why is it lädt and not lädet?
Gordon Birrell
With most verbs whose stems end in -d or -t, an e must be added in the
second- and third-person singular forms of the present tense, in order to
articulate the personal verb endings:
er arbeitet (rather than er arbeitt)
sie landet (rather than sie landt)
Well and good. But does anyone know why the verbs with a vowel change
from a to ä, and *only* verbs with this change, do not add the e when
their stems end with -t or -d?
E.g.,
er hält, du hältst
sie lädt, du lädst
sie rät, du rätst
Many thanks in advance for the light that anyone can shed on this!
(Also please forgive me if the diacritical marks don't make it through the
digital thicket. Whatever comes out as ä is supposed to be a-umlaut.)
--Gordon Birrell
Oliver Neukum
Because the person is sufficiently clear from the umlaut in connection
with a t-like sound at the end. The e reappears if this is not the cause
in the subjunctive:
ich lade
du ladest
er lade
In earlier stages of the German language they had an e, too, as all verbs
had an e there. At even earlier stages the had an i, which is the reason
for the umlaut.
HTH
Oliver
Peter Dy
"Gordon Birrell" <gbir...@post.cis.smu.edu> wrote in message
news:gbirrell-050...@gbirrell.clements.smu.edu...
> This question is less on usage than on (historical) grammar, but here
goes:
>
> With most verbs whose stems end in -d or -t, an e must be added in the
> second- and third-person singular forms of the present tense, in order to
> articulate the personal verb endings:
>
> er arbeitet (rather than er arbeitt)
> sie landet (rather than sie landt)
>
> Well and good. But does anyone know why the verbs with a vowel change
> from a to ä, and *only* verbs with this change, do not add the e when
> their stems end with -t or -d?
>
Don't forget:
treten - er tritt
gelten - er gilt
halten - er hielt
and others. So, I think it's those verbs with stem vowel changes.
Peter
Christian Weisgerber
> treten - er tritt
> gelten - er gilt
> halten - er hielt
halten - er hält
"hielt" is past tense.
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber na...@mips.inka.de
Thomas Schenk
>[...]
> sie landet (rather than sie landt)
>
> Well and good. But does anyone know why the verbs with a vowel change
> from a to ä, and *only* verbs with this change, do not add the e when
> their stems end with -t or -d?
Your premise is only partly correct. There are two major groups of
verbs in German: (1) regular verbs and (2) irregular verbs, of which
the strong verbs ("Verben mit Ablaut") are one type. Regular weak
verbs such as "arbeiten" are conjugated predictably and uniformly,
with no change in the root vowel of the stem syllable of the verb.
Weak verbs almost always have "-est" in the 2nd per. sing. and "-et"
in the indicative 3rd person singular. Strong verbs have "-st" or
"-t". This differentiation of weak and strong verbs has been going
on in German since the 8th century, but no new strong verbs have
been formed in the language in modern times, i.e., the tendency is
to weak or regular conjuagation of new verbs.
Strong verbs are characterized by a change (mutation) of the stem
vowel of the infinitive in the 2nd and 3rd person singular. These
verbs omit the "e" of 2nd and 3rd pers. sing. endings. This is
characteristic of *all* strong verbs, not just those ending in -t or
-d, and not just those that mutate from "a" to "ä".
Further information about the historical development of mutated
vowels will be found in books on German linguistic development or
philology.
Tom
Peter Dy
"Christian Weisgerber" <na...@mips.inka.de> wrote in message
news:8f3p9l$86v$1...@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de...
> Peter Dy <pet...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> > treten - er tritt
> > gelten - er gilt
> > halten - er hielt
>
> halten - er hält
> "hielt" is past tense.
>
Oops! Yes, of course. Don't know how I did that. Well, it was late when I
wrote that message.
Peter
Peter Dy
wrote what. Anyone know why?
"Thomas Schenk" <toms...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:391592FF...@earthlink.net...
Gordon Birrell wrote:
>[...]
> er arbeitet (rather than er arbeitt)
> sie landet (rather than sie landt)
>
> Well and good. But does anyone know why the verbs with a vowel change
> from a to ä, and *only* verbs with this change, do not add the e when
> their stems end with -t or -d?
Your premise is only partly correct. There are two major groups of
verbs in German: (1) regular verbs and (2) irregular verbs, of which
the strong verbs ("Verben mit Ablaut") are one type. Regular weak
verbs such as "arbeiten" are conjugated predictably and uniformly,
with no change in the root vowel of the stem syllable of the verb.
Weak verbs almost always have "-est" in the 2nd per. sing. and "-et"
in the indicative 3rd person singular. Strong verbs have "-st" or
"-t". This differentiation of weak and strong verbs has been going
on in German since the 8th century, but no new strong verbs have
been formed in the language in modern times, i.e., the tendency is
to weak or regular conjuagation of new verbs.
-->Where do you get this from? Weak verbs have the same endings in the
present indicative as strong verbs, ie: -e, -st, -t, -en, -t, -en. So the
2nd and 3rd person singular of a weak verb like "studieren" is: du
studier-st, er studier-t. Weak verbs only have "-est" and "-et" in the same
environments as strong verbs do.
Strong verbs are characterized by a change (mutation) of the stem
vowel of the infinitive in the 2nd and 3rd person singular. These
verbs omit the "e" of 2nd and 3rd pers. sing. endings. This is
characteristic of *all* strong verbs, not just those ending in -t or
-d, and not just those that mutate from "a" to "ä".
-->I think you are confusing Ablaut with Umlaut. Strong verbs use Ablaut, a
morphologically conditioned change, to differentiate present, past
(Präteritum), and the past participle. The changes in 2nd and 3rd person
singular you speak of are Umlaut--changes based on the vowels in unstressed
sylablles which followed, as Oliver Neukum explained in his post. Also,
they don't all omit the "e". For example, in the strong verb "finden" we
have: du find-est, er find-et. Just like for "treten," "gelten,".....
[...]
Peter
Peter Dy
Also,
> they don't all omit the "e". For example, in the strong verb "finden" we
> have: du find-est, er find-et. Just like for "treten," "gelten,".....
>
Sorry, treten and gelten were examples of just the opposite!
Peter
Thomas Schenk
>
> Can't get Tom's post, and only Tom's post, to format properly to show who
> wrote what. Anyone know why?
Yes! Because I cancelled it myself as oon as I realized that what I
had written was pure nonsense. Unfortunately, cancelling a message
in a newsgroup is a less-than-perfect technique, and a certain
number of news servers are fleet enough to pick a posting up
instantaneously, even if cancelled almost immediately. Therefore, I
knew that someone's response with your thouhts would inevitably be
forthcoming.
>
> "Thomas Schenk" <toms...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:391592FF...@earthlink.net...
> Gordon Birrell wrote:
> >[...]
> > er arbeitet (rather than er arbeitt)
> > sie landet (rather than sie landt)
> >
> > Well and good. But does anyone know why the verbs with a vowel change
> > from a to ä, and *only* verbs with this change, do not add the e when
> > their stems end with -t or -d?
>
> Your premise is only partly correct. There are two major groups of
> verbs in German: (1) regular verbs and (2) irregular verbs, of which
> the strong verbs ("Verben mit Ablaut") are one type. Regular weak
> verbs such as "arbeiten" are conjugated predictably and uniformly,
> with no change in the root vowel of the stem syllable of the verb.
> Weak verbs almost always have "-est" in the 2nd per. sing. and "-et"
> in the indicative 3rd person singular. Strong verbs have "-st" or
> "-t". This differentiation of weak and strong verbs has been going
> on in German since the 8th century, but no new strong verbs have
> been formed in the language in modern times, i.e., the tendency is
> to weak or regular conjuagation of new verbs.
>
> -->Where do you get this from?
Who can say? My theory clearly needs re-thinking, however.
> Weak verbs have the same endings in the
> present indicative as strong verbs, ie: -e, -st, -t, -en, -t, -en. So the
> 2nd and 3rd person singular of a weak verb like "studieren" is: du
> studier-st, er studier-t. Weak verbs only have "-est" and "-et" in the same
> environments as strong verbs do.
That is completely correct. But I had to "hit the books" to
determine just what determines that environment.
> Strong verbs are characterized by a change (mutation) of the stem
> vowel of the infinitive in the 2nd and 3rd person singular. These
> verbs omit the "e" of 2nd and 3rd pers. sing. endings. This is
> characteristic of *all* strong verbs, not just those ending in -t or
> -d, and not just those that mutate from "a" to "ä".
>
> -->I think you are confusing Ablaut with Umlaut.
No, that part isn't confused. I wasn't trying to suggest that
umlauting the second and third person singular is what determined
that a verb is "strong". A shift or mutation in vowel in the past
tense and past participle is characteristic of a strong verb, i.e.,
"Verben mit Ablaut". In retrospect, however, I see your point. The
part abou it being "characteristic of "all strong verbs" is, of
course pure poppycock and a fabrication of my own.
> Strong verbs use Ablaut, a
> morphologically conditioned change, to differentiate present, past
> (Präteritum), and the past participle. The changes in 2nd and 3rd person
> singular you speak of are Umlaut--changes based on the vowels in unstressed
> sylablles which followed, as Oliver Neukum explained in his post. Also,
> they don't all omit the "e". For example, in the strong verb "finden" we
> have: du find-est, er find-et. Just like for "treten," "gelten,".....
Let me try one more time, after having had a cup of coffee to clear
my brain (and having cheated by looking it up) what determines the
distinction between "-est", "-st", "-et", and "-t" endings in the
2nd and 3rd pers. singular:
Verbs with stems ending in "t" or "d" or in "m" or "n" (if preceded
by a consonant other than "l" or "r") add a linking "e"; and in the
case of the past tense of weak verbs, before the "-te".
(du arbeitest, er findet, du fandest, es regnete, sie lernt, du
filmst, du atmest, er singt, du lädst, etc.).
> Peter
Tom
Peter Dy
Peter Dy wrote:
>
> Can't get Tom's post, and only Tom's post, to format properly to show who
> wrote what. Anyone know why?
Yes! Because I cancelled it myself as oon as I realized that what I
had written was pure nonsense. Unfortunately, cancelling a message
in a newsgroup is a less-than-perfect technique, and a certain
number of news servers are fleet enough to pick a posting up
instantaneously, even if cancelled almost immediately. Therefore, I
knew that someone's response with your thouhts would inevitably be
forthcoming.
--->Hi Tom! Did you cancel this message too? I can't get it to format
again. I tested it just now with other messages and they formated properly,
but with yours it doesn't! Oh well...
[...]
Let me try one more time, after having had a cup of coffee to clear
my brain (and having cheated by looking it up) what determines the
distinction between "-est", "-st", "-et", and "-t" endings in the
2nd and 3rd pers. singular:
Verbs with stems ending in "t" or "d" or in "m" or "n" (if preceded
by a consonant other than "l" or "r") add a linking "e"; and in the
case of the past tense of weak verbs, before the "-te". [...]
--->Yes. And also, as I mentioned before, there is an exception to this if
there is a change in the stem vowel in the 2nd and 3rd person singular. In
such verbs an "e" is *not* added--hence the original poster's question. So
we have "laden - er lädt," "halten - er hält," "treten - er tritt,"
"gelten - er gilt." We would expect an "e" in these verbs, but it is not
there.
--->Oliver explained why this is so. And while I know that you were
describing present-day high German synchronically, historically, as you
probably know, it seems that "e" is not so much added, as preserved. The
Middle High German endings for present indicative singular are:
1. -e
2. -est
3. -et
--->However, even in MHG, following a long trend, the "e" is lost in some
cases. In verbs, the "e" in these endings is often lost before a "t", as in
the 3rd person singular. But this rule wasn't complete, so we find both
forms in MHG: "er wirt - er wirdet," "er gilt - er giltet," "er vint - er
vindet," etc. Eventually, the "e" was lost in new High German in general
for verbs in the 2nd and 3rd person endings, except for the verbs whose stem
ends in a dental or a nasal double consanant, and that lack a stem vowel
change: "er arbeitet," "er findet." The verbs with stem vowel changes, on
the other hand, follow the norm (ie., they end in -st and -t, not -est
and -et) because the person is made sufficiently clear by the
Umlaut--something that is not so clear in verbs like "arbeiten."
--->Kinda tricky, and I hope I didn't make any mistakes this time.
---> Peter