Nietzsche translation evaluation

[UC]

Could someone please review and comment on these:

The German:
"Diese Liste ist gewiss nicht vollständig; ersichtlich ist die Strafe
mit Nützlichkeiten aller Art überladen. Um so eher darf man von ihr
eine vermeintliche Nützlichkeit in Abzug bringen, die allerdings im
populären Bewusstsein als ihre wesentlichste gilt, – der Glaube an die
Strafe, der heute aus mehreren Gründen wackelt, findet gerade an ihr
immer noch seine kräftigste Stütze."

First
"This list is certainly not complete; it is overdetermined [überladen]
by utilities of all kinds. All the more reason then, for deducting
from it a supposed utility that, to be sure, counts in the popular
consciousness as the most essential one — belief in punishment, which
for several reasons is tottering today, always finds its strongest
support in this"

Second
"The list is certainly not complete; punishment can clearly be seen to
be richly laden with benefits of all kinds. This provides all the more
justification for us to deduct one supposed benefit that counts as its
most characteristic in popular perception, – faith in punishment,
which is shaky today for several reasons, has its strongest support in
precisely this."

Third
"This list is by no means complete; it is obvious that punishment is
useful in so many ways, for so many different ends, that we have more
than sufficient justification to disregard what passes, at any rate in
the popular mind, as the purpose for which it is most useful, and
which provides the strongest support for that faith in punishment
which is nowadays, for many reasons, shaken, if not in decline."

[Joachim Pense]

Am 26.07.2012 17:18, schrieb UC:
> Could someone please review and comment on these:
>
> The German:

> "Diese Liste ist gewiss nicht vollst�ndig; ersichtlich ist die Strafe
> mit N�tzlichkeiten aller Art �berladen. Um so eher darf man von ihr
> eine vermeintliche N�tzlichkeit in Abzug bringen, die allerdings im
> popul�ren Bewusstsein als ihre wesentlichste gilt, � der Glaube an die
> Strafe, der heute aus mehreren Gr�nden wackelt, findet gerade an ihr
> immer noch seine kr�ftigste St�tze."
>
> First
> "This list is certainly not complete; it is overdetermined [�berladen]

I don't understand "overdetermined" for "�berladen". That makes no sense
to me.

> by utilities of all kinds. All the more reason then, for deducting
> from it a supposed utility that, to be sure, counts in the popular

> consciousness as the most essential one � belief in punishment, which

> for several reasons is tottering today, always finds its strongest
> support in this"
>
> Second
> "The list is certainly not complete; punishment can clearly be seen to
> be richly laden with benefits of all kinds. This provides all the more

"richly laden" is of course not a literal translation of "�berladen"
(which is rather "overloaded"). However, I feel that "�berladen" is
sometimes used to mean "richly laden"; if N. didn't intend to express
that the list is about to be destroyed by too much load, this might be a
good translation.

> justification for us to deduct one supposed benefit that counts as its

> most characteristic in popular perception, � faith in punishment,

"Faith" or "belief"? Whichever has less religious associations, that one
should win.

> which is shaky today for several reasons, has its strongest support in
> precisely this."
>
> Third
> "This list is by no means complete; it is obvious that punishment is
> useful in so many ways, for so many different ends, that we have more
> than sufficient justification to disregard what passes, at any rate in
> the popular mind, as the purpose for which it is most useful, and
> which provides the strongest support for that faith in punishment
> which is nowadays, for many reasons, shaken, if not in decline."
>

This translation carries too much exegesis for my taste.

Joachim

[UC]

On Jul 26, 12:42 pm, Joachim Pense <s...@pense-mainz.eu> wrote:
> Am 26.07.2012 17:18, schrieb UC:
>
> > Could someone please review and comment on these:
>
> > The German:

> > "Diese Liste ist gewiss nicht vollst ndig; ersichtlich ist die Strafe
> > mit N tzlichkeiten aller Art berladen. Um so eher darf man von ihr
> > eine vermeintliche N tzlichkeit in Abzug bringen, die allerdings im
> > popul ren Bewusstsein als ihre wesentlichste gilt, der Glaube an die
> > Strafe, der heute aus mehreren Gr nden wackelt, findet gerade an ihr
> > immer noch seine kr ftigste St tze."
>
> > First
> > "This list is certainly not complete; it is overdetermined [ berladen]
>
> I don't understand "overdetermined" for " berladen". That makes no sense

> to me.
>
> > by utilities of all kinds. All the more reason then, for deducting
> > from it a supposed utility that, to be sure, counts in the popular

> > consciousness as the most essential one belief in punishment, which

> > for several reasons is tottering today, always finds its strongest
> > support in this"
>
> > Second
> > "The list is certainly not complete; punishment can clearly be seen to
> > be richly laden with benefits of all kinds. This provides all the more
>

> "richly laden" is of course not a literal translation of " berladen"
> (which is rather "overloaded"). However, I feel that " berladen" is

> sometimes used to mean "richly laden"; if N. didn't intend to express
> that the list is about to be destroyed by too much load, this might be a
> good translation.
>
> > justification for us to deduct one supposed benefit that counts as its

> > most characteristic in popular perception, faith in punishment,

>
> "Faith" or "belief"? Whichever has less religious associations, that one
> should win.
>
> > which is shaky today for several reasons, has its strongest support in
> > precisely this."
>
> > Third
> > "This list is by no means complete; it is obvious that punishment is
> > useful in so many ways, for so many different ends, that we have more
> > than sufficient justification to disregard what passes, at any rate in
> > the popular mind, as the purpose for which it is most useful, and
> > which provides the strongest support for that faith in punishment
> > which is nowadays, for many reasons, shaken, if not in decline."
>
> This translation carries too much exegesis for my taste.
>
> Joachim

Thanks

How would you rate them, best to worst? Remember the target audience
would likely be students.

[UC]

On Jul 26, 12:54 pm, r...@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) wrote:
> Joachim Pense <s...@pense-mainz.eu> writes:
> >I don't understand "overdetermined" for " berladen". That makes no sense
> >to me.
>
>   berladen = overloaded
>   overdetermined = berbestimmt, berdeterminiert (dh uU inkonsistent)
>
>   in der Semantik:
>
>   berladen : Mehrere alternative Bedeutungen besitzend,
>   von denen dann eine kontextuell determiniert wird, z.B.
>   i = 1 v i = 2 (i ist 1 oder 2).
>
>   berbestimmt : Zu sehr bestimmte Bedeutung, die damit
>   nicht m glich ist, z.B. i = 1 ^ i = 2 (i ist 1 und 2).

>
> >" berladen" (which is rather "overloaded")
>

>   Ja.

I agree with you. I did not prepare that translation.

[UC]

On Jul 26, 12:42 pm, Joachim Pense <s...@pense-mainz.eu> wrote:

> Am 26.07.2012 17:18, schrieb UC:
>
> > Could someone please review and comment on these:
>
> > The German:

> > "Diese Liste ist gewiss nicht vollst ndig; ersichtlich ist die Strafe
> > mit N tzlichkeiten aller Art berladen. Um so eher darf man von ihr
> > eine vermeintliche N tzlichkeit in Abzug bringen, die allerdings im
> > popul ren Bewusstsein als ihre wesentlichste gilt, der Glaube an die
> > Strafe, der heute aus mehreren Gr nden wackelt, findet gerade an ihr
> > immer noch seine kr ftigste St tze."
>
> > First
> > "This list is certainly not complete; it is overdetermined [ berladen]
>
> I don't understand "overdetermined" for " berladen". That makes no sense

> to me.
>
> > by utilities of all kinds. All the more reason then, for deducting
> > from it a supposed utility that, to be sure, counts in the popular

> > consciousness as the most essential one belief in punishment, which

> > for several reasons is tottering today, always finds its strongest
> > support in this"
>
> > Second
> > "The list is certainly not complete; punishment can clearly be seen to
> > be richly laden with benefits of all kinds. This provides all the more
>

> "richly laden" is of course not a literal translation of " berladen"
> (which is rather "overloaded"). However, I feel that " berladen" is

> sometimes used to mean "richly laden"; if N. didn't intend to express
> that the list is about to be destroyed by too much load, this might be a
> good translation.
>
> > justification for us to deduct one supposed benefit that counts as its

> > most characteristic in popular perception, faith in punishment,

>
> "Faith" or "belief"? Whichever has less religious associations, that one
> should win.
>
> > which is shaky today for several reasons, has its strongest support in
> > precisely this."
>
> > Third
> > "This list is by no means complete; it is obvious that punishment is
> > useful in so many ways, for so many different ends, that we have more
> > than sufficient justification to disregard what passes, at any rate in
> > the popular mind, as the purpose for which it is most useful, and
> > which provides the strongest support for that faith in punishment
> > which is nowadays, for many reasons, shaken, if not in decline."
>
> This translation carries too much exegesis for my taste.
>
> Joachim

Here is the relevant text, in context: end of section 13, beginning of
section 14, second essay, Genealogie der Moral:


Strafe als Isolirung einer Gleichgewichts-Störung, um ein
Weitergreifen der Störung zu verhüten. Strafe als Furchteinflössen vor
Denen, welche die Strafe bestimmen und exekutiren. Strafe als eine Art
Ausgleich für die Vortheile, welche der Verbrecher bis dahin genossen
hat (zum Beispiel wenn er als Bergwerkssklave nutzbar gemacht wird).
Strafe als Ausscheidung eines entartenden Elementes (unter Umständen
eines ganzen Zweigs, wie nach chinesischem Rechte: somit als Mittel
zur Reinerhaltung der Rasse oder zur Festhaltung eines socialen
Typus). Strafe als Fest, nämlich als Vergewaltigung und Verhöhnung
eines endlich niedergeworfnen Feindes. Strafe als ein
Gedächtnissmachen, sei es für Den, der die Strafe erleidet – die
sogenannte »Besserung«, sei es für die Zeugen der Exekution. Strafe
als Zahlung eines Honorars, ausbedungen Seitens der Macht, welche den
Übelthäter vor den Ausschweifungen der Rache schützt. Strafe als
Compromiss mit dem Naturzustand der Rache, sofern letzterer durch
mächtige Geschlechter noch aufrecht erhalten und als Privilegium in
Anspruch genommen wird. Strafe als Kriegserklärung und
Kriegsmaassregel gegen einen Feind des Friedens, des Gesetzes, der
Ordnung, der Obrigkeit, den man als gefährlich für das Gemeinwesen,
als vertragsbrüchig in Hinsicht auf dessen Voraussetzungen, als einen
Empörer, Verräther und Friedensbrecher bekämpft, mit Mitteln, wie sie
eben der Krieg an die Hand giebt. –
14.
Diese Liste ist gewiss nicht vollständig; ersichtlich ist die Strafe
mit Nützlichkeiten aller Art überladen. Um so eher darf man von ihr
eine vermeintliche Nützlichkeit in Abzug bringen, die allerdings im
populären Bewusstsein als ihre wesentlichste gilt, – der Glaube an die
Strafe, der heute aus mehreren Gründen wackelt, findet gerade an ihr
immer noch seine kräftigste Stütze. Die Strafe soll den Werth haben,
das Gefühl der Schuld im Schuldigen aufzuwecken, man sucht in ihr das
eigentliche instrumentum jener seelischen Reaktion, welche »schlechtes
Gewissen«, »Gewissensbiss« genannt wird. Aber damit vergreift man sich
selbst für heute noch an der Wirklichkeit und der Psychologie: und wie
viel mehr für die längste Geschichte des Menschen, seine
Vorgeschichte!

[Joachim Pense]

Am 26.07.2012 18:54, schrieb Stefan Ram:
> Joachim Pense <sn...@pense-mainz.eu> writes:
>> I don't understand "overdetermined" for "�berladen". That makes no sense
>> to me.
>
> �berladen = overloaded

> overdetermined = �berbestimmt, �berdeterminiert (dh uU inkonsistent)
>
> in der Semantik:
>
> ��berladen�: Mehrere alternative Bedeutungen besitzend,
> von denen dann eine kontextuell determiniert wird, z.B.
> �i = 1 v i = 2� (i ist 1 oder 2).

That meaning applies in computer programming terminology only. Here,
"�berladen" seems just to mean "loaded too heavily" (in this case
rather without the "too")

>
> ��berbestimmt�: Zu sehr bestimmte Bedeutung, die damit

> nicht m�glich ist, z.B. �i = 1 ^ i = 2� (i ist 1 und 2).
>

Yes, and that does not seem to make any sense here.

Joachim

[Joachim Pense]

I like the second one best, then the first (but the error should be
fixed). The third one is too biased, hence I like them least.

Joachim

[UC]

Unbelievable.

The first one is incomprehensible (notice that 'it' refers to 'list'
when die Strafe is the subject?). Even if you fixed that, and fixed
'overdetermined', the thing still stinks. What does 'deduct a utility
from punishment' even mean? This is ridiculous! It's hopeless. I am
the author of the third one, which is by far more intelligible and
idiomatic. What is 'biased' about it? It has one advantage of the
others: it is in ENGLISH!!!!

[Joachim Pense]

Am 26.07.2012 23:13, schrieb UC:
> On Jul 26, 5:08 pm, Joachim Pense <s...@pense-mainz.eu> wrote:
>> Am 26.07.2012 18:55, schrieb UC:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Jul 26, 12:42 pm, Joachim Pense <s...@pense-mainz.eu> wrote:
>>>> Am 26.07.2012 17:18, schrieb UC:
>>
>>>>> Could someone please review and comment on these:
>>
>>>>> The German:
>>>>> "Diese Liste ist gewiss nicht vollst ndig; ersichtlich ist die Strafe
>>>>> mit N tzlichkeiten aller Art berladen. Um so eher darf man von ihr
>>>>> eine vermeintliche N tzlichkeit in Abzug bringen, die allerdings im
>>>>> popul ren Bewusstsein als ihre wesentlichste gilt, der Glaube an die
>>>>> Strafe, der heute aus mehreren Gr nden wackelt, findet gerade an ihr
>>>>> immer noch seine kr ftigste St tze."
>>

>>

>>>>> Third
>>>>> "This list is by no means complete; it is obvious that punishment is
>>>>> useful in so many ways, for so many different ends, that we have more
>>>>> than sufficient justification to disregard what passes, at any rate in
>>>>> the popular mind, as the purpose for which it is most useful, and
>>>>> which provides the strongest support for that faith in punishment
>>>>> which is nowadays, for many reasons, shaken, if not in decline."
>>
>>>> This translation carries too much exegesis for my taste.
>>
>>>> Joachim
>>

I am
> the author of the third one, which is by far more intelligible and
> idiomatic. What is 'biased' about it? It has one advantage of the
> others: it is in ENGLISH!!!!
>

I cannot judge the English. By bias I mean it tries to explain the text,
not just translate. This makes it more understandable, but I am not so
sure if this is what a translation should do.

Joachim

[UC]

A translation should not just be in English words, but expressed in
the way an English speaker would express it. No native English speaker
would ever utter a sentence like the first two.

[UC]

Have you ever heard anyone say 'deduct a punishment'?

[UC]

I'm sorry, I meant 'deduct a utility'?

[Joachim Pense]

Am 26.07.2012 23:31, schrieb UC:

>
> I'm sorry, I meant 'deduct a utility'?
>

As I said, I cannot comment the English.

Joachim

[UC]

Well this is the problem in translation. LOL

[UC]

Well that's what I wanted help with.

[Joachim Pense]

Maybe a native speaker of English reads this group and can comment.

Joachim

[UC]

OK, thanks.

[Oliver Cromm]

* UC:

I agree with you that the first translation is incomprehensible
and probably wrong at places, for that reason I liked the third
one better. But I agree with Joachim about yours being too far
from the original - and that was exactly my thought before I
read Joachim's comments. Hence my ranking 2 - 3 - 1.

You write what you understood, but it is not so clear that that is
exactly what Nietzsche wanted to say. Nietzsche's sentences are
rather opaque this time (not in general, not compared to most
philosophers), be assured that few Germans would write "sentences
like that".

I seem to remember that it was said (in Bertrand Russell's times)
that English students understood Kant better than German
students - because the translation was much clearer than the
original! But that means it wasn't true to the original.

--
OliverC

[UC]

On Jul 26, 6:26 pm, Oliver Cromm <lispamat...@crommatograph.info>
wrote:

I find that a literal translation of something like this is useless.

[UC]

On Jul 26, 6:26 pm, Oliver Cromm <lispamat...@crommatograph.info>
wrote:

It was Max Mueller who said that his translation of Kant's Critique of
Pre Reason was likely to be studied in preference to the original
German. And he was right.

[Oliver Cromm]

* UC:

> I find that a literal translation of something like this is useless.

Granted, but on first glance, the second translation you presented
seems a more reasonable compromise than yours.

Specifically, I find this passage problematic:

| ersichtlich ist die Strafe
| mit Nützlichkeiten aller Art überladen.

| it is obvious that punishment is
| useful in so many ways, for so many different ends

Even after reading in context as provided in your later post, I am
not entirely sure what Nietzsche wants to express by "überladen",
but I'm pretty sure it's more than just "punishment *is* useful".
I tend to read it as "punishment carries a richly colored aura of
multiple usefulness"; i.e. he is speaking not about factual
usefulness, but perceived (without implying it is *only*
perceived).

I think your translation is good, but should not be read
exclusively, rather in addition to the original or a more literal
one. Are you familiar with Hofstadter's "Le Ton Beau de Marot"? He
argues that to capture various aspects of an original work, you
need several different translations.

--
"Bother", said the Borg, as they assimilated Pooh.

[Oliver Cromm]

* UC:

> On Jul 26, 6:26 pm, Oliver Cromm <lispamat...@crommatograph.info>
> wrote:

>> I seem to remember that it was said (in Bertrand Russell's times)
>> that English students understood Kant better than German
>> students - because the translation was much clearer than the
>> original! But that means it wasn't true to the original.
>

> It was Max Mueller who said that his translation of Kant's Critique of
> Pre Reason was likely to be studied in preference to the original
> German. And he was right.

Thanks for the reminder. I also suspected for a long time that
translation is one reason that Heidegger is so much more popular
in some other countries than in his native Germany.

--
A chrysanthemum by any other name would be easier to spell.
Peter Moylan in alt.usage.english

[Joachim Pense]

Am 27.07.2012 19:41, schrieb Oliver Cromm:
> * UC:
>
>> On Jul 26, 6:26 pm, Oliver Cromm <lispamat...@crommatograph.info>
>> wrote:
>
>>> I seem to remember that it was said (in Bertrand Russell's times)
>>> that English students understood Kant better than German
>>> students - because the translation was much clearer than the
>>> original! But that means it wasn't true to the original.
>>
>> It was Max Mueller who said that his translation of Kant's Critique of
>> Pre Reason was likely to be studied in preference to the original
>> German. And he was right.
>
> Thanks for the reminder. I also suspected for a long time that
> translation is one reason that Heidegger is so much more popular
> in some other countries than in his native Germany.
>

They say Heidegger ist best understood when translated into classical
Greek, because that's the language Heidegger claimed to think in.

Joachim

[UC]

On Jul 27, 1:41 pm, Oliver Cromm <lispamat...@crommatograph.info>
wrote:

> * UC:
>
> > I find that a literal translation of something like this is useless.
>
> Granted, but on first glance, the second translation you presented
> seems a more reasonable compromise than yours.

I don't care for compromises in translation, if it is at all possible
to avoid them. I really have no idea what 'deduct a benefit' or
'deduct a use' can possibly mean. It's obviously a literal rendering
that has no correlate in English idiom.

>
> Specifically, I find this passage problematic:
>
> | ersichtlich ist die Strafe
> | mit Nützlichkeiten aller Art überladen.
>
> |  it is obvious that punishment is
> | useful in so many ways, for so many different ends
>
> Even after reading in context as provided in your later post, I am
> not entirely sure what Nietzsche wants to express by "überladen",
> but I'm pretty sure it's more than just "punishment *is* useful".
> I tend to read it as "punishment carries a richly colored aura of
> multiple usefulness"; i.e. he is speaking not about factual
> usefulness, but perceived (without implying it is *only*
> perceived).

I think he means 'punishment has been given so much credit, has been
relied upon so much, is the first thing people appeal to, etc.'

[UC]

On Jul 27, 1:41 pm, Oliver Cromm <lispamat...@crommatograph.info>
wrote:

> * UC:
>
> > I find that a literal translation of something like this is useless.
>
> Granted, but on first glance, the second translation you presented
> seems a more reasonable compromise than yours.
>
> Specifically, I find this passage problematic:
>
> | ersichtlich ist die Strafe
> | mit Nützlichkeiten aller Art überladen.
>
> |  it is obvious that punishment is
> | useful in so many ways, for so many different ends
>
> Even after reading in context as provided in your later post, I am
> not entirely sure what Nietzsche wants to express by "überladen",
> but I'm pretty sure it's more than just "punishment *is* useful".

Well that's why I expanded it to 'useful in so many ways, for so many
different ends'. Obviously space limitations prohibit an even greater
expansion.

> I tend to read it as "punishment carries a richly colored aura of
> multiple usefulness"; i.e. he is speaking not about factual
> usefulness, but perceived (without implying it is *only*
> perceived).

All right, I kind of got that...but it's difficult to express without
getting wordy.

> I think your translation is good, but should not be read
> exclusively, rather in addition to the original or a more literal
> one. Are you familiar with Hofstadter's "Le Ton Beau de Marot"? He
> argues that to capture various aspects of an original work, you
> need several different translations.

I have often wanted to incorporate alternatives in translations, but
it can get cumbersome if done too often.

[UC]

On Jul 27, 1:56 pm, r...@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) wrote:

> Oliver Cromm <lispamat...@crommatograph.info> writes:
> >| ersichtlich ist die Strafe

> >| mit N tzlichkeiten aller Art berladen.
>

>   What's wrong with:
>
>       Obviously, the punishment is
>       overloaded with utilities of all kinds.

No English speaker would ever say such a thing. It's not a plausible
utterance.

>
>   (It is true that good translations sometimes are not
>   word-by-word, not literal , but this does not imply
>   that one can improve the quality of a translation by
>   making sure that one always avoids a literal translation,
>   which just would be indulgence in a cargo cult.)

[UC]

On Jul 27, 1:56 pm, r...@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) wrote:
> Oliver Cromm <lispamat...@crommatograph.info> writes:

> >| ersichtlich ist die Strafe

> >| mit N tzlichkeiten aller Art berladen.
>

>   What's wrong with:
>
>       Obviously, the punishment is
>       overloaded with utilities of all kinds.
>

One of the hardest things to do is to make the translation read as
though it were an original English expression, expressed by a native
speaker. I strive for it not only to 'make sense' but also to be
expressed the way a native speaker would express it.

[UC]

On Jul 27, 1:41 pm, Oliver Cromm <lispamat...@crommatograph.info>
wrote:

I think he's saying that there are so many uses for punishment, that
it has such great utility for so many purposes, that you can discount
one of these, even if it's regarded popularly as the most essential
one.

[UC]

On Jul 27, 1:41 pm, Oliver Cromm <lispamat...@crommatograph.info>

"On the other hand, I am fully conscious of the advantages which
English translators possess by their more perfect command of the
language into which foreign thought has to be converted. Here I at
once declare my own inferiority; nay, I confess that in rendering
Kant’s arguments in English I have thought far less of elegance,
smoothness, or rhythm, than of accuracy and clearness. What I have
attempted to do is to give an honest, and, as far as possible, a
literal translation, and, before all, a translation that will
construe; ****and I venture to say that even to a German student of
Kant this English translation will prove in many places more
intelligible than the German original.**** It is difficult to
translate the hymns of the Veda and the strains of the Upanishads, the
odes of Pindar and the verses of Lucretius; but I doubt whether the
difficulty of turning Kant’s metaphysical German into intelligible and
construable English is less. Nor do I wish my readers to believe that
I have never failed in making Kant’s sentences intelligible. There are
a few sentences in Kant’s Critique which I have not been able to
construe to my own satisfaction, and where none of the friends whom I
consulted could help me. Here all I could do was to give a literal
rendering, hoping that future editors may succeed in amending the
text, and extracting from it a more intelligible sense."

http://oll.libertyfund.org/?option=com_staticxt&staticfile=show.php%3Ftitle=1442&chapter=97700&layout=html&Itemid=27

[UC]

On Jul 27, 4:41 pm, r...@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) wrote:

> UC <uraniumcommit...@yahoo.com> writes:
> >On Jul 27, 1:56 pm, r...@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) wrote:
> >>What's wrong with:
> >>Obviously, the punishment is
> >>overloaded with utilities of all kinds.
> >No English speaker would ever say such a thing. It's not a plausible
> >utterance.
>

>   That's exactly what is true of Ersichtlich ist die Strafe mit
>   Nützlichkeiten aller Art überladen for native German speakers,
>   so it gives the English reader an idea of the language used.

Are you sure it's not simply due to the age of the document and the
author's style? Doesn't German somewhat allow for somewhat more
idiosyncratic expression? English doesn't. I am extremely sensitive to
unidiomatic speech in my native tongue. This is what give me an
advantage in doing this sort of work. I can tell at once if something
doesn't sound quite right in English.

[Oliver Cromm]

* UC:

I would have claimed exactly the opposite. English is the one
language, in my experience, where non-native speakers are treated
most leniently and are very rarely criticized for speaking
"unidiomatic". Even if you ask in a group like alt.usage.english,
for most slightly unusual turns of phrase there will be some
native speaker saying it sounds perfectly OK to them, and they
might say it themselves, even if the majority disagrees.

In Japanese, it's the opposite - stray slightly beyond the usual
way of expressing things, and the natives will not understand
you (or at least claim they don't). I explained it to myself with
the fact that the Japanese hear their language so rarely spoken
by foreigners, and Anglophones so often.

--
OliverC

[UC]

On Jul 27, 7:03 pm, Oliver Cromm <lispamat...@crommatograph.info>
wrote:

I said that ****I**** am extremely sensitive to variation from idiom.
I don't care what other people think.

[Oliver Cromm]

* UC:

> On Jul 27, 7:03 pm, Oliver Cromm <lispamat...@crommatograph.info>
> wrote:
>> * UC:
>>

>> > Doesn't German somewhat allow for somewhat more
>> > idiosyncratic expression? English doesn't. I am extremely sensitive to
>> > unidiomatic speech in my native tongue. This is what give me an
>> > advantage in doing this sort of work. I can tell at once if something
>> > doesn't sound quite right in English.
>>
>> I would have claimed exactly the opposite. English is the one
>> language, in my experience, where non-native speakers are treated
>> most leniently and are very rarely criticized for speaking
>> "unidiomatic". Even if you ask in a group like alt.usage.english,
>> for most slightly unusual turns of phrase there will be some
>> native speaker saying it sounds perfectly OK to them, and they
>> might say it themselves, even if the majority disagrees.
>

> I said that ****I**** am extremely sensitive to variation from idiom.

You claimed that it was a difference between "English" and
"German". English, however, is the sum of its speakers, your
sensitivities only concern your idiolect.

> I don't care what other people think.

I increasingly get this impression, and that makes discussing
with you pointless.

--
OliverC

[UC]

On Jul 28, 8:38 am, Oliver Cromm <lispamat...@crommatograph.info>

Well we UNDERSTAND them, of course; the point I was making was that we
know what 'good English' is.

[UC]

On Jul 27, 7:38 pm, r...@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) wrote:
> UC <uraniumcommit...@yahoo.com> writes:
> >Are you sure it's not simply due to the age of the document and the
> >author's style?
>

>   No, I am not sure.

>
> >Doesn't German somewhat allow for somewhat more idiosyncratic
> >expression?
>

>   In lyric or net chat rooms everything is allowed, but it is
>   well possible than only few people read you or no one reads
>   you. In a text book, the language has to be non-obtrusive.
>   Essays and fictions are a way in between.

I meant historically, in poetry and philosophical writing.

[UC]

On Jul 27, 7:03 pm, Oliver Cromm <lispamat...@crommatograph.info>
wrote:

You must distinguish between polite tolerance and discernment. In the
US, perhaps because of the egalitarianism preached at us, we may be
more forgiving than the British upper classes. But the educated among
us DO notice it.

[UC]

On Jul 28, 11:37 pm, r...@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) wrote:

> Oliver Cromm <lispamat...@crommatograph.info> writes:
> >I increasingly get this impression, and that makes discussing
> >with you pointless.
>

>   There also exist German ego-translators claiming to bring
>   some famous work into »their German«, the German of the
>   translator, that is. For an example, seehttp://www.faz.net/aktuell/feuilleton/buecher/rezensionen/belletristi...http://www.literaturkritik.de/public/rezension.php?rez_id=7524
>   .

What I am trying to say is that if the English sounds odd, no matter
how 'justified', the translator, not the author, will be blamed.

"Kant's text is more corrupt than that of any Greek classic.
He lived at Königsberg, and his book was printed at Leipzig, and for
half of it
he saw no proof-sheets at all. His style is so fearful that one never
knows what
he may, and what he may not, allow himself to write. If, as
translator, one
makes his writing to construe, one is blamed; if one gives a faithful
reading,
one is blamed also."

Müller, F. Max (1902). The Life and Letters of the Right Honourable
Friedrich Max Müller. Edited by
His Wife, 2 vols. London: Longmans, Green and Co., p 366-367.

[UC]

On Jul 28, 8:38 am, Oliver Cromm <lispamat...@crommatograph.info>

I meant other English speakers. I don't care what they think. Many
'English speakers' in the US are not worthy of that name.

[Joachim Pense]

Am 29.07.2012 18:32, schrieb UC:
> On Jul 28, 11:37 pm, r...@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) wrote:
>> Oliver Cromm <lispamat...@crommatograph.info> writes:
>>> I increasingly get this impression, and that makes discussing
>>> with you pointless.
>>
>> There also exist German ego-translators claiming to bring
>> some famous work into �their German�, the German of the
>> translator, that is. For an example, seehttp://www.faz.net/aktuell/feuilleton/buecher/rezensionen/belletristi...http://www.literaturkritik.de/public/rezension.php?rez_id=7524
>> .
>
> What I am trying to say is that if the English sounds odd, no matter
> how 'justified', the translator, not the author, will be blamed.
>

While there are some experts on English in this group, you will find
more active participants who are native speakers of German.

What we can contribute is our understanding of the meaning of the German
text, not the fine points of the English translation.

To discuss how literal a translation should be, you should probably use
sci.lang.translation.

Joachim

[UC]

On Jul 29, 7:34 pm, Joachim Pense <s...@pense-mainz.eu> wrote:
> Am 29.07.2012 18:32, schrieb UC:
>
> > On Jul 28, 11:37 pm, r...@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) wrote:
> >> Oliver Cromm <lispamat...@crommatograph.info> writes:
> >>> I increasingly get this impression, and that makes discussing
> >>> with you pointless.
>
> >>    There also exist German ego-translators claiming to bring
> >>    some famous work into »their German«, the German of the
> >>    translator, that is. For an example, seehttp://www.faz.net/aktuell/feuilleton/buecher/rezensionen/belletristi...

> >>    .
>
> > What I am trying to say is that if the English sounds odd, no matter
> > how 'justified', the translator, not the author, will be blamed.
>
> While there are some experts on English in this group, you will find
> more active participants who are native speakers of German.
>
> What we can contribute is our understanding of the meaning of the German
> text, not the fine points of the English translation.
>
> To discuss how literal a translation should be, you should probably use
> sci.lang.translation.
>
> Joachim

I have the distinct impression that a native German speaker, no matter
how proficient he is in English, will find it almost impossible to
produce a translation into English that is perfectly idiomatic. I
believe this is due to 'allegiance' to the native tongue. This is what
I find most bothersome about Walter Kaufmann's translations.
Consciously or unconsciously, the native German feels every little
detail of the German must be brought out. The result is often a too-
busy sentence. One exception is Francis Golffing, whose translation of
the Genealogy of Morals is at times stunningly brilliant.
Unfortunately, he sometimes clips off phrases and indeed even entire
sentences. But one is tempted to borrow from him when he comes up with
a particularly brilliant formulation.

[Oliver Cromm]

* UC:

> Well we UNDERSTAND them, of course; the point I was making was that we
> know what 'good English' is.

OK, I'll stop hunting the moving target - first idiomatic English,
then UC-idiomatic English (with nationalistic undertones), now
"good" English.

Let me tell you, though, that the concept of "good English" that I
get from you is not only elitist, but also limiting.

It is elitist, not just because what you mean is likely based on
some Oxbridge-inbred tradition, but simply because most people,
even many academics, can't produce it - after all, they are
specialists in some subject, not in writing.

It is limiting because it implies you care more for a nice read
than for what the author has to say. Some people even find
unidiomatic English, for example from foreign writers, refreshing
and inspiring - it can break your routine and open the mind to new
ways of thinking, even ways that may be harder to come by if you
only read and think in English.

Moreover, in consequence, you seem to hold translators to a higher
standard than original authors, which seems a little perverse.

I have another musical parable there for you:

"Musikalischer Ausdruck ist wichtiger als saubere Intonation!"

Again I'm a bit hazy as to who this is ascribed to, maybe Max
Reger. I think it was not a theoretical statement, but a
spontaneous utterance during a rehearsal.

Of course, on a professional level, musicians strive to perfect
both aspects, but where both can't be had, I agree with the
statement: I'd rather listen to an amateur who makes lots of
mistakes, but gives me the impression he or she cares for the
music and has understood something about it, than to a technically
near-perfect execution mostly devoid of expression.

So if you mostly care about how easy to read something is, you
should stick with /belles-lettres/, where this is a major goal of
the endeavor. If you care about ideas, be ready to work through
someone's quirky style, occasionally - whether in their native
language or in translation.

--
*Multitasking* /v./ Screwing up several things at once

[Oliver Cromm]

* UC:

> I meant other English speakers. I don't care what they think. Many
> 'English speakers' in the US are not worthy of that name.

I know what you meant, but it is my genuine impression that it
applies in the more general sense, too - since you found it
"unbelievable" that someone wouldn't agree with you on what the
best translation is.

--
The nice thing about standards is that you have so many to choose
from; furthermore, if you do not like any of them, you can just
wait for next year's model.
Andrew Tanenbaum, _Computer Networks_ (1981), p. 168.

[UC]

On Jul 30, 1:49 pm, Oliver Cromm <lispamat...@crommatograph.info>
wrote:

Well of the other two, one was actually wrong about 'it', and both
were in part incomprehensible. No native English speaker would ever
say 'deduct a benefit' or 'deduct a utility'. It literally makes no
sense. It's gibberish and should be condemned for that very reason. It
may be in English words, but unless it's in English idiom it can
easily turn into gibberish.

I also do not 'buy' the idea that foreign ideas cannot be expressed in
idiomatic English. For decades we have been told that
'Selbstüberwindung' is correctly translated as 'self-overcoming', but
I find no trace of 'self-overcoming' in any text that is not a
translation of Nietzsche or a reference to Nietzsche. The word
'Selbstüberwindung' is best translated as 'will power', 'strength of
mind', 'self-mastery' or 'self-control' or something along those
lines. You don't need to create some special vocabulary to translate
Nietzsche. Novel ideas can certainly be expressed idiomatically. They
are in fact MORE intelligible when translated idiomatically.

The example translation shows this.

[UC]

On Jul 30, 1:49 pm, Oliver Cromm <lispamat...@crommatograph.info>
wrote:

>

> It is limiting because it implies you care more for a nice read
> than for what the author has to say. Some people even find
> unidiomatic English, for example from foreign writers, refreshing
> and inspiring - it can break your routine and open the mind to new
> ways of thinking, even ways that may be harder to come by if you
> only read and think in English.

I disagree.

But when Nietzsche seems 'lost and confused' I try to make that come
across in the translation without making it a total waste of time for
the reader. When he is discussing and criticising Kantian metaphysics
he is totally out of his depth, and the writing shows that.

[Joachim Pense]

Am 30.07.2012 20:02, schrieb UC:

>
> I also do not 'buy' the idea that foreign ideas cannot be expressed in
> idiomatic English. For decades we have been told that
> 'Selbstüberwindung' is correctly translated as 'self-overcoming', but
> I find no trace of 'self-overcoming' in any text that is not a
> translation of Nietzsche or a reference to Nietzsche. The word
> 'Selbstüberwindung' is best translated as 'will power', 'strength of
> mind', 'self-mastery' or 'self-control' or something along those
> lines. You don't need to create some special vocabulary to translate
> Nietzsche. Novel ideas can certainly be expressed idiomatically. They
> are in fact MORE intelligible when translated idiomatically.
>

I don't know about Nietzsche, but "Selbstüberwindung" looks just like a
typical German word-composition coined on the spot. "Self-overcoming"
sounds like a literal translation to me - it may not exist in older
records of English, but that's typical for coined word-compositions.
Neither of your translation suggestions ('will power', 'strength of
mind', 'self-mastery', 'self-control') seems to match the idea of
"Selbstüberwindung. All your four examples describe a state of mind, a
certain kind of strength. But "Selbstüberwindung" is something dynamic,
you fight against your self and succeed. I don't master English well,
but I would vote for "self-overcoming" as a translation of the word
better than the ones you offered.

Joachim

[Joachim Pense]

Am 30.07.2012 20:10, schrieb UC:
> On Jul 30, 1:49 pm, Oliver Cromm <lispamat...@crommatograph.info>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> It is limiting because it implies you care more for a nice read
>> than for what the author has to say. Some people even find
>> unidiomatic English, for example from foreign writers, refreshing
>> and inspiring - it can break your routine and open the mind to new
>> ways of thinking, even ways that may be harder to come by if you
>> only read and think in English.
>
> I disagree.
>
> But when Nietzsche seems 'lost and confused' I try to make that come
> across in the translation without making it a total waste of time for
> the reader.

You like to simplify the original. That could be done in German as well,
without any foreign language involved - but will it preserve the
original ideas?

Indeed, it seems to be very difficult to translate texts as involved as
those by Nietzsche. You will have to be a native speaker of German, and
of English, and you have to understand Nietzsche's philosophy.

Joachim

[UC]

On Jul 30, 2:15 pm, Joachim Pense <s...@pense-mainz.eu> wrote:
> Am 30.07.2012 20:02, schrieb UC:
>
>
>
> > I also do not 'buy' the idea that foreign ideas cannot be expressed in
> > idiomatic English. For decades we have been told that
> > 'Selbstüberwindung' is correctly translated as 'self-overcoming', but
> > I find no trace of  'self-overcoming' in any text that is not a
> > translation of Nietzsche or a reference to Nietzsche. The word
> > 'Selbstüberwindung' is best translated as 'will power', 'strength of
> > mind', 'self-mastery' or 'self-control' or something along those
> > lines. You don't need to create some special vocabulary to translate
> > Nietzsche. Novel ideas can certainly be expressed idiomatically. They
> > are in fact MORE intelligible when translated idiomatically.
>
> I don't know about Nietzsche, but "Selbstüberwindung" looks just like a
> typical German word-composition coined on the spot. "Self-overcoming"
> sounds like a literal translation to me - it may not exist in older
> records of English, but that's typical for coined word-compositions.

Well look in general G-E dictionaries such as the Oxford-Duden or
Collins.

> Neither of your translation suggestions ('will power', 'strength of
> mind', 'self-mastery', 'self-control') seems to match the idea of
> "Selbstüberwindung.

Again, see above.

> All your four examples describe a state of mind, a
> certain kind of strength. But "Selbstüberwindung" is something dynamic,
> you fight against your self and succeed. I don't master English well,
> but I would vote for "self-overcoming" as a translation of the word
> better than the ones you offered.
>
> Joachim

It's not a recognized English word. Does not appear in any of the
major English dictionaries that I checked.

[UC]

On Jul 30, 2:19 pm, Joachim Pense <s...@pense-mainz.eu> wrote:
> Am 30.07.2012 20:10, schrieb UC:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 30, 1:49 pm, Oliver Cromm <lispamat...@crommatograph.info>
> > wrote:
>
> >> It is limiting because it implies you care more for a nice read
> >> than for what the author has to say. Some people even find
> >> unidiomatic English, for example from foreign writers, refreshing
> >> and inspiring - it can break your routine and open the mind to new
> >> ways of thinking, even ways that may be harder to come by if you
> >> only read and think in English.
>
> > I disagree.
>
> > But when Nietzsche seems 'lost and confused' I try to make that come
> > across in the translation without making it a total waste of time for
> > the reader.
>
> You like to simplify the original. That could be done in German as well,
> without any foreign language involved - but will it preserve the
> original ideas?

It doesn't have to. How many ways do you have to say 'angry'? We get
the point.

> Indeed, it seems to be very difficult to translate texts as involved as
> those by Nietzsche. You will have to be a native speaker of German, and
> of English, and you have to understand Nietzsche's philosophy.
>
> Joachim

It's both easier and harder than you think.

[UC]

On Jul 30, 3:19 pm, r...@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) wrote:

> Joachim Pense <s...@pense-mainz.eu> writes:
> >Neither of your translation suggestions ('will power', 'strength of
> >mind', 'self-mastery', 'self-control') seems to match the idea of

> >"Selbst berwindung. All your four examples describe a state of mind, a
>
>   Will power is a/the typical common dictionary-translation
>   of berwindung in this context, or of Selbst berwindung .
>   See, for example:
>
> http://en.pons.eu/german-english/Selbst%C3%BCberwindung
>
>   . There are more examples like this, but no source gives
>   self-overcoming . The dictionary entries also show that
>   it does not necessarily have to be coined on the spot .

Precisely. Thanks!

[UC]

Also:

http://en.pons.eu/dict/search/results/?q=%C3%BCberwindung&l=deen&in=&lf=de

[Oliver Cromm]

* Arno Martens:

> �Fri, 27 Jul 2012 13:41:46 -0400, Oliver Cromm
> <lispa...@crommatograph.info>, wrote:
>>--
>>A chrysanthemum by any other name would be easier to spell.
>> Peter Moylan in alt.usage.english
>
> But you *know* that everyone just calls them "mums".
> ;->)

No, I didn't know - everyone must have kept mum on that towards
me.

Do they, really?

--
Java is kind of like kindergarten. There are lots of rules you
have to remember. If you don't follow them, the compiler makes
you sit in the corner until you do.
Don Raab

[UC]

On Jul 30, 3:19 pm, r...@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) wrote:
> Joachim Pense <s...@pense-mainz.eu> writes:

> >Neither of your translation suggestions ('will power', 'strength of
> >mind', 'self-mastery', 'self-control') seems to match the idea of

> >"Selbst berwindung. All your four examples describe a state of mind, a
>
>   Will power is a/the typical common dictionary-translation
>   of berwindung in this context, or of Selbst berwindung .
>   See, for example:
>
> http://en.pons.eu/german-english/Selbst%C3%BCberwindung
>
>   . There are more examples like this, but no source gives
>   self-overcoming . The dictionary entries also show that
>   it does not necessarily have to be coined on the spot .

I think some would argue that there is a special 'philosophical'
vocabulary that has to be used, to which I say 'bah!'.

[Oliver Cromm]

* UC:

> I also do not 'buy' the idea that foreign ideas cannot be expressed in
> idiomatic English.

Maybe not - if an original author expressed them, they might well
have come out in idiomatic English.

But there is a danger that in a language that is very smooth you
won't notice what is original about the ideas.

By making the translation smoother than the original, you add that
on top of the usual loss that occurs in any translation.

I do see that there is a danger, maybe even greater, that vague
language hides a lack of clear thinking. In this I see the real
difference between English philosophical works and German/French
ones: a tradition of clarity and simplicity in the English
tradition (just compare Hume to Kant).

I just find you too optimistic in your belief that you can improve
on the original in translation. If the clarity isn't there, and
you add it, you didn't just improve the language, you "corrected"
Nietzsche (or whoever you are translating), and that's not your
job as a translator. Write a book on the author, or a commentary
to the work, if you want to do that.

> For decades we have been told that

> 'Selbst�berwindung' is correctly translated as 'self-overcoming', but

> I find no trace of 'self-overcoming' in any text that is not a
> translation of Nietzsche or a reference to Nietzsche. The word

> 'Selbst�berwindung' is best translated as 'will power', 'strength of

> mind', 'self-mastery' or 'self-control' or something along those
> lines. You don't need to create some special vocabulary to translate
> Nietzsche. Novel ideas can certainly be expressed idiomatically. They
> are in fact MORE intelligible when translated idiomatically.
>
> The example translation shows this.

In many contexts, "will power" can be a good translation, because
that was the important aspect of "Selbst�berwindung" for the
original author. However, if the aspect of overcoming one's own
inclinations (and not just laziness) is central to the
argumentation, another translation may be more appropriate.
"Self-mastery" sounds pretty good to me, if that is indeed more
idiomatic than "self-overcoming" (I never heard either in
English).

--
XML combines all the inefficiency of text-based formats with most
of the unreadability of binary formats.
Oren Tirosh, comp.lang.python

[UC]

On Jul 31, 1:40 pm, Oliver Cromm <lispamat...@crommatograph.info>
wrote:

> * UC:
>
> > I also do not 'buy' the idea that foreign ideas cannot be expressed in
> > idiomatic English.
>
> Maybe not - if an original author expressed them, they might well
> have come out in idiomatic English.

My principle is that it should be translated as if 'als ob' it were
written by a native speaker.

> But there is a danger that in a language that is very smooth you
> won't notice what is original about the ideas.

On the contrary. Is it hard to understand this:

"Mankind owes more to evil men than to good ones"?

> By making the translation smoother than the original, you add that
> on top of the usual loss that occurs in any translation.

On the contrary. When an expression is NOT idiomatic, it causes the
mind to halt and become confused; the flow of thought is interrupted.

> I do see that there is a danger, maybe even greater, that vague
> language hides a lack of clear thinking.

As I said, when Nietzsche is vague I do try to capture that. That is
not frequent.

> In this I see the real
> difference between English philosophical works and German/French
> ones: a tradition of clarity and simplicity in the English
> tradition (just compare Hume to Kant).

Of course, but Nietzsche was no Kant. When Nietzsche tries to
criticize Kant he fails miserably. He doesn't understand Kant.

> I just find you too optimistic in your belief that you can improve
> on the original in translation. If the clarity isn't there, and
> you add it, you didn't just improve the language, you "corrected"
> Nietzsche (or whoever you are translating), and that's not your
> job as a translator. Write a book on the author, or a commentary
> to the work, if you want to do that.

Making it idiomatic is not making it clearer. Two distinct things. But
in some cases you have to make a decision among several possibilities.
You have no choice. You cannot hover between one and the other. The
ambiguity has to be resolved, one way or the other.

> > For decades we have been told that
> > 'Selbst berwindung' is correctly translated as 'self-overcoming', but
> > I find no trace of  'self-overcoming' in any text that is not a
> > translation of Nietzsche or a reference to Nietzsche. The word
> > 'Selbst berwindung' is best translated as 'will power', 'strength of
> > mind', 'self-mastery' or 'self-control' or something along those
> > lines. You don't need to create some special vocabulary to translate
> > Nietzsche. Novel ideas can certainly be expressed idiomatically. They
> > are in fact MORE intelligible when translated idiomatically.
>
> > The example translation shows this.
>
> In many contexts, "will power" can be a good translation, because
> that was the important aspect of "Selbst berwindung" for the
> original author. However, if the aspect of overcoming one's own
> inclinations (and not just laziness) is central to the
> argumentation, another translation may be more appropriate.
> "Self-mastery" sounds pretty good to me, if that is indeed more
> idiomatic than "self-overcoming" (I never heard either in
> English).

Self-mastery is not common, but is common enough:

"A heavy footfall as of persons marching in procession came nearer and
nearer, and as the sounds without sank into sobs of bitterness and
woe, the black pall of a coffin, borne on men's shoulders, appeared at
the door, and an old man whose gray hair floated in the breeze, and
across whose stern features a struggle for self-mastery—a kind of
spasmodic effort—was playing, held out his hand to enforce silence.
His eye, lack-lustre and dimmed with age, roved over the assembled
multitude, but there was no recognition in his look until at last he
turned it on me. A slight hectic flush colored his pale cheek, his lip
trembled, he essayed to speak, but could not. I sprang towards him,
but choked by agony, I could not utter; my look, however, spoke what
my tongue could not. He threw his arms around me, and muttering the
words, "Poor Godfrey!" pointed to the coffin. "

CHARLES O'MALLEY
The Irish Dragoon
BY CHARLES LEVER. 1841

[Joachim Pense]

Am 31.07.2012 19:40, schrieb Oliver Cromm:
> * UC:

>

>
>> For decades we have been told that
>> 'Selbst�berwindung' is correctly translated as 'self-overcoming', but
>> I find no trace of 'self-overcoming' in any text that is not a
>> translation of Nietzsche or a reference to Nietzsche. The word
>> 'Selbst�berwindung' is best translated as 'will power', 'strength of
>> mind', 'self-mastery' or 'self-control' or something along those
>> lines. You don't need to create some special vocabulary to translate
>> Nietzsche. Novel ideas can certainly be expressed idiomatically. They
>> are in fact MORE intelligible when translated idiomatically.
>>
>> The example translation shows this.
>
> In many contexts, "will power" can be a good translation, because
> that was the important aspect of "Selbst�berwindung" for th

> original author. However, if the aspect of overcoming one's own
> inclinations (and not just laziness) is central to the
> argumentation, another translation may be more appropriate.
> "Self-mastery" sounds pretty good to me, if that is indeed more
> idiomatic than "self-overcoming" (I never heard either in
> English).
>

Again, both "Will power" and "Self-mastery" lack the dynamic aspect of
"Selbst�berwindung". "Mastery" implies that you are considerably
stronger than your opponent from the beginning; "�berwindung" suggests
that you are not, even weaker, but you manage to win by temporary
extreme effort.

Joachim

[UC]

On Jul 31, 2:51 pm, Joachim Pense <s...@pense-mainz.eu> wrote:
> Am 31.07.2012 19:40, schrieb Oliver Cromm:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > * UC:
>
> >> For decades we have been told that

> >> 'Selbstüberwindung' is correctly translated as 'self-overcoming', but

> >> I find no trace of  'self-overcoming' in any text that is not a
> >> translation of Nietzsche or a reference to Nietzsche. The word

> >> 'Selbstüberwindung' is best translated as 'will power', 'strength of

> >> mind', 'self-mastery' or 'self-control' or something along those
> >> lines. You don't need to create some special vocabulary to translate
> >> Nietzsche. Novel ideas can certainly be expressed idiomatically. They
> >> are in fact MORE intelligible when translated idiomatically.
>
> >> The example translation shows this.
>
> > In many contexts, "will power" can be a good translation, because

> > that was the important aspect of "Selbstüberwindung" for th

> > original author. However, if the aspect of overcoming one's own
> > inclinations (and not just laziness) is central to the
> > argumentation, another translation may be more appropriate.
> > "Self-mastery" sounds pretty good to me, if that is indeed more
> > idiomatic than "self-overcoming" (I never heard either in
> > English).
>
> Again, both "Will power" and "Self-mastery" lack the dynamic aspect of

> "Selbstüberwindung". "Mastery" implies that you are considerably
> stronger than your opponent from the beginning; "Überwindung" suggests

> that you are not, even weaker, but you manage to win by temporary
> extreme effort.
>
> Joachim

Translation isn't perfect, but idiomatic is best. Your allegiance is
to German. Mine is to English.

Ignore the religious and Nietzsche quotes:

http://www.linguee.com/english-german/search?source=auto&query=Selbst%FCberwindung

[UC]

On Jul 31, 2:51 pm, Joachim Pense <s...@pense-mainz.eu> wrote:

> Am 31.07.2012 19:40, schrieb Oliver Cromm:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > * UC:
>
> >> For decades we have been told that

> >> 'Selbstüberwindung' is correctly translated as 'self-overcoming', but

> >> I find no trace of  'self-overcoming' in any text that is not a
> >> translation of Nietzsche or a reference to Nietzsche. The word

> >> 'Selbstüberwindung' is best translated as 'will power', 'strength of

> >> mind', 'self-mastery' or 'self-control' or something along those
> >> lines. You don't need to create some special vocabulary to translate
> >> Nietzsche. Novel ideas can certainly be expressed idiomatically. They
> >> are in fact MORE intelligible when translated idiomatically.
>
> >> The example translation shows this.
>
> > In many contexts, "will power" can be a good translation, because

> > that was the important aspect of "Selbstüberwindung" for th

> > original author. However, if the aspect of overcoming one's own
> > inclinations (and not just laziness) is central to the
> > argumentation, another translation may be more appropriate.
> > "Self-mastery" sounds pretty good to me, if that is indeed more
> > idiomatic than "self-overcoming" (I never heard either in
> > English).
>
> Again, both "Will power" and "Self-mastery" lack the dynamic aspect of

> "Selbstüberwindung". "Mastery" implies that you are considerably
> stronger than your opponent from the beginning; "Überwindung" suggests

> that you are not, even weaker, but you manage to win by temporary
> extreme effort.
>
> Joachim

Die Natur ansehn, als ob sie ein Beweis für die Güte und Obhut eines
Gottes sei; die Geschichte interpretiren zu Ehren einer göttlichen
Vernunft, als beständiges Zeugniss einer sittlichen Weltordnung und
sittlicher Schlussabsichten; die eigenen Erlebnisse auslegen, wie sie
fromme Menschen lange genug ausgelegt haben, wie als ob Alles Fügung,
Alles Wink, Alles dem Heil der Seele zu Liebe ausgedacht und geschickt
sei: das ist nunmehr vorbei, das hat das Gewissen gegen sich, das gilt
allen feineren Gewissen als unanständig, unehrlich, als Lügnerei,
Feminismus, Schwachheit, Feigheit, – mit dieser Strenge, wenn irgend
womit, sind wir eben gute Europäer und Erben von Europa's längster und
tapferster Selbstüberwindung«... Alle grossen Dinge gehen durch sich
selbst zu Grunde, durch einen Akt der Selbstaufhebung: so will es das
Gesetz des Lebens, das Gesetz der nothwendigen »Selbstüberwindung« im
Wesen des Lebens, – immer ergeht zuletzt an den Gesetzgeber selbst der
Ruf: »patere legem, quam ipse tulisti.« Dergestalt gieng das
Christenthum als Dogma zu Grunde, an seiner eignen Moral; dergestalt
muss nun auch das Christenthum als Moral noch zu Grunde gehn, – wir
stehen an der Schwelle dieses Ereignisses. Nachdem die christliche
Wahrhaftigkeit einen Schluss nach dem andern gezogen hat, zieht sie am
Ende ihren stärksten Schluss, ihren Schluss gegen sich selbst; dies
aber geschieht, wenn sie die Frage stellt »was bedeutet aller Wille
zur Wahrheit?«..

Regarding Nature as though it were proof of divine goodness and
benevolence; interpreting history as the glorification of Divine
Reason, as the testimony of a moral world order, a moral teleology;
interpreting our personal experiences, as the pious have long done, as
though every single thing were ordained, and arranged out of love, for
the salvation of the soul; all this is now done away with, our
conscience rebels against it; we regard it as indecent, dishonourable,
dishonest, weak, feminine, cowardly. It is this rigour, if anything,
which makes us good Europeans and heirs of Europe’s oldest and
staunchest self-mastery’. . .
.
All great things perish by their own accord, by a deliberate act of
self-destruction; this is the law of life, the law of necessary ‘self-
mastery’ in the essence of life. The legislator himself must heed the
cry, ‘patere legem quam ipse tulisti’. In this way Christianity as a
dogma came to ruin, through its own morality; in the same way
Christianity as a morality must now come to ruin—we are standing on
the threshold of this event. After Christian truthfulness has drawn
one conclusion after the other, it finally draws its strongest
conclusion, the conclusion by which it must do away with itself; this,
however, happens, when it asks the question, ‘what is the meaning of
desire for truth?’

[Joachim Pense]

Am 31.07.2012 21:06, schrieb UC:
> On Jul 31, 2:51 pm, Joachim Pense <s...@pense-mainz.eu> wrote:
>> Am 31.07.2012 19:40, schrieb Oliver Cromm:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> * UC:
>>
>>>> For decades we have been told that

>>>> 'Selbst�berwindung' is correctly translated as 'self-overcoming', but

>>>> I find no trace of 'self-overcoming' in any text that is not a
>>>> translation of Nietzsche or a reference to Nietzsche. The word

>>>> 'Selbst�berwindung' is best translated as 'will power', 'strength of

>>>> mind', 'self-mastery' or 'self-control' or something along those
>>>> lines. You don't need to create some special vocabulary to translate
>>>> Nietzsche. Novel ideas can certainly be expressed idiomatically. They
>>>> are in fact MORE intelligible when translated idiomatically.
>>
>>>> The example translation shows this.
>>
>>> In many contexts, "will power" can be a good translation, because

>>> that was the important aspect of "Selbst�berwindung" for th

>>> original author. However, if the aspect of overcoming one's own
>>> inclinations (and not just laziness) is central to the
>>> argumentation, another translation may be more appropriate.
>>> "Self-mastery" sounds pretty good to me, if that is indeed more
>>> idiomatic than "self-overcoming" (I never heard either in
>>> English).
>>
>> Again, both "Will power" and "Self-mastery" lack the dynamic aspect of

>> "Selbst�berwindung". "Mastery" implies that you are considerably
>> stronger than your opponent from the beginning; "�berwindung" suggests

>> that you are not, even weaker, but you manage to win by temporary
>> extreme effort.
>>
>> Joachim
>

> Die Natur ansehn, als ob sie ein Beweis f�r die G�te und Obhut eines
> Gottes sei; die Geschichte interpretiren zu Ehren einer g�ttlichen
> Vernunft, als best�ndiges Zeugniss einer sittlichen Weltordnung und

> sittlicher Schlussabsichten; die eigenen Erlebnisse auslegen, wie sie

> fromme Menschen lange genug ausgelegt haben, wie als ob Alles F�gung,

> Alles Wink, Alles dem Heil der Seele zu Liebe ausgedacht und geschickt
> sei: das ist nunmehr vorbei, das hat das Gewissen gegen sich, das gilt

> allen feineren Gewissen als unanst�ndig, unehrlich, als L�gnerei,
> Feminismus, Schwachheit, Feigheit, � mit dieser Strenge, wenn irgend
> womit, sind wir eben gute Europ�er und Erben von Europa's l�ngster und
> tapferster Selbst�berwindung�... Alle grossen Dinge gehen durch sich

> selbst zu Grunde, durch einen Akt der Selbstaufhebung: so will es das

> Gesetz des Lebens, das Gesetz der nothwendigen �Selbst�berwindung� im
> Wesen des Lebens, � immer ergeht zuletzt an den Gesetzgeber selbst der
> Ruf: �patere legem, quam ipse tulisti.� Dergestalt gieng das

> Christenthum als Dogma zu Grunde, an seiner eignen Moral; dergestalt

> muss nun auch das Christenthum als Moral noch zu Grunde gehn, � wir

> stehen an der Schwelle dieses Ereignisses. Nachdem die christliche
> Wahrhaftigkeit einen Schluss nach dem andern gezogen hat, zieht sie am

> Ende ihren st�rksten Schluss, ihren Schluss gegen sich selbst; dies
> aber geschieht, wenn sie die Frage stellt �was bedeutet aller Wille
> zur Wahrheit?�..

>

> Regarding Nature as though it were proof of divine goodness and
> benevolence; interpreting history as the glorification of Divine
> Reason, as the testimony of a moral world order, a moral teleology;
> interpreting our personal experiences, as the pious have long done, as
> though every single thing were ordained, and arranged out of love, for
> the salvation of the soul; all this is now done away with, our
> conscience rebels against it; we regard it as indecent, dishonourable,
> dishonest, weak, feminine, cowardly. It is this rigour, if anything,

> which makes us good Europeans and heirs of Europe�s oldest and
> staunchest self-mastery�. . .

> .
> All great things perish by their own accord, by a deliberate act of

> self-destruction; this is the law of life, the law of necessary �self-
> mastery� in the essence of life. The legislator himself must heed the
> cry, �patere legem quam ipse tulisti�. In this way Christianity as a

> dogma came to ruin, through its own morality; in the same way

> Christianity as a morality must now come to ruin�we are standing on

> the threshold of this event. After Christian truthfulness has drawn
> one conclusion after the other, it finally draws its strongest
> conclusion, the conclusion by which it must do away with itself; this,

> however, happens, when it asks the question, �what is the meaning of
> desire for truth?�
>

You win against yourself in a destructive fight. (Or Europe etc. do) Is
this covered by "self-mastery"?

"Self-mastery" suggests to me a highly disciplined person - the person
is in a stable state due to mastering him/herself; I don't expect any
movement towards self-destruction.

Joachim

[UC]

On Jul 31, 3:31 pm, Joachim Pense <s...@pense-mainz.eu> wrote:
> Am 31.07.2012 21:06, schrieb UC:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 31, 2:51 pm, Joachim Pense <s...@pense-mainz.eu> wrote:
> >> Am 31.07.2012 19:40, schrieb Oliver Cromm:
>
> >>> * UC:
>
> >>>> For decades we have been told that

> >>>> 'Selbstüberwindung' is correctly translated as 'self-overcoming', but

> >>>> I find no trace of  'self-overcoming' in any text that is not a
> >>>> translation of Nietzsche or a reference to Nietzsche. The word

> >>>> 'Selbstüberwindung' is best translated as 'will power', 'strength of

> >>>> mind', 'self-mastery' or 'self-control' or something along those
> >>>> lines. You don't need to create some special vocabulary to translate
> >>>> Nietzsche. Novel ideas can certainly be expressed idiomatically. They
> >>>> are in fact MORE intelligible when translated idiomatically.
>
> >>>> The example translation shows this.
>
> >>> In many contexts, "will power" can be a good translation, because

> >>> that was the important aspect of "Selbstüberwindung" for th

> >>> original author. However, if the aspect of overcoming one's own
> >>> inclinations (and not just laziness) is central to the
> >>> argumentation, another translation may be more appropriate.
> >>> "Self-mastery" sounds pretty good to me, if that is indeed more
> >>> idiomatic than "self-overcoming" (I never heard either in
> >>> English).
>
> >> Again, both "Will power" and "Self-mastery" lack the dynamic aspect of

> >> "Selbstüberwindung". "Mastery" implies that you are considerably
> >> stronger than your opponent from the beginning; "Überwindung" suggests

> >> that you are not, even weaker, but you manage to win by temporary
> >> extreme effort.
>
> >> Joachim
>

> > Die Natur ansehn, als ob sie ein Beweis für die Güte und Obhut eines
> > Gottes sei; die Geschichte interpretiren zu Ehren einer göttlichen
> > Vernunft, als beständiges Zeugniss einer sittlichen Weltordnung und

> > sittlicher Schlussabsichten; die eigenen Erlebnisse auslegen, wie sie

> > fromme Menschen lange genug ausgelegt haben, wie als ob Alles Fügung,

> > Alles Wink, Alles dem Heil der Seele zu Liebe ausgedacht und geschickt
> > sei: das ist nunmehr vorbei, das hat das Gewissen gegen sich, das gilt

> > allen feineren Gewissen als unanständig, unehrlich, als Lügnerei,

> > Feminismus, Schwachheit, Feigheit, – mit dieser Strenge, wenn irgend
> > womit, sind wir eben gute Europäer und Erben von Europa's längster und
> > tapferster Selbstüberwindung«... Alle grossen Dinge gehen durch sich

> > selbst zu Grunde, durch einen Akt der Selbstaufhebung: so will es das

> > Gesetz des Lebens, das Gesetz der nothwendigen »Selbstüberwindung« im
> > Wesen des Lebens, – immer ergeht zuletzt an den Gesetzgeber selbst der

> > Ruf: »patere legem, quam ipse tulisti.« Dergestalt gieng das

> > Christenthum als Dogma zu Grunde, an seiner eignen Moral; dergestalt

> > muss nun auch das Christenthum als Moral noch zu Grunde gehn, – wir

> > stehen an der Schwelle dieses Ereignisses. Nachdem die christliche
> > Wahrhaftigkeit einen Schluss nach dem andern gezogen hat, zieht sie am

> > Ende ihren stärksten Schluss, ihren Schluss gegen sich selbst; dies
> > aber geschieht, wenn sie die Frage stellt »was bedeutet aller Wille
> > zur Wahrheit?«..

>
> > Regarding Nature as though it were proof of divine goodness and
> > benevolence; interpreting history as the glorification of Divine
> > Reason, as the testimony of a moral world order, a moral teleology;
> > interpreting our personal experiences, as the pious have long done, as
> > though every single thing were ordained, and arranged out of love, for
> > the salvation of the soul; all this is now done away with, our
> > conscience rebels against it; we regard it as indecent, dishonourable,
> > dishonest, weak, feminine, cowardly. It is this rigour, if anything,

> > which makes us good Europeans and heirs of Europe’s oldest and

> > staunchest self-mastery’. . .

> > .
> > All great things perish by their own accord, by a deliberate act of

> > self-destruction; this is the law of life, the law of necessary ‘self-
> > mastery’ in the essence of life. The legislator himself must heed the

> > cry, ‘patere legem quam ipse tulisti’.   In this way Christianity as a

> > dogma came to ruin, through its own morality; in the same way

> > Christianity as a morality must now come to ruin—we are standing on

> > the threshold of this event. After Christian truthfulness has drawn
> > one conclusion after the other, it finally draws its strongest
> > conclusion, the conclusion by which it must do away with itself; this,

> > however, happens, when it asks the question, ‘what is the meaning of
> > desire for truth?’

>
> You win against yourself in a destructive fight.  (Or Europe etc. do) Is
> this covered by "self-mastery"?
>
> "Self-mastery" suggests to me a highly disciplined person - the person
> is in a stable state due to mastering him/herself; I don't expect any
> movement towards self-destruction.
>
> Joachim

I must admit this is rather opaque and that I don't get it all.

[UC]

On Jul 31, 3:31 pm, Joachim Pense <s...@pense-mainz.eu> wrote:
>
> > Die Natur ansehn, als ob sie ein Beweis für die Güte und Obhut eines
> > Gottes sei; die Geschichte interpretiren zu Ehren einer göttlichen
> > Vernunft, als beständiges Zeugniss einer sittlichen Weltordnung und

> > sittlicher Schlussabsichten; die eigenen Erlebnisse auslegen, wie sie

> > fromme Menschen lange genug ausgelegt haben, wie als ob Alles Fügung,

> > Alles Wink, Alles dem Heil der Seele zu Liebe ausgedacht und geschickt
> > sei: das ist nunmehr vorbei, das hat das Gewissen gegen sich, das gilt

> > allen feineren Gewissen als unanständig, unehrlich, als Lügnerei,

> > Feminismus, Schwachheit, Feigheit, – mit dieser Strenge, wenn irgend
> > womit, sind wir eben gute Europäer und Erben von Europa's längster und
> > tapferster Selbstüberwindung«... Alle grossen Dinge gehen durch sich

> > selbst zu Grunde, durch einen Akt der Selbstaufhebung: so will es das

> > Gesetz des Lebens, das Gesetz der nothwendigen »Selbstüberwindung« im
> > Wesen des Lebens, – immer ergeht zuletzt an den Gesetzgeber selbst der

> > Ruf: »patere legem, quam ipse tulisti.« Dergestalt gieng das

> > Christenthum als Dogma zu Grunde, an seiner eignen Moral; dergestalt

> > muss nun auch das Christenthum als Moral noch zu Grunde gehn, – wir

> > stehen an der Schwelle dieses Ereignisses. Nachdem die christliche
> > Wahrhaftigkeit einen Schluss nach dem andern gezogen hat, zieht sie am

> > Ende ihren stärksten Schluss, ihren Schluss gegen sich selbst; dies
> > aber geschieht, wenn sie die Frage stellt »was bedeutet aller Wille
> > zur Wahrheit?«..

>
> > Regarding Nature as though it were proof of divine goodness and
> > benevolence; interpreting history as the glorification of Divine
> > Reason, as the testimony of a moral world order, a moral teleology;
> > interpreting our personal experiences, as the pious have long done, as
> > though every single thing were ordained, and arranged out of love, for
> > the salvation of the soul; all this is now done away with, our
> > conscience rebels against it; we regard it as indecent, dishonourable,
> > dishonest, weak, feminine, cowardly. It is this rigour, if anything,

> > which makes us good Europeans and heirs of Europe’s oldest and

> > staunchest self-mastery’. . .

> > .
> > All great things perish by their own accord, by a deliberate act of

> > self-destruction; this is the law of life, the law of necessary ‘self-
> > mastery’ in the essence of life. The legislator himself must heed the

> > cry, ‘patere legem quam ipse tulisti’.   In this way Christianity as a

> > dogma came to ruin, through its own morality; in the same way

> > Christianity as a morality must now come to ruin—we are standing on

> > the threshold of this event. After Christian truthfulness has drawn
> > one conclusion after the other, it finally draws its strongest
> > conclusion, the conclusion by which it must do away with itself; this,

> > however, happens, when it asks the question, ‘what is the meaning of
> > desire for truth?’

>
> You win against yourself in a destructive fight.  (Or Europe etc. do) Is
> this covered by "self-mastery"?
>
> "Self-mastery" suggests to me a highly disciplined person - the person
> is in a stable state due to mastering him/herself; I don't expect any
> movement towards self-destruction.
>
> Joachim

Is 'ambition' possible in these locations?

[Joachim Pense]

Am 31.07.2012 21:37, schrieb UC:
> On Jul 31, 3:31 pm, Joachim Pense <s...@pense-mainz.eu> wrote:
>>

>>> Die Natur ansehn, als ob sie ein Beweis f�r die G�te und Obhut eines
>>> Gottes sei; die Geschichte interpretiren zu Ehren einer g�ttlichen

>>> Vernunft, als best�ndiges Zeugniss einer sittlichen Weltordnung und

>>> sittlicher Schlussabsichten; die eigenen Erlebnisse auslegen, wie sie

>>> fromme Menschen lange genug ausgelegt haben, wie als ob Alles F�gung,

>>> Alles Wink, Alles dem Heil der Seele zu Liebe ausgedacht und geschickt
>>> sei: das ist nunmehr vorbei, das hat das Gewissen gegen sich, das gilt

>>> allen feineren Gewissen als unanst�ndig, unehrlich, als L�gnerei,
>>> Feminismus, Schwachheit, Feigheit, � mit dieser Strenge, wenn irgend
>>> womit, sind wir eben gute Europ�er und Erben von Europa's l�ngster und

>>> tapferster Selbst�berwindung�... Alle grossen Dinge gehen durch sich

>>> selbst zu Grunde, durch einen Akt der Selbstaufhebung: so will es das

>>> Gesetz des Lebens, das Gesetz der nothwendigen �Selbst�berwindung� im
>>> Wesen des Lebens, � immer ergeht zuletzt an den Gesetzgeber selbst der

>>> Ruf: �patere legem, quam ipse tulisti.� Dergestalt gieng das

>>> Christenthum als Dogma zu Grunde, an seiner eignen Moral; dergestalt

>>> muss nun auch das Christenthum als Moral noch zu Grunde gehn, � wir

>>> stehen an der Schwelle dieses Ereignisses. Nachdem die christliche
>>> Wahrhaftigkeit einen Schluss nach dem andern gezogen hat, zieht sie am

>>> Ende ihren st�rksten Schluss, ihren Schluss gegen sich selbst; dies
>>> aber geschieht, wenn sie die Frage stellt �was bedeutet aller Wille
>>> zur Wahrheit?�..

>>
>>> Regarding Nature as though it were proof of divine goodness and
>>> benevolence; interpreting history as the glorification of Divine
>>> Reason, as the testimony of a moral world order, a moral teleology;
>>> interpreting our personal experiences, as the pious have long done, as
>>> though every single thing were ordained, and arranged out of love, for
>>> the salvation of the soul; all this is now done away with, our
>>> conscience rebels against it; we regard it as indecent, dishonourable,
>>> dishonest, weak, feminine, cowardly. It is this rigour, if anything,

>>> which makes us good Europeans and heirs of Europe�s oldest and

>>> staunchest self-mastery�. . .

>>> .
>>> All great things perish by their own accord, by a deliberate act of

>>> self-destruction; this is the law of life, the law of necessary �self-
>>> mastery� in the essence of life. The legislator himself must heed the

>>> cry, �patere legem quam ipse tulisti�. In this way Christianity as a

>>> dogma came to ruin, through its own morality; in the same way

>>> Christianity as a morality must now come to ruin�we are standing on

>>> the threshold of this event. After Christian truthfulness has drawn
>>> one conclusion after the other, it finally draws its strongest
>>> conclusion, the conclusion by which it must do away with itself; this,

>>> however, happens, when it asks the question, �what is the meaning of
>>> desire for truth?�

>>
>> You win against yourself in a destructive fight. (Or Europe etc. do) Is
>> this covered by "self-mastery"?
>>
>> "Self-mastery" suggests to me a highly disciplined person - the person
>> is in a stable state due to mastering him/herself; I don't expect any
>> movement towards self-destruction.
>>
>> Joachim
>
> Is 'ambition' possible in these locations?
>

The German word "Ambition" ('ambition'?) denotes something like an
intention; "Meisterschaft" ('mastery*?) is a state of skill.
"�berwindung" is a process: you can �berwinden a steep mountain, an
opponent, your own repulsion, your own desires.

If you master yourself, you need not �berwinden your desires. If your
mastery gets to its limits because the desires are so strong, then you
have to fight to �berwinden them. So "Selbst�berwindung" is a sign of
insufficient self-mastery.

Joachim

[UC]

On Jul 31, 3:52 pm, Joachim Pense <s...@pense-mainz.eu> wrote:
> Am 31.07.2012 21:37, schrieb UC:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 31, 3:31 pm, Joachim Pense <s...@pense-mainz.eu> wrote:
>

> >>> Die Natur ansehn, als ob sie ein Beweis für die Güte und Obhut eines
> >>> Gottes sei; die Geschichte interpretiren zu Ehren einer göttlichen
> >>> Vernunft, als beständiges Zeugniss einer sittlichen Weltordnung und

> >>> sittlicher Schlussabsichten; die eigenen Erlebnisse auslegen, wie sie

> >>> fromme Menschen lange genug ausgelegt haben, wie als ob Alles Fügung,

> >>> Alles Wink, Alles dem Heil der Seele zu Liebe ausgedacht und geschickt
> >>> sei: das ist nunmehr vorbei, das hat das Gewissen gegen sich, das gilt

> >>> allen feineren Gewissen als unanständig, unehrlich, als Lügnerei,

> >>> Feminismus, Schwachheit, Feigheit, – mit dieser Strenge, wenn irgend
> >>> womit, sind wir eben gute Europäer und Erben von Europa's längster und
> >>> tapferster Selbstüberwindung«... Alle grossen Dinge gehen durch sich

> >>> selbst zu Grunde, durch einen Akt der Selbstaufhebung: so will es das

> >>> Gesetz des Lebens, das Gesetz der nothwendigen »Selbstüberwindung« im
> >>> Wesen des Lebens, – immer ergeht zuletzt an den Gesetzgeber selbst der

> >>> Ruf: »patere legem, quam ipse tulisti.« Dergestalt gieng das

> >>> Christenthum als Dogma zu Grunde, an seiner eignen Moral; dergestalt

> >>> muss nun auch das Christenthum als Moral noch zu Grunde gehn, – wir

> >>> stehen an der Schwelle dieses Ereignisses. Nachdem die christliche
> >>> Wahrhaftigkeit einen Schluss nach dem andern gezogen hat, zieht sie am

> >>> Ende ihren stärksten Schluss, ihren Schluss gegen sich selbst; dies
> >>> aber geschieht, wenn sie die Frage stellt »was bedeutet aller Wille
> >>> zur Wahrheit?«..

>
> >>> Regarding Nature as though it were proof of divine goodness and
> >>> benevolence; interpreting history as the glorification of Divine
> >>> Reason, as the testimony of a moral world order, a moral teleology;
> >>> interpreting our personal experiences, as the pious have long done, as
> >>> though every single thing were ordained, and arranged out of love, for
> >>> the salvation of the soul; all this is now done away with, our
> >>> conscience rebels against it; we regard it as indecent, dishonourable,
> >>> dishonest, weak, feminine, cowardly. It is this rigour, if anything,

> >>> which makes us good Europeans and heirs of Europe’s oldest and

> >>> staunchest self-mastery’. . .

> >>> .
> >>> All great things perish by their own accord, by a deliberate act of

> >>> self-destruction; this is the law of life, the law of necessary ‘self-
> >>> mastery’ in the essence of life. The legislator himself must heed the

> >>> cry, ‘patere legem quam ipse tulisti’.   In this way Christianity as a

> >>> dogma came to ruin, through its own morality; in the same way

> >>> Christianity as a morality must now come to ruin—we are standing on

> >>> the threshold of this event. After Christian truthfulness has drawn
> >>> one conclusion after the other, it finally draws its strongest
> >>> conclusion, the conclusion by which it must do away with itself; this,

> >>> however, happens, when it asks the question, ‘what is the meaning of
> >>> desire for truth?’

>
> >> You win against yourself in a destructive fight.  (Or Europe etc. do) Is
> >> this covered by "self-mastery"?
>
> >> "Self-mastery" suggests to me a highly disciplined person - the person
> >> is in a stable state due to mastering him/herself; I don't expect any
> >> movement towards self-destruction.
>
> >> Joachim
>
> > Is 'ambition' possible in these locations?
>
> The German word "Ambition" ('ambition'?) denotes something like an
> intention; "Meisterschaft" ('mastery*?) is a state of skill.

> "Überwindung" is a process: you can überwinden a steep mountain, an

> opponent, your own repulsion, your own desires.
>

> If you master yourself, you need not überwinden your desires. If your

> mastery gets to its limits because the desires are so strong, then you

> have to fight to überwinden them. So "Selbstüberwindung" is a sign of
> insufficient self-mastery.
>
> Joachim

Self-conquest is what I decided upon. I had to look at it afresh.

[Joachim Pense]

Am 31.07.2012 21:56, schrieb UC:

>
> Self-conquest is what I decided upon. I had to look at it afresh.
>

That looks like a good one to me.

Joachim

[UC]

I now understand that it is an 'event'.

[Joachim Pense]

Yes, I think that was my main point.

Joachim

[UC]

Not a 'process' or a 'faculty'.

[UC]

On Jul 31, 5:18 pm, Joachim Pense <s...@pense-mainz.eu> wrote:

Which do you prefer?


Sieht man vom asketischen Ideale ab: so hatte der Mensch, das T h i e
r Mensch bisher keinen Sinn. Sein Dasein auf Erden enthielt kein
Ziel; „wozu Mensch überhaupt?“ — war eine Frage ohne Antwort; der W i
l l e für Mensch und Erde fehlte; hinter jedem grossen Menschen-
Schicksale klang als Refrain ein noch grösseres „Umsonst!“ D a s eben
bedeutet das asketische Ideal: dass Etwas f e h l t e , dass eine
ungeheure L ü c k e den Menschen umstand, — er wusste sich selbst
nicht zu rechtfertigen, zu erklären, zu bejahen, er l i t t am
Probleme seines Sinns. Er litt auch sonst, er war in der Hauptsache
ein k r a n k h a f t e s Thier: aber n i c h t das Leiden selbst war
sein Problem, sondern dass die Antwort fehlte für den Schrei der Frage
„w o z u leiden?“

Except for the ascetic ideal, man, the animal man, has had no meaning.
His existence on earth had no purpose; ‘What is the purpose of man at
all?’ was a question without an answer; the will for man and the world
was lacking; behind every great human destiny rang, like a refrain, a
still greater ‘in vain!’ The ascetic ideal simply means that something
was lacking, that man was surrounded by a tremendous void — he did not
know how to justify himself, to explain himself, to affirm himself; he
suffered from the problem of his own meaning. He suffered also in
other ways; he was in the main a diseased animal; his problem was not
suffering itself, though, but the lack of an answer to that crying
question, ‘Why do we suffer?’

Except for the ascetic ideal: man, the animal man, had no meaning up
to now. His existence on earth had no purpose; ‘What is man for,
actually?’– was a question without an answer; there was no will for
man and earth; behind every great human destiny sounded the even
louder refrain ‘in vain!’ This is what the ascetic ideal meant:
something was missing, there was an immense lacuna around man, – he
himself could think of no justification or explanation or affirmation,
he suffered from the problem of what he meant. Other things made him
suffer too, in the main he was a sickly animal: but suffering itself
was not his problem, instead, the fact that there was no answer to the
question he screamed, ‘Suffering for what?’

[Georg Waldgreve]

Am 26.07.2012 17:18, schrieb UC:
> Could someone please review and comment on these:
>
> The German:
> "Diese Liste ist gewiss nicht vollst�ndig; ersichtlich ist die Strafe
> mit N�tzlichkeiten aller Art �berladen. Um so eher darf man von ihr
> eine vermeintliche N�tzlichkeit in Abzug bringen, die allerdings im
> popul�ren Bewusstsein als ihre wesentlichste gilt, � der Glaube an die
> Strafe, der heute aus mehreren Gr�nden wackelt, findet gerade an ihr
> immer noch seine kr�ftigste St�tze."
>
- - - snip - - -
>

Well, not being a native English speaker or writer, I nevertheless
think that this discussion here arose from a problem which sometimes
can be led back to the incompleteness of the text given to translate.

The given excerpt is part of Nietsche�s �Jenseits von Gut und B�se. Zur
Genealogie der Moral�, and the quotation is from chapter 4.

Could it be that the text is better understood after reading what is
written after the incomplete quotation? At least my limited experience
tells me that it is easier to translate a German text into English if
the quotation is given in a more complete context. For me the given
text made more sense after reading the following sentences:

�Die Strafe soll den Werth haben, das Gef�hl der Schuld im Schuldigen
aufzuwecken, man sucht in ihr das eigentliche instrumentum jener
seelischen Reaktion, welche �schlechtes Gewissen�, �Gewissensbiss�
genannt wird. Aber damit vergreift man sich selbst f�r heute noch an
der Wirklichkeit und der Psychologie: und wie viel mehr f�r die l�ngste
Geschichte des Menschen, seine Vorgeschichte! Der �chte Gewissensbiss
ist gerade unter Verbrechern und Str�flingen etwas �usserst Seltenes,
die Gef�ngnisse, die Zuchth�user sind nicht die Brutst�tten, an denen
diese Species von Nagewurm mit Vorliebe gedeiht: � darin kommen alle
gewissenhaften Beobachter �berein, die in vielen F�llen ein derartiges
Urtheil ungern genug und wider die eigensten W�nsche abgeben. In's
Grosse gerechnet, h�rtet und k�ltet die Strafe ab; sie concentrirt; sie
versch�rft das Gef�hl der Entfremdung; sie st�rkt die Widerstandskraft.
Wenn es vorkommt, dass sie die Energie zerbricht und eine erb�rmliche
Prostration und Selbsterniedrigung zu Wege bringt, so ist ein solches
Ergebniss sicherlich noch weniger erquicklich als die durchschnittliche
Wirkung der Strafe: als welche sich durch einen trocknen d�steren Ernst
charakterisirt.�

Georg Waldgreve

[UC]

On Aug 1, 4:00 am, Georg Waldgreve <Georg.Waldgr...@gmx-topmail.de>
wrote:

> Am 26.07.2012 17:18, schrieb UC:
>
> > Could someone please review and comment on these:
>
> > The German:

> > "Diese Liste ist gewiss nicht vollständig; ersichtlich ist die Strafe
> > mit Nützlichkeiten aller Art überladen. Um so eher darf man von ihr
> > eine vermeintliche Nützlichkeit in Abzug bringen, die allerdings im
> > populären Bewusstsein als ihre wesentlichste gilt, – der Glaube an die
> > Strafe, der heute aus mehreren Gründen wackelt, findet gerade an ihr
> > immer noch seine kräftigste Stütze."

>
> - - - snip - - -
>
> Well, not being a native English speaker or writer, I nevertheless
> think that this discussion here arose from a problem which sometimes
> can be led back to the incompleteness of the text given to translate.
>

> The given excerpt is part of Nietsche’s “Jenseits von Gut und Böse. Zur
> Genealogie der Moral”, and the quotation is from chapter 4.

>
> Could it be that the text is better understood after reading what is
> written after the incomplete quotation? At least my limited experience
> tells me that it is easier to translate a German text into English if
> the quotation is given in a more complete context. For me the given
> text made more sense after reading the following sentences:
>

> „Die Strafe soll den Werth haben, das Gefühl der Schuld im Schuldigen

> aufzuwecken, man sucht in ihr das eigentliche instrumentum jener

> seelischen Reaktion, welche »schlechtes Gewissen«, »Gewissensbiss«
> genannt wird. Aber damit vergreift man sich selbst für heute noch an
> der Wirklichkeit und der Psychologie: und wie viel mehr für die längste
> Geschichte des Menschen, seine Vorgeschichte! Der ächte Gewissensbiss
> ist gerade unter Verbrechern und Sträflingen etwas äusserst Seltenes,
> die Gefängnisse, die Zuchthäuser sind nicht die Brutstätten, an denen
> diese Species von Nagewurm mit Vorliebe gedeiht: – darin kommen alle
> gewissenhaften Beobachter überein, die in vielen Fällen ein derartiges
> Urtheil ungern genug und wider die eigensten Wünsche abgeben. In's
> Grosse gerechnet, härtet und kältet die Strafe ab; sie concentrirt; sie
> verschärft das Gefühl der Entfremdung; sie stärkt die Widerstandskraft.
> Wenn es vorkommt, dass sie die Energie zerbricht und eine erbärmliche

> Prostration und Selbsterniedrigung zu Wege bringt, so ist ein solches
> Ergebniss sicherlich noch weniger erquicklich als die durchschnittliche

> Wirkung der Strafe: als welche sich durch einen trocknen düsteren Ernst
> charakterisirt.“
>
> Georg Waldgreve

I would have thought what came ***before*** would be more helpful.

[Oliver Cromm]

* UC:

> On Jul 31, 1:40�pm, Oliver Cromm <lispamat...@crommatograph.info>
> wrote:
>> * UC:
>>
>>> I also do not 'buy' the idea that foreign ideas cannot be expressed in
>>> idiomatic English.
>>
>> Maybe not - if an original author expressed them, they might well
>> have come out in idiomatic English.
>
> My principle is that it should be translated as if 'als ob' it were
> written by a native speaker.
>
>> But there is a danger that in a language that is very smooth you
>> won't notice what is original about the ideas.
>
> On the contrary. Is it hard to understand this:
>
> "Mankind owes more to evil men than to good ones"?
>
>> By making the translation smoother than the original, you add that
>> on top of the usual loss that occurs in any translation.
>
> On the contrary. When an expression is NOT idiomatic, it causes the
> mind to halt

But I was arguing that in philosophy (for example), this can be a
good thing.

> and become confused; the flow of thought is interrupted.

... and even this might be, at times, when the reader's current of
thought was drifting away from the author's.

--
The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to
chance.
Robert R. Coveyou

[Oliver Cromm]

* UC:

The second one, overall, but there are sentences I prefer in the
first version, and I don't see any big issues in the first one,
except maybe the last sentence.

The one thing that sounded unidiomatic to me is "in the main" -
this is the same in both, so I assume it is idiomatic, then, after
all.

--
*Hardware* /n./ The parts of a computer that can be kicked

[UC]

On Aug 1, 12:51 pm, Oliver Cromm <lispamat...@crommatograph.info>
wrote:

- Hide quoted text -

Well I am responsible for the first one, and I do definitely think it
has some points in its favour, though overall they are fairly similar.
But it's the little details that make the difference:

'Has had no meaning' is more elegant than 'had no meaning up to now'.
I prefer the verbs 'he did not
know how to justify himself, to explain himself, to affirm himself' to
the nouns in 'he himself could think of no justification or
explanation or affirmation'

The clause: "behind every great human destiny sounded the even louder
refrain ‘in vain!’ " is not euphonious, with 'refrain in vain' being
the culprit.

The last sentence in the second one is not very elegant at all.
'Crying question' is an idiomatic English expression and closer to the
German anyway.

[Oliver Cromm]

* UC:

> On Aug 1, 12:51 pm, Oliver Cromm <lispamat...@crommatograph.info>
> wrote:

>>> [...] Er litt auch sonst, er war in der Hauptsache

>>> ein k r a n k h a f t e s Thier: aber n i c h t das Leiden selbst war
>>> sein Problem, sondern dass die Antwort fehlte für den Schrei der Frage
>>> „w o z u leiden?“
>>

>>> [...] He suffered also in

>>> other ways; he was in the main a diseased animal; his problem was not
>>> suffering itself, though, but the lack of an answer to that crying
>>> question, ‘Why do we suffer?’
>>

>>> [...] Other things made him

>>> suffer too, in the main he was a sickly animal: but suffering itself
>>> was not his problem, instead, the fact that there was no answer to the
>>> question he screamed, ‘Suffering for what?’
>>
>> The second one, overall, but there are sentences I prefer in the
>> first version, and I don't see any big issues in the first one,
>> except maybe the last sentence.

>> [...]
>
> [...]

> The last sentence in the second one is not very elegant at all.
> 'Crying question' is an idiomatic English expression and closer to the
> German anyway.

My problem is rather with the "Why do we suffer?", which seems to
ask for an efficient cause instead of a final cause.

[UC]

On Aug 3, 5:23 pm, Oliver Cromm <lispamat...@crommatograph.info>

I see. Well 'why' can mean either. 'To what end do we suffer?' seems
kind of stiff to my ears.

[UC]

http://www.dict.cc/?s=wozu

[amma...@hotmail.fr]

Le jeudi 26 juillet 2012 17:18:15 UTC+2, UC a écrit :
> Could someone please review and comment on these:
>
>
>
> The German:
>
> "Diese Liste ist gewiss nicht vollständig; ersichtlich ist die Strafe
>
> mit Nützlichkeiten aller Art überladen. Um so eher darf man von ihr
>
> eine vermeintliche Nützlichkeit in Abzug bringen, die allerdings im
>
> populären Bewusstsein als ihre wesentlichste gilt, – der Glaube an die
>
> Strafe, der heute aus mehreren Gründen wackelt, findet gerade an ihr
>
> immer noch seine kräftigste Stütze."
>
>
>

> First
>
> "This list is certainly not complete; it is overdetermined [überladen]
>
> by utilities of all kinds. All the more reason then, for deducting
>
> from it a supposed utility that, to be sure, counts in the popular
>
> consciousness as the most essential one — belief in punishment, which
>
> for several reasons is tottering today, always finds its strongest
>
> support in this"
>
>
>
> Second
>
> "The list is certainly not complete; punishment can clearly be seen to
>
> be richly laden with benefits of all kinds. This provides all the more
>
> justification for us to deduct one supposed benefit that counts as its
>
> most characteristic in popular perception, – faith in punishment,
>
> which is shaky today for several reasons, has its strongest support in
>
> precisely this."
>
>
>
> Third
>
> "This list is by no means complete; it is obvious that punishment is
>
> useful in so many ways, for so many different ends, that we have more
>
> than sufficient justification to disregard what passes, at any rate in
>
> the popular mind, as the purpose for which it is most useful, and
>
> which provides the strongest support for that faith in punishment
>
> which is nowadays, for many reasons, shaken, if not in decline."

http://www.mediafire.com/?j4h58bx2auf19a9

[amma...@hotmail.fr]

[UC]

What is this?

[Oliver Cromm]

* UC:

It certainly can, just like "warum". However, Nietzsche did not
choose the more flexible "warum", he chose the more specific
"wozu".

>'To what end do we suffer?' seems
> kind of stiff to my ears.

Well, I'm sure there are a hundred other possibilities. "What is
the purpose of suffering" seems to be rather common, although it
may sound too religious.

--
"Bother", said the Borg, as they assimilated Pooh.

[UC]

On Aug 6, 5:43 pm, Oliver Cromm <lispamat...@crommatograph.info>

well, 'why do we suffer?' seems good to my ears.

[Joachim Pense]

Am 07.08.2012 16:14, schrieb UC:

>>
>> It certainly can, just like "warum". However, Nietzsche did not
>> choose the more flexible "warum", he chose the more specific
>> "wozu".
>>
>>> 'To what end do we suffer?' seems
>>> kind of stiff to my ears.
>>
>> Well, I'm sure there are a hundred other possibilities. "What is
>> the purpose of suffering" seems to be rather common, although it
>> may sound too religious.
>
>
> well, 'why do we suffer?' seems good to my ears.
>

But that is ambiguous again.

What about "What do we suffer for"?

Joachim

[UC]

Well ending in 'for' sounds a bit off, not Victorian. Too
contemporary, and not best form.

[Joachim Pense]

Am 07.08.2012 18:24, schrieb UC:
> On Aug 7, 12:09 pm, Joachim Pense <s...@pense-mainz.eu> wrote:
>> Am 07.08.2012 16:14, schrieb UC:
>>
>>
>>
>>>> It certainly can, just like "warum". However, Nietzsche did not
>>>> choose the more flexible "warum", he chose the more specific
>>>> "wozu".
>>
>>>>> 'To what end do we suffer?' seems
>>>>> kind of stiff to my ears.
>>
>>>> Well, I'm sure there are a hundred other possibilities. "What is

>>>> the purpose of suffering" seems to be rather common, although it,m

>>>> may sound too religious.
>>
>>> well, 'why do we suffer?' seems good to my ears.
>>
>> But that is ambiguous again.
>>
>> What about "What do we suffer for"?
>>
>> Joachim
>
> Well ending in 'for' sounds a bit off, not Victorian. Too
> contemporary, and not best form.
>

That would speak for "to what end". For sure, "wozu" always denote
finality, while "warum" - like "why" can denote either causality or
finality (or "Erkenntnisgrund" - what is the English word for that?)

Joachim

Joachim

[UC]

not sure what you mean

[UC]

There is 'final cause' which corresponds to Zweckmaessigkeit