Gettysburg National Military Park funding in crisis
Otis Willie
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05074/471595.stm
{EXCERPT} Pittsburgh Post Gazette, PA - 15 hours ago GETTYSBURG --
Gettysburg National Military Park must turn away school groups
requesting tours and has eliminated 10 full-time jobs in the last few
years......
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William G. Davis
WGD
"Otis Willie" <americanw...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:b5ne31p2bncgvdbuo...@4ax.com...
Robert Willett
away school groups" but it did have a statement from the park management
concerning the shortfall in funds necessary to maintain the park. It also
specifically mentioned the loss of 10 employee positions over the past
several years.
Another specific mention was the deterioration of cannon wheels caused by
dampness in an inadequate storage facility where they awaited restoration
delayed by lack of funds. The storage facility was said to have doors that
did not close properly.
Although Gettysburg Park receives thousands of hours of volunteer help each
year, it like almost all of the nations national parks is suffering form
delayed maintenance due to inadequate budgets and the diversion of funds to
poorly attended pork barrel projects such as the national Railroad museum.
There is a real need for proper funding.
snip
William G. Davis
"Robert Willett" <rbwi...@triad.rr.com> wrote in message
news:YWj_d.39086$_i3.1...@twister.southeast.rr.com...
> The Pittsburg news article cited did not have information about "turning
> away school groups" but it did have a statement from the park management
> concerning the shortfall in funds necessary to maintain the park. It also
> specifically mentioned the loss of 10 employee positions over the past
> several years.
>
No one gets turned away, Otis Willie is a dishonest horse's ass for posting
that crap and trying to sensationalize the news. The PPG reporter oughtt to
sue him.
The fact is, the operating budget is indeed slashed beyond to the bone, and
volunteers produce the equivilant of 40 full time employees to both sites
(GBNMP, and Eisenhower Presidential Site) every year.
> Another specific mention was the deterioration of cannon wheels caused by
> dampness in an inadequate storage facility where they awaited restoration
> delayed by lack of funds. The storage facility was said to have doors
> that
> did not close properly.
Everything is deteriorating. The rumors, however, paint a distorted
picture.
The fact is the Park Announced yesterday that new ground will be broken for
the new Visitor's center in June of this year. That means the project
should be finished by spring of 2007. That's up to $118 million, but it
will house the archives, and all the relics.
>
> Although Gettysburg Park receives thousands of hours of volunteer help
> each
> year, it like almost all of the nations national parks is suffering form
> delayed maintenance due to inadequate budgets and the diversion of funds
> to
> poorly attended pork barrel projects such as the national Railroad museum.
> There is a real need for proper funding.
The NPS still has to explain the $4 million outhouse at Delaware Water Gap.
The cannons will be fine, volunteers are assisting with the work of
restoring them, but it is slow because they require supervision and training
in what they are doing. The cannons on Benner's Hill were gone for almost a
year and a half. The tubes themselves were missing from the carriages for
another four months.
WGD
>
>
>
> snip
>
>
roto...@mailcity.com
> This is totally bogus.
There is a lot of Gettysburg park bogosity floating around, by the way.
The Willie link expired but here's a story nearly on-topic:
http://www.pennlive.com/news/patriotnews/index.ssf?/base/news/1110882090212770.xml
I posted some comments on the linked story (above) here:
http://cwbn.blogspot.com/2005/03/teetertottering-at-gettysburg.html
The gist of the matter is that the NPS is $49 million short (est.) in
the maintenance kitty while a *private association* is ginning up
megamillions to build a new visitor center/museum. The idea: attract
more visitors.
But Gettysburg visitors, in their millions, seem not to be paying their
own freight. How many millions more are needed before the barn gets
painted?
And whose money gets spent tearing down the Cyclorama in 2007?
You would think that this could be one of the crown jewels in the Park
Service collection. But it is a warning to any state trying to put
their battlefield land under the Feds.
I don't know what to make of the linked story; the situation seems so
out-of-control there seem to be no easy answers.
I assume the Willie story was a painful and dramatic cry for financial
help.
- Dimitri
http://cwbn.blogspot.com
William G. Davis
<roto...@mailcity.com> wrote in message
news:1111179443.6...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
You remember that old saw about the word "assume" don't you Dimitri?
Here is the story in brief:
They are short of day-to-day money. They are making up for that with the
help of volunteers.
No one, <repeat> No one, will ever be turned away. In the first place, they
have no way of doing that. The park is criss-crossed with public roads and
they do not have the authority to close those roads.
In spite of all the lack of funds, the work gets done. Go to the binaries
group where I will shortly post a series of photos taken this week of the
work being done on the south end of the battlefield clearing trees and
re-establishing the battlefield in its 1863 condition (plus monuments and
markers).
The private organization raising the funds for the new VC has passed the
halfway mark in funding, therefore the groundbreaking will occur in June.
That money is not coming out of the nomal maintenance budget, nor is the
normal maintenance budget being cut because of the new VC.
Now, if you have concerns about Gettysburg, or any other NPS site in trouble
because of funding cuts, call your congressman, but please don't go
spreading the lies that Otis Willie posts here. They aren't true. And
things are not as bad as they are made out to be.
Feel free to contact me at any time by email to get the straight story on
GBNMP, or the EPS.
WGD
William G. Davis
>> This is totally bogus.
>
> There is a lot of Gettysburg park bogosity floating around, by the way.
>
> The Willie link expired but here's a story nearly on-topic:
> http://www.pennlive.com/news/patriotnews/index.ssf?/base/news/1110882090212770.xml
>
> I posted some comments on the linked story (above) here:
> http://cwbn.blogspot.com/2005/03/teetertottering-at-gettysburg.html
Center.
For years people have been decrying the conditions under which the
relics and archives are kept in the current visitor's center. The
current VC is a hodgepodge of add ons to the original Rosensteel home,
which was doneted, complete with its collection of artifacts and
documents from the battle, to the NPS in the early 1960s.
The building is old, sees the traffic from millions of visitors every
year, and leaks like a seive. If those artifacts and archives are to
be saved, they need a new home. Hence the new visitor's center. That
need, along with the five year plan to restore much of the battlefield
to its original condition allowed the NPS to make the plans for the new
visitor's center big enough to house the collections, administrative
offices, Cyclorama painting, museum, bookstore, cafeteria, and electric
map. It also allowed them to get the current building and its
neighbor, the Cyclorama center (that hasn't worked since right after it
opened), and remove them, and their parking lots from the area of
Zeigler's Grove, a very important area of the battle.
The new VC will go down in the hollow where the ponds were at the old
Fantasyland Amusement Park south of Hunt Avenue between Taneytown Road
and Baltimore avenue. A new entrance road will be cut off Baltimore
south Kinzie's knoll.
The new VC is NOT superfluous, Dimitri, and frankly, I resent your
characterization of it as such.
Blogs are nice, but not when you:
A. hgihlight negatives, and
B. don't check your facts to gain a full understanding of what is going
on.
In this case, a bit of both.
Please correct your blog, Dimitri.
>
> The gist of the matter is that the NPS is $49 million short (est.) in
> the maintenance kitty while a *private association* is ginning up
> megamillions to build a new visitor center/museum. The idea: attract
> more visitors.
>
> But Gettysburg visitors, in their millions, seem not to be paying
their
> own freight. How many millions more are needed before the barn gets
> painted?
Visitors are not charges one red cent to tour the battlefield on their
own, or to visit the museum. The NPS makes nothing off the visitors to
the park. They do generate some cash from the Bookstore concession.
No charge is made for parking.
Dimitri, you are spreading a very incorrect impression of things here
because you have not checked your facts.
>
> And whose money gets spent tearing down the Cyclorama in 2007?
The private organization's money, Dimitri. But who are you implying
has to pay?
Stop it, Dimitiri, you are verging onto dishonest ground.
WGD
snip of more disinformation.
roto...@mailcity.com
> I take very serious issue with what you wrote about the new Visitor's
> Center.
I questioned whether one needs one's friends to pay for building a new
center if park maintenance is running $49 million in the red as per
this article.
> For years people have been decrying the conditions under which the
> relics and archives are kept in the current visitor's center. The
> current VC is a hodgepodge of add ons to the original Rosensteel
home,
> which was doneted, complete with its collection of artifacts and
> documents from the battle, to the NPS in the early 1960s.
<more context snipped>
Good context.
> The new VC is NOT superfluous, Dimitri, and frankly, I resent your
> characterization of it as such.
Duly noted.
> Blogs are nice, but not when you:
> A. hgihlight negatives, and
> B. don't check your facts to gain a full understanding of what is
going
> on.
> In this case, a bit of both.
> Please correct your blog, Dimitri.
I may record your objections. Meanwhile, you should be reading my blog
every day so that that these incidents don't happen in the future.
> Visitors are not charges one red cent to tour the battlefield on
their
> own, or to visit the museum. The NPS makes nothing off the visitors
to
> the park. They do generate some cash from the Bookstore concession.
> No charge is made for parking.
Understood. But this is catastrophic largesse with a $49 million
deficit. If some rule prevents charging admission, shake these millions
down for more and larger donations. Hard - get in their freeloading
faces.
> Dimitri, you are spreading a very incorrect impression of things here
> because you have not checked your facts.
The facts come from my linked article (not Otis Willie's); the
conclusions are mine.
> > And whose money gets spent tearing down the Cyclorama in 2007?
> The private organization's money, Dimitri. But who are you implying
> has to pay?
I am asking why an organization $49 million in the hole is tearing down
(or getting its friends to pay for tearing down) the Cyclorama to build
a new center to attract even more (free) visitors. If the answer is
that the Cyclorama is preventing construction of the new center and
that the new center is needed to save deteriorating holdings - good;
but that does not deal with the core issue of priorities and
mismanagement.
> Stop it, Dimitiri, you are verging onto dishonest ground.
Take it easy. I asked for yours and others opinions and you have
obliged.
- Dimitri
http://cwbn.blogspot.com
William G. Davis
<roto...@mailcity.com> wrote in message
news:1111188044....@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> William G. Davis wrote:
>> I take very serious issue with what you wrote about the new Visitor's
>> Center.
>
> I questioned whether one needs one's friends to pay for building a new
> center if park maintenance is running $49 million in the red as per
> this article.
No, you called the new Visitor's Center superfluous. Where do you think
some of that maintenance occurs?
And that is not a group of friends, it is a non-profit organization put
together solely for the purpose of raising all the money for the new VC
WITHOUT TAPPING ANNUAL FUNDS FROM THE NPS BUDGET.
Its what you have not dug up in the way of background that makes what you
wwrote so dangerous, Dimitri. You did not do your homework.
As a result you are broadcasting incorrect information and giving a bad
impression of things surrounding the park about which you know very little.
There are descriptions for what you have done.
>
>> For years people have been decrying the conditions under which the
>> relics and archives are kept in the current visitor's center. The
>> current VC is a hodgepodge of add ons to the original Rosensteel
> home,
>> which was doneted, complete with its collection of artifacts and
>> documents from the battle, to the NPS in the early 1960s.
> <more context snipped>
>
> Good context.
>
>> The new VC is NOT superfluous, Dimitri, and frankly, I resent your
>> characterization of it as such.
>
> Duly noted.
>
>> Blogs are nice, but not when you:
>> A. hgihlight negatives, and
>> B. don't check your facts to gain a full understanding of what is
> going
>> on.
>> In this case, a bit of both.
>> Please correct your blog, Dimitri.
>
> I may record your objections. Meanwhile, you should be reading my blog
> every day so that that these incidents don't happen in the future.
Perhaps I will, but I do not presume to be an expert on all that you write
about, or even on much of it at all, but this is something to which I have
been very close for years, and of which I have a full working knowledge.
What I don't know about this plan, I can contact someone and get the correct
answer.
>
>> Visitors are not charges one red cent to tour the battlefield on
> their
>> own, or to visit the museum. The NPS makes nothing off the visitors
> to
>> the park. They do generate some cash from the Bookstore concession.
>> No charge is made for parking.
>
> Understood. But this is catastrophic largesse with a $49 million
> deficit.
You don't see it obviously. You decry the lack of funding for routine
maintenance. Yet you also claim the spending of privately raised funds to
build a new visitor's center as part of a plan to restore the battlefield to
pristine conditions is catastrophic largesse. I have already told you that
nothing is going undone in terms of routine maintenance. The only visible
effects are that it takes longer to get the artillery restored than it used
to, and they aren't mowing as far from the roads as they used to.
If some rule prevents charging admission, shake these millions
> down for more and larger donations. Hard - get in their freeloading
> faces.
>
Bullshit, Dimitri! You'd be the first to cry foul over that! That park
belongs to the people of this nation. The NPS is NOT allowed to ask for
donations.
>> Dimitri, you are spreading a very incorrect impression of things here
>> because you have not checked your facts.
>
> The facts come from my linked article (not Otis Willie's); the
> conclusions are mine.
And they are incorrect.
>
>> > And whose money gets spent tearing down the Cyclorama in 2007?
>> The private organization's money, Dimitri. But who are you implying
>> has to pay?
>
> I am asking why an organization $49 million in the hole is tearing down
> (or getting its friends to pay for tearing down) the Cyclorama to build
> a new center to attract even more (free) visitors. If the answer is
> that the Cyclorama is preventing construction of the new center and
> that the new center is needed to save deteriorating holdings - good;
> but that does not deal with the core issue of priorities and
> mismanagement.
See above, Dimitri.
>
>> Stop it, Dimitiri, you are verging onto dishonest ground.
>
> Take it easy. I asked for yours and others opinions and you have
> obliged.
No, you are defending something you did wrong. You should not have posted
your blog before checking this stuff out. You are cranked up in the wrong
direction on this. And it will get you in trouble because you do not
understand what you ARE saying and how wrong it is.
I offered you a place to check things out any time. The new VC is not being
built with budgetary money. It is privately raised funds. It has no effect
whatsoever on the daily operating budget of the park. If you have a problem
with the missing $49 million, then TELL CONGRESS! That's where your wrath
belongs.
WGD
>
> - Dimitri
> http://cwbn.blogspot.com
>
Robert Willett
snip
1. The new Visitors Center at Gettysburg fills several needs including
a. A much improved facility for displaying and conserving the many
artifacts and documents now in the hands of the NPS.
b. Easier and more comfortable access to the vistors center for the
public.
c. Allowing the area now occupied by the Visitors Center to be returned
to the condition existing at the time of the battle.
d. Achieving these significant improvement without expenditure of the
already strapped public funds available to NPS.
Apparently Dimitri is under the impression that the NPS could have required
these private funds to be made available to the NPS for ongoing operations
of the park. That is not the case. I guess he would rather see the NPS
turn down this opportunity and have neither a new Visitors Center nor
additional operating funds. When you deal with donors they control how
funds are used.
2. The new Cyclorama building.
a. Improved envirionmental controls that will result in better
preservation of the painting.
b. Improved presentation of the panorama including a better sound and
light system.
c. Again clearing the site of events during the battle by moving the
Cyclorama away from the current site.
d. Accomplishing this with private funds as opposed to limited public
funds.
3. Charging fees to visit the park As has been stated the very geographic
layout of the park makes it almost impossible to enforce a fee. I would
speculate it would cost as much to enforce the fee as can reasonably be
expected to be collected from fees. Of course the higher the fee the
greater the incentive to avoid it.
4. Putting pressure on contributors to contribute to the ongoing budget
rather than the projects of their interest. Well if Dimitri can figure out
how to do that I am sure every college and university academic who would
like to get their hands on the funds contributed by athletic supporters will
love to hear from him.
fredthebutcher
Sadly, the facts get in the way of the negative distortions that
Dimitri would rather post.
That's pretty sad. He still has it up.
The sad thing about a blog is that you can't respond to it directly.
fred
William G. Davis
>> This is totally bogus.
>
> There is a lot of Gettysburg park bogosity floating around, by the way.
William G. Davis
your total lack of responsibility for posting and then maintaining a blog
that is full of distortions and dishonesties, Dimitri.
Take the offensive, dishonest piece of trash down.
I'm sure it doesn't matter to you that you have now lost all credibility
with me, but I can guarantee you I am not the only one who feels this way.
Shame on you for your total lack of ethics.
WGD
<roto...@mailcity.com> wrote in message
news:1111179443.6...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Tim Reese
assertion that a new Gettysburg VC complex is self-evidently
"superfluous," his term. The dictionary instructs us that
"superfluous" means "more than is wanted, needed, or useful."
Were it simply a matter of NPS requirements to meet administrative
mandate, the obvious avenue for fixing any problems would be The
Congress. A public mandate requires public support and, in the case of
maintenance shortfall, public redress if indeed cited "maintenance"
is essential to meet a basic mandate. By definition Dimitri is quite
correct.
But let's cut to the chase. We're not talking about a new VC
strictly within agency requirements, are we. Rather it's a matter of
prostituting a government-run site for profit via commercial
partnership, this done under the aegis of public shortfall offset by
private economic involvement with open-ended entanglements.
Were any of us to run up a multi-million-dollar household maintenance
deficit we would be forced to put away the check book and behave
ourselves until we were again flush, maybe declare bankruptcy. Instead,
the NPS eagerly reaches for someone else's check book (with their
studied consent) and continues merrily making monumental plans without
getting its house in order first. Where's the accountability? The
image of fiddling while Rome burns comes to mind.
Put the rancor away and ask yourself a few hard questions. Can existing
Gettysburg facilities be adequately repaired within existing budget or
potential increases? Since its creation, has the park mandate been to
make accessible the battlefield itself, or to provide generationally
improved entertainment venues such as a Cyclorama, multiple gift shops,
theaters, electric maps, or infrequently used archives? Does
entertainment override education, carnival over classroom? Do
employment, salaries, and bureaucracy-building come into play? What
portion of the park budget do these embrace? How many staff members are
employed to what purposes, and have these been logically assigned
according to base Congressional mandate? Is a Congressional audit in
order here?
As a retired Federal employee and 30-year Gettysburg visitor (I live
nearby) well positioned to have observed quixotic policy changes
throughout that time frame, I'm forced to deeply question "facts"
routinely served up at the park and herein purported to portray what
Gettysburg is, what "millions of visitors" want, and what remedies
can best alleviate perceived "problems." This is the age of
spin-doctoring, sometimes of venomous name calling whereby real
common-sense issues are lost in purposeful rhetoric.
Is a new VC complex really "wanted, needed or useful"? By park
definition we must say NO to the last two adjectives. One will likely
say YES to the first, provided he has a stake. It's the battlefield,
not the profitable sand castles pop culture erects on it. Commercially
profiting from historical sites is intellectually dishonest and morally
bankrupt.
Robert Willett
"Tim Reese" <tjre...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1111349495....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
I disagree. What's wrong with a useful private profit making facility that
fills a public need.
Remember the current visitors center was for many years a private for profit
facility.
Robert Willett
> Two wrongs don't make a right. "Public need?" How euphemistic, a
> self-fulfilling prophesy by indeterminate authority.
That is asuming we accept that your two wrongs are wrongs which I don't.
>
> The park was created by surviving veterans solely for access and
> appreciation, nothing more. All else amounts to latter-day
> entertainment enhancement from which the visiting public derives no
> direct benefit unless that is the specific target. That's why far
> more people consider a visit to the VC more fundamental than traversing
> the battlefield itself. Eliminate that and you return to purpose-driven
> visitation alone, its seminal raison d'etre. History is remote from a
> bus window, though admittedly convenient and comfortable, preferably
> with a shopping bag full of gift shop goodies. There's a metaphor for
> you.
>
While a few like you might understand the battle without visiting the VC
most who go there need the VC to appreciate what they are seeing. I think
this is the flaw of your view. Kind of like the canoe fans in my area who
want to stiop a park on the New River because it will spoil their semi
private access to that stretch of the river.
> For years the battlefield struggled to rise above the town carnival.
> Now it eagerly matches it. But perhaps you are right. Maybe this is
> precisely the "public need." Tourism is, after all, dollar-driven
> and the customer is always right. But let the fox into the hen house
> and all you'll get is chicken in every pot. Any ideal, however sacred,
> is negotiable these days I suppose.
>
> Choose. My ancestors pre-ordained my choice. I'm compelled to eshewe
> tourism in deference to battlefield sanctity and decorum. It's all a
> matter of respect, however out of vogue that may be. What would Hancock
> say?
>
Let's see tourism unless conducted by purists is wrong. Sorry but that
comes across as very elitist. If they don't see it my way they must be
wrong.
Bruce Martin
Robert Willett wrote:
Hey Bob- congrats on State making the Sweet Sixteen.
dro...@gmail.com
You and Davis are correct: it is not a crazy idea. But it is
superfluous and with a $49 million deficit, it looks foolish from a lot
of angles.
Your fee point is interesting. And you are correct that "pressure on
contributors to contribute to the ongoing budget" is problematic.
But Gettysburg is a mess and the visitor's center is putting a cherry
on this "cake."
Best,
Dimitri
Robert Willett
"Bruce Martin" <mart...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:423EF69A...@worldnet.att.net...
>
>
snip> >
> >
> Hey Bob- congrats on State making the Sweet Sixteen.
>
Appreciate that. The guys played very hard.
Note that the Big 10 and ACC each have three teams in the Sweet 16. At
least two of the six will not make the Great 8 as Wisconsin plays N. C.
State and Duke plays Michigan State in the first rounds this weekend. The
Duke/Michigan State game is a rematch of the Big Ten/ACC Shootout earlier
this season. Duke won that game.
Robert Willett
<dro...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1111422763.9...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Good points on the theme "A new Visitor's Center is not a crazy idea."
>
> You and Davis are correct: it is not a crazy idea. But it is
> superfluous and with a $49 million deficit, it looks foolish from a lot
> of angles.
Please explain how a new visitors center paid with private funds looks
foolish because there is a 49 million dollar annual shortfall in public fund
s for the park. What would be foolish is to turn down the chance to get a
new visitors center without putting pressure on already short public funds.
>
> Your fee point is interesting. And you are correct that "pressure on
> contributors to contribute to the ongoing budget" is problematic.
>
> But Gettysburg is a mess and the visitor's center is putting a cherry
> on this "cake."
Care to eloborate on that view.
>
> Best,
> Dimitri
>
Robert Willett
> Okay. I agree that we disagree, usually the case with chat rooms.
> Thanks for your valued input.
>
> One minor point though. I don't think it elitist to hold a public trust
> to its original intent. Possession is nine points of the law. Also, the
> Iegal maxim is "Qui tacit consentire," silence betokens consent.
I think your view of "original intent" is wrong. The original intent was to
have the public who was not there understand, appreciate and honor what was
done there by those who fought. Hence attracting the general public not
just the much fewer afficiendos is fulfilling the original intent.
>
> I for one hardly qualify as elite. Can't afford to pay attention. :)
> I'll clam up, which I suppose means I consent.
>
ray o'hara
Robert Willett wrote:
> That is asuming we accept that your two wrongs are wrongs which I
don't.
>
> While a few like you might understand the battle without visiting the
VC
> most who go there need the VC to appreciate what they are seeing. I
think
> this is the flaw of your view. Kind of like the canoe fans in my
area who
> want to stiop a park on the New River because it will spoil their
semi
> private access to that stretch of the river.
>
you have hit the nail on the head, people like tim want everyone to
wear a hair shirt and talk in hushed tones, hell we should make the
people of gettysburg abandon the town imagine their gaul trying to make
a living on an available resource.
many elitists think parks are for those who can afford the time and
the hoi polloi can go pound sand, really, how dare people with lives
and families think they have the right to casually visit somewhere and
expect that there be facilities to help them out.
> > Any ideal, however sacred,
> > is negotiable these days I suppose.
>
>
>> > Choose. My ancestors pre-ordained my choice. I'm compelled to
eshewe
> > tourism in deference to battlefield sanctity and decorum. It's all
a
> > matter of respect, however out of vogue that may be. What would
Hancock
> > say?
> >
>
when he went there tim wasn't a tourist? was he there as a pilgrim? a
penitent?
he must have the pure thoughts and heart of religios zealot.
> Let's see tourism unless conducted by purists is wrong. Sorry but
that
> comes across as very elitist. If they don't see it my way they must
be
> wrong.
again you are right.
ray o'hara
Tim Reese wrote:
> Okay. I agree that we disagree, usually the case with chat rooms.
> Thanks for your valued input.
>
> One minor point though. I don't think it elitist to hold a public
trust
> to its original intent. Possession is nine points of the law. Also,
the
> Iegal maxim is "Qui tacit consentire," silence betokens consent.
>
> I'll clam up, which I suppose means I consent.
you most assuredly qualify as an elitist, you seem to think you have a
line on the correct attitude and behavoir. its an historic site not a
religious shrine.
no elitist ever thinks he's an elitist, your sense of rightousness
makes you believe you have the only correct view and folks that don't
approach it with your hairshirt mentality are sullying the place, that
is elitism.
ray o'hara
Tim Reese wrote:
> Okay. I agree that we disagree, usually the case with chat rooms.
> Thanks for your valued input.
>
this isn't a chat room. it's a news group, a completely different
animal.
> One minor point though. I don't think it elitist to hold a public
trust
> to its original intent. Possession is nine points of the law. Also,
the
> Iegal maxim is "Qui tacit consentire," silence betokens consent.
>
the original intent? and you are the interperter of that? the original
intent is for people to go there and learn about it, that is the point
of all historic sites to learn about the past. not as a religious
shrine.
William G. Davis
If he does it will simply be more of his assinine rhetoric based on an
ignorance of the subject at hand, or an unwillingness to be truthful and
accurate.
WGD
William G. Davis
Sorry, Dimitri, you've lost all my respect for you.
WGD
<dro...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1111422763.9...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
William G. Davis
> You're arguing semantics.
>
> Hancock et al created a battlefield set-aside for the self-evident
> reasons you state, not to view circular paintings, drool over
> collections, purchase the latest pop storytelling, or to acquire post
> cards, key chains, or cafeteria cuisine.
Hancock had nothing to do with the startup of the set-aside. It was done by
a private attorney named David McConaughey who, after contacting Governor
Curtin in 1863, began to acquire land with his own money for his newly
established Gettysburg Battlefield Memorial Association. It was to be a
military shrine to the soldiers. And that is exactly what the GBNMP remains
today. Interpretive Rangers of the NPS, and Licensed Battlefield Guides do
NOT engage in "pop storytelling".
The GAR veterans took over the GBMA in the 1880s, and by 1894, thanks to
their efforts the Gettysburg Battlefield was established as a Park by
Congress, and placed under control of the War Department. By the 1930s,
with most of the GAR veterans passing away, the GBMA pretty much died out,
too. It was revived in the 1960s by TV's Charlie Weaver (Cliff Arquette),
and former president and Gettysburg resident Dwight Eisenhower. They
openbed the revived organization up as the Gettysburg Battlefield
Preservation Association, an organization that is still going strong
preserving property and buildings for eventual transfer to the National Park
Service.
Aficionados need
> entertainment; inquiring visitors do not.
I think you do not know what you are saying here. On the battlefield, there
is no difference.
The field speaks for itself
> ably assisted by a rudimentary park brochure. It's not the general
> public now being attracted, rather their money.
That is untrue. Patently untrue.
High-minded motives are
> just PR to justify expense and external meddling with an agenda.
Pray tell, what agenda is that?
>
> As a professional tour guide I can assure you that most visitors never
> "get it" because they can't screen out the cacophony of competing
> commercial interests.
So, are you a Licensed Battlefield Guide at Gettysburg?
I knew this trend had gone too far when people I
> was guiding insisted that I take them to battlefield points, in
> sequence, according to the movie script. They wanted to vicariously
> re-visit the film. Commercialism feeds pop perceptions, itself elitist
> by definition.
Perhaps they wanted to try to understand it in the context of the film. And
the film's context was not all that bad, nor was its timeline out of whack.
All LBGs are trained to put their tours into the context of the persons who
hire them. If a family from South Carolina hires a tour guide, he's going
to take them to Culp's Hill, the Rose Farm, East Cavalry Field and
Wheatfield; from Alabama, and he'll take them to Little Round Top, and the
Slyder Farm, Bushman Farm, and so on. They are tailored tours.
>
> Want a parallel example? Go to the Smithsonian. In the mid-'90s the
> Museum of American History transformed itself into a public-private
> partnership to offset its failure to acquire traditional Congressional
> budgetary increases. The place had become widely known as "Babylon on
> the Mall" for its unabashed decadence.
I find it amazing the way you phrase things like the Smithsonian's
"...failure to acquire traditional Congressional budgetary increases." like
it is the Smithsonian's fault. You did the same thing in another post when
talking about Gettysburg Battlefield National Military Park. I suppose you
are an expert on obtaining Congressional funding, too?
For God's sake, don't ever dare blame anything on Congress!
>
> Now it has become a curious paradox of competing and widely divergent
> commercial, social, and political interests, each hell-bent on getting
> the visitor's "mind right." If one can empty their pockets along
> the way, so much the better. Above all else, preserve the
> bureaucracy... as comfortably as possible. You wouldn't believe what
> goes on behind the scenes, so I'll spare you.
As a recent visitor to the Smithsonian, I found their gift shop tasteful,
and not overbearing, and I did not notice all the people lurking in the
shadows to take my money. Are you sure we are talking about the same
museum?
>
> This is what GNMP proposes to embrace in the near future. Rationalize
> as you like, but the end result will be the same. If you put all your
> cookies in someone else's basket, they will eat them. There's one
> born every minute.
What, exactly, is it you think the GBNMP proposes to embrace? What
dastardly deeds do you suppose they are up to?
snip
>
> The new VC complex is a done deal anyway. So the subject is moot. The
> horse is out of the barn. Let it run. Many have bet on it. History for
> sale.
But who's buying?
The developer is entitled to a profit. The developer is investing in the
new VC. The developer will get money from the profits for 25 years, and
then the connection is severed. During that time the developer is
responsible for the maintenance and upkeep. No repeat of the Cyclorama
Building that broke shortly after it opened. Total ownership and operation
reverts to the NPS in 25 years. In the meantime, they have full use of the
building.
In the meantime, Gettysburg is getting a long overdue new Visitor/Cyclorama
Center, a new film to show in its new theater, and a snack bar, as well as a
museum, offices, and maintenance work space. All of it housed in a
beautifully designed building, in a non-historic part of the battlefield, in
a beautiful setting, yet close to the main Union line on Hancock Avenue.
It is also getting an opportunity to remove two archaic eyesores that have
been less than functional for quite a while, and thus restore an historic
part of the Battlefield to its 1863 condition. The closing of the Steinwehr
Avenue entrances to the park will slowly strangle the businesses there,
allowing their removal (just as the Home Sweet Home Motel was removed a year
ago), to create a more accurate condition of the battle area.
Everything in the current Visitor's Center, and everything in the current
Cyclorama Center, and more is going into the new VC. The current Visitor's
Center is beyond repair, let alone remodeling it, thus making the new
Visitor's Center NOT superfluous. The Cyclorama Center has not worked for
years, instead showing a staionary cyclorama, and providing office and
library space for the park employees.
Apparently you get your information from the same unreliable place Dimitri
does.
WGD
>
ray o'hara
"William G. Davis" <je...@pa7MAPSON9th.org> wrote in message
news:DsWdnUdW5tF...@adelphia.com...
> Spoken with the voice of ignorance.
>
> Sorry, Dimitri, you've lost all my respect for you.
that's a point in his favor, your respect carries no weight, hell you can't
even admit who you are half the time and sometimes i think you don't know it
yourself.
don't top post.
dro...@gmail.com
those shrine-like monuments doing there? They seem short on educational
content and long on reverence invocation, I think.
If "that is the point of all historic sites to learn about the past,"
then these people are way out of line:
CWPT: "The American heroes of the Civil War call out to us across the
generations to remind us of our duty to preserve their legacy. If we
don't act now, we risk losing these irreplaceable historic treasures
forever. Please join us, get involved, and help us in preserving this
*sacred land* while there is still time."
http://www.civilwar.org/getinvolved.htm
CVBTS: "All across America, urban development threatens to destroy our
nation's *most sacred ground.* "
http://www.cvbt.org/challenge.htm
FOWB: "the public may view first hand *this hallowed and bloody
ground.*"
http://www.fowb.org/page9.html
Friends of Gettysburg: "... on behalf of all generations of Americans,
to *honor,* support, protect, and enhance, the resources."
http://www.friendsofgettysburg.org/background.html
GBPA: (Quoting Eisenhower) "....the battlefield should be preserved as
a remembrance of the sacrifices made by men who fought for the things
in which they believed."
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=battlefield+preservation
More "elitism"?
- Dimitri
http://cwbn.blogspot.com
fredthebutcher
"ray o'hara" <r...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:lfWdncpS8ud...@comcast.com...