Vuestra Merced, Su Merced, etc., on Xica
Andy Axnot
We have been watching the Brazilian telenovela, 'Xica', which is dubbed in
Spanish. It is a period piece set in colonial Brazil. In any event, most
of the characters address each other as "Vuestra Merced" or, occasionally,
"Su Merced".
While this show has its faults, we have had great fun with it, and, for a
while, were addressing each other as, (what else?), Vuestra Merced. But
nobody seems to know exactly how these work, what the differences are, when
(historically) they were used, etc. Does anyone have any information to
share?
This is all complicated a little, perhaps, in that the show is dubbed in
Spanish, translated from the Brazilian Portugese. Perhaps the usage that we
hear on that show is something that was never used in Spanish, but just a
contrivance of the show's translators to give a good feeling for the
original dialogue in Portugese, which may itself might have been contrived a
bit to give the flavor of the speech of the historical period. Or maybe
not.
Ah, questions, questions. Many thanks for any information.
--
Andy
chlewey
>Hi!
>
>We have been watching the Brazilian telenovela, 'Xica', which
>is dubbed in Spanish. It is a period piece set in colonial
>Brazil. In any event, most of the characters address each
>other as "Vuestra Merced" or, occasionally, "Su Merced".
>
>While this show has its faults, we have had great fun with it,
>and, for a while, were addressing each other as, (what else?),
>Vuestra Merced. But nobody seems to know exactly how these
>work, what the differences are, when (historically) they were
>used, etc. Does anyone have any information to share?
Literaly "Your mercy" and is an old addressing way.
>This is all complicated a little, perhaps, in that the show is
>dubbed in Spanish, translated from the Brazilian Portugese.
>Perhaps the usage that we hear on that show is something that
>was never used in Spanish, but just a contrivance of the show's
>translators to give a good feeling for the original dialogue in
>Portugese, which may itself might have been contrived a bit to
>give the flavor of the speech of the historical period. Or
>maybe not.
It should be used to give a historical flavor. As I said above,
it is an old addressing form, which has evolved into standard
modern Spanish "usted" and Colombian "sumerced".
>Ah, questions, questions. Many thanks for any information.
>
>--
>
>Andy
-- Carlos Th
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John O'Flaherty
> Hi!
>
> We have been watching the Brazilian telenovela, 'Xica', which is dubbed in
> Spanish. It is a period piece set in colonial Brazil. In any event, most
> of the characters address each other as "Vuestra Merced" or, occasionally,
> "Su Merced".
>
> While this show has its faults, we have had great fun with it, and, for a
> while, were addressing each other as, (what else?), Vuestra Merced. But
> nobody seems to know exactly how these work, what the differences are, when
> (historically) they were used, etc. Does anyone have any information to
> share?
>
> This is all complicated a little, perhaps, in that the show is dubbed in
> Spanish, translated from the Brazilian Portugese. Perhaps the usage that we
> hear on that show is something that was never used in Spanish, but just a
> contrivance of the show's translators to give a good feeling for the
> original dialogue in Portugese, which may itself might have been contrived a
> bit to give the flavor of the speech of the historical period. Or maybe
> not.
>
> Ah, questions, questions. Many thanks for any information.
Well, I don't know the answer to your question, but you've answered mine about
why the audio in the show sounds so unnatural. I didn't know it was from Brazil
and dubbed in Spanish. I must say it seems a little odd that a man and woman in
bed who've obviously just finished doing maximally intimate things would be
calling each other by such formal address.
john
Lloyd Zusman
> Hi!
>
> We have been watching the Brazilian telenovela, 'Xica', which is dubbed in
> Spanish. It is a period piece set in colonial Brazil. In any event, most
> of the characters address each other as "Vuestra Merced" or, occasionally,
> "Su Merced".
>
> While this show has its faults, we have had great fun with it, and, for a
> while, were addressing each other as, (what else?), Vuestra Merced. But
> nobody seems to know exactly how these work, what the differences are, when
> (historically) they were used, etc. Does anyone have any information to
> share?
>
> This is all complicated a little, perhaps, in that the show is dubbed in
> Spanish, translated from the Brazilian Portugese. Perhaps the usage that we
> hear on that show is something that was never used in Spanish, but just a
> contrivance of the show's translators to give a good feeling for the
> original dialogue in Portugese, which may itself might have been contrived a
> bit to give the flavor of the speech of the historical period. Or maybe
> not.
>
> Ah, questions, questions. Many thanks for any information.
Well, first of all, do you realize that "usted" is a direct derivation
from "Vuestra Merced"? So the fun you were having calling each other
"Vuestra Merced" isn't that far from what millions of people do now,
day to day, when addressing each other as "usted". The history goes
something like this:
In traditional Latin, the singular and plural forms of "you" were "tu"
and "vos". There was no formal/informal distinction.
Then, later on (I'm not sure exactly when in history this started
taking place), the rulers of the people started referring to
themselves as "we" instead of "I". Therefore, people addressing them
had to use corresponding plural form of "you", namely "vos" to address
them. This started extending beyond royalty, to anyone you want to
show respect to. So after a while, "vos" became the formal way to say
"you" in the singular, and "tu" remained informal. "Vos" remained
the plural form for both formal and informal.
This is as far as thing got in places like France, for example, where
they still use "tu" for the singular informal and "vous" for the singular
formal, and "vous" for both formal and informal plural.
But in the Spanish-speaking world, things went a little further.
Kings and other royalty were refered to as "Your Grace" or "His/Her
Grace". Since "vos" was supposed to be used to show respect, "Your
Grace" got to be translated as "Vuestra Merced" ("Vuestra" being the
posessive form of "vos"). And of course, "Su Merced" became the
version used for "His/Her Grace".
But just like "vos" in the past, "Vuestra Merced", and probably "Su
Merced" as well, came to be used to show respect towards anyone
(parents, teachers, etc.), not just royalty. At the same time,
because it was so widely used, it came to be shortened. Originally,
there was no difference between the letters "u" and "v", there were
just different forms of the same character. Therefore, "vuestra" was
probably not pronounced all that differently from the sound "uestra"
by many people. Therefore, the abreviation of "Vuestra Merced" into
"usted" probably evolved something like this:
vuestra merced -> uestra merced -> usted
And once "usted" came into use, a plural form was needed, hence
"ustedes".
This also explains why "usted/ustedes" take third-person verb forms
and not second-person: when we say "Your Grace", it's a third-person
construct. In English, we would say, "Does Your Grace wish some tea?"
(not "*Do Your Grace wish some tea?"), and this is equally true for
Spanish.
Also, back in the old days when "vos" became the formal form for the
singular second-person pronoun, a plural form was needed, and hence
"vosotros" evolved as the plural informal usage.
This explains the "tu/vos/usted" trichotomy we have nowadays:
In most of Spain, the formal constructs have been falling into disuse,
and so "tu" and "vosotros" are now the normal usages ("vos" changed to
"vosotros" in the informal plural long enough ago that "vos" sounds
ancient and archaic in Spain).
In many regions of Latin America, "vos/vosotros" ceased to be used at
all, and so we have "ustedes" for the second-person plural for either
formal or informal usages, and "tu/usted" for the informal/formal
second person.
And in other Latin American regions, "vos" has supplanted "tu" as the
second-person *informal* pronoun. This probably resulted during the
time when "vos" was so widely used that people were starting to use
"Vuestra Merced" in the formal usage to distinguish it from "vos". In
these regions, "ustedes" is used both for formal and informal
second-person plural.
And we have other "Vuestra" abbreviations, as well:
"Usencia" derives from "Vuestra Excelencia", "Your Excellency"
"Usía" derives from "Vuestra Señoría", "Your Lordship"
And I believe that "Su Merced" still survives in courts of law and
other formal settings, as well as "Su Excelencia", where "Su" here
means "Your" in the "usted" sense, as well as "His/Her".
HTH
EQELA / EQETA
--
Lloyd Zusman
l...@asfast.com
Angelico
<axnot....@onebox.com> wrote:
] Hi!
]
] We have been watching the Brazilian telenovela, 'Xica', which is dubbed in
] Spanish. It is a period piece set in colonial Brazil. In any event, most
] of the characters address each other as "Vuestra Merced" or, occasionally,
] "Su Merced".
]
] While this show has its faults, we have had great fun with it, and, for a
] while, were addressing each other as, (what else?), Vuestra Merced. But
] nobody seems to know exactly how these work, what the differences are, when
] (historically) they were used, etc. Does anyone have any information to
] share?
It's used just in the same way as "usted" today, with the third
person, singular for "vuestra merced" and plural for "vuestras
mercedes".
It was used at least until the first half of 17th century (perhaps
even later, anyone?), having another version, "vuesa merced" and "las
vuesas mercedes". I don't know if it was mandatory to use the article
in this plural form, but I've always read it this way. I neither know
if this "vuesa" is more modern or more old-fashioned than "vuestra" or
just used by illiterate people.
]
] This is all complicated a little, perhaps, in that the show is dubbed in
] Spanish, translated from the Brazilian Portugese. Perhaps the usage that we
] hear on that show is something that was never used in Spanish, but just a
] contrivance of the show's translators to give a good feeling for the
] original dialogue in Portugese, which may itself might have been contrived a
] bit to give the flavor of the speech of the historical period. Or maybe
] not.
]
] Ah, questions, questions. Many thanks for any information.
You're welcome and I'm very pleased :)
--
Un saludo desde la tierra de la luz.
Angel Arnal
Valencia, España (hablante nativo)
ICQ# 49213241
Read the a.u.s. FAQ at http://teleline.terra.es/personal/angelarn/aus/index.htm
My real e-mail ends with .es not .kp
PANG
PANG
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lloyd Zusman
> Lloyd; what you say makes a lot of sense. Thank you for the information.
Con mucho placer, Vuestra Merced. :)
--
Lloyd Zusman
l...@asfast.com
Becky Jaxon
Thank you,
Becky Jaxon
Illinois, EE.UU.
Lloyd Zusman
> Wow. That was fascinating. It goes in my permanent file.
Muchísimas gracias ... me fascina igualmente está información.
Y también, tengo uno pequeño asunto adicional de que me olvidé en mi
historia larga: a veces se ve "Vd." como la abreviatura de "usted".
Ahora debería ser evidente la razón por el "V" en esta abreviatura,
aunque "usted" empieza con "u" y no con "v": es porque "Vd." fue
originariamente la abreviatura de "Vuestra Merced".
Thank you very much ... this information is equally fascinating to
me.
And also, I have a small additional point that I forgot in my long
history: sometimes "Vd." is seen as the abbreviation of "usted". Now
the reason for the "V" in this abbreviation should be clear, even
though "usted" begins with "u" and not "v": it's because "Vd."
originally was the abbreviation for "Vuestra Merced".
Y tal vez sería divertido y nos pasaríamos muy bien si hiciéramos lo
que hacían Sr. Andy Axnot y sus amigos: que empezaríamos a llamarnos
"Vuestra Merced" en nuestras mensajes aquí. Pero a mí estoy lo más
cómodo y es lo más conveniente que ustedes me llamen "Tu Excelencía"
.. porque soy tan humilde, prefiero "tu" en lugar de "vuestra".
<sonriendome>
And maybe it would be fun and we'd have a good time if we'd do what
Andy Axnot and his friends were doing: that we start calling each
other "Vuestra Merced" here in our messgaes. But for me, I'm the most
comfortable and it's the most appropriate that you all call me "Tu
Excelencía" ... because I'm so humble, I prefer "tu" instead of
"vuestra". :)
> Thank you,
Con mucho gusto.
With great pleasure.
> Becky Jaxon
> Illinois, EE.UU.
>
> Lloyd Zusman wrote:
> >
> > [ ... la gran historia de "Vuestra Merced" -> "usted" ... ]
--
Lloyd Zusman
l...@asfast.com
Andy Axnot
Excelencía.
Andy
Lloyd Zusman <l...@asfast.com> wrote in message
news:ltitwu1...@asfast.com...
> "Andy Axnot" <axnot....@onebox.com> writes:
>
> > Hi!
> >
> > We have been watching the Brazilian telenovela, 'Xica', which is dubbed
in
> > Spanish. It is a period piece set in colonial Brazil. In any event,
most
> > of the characters address each other as "Vuestra Merced" or,
occasionally,
> > "Su Merced".
> > >
Greybeard
>We have been watching the Brazilian telenovela, 'Xica', which is dubbed in
>Spanish. It is a period piece set in colonial Brazil.
Well, everyone else has commented on "Vuestra Merced", so it's left to
me to say that I saw a Brazilian movie of the same title several years
ago -- it was fascinating. It wasn't dubbed, but subtitled (in
English); this was a great help, as my Spanish was of very little help
in understanding Brazilian Portuguese. I suppose the series is based
on the movie, or at least on the same story?
Regards,
Greybeard
--
El respeto al derecho ajeno es la paz.
-- Benito Juárez
Andy Axnot
Greybeard <jmes...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:d3q6hsgm0otj343e8...@4ax.com...
A great quotation for cinco de mayo.
Regarding 'Xica', I don't know what it's based on. I'll have to read the
credits more carefully next show. The story centers around a young and
attractive black woman, a slave, in a small town in colonial Brazil. In
time she becomes the (very) emancipated lover of the 'comendador' of the
area, which is given over to mining diamonds for the king of Portugal.
The show is intriguing for its use of language and for the view of life in
that place and time. For example, dinner scenes: virtually everything is
finger food, except for soup which is drunk from the bowl rather than eaten
with a spoon.
A caller at a house will stand outside and clap his hands for attention,
there being no doorbells or such.
Of course, I have no idea how accurate any of this is, but it's great fun.
The Spanish I find especially easy to follow, I'm not sure why. Perhaps
those who do the voiceovers, being selected for their voices without regard
for their looks, simply speak more clearly. Perhaps Portugese is a bit more
verbose than Spanish, allowing the dubbers time to speak more slowly. I
don't know, and I would enjoy hearing the opinions of others on this.
I do wish the show were a little less bloodthirsty. There has been quite a
lot of flogging, torturing, executing, and cutting off of body parts.
But I suppose nothing should be taken too seriously on this show, it
requires *lots* of suspension of disbelief. A few weeks ago, a young woman
wanted to elope but couldn't evade the watchful eye of her family. Xica has
her take a potent herbal tea that puts the woman into a coma so profound
everyone believes her dead. They hold a wake and funeral and bury her.
Xica disinters her just as she comes out of the coma. The woman and her
fiance elope.
Yeah... but it's fun.
Andy
Claudia B.
Andy Axnot <axnot....@onebox.com> writes
>
>Regarding 'Xica', I don't know what it's based on. I'll have to read the
>credits more carefully next show. The story centers around a young and
>attractive black woman, a slave, in a small town in colonial Brazil. In
>time she becomes the (very) emancipated lover of the 'comendador' of the
>area, which is given over to mining diamonds for the king of Portugal.
As far as I know its based on a true story. Her name was Xica da Silva
and she was a slave that was the lover of the comendador and became very
powerful and rich indeed. White people found subversive and awful and
they complained to the king of Portugal until he ... (do you really want
to know the end? :)
>A caller at a house will stand outside and clap his hands for attention,
>there being no doorbells or such.
People still do that in the country where there's no doorbells.
>
>Of course, I have no idea how accurate any of this is, but it's great fun.
It's a fictionalise story based in true fact which made the soap more
interesting. I do like Brazilians soaps and I miss them a lot, have you
seen Roque Santeiro? That was my favourite.
>I do wish the show were a little less bloodthirsty. There has been quite a
>lot of flogging, torturing, executing, and cutting off of body parts.
Well... that's the part when the writers tried to be true to fact. :)
Claudia B.
Greybeard
<Cla...@el-duende.demon.co.uk> wrote in alt.usage.spanish:
>In article <a55R4.41665$PV.28...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
>Andy Axnot <axnot....@onebox.com> writes
>>
>>Regarding 'Xica', I don't know what it's based on. I'll have to read the
>>credits more carefully next show. The story centers around a young and
>>attractive black woman, a slave, in a small town in colonial Brazil. In
>>time she becomes the (very) emancipated lover of the 'comendador' of the
>>area, which is given over to mining diamonds for the king of Portugal.
>
>As far as I know its based on a true story. Her name was Xica da Silva
>and she was a slave that was the lover of the comendador and became very
>powerful and rich indeed. White people found subversive and awful and
>they complained to the king of Portugal until he ... (do you really want
>to know the end? :)
Several years ago (1980s?) there was a Brazilian movie on the same
theme. I don't recall much now, except that Xica was quite liberated
and scandalized everyone.
I went to the movie hoping to able to understand Brazilian Portuguese
through its similarity with Spanish. No joy there. I had to depend
on the subtitles. I'm sure I missed a lot.