TED WERNTZ: (Was Stacy asks for HELP: ...)
RStacy2229
In article <Pine.SUN.3.91.960901183122.2980D-100000@zonker>, "James F.
Epperson" <eppe...@math.uah.edu> writes:
>His hobby horse
>was the "thesis" that the North American slave trade was entirely the
>fault of <exageration mode on> five elderly Jews in Newport <end
>exageration>.
Wait a minute! <redneck parody mode on>You mean it wasn't? Dang, the boys
sure are going to be steamed when I tell them this at the next Aryan
Militia Brotherhood meeting.<end redneck parody mode>
Please understand that my venom in these matters is not without an origin.
Who knows what sort of stuff I was posting on the day Georgia State Rep.
Tyrone Brooks & Co. burned the state flag on the Capitol steps? Or how to
explain the intensity of my outrage when I read Tony Horowitz' story of
the murder of Michael Westerman which made it seem as if the victim had it
coming? Or when I read this quote from Atlanta playwright Pearl Cleage: "I
was not sorry to see The Margaret Mitchell Home burn to the ground. ... I
was, in fact, delighted that someone had taken direct action against what
I consider to be an insult of monumental proportions to African-American
people."
Like the guy who comes home from a hard day at work and takes out his
frustrations by kicking the dog, I sometimes bring my grievances from the
"culture wars" (as both Pat Buchanan and Eugene Genovese have called this
engagement) into this forum. At such times, one tends to lay into the
first Yankee/carpetbagger/scalawag/Boasian relativist that one encounters.
And so when I get sneers from Pitcavage, Simpson, Berkowitz, et cetera, I
tend to get pretty hot, especially when the line adopted is a suggestion
that any Southerner who defends the Confederacy is ignorant, racist or
both. This unfair slur is one against which I and others must defend
ourselves on a regular basis -- the notion that a racist is a white boy
who says "y'all." And you have no idea, unless you've been in my shoes,
how angry such aspersions make us.
You could almost say I'm the redneck James Baldwin, except that he was a
commie queer. Oh, I'm sorry, I guess I forget to mention: I'm not a
racist, but I AM a right-wing sexist homophobe.
And by the way, I am still amazed at those who get seriously offended by
the redneck parody mode, as if me and R4L might actually show up one day
in Columbus, Ohio, and whup Mark Pitcavage until his own mother couldn't
recognize him.
Robert Stacy McCain
Linda Teasley
RStacy2229 (rstac...@aol.com) wrote:
: In article <Pine.SUN.3.91.960901183122.2980D-100000@zonker>, "James F.
: Epperson" <eppe...@math.uah.edu> writes:
: >His hobby horse
: >was the "thesis" that the North American slave trade was entirely the
: >fault of <exageration mode on> five elderly Jews in Newport <end
: >exageration>.
Quite right. Ted was a strange bird. He once wrote a long post about
why R.E. Lee should have been hanged, and another post about some
"committee" or other that would help him take care of his enemies. It is
for these reasons that I find the comparison of McCain to Werntz
unpersuasive and insulting.
[some snips of Stacy's post]
: And so when I get sneers from Pitcavage, Simpson, Berkowitz, et cetera, I
: tend to get pretty hot, especially when the line adopted is a suggestion
: that any Southerner who defends the Confederacy is ignorant, racist or
: both.
Your impatience is understandable, but when you get as angry as they
get, then they win.
Linda Teasley
--
Five pelican bedecked battle flags began to flap. . . three thousand
men stepped off on the left foot. With strict cadence, ninety paces per
minute, a forest of burnished steel paraded up the hill.
Winchester --- 25 May 1862
efr...@cc.memphis.edu
> Please understand that my venom in these matters is not without an origin.
So, his frustration with people *not on this ng*
is his excuse for his strident and graceless
attacks on everyone who is less devoted to his
view of reality than he is, and is unfortunate
enough to share cyberspace with him.
> You could almost say I'm the redneck James Baldwin, except that he was a
> commie queer.
And, he was highly intelligent and had some talent.
> Oh, I'm sorry, I guess I forget to mention: I'm not a
> racist, but I AM a right-wing sexist homophobe.
Explains a lot.
> Robert Stacy McCain
Ed "earth to McCain... earth to McCain" Frank
James F. Epperson
On 4 Sep 1996, RStacy2229 wrote:
> And so when I get sneers from Pitcavage, Simpson, Berkowitz, et cetera, I
> tend to get pretty hot, especially when the line adopted is a suggestion
> that any Southerner who defends the Confederacy is ignorant, racist or
> both.
I have never seen a post here from any of those three individuals which
even suggests that they believe "any Southerner who defends the
Confederacy is ignorant, racist, or both." And I challenge you or anyone
else to find such a post.
Jim Epperson
The student who changes the course of history is probably
taking an exam.
Maury
RStacy2229 wrote:
>
> In article <Pine.SUN.3.91.960901183122.2980D-100000@zonker>, "James F.
> Epperson" <eppe...@math.uah.edu> writes:
> >His hobby horse
> >was the "thesis" that the North American slave trade was entirely the
James Epperson *was not here when Ted Werntz was posting*.
Ted's two main opponents were Lynn Berkowitz, who flamed for
three months non-stop, and Mark Pitcavage who assisted her.
Ted was in New York (Bronx) and writing anti-Jewish Slave Trade.
He didn't write pro-South as much as his focus was on Northern Slave
Trade,
a "triangular trade" and trading for "molassas" was used to make "rum",
and other such things. He also advocated Southern Books on the
alt.war.civil.usa "Suggested Readings List", including works on
African-Americans and in Women. -- Maury (who *was* here)
=========================================
<end
> >exageration>.
>
> Wait a minute! <redneck parody mode on>You mean it wasn't? Dang, the boys
> sure are going to be steamed when I tell them this at the next Aryan
> Militia Brotherhood meeting.<end redneck parody mode>
>
> Please understand that my venom in these matters is not without an origin.
> Who knows what sort of stuff I was posting on the day Georgia State Rep.
> Tyrone Brooks & Co. burned the state flag on the Capitol steps? Or how to
> explain the intensity of my outrage when I read Tony Horowitz' story of
> the murder of Michael Westerman which made it seem as if the victim had it
> coming? Or when I read this quote from Atlanta playwright Pearl Cleage: "I
> was not sorry to see The Margaret Mitchell Home burn to the ground. ... I
> was, in fact, delighted that someone had taken direct action against what
> I consider to be an insult of monumental proportions to African-American
> people."
>
> Like the guy who comes home from a hard day at work and takes out his
> frustrations by kicking the dog, I sometimes bring my grievances from the
> "culture wars" (as both Pat Buchanan and Eugene Genovese have called this
> engagement) into this forum. At such times, one tends to lay into the
> first Yankee/carpetbagger/scalawag/Boasian relativist that one encounters.
> And so when I get sneers from Pitcavage, Simpson, Berkowitz, et cetera, I
> tend to get pretty hot, especially when the line adopted is a suggestion
> that any Southerner who defends the Confederacy is ignorant, racist or
> both.
Ted Werntz did that same thing (but BSimpson wasn't here.)
He was pounded on relentlessly and he pounded right back.
================================================================
>This unfair slur is one against which I and others must defend
> ourselves on a regular basis -- the notion that a racist is a white boy
> who says "y'all." And you have no idea, unless you've been in my shoes,
> how angry such aspersions make us.
Huh, I believe the opposite. They know very well how much it bothers
some Southerners so they use it. It comes from various problems they
have within themselves and do note that they did not have ancestry
that fought in the American Civil War. Some are fresh from the "Old
Country" with problems bottled up, left over from Hitler and they
seek to vent those problems via analogies and posting anti-South.
Note too that people tend to post according to their location
with the exception of BSimpson who is from New York, and Epperson
whose heart is still in Michigan. So, posters often post according
to region, and perhaps because in their respective regions they,
when young, were educated ant-South, pro-North regarding the
American Civil War. It doesn't matter to them that none of their
family fought in that war since they draw from their other
experiences from within themselves -- Maury
=================================================
> You could almost say I'm the redneck James Baldwin, except that he was a
> commie queer. Oh, I'm sorry, I guess I forget to mention: I'm not a
> racist, but I AM a right-wing sexist homophobe.
>
> And by the way, I am still amazed at those who get seriously offended by
> the redneck parody mode, as if me and R4L might actually show up one day
> in Columbus, Ohio, and whup Mark Pitcavage until his own mother couldn't
> recognize him.
That's just something they like to play headgames with. -- Maury
> Robert Stacy McCain
.
James F. Epperson
On Wed, 4 Sep 1996, Maury wrote:
> RStacy2229 wrote:
> >
> > In article <Pine.SUN.3.91.960901183122.2980D-100000@zonker>, "James F.
> > Epperson" <eppe...@math.uah.edu> writes:
> > >His hobby horse
> > >was the "thesis" that the North American slave trade was entirely the
> > >fault of Jews in Newport
>
>
> James Epperson *was not here when Ted Werntz was posting*.
In a word, b*llsh*t. I remember Ted rather well, since one of his last
messages to the group was to call me a racist for disagreeing with him.
I am not sure what Maury's purpose is in repeatedly denying that I have
been here as long as I have. For the record, the oldest post I recall
seeing was Chuck Pinnegar's satire on "The Group" which was in late 1994
or early 1995. I have archives of an ugly argument that I got into (on
another subject) with Chuck P. from February of 1995, and I had been
participating in the NG for at least a month at that point.
Lynn Berkowitz
On 4 Sep 1996 12:36:22 -0400, l...@panix.com (Linda Teasley) wrote:
Stacy wrote:
:: And so when I get sneers from Pitcavage, Simpson, Berkowitz, et cetera, I
:: tend to get pretty hot, especially when the line adopted is a suggestion
:: that any Southerner who defends the Confederacy is ignorant, racist or
:: both.
:
: Your impatience is understandable, but when you get as angry as they
:get, then they win.
:
The "Gang of Four" (Stacy neglected to mention Jim Epperson) never
gets angry-- they get even.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lynn Berkowitz lynn...@ix.netcom.com
Linda Teasley
Lynn Berkowitz (lynn...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: On 4 Sep 1996 12:36:22 -0400, l...@panix.com (Linda Teasley) wrote:
: : Your impatience is understandable, but when you get as angry as they
: :get, then they win.
: :
: The "Gang of Four" (Stacy neglected to mention Jim Epperson) never
: gets angry-- they get even.
You said it; I didn't.
Linda "agreement is sometimes easy" Teasley
Maury
James F. Epperson wrote:
>
> On Wed, 4 Sep 1996, Maury wrote:
>
> > RStacy2229 wrote:
> > >
> > > In article <Pine.SUN.3.91.960901183122.2980D-100000@zonker>, "James F.
> > > Epperson" <eppe...@math.uah.edu> writes:
> > > >His hobby horse
> > > >was the "thesis" that the North American slave trade was entirely the
> > > >fault of Jews in Newport
> >
> >
> > James Epperson *was not here when Ted Werntz was posting*.
>
> In a word, b*llsh*t. I remember Ted rather well, since one of his last
> messages to the group was to call me a racist for disagreeing with him.
I suppose you could have been here since you say you were and
I'll take your word on it since you are unlike some I know here.
In such a case, I herby publically apologise to you for my mistake
in thinking that you were not here. I do think it must have been just
prior to Ted leaving though as he had many people tossing flames at
him at that time. I did not read all of those "messages" and perhaps
I never *saw* all of those messages since I was on the VINE system
at that time, the "front" of which was simply a BBS that pulled in
X # msgs/day and was always behind in sending and receiving usenet
messages. Recall though, and use your good sense, that Ted was under
flak from several people and all at once. He tried to defend against
an onslaught of messages, and that is enough to wear most anyone down,
which perhaps, in part, was the purpose of so many pounding on him at
once. You will recall, I'm sure, that when you were flaming, (you said
you were "angry") at Melanie, that all of us stayed out of it. The
situation was totally the opposite with Ted being pounded on.
Have a nice day,
Maury
ps:
apology sent via e-mail but I thought I should also make
an open apology. It's not something you will see many do. - Maury
.
BRERETON, TODD RICHARD
In article <50k91o$s...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, rstac...@aol.com (RStacy2229)
writes...
>
>And by the way, I am still amazed at those who get seriously offended by
>the redneck parody mode, as if me and R4L might actually show up one day
>in Columbus, Ohio, and whup Mark Pitcavage until his own mother couldn't
>recognize him.
>
>Robert Stacy McCain
Thlectable statements, the dittohead will say that Rush wasn't really
serious, he was just using humor to make a point, that it was satire, and
besides Rush's program is just *entertainment*, so why are you taking his
statements so seriously, and isn't it just like a liberal to make a big deal
about words.
Are we now to assume, Mr. McCain, that you're just pulling our collective
leg and that what you write is for entertainment value only? Or perhaps you
would be so kind as to let those of use who are redneck humor impaired (you
know, all of us ignorant .edu types) when the operable mode is on or off.
Sometimes it's difficult to tell.
TRB
>
BRERETON, TODD RICHARD
In article <5SEP1996...@vms1.tamu.edu>, trb...@vms1.tamu.edu (BRERETON,
TODD RICHARD) writes...
For those of you who care, my server garbled my witty reply, which should
have
>Th[is is reminiscent of the dittohead defense of Rush Limbaugh. Whenever
Rush utters one of his more de]lectable statements, the dittohead will say tha
Mark T Pitcavage
In article <Pine.SUN.3.91.960904141536.394E-100000@zonker>,
James F. Epperson <eppe...@math.uah.edu> wrote:
>On 4 Sep 1996, RStacy2229 wrote:
>
>> And so when I get sneers from Pitcavage, Simpson, Berkowitz, et cetera, I
>> tend to get pretty hot, especially when the line adopted is a suggestion
>> that any Southerner who defends the Confederacy is ignorant, racist or
>> both.
>
>even suggests that they believe "any Southerner who defends the
>Confederacy is ignorant, racist, or both." And I challenge you or anyone
>else to find such a post.
While they are searching, they -will- find posts from us telling people who
-did- believe such things (like "Tony 'Defiant' G., or whatever his name was)
that their comments were not welcome here.
cwood
In article <50k91o$s...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, rstac...@aol.com (RStacy2229) says:
>
> Oh, I'm sorry, I guess I forget to mention: I'm not a
>racist, but I AM a right-wing sexist homophobe.
>
Well, I guess part of the cure is recognizing that you have a problem.
<giggle>
C Wood
usg...@imap1.asu.edu
Maury (w...@cstone.net) wrote:
: Ted Werntz did that same thing (but BSimpson wasn't here.)
: He was pounded on relentlessly and he pounded right back.
For what it's worth, (a) I was here (b) Ted and I posted a lot, sometimes
as friends, sometimes in disagreement, about various topics. And Ted
tried to get Maury to behave. So I always recall that Ted had some
positives--even as I saw why others had trouble with him.
No wonder Maury's memory fails him at times like this.
Having said this, and having read the other responses to this point, let
this issue rest.
: So, posters often post according
: to region, and perhaps because in their respective regions they,
: when young, were educated ant-South, pro-North regarding the
: American Civil War.
Sorry, Maury, but the first course I ever took on the American Civil War
was at the University of Virginia.
And the course said nothing about Southern ants.
: It doesn't matter to them that none of their
: family fought in that war since they draw from their other
: experiences from within themselves -- Maury
Other people know this is factually incorrect for several posters here.
But none of us seeks to hide behind our ancestors or engage in
ancestor-worship--or to go nuts when someone comments in critical fashion
on endless posts by said ancestors.
Sigh.
Brooks Simpson
: .
--
Brooks Simpson
usg...@imap1.asu.edu
cwood (cw...@eagle.wbm.ca) wrote:
Exactly. Here McCain has Billy Morris beat all to hell.
--
Brooks Simpson
usg...@imap1.asu.edu
RStacy2229 (rstac...@aol.com) wrote:
: And so when I get sneers from Pitcavage, Simpson, Berkowitz, et cetera, I
: tend to get pretty hot, especially when the line adopted is a suggestion
: that any Southerner who defends the Confederacy is ignorant, racist or
: both.
Dennis must be away from his computer . . . and Mike Marshall's on fire
duty at Columbia. Otherwise they would have replied to this by now.
Others have asked Stacy to cite chapter and verse on this issue to
support the allegation. But I contend that Stacy isn't just "any"
Southerner.
Is he ignorant? Judge for yourself.
Is he racist? Judge for yourself.
Is he a typical Southerner? Nah. He's quite exceptional in many ways.
: Oh, I'm sorry, I guess I forget to mention: I'm not a
: racist, but I AM a right-wing sexist homophobe.
Okay, so we don't have to ask any more . . .
And so passes another day in the neighborhood. Perhaps one day we can
put all this together and asked, "Who started the flames in the newsgroup?"
For as I watched a quiet newsgroup, Maury appeared, and then there were
flames . . . ;)
(Just one of those usenet parodies, boys and girls. As Maury says, it's
all in fun.)
--
Brooks Simpson
usg...@imap1.asu.edu
Linda Teasley (l...@panix.com) wrote:
to Stacy's comment . . .
: : And so when I get sneers from Pitcavage, Simpson, Berkowitz, et cetera, I
: : tend to get pretty hot, especially when the line adopted is a suggestion
: : that any Southerner who defends the Confederacy is ignorant, racist or
: : both.
: Your impatience is understandable, but when you get as angry as they
: get, then they win.
: Linda Teasley
Yes, but . . . we win anyway.
Perhaps Linda can comment on the accuracy of this assertion with specific
examples.
Please, Linda, demonstrate to me that I have posted that ANY Southerner
who defends the Confederacy is ignorant, racist, or both. Now, Linda,
you would admit that some Southerners who defend the Confederacy might be
ignorant--just as there might be some ignorant Yankees who might defend
the Union. And I think you would admit that some of the people who post
in defense of the Confederacy harbor racial prejudices.
But most Southerners are above that sort of thing--including several
people in this newsgroup. And they are the very people who often e-mail
me privately and beg me not to assume that Maury or Stacy is
representative of their section. They need not worry. In the past I've
lived in the South for ten years (tReb's beloved Tennessee, Hubcab's
South Carolina [during Hugo, by the way] and you-know-who's own
Virginia). So I know better.
As you don't think Dunning and co. wrote scholarship fundamentally
shaped by racist assumptions, I get leery whenever you discuss racial
attitudes, because we obviously don't share the same definition of racism
and racist. And on this matter, McCain agrees with you; at
times it seems as if he's citing none other than Claude Bowers chapter
and verse. Claude's account is clearly racist. Do you agree? I'm just
trying to discover what we mean by the term.
--
Brooks Simpson
Maury
In article <50o8dq$6...@news.asu.edu>, usg...@imap1.asu.edu says...
>
>Maury (w...@cstone.net) wrote:
>
>: Ted Werntz did that same thing (but BSimpson wasn't here.)
>
>: He was pounded on relentlessly and he pounded right back.
>
You were here near the end of Ted's posting. You weren't here
when he arrived and neither was Epperson that I recall. - Maury
=========================================================
(b) Ted and I posted a lot, sometimes
>as friends, sometimes in disagreement, about various topics.
Ted and I usually wrote privately and we both were advocating
the inclusion of the SHSP in the "Sugested Readings List since
the "Official Records of the War of Rebellion" existed on that
list. - Maury
===============
>And Ted tried to get Maury to behave.
Uh, Ted was busy flaming too much to get anyone to "try to behave".
What he did do was try to get the established flame doors to swing
in another direction. -- Maury
>So I always recall that Ted had some positives
So did and do I. - Maury
----------------------------
>--even as I saw why others had trouble with him.
>..posters often post according
>: to region, and perhaps because in their respective regions they,
>: when young, were educated anti-South, pro-North regarding the
>: American Civil War.
>
>Sorry, Maury, but the first course I ever took on the American Civil War
>was at the University of Virginia.
"posters" doesn't mean the singular you but I do find it
interesting that you had no education on the Civil War until
you went through a university. - Maury
================================================
>: It doesn't matter to them that none of their
>: family fought in that war since they draw from their other
>: experiences from within themselves -- Maury
>
>Other people know this is factually incorrect for several posters here.
I think it is correct and we've traveled this route before. - Maury
==========================================================
>But none of us seeks to hide behind our ancestors or engage in
>ancestor-worship--
I don't think you know who your "ancestors" were and I doubt that
you know what they did in the civil war, which is what this area
is about from privates to generals and more. Heritage is not
"ancestor worship" while you yourself may well be aware of your
own "hero worship" of a man that kept prisoners of war in hells
and hardships, even though a group of them were allowed to visit
the President, Lincoln, who turned them down and Lincoln's military
power lay in Grant. -- Maury
=================================================
>Brooks Simpson
--
>Brooks Simpson
.
Maury
In article <50o91u$6...@news.asu.edu>, usg...@imap1.asu.edu says...
>
>RStacy2229 (rstac...@aol.com) wrote:
>
>: And so when I get sneers from Pitcavage, Simpson, Berkowitz, et cetera, I
>: tend to get pretty hot, especially when the line adopted is a suggestion
>: that any Southerner who defends the Confederacy is ignorant, racist or
>: both.
>
>duty at Columbia. Otherwise they would have replied to this by now.
>
>Others have asked Stacy to cite chapter and verse on this issue to
>support the allegation. But I contend that Stacy isn't just "any"
>Southerner.
>
>Is he ignorant? Judge for yourself.
>
>Is he racist? Judge for yourself.
>
>Is he a typical Southerner? Nah. He's quite exceptional in many ways.
>
>: Oh, I'm sorry, I guess I forget to mention: I'm not a
>: racist, but I AM a right-wing sexist homophobe.
>
>Okay, so we don't have to ask any more . . .
>
>And so passes another day in the neighborhood. Perhaps one day we can
>put all this together and asked, "Who started the flames in the newsgroup?"
As anytime when anyone watches this newsgroup, Brooks Simpson will
always soon appear, and then there are more flames . . . ;)
He follows his hero worshiping of Grant "the butcher" and
"Willie The Torch" Sherman. Little wonder BS loves flames so
much. Perhaps he'll meet them and greet them someday down below
where the flames are serious.
As BSImpson said, he thinks it's "all in fun".
- Maury
==============================================================
>--
>Brooks Simpson
.
RStacy2229
>>Are we now to assume, Mr. McCain, that you're just pulling our
collective
>>leg and that what you write is for entertainment value only? Or perhaps
you
>>would be so kind as to let those of use who are redneck humor impaired
(you
>>know, all of us ignorant .edu types) when the operable mode is on or
off.
>>Sometimes it's difficult to tell.
>>
I'm sure it must be difficult to tell when I'm joking, since I often don't
know myself! And I am not quite sure I remember saying an ".edu" address
was evidence of "ignorance." Perhaps you are referring to my objection
that my taxes are subsidizing the very computers on which I am being
flamed by uppity overeducated scalawags who would be DEAD MEAT if they
actually had to support themselves in the private sector. Leftist
scalawags are almost exclusively found within the various tax-funded
and/or tax-free non-profit bureaucracies, public education among them,
basically because coronary hemorrhage is not a growth industry.
Note: I hate uppity right-wing carpetbaggers with equal venom. Remember
that Georgia taxpayers supported Newt Gingrich for years before the
Pennsylvania-born Army brat finally went to college, where American
taxpayers (and fatcat lobbyists) have been supporting him ever since.
Being a member of the oppressed proletariat is one thing. But when I am
taxed to pay for my own oppression, I get steamed.
And Todd, that howling you hear is the ghost of Sull Ross: "Repent! Repent
ye scalawags!"
Robert Stacy McCain
Rome GA
P.S.: See why the redneck parody mode is so difficult to detect? What
looks like a joke might actually be true. Subtlety, my lad, subtlety!
Linda Teasley
usg...@imap1.asu.edu wrote:
: Linda Teasley (l...@panix.com) wrote:
: Please, Linda, demonstrate to me that I have posted that ANY Southerner
: who defends the Confederacy is ignorant, racist, or both.
Since the original comment was Stacy's, not mine, I think your question
should be addressed to him. I don't personally recall your having
asserted such a thing.
[snip]
: But most Southerners are above that sort of thing--including several
: people in this newsgroup. And they are the very people who often e-mail
: me privately and beg me not to assume that Maury or Stacy is
: representative of their section.
Well, if you want to really explore what racism is, we can do that, but
I will have to say that I do not think Maury or Stacy are racists. They
both are willing to deny the charge that Southern slavery was the
equivalent of the Holocaust, but that, in my opinion, does not make them
racists.
: As you don't think Dunning and co. wrote scholarship fundamentally
: shaped by racist assumptions, I get leery whenever you discuss racial
: attitudes, because we obviously don't share the same definition of racism
: and racist.
Possibly true. Let me say that I would agree with your
formulation of my attitude about Dunning, although I do indeed detect a
patronizing attitude about slaves and freedmen in their work. That, for
me, does not constitute racism.
And on this matter, McCain agrees with you; at
: times it seems as if he's citing none other than Claude Bowers chapter
: and verse. Claude's account is clearly racist. Do you agree? I'm just
: trying to discover what we mean by the term.
Let me fudge the Bowers question for a moment and start with another
historian. I think it might shed some light to look at James Edward
Pike, a Republican journalist for Greeley's New York Tribune in 1850. He
hated negroes and said, "We say the Free States should say, confine the
negro to the smallest area. Hem him in. Coop him up. Slough him off.
Preserve just so much of North America as is possible to the white man,
and to free institutions."
Now then, I would say that Pike is a racist. My libertarian leanings
make me extremely reluctant to label anyone's private opinions just
because they are different from my own. However, Pike is advocating in a
public forum a public policy based on his opinions about race. I'll bet
that you will agree with me about this. However, a more difficult issue
is that Pike wrote a book, _The Prostrate State_ in which he ridicules
the black-dominated governments of South Carolina after the war. Do his
racist opinions invalidate what he said? I would say no (and I bet you
will say yes) because although his opinions should be considered suspect,
much of what he said as an historian can be validated from other sources.
So my judgment of Pike is equivocal. His racist opinions would be
significant to me only if 1) he wants to shape public policy, or 2) he
wants to marry my daughter. I will not otherwise interfere or even label
what he chooses to think or say about God, much less about race.
Bowers is harder to define. He is clearly patronizing and often
denigrating about blacks. He's also a vigorous and engaging writer.
Linda T.
Bob Comarow
For what it's worth, while obviously I disagreed with most of what
Ted Werntz wrote, (and was subjected to some pretty incredible attacks)
HE'S NOT HERE ANYMORE.
As such, I think this type of topic is completely inappropriate.
Bob
Dennis Maggard
usg...@imap1.asu.edu wrote:
>RStacy2229 (rstac...@aol.com) wrote:
>: And so when I get sneers from Pitcavage, Simpson, Berkowitz, et cetera, I
>: tend to get pretty hot, especially when the line adopted is a suggestion
>: that any Southerner who defends the Confederacy is ignorant, racist or
>: both.
>Dennis must be away from his computer . . . and Mike Marshall's on fire
>duty at Columbia. Otherwise they would have replied to this by now.
As shocking as it may be, I don't read every word written by Mr . McCain
and hence missed this post. FWIW, I will state unequivocally that neither
Brooks Simpson nor Lynn Berkowitz take the attitude that any Southerner who
defends the Confederacy is ignorant, racist or both. On the other hand,
Mark Pitcavage does seem to come close that attitude at times and does
provide some justification for Mr. McCain's statement. I have been
effectively called both ignorant, many times, and a racist, at least once,
by Mark for defending the South and it does put one's civility to the test;
none the less, I believe neither the South nor this newsgroup is well
served by responding in kind. Most people in their hearts know that
intemperate language is not the hallmark of truth and objectivity.
Dennis
Mark T Pitcavage
In article <50s8u8$m...@news3.digex.net>,
Dennis Maggard <dmag...@access.digex.net> wrote:
>As shocking as it may be, I don't read every word written by Mr . McCain
>and hence missed this post. FWIW, I will state unequivocally that neither
>Brooks Simpson nor Lynn Berkowitz take the attitude that any Southerner who
>defends the Confederacy is ignorant, racist or both. On the other hand,
>Mark Pitcavage does seem to come close that attitude at times and does
>provide some justification for Mr. McCain's statement. I have been
>effectively called both ignorant, many times, and a racist, at least once,
>by Mark for defending the South and it does put one's civility to the test;
>none the less, I believe neither the South nor this newsgroup is well
>served by responding in kind. Most people in their hearts know that
>intemperate language is not the hallmark of truth and objectivity.
I have not called you racist, and any remarks I may have made regarding your
lack of knowledge stem not from your "defending the South," but from the fact
that you never post on matters related to the Civil War, only on matters
relating to people who post here.
usg...@imap1.asu.edu
Maury (w...@cstone.net) wrote:
: You were here near the end of Ted's posting. You weren't here
: when he arrived and neither was Epperson that I recall. - Maury
Wrong on two counts. Just making sure that you get your facts straight.
Bob Camerow, of course, is correct. Posts about Ted, comparisons to Ted,
and so on are lost on recent members of this newsgroup. I understand why
they inquire about Ted; and as a result we rehash old garbage. Let Stacy
McCain stand on his own merits. And let Maury stand.
(Why? Because it hurts too much for him to sit.) ;)
And speaking of . . .
: >Sorry, Maury, but the first course I ever took on the American Civil War
: >was at the University of Virginia.
: "posters" doesn't mean the singular you but I do find it
: interesting that you had no education on the Civil War until
: you went through a university. - Maury
Ah, a common mistake. Lots of people gain an education in some topic
without ever going to a university or taking a course in something.
: >: It doesn't matter to them that none of their
: >: family fought in that war since they draw from their other
: >: experiences from within themselves -- Maury
: >
: >Other people know this is factually incorrect for several posters here.
: I think it is correct and we've traveled this route before. - Maury
Sorry, Maury, but I know it is incorrect. Several of us have ancestors
who fought in the war. Where we've travelled this route before is in
your claim that such is not the case. We accept your assertion that you
have CW kin, so perhaps you should extend the same courtesy to others.
: I don't think you know who your "ancestors" were and I doubt that
: you know what they did in the civil war,
Actually, I do.
(Snip of remainder of typical flame bait.)
BDS
: .
--
Brooks Simpson
GAELIC REB
In article <Pine.SUN.3.91.960904141536.394E-100000@zonker>, "James F.
McCain wrote:
> And so when I get sneers from Pitcavage, Simpson, Berkowitz, et cetera,
I
>> tend to get pretty hot, especially when the line adopted is a
suggestion
>> that any Southerner who defends the Confederacy is ignorant, racist or
>> both.
>
Epperson wrote:
>I have never seen a post here from any of those three individuals which
>even suggests that they believe "any Southerner who defends the
>Confederacy is ignorant, racist, or both." And I challenge you or anyone
>else to find such a post.
>
>Jim Epperson
Mark Pitcavage, September 6, 1996:
> I have characterized
>exactly two persons who have posted in this newsgroup as racists: you and
>James Turner. I think the designation fits very well.
Jim,
I realize that Pitcavage posted this after your statement, but it really
just reinforces what we already know of the boy. He calls me a racist
because of my friendship with Kirk Lyons, not because of anything I've
ever said or done. The designation of racist does not fit me at all,
though I have no problem with Pitcavage making the charge. My feeling is
that he attacks those whom he fears most as racist. I'll take that as a
compliment. That's typically what my debate opponents do when they're
really losing in public. It's the last gasp of a drowning man. Mark
Pitcavage is a man who has not accomplished very much in life, and is
scared to death that he never will. This newsgroup gives him the
opportunity to bluster and crow and act as if he is somebody. I take the
slander personally, and would only love to here him say that to me in
person one time. Just once. There was no reason for that insult, and I
respectfully ask Mr. Pitcavage that it not happen again. EVER.
James Turner