Preiselbeeren
Gordon or Connie Marigold
Hello,
Does anyone happen to know what Preiselbeeren are in English and
if they are even found in the United States or Canada? Please don't tell
me what the dictionary says: it says "cranberries, bilberries,
whortleberries". Cranberries they are NOT; bilberries they are not
unless there is a different kind of bilberry than the ones in Ontario
where I grew up. I have no idea what a "whortleberry" is. Preiselbeeren
are very common in Germany, served with "gebackenes Camembert", various
kinds of "Braten" etc. Cranberries are native to North America as far as
I know and I wonder if Preiselbeeren are native only to Europe or ...?
Any ideas?
Connie
Jens Walter Heckmann
Am 26. Mai 1996 schrieb Connie Marigold <mari...@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>:
>
> Does anyone happen to know what Preiselbeeren are in English and
> if they are even found in the United States or Canada?
Unfortunately, I don't know what "Preiselbeeren" are in English, but I can
tell you how they are classified, so you might be able to look them up in
a guidebook about botany (or ask in sci.bio.botany):
In systematical botany (based upon the work of Linne), "Preiselbeeren"
are called "vaccinium vitis-idaea". They belong to the group "vaccinium"
of the family "monotropaceae"; other berries of the same group are
"Heidelbeeren" (also called "Blaubeeren") ("vaccinium myrtillus"),
"Moorbeeren" ("vaccinium uliginosum") and "Moosbeeren" ("vaccinium
oxycoccos").
In French, "Preiselbeeren" are called "airelles rouges"; maybe you can
find out in a French-Canadian encyclopedia if they exist in northern
America.
Hope this helps ...
Jens W. Heckmann
Thorsten Meinecke
'gcm>' := Gordon or Connie Marigold <mari...@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>
gcm> Does anyone happen to know what Preiselbeeren are in English and
gcm> if they are even found in the United States or Canada?
gcm> [dictionary says:] "cranberries, bilberries, whortleberries".
gcm> Cranberries they are NOT;
Aren't they? That's the same etymon as in German "Kronsbeere",
which is another word for "Preiselbeere", Vaccinium vitis-idaea,
and of Low German origin. It denotes an evergreen variety of
heath (Ericaceae), and is related to the whortleberry or blue-
berry shrub ("Heidelbeere, Blaubeere", Vaccinium myrtillus).
gcm> bilberries they are not
gcm> unless there is a different kind of bilberry than the ones in Ontario
gcm> where I grew up. I have no idea what a "whortleberry" is.
AFAIK bilberries aren't found in Europe. Maybe someone from the
UK can comment on the BE names of the plants in question.
gcm> Cranberries are native to North America as far as
gcm> I know and I wonder if Preiselbeeren are native only to Europe or ...?
*My* dictionary says about cranberry: ...the bright red sour berry
of any of several trailing plants related to the blueberry.
Sounds certainly like "Preiselbeere" to me.
Hope this helps
(and that I didn't got it wrong, botanically),
--Thorsten
[posted and mailed]
M. Murray
Thorsten Meinecke (kae...@aglaia.snafu.de) wrote:
: 'gcm>' := Gordon or Connie Marigold <mari...@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>
: gcm> Does anyone happen to know what Preiselbeeren are in English and
: gcm> if they are even found in the United States or Canada?
: gcm> [dictionary says:] "cranberries, bilberries, whortleberries".
: gcm> Cranberries they are NOT;
: Aren't they? That's the same etymon as in German "Kronsbeere",
: which is another word for "Preiselbeere", Vaccinium vitis-idaea,
: and of Low German origin. It denotes an evergreen variety of
: heath (Ericaceae), and is related to the whortleberry or blue-
: berry shrub ("Heidelbeere, Blaubeere", Vaccinium myrtillus).
I have always believed Preiselbeeren were cranberries. Interesting that
the stronger the vehemence of an assertion ("NOT" in this case) the less
the likelihood of any supporting evidence being supplied.
: gcm> bilberries they are not
: gcm> unless there is a different kind of bilberry than the ones in Ontario
: gcm> where I grew up. I have no idea what a "whortleberry" is.
: AFAIK bilberries aren't found in Europe. Maybe someone from the
: UK can comment on the BE names of the plants in question.
Amazing. Bilberries are very common in Europe, particularly in Germany,
where they are known as Heidelbeeren. Blueberries are the North American
equivalent, somewhat larger, but taste almost identical.
: gcm> Cranberries are native to North America as far as
: gcm> I know and
I wonder if Preiselbeeren are native only to Europe or ...?
: *My* dictionary says about cranberry: ...the bright red sour berry
: of any of several trailing plants related to the blueberry.
: Sounds certainly like "Preiselbeere" to me.
The reference to cranberries growing on trailing plants makes me wonder
whether there is a difference between N.American cranberries and European
Preiselbeeren like the blueberry/bilberry difference. Cranberries in
N.America grow floating on water, at least they do in the cranberry bogs
of New England I've visited.
: Hope this helps : (and that I didn't got it wrong, botanically),
: --Thorsten
--
Martin Murray :: School of Chemistry, Bristol University, BS8 1TS, England
Gordon or Connie Marigold
Dear everybody,
Well, I did open a can of worms didn't I? I should have expected
it, too, as I have spent many hours trying to explain different types of
berries to various friends in Germany, France, Canada etc. If you ever
want some fun, try to explain the difference between blackberries, black
raspberries, and thimbleberries to people from various countries. No, I
don't want to bring it up here!
Thanks to all who answered the Preiselbeeren query, both
privately and to the group. It was fascinating to read the responses.
Sorry some of you thought I was being too vehement--I obviously should
have said "North American cranberries they are not". And they really
aren't. But they obviously are related. Someone pointed out that North
American ones usually grow in bogs; European ones obviously on moors.
Heidelbeeren/Blaubeeren/blueberries pose no particular problem; the
bilberry question does. Bilberries, at least in Ontario, are red,
not blue, grow on high bushes, look like a cherry, and taste much like
cherries when baked in pies. They don't look or taste like blueberries.
I was most interested in the botanical answers because that shows
what is actually related. I am beginning to think that methods of
preparation etc. may play the greatest part of all in the
cranberry/Preiselbeeren controversy. All I can say is that, heretic that
I am, I dislike North American cranberries in any form: juice, jelly,
sauce etc., but I very much like Preiselbeeren in Germany. I also know
the French "airelles rouges" but they also do not seem to resemble North
American cranberries. Climate, preparation, culture etc. all seem to play
a part in this discussion.
Thanks to all who wrote.
Connie (mari...@uiuc.edu)
Juergen Reinold
ime-Version: 1.0
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X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.5
In article <4oa5aj$3...@aglaia.snafu.DE>, kae...@aglaia.snafu.de says...
>
>gcm> Cranberries are native to North America as far as
>gcm> I know and I wonder if Preiselbeeren are native only to Europe or ...?
>
>*My* dictionary says about cranberry: ...the bright red sour berry
>of any of several trailing plants related to the blueberry.
>
>Sounds certainly like "Preiselbeere" to me.
>
I just talked to my wide and she says that cranberries are the US
equivalent to Preisselbeeren. Since we moved here to Phoenix, she
uses cranberries whenever a recipe requires Preisselbeeren.
Best regards,
Juergen Reinold
System Architect
Windows NT System Engineering
Motorola Computer Group Email: juergen...@mcg.mot.com
2900 South Diablo Way Tel : +1 (602) 438-3078
Tempe, Az 85282, USA Fax : +1 (602) 438-6154
Mail drop: DW220 Pager: +1 (800) SKY-PAGE Pin# 585-6207
+1 (601) 960-9560 Pin# 585-6207
Disclaimer: Opinions expressed are strictly my own.
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key things are doable that are not provable' -- Bob Galvin
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Jens Walter Heckmann
Am 26. Mai 1996 schrieb kae...@aglaia.snafu.de (Thorsten Meinecke):
>
> gcm> Does anyone happen to know what Preiselbeeren are in English
>
>
> Aren't they? That's the same etymon as in German "Kronsbeere",
> which is another word for "Preiselbeere", Vaccinium vitis-idaea,
> and of Low German origin.
Cranberries are definitely different from "Preiselbeeren". About
5 years ago, I visited Ocean Spray's 'Cranberry world' visitors
center in Plymouth, Ma., and the berries they process there are
no "Preiselbeeren".
However, I don't know what they understand by "cranberry" in
Great Britain; this may not be the same thing as what the
Americans understand by it. The meaning of such a word can
change when people move to a new place where the thing itself
doesn't exist, and the word may then be used for something
similar instead.
Therefore, rather use 'vaccinium vitis-idaea' as a starting
point.
Jens W. Heckmann
Gordon or Connie Marigold
>
> Cranberries are definitely different from "Preiselbeeren". About
> 5 years ago, I visited Ocean Spray's 'Cranberry world' visitors
> center in Plymouth, Ma., and the berries they process there are
> no "Preiselbeeren".
>
> However, I don't know what they understand by "cranberry" in
> Great Britain; this may not be the same thing as what the
> Americans understand by it. The meaning of such a word can
> change when people move to a new place where the thing itself
> doesn't exist, and the word may then be used for something
> similar instead.
>
> Therefore, rather use 'vaccinium vitis-idaea' as a starting
> point.
>
> Jens W. Heckmann
>
Jens, I agree with you. My problem was to explain to American
friends what they had eaten with their "Gebackenes Camembert" in Germany.
There is no point in telling them that they had eaten
cranberries--Preiselbeeren are obviously related but they certainly do
not taste the same, or grow the same. So, I guess there is no real answer.
I was just curious enough to post the query. Thanks to all.
Connie (mari...@uiuc.edu)
Thorsten Meinecke
'hjw>' := Jens Walter Heckmann <h...@axime-is.fr>
hjw> Am 26. Mai 1996 schrieb kae...@aglaia.snafu.de (Thorsten Meinecke):
> > gcm> Cranberries they are NOT;
> > Aren't they? That's the same etymon as in German "Kronsbeere",
> > which is another word for "Preiselbeere", Vaccinium vitis-idaea,
> > and of Low German origin.
hjw> Cranberries are definitely different from "Preiselbeeren".
I thought we had already established that this sentence should read:
_North American_ cranberries are different from "Preiselbeeren".
hjw> However, I don't know what they understand by "cranberry" in
hjw> Great Britain; this may not be the same thing as what the
hjw> Americans understand by it. The meaning of such a word can
hjw> change when people move to a new place where the thing itself
hjw> doesn't exist, and the word may then be used for something
hjw> similar instead.
Yep. That might have been the way how this very word came from
the dwelling grounds of the continental anglo-saxons to the British
islands, where it still means the European cranberry. After being
transplanted to America, the word obtained a new meaning, since
there was no such plant, only a similar one.
hjw> Therefore, rather use 'vaccinium vitis-idaea' as a starting
hjw> point.
The results of a search for the botanical term on Alta Vista deepen
the confusion considerably: Lingonberry, Cowberry, Mountain cranberry,
Lingberry, Rock cranberry, Foxberry, Whimberry, Partridgeberry. (BTW
there are even nurseries who offer V. vitis-idaea to the American
gardener).
Another bit of trivia: While the etymology of cranberry is obviously
connected to that of the bird's name, the German "Preiselbeere" is
said to stem from Slavic origins -- from Old Slavic "obrusiti", to
tear off, because the ripe berries are easily stripped from the shrubs.
If anyone needs to know: the Czech say "brusinky" for "Preiselbeeren",
and the plant's name in Poland is "Bórowka brusznica".
Hope this confuses^H^H^H^H^Hhelps,
--Thorsten
gfra...@gmail.com
gfra...@gmail.com
> Hello,
> Does anyone happen to know what Preiselbeeren are in English and
> if they are even found in the United States or Canada? Please don't tell
> me what the dictionary says: it says "cranberries, bilberries,
> whortleberries". Cranberries they are NOT; bilberries they are not
> are very common in Germany, served with "gebackenes Camembert", various
>
> Connie
Red Currants
Diedrich Ehlerding
>> Does anyone happen to know what Preiselbeeren are in English and
>> if they are even found in the United States or Canada?
> Red Currants
No. The berries look a bit similar, but not the same; and they taste
differently. "Red currants" are (botanically) Ribes rubrum; cf.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redcurrant; in German "rote Johannisbeere".
"Preiselbeeren" are relatives of blueberries; botanically:
Vaccinium vitis-idaea. They seem to grow also in Northern America - at
least if I believe what
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccinium_vitis-idaea
tells me (which also knows an English name: lingonberry).
Diedrich
--
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HTML-Mail wird ungeleſen entſorgt.
Helmut Richter
>> Does anyone happen to know what Preiselbeeren are in English and
>> if they are even found in the United States or Canada? Please don't tell
>> me what the dictionary says: it says "cranberries, bilberries,
>> whortleberries". Cranberries they are NOT; bilberries they are not
>> unless there is a different kind of bilberry than the ones in Ontario
>> where I grew up. I have no idea what a "whortleberry" is. Preiselbeeren
>> are very common in Germany, served with "gebackenes Camembert", various
>> kinds of "Braten" etc. Cranberries are native to North America as far as
>> I know and I wonder if Preiselbeeren are native only to Europe or ...?
>> Any ideas?
>>
>> Connie
>
> Red Currants
"Ribes" and thus akin to white and black currants and to gooseberries.
Their German names are "rote/weiße/schwarze Johannisbeere" (from St.
John's day on June 24 when the first are ripe) and "Stachelbeere" (from
the prickles on the shrub). In Austria the name is "Ribisl" (from Ribes)
instead of "Johannisbeere", in Switzerland "Meertrübeli".
"Preiselbeere" is of the genus "Vaccinium" and thus akin to many other
berries, among them cranberries, although not the *same* as cranberry.
The German Wikipedia entry "Preiselbeere" has a link to English WP
"Vaccinium vitis-idaea" but I do not know which of the many berries,
each of which has many names with overlapping meaning, is the right one.
Anyhow, "cranberry" may not be 100% accurate but certainly more accurate
than "red currant".
--
Helmut Richter
Oliver Cromm
> gfra...@gmail.com meinte:
>
>>> Does anyone happen to know what Preiselbeeren are in English and
>>> if they are even found in the United States or Canada?
> [...]
>> Red Currants
>
> No. The berries look a bit similar, but not the same; and they taste
> differently. "Red currants" are (botanically) Ribes rubrum; cf.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redcurrant; in German "rote Johannisbeere".
>
> "Preiselbeeren" are relatives of blueberries; botanically:
> Vaccinium vitis-idaea. They seem to grow also in Northern America - at
> least if I believe what
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccinium_vitis-idaea
> tells me (which also knows an English name: lingonberry).
French, "airelles rouges"):
<http://www.ikea.com/ca/en/catalog/categories/departments/food/25216/>
They serve the stuff with their popular meatballs.
--
If the aeroplane industry had advanced at the same rate as the
computer industry, today's planes could circumnavigate the world
in ten seconds, be two inches long, and crash twice a day.
Peter Moylan in alt.usage.english
Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
> >>> Does anyone happen to know what Preiselbeeren are in English and
> >>> if they are even found in the United States or Canada?
> > [...]
> >> Red Currants
> >
> > No. The berries look a bit similar, but not the same; and they taste
> > differently. "Red currants" are (botanically) Ribes rubrum; cf.
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redcurrant; in German "rote Johannisbeere".
> > "Preiselbeeren" are relatives of blueberries; botanically:
> > Vaccinium vitis-idaea. They seem to grow also in Northern America - at
> > least if I believe what
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccinium_vitis-idaea
> > tells me (which also knows an English name: lingonberry).
> Ikea here in Canada sells "SYLT LINGON", lingonberry jam (In
> French, "airelles rouges"):
Sweden, both as part of a smörgåsbord and...
> <http://www.ikea.com/ca/en/catalog/categories/departments/food/25216/>
>
> They serve the stuff with their popular meatballs.
Diedrich Ehlerding
> I'm no botanist, but since becoming acquainted with /Preiselbeeren/,
> I've always thought of them as cranberries. Before encountering the
> terms in newsgroups, I'd never heard of lingonberries, cowberries, etc.
Cranberry (Vaccinium macrocarpon) is also a close relative of
"Preiselbeere", and indeed, it tastes quite similar. It is for sure a far
better translation than "red currant".
For the details, cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccinium_macrocarpon
Common names for fruit, vegetables etc. may differ regionallly. In the
case of "PPreiselbeeren", I can imagine that "linginberry" is perhaps
known in Britain, but may be less frequent in Northern America - maybe
because (just a guess) in Northern Americas their relatives "cranberries"
may be more frequent.
Therefore I simply mentioned the botanical name - wchich should resolve
any ambiguities of commen names.
Helmut Richter
> But it is possible that Preiselbeeren are not cranberries
> from the point of view of a botanist, to whom
>
> a Mooselbeere is a cranberry and
> a Preiselbeere is a lingonberry.
And do not forget that names of plants and their fruits are very often
regionally diverse with overlapping meanings. Example from
"Preiselbeere" in the German WP:
Die Preiselbeere (Vaccinium vitis-idaea), veraltet Preißelbeere, ist
eine Pflanzenart aus der Gattung der Heidelbeeren (Vaccinium). Sie ist
in Eurasien und Nordamerika weit verbreitet. Viele volkstümliche Namen
belegen ihre weite Verbreitung und Nutzung in Mitteleuropa, wie in
Nordwest-Deutschland Kronsbeere, in West- (Tirol, Salzburg) und
Südost-Österreich Grante, in Südost-Deutschland Moosbeere,[1] auch
Riffelbeere[2] oder Grestling.
So in SE Germany, it is called "Moosbeere". In my family, the word
"Moosbeere" denotes a cognate but different berry, to wit one of those
found in the German WP under "Moosbeeren" (the Preiselbeere is *not* one
of them!).
You can do this with many German botanic names: a "Butterblume" can be
any of five different flowers which have not much more in common than
their yellowish colour.
It would be a nice game: who finds the longest chain a[0], ..., a[n] of
plant names with the relation "a[i] is also called a[i+1]". The relation
is not transitive, though.
--
Helmut Richter
tomash...@gmail.com
Hope this helps.
Tomas
cwoo...@gmail.com
> Hello,
> me what the dictionary says: it says "cranberries, bilberries,
> whortleberries". Cranberries they are NOT; bilberries they are not
> unless there is a different kind of bilberry than the ones in Ontario
> where I grew up. I have no idea what a "whortleberry" is. Preiselbeeren
> are very common in Germany, served with "gebackenes Camembert", various
> kinds of "Braten" etc. Cranberries are native to North America as far as
> I know and I wonder if Preiselbeeren are native only to Europe or ...?
> Any ideas?
>
> Connie
sand...@gmail.com
sand...@gmail.com
Andy
<sne...@sympatico.ca> wrote
[
>
>Interesting. You replied to a 20+ year old post.
>
I know I'm getting old, but I'm pretty sure I recall this discussion
from 7-8 years ago. Perhaps it's an extension of Kletz Hypothesis: any
industrial accident is repeated as soon as the report from last time is
discarded as no longer relevant.
--
Andy Taylor [Editor, Austrian Philatelic Society].
Visit www dot austrianphilately dot com>
waup...@yahoo.com
1) go to the German Wikipedia
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Hauptseite
2) Write "Preiselbeere" (or whatever) in the search box.
3) When the results appear, go to the list of languages on the left, and click on English.
daniel...@gmail.com
whyg...@gmail.com
> Hello,
> Does anyone happen to know what Preiselbeeren are in English and
> if they are even found in the United States or Canada? Please don't tell
> me what the dictionary says: it says "cranberries, bilberries,
> whortleberries". Cranberries they are NOT; bilberries they are not
> unless there is a different kind of bilberry than the ones in Ontario
> where I grew up. I have no idea what a "whortleberry" is. Preiselbeeren
> are very common in Germany, served with "gebackenes Camembert", various
> kinds of "Braten" etc. Cranberries are native to North America as far as
> I know and I wonder if Preiselbeeren are native only to Europe or ...?
> Any ideas?
>
> Connie
julia...@gmail.com
> Hello,
> Does anyone happen to know what Preiselbeeren are in English and
> if they are even found in the United States or Canada? Please don't tell
> me what the dictionary says: it says "cranberries, bilberries,
> whortleberries". Cranberries they are NOT; bilberries they are not
> unless there is a different kind of bilberry than the ones in Ontario
> where I grew up. I have no idea what a "whortleberry" is. Preiselbeeren
> are very common in Germany, served with "gebackenes Camembert", various
> kinds of "Braten" etc. Cranberries are native to North America as far as
> I know and I wonder if Preiselbeeren are native only to Europe or ...?
> Any ideas?
>
> Connie
bruce bowser
> Hello,
> Does anyone happen to know what Preiselbeeren are in English and
> if they are even found in the United States or Canada? Please don't tell
> me what the dictionary says: it says "cranberries, bilberries,
> whortleberries".