircraft that were lost in this area. They
were not searching for information about alleged use of lethal
chemicals during the war.
In fairness, we need to note that most Lao civilians left the
immediate vicinity of People's Army of Vietnam installations and
transportation corridors along the HCM trail during the war to avoid
American and Royal Lao air strikes and ground forces. Nevertheless,
local residents the American specialists interviewed during their
investigations knew of several aircraft crash sites; however, they
made no mention of any wartime incidents involving lethal gas.
Also, today I discussed wartime operations in this region with a
former Royal Lao Army (RLA) general who commanded RLA forces in this
region for much of the war. He recalled that American special forces
conducted a company-size raid into this region in about September 1970
to draw PAVN forces away from RLA forces operating in this region. He
recalled that the commander of one of his guerilla companies in the
area reported that about 15 Americans were wounded during the
operation. Although he did not know the name of the operation, he has
a reasonably accurate recollection of Operation Tailwind. He also said
his trail watch teams, intelligence teams, and reconnaissance teams
operated in this region for years. He said he knew that US forces used
defoliants to deny PAVN concealment along some stretches of the HCM
trail; however, he never once received any hint that American forces
ever employed lethal chemicals in the region. He said that in his
opinion the CNN/TIME allegations are untrue.
Coordinates and historical overview. Chavan is located in the vicinity
of geographic coordinates 15 20'00"N 107 03'00"E, UTM grid coordinates
48PYB217972. US Map Sheet 6439, Series L607, scale 1:100,000. Chavan
is the location of an old airstrip that dates from the French era. It
also was the wartime location of PAVN Group 559's Commo-Liaison
Station T-63. Station T-63 was located at the boundary between
Military Station 35's (Binh Tram/BT 35) area of operations (to the
north of T-63) and BT 36's area of operations (to the south of T-63).
Chavan was the junction on the HCM Trail's main north-south corridor
(PAVN Route 128) at which men and material destined for B.1 Front [MR
5] were diverted to the east along PAVN Route B46 to BT 44's area of
responsibility. The route east from Cha Van terminated at Kham Duc in
southwestern Quang Nam-Da Nang Province, SVN. Other traffic passing
through Chavan continued Southeast to B.3 Front headquarters near the
tri-border point, or south toward B.2 Front near the border between
northern Tay Ninh Province, Vietnam and Cambodia. One PAVN account
noted that in August 1964 the 279th and 98th Engineer Regiments were
assigned to Group 559 to "open a motor route from Ban Dong [on Highway
9, west of Khe Sanh], through Muong Nong, to Bac (a distance of about
105 km) in the eastern provinces of Laos", and to "open a new cargo
bicycle route from Bac to Cha Van, Dak To, and Dak Chung to link up
with Region 5's supply routes". Ref.: Phu luc so 1, t. 408-423, Van
Tai Quan Su Chien Luoc Tren Duong Ho Chi Minh Trong Khang Chien Chong
My (tai ban lan 1 co chinh ly bo sung) [Appendix no. 1, pp. 408-423,
Strategic Military Transportation on the Ho Chi Minh Trail During the
Resistance Against the Americans (1st reprinting with revisions and
additions)], Tong Cuc Hau Can [PAVN General Directorate for Rear
Services], Hanoi, 1988. [Ref also, PAVN Map Sheet 6439 UTM, scale
1:100,000 printed in 1982 by the PAVN General Staff Directorate's
Mapping Department.]
I hope the above information proves helpful.
Regards, Robert J. Destatte (article stored by permission of the
author. Thanks)
Most interesting for students and tourists is the idea to visit
today's Chavane, in southern Laos, in person. Are there any old timers
in Chavane who remember the war? What does Chavane look like today? A
map is on http://www.nexus.net/~911gfx/vietnam/maps/nd48-04/nd48_04f.jpg
It was uploaded by another Veteran who was there at the time. Maybe
one of today's students or foreign tourists in southern Laos can pay a
visit to Chavane and upload a trip report and a photograph?
For an idea about the Joint Task Force - Full Accounting teams now
present on the Cambodian side of the border with Vietnam, see a Phnom
Penh Post article below, from March of 1998. Eventually, another
reader may profile their efforts on the Lao side of the border. If a
foreign tourist wants to visit one of these places today, just ask
around locally about the presence of a Joint Task Force - Full
Accounting team. These teams seem to be very up to date on local
travel conditions.
Finding the secrets lost down No Name Creek
by Michael Hayes
NO NAME CREEK - The original operation on March 21, 1970 in the remote
jungles of Ratanakiri was top secret. The six-man American Special
Forces team, including Montagnard comrades-in-arms, had been ferried
in from Vietnam and dropped off by helicopter on a reconnaissance
mission that didn't exist "officially". The highly-trained commandos,
who carried no US-made equipment and bore no military insignia, were
part of a clandestine US operation obliquely named the "Studies and
Observations Group", or "SOG" for short.
Set up back in 1964 at the request of then-US Secretary of Defense
Robert McNamara, SOG would develop, according to "SOG: The Secret Wars
of America's Commandos in Vietnam", by John Plaster, into "the largest
covert military unit since World War II's OSS".
The Americans were desperate for on-the-ground intelligence as Hanoi
was pouring men and material down through Laos and Cambodia into South
Vietnam, along an elaborate network of jungle tracks. Plaster writes
that by 1967 "NVA forces in Laos and Cambodia had climbed above
100,000 with 40,000 of them detailed as Ho Chi Minh Trail security;
another 100,000 NVA passed down the Trail that year en route to South
Vietnam".
With SOG fielding about 40 Americans at any one time in Laos and
Cambodia, it was their job "to penetrate enemy redoubts to wiretap,
ambush, kidnap, mine and survey the North Vietnamese". The task was a
dangerous one. SOG casualties ran at over 50 percent and many of the
Green Berets never made it home. The team in Ratanakiri spent three
days in the dense jungle just a few kilometers from the Lao border,
evading North Vietnamese trackers and collecting what information they
could in an area that was teeming with NVA troops.
By the time they reached the point where they were to be picked up,
they'd taken two casualties. A Huey UH1H helicopter hovered while the
weary men scrambled aboard. It rose to about 100 feet and then was hit
by an RPG round that blew it apart, the chopper crashing to the ground
in a ball of flames. Seven Americans were lost.
Fast forward almost three decades. The "Vietnam War" is ancient
history for most, but the Americans still want to bring their boys
home. Dr. C.E. "Hoss" Moore stands knee-deep in the muck of the creek
he calls "No Name" near the Lao border, surveying the wreckage of the
Huey UH1H. He's one of eight Americans and an 80-man Cambodian crew
that spent four weeks recently looking for remains of the seven GIs
lost back in 1970.
The late-fortyish, barrel-chested Kansan didn't serve in the Vietnam
War, having been exempted by a hearing defect. Hoss now feels like
he's "doing his bit" to help close the final chapter of the war
effort.
The nearest Cambodian village is about 30 kms away, perhaps seven days
walk on foot through some of the Kingdom's densest, seemingly pristine
jungle, and it's hard to imagine that war has ever touched this quiet
land, now designated a National Park where tigers, wild elephants and
sun bears are said to roam freely.
"Inside the grid, Hoss is King", says US Army Capt Matt Fuhrer of the
team's anthropologist, who decides where and how deep to dig, and who
may have to testify in court years down the road if someone contests
the US military's efforts. On paper the concept is simple: identify a
sight where it's believed there are remains of Americans lost during
the war, dig it up and sift through the dirt.
In reality the work is painstaking and tedious. "Everyone thinks we
come out and dig up femurs", says Fuhrer, reflecting on the fact that
the team would be lucky if they found a few charred bone fragments to
take back to a lab in Hawaii for exhaustive examination.
The effort in Ratanakiri was particularly complicated and involved the
cooperation of the Vietnamese, Cambodians and the Americans. The
Americans knew about the crash but were unsure of its exact location.
An initial tip came from an 80-year old man who had hunted in the
region and remembered seeing the helicopter wreckage.
In March 1997, a joint Cambodian-Vietnamese team entered the Dragon's
Tail from the Vietnamese border on foot. After a seven-day trek,
including four on make-shift rafts, the hunter led them directly to
the crash site. "One of our team members was crying", said RCAF Col.
Korm Sokhon, who took part in the mini-expedition and remembers his
crew wondering if the old man was leading them on a wild goose chase.
With the site identified, a landing zone was carved out of the nearby
jungle a year later so that the recovery operation could begin in
earnest in mid-January. The Americans set up shop in Ban Lung, hired
the work crews and security forces, and contracted the services of Lao
West Coast Aviation to ferry people by helicopter to and from the
remote dig area. At the end of the day, remains were discovered, as
they were at another recovery operation at an F4 Phantom jet crash
site outside of Ban Lung. However, US officials are reluctant to
speculate on any details of who may or may not be identified. That
process may take several more years back in the States.
As for the political debate surrounding the POW/MIA quest and the
money being spent on the effort, the boys in the field are happy to
let others wrestle with it. Quipped Capt. Fuhrer: "We leave all that
to echelons above reality".
The article just above is from the English language Phnom Penh Post,
Volume 7, Number 4, February 27 - March 13, 1998. This back issue
article is not on their web site, but see their site anyway on
A site which offers more background on the Phnom Penh Post story just
above was on
http://www.specialoperations.com/MACVSOG/tales_from_sog/Killing_Zone/Default.html
Today, see http://www.macvsog.org/tailwind.htm
For a review of local conditions in these areas today, see
http://www.oneworld.org/globalwitness/reports/GoingPlaces/mr1.htm
Updated trip reports from the area are highly encouraged. For links,
see
JASON A. KAATZ
during the war was an incident in 1965 where a communist sapper team
attacked an American unit killing 45 American soldiers with a nerve agent.
There was another such incident during the war years that was once
documented by a retired Army Major living in Texas. However, the first
incident (1965) was investigated by a Congressman. A small article appeared
in the New York Times describing the incident which did not become front
page news so little was paid attention to it. However, in the period
1975-85 I was involved in an investigation which looked at North Vietnam's
CBW R&D program. The program headed by Dr. Thach which was carried out under
the guise of academic research underground in a Pagoda in the Hanoi area the
details of which are outlined in a Congressional Report in the 1970 period.
A retired USMC Colonel and former Brigade CO in Vietnam and myself had take
n a hard look at the issue because of the rather large number of cases of
returning VN Vets who had developed systemic lupus - about 500 men, mostly
Marines had been exposed to what was suspected as a highly lethal agent that
they might have come in contact with while engaging enemy forces.
During the same period was asked to come to Washington and briefed the USAF
Surgeon General's Chief Epidemologist and the Chief of Preventive Medicine
of the Army. Of concern at the time were the statements of several Soviet
scientists who had defected to the U.S. and the CIA was a;also investigating
and had contracted a university to translate Soviet medical and scientific
journals. At the time I was investigating the death of several VN Veterans
and a pattern of health conditions which clearly pointed to enemy activity.
Several Division chemical officers had also reported contamination
situations that had been detected in a 101AB compound that is more likely
related to the death of an former Army NCO ASA Det Supervisor. Thus, the
Army Surgeon General's office was briefed as well about some of these
incidents. One of the problems at the time was the Agent Orange issue in
the press clouded enemy CBW issues.
Also learned was the fact that the Red Chinese had supplied North Vietnam
with modern at the time chemical masks for use by ground NVA troops in South
Vietnam and Marine Colonel had uncovered an underground enemy hospital
equipped with East German equipment ready to receive chemical casualties --
it was suspected that some kind of chemical was used by the enemy against
U.S. forces personnel and more than likely they probably had hoped to
capture some men to determine how effective the chemical or biological agent
was.
To my knowledge the U.S. never used any chemical agent against the enemy
other than CS (Tear Gas) to get them out of the tunnels. I know of no
incident where the U.S. used nerve agents against the enemy and it seems to
me that the story was totally fabricated by some CNN people who were
grandstanding.
The fate of the 45 American soldiers killed in action was kept under raps -
many believe because of Henry Kissinger and some of the low life's on his
staff around the close of the conflict. Kissinger had invited a Soviet
agent to the White House who entered the U.S. with a Cuban passport. That
individual had been recruited by the Soviets in 1934. During the Korean war
he had unleashed a propaganda campaign against the U.S. that alleged use of
biological against North Korea which absolute crap. During Vietnam he
showed up in Hanoi, a close friend of Dr. Thach he was also an advisor to Ho
Chi Minh. He was a propaganda expert for the Soviets, helped the Soviets,
Chinese and North Koreans interrogate American pilots and allied soldiers
during the Korean war.
During the Vietnam war Dr. Thach admitted the existence of a CBW R & D
program in North Vietnam. During the Vietnam war the Soviets and East
European allies were involved in a highly aggressive effort to develop
lethal chemical and biological agents. The only one chemical and biological
agents known to have been used by the Soviets and Vietnamese in Vietnam were
used against Mountainard villages. Some spraying by captured American
helicopters and in one instance we traced a shipment of Soviet chemical
spraying helicopters that were shipped to Japan and beyond.
A number of people outraged with Henry Kissinger around 1975-80 period was
the Chief of CI Counterintelligence who openly accused him of working for
the Soviets. Much of the data relating to North Vietnam's CBW program is
hidden away in obscure Congressional and Senate Reports in committees which
no longer exist.
North Vietnam was also a major importer of chemical precursors as well as
herbicides knowingly contaminated with dioxins. Something the USAF cited
openly cited in early years. North Vietnam a few years ago accused the
Chinese of selling them contaminated agro chemicals (herbicides) that
contained lethal levels of dioxin in a formal Ministry of Information
Release. However, it is much easier to shake down the U.S. Government under
the guise that Agent Orange caused all the problems. About one year ago a
retired R/Adm. and DIA Chief testified to the extent of North Vietnam's
involvement in developing CBW agents. At least two Malaria outbreaks in
South Vietnam and Cambodia can be contributed to out right negligence on the
part of the North Vietnam who brought down the Ho Chi Minh trail a strain
that was nonendemic in South Vietnam that killed 30,000 South Vietnamese and
had its impact on a number of SF camps as well in 1965.
So serious was the outbreak in Vietnam that a SF AB Epidemiological Teams
was dispatched into the field in Vietnam to track the outbreak. If my
recollection is correct the OPRS of the Team remain classified. However, 13
years having passed since the close of the war they are probably available
today. There are also articles published since the 1960 period in the
Journal of Military Medicine that describe several outbreaks in Vietnam and
the results of their study.
It is also common knowledge that the Soviet KGB had control over a U.S.
based Vietnam veterans organization -- and even appointed the principal
associate of a KGB operator in the U.S. as an advisor to the group and
listed the person on their letter head. It enabled them to use the Agent
Orange issue for propaganda purposes and kept attention off the growing
threat of Soviet CBW R & D in the field of WMD for years. Thus, hardly any
focus was to be drawn to the attention of the American people that the North
Vietnamese had developed and made use of chemical and biological agents in
South Vietnam, and Laos.
----------------------------
"George Moore" <rect...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b217d9bd.03022...@posting.google.com...
Nigel Brooks 盒偃悟
news:OQ59a.66517$ma2.18...@twister.nyc.rr.com...
> George: to my knowledge the only chemical war incident that took place
> during the war was an incident in 1965 where a communist sapper team
> attacked an American unit killing 45 American soldiers with a nerve agent.
> There was another such incident during the war years that was once
> documented by a retired Army Major living in Texas. However, the first
> incident (1965) was investigated by a Congressman.
snip
> The fate of the 45 American soldiers killed in action was kept under
raps -
> many believe because of Henry Kissinger and some of the low life's on his
> staff around the close of the conflict.
Jason:
Do you have a reference for this allegation?
Where did the incident take place, and during what time frame.
The casualty database lists 1864 personnel who lost their lives in 1965
Why would the incident be "kept under wraps"? It seems to me that such a
violation of the Geneva Conventions would be trumpeted loudly by the USA due
to its propaganda value.
Nigel Brooks
moresicofit
SOG worked in all Wars, but that 69th Armor is
just Ridicules about Burma. No one is Recruited
in that manner. It takes 6 months to get a (ts)
Clearance. People in ties and jackets walk
and talk to everyone who ever heard of you
in your neighborhood.
The Marine Crews are told to sign the
standard papers and that's just due to
mission requirements and a very small
need to know. They 'may' of had 4 sided
photos wearing only underpants and finger
printed. That's only for ID of bodies.
Most Counties will never be known its
proper and it should remain so.
The Burma story is a total fabrication.
' Rays Page' has a need to point out
how wrong he is.
Some Tail Wind suits will come next year.
Its not over yet.
"JASON A. KAATZ" <jka...@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message news:OQ59a.66517$ma2.18...@twister.nyc.rr.com...
moresicofit
"Nigel Brooks ²°°³®©" <nbr...@msn.com> wrote in message news:b434hk$1r5vke$1...@ID-74999.news.dfncis.de...
> "JASON A. KAATZ" <jka...@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:OQ59a.66517$ma2.18...@twister.nyc.rr.com...
>
>
> Where did the incident take place, and during what time frame.
> The casualty database lists 1864 personnel who lost their lives in 1965
> Why would the incident be "kept under wraps"? It seems to me that such a
> violation of the Geneva Conventions would be trumpeted loudly by the USA due
> to its propaganda value.
>
> Nigel Brooks
>
JASON A. KAATZ
media at the time was focused on the antiwar activity. As for the location
of the incident - to my recollection the unit that was hit was an Engineer
unit in what became the 4th Div area of operation. I get the opinion that
there was a leak to the press coming out of the pentagon and congress at the
time. However, the article appeared in the New York Times in 1965. I have
a copy of the article stored in some file boxes and it will take some effort
to get may hands on it. In a few days I will try to get you the exact text
of the article. However, one of the survivors of the incident had returned
to the U.S. and walked into his Congressmen's office to raise hell about the
incident. About five or ten years ago I spoke to Congressmen Tenser about
the issue. He had retired and was leading an investigation of sorts. He
would later inform me that his personal files on the issues which were
donated to a University after he retired from Congress disappeared. About
a year or so after that I learned that he had died. Unless the Pentagon is
willing to provide more information on the incident it is doubtful in my
opinion that we will ever learn exactly what the men died from.
I also learned that Dr. Thach, who headed North Vietnam's CBW R & D Program
is alleged to have died some years back. I am sure that if you consult the
New York Times Index for the year 1965 and 1966 you will fined an
appropriate reference citation. Again, as soon as I get at the folder or
press clippings for that period of time I will provide you with the exact
context on such. It was single column, four or five inches long.
At the time I made the inquiry to the Congressmen concerned he could not
recall who the soldier was who walked into his office. However, I would
suspect that he had been a member of an Army Engineer Company.
---------------------
----------------
"Nigel Brooks 盒偃悟" <nbr...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:b434hk$1r5vke$1...@ID-74999.news.dfncis.de...
Slowboy
JASON A. KAATZ wrote:
> I am sorry to say Nigel the incident went on deaf ears because the press and
> media at the time was focused on the antiwar activity.
What antiwar activity in '65? I guess I didn't hear about it.
Slowboy