Schablonen?
1001 Webs
We are translating our website to German and one of our sections deals
with Web Templates.
The person we trusted the translation with is not a native German and
among other things, has translated the word Templates as "Schablonen".
Someone has pointed out to us that it's not the correct translation.
Is there a better word for it?
We would also like to kindly ask you to review the German section of
our site and honestly tell us if it has been correctly translated or
maybe we should be looking at other options:
http://www.1001webs.net/de/samples_de.html
Danke
René
> The person we trusted the translation with is not a native German and
> among other things, has translated the word Templates as "Schablonen".
>
> Someone has pointed out to us that it's not the correct translation.
> Is there a better word for it?
Vorlagen. One Vorlage, many Vorlagen.
--
Boy, sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?
Helmut Richter
On Fri, 2 Nov 2007, 1001 Webs wrote:
> We are translating our website to German and one of our sections deals
> with Web Templates.
>
> The person we trusted the translation with is not a native German and
> among other things, has translated the word Templates as "Schablonen".
>
> Someone has pointed out to us that it's not the correct translation.
> Is there a better word for it?
"Schablone" is in general a good choice for either "template" or "stencil".
In MS Word the usual German word is "Vorlage", e.g. "Formatvorlage". Given
the popularity of MS products, this is probably the best choice in this
case, although "Vorlage" has a somewhat different meaning, to wit an
original from which a different work or a translation is derived (for a
special case, the German word "Vorlage" is even used as a loan word in
English).
There is also a general trend in the software industry to regard English
loans as beyond doubt, so you could use "das Template".
> We would also like to kindly ask you to review the German section of
> our site and honestly tell us if it has been correctly translated or
> maybe we should be looking at other options:
> http://www.1001webs.net/de/samples_de.html
The translation is recognisably made by a non-native speaker as it contains
slight grammatical errors, e.g.:
Unsere integrierten Packete[1] enthalten schon Design und Anpassung des[2]
von Ihnen gewählten Schablone oder die Schaffung eines[2] neuen,[3]
speziell Ihren Bedürfnissen nach[4].
[1] "Paket" is spelt without -ck-.
[2] "Schablone" is of feminine gender.
[3] This comma is at least dubious.
[4] "nach" as a postposition is possible, but looks awkward in this
sentence.
Unsere integrierten Pakete enthalten schon Design und Anpassung der von
Ihnen gewählten Schablone oder die Schaffung einer neuen speziell nach
Ihren Bedürfnissen.
The language is, however, perfectly intelligible and, by and large,
correct. It is a viable basis for a correction by an articulate native
speaker -- in contrast to tools like Babelfish which produce unintelligible
gibberish only for the litter basket.
The question remains, however, whom you want to address. If you attract
German-speaking customers, you should be able to serve them
adequately. Selling them bananas or vacuum cleaners does not require perfect
mastery of their language on your side as long as the bananas are tasty or
the vacuum cleaners do what they are supposed to. Selling a company's
presentation on the Web, however, is much more dependent on language
skills. If you aim at customers using foreign languages, you should make
clear what you can do for them and where they have to do themselves, for
instance find the right tone for *their* customership.
--
Helmut Richter
Tor-Einar Jarnbjo
> We would also like to kindly ask you to review the German section of
> our site and honestly tell us if it has been correctly translated or
> maybe we should be looking at other options:
Well, at least all the misspelled words are a clear indicator that the
German text was not automatically translated, as even automatic
translators are usually able to put correctly spelled words together to
senseless sentences. Your translator has managed to combine misspelled
words and incorrect grammar into something really odd.
Oliver Cromm
> We would also like to kindly ask you to review the German section of
> our site and honestly tell us if it has been correctly translated or
> maybe we should be looking at other options:
You should look at the option of a professional translator.
(Crossposting cut)
--
The most likely way for the world to be destroyed, most experts agree,
is by accident. That's where we come in; we're computer professionals.
We cause accidents. -- Nathaniel Borenstein
1001 Webs
On Nov 2, 6:18 pm, Helmut Richter <hh...@web.de> wrote:
> [ Followup-To: alt.usage.german ]
>
> On Fri, 2 Nov 2007, 1001 Webs wrote:
> > We are translating our website to German and one of our sections deals
> > with Web Templates.
>
> > The person we trusted the translation with is not a native German and
> > among other things, has translated the word Templates as "Schablonen".
>
> > Someone has pointed out to us that it's not the correct translation.
> > Is there a better word for it?
>
> "Schablone" is in general a good choice for either "template" or "stencil".
>
> In MS Word the usual German word is "Vorlage", e.g. "Formatvorlage". Given
> the popularity of MS products, this is probably the best choice in this
> case, although "Vorlage" has a somewhat different meaning, to wit an
> original from which a different work or a translation is derived (for a
> special case, the German word "Vorlage" is even used as a loan word in
> English).
>
> There is also a general trend in the software industry to regard English
> loans as beyond doubt, so you could use "das Template".
We'll use "Vorlage", then.
A bit of Search and replace to do.
Thank you Helmut.
The person who translated to German the web is (supposedly) part of a
team from Russia that (and now we have to say supposedly again) works
with Content Management Systems.
They assured us their German was perfect, because their German
translator had lived and studied in Germany for a long number of
years.
Obviously what we are offering is something of a greater reach than
bananas.
If we're offering to create websites to German companies or
individuals, we can't afford to leave them in the hands of people who
are not able to express themselves properly in German.
Passable is not enough in this case, I'm afraid.
It wouldn't be neither professional nor trustworthy.
1001 Webs
> * 1001 Webs wrote:
> > We would also like to kindly ask you to review the German section of
> > our site and honestly tell us if it has been correctly translated or
> > maybe we should be looking at other options:
>
> You should look at the option of a professional translator.
It's not just translating-
They have to be able to work with PHP-MySQL CMSs.
Please contact us if you can recommend someone.
1001 Webs
Thank you Tor-Einar.
Something "really odd" is precisely the opposite of the image we're
trying to display upfront.
We are head-hunting again.
Please contact us if you can recommend someone German NATIVE who is
Oliver Cromm
Sorry, I'm currently working for a company that does a PHP-MySQL CMS,
and I'm not really on the translators' scene. ;-) Ours does not have a
German version, unfortunately. Maybe in the future.
--
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach him to use the 'Net
and he won't bother you for weeks.
1001 Webs
> * 1001 Webs wrote:
> > On Nov 2, 6:37 pm, Oliver Cromm <lispamat...@yahoo.de> wrote:
> >> * 1001 Webs wrote:
> >>> We would also like to kindly ask you to review the German section of
> >>> our site and honestly tell us if it has been correctly translated or
> >>> maybe we should be looking at other options:
>
> >> You should look at the option of a professional translator.
>
> > It's not just translating-
> > They have to be able to work with PHP-MySQL CMSs.
> > Please contact us if you can recommend someone.
>
> Sorry, I'm currently working for a company that does a PHP-MySQL CMS,
> and I'm not really on the translators' scene. ;-) Ours does not have a
> German version, unfortunately. Maybe in the future.
I guess many of the words used on those Systems can't be translated or
rather no one can't be bothered to translate them, since they are
seldom used.
I'm talking about the likes of "Links", "Hosting", "Login", etc.
I've seen "Content Management System" translated as "Inhalte-
Verwaltungs-System"
Does anyone ever use that expression?
Oliver Cromm
[German version of a CMS]
> I guess many of the words used on those Systems can't be translated or
> rather no one can't be bothered to translate them, since they are
> seldom used.
> I'm talking about the likes of "Links", "Hosting", "Login", etc.
Not necessarily, "Anmelden" (among others) for "Login" is quite common.
> I've seen "Content Management System" translated as "Inhalte-
> Verwaltungs-System"
> Does anyone ever use that expression?
I doubt it, It's obviously a direct translation, and for me, it doesn't
work well. To start with, "Inhalte" is not commonly used in this way (at
least outside of industry technology, which I am not familiar with.)
--
Oliver C.
Helga Schulz
>On 2007-11-02 11:05:07 -0500, 1001 Webs <1001...@gmail.com> said:
>
>> The person we trusted the translation with is not a native German and
>> among other things, has translated the word Templates as "Schablonen".
>>
>> Someone has pointed out to us that it's not the correct translation.
>> Is there a better word for it?
>
>Vorlagen. One Vorlage, many Vorlagen.
Eigentlich. Aber das, was er bietet, sind wirklich Schablonen.
Joachim Pense
> On 2007-11-02 11:05:07 -0500, 1001 Webs <1001...@gmail.com> said:
>
>> The person we trusted the translation with is not a native German and
>> among other things, has translated the word Templates as "Schablonen".
>>
>> Someone has pointed out to us that it's not the correct translation.
>> Is there a better word for it?
>
> Vorlagen. One Vorlage, many Vorlagen.
Looking at the German "focal meaning" of the words, a Vorlage is
something you copy from; a Schablone is a device that helps you
drawing by providing the outline of the figure to direct your pencil.
A Muster is a sample copy; similar to a Vorlage, but not so much
intended to be copied from, but rather something to be shown around to
display the features.
"Schablone" would match "Templates" best in my opinion, but Microsoft
decided differently and used "Vorlage" as German equivalent of
"Template.
Joachim
Robert Watson & Mary-Ann Parisi
news:rqju8naav9nb$.11l63z2fbv1fw.dlg@40tude.net...
I ordered the book 'SAP Smart Forms Komfortabel Erstellen' before it was
available in English. What is translated as templates both online in SAP and
in the later English edition of the book were called Schablonen in the
original edition. Since the German and English formats of SAP itself come
out at the same time, the language staff at SAP must have considered the
options in advance. I'm not saying that the choice made by the staff of
'Solves All Problems' is absolute, but they probably more experience than
anyone in translating computer terms into multiple languages for use in a
mass market.
Robert.
Helmut Richter
> I guess many of the words used on those Systems can't be translated or
> rather no one can't be bothered to translate them, since they are
> seldom used.
> I'm talking about the likes of "Links", "Hosting", "Login", etc.
There are a few German computer terms that are well established -- which
does not prevent some people to use English terms all the same:
directory Verzeichnis, Ordner
file Datei
interface Schnittstelle
keyboard Tastatur
operating system Betriebssystem
printer Drucker
screen Bildschirm
user Benutzer, Anwender
word processing Textverarbeitung
Some words have good translations which are used by some people and
understood by everybody:
link Verweis
login Anmeldung
content (e.g. Web) Inhalt
In Web content management, there is the problem that the English word
"site" sounds similar to the German word "Seite" (page) which has a
different meaning. A terminology like the following avoids this false
friend:
Web site Webauftritt
Web page Webseite
There are more false friend around:
physical physikalisch (should be physisch)
network Netzwerk (should be Netz)
document Dokument (that would require a signature)
personal (of PC) Personal- (should be persönlich)
None of these lists is meant to be exhaustive.
The vast majority of computer terms, however, is taken over as Engish loan
words. In Dieter E. Zimmer's book "Deutsch und anders" there is a list of
100 computer terms with common translations into Danish, German, Italian,
Dutch, Swedish, Spanish, Polish, French, and Finnish with the result that
the anglicisation of computer languages varies a lot from Danish (highest,
52% native)) to Finnish (lowest, 93% native) in the above sequence.
> I've seen "Content Management System" translated as "Inhalte-
> Verwaltungs-System"
> Does anyone ever use that expression?
"Inhalte" sounds normal to me, and I would use it. But although I prefer
German terms whenever possible, I use "Content-Management-System" (as loan
word with three capital letters and with hyphens; not as foreign word with
small letters, no dashes, and preferably in italics).
--
Helmut Richter
Helmut Richter
> >link Verweis
>
> My own use is »Verbindung«, which is more literal and quite
> unusual for »link« in the web, but makes a clear distinction
> to »reference« - »Verweis«.
The English term "link" has at least two meanings:
- a second name of a file: then "Verweis" is not a good German term
- a hypertext link, a device for looking up Web contents referenced in
other Web contents: then "Verweis" is a telling term. I consider it less
important that it be a literal translation of "link" than that it be
understood
> >Web site Webauftritt
>
> A literal translation would be »Gespinststelle«, but »Web«
> can be considered to be a proper name, so »Web-Stelle«
> oder »Web-Platz« uses a more literal translation of »site«.
in the same spirit:
more literal yes; more comprehensible no
By the way, I have a file called "webstelle" in my directory. It contains
the description of an open position (Stelle) in Web administration for a
job advertisement. This is how I would interpret "Web-Stelle" unless the
context suggests than an URL is meant.
> >document Dokument (that would require a signature)
>
> A »Dokument« only requires a signature in some senses.
> For example, not as used in
>
> http://ub.uni-graz.at/sosa/pdf/skripten/skriptum_dokumententheorie.pdf
A "Dokument" or "Urkunde" (I take the two for synonymous, are they?) is a
thing witnessing or documenting something. The most common use is a signed
paper (or a declaration before a notary public). There are many
conceivable other uses of the word in contexts where one has written text
-- or even something else -- serving to document something, even when the
document was established without the intention of documentation. But not
every "Beweisstück" (piece of evidence) is a "Dokument".
This differs so much from the use of "document" in some computer software
that I call it a bad misnomer.
--
Helmut Richter
Helmut Richter
> Helmut Richter <hh...@web.de> writes:
> >a hypertext link, a device for looking up Web contents referenced in
> >other Web contents: then "Verweis" is a telling term. I consider it less
> >important that it be a literal translation of "link" than that it be
> >understood
>
> The Wikipedia entry about hypertext was not written by me, it reads:
>
> »Hypertext ist eine multi-lineare Organisation von
> Objekten, deren netzartige Struktur durch logische
> Verbindungen (so genannte Hyperlinks) zwischen
> Wissenseinheiten (Knoten, z. B. Texten oder Textteilen)
> hergestellt wird.«
>
> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypertext
>
> According to your statement, this should be hard to understand
> because it uses the word »Verbindung«.
This is a non-sequitur. In hypertext, there are small pieces of text or
images marked up to show that they can be used to find other units. With
this means, a "logische Verbindung" (logical connexion, logical link)
between the two texts is established, and this is what the quoted text
says.
I was talking, however, about the visible representation of this
connexion, as in "click on the link". According to my feeling for
language, you cannot click on a "Verbindung" but you can click on a
"Verweis" because a "Verweis" is a piece of text, a "Verbindung" is not.
Moreover, I consider it a flaw of both (en) "link" and (de) "Verbindung"
that they suggest an undirected connection whereas a "Verweis" (reference)
has a direction from one document to another. In the above quote, only the
network-like structure established by links is mentioned, so the word
"Verbindung" is not wrong. I assume, however, that this explanation is not
very lucid for somebody who does not already know what hypertext is: text
of all times has had logical connexions between parts without being
hypertext -- the special feature of hypertext is that these "Verbindungen"
(connexions) have the form of "Verweise" (links) that can be followed with
computer assistance.
--
Helmut Richter
Andy
<Pine.LNX.4.63.07...@lxhri01.lrz.lrz-muenchen.de>, Helmut
Richter <hh...@web.de> wrote
[
>I was talking, however, about the visible representation of this
>connexion, as in "click on the link". According to my feeling for
>language, you cannot click on a "Verbindung" but you can click on a
>"Verweis" because a "Verweis" is a piece of text, a "Verbindung" is not.
>
--
Andy Taylor [Editor, Austrian Philatelic Society; Chair, N E Lupus Group].
Visit <URL:http://www.austrianphilately.com> or <URL:http://www.northeastlupus.
org.uk> for the obvious; Andystuff on <URL:http://www.kitzbuhel.demon.co.uk>
Helmut Richter
> The quoted text contains
>
> »logische Verbindungen (so genannte Hyperlinks)«.
>
> The reason I quoted it, was to show that the authors of this
> Wikipedia article consider »logische /Verbindung/« (and not
> »Verweis«) to be the German language phrase for »Hyperlink«.
It is common practice in both English and German to use terms as
abbreviations, for instance "translation" also for "translated text" or
"result of a translation". In the same sense, when talking about hypertext
the term "link" is not only used for "logical link between portions of
hypertext" but also "reference of one portion of hypertext to another",
"markup for a reference of one portion of hypertext to another", "visual
representation of a reference of one portion of hypertext to another", and
"interface for using a visually marked up reference of one portion of
hypertext to another". I leave it to you to invent enough German terms to
make these distinctions correctly. My first suggestion is: "Verbindung",
"Verbindungsverweis", "Verbindungsverweisauszeichnung",
"Verbindungsverweisauszeichnungsdarstellung", and
"Verbindungsverweisauszeichnungsdarstellungsbenutzungsschnittstelle". The
German language would then again get the combination of precision and
conciseness for which we love it so.
I was proposing one single German term for the single English term "link"
with all its imprecise colourfulness which entails that neither
"Verbindung" nor "Verweis" match all meanings at the same time. I think I
have given reasons why "Verweis" is the better choice in German.
> This argument would also be valid in English - so they
> should then tell to »click on the reference«.
Language is not what we find the most logical use but what people do use
and understand. The anglophones have made their choice. When we translate,
we make ours, not theirs.
> But this is the wrong level of language anyway, because
> whether one »clicks« with the mouse or uses the keyboard
> to follow a link, depends on the user agent and the user's
> habbits and hardware. So »activate/follow the link« would
> be better - »Folgen Sie der Verbindung.«
See above for fixing this problem.
--
Helmut Richter