use of sein, werden, and gewesen - confused.
macForMore
"werden" as "becoming, is getting, getting, is being".
But I saw a quote from a website, after unsubscribing to spam email,
that read: "Ihr Profil wurde deaktiviert". My first thought was to
translate as "Your profile became deactivated", but google translates
it as "has been deactivated".
I thought "has been" was "ist worden"... as in, "Ihr Profil ist
deaktiviert worden". What's wrong with this?
I'm also confused with how to use gewesen. Why could I not say, "Ihr
Profil ist deaktiviert gewesen" ?
Many thanks,
GFH
"Werden" is a multifunction word. It means "to become", but it is
used
for the future tense (Germans do not use this tense a lot; they use
the
present, as in "I go to Chicago tomorrow.); the passive; and the
subjunctive.
It is not clear to me what difference in meaning you find between
"became"
and "has been".
GFH
Einde O'Callaghan
1. The passive is formed in German with "werden" but in English with
"be" - "has been deactivated" is a passive structure, hence "ist
deaktiviert worden" would be possible.
2. However, the usage of the "perfekt" and the "pr�teritum" or
"Imperfekt" in German is different form the use of the "present perfect"
and the "past simple" in English. The German "Perfekt" often corresponds
to the English "past simple", whereas sometimes the English "present
perfect" corresponds to the German "Pr�sens", the German "Perfekt" or,
as in the case in question, the German "Pr�teritum".
The exact rules in both langaugesc are quite complex - I recommend
consulting both a good English grammar book and a good German grammar
book - if English is your native language then you might find some help
in "Hammer's German Grammar and Usage".
Einde O'Callaghan
Christian Weisgerber
> I've been listening to Michel Thomas German, and he translates
> "werden" as "becoming, is getting, getting, is being".
Yes.
Translation doesn't proceed word by word. You need to read and
understand a sentence (in context) and then re-express its meaning
in the target language.
> But I saw a quote from a website, after unsubscribing to spam email,
> that read: "Ihr Profil wurde deaktiviert". My first thought was to
> translate as "Your profile became deactivated", but google translates
> it as "has been deactivated".
Google's suggestion is correct.
"Werden" can serve
* as a full verb with a basic meaning of "to become" (in some
contexts idiomatic English will substitute a different verb such
as "to grow");
* as an auxiliary for forming future tense and conditional;
* as an auxiliary for forming the passive voice; English primarily
uses "to be" for his, in colloquial language also "to get" (e.g.
"we got beaten").
> I thought "has been" was "ist worden"... as in, "Ihr Profil ist
> deaktiviert worden". What's wrong with this?
Nothing. Both "Ihr Profil wurde deaktiviert" and "Ihr Profil ist
deaktiviert worden" are pretty much synonymous in German.
There are two difficulties here...
(I)
The English past tense and present perfect have different meanings:
"we deactivated the profile" is not the same as "we have deactivated
the profile". By contrast, the German past tense and present perfect
are largely exchangeable in meaning, and which English tense they
need to be translated to depends on context.
(II)
Eventive versus stative passive voice.
German makes the distinction by using different auxiliary verbs:
"Das Profil wird deaktiviert." (eventive, "werden")
"Das Profil ist deaktiviert." (stative, "sein")
English only uses "to be" to form both kinds of passive voice:
"Those profiles are deactivated."
* This is usually taken as stative. The profiles are in the
deactivated state.
"Those profiles are being deactivated."
* This is an ongoing event. The profiles are not yet in the
deactivated state.
But while English can use the continuous form to make this distinction,
things are tricky:
"Those profiles are deactivated by us."
* This is also eventive. Adding an agent turned a stative phrase
into an eventive, without any change to the verb forms.
The combination of a perfect tense and passive voice is inherently
eventive (at least in this example):
"Those profiles have been deactivated."
> I'm also confused with how to use gewesen. Why could I not say, "Ihr
> Profil ist deaktiviert gewesen" ?
Because that's a stative passive:
Your profile was (already) deactivated.
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber na...@mips.inka.de
Joachim Pense
>
>> I'm also confused with how to use gewesen. Why could I not say, "Ihr
>> Profil ist deaktiviert gewesen" ?
>
> Because that's a stative passive:
> Your profile was (already) deactivated.
>
And it doesn't make any comment on the current status (is it still
deacivated or not?).
Joachim
--
My favourite # 11: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKA5jY2S05g>
My favourite # 21: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CO0f2Yb7DAY>
Helmut Richter
> There are two difficulties here...
>
> (I)
> The English past tense and present perfect have different meanings:
> "we deactivated the profile" is not the same as "we have deactivated
> the profile". By contrast, the German past tense and present perfect
> are largely exchangeable in meaning, and which English tense they
> need to be translated to depends on context.
The usage *is* different between English and German but there is also an
important similarity: *Both* in English and German, the present perfect is
primarily used for actions having happened in the past that have a bearing
for the situation at present. *Both* "the profile was deactivated" and
"das Profil wurde deaktiviert" say nothing about the impact at present
while *both* "the profile has been deactivated" and "das Profil ist
deaktiviert worden" have an additional meaning that now the profile is
deactivated.
The biggest difference is how to look at actions starting in the past and
continuing until now. The English speaker looks first and foremost at the
past with its impact on the present: "the machine has been in operation
for two weeks". The German speaker looks first and foremost at the
present: "Die Maschine ist seit zwei Wochen in Betrieb."
But in situations other than the one of the last paragraph, usage is often
similar, with a little *more* usage of present perfect in German than in
English when in doubt.
Moreover, present perfect is often substituted for past tense in German
colloquial speech, in Southern Germany more often so than in the North.
This is not a difference in meaning or emphasis but in language register
-- as will be noticed when this substitution disappears in written
language.
> (II)
> Eventive versus stative passive voice.
This is a very important distinction which is unrelated with the preceding
item.
--
Helmut Richter
UC
It's simple. Some verbs take 'haben' and some take 'sein'. The ones
that take 'sein' use 'gewesen' and the ones that take 'haben' use
'geworden'.
UC
Er starb (he died)
Er ist gestorben (he has died; or he's dead).
Man had ihn getoetet (someone killed him).
Er wurde getoetet (he was killed).
Er ist getoetet geworden (he has been killed).
Andy
<bbde932a-2025-4aaa...@q16g2000yqq.googlegroups.com>, GFH
<geo...@ankerstein.org> wrote[
>> But I saw a quote from a website, after unsubscribing to spam email,
>> that read: "Ihr Profil wurde deaktiviert". �My first thought was to
>> translate as "Your profile became deactivated", but google translates
>> it as "has been deactivated".
>It is not clear to me what difference in meaning you find between
>"became"
>and "has been".
>
for some unintended reason, unexpected cause etc - eg a computer crash.
"Has been deactivated" suggests the deliberate act of a human (possibly
through the agency of a program), with a slight flavour of "you have
broken our rules and are to be punished".
--
Andy Taylor [Editor, Austrian Philatelic Society].
Visit <URL:http://www.austrianphilately.com>
Christian Weisgerber
> > I'm also confused with how to use gewesen. �Why could I not say, "Ihr
> > Profil ist deaktiviert gewesen" ?
>
> It's simple. Some verbs take 'haben' and some take 'sein'.
For forming the perfect tenses.
> The ones that take 'sein' use 'gewesen' and the ones that take
> 'haben' use 'geworden'.
This doesn't make any sense.
Helmut Richter
> Er starb (he died)
>
> Er ist gestorben (he has died; or he's dead).
>
> Man had ihn getoetet (someone killed him).
>
> Er wurde getoetet (he was killed).
>
> Er ist getoetet geworden (he has been killed).
Er ist get�tet *worden*.
--
Helmut Richter
UC
> On Sat, 20 Feb 2010, UC wrote:
> > Er starb (he died)
>
> > Er ist gestorben (he has died; or he's dead).
>
> > Man had ihn getoetet (someone killed him).
>
> > Er wurde getoetet (he was killed).
>
> > Er ist getoetet geworden (he has been killed).
>
>
> --
> Helmut Richter
Richtig.
Tom P
> I've been listening to Michel Thomas German, and he translates
> "werden" as "becoming, is getting, getting, is being".
>
> But I saw a quote from a website, after unsubscribing to spam email,
> that read: "Ihr Profil wurde deaktiviert". My first thought was to
> translate as "Your profile became deactivated", but google translates
> it as "has been deactivated".
The problem is the English language, not the German language. There is
no continuous past tense that can be meaningfully used. If you said
"your profile was becoming deactivated", people would assume you are
being German <g>.
UC
> > Er starb (he died)
>
> > Er ist gestorben (he has died; or he's dead).
>
> > Man had ihn getoetet (someone killed him).
>
> > Er wurde getoetet (he was killed).
>
> > Er ist getoetet geworden (he has been killed).
>
>
> --
> Helmut Richter
Yes, I realized this too late. My error!
nipand...@gmail.com
nipand...@gmail.com
Michael Pachta
Otherwise, a "follow-up to" set for this newsgroup is completely senseless.
M.