Ish or Ik
Rod Hilton
been taking german in school over here in america for a while, and we are
told to pronounce words like 'ich', 'mich', etc, sort of like 'eek' and
'meek' altho with less hard k (more from the throat).
But recently, we have heard Rammstein (a german band) pronounce words
like those like 'ish' and 'mish'. Since my teachers aren't authentic
Germans and the band members of this group are, I was wondering if that
is the correct way. Any explanations?
--
+------------+---------------------------------------+
| Rod Hilton | xavier@(REMOVE-TO-REPLY)voicenet.com |
+------------+---------------------------------------+
"I'm a nobody. Nobody's perfect. Thus, I am perfect"
http://www.voicenet.com/~xavier/index.html
Gabe Ormsby
while a Bavarian will say "ish." (roughly spoken). There's a broad range of
pronunciation across Germany, just as in the US.
In article <MPG.10a7e1136...@netnews.voicenet.com>,
Philip Newton
>
> What you've discovered is variation in dialects: A Berliner will say "eek,"
> while a Bavarian will say "ish." (roughly spoken). There's a broad range of
> pronunciation across Germany, just as in the US.
I'd render the Berliner's pronunciation more like "ick" then "eek"
(or even "icke"). And many people from parts of East German also say
"ish" for "ich".
One note for pronunciation of "soft" ch: many Americans seem to have
problems with this sound, and say e.g. "ick" for "ich". While I don't
believe the "hard" ch as in "lachen" exists in the English language
(except possibly in the word "loch" for a Scottish lake), the "soft"
sound is what I make at the beginning of the words "huge" and "human"
-- i.e., when there's an H followed by a Y sound. Just try to put
that sound at the *end* of a word. Help any?
Cheers,
Philip
Diedrich Ehlerding
>I am trying to settle a small argument between my friend and I. We have
>been taking german in school over here in america for a while, and we are
>told to pronounce words like 'ich', 'mich', etc, sort of like 'eek' and
>'meek' altho with less hard k (more from the throat).
>
>But recently, we have heard Rammstein (a german band) pronounce words
>like those like 'ish' and 'mish'. Since my teachers aren't authentic
>Germans and the band members of this group are, I was wondering if that
>is the correct way. Any explanations?
In some regions of southwest Germany (e.g. Frankfurt) "ich" is
pronounced almost like "ish", but that is not standard (although
probably easier to pronounce for a native English speaker). The standard
pronounciation of "ch" (or better the two standard pronounciations,
since the ch after the vowels "a","o","u" sounds different from the "ch"
after "e", "i", "ä", "ö", "ü") cannot be circumscribed; English simply
doesnt contain these sounds.
HTH, Diedrich
Regards
Joern Richts
> we are told to pronounce words like 'ich', 'mich', etc, sort of like
> 'eek' and 'meek' altho with less hard k (more from the throat).
> But recently, we have heard Rammstein (a german band) pronounce words
> like those like 'ish' and 'mish'.
The standard pronounciation of `ich' is neither `ish' nor `eek' with
the throat-k you described. It is difficult to describe but it sounds
more like `ish' for the inattentive listener. As far as I remember,
Rammstein uses the standard pronounciation but many Germans (and much
more non-native speakers) use `ish'.
Jörn
Dirk Thierbach
: Rod Hilton schrieb:
:>I am trying to settle a small argument between my friend and I. We have
:>been taking german in school over here in america for a while, and we are
:>told to pronounce words like 'ich', 'mich', etc, sort of like 'eek' and
:>'meek' altho with less hard k (more from the throat).
:>
:>But recently, we have heard Rammstein (a german band) pronounce words
:>like those like 'ish' and 'mish'. Since my teachers aren't authentic
:>Germans and the band members of this group are, I was wondering if that
:>is the correct way. Any explanations?
: In some regions of southwest Germany (e.g. Frankfurt) "ich" is
: pronounced almost like "ish", but that is not standard (although
: probably easier to pronounce for a native English speaker). The standard
: pronounciation of "ch" (or better the two standard pronounciations,
: since the ch after the vowels "a","o","u" sounds different from the "ch"
: after "e", "i", "ä", "ö", "ü") cannot be circumscribed; English simply
: doesnt contain these sounds.
Here's an attempt at describing them. After the "dark" vowels ("a",
"o", "u"), 'ch' is pronounced the same way as in scottish 'loch'.
This consonant is formed in the back of your mouth like the 'k', but
without moving the top of your the mouth, and while breathing out air.
If you cannot make this sound, substitute 'k'. It will sound funny to
native speakers, but will be understood.
After the "light" vowels (the others), 'ch' indeed comes close to
'ish'. But it's a different consonant: Try to imagine a crossover
between 'sh' and the 'h' in 'huge'. You might also get there by
saying 'sh' and at the same time moving your tongue a tiny bit back
and making your lips broader, like if you want to say 'ee'. So the
word 'ich' will be good to practice :-)
If you cannot pronounce that, try 'sh' instead. If you use 'k' after a
"light" vowel, you might also be understood, but 'sh' is definitely
better.
Of course you can also listen to Rammstein and try to imitate them.
They pronounce it the correct way, though they 'emphasize' it in this
song to get a bit of an effect.
HTH,
- Dirk
Rod Hilton
I can pronounce the, i think as you describe it, soft ch sound. I'm not
concerned how to do it - I'm just concerned that I pronounce it like my
german teachers but ACTUAL germans (Rammstein) sound a lot more like a
'sh' in english than, what I will call a 'kh' (sort of a mix between ch,
sh, and k).
At the same time, the little tapes and videos that came with the textbook
for our german course all have real Germans saying it more like how the
teachers pronounce it. You can see how I might be extremely confused. I
understand that a lot of this is dialect, but what is the absolute
correct way (if there is one)?
D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff
Rod Hilton <xav...@NOSPAMvoicenet.com> wrote:
>I am trying to settle a small argument between my friend and I. We have
>been taking german in school over here in america for a while, and we are
>told to pronounce words like 'ich', 'mich', etc, sort of like 'eek' and
>'meek' altho with less hard k (more from the throat).
>
>But recently, we have heard Rammstein (a german band) pronounce words
>like those like 'ish' and 'mish'. Since my teachers aren't authentic
>Germans and the band members of this group are, I was wondering if that
>is the correct way. Any explanations?
Neither of those is the correct way. The German "soft ch" sound (called
the 'Ich-Laut' in German) is like a combination of 'h' and 'y'. The
closest resemblance in English is to the sound of 'h' in words like 'Hugh'
and 'huge' where it is followed by a y-sound.
Start by pronouncing 'Hugh'. Give the 'h' more breath than you would
normally. Draw it out and shorten the 'u' part until you drop it entire-
ly. Now practice putting this sound at the end of words, like 'ich',
'mich', 'Pech', etc.
If this doesn't work for you, you're better off substituting 'sh' than
'k'. 'isch' for 'ich' is common in parts of Germany, particularly the
Rhineland. 'ik' for 'ich' is Low German dialect and would be less ac-
ceptable for most Germans.
--
Daniel "Da" von Brighoff /\ Dilettanten
(de...@midway.uchicago.edu) /__\ erhebt Euch
/____\ gegen die Kunst!
Thorsten Müller
>
> At the same time, the little tapes and videos that came with the textbook
> for our german course all have real Germans saying it more like how the
> teachers pronounce it. You can see how I might be extremely confused. I
> understand that a lot of this is dialect, but what is the absolute
> correct way (if there is one)?
Apart from all the dialects and regional differences, the "absolute correct"
way to pronounce it is the high (standard) German way.
I can record it and send it as a .WAV file if you like. :-)
I would describe it as follows: first, move the tongue between your teeth
(your teeth need to be open slightly, this gives you an idea about how much
you need to open them). Your lips should be in the position that you need to
pronounce an "ee" sound; try to exaggerate this lip movement a little, it will
make it easier to get the idea right. Then, pull your tongue back and move the
tip of your tongue behind your lower teeth. For a start, try touching the
teeth w/ your tongue, the sound you get will be quite similar to what you
want, but for the 'absolute correct' version the tongue has to be slightly
behind the lower teeth, leaving a tiny gap. If you try to pronounce it, you
should get a hissing sound similar to the "h" in "huge", but stronger. You may
need to lower the middle of your tongue by a slight amount, it should not
touch your palate.
At least when I do it this way, it works.
Cheers,
Thorsten
Denis Tishchenko
JR> xav...@NOSPAMvoicenet.com (Rod Hilton) writes:
JR>
JR> The standard pronounciation of `ich' is neither `ish' nor `eek' with
JR> the throat-k you described. It is difficult to describe but it sounds
JR> more like `ish' for the inattentive listener.
For me it sounds more like "ij" :-) (j - jot, like the first vowel
in 'yankee')
--
ICQ: 22076344
D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff
Rod Hilton <xav...@NOSPAMvoicenet.com> wrote:
>(reply to all who posted replies, nobody in particular)
>
>I can pronounce the, i think as you describe it, soft ch sound. I'm not
>concerned how to do it - I'm just concerned that I pronounce it like my
>german teachers but ACTUAL germans (Rammstein) sound a lot more like a
>'sh' in english than, what I will call a 'kh' (sort of a mix between ch,
>sh, and k).
>
>for our german course all have real Germans saying it more like how the
>teachers pronounce it. You can see how I might be extremely confused. I
>understand that a lot of this is dialect, but what is the absolute
>correct way (if there is one)?
It seems like you're hearing distinctions I can't. I've encountred three
main pronunciational variants of the <ch> in 'ich':
(1) Ich-Laut. (The standard. This should be what you're hearing on tapes
and videos and what your teachers are teaching you. This is the sound
several of us have been trying to describe for you.)
(2) sch. (Almost exactly like English <sh>. Especially common in the
Rhineland.)
(3) Ach-Laut. (This is the "hard ch" sound, like in English 'chutzpah'
[Ger. 'Chuzpe'] or 'loch', German 'machen' and 'hoch'. In some parts of
Germany, particularly the southwest, there is no Ich-Laut and the Ach-Laut
is used for all ch's.)
Other things happen in dialect (e.g. Berliner 'ik', "soft ch" is dropped
entirely, etc.), but you shouldn't be hearing any of that unless you're
listening to bands like Bap and EAV. Rammstein's pronunciation seems very
standard to me.
Helmut Richter
>It seems like you're hearing distinctions I can't. I've encountred three
>main pronunciational variants of the <ch> in 'ich':
>(1) Ich-Laut. (The standard. [...]
>(2) sch [...]
>(3) Ach-Laut [...]
>Other things happen in dialect (e.g. Berliner 'ik', "soft ch" is dropped
>entirely, etc.), but you shouldn't be hearing any of that unless you're [...]
I fail to see the difference between a dialect belonging to group (2)
(Rhineland, Palatinate, Saxony) or group (3) (Switzerland) versus a
dialect where "other things happen". Everything other than (1) is
clearly non-standard and will everywhere be regarded as such. That
(2) may be harder to distinguish from (1) over a noisy phone line may
make it a better substitute for those that are unable to pronounce (1)
but that does not make it standard.
Or is it a reminiscence to our past chancellor who came from
Palatinate and thus had some difficulties with the soft <ch>?
This feature of his was sometimes ridiculed - although more so his
attempts to hyper-correct ("Gechichte").
Helmut Richter
Luke
>
> Diedrich Ehlerding <Diedrich....@t-online.de> wrote:
> : Rod Hilton schrieb:
>
> :>been taking german in school over here in america for a while, and we are
> :>told to pronounce words like 'ich', 'mich', etc, sort of like 'eek' and
> :>'meek' altho with less hard k (more from the throat).
> :>
> :>But recently, we have heard Rammstein (a german band) pronounce words
> :>like those like 'ish' and 'mish'. Since my teachers aren't authentic
> :>Germans and the band members of this group are, I was wondering if that
> :>is the correct way. Any explanations?
>
> : pronounced almost like "ish", but that is not standard (although
> : probably easier to pronounce for a native English speaker). The standard
> : pronounciation of "ch" (or better the two standard pronounciations,
> : since the ch after the vowels "a","o","u" sounds different from the "ch"
> : after "e", "i", "ä", "ö", "ü") cannot be circumscribed; English simply
> : doesnt contain these sounds.
>
> Here's an attempt at describing them. After the "dark" vowels ("a",
> "o", "u"), 'ch' is pronounced the same way as in scottish 'loch'.
> This consonant is formed in the back of your mouth like the 'k', but
> without moving the top of your the mouth, and while breathing out air.
> If you cannot make this sound, substitute 'k'. It will sound funny to
> native speakers, but will be understood.
You have to remember, using the "loch" example gets you nowhere with
americans, who all say loch ness as "lock ness."
> After the "light" vowels (the others), 'ch' indeed comes close to
> 'ish'. But it's a different consonant: Try to imagine a crossover
> between 'sh' and the 'h' in 'huge'. You might also get there by
> saying 'sh' and at the same time moving your tongue a tiny bit back
> and making your lips broader, like if you want to say 'ee'. So the
> word 'ich' will be good to practice :-)
>
> If you cannot pronounce that, try 'sh' instead. If you use 'k' after a
> "light" vowel, you might also be understood, but 'sh' is definitely
> better.
>
> Of course you can also listen to Rammstein and try to imitate them.
> They pronounce it the correct way, though they 'emphasize' it in this
> song to get a bit of an effect.
>
> HTH,
>
> - Dirk
--
Lass, o Welt, o lass mich sein!
Locket nicht mit Liebesgaben!
Lass dies Herz alleine haben
seine Wonne, seine Pein.
Vienne la nuit, sonne l'heure
les jours s'en vont je demeure
yuku kawa no nagare wa taezu shite, shikamo, moto no mizu ni arazu.
SKA++81+/LOCnaNE5/EDUmu=10.ps-1/WRK4+0.9/REL++#$/POL-???/CAIcaf5=.nic3=.alc1=
SCN+97.97.7+.4=/STY-plb6xxx1/MUS3C25\7.T5\2
MIX-.reg6.cla5.swg3/SHO13.4/MED---xxx/BND1RWkey7/04-24-98
Christian Born, Homberg
>believe the "hard" ch as in "lachen" exists in the English language
>(except possibly in the word "loch" for a Scottish lake), the "soft"
>sound is what I make at the beginning of the words "huge" and "human"
>-- i.e., when there's an H followed by a Y sound. Just try to put
>that sound at the *end* of a word. Help any?
>
>Cheers,
>Philip
He`s right!!!
christian from germany
D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff
Helmut Richter <Helmut....@lrz-muenchen.de> wrote:
>de...@midway.uchicago.edu (D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff) writes:
>
>>It seems like you're hearing distinctions I can't. I've encountred three
>>main pronunciational variants of the <ch> in 'ich':
>
>>(1) Ich-Laut. (The standard. [...]
>>(2) sch [...]
>>(3) Ach-Laut [...]
>
>>Other things happen in dialect (e.g. Berliner 'ik', "soft ch" is dropped
>>entirely, etc.), but you shouldn't be hearing any of that unless you're [...]
>
>I fail to see the difference between a dialect belonging to group (2)
>(Rhineland, Palatinate, Saxony) or group (3) (Switzerland) versus a
>dialect where "other things happen". Everything other than (1) is
>clearly non-standard and will everywhere be regarded as such. That
>(2) may be harder to distinguish from (1) over a noisy phone line may
>make it a better substitute for those that are unable to pronounce (1)
>but that does not make it standard.
The difference is between "dialect" and "local accent". Like the differ-
ence between various local dialects, it's not clear-cut by any means:
There's actually a whole range of speech varieties from purest Hochdeutsch
to extreme local dialect.
The three variations I listed are all ones I've heard from Germans *when
speaking Hochdeutsch*. (Better said, what they personally think of as
Hochdeutsch; people from outside their area might mistake it for dialect,
but upon hearing true broad dialect they'll soon recognise their error.)
I think that those Berliners who still use "ik" clearly recognise that
this is a dialectal affectation, and not accented Hochdeutsch. This is
a different case from the Rhinelander who confuses "ch" and "sch" or the
Alemanner who replaces Ich-Laut with Ach-Laut. (The latter, when speak-
ing dialect, would leave out most Ich-Laute.)
>Or is it a reminiscence to our past chancellor who came from
>Palatinate and thus had some difficulties with the soft <ch>?
>This feature of his was sometimes ridiculed - although more so his
>attempts to hyper-correct ("Gechichte").
That's a good example. I think also of my first encountres with Swiss-
Germans on their home territory. I was very proud of finally learning to
understand their "local dialect" until realising that's not what they were
speaking at all, rather heavily-accented Hochdeutsch.
Edward Pennington ABSON
r n l ) ch is soft After a o or u it hardt On a recent visit to Germany I
found this usage to be correct. The problem is what happens when a o or u
has an umlaut. Ik it seems then becomes Ich. ? am I correct. APE
Wolfgang Schwanke <wo...@berlin.snafu.de> wrote in article
<71vut2$fmf$1...@unlisys.unlisys.net>...
> xav...@NOSPAMvoicenet.com (Rod Hilton) writes:
>
> >I am trying to settle a small argument between my friend and I. We have
> >been taking german in school over here in america for a while, and we
are
> >told to pronounce words like 'ich', 'mich', etc, sort of like 'eek' and
> >'meek' altho with less hard k (more from the throat).
>
> >But recently, we have heard Rammstein (a german band) pronounce words
> >like those like 'ish' and 'mish'.
>
> Your teacher probably couldn't pronounce it properly, so he told you
> an approximation. The proper sound of '-ich' is neither "ik" nor "ish",
> but a third one somewhat in between. It doesn't occur in English, so
> it's impossible to write it down using pseudo-English spelling.
>
> "Ik" and "ish" do occur in different dialects though, but you might
> want to avoid them unless if you're trying to mimick certain regional
> forms of speech anyway.
>
> Regards
>
> --
> wo...@techno.de + wo...@snafu.de + http://www.snafu.de/~wolfi/ +
IRC:wolfi
>
> Las radiaciones tostan y matizan de
azul
>
Ernest Blaschke
Edward Pennington ABSON wrote in message
<01be0b36$9124cc40$913ea8c2@default>...
>My tutor Namely BBC Deutsch Direct P.289 informs me that afteri i or e (or
>r n l ) ch is soft After a o or u it hardt On a recent visit to Germany I
>found this usage to be correct. The problem is what happens when a o or u
>has an umlaut. Ik it seems then becomes Ich. ? am I correct. APE
"Nacht, Pech, nicht,noch,suchen,laecheln,moechten,fuerchten"
all seem to have the same ch sound; just like in "ich", a guttural "ch" not
used in English.
(....at least as pronounced in southern Germany and Austria).
Ernest.
Helmut Richter
>Edward Pennington ABSON wrote in message
><01be0b36$9124cc40$913ea8c2@default>...
>>My tutor Namely BBC Deutsch Direct P.289 informs me that afteri i or e (or
>>r n l ) ch is soft After a o or u it hardt On a recent visit to Germany I
>>found this usage to be correct. The problem is what happens when a o or u
>>has an umlaut. Ik it seems then becomes Ich. ? am I correct. APE
Umlauts and consonants (e.g. "welche") behave like "e" and "i".
>"Nacht, Pech, nicht,noch,suchen,laecheln,moechten,fuerchten"
>all seem to have the same ch sound; just like in "ich", a guttural "ch" not
>used in English.
No, these are two clearly distinct fricative sounds, both not used in
English.
>(....at least as pronounced in southern Germany and Austria).
in Switzerland and Vorarlberg and perhaps in some other parts of Austria
(Tyrol?) but hardly anywhere in Southern Germany
Helmut Richter
Horst Prillinger
ABSON" <e.a...@virgin.net> wrote:
>The problem is what happens when a o or u
>has an umlaut
ü /y/ is a rounded /i/, so it behaves like /i/
ö /ø/ is a rounded /e/, so it behaves like /e/
ä /æ/ is sort of half-way between /a/ and /e/, so it would depend on the
local dialect.
-H.P.
--
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ICQ #22494998
Diedrich Ehlerding
>
>"Nacht, Pech, nicht,noch,suchen,laecheln,moechten,fuerchten"
>all seem to have the same ch sound; just like in "ich", a guttural "ch" not
>used in English.
>(....at least as pronounced in southern Germany and Austria).
No. (The sentence in Parentheses _may_ hold for some regions or dialects
in Austria (?) and/or Switzerland, but I am not sure if they really
pronounce all "ch"s identically there.) Elsewhere, and for the vast
majority of native German speakers, the "ch" sound in "Nacht", "noch"
and "suchen" is clearly distinct from the sound in your other examples.
Diedrich
D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff
Horst Prillinger <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
>In article <01be0b36$9124cc40$913ea8c2@default>, "Edward Pennington
>ABSON" <e.a...@virgin.net> wrote:
>
>>The problem is what happens when a o or u
>>has an umlaut
>
>ü /y/ is a rounded /i/, so it behaves like /i/
>ö /ø/ is a rounded /e/, so it behaves like /e/
>ä /æ/ is sort of half-way between /a/ and /e/, so it would depend on the
>local dialect.
Where are you from? The only place I know of where the last statement
holds true is Switzerland. Elsewhere in the German Sprachraum, a-umlaut
is /E/, not /@/.
Ernest Blaschke
Manfred Pegam wrote in message <3645f171...@nntp.ruhr.de>...
>On Sun, 8 Nov 1998 13:28:22 -0500, "Ernest Blaschke"
><ebla...@sprint.ca> wrote:
>
>>"Nacht, Pech, nicht,noch,suchen,laecheln,moechten,fuerchten"
>>all seem to have the same ch sound; just like in "ich", a guttural "ch" not
>>used in English.
>1 Nacht, noch, suchen,
>2 like in 'ich': Pech, nicht, laecheln, moechten, fuerchten.
>
>
> Manfred
My apologies to you and others here who corrected me. I carefully pronounced
the words again and noticed that the "ch" in "Nacht","noch," und "suchen"
originates "further down in the throat" than in "Pech" and "nicht". But
"fuerchten" does seem to be a little closer to "noch", isn't it?
Sorry, I never learnt the intricacies of the German language, simply grew up
with it.
Ernest.
Diedrich Ehlerding
> I carefully pronounced
>the words again and noticed that the "ch" in "Nacht","noch," und "suchen"
>originates "further down in the throat" than in "Pech" and "nicht". But
>"fuerchten" does seem to be a little closer to "noch", isn't it?
Again this depends on the local dialect. There are regions in southern
Germany where people pronounce "fuerchten" with a ch as in "Nacht"; I
myself use to pronounce it as in "ich", and I suppose that I are with
the vast majority.
Diedrich
Brandsma
Diedrich Ehlerding wrote:
I suppose from a linguistic point of view one could say that the two fricative
guttural sounds are the same phoneme, with two different (in fact probably
more, but that would be getting subtle) realisations, depending on the
preceding (and following?) vowel.
In (official) Dutch there are two guttural fricative sounds, one voiced and
one voiceless, with minimal pairs (though rare ones) (loochen / logen, e.g.).
I do not think that German has minimal pairs between the ach-laut and the
ich-laut. So in a way Blaschke's first reaction ("they are the same") would
be correct in an abstract sense..
Henno Brandsma
D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff
Brandsma <bran...@twi.tudelft.nl> wrote:
>
>
>Diedrich Ehlerding wrote:
>
>> Ernest Blaschke schrieb:
>>
>> > I carefully pronounced
>> >the words again and noticed that the "ch" in "Nacht","noch," und "suchen"
>> >originates "further down in the throat" than in "Pech" and "nicht". But
>> >"fuerchten" does seem to be a little closer to "noch", isn't it?
>>
>> Again this depends on the local dialect. There are regions in southern
>> Germany where people pronounce "fuerchten" with a ch as in "Nacht"; I
>> myself use to pronounce it as in "ich", and I suppose that I are with
>> the vast majority.
>>
>> Diedrich
>
>I suppose from a linguistic point of view one could say that the two fricative
>guttural sounds are the same phoneme, with two different (in fact probably
>more, but that would be getting subtle) realisations, depending on the
>preceding (and following?) vowel.
It's often analysed that way, though there are complications. Namely, the
diminutive suffix -chen is always pronounced with the Ich-Laut, regardless
of what preceeds it. In dialects and regional varietes where this suffix
does not uniformly cause umlaut (e.g. the pronunciation of one of my East
Prussian linguistics professors), this leads to constrasts like 'Schuh-
chen' /'Su:Cn/ vs. 'suchen' ['zu:xn].
>In (official) Dutch there are two guttural fricative sounds, one voiced and
>one voiceless, with minimal pairs (though rare ones) (loochen / logen, e.g.).
>I do not think that German has minimal pairs between the ach-laut and the
>ich-laut. So in a way Blaschke's first reaction ("they are the same") would
>be correct in an abstract sense..
--
D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff
D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff <de...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>In article <nospam-0911...@tk21201764123.teleweb.at>,
>Horst Prillinger <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>In article <01be0b36$9124cc40$913ea8c2@default>, "Edward Pennington
>>ABSON" <e.a...@virgin.net> wrote:
>>
>>>The problem is what happens when a o or u
>>>has an umlaut
>>
>>ü /y/ is a rounded /i/, so it behaves like /i/
>>ö /ø/ is a rounded /e/, so it behaves like /e/
>>ä /æ/ is sort of half-way between /a/ and /e/, so it would depend on the
>>local dialect.
>
>Where are you from? The only place I know of where the last statement
>holds true is Switzerland. Elsewhere in the German Sprachraum, a-umlaut
>is /E/, not /@/.
Thanks to Mr. Thierbach for pointing out my mistaken use of /@/ here. In
IPA for ASCII, that character represents the schwa; what I want is the a-e
ligature such as Mr. Prillinger has typed. In IPA for ASCII, this is re-
presented by /%/.
There is a difference in vowel height between /E/ and /%/, the latter be-
ing lower (and often a bit more central). The two vowels contrast in most
English and Swiss-German dialects, but not in most German dialects and
certainly not in Standard German. That's why I suspect Mr. Prillinger of
being a Swiss-German speaker.
Andrew Casson-du Mont
> I do not think that German has minimal pairs between the ach-laut and the
> ich-laut.
Try this:
Kuchen (cake) : Kuhchen (little cow)
Andrew Casson-du Mont
-----
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Manuel Fuchs
> > ich-laut.
>
> Try this:
>
> Kuchen (cake) : Kuhchen (little cow)
I'd rather say 'Kühchen' (with u-Umlaut and the ich-Sound),
or even 'Kälbchen'... Anyway, the minimal pair (Kuchen vs.
Kuhchen) does not exist in my vocabulary.
Gruß, Fux
Rober Strickland
Bonn?") I've been given to understand that ich is pronuounced ish in the
Bonner (Rheinische) Dialekt. I don't know where the members of Rammstein are
from (I'm gonna guess Berlin) but that might explain it. Especially since
most Berliners I've met say it more like ick.
Rod Hilton wrote in message ...
>I am trying to settle a small argument between my friend and I. We have
>been taking german in school over here in america for a while, and we are
>told to pronounce words like 'ich', 'mich', etc, sort of like 'eek' and
>'meek' altho with less hard k (more from the throat).
>
>But recently, we have heard Rammstein (a german band) pronounce words
>like those like 'ish' and 'mish'. Since my teachers aren't authentic
>Germans and the band members of this group are, I was wondering if that
>is the correct way. Any explanations?
Thorsten Müller
> My tutor Namely BBC Deutsch Direct P.289 informs me that afteri i or e (or
> r n l ) ch is soft After a o or u it hardt On a recent visit to Germany I
> found this usage to be correct. The problem is what happens when a o or u
> has an umlaut. Ik it seems then becomes Ich. ? am I correct. APE
It's quite logical when you realise that the pronunciation of the umlaut
characters is actually not very close to the pronunciation of their non-umlaut
equivalents. You should think of the umlaut sounds as completely different
vowels. Keeping this in mind, you will notice that the sound of...
...'u umlaut' is closer to 'i' than to 'u'
...'a/o umlaut' is closer to 'e' than to 'a' and 'o'
(the German vowels, not English 'i' and 'e'!)
Thus, if a 'ch' is preceded by an umlaut, it behaves as if it were preceded by
'e' or 'i', and the pronunciation is soft. Examples:
- mächtig (powerful)
- Töchter (pl. of daughter)
- flüchten (to flee, escape)
Understanding these vowel relationships can be helpful for solving some of the
mysteries in German pronunciation, in case it's difficult for you to fully
comprehend them take a look at German poems. You will notice that to a German
ear, u umlaut rhymes perfectly with i, just as a/o umlaut rhymes with an e
sound. But you won't find any rhymes with a/o/u and a/o/u umlaut.
Greetings,
Thorsten
M Contraveos
> >like those like 'ish' and 'mish'. Since my teachers aren't authentic
> >Germans and the band members of this group are, I was wondering if that
> >is the correct way. Any explanations?
Rammstein come from two cities, basically: one of which is Berlin, and the
other city's name escapes me right now. Note that the only Rammstein member
we've heard sing is Till, and there is a chance that he is from this other
city, which may have more of a western-central-Germany-type dialect.
(NOTE: This is speculation...) A feature of the common dialect in Berlin
is to pronounce the "ch" following short vowels more like "ik" than "ish."
Notice he also uses the linguar trill for his "r"s instead of the uvular,
which is more common in Berlin and the Bavarian regions. I'll try to learn
more about the dialect of his native city, and perhaps about his education;
perhaps that may also be a factor.
Thorsten Müller
> Notice he also uses the linguar trill for his "r"s instead of the uvular,
> which is more common in Berlin and the Bavarian regions.
But I believe this is just his special style of 'singing'. The linguar trill
he uses sounds pretty exaggerated to me, and it's well possible that that's
not the way he usually talks.
Greetings,
Thorsten
D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff
And it's worth keeping in mind that it would hardly be a major personal
idiosyncracy to use a lingual trill when singing but not when speaking.
This is common feature of singing pronunciation even in English.
M Contraveos
Yes, it makes sense that the singer would enunciate his vowels and hit the
trills harder for musical purposes; I have, however, heard Germans use
"ish" and the lingually-trilled "r" exenstively together, but not on
*every* 'r.' They sort of "round off" the r by pronouncing something like
the British English "r."
> And it's worth keeping in mind that it would hardly be a major personal
> idiosyncracy to use a lingual trill when singing but not when speaking.
> This is common feature of singing pronunciation even in English.
You're probably right; that may exist in German, but I can't think of a
single example of using any trill in singing or speaking (American)
English, or even perhaps British English.
MC
D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff
M Contraveos <m-cont...@uchicago.edu> wrote:
>
>Yes, it makes sense that the singer would enunciate his vowels and hit the
>trills harder for musical purposes; I have, however, heard Germans use
>"ish" and the lingually-trilled "r" exenstively together, but not on
>*every* 'r.' They sort of "round off" the r by pronouncing something like
>the British English "r."
Do you mean trilled between vowels within a word, "rounded off" otherwise?
>> And it's worth keeping in mind that it would hardly be a major personal
>> idiosyncracy to use a lingual trill when singing but not when speaking.
>> This is common feature of singing pronunciation even in English.
>
>You're probably right; that may exist in German, but I can't think of a
>single example of using any trill in singing or speaking (American)
>English, or even perhaps British English.
It's more common in formal singing. It sounds rather affected from a
popstar, particularly an American one.
Andy
>
>Yes, it makes sense that the singer would enunciate his vowels and hit the
>trills harder for musical purposes; I have, however, heard Germans use
>"ish" and the lingually-trilled "r" exenstively together, but not on
>*every* 'r.' They sort of "round off" the r by pronouncing something like
>the British English "r."
>
Yes, you can always tell a Scotsman by the way he rolls his "r"s.
--
Andy
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