English equivalent for German "spießig"?
Klaas Bähre
I don't know where exactly to ask this question, so I'm cross-posting it
- please bear with me.
Does anybody happen to know an English equivalent for the German
adjective "spießig"?
It approximately means:
- bourgeois (but without a sociological connotation)
- narrow-minded (but referring not exclusively to a person's intellectual
capabilities, but to his whole mindset and mentality)
My small Langenscheidt has "Philistine" and "humdrum", but these words
don't seem to be so very common in English, while "spießig" in German is
one of the most popular invectives. I'm using it at least three times
every day, and now I want to use it in English as well.
Thanks in advance!
Klaas
______ _____ ____ ___ __ _
Klaas Bähre
Hannover - Deutschland
http://kiss.to/klaas
ICQ 63662528
anker...@my-deja.com
Klaas Bähre <jan....@gmx.net> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I don't know where exactly to ask this question, so I'm cross-posting
it
> - please bear with me.
>
> Does anybody happen to know an English equivalent for the German
> adjective "spießig"?
>
> It approximately means:
>
> - bourgeois (but without a sociological connotation)
middle-class. Perhaps 'common' in a societal sense.
GFH
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
SchlossGoist
news:MPG.1478c0965...@news.t-online.de...
> Hello,
>
> I don't know where exactly to ask this question, so I'm cross-posting it
> - please bear with me.
>
> Does anybody happen to know an English equivalent for the German
> adjective "spießig"?
>
> It approximately means:
>
> - bourgeois (but without a sociological connotation)
>
> capabilities, but to his whole mindset and mentality)
>
> My small Langenscheidt has "Philistine" and "humdrum", but these words
> don't seem to be so very common in English, while "spießig" in German is
> one of the most popular invectives. I'm using it at least three times
> every day, and now I want to use it in English as well.
>
> Thanks in advance!
-------------------------
Hi Klaas:
How about "plebeian"?
Prosit:
Ed
--
The Viticulture FAQ & Glossary - http://www.itsmysite.com/vitfaq
"I like on the table, when we're speaking,
The light of a bottle of intelligent wine."
-Pablo Neruda
@span.ch Michel JACOT-DESCOMBES
Viel Glück
Michel
Nick Worley
I've never known how to translate spießig since even though there are
English words that sort of convey it's meaning, they often sound like an
explanation and aren't really the sort of terms English speakers would
actually use in real life.
For example, my Oxford Duden gives:
eine spießig eingerichtete Wohnung: an apartment furnished in a typically
petit bourgeois style,
which doesn't exactly roll off the tongue and isn't something you're likely
to hear. As I say it's more of an explanation and not a very useful one at
that, since I'm not sure I really know what petit bourgeois means. I've
just looked it up in my Oxford dictionary and it says:
petit bourgeois: a member of the lower middle classes; (derogatory) a person
judged to have conventional or conservative attitudes, conventional. OK so
now I know what the term means but I don't think I have ever heard anyone
use the term "petit bourgeois" (well I might have once, late at night on
BBC2, but the term's not exactly widespread - it's an intellectual term that
probably isn't understood by millions of English speakers and certainly
isn't used 4 times a day like you say you use spießig).
So far spießig appears to mean: conservative, reactionary, narrow-minded,
conventional, petit bourgeois (the first 4 terms are quite common, but the
last term, depending on who you're talking to, might get you a few
bewildered looks)
Oddly enough, though, the word "bourgeois" on its own is more readily
understood.
My Oxford dictionary gives:
1. the bourgeois classes, not the nobility middle-class, property-owning,
propertied.
2. bourgeois values: materialistic, capitalistic, non-Communist,
money-oriented.
3. bourgeois way of life: conventional, ordinary, uncultured, philistine,
uncreative, unimaginative.
After a full-text search Oxford Duden found the following for spießig:
spießig (abwertend)
1. Adj. [petit] bourgeois; spießige Kleinbürgerlichkeit: petit bourgeois
narrow-mindedness.
2. adv. <think, behave, etc.> in a [petit] bourgeois way; eine spießig
eingerichtete Wohnung a flat (Brit.) or (Amer.) apartment furnished in a
typically petit bourgeois style
narrow (i.e. narrow-minded, intolerant)
square (an old-fashioned word meaning that someone is unfashionable)
stick-in-the-mud (old-fashioned word meaning that someone is unprogressive)
stuffy (prim and proper)
suburban (derogatory) = limited in outlook
Spießbürgertum (abwertend)
a) [petit] bourgeois existence; (spießiges Wesen) [petit] bourgeois
conformism;
b) (die Spießbürger) [petite] bourgeoisie
Spießigkeit (abwertend)
[petit] bourgeois narrow-mindedness
(einer Wohnungseinrichtung) [petit] bourgeois style
spießig/reaktionär denken: have a bourgeois/reactionary mind or
bourgeois/reactionary views
biedermännisch is also listed:
a) (veralt.) stolidly upright;
b) (spießig) stuffily correct; petty bourgeois
After all that research, what immediately springs to mind is the BBC TV
series "Keeping Up Appearances" about a lady who lives in the middle-class
suburbs. Personally I never found it very funny (it was meant to be a
comdey, but I don't remember laughing once so I gave up after a couple of
episodes), but she seems to fit the definition of spießig. To her,
appearances are everything. I presume that her background is working class
which is why she has so much to prove. Everything she says and does is to
prove how well she has done for herself and to prove that she has arrived in
the middle-class world. It's all tied up with the British concept of
"Keeping Up With The Joneses" - Jones is a common surname in the UK, so if
your neighbours The Jones (or Joneses) buy a satellite dish, you have to buy
one too, you don't want to be outdone by them. If their dish can receive 50
channels, then you get one that can receive 100 & you make sure they know
about it. If they get a 2 litre car, you get a 3 litre car, if they get a
Volvo, you get a Mercedes, etc, etc... Anyway, getting back to Keeping Up
Appearances, this lady's name is the very common Mrs Bucket. But because
she wants to sound important she pronounces "Bucket" as if it was written
"Bouquet" and calls herself Mrs Bouquet when being introduced to people.
Actually, that was the only thing that used to make me laugh (it was a bit
of a one-idea comedy series if the truth be told). But Mrs Bucket certainly
fitted the definition of spießig: conservative, reactionary, narrow-minded,
conventional, petit bourgeois. She was also very prim and proper, dressed
in a very prim way and her house was always immaculate.
Klaas, let me know if this was any help & can you give a few sentences in
German where you use the word spießig.
You say you use the word a lot, so it'd give me a better idea of how to
translate it if I could see it in context.
Bye for now
Nick
--
Newsgroups: my e-mail address doesn't contain: TWINKLETOES
Klaas Bähre <jan....@gmx.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.1478c0965...@news.t-online.de...
> Hello,
>
> I don't know where exactly to ask this question, so I'm cross-posting it
> - please bear with me.
>
> Does anybody happen to know an English equivalent for the German
> adjective "spießig"?
>
> It approximately means:
>
> - bourgeois (but without a sociological connotation)
>
> - narrow-minded (but referring not exclusively to a person's intellectual
> capabilities, but to his whole mindset and mentality)
>
> My small Langenscheidt has "Philistine" and "humdrum", but these words
> don't seem to be so very common in English, while "spießig" in German is
> one of the most popular invectives. I'm using it at least three times
> every day, and now I want to use it in English as well.
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
Steven
>
> Klaas Bähre <jan....@gmx.net> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1478c0965...@news.t-online.de...
> > Hello,
> >
> > I don't know where exactly to ask this question, so I'm cross-posting it
> > - please bear with me.
> >
> > Does anybody happen to know an English equivalent for the German
> > adjective "spießig"?
> >
> > It approximately means:
> >
> > - bourgeois (but without a sociological connotation)
> >
> > - narrow-minded (but referring not exclusively to a person's intellectual
> > capabilities, but to his whole mindset and mentality)
> >
> > My small Langenscheidt has "Philistine" and "humdrum", but these words
> > don't seem to be so very common in English, while "spießig" in German is
> > one of the most popular invectives. I'm using it at least three times
> > every day, and now I want to use it in English as well.
> >
> > Thanks in advance!
>
>
> Hi Klaas:
>
> How about "plebeian"?
"Smug" maybe?
Andy
wor...@24-7freecall.net> wrote
[]
>For example, my Oxford Duden gives:
>eine spießig eingerichtete Wohnung: an apartment furnished in a typically
>petit bourgeois style,
>which doesn't exactly roll off the tongue and isn't something you're likely
>to hear. As I say it's more of an explanation and not a very useful one at
>that, since I'm not sure I really know what petit bourgeois means. I've
>just looked it up in my Oxford dictionary and it says:
>petit bourgeois: a member of the lower middle classes; (derogatory) a person
>judged to have conventional or conservative attitudes, conventional. OK so
>now I know what the term means but I don't think I have ever heard anyone
>use the term "petit bourgeois" (well I might have once, late at night on
>BBC2, but the term's not exactly widespread - it's an intellectual term that
>probably isn't understood by millions of English speakers and certainly
>isn't used 4 times a day like you say you use spießig).
>
It brings to my mind a picture of a clerk in a railway ticket office who
smiles happily as he tells you that your train has been cancelled and
your special ticket is invalid on any other train.
--
Andy
For Austrian philately <URL: http://www.kitzbuhel.demon.co.uk/austamps/>
For Lupus <URL: http://www.kitzbuhel.demon.co.uk/lupus/>
For my other interests <URL: http://www.kitzbuhel.demon.co.uk/>
João Luiz
> just looked it up in my Oxford dictionary and it says:
> petit bourgeois: a member of the lower middle classes; (derogatory) a person
> judged to have conventional or conservative attitudes, conventional. OK so
> now I know what the term means but I don't think I have ever heard anyone
> use the term "petit bourgeois" (well I might have once, late at night on
"Pequeno burguês" is largely used in Portuguese. It means more
or less the people with limited horizons, like the ones for
whom "literature" means reading a book from Sydney Sheldon.
But the way I understand spießig in German (and here I would
like Germans to confirm or correct it) there is in addition
to this petit-bourgeoism a "show-off component".
I would use as a definition for spießig an expression my
grandfather used to say, that translates more or less to:
"these people who eat maize porridge and burp lobster."
JL
Andy Averill
"Klaas Bähre" <jan....@gmx.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.1478c0965...@news.t-online.de...
> Hello,
>
> I don't know where exactly to ask this question, so I'm cross-posting it
> - please bear with me.
>
> Does anybody happen to know an English equivalent for the German
> adjective "spießig"?
>
> It approximately means:
>
> - bourgeois (but without a sociological connotation)
>
> - narrow-minded (but referring not exclusively to a person's intellectual
> capabilities, but to his whole mindset and mentality)
>
> My small Langenscheidt has "Philistine" and "humdrum", but these words
> don't seem to be so very common in English, while "spießig" in German is
> one of the most popular invectives. I'm using it at least three times
> every day, and now I want to use it in English as well.
>
> Thanks in advance!
American?
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Joseph C Fineman
>Does anybody happen to know an English equivalent for the German
>adjective "spießig"?
>It approximately means:[...]
On the basis of your information and that of some other posts on this
thread, I would say that in educated company "philistine" would do --
but, as noted elsewhere, not everyone knows the word in that sense.
50 years ago, in the U.S., the slang word "square" would have been
right in many circles, but I suppose it is obsolete by now.
If you want a word that everybody has heard, I suppose "stodgy" comes
pretty close.
--- Joe Fineman j...@world.std.com
||: The vice of politicians and business executives is to judge :||
||: everything by one number. :||
Richard Fontana
> Klaas Bähre <jan....@gmx.net> writes:
>
> >Does anybody happen to know an English equivalent for the German
> >adjective "spießig"?
>
> >It approximately means:[...]
>
> On the basis of your information and that of some other posts on this
> thread, I would say that in educated company "philistine" would do --
> but, as noted elsewhere, not everyone knows the word in that sense.
>
> 50 years ago, in the U.S., the slang word "square" would have been
> right in many circles, but I suppose it is obsolete by now.
I thought square meant "unhip", "not with it", which seems somewhat
different from what the original poster was getting at.
"Square", incidentally, was obsolete by the time I was learning to speak,
but we did use a "square gesture", taking the two index fingers of one's
hands and tracing a square in the air from top to bottom:
<<<<>>>>
v v
v v
v v
>>>><<<<
The meaning of this gesture, used only by kids, was not "square" in the
beatnik sense but more like "crazy, nonsensical". I don't know how widely
known this gesture was, or whether it has survived.
--
Richard
Kai Henningsen
> After all that research, what immediately springs to mind is the BBC TV
> series "Keeping Up Appearances" about a lady who lives in the middle-class
Hmm. Does the German TV series "Ein Herz und eine Seele" apply here? May
be better known to some people by the male lead, "Ekel Alfred", a small
man with a typical Adolf mustache that all too exactly described his
mindset.
As for "Biedermann", I don't know about other Germans, but to me the
immediate association is "Biedermann und die Brandstifter" ...
Linguistically - well, Kluge/Götze says that "Spießbürger" was a
derogatory name for citizens, after their typical weaponry (a spear,
"Spieß"), originally used by students in 1640. Interestingly enough, that
means that the meaning has changed extremely little in the 360 years of
this words history - students are possibly still the largest group to
regularly use this term, and their target is also very similar. And it's
still a derogatory term.
Reminds me a little of the ethymology of "German", though that's much older.
Kai
--
http://www.westfalen.de/private/khms/
"... by God I *KNOW* what this network is for, and you can't have it."
- Russ Allbery (r...@stanford.edu)
Klaas Bähre
Hi again,
first of all thanks a lot to all of you who replied to my question - the
more since I asked it in a fairly awkward way. I indeed should have
explained more exactly what "spießig" means in German; I would make this
good here but Nick Worley excellent and comprehensive explanations are
saving me this task I would have difficulties to cope with it even in
German. I was afraid "Spießigkeit" was a typically German phenomenon and
now feel relieved that it obviously is not.
"Everything she says and does is to prove how well she has done for
herself and to prove that she has arrived in the middle-class world."
That's perhaps the essence of "Spießigkeit" in German as well (leave
aside the fact that the bounds between different classes in Germany are a
bit more permeable). And Mrs. Buckets efforts to receive more TV channels
are fitting just perfectly as well.
Let me add a few more associations with this German term.
...
Well, I wrote a few lines but decided to delete them because I don't want
to bother you with my personal opinion about groups of people I don't
like for one or another reason. The basic meaning of Spießer surely is a
> conservative, reactionary, narrow-minded, conventional, petit bourgeois
person. I suppose, this is clear now.
But there are more shrewd uses of the word as well.
A leftist xyz ("Ein linker Spießer") could be a history teacher following
the views of the weekly newspaper "Die Zeit" as closely as possible and
giving his pupils lower marks if they dare to voice neo-conservative
opinions. A typical supporter of the Green party (45 years, beard,
glasses, one badly educated child, devoted to the German version of
political correctness) would be called a "Spießer" as well by many
people.
A little while ago I realized that even Neo-Nazis use the term to attack
the silent majority they consider to be their natural allies but who
refuse to share their views.
I remember to have had lunch with a friend last week: we complained about
the "Spießigkeit" of the members of German newsgroups. They correct you
whenever you make the slightest mistake (topics discussed, orthography,
German PC, software banditry, etc.) and try to masks the xyz-ness by
adding a ";-)" after each sentence.
As far as I see, Babbit seems to be the best equivalent at least in
American English, and I think I'm going to use this word from now on when
I want to offend people I don't like.
Btw-1: Phillistine once was common in German as well. In 19th century
students' slang "Philister" was a word for non-students - the bourgeois
people of Heidelberg and Göttingen who had to put up with the students'
oh so very funny escapades.
Btw-2: "Spießer" comes from "Spieß" = pike. In mediaeval and possibly in
Early modern times the inhabitants of most independent towns had to serve
in the local militia. This didn't concern the underclass people who
didn't enjoy civil rights, but the "lower middle class". These people had
the citizenship of the town, but when serving in the militia they were
infantry men because they couldn't afford more expensive weaponry than a
pike.
Thanks again,
Klaas
Klaas Bähre
first of all thanks a lot to all of you who replied to my question - the
more since I asked it in a fairly awkward way. I indeed should have
explained more exactly what "spießig" means in German; I would make this
good here but Nick Worley excellent and comprehensive explanations are
saving me this task I would have difficulties to cope with it even in
German. I was afraid "Spießigkeit" was a typically German phenomenon and
now feel relieved that it obviously is not.
"Everything she says and does is to prove how well she has done for
herself and to prove that she has arrived in the middle-class world."
That's perhaps the essence of "Spießigkeit" in German as well (leave
aside the fact that the bounds between different classes in Germany are
a bit more permeable). And Mrs. Buckets efforts to receive more TV
channels are fitting just perfectly as well.
Let me add a few more associations with this German term.
...
Well, I wrote a few lines but decided to delete them because I don't want
to bother you with my personal opinions concerning groups of people I
don't like for one or another reason. The basic meaning of Spießer surely
is a
> conservative, reactionary, narrow-minded, conventional, petit bourgeois
person. I suppose, this is clear now.
Klaas Bähre
"spießerhaft".
Joerg Digmayer
>I thought square meant "unhip", "not with it", which seems somewhat
>different from what the original poster was getting at.
However, it would fit quite well. Telling from my experience,
"spießig" has undergone some recent change of meaning. It is
commonly used these days to describe something or somebody dull,
out-of-date, un-hip, boring. For example, if some friends want to go
out on a Saturday night and one of them is reluctant, claiming he
was tired or broke or he had a head-ache, then his friends would
say: "Sei nicht so spießig und komm mit!" (At least around me)
Regards,
Joerg.
Rainer Thonnes
Klaas Bähre <jan....@gmx.net> writes:
>
>Does anybody happen to know an English equivalent for the German
>adjective "spießig"?
>
>use it in English as well.
What in heaven's name for? One of the advantages of immersing
oneself in the English language is that one no longer has to hear
that stupid word uttered all the time.
Incidentally, the word seems to have the property that, more often
than not, it identifies its users as those who are it, though of
course they don't like to think themselves it. Indeed they think
of themselves as being the exact opposite.
This raises the question: What is the opposite?
Steven
That's why I think 'smug' comes close to the meaning of the word.
> This raises the question: What is the opposite?
Erudite?
Steven
Klaas Bähre
> What in heaven's name for? One of the advantages of immersing
> oneself in the English language is that one no longer has to hear
> that stupid word uttered all the time.
Well, the simple fact that the word does exist and that it is obviously
being used rather frequently indicates that there is a certain need for.
Having gone through this thread, my suspicion was confirmed: The
phenomenon "Spießigkeit" is far from being typically German, but all that
complaint about it appears to be an aspect of Germany's never-ending
struggle for her soul.
I agree with you that the Sp-word perhaps is being used too often and by
the wrong people - especially among students who tend to have just this
quality they complain about. Everybody in Germany knows this situation: A
university student complains about the Spießigkeit of his surroundings or
friends - while he himself is wearing a polo-shirt, Bermuda shorts, white
cotton socks, and sandals, i.e. the archetype of a Spießer-outfit.
> This raises the question: What is the opposite?
It is sometimes difficult define the opposite of a quality. What's the
opposite of yellow, of bourgeois, of liquid? What's the opposite of a
greengrocer?
I will try to mention some groups of people usually not considered as
being Spießer.
Students (certainly not, since the use of Spießer as an invective comes
from 17th cent. students' language - but confer above),
intellectuals, educated people in general, aristocrats (even self-styled
ones), soldiers.
What about farmers, peasants? I'm not sure.
There are non-Spießer groups with a negative image as well:
Criminals, bums, snobs, proletarians (as far as they didn't become
Spießer after 1945, most of them did) - and okay, students for certain
people have a bad reputation as well.
Enough for now. Anyway: If you don't like the word simply don't use it.
But please don't keep other people who consider it necessary from using
it.
Best,
Klaas
--
Klaas Bähre
> being Spießer.
>
> Students (certainly not, since the use of Spießer as an invective comes
> from 17th cent. students' language - but confer above),
> intellectuals, educated people in general, aristocrats (even self-styled
> ones), soldiers.
Sorry, I've forgotten the artists!: painters, actors, etc.
Rainer Thonnes
Steven <ste...@sifre.demon.nl> writes:
>Rainer Thonnes wrote:
>> This raises the question: What is the opposite?
>
No, erudite just means well educated. You don't have to be an
ignorant pleb to be a Spießer, even if many of them are. Hence
erudition and Spießigkeit are orthogonal concepts, and cannot
therefore be opposites.
Steven
Mmm, maybe you're right. Though I would not call anyone with an
education erudite. And I have a hard time imagining a person that is
'spiessig' and erudite at the same time. My dutch dictionary gives
(translated to english): Erudite: 'broad knowledge coupled with fine
taste and critical sense'. Literally the term means something like
'de-roughened'. Which could translate to 'refined', 'sophisticated'.
Steven
Mark Brader
> Does anybody happen to know an English equivalent for the German
> adjective "spießig"?
Not yet mentioned in the thread, but fitting some of the things that
have been said, is "parochial". I imagine it's not quite right either.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "However, 0.02283% failure might be better than 50%
m...@vex.net | failure, depending on your needs." --Norman Diamond
John Woodgate
inimitably wrote:
>That's why I think 'smug' comes close to the meaning of the word.
>
>
>Erudite?
Gums.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. Phone +44 (0)1268 747839
Fax +44 (0)1268 777124. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk I wanted to make a fully-
automated nuclear-powered trawler,but it went into spontaneous fishing.
PLEASE do not mail copies of newsgroup posts to me.
tandp
>
> nickTWINKL...@24-7freecall.net (Nick Worley) wrote on
> 12.11.00 in <3a0ec...@d2o313.teliauk.com>:
>
> TV
> > series "Keeping Up Appearances" about a lady who lives in the
> middle-class
>
> May
> be better known to some people by the male lead, "Ekel Alfred", a
> small
> man with a typical Adolf mustache that all too exactly described his
> mindset.
>
(snip)
>
> Kai
> --
> http://www.westfalen.de/private/khms/
> "... by God I *KNOW* what this network is for, and you can't have it."
> - Russ Allbery (r...@stanford.edu)
--
The sender address is nospammed. To reply, please reverse spelling of
name to "tandp".
Kai Henningsen
> opinions. A typical supporter of the Green party (45 years, beard,
> glasses, one badly educated child, devoted to the German version of
> political correctness) would be called a "Spießer" as well by many
> people.
I think I'll take exception with this use of "typical" here. In fact, I'll
say that this is a prejudice that's typical for a "Spießer".
> As far as I see, Babbit seems to be the best equivalent at least in
> American English, and I think I'm going to use this word from now on when
> I want to offend people I don't like.
I don't think this needs comment.
techw...@my-deja.com
'real square', someone totally 'unhip!'
Meine zwei pfennige
techw...@my-deja.com
In article <8upn8p$150u$1...@news.tht.net>,
Kai Henningsen
> Kai Henningsen wrote:
> >
> > nickTWINKL...@24-7freecall.net (Nick Worley) wrote on
> > 12.11.00 in <3a0ec...@d2o313.teliauk.com>:
> >
> > > After all that research, what immediately springs to mind is the BBC
> > TV
> > > series "Keeping Up Appearances" about a lady who lives in the
> > middle-class
> >
> > Hmm. Does the German TV series "Ein Herz und eine Seele" apply here?
> > May
> > be better known to some people by the male lead, "Ekel Alfred", a
> > small
> > man with a typical Adolf mustache that all too exactly described his
> > mindset.
> >
> That's Alf Garnett. The ultimate British "Spiesser".
Nope, Alfred Tetzlaff played by Heinz Schubert, now deceased. Pictures at
http://mitglied.tripod.de/EkelAlfred/inhalt.htm among others.
Kai Henningsen
I don't think I've run across that usage.
Bettina Price
Kai Henningsen <kaih=7pw7d...@khms.westfalen.de> wrote in message news:7pw7d...@khms.westfalen.de...
> pd...@freenet.de (tandp) wrote on 13.11.00 in <3A106DF5...@freenet.de>:
>
> > Kai Henningsen wrote:
> > >
> > > nickTWINKL...@24-7freecall.net (Nick Worley) wrote on
> > > 12.11.00 in <3a0ec...@d2o313.teliauk.com>:
> > >
> > > May
> > > be better known to some people by the male lead, "Ekel Alfred", a
> > > small
> > > man with a typical Adolf mustache that all too exactly described his
> > > mindset.
> > >
> > That's Alf Garnett. The ultimate British "Spiesser".
>
> Nope, Alfred Tetzlaff played by Heinz Schubert, now deceased. Pictures at
> http://mitglied.tripod.de/EkelAlfred/inhalt.htm among others.
>
But they are really one and the same person, aren't they - German telly bought the rights to the original British series and did a
German version (for which I thought the writing was excellent).
Talking of Spießer, has anyone ever read Heinrich Mann's "Der Untertan"? Now _that_ was the ultimate Spießer to me.
Greetings,
Bettina
Klaas Baehre
bettina...@pappnase.demon.co.uk says...
> But they are really one and the same person, aren't they - German telly
> ought the rights to the original British series and did a
> German version (for which I thought the writing was excellent).
> Talking of Spießer, has anyone ever read Heinrich Mann's "Der
> Untertan"? Now _that_ was the ultimate Spießer to me.
German pupils usually are forced to read it in school, and it perhaps is
among the more influential books with respect to modern German perception
of the pre-1914 era in Germany. There is a film-version of the book as
well: a fairly ridiculous GDR propaganda movie from about 1960 which for
reasons I never got is often shown in Western German schools! At least I
was forced to watch it in school during the late 80s: we at those times
rather considered our leftist teachers - who enjoyed such old-fashioned
anti-German propaganda stuff - "Spießer".
The main point with Dietrich Heßling is that he has an hierarchical
mindset: he is submissive to the authorities and merciless towards people
subordinated to him. This attitude is presented to us as being typically
German by the book and by the movie. Perhaps it is and it surely is one
aspect of Spießertum. But when we in school voiced doubts concerning the
sincerity of Mann's and the movie's intentions, this inevitably resulted
in being cut short by our teachers. This is the reason why I associate
"Spießertum" rather with full beards, basque berets, and self-knitted
pullovers than with Prussian jackboots and uniforms.
Jonathan Holland
> "Spießertum" rather with full beards, basque berets, and self-knitted
> pullovers than with Prussian jackboots and uniforms.
I used to hang out with a bunch of lefty students in the Dortmund area
in the early 80s and some of the guys used to sit in lectures knitting
pullovers during lectures (do German students still do this, by the way?
- it was very trendy then. They had to reach at least to the knees and
be about four sizes too big to be truly in vogue.). I woudn't have
called them Spiesser though, and there was no shortage of beards and
inventive headgear. Spiesser-Nachwuchs? Ruhrpott-Spiesser maybe? Now
that does sound insulting.
Jonathan
Klaas Baehre schrieb:
>
> In article <974275084.19960.0...@news.demon.co.uk>,
> bettina...@pappnase.demon.co.uk says...
>
> > But they are really one and the same person, aren't they - German telly
> > ought the rights to the original British series and did a
> > German version (for which I thought the writing was excellent).
> > Talking of Spießer, has anyone ever read Heinrich Mann's "Der
> > Untertan"? Now _that_ was the ultimate Spießer to me.
>
Klaas Baehre
> This is the reason why I associate
> > "Spießertum" rather with full beards, basque berets, and self-knitted
> > pullovers than with Prussian jackboots and uniforms.
>
> I used to hang out with a bunch of lefty students in the Dortmund area
> in the early 80s and some of the guys used to sit in lectures knitting
> pullovers during lectures (do German students still do this, by the way?
> - it was very trendy then. They had to reach at least to the knees and
> be about four sizes too big to be truly in vogue.). I woudn't have
> called them Spiesser though, and there was no shortage of beards and
> inventive headgear. Spiesser-Nachwuchs? Ruhrpott-Spiesser maybe? Now
> that does sound insulting.
> Jonathan
>
the folks I was complaining about. Thank God, these times have gone now.
We would have called them "linke Spießer", but admittedly it was rather
to tease them than because of intellectual reflections. The leftist OTOH
then used to call the neo-conservative youngster (German equivalent to
British Thatcherist youth) "Nachwuchsspießer". A common conflict among
generations or even among different political camps and both sides used
the same invective. Strange.
Various German group members complained about the very use of the word
in general. Perhaps they are right and it might disappear in the near
future since now it obviously is being use for everybody and anything.
Jonathan Holland
nachgewachsen into full-blown reactionary Spiesser though, even if the
term Nachwuchsspiesser was originally aimed at young conservatives.
Jonathan
Klaas Baehre schrieb:
John Woodgate
<jan....@gmx.net> inimitably wrote:
>and self-knitted
>pullovers
You have pullovers that knit themselves in Germany? Over here, we only
have balls of twine that clearly have ambitions to be string vests. (;-)
Bettina Price
Klaas Baehre <jan....@gmx.net> wrote in message news:MPG.147c799a3...@news.t-online.de...
> > German version (for which I thought the writing was excellent).
> > Talking of Spießer, has anyone ever read Heinrich Mann's "Der
> > Untertan"? Now _that_ was the ultimate Spießer to me.
>
> among the more influential books with respect to modern German perception
> of the pre-1914 era in Germany. There is a film-version of the book as
> well: a fairly ridiculous GDR propaganda movie from about 1960 which for
> reasons I never got is often shown in Western German schools! At least I
> was forced to watch it in school during the late 80s: we at those times
> rather considered our leftist teachers - who enjoyed such old-fashioned
> anti-German propaganda stuff - "Spießer".
>
> The main point with Dietrich Heßling is that he has an hierarchical
> mindset: he is submissive to the authorities and merciless towards people
> subordinated to him. This attitude is presented to us as being typically
> German by the book and by the movie. Perhaps it is and it surely is one
> aspect of Spießertum. But when we in school voiced doubts concerning the
> sincerity of Mann's and the movie's intentions, this inevitably resulted
> "Spießertum" rather with full beards, basque berets, and self-knitted
> pullovers than with Prussian jackboots and uniforms.
>
Yeah, I got to watch the same movie in the Sekundarstufe I (must have been about 1980/81, I think). I always saw it more as an
indictment of petit bourgeois double standards. Although our German teacher was a lot more open to debate I do know the type of
teacher you are talking about, though. My first English teacher was one of them, and she spent more time on indoctrinating us
ten-year-olds on "Kernkraft nein danke" and Brokdorf than on teaching us English. If a pupil had a problem with others, you had a
group discussion in a big circle, which of course didn't solve the problem but made that pupil the designated victim. Completely
ruined my next five years at school.
Greetings,
Bettina
Kai Henningsen
> Klaas Baehre <jan....@gmx.net> wrote in message
> > news:MPG.147c799a3...@news.t-online.de... In article
> > <974275084.19960.0...@news.demon.co.uk>,
> > bettina...@pappnase.demon.co.uk says...
> >
> > > But they are really one and the same person, aren't they - German telly
> > > ought the rights to the original British series and did a
> > > German version (for which I thought the writing was excellent).
> > > Talking of Spießer, has anyone ever read Heinrich Mann's "Der
> > > Untertan"? Now _that_ was the ultimate Spießer to me.
> >
> > German pupils usually are forced to read it in school, and it perhaps is
> > among the more influential books with respect to modern German perception
> > of the pre-1914 era in Germany. There is a film-version of the book as
> > well: a fairly ridiculous GDR propaganda movie from about 1960 which for
> > reasons I never got is often shown in Western German schools! At least I
> > was forced to watch it in school during the late 80s: we at those times
> > rather considered our leftist teachers - who enjoyed such old-fashioned
> > anti-German propaganda stuff - "Spießer".
I never happened across either.
> to debate I do know the type of teacher you are talking about, though. My
> first English teacher was one of them, and she spent more time on
> indoctrinating us ten-year-olds on "Kernkraft nein danke" and Brokdorf than
> on teaching us English. If a pupil had a problem with others, you had a
> group discussion in a big circle, which of course didn't solve the problem
> but made that pupil the designated victim. Completely ruined my next five
> years at school.
Strange, I always thought of those teachers as caricaturist's more
unbelievable products - never happened across someone even remotely
describable that way.
Maybe I was lucky.
Of course, in 1980, I had just left school. But I think I had already
heard about those guys.
Well, I do know where they came from, anyway. My father used to rant about
examining them. He was a professor for pedagogics, definitively leaning
left, and not at all happy about the fuzzy-brained-ness *or* the
ideological close-mindedness[1] of some of his leftist students. Also
played chess and did Kabarett. You might find out something by putting
"Jürgen Henningsen" in a search engine.
[1] ObAUE: close- or closed-?
Andy
<kaih=7qXs3...@khms.westfalen.de> wrote
[]
>Well, I do know where they came from, anyway. My father used to rant about
>examining them. He was a professor for pedagogics, definitively leaning
>left, and not at all happy about the fuzzy-brained-ness *or* the
>ideological close-mindedness[1] of some of his leftist students. Also
>played chess and did Kabarett. You might find out something by putting
>"Jürgen Henningsen" in a search engine.
>
>[1] ObAUE: close- or closed-?
>
However it sounds slightly odd to me. Using "narrow-mindedness" or
"blinkers" would _sound_ better, even if it neither quite means the
same. I think it's the repeated 'd' in closeDminDeDness which is giving
the odd sound.
--
Andy
For Austrian philately <URL: http://www.kitzbuhel.demon.co.uk/austamps/>
For Lupus <URL: http://www.kitzbuhel.demon.co.uk/lupus/>
For my other interests <URL: http://www.kitzbuhel.demon.co.uk/>
Bettina Price
Kai Henningsen <kaih=7qXs3...@khms.westfalen.de> wrote in message
news:7qXs3...@khms.westfalen.de...
>> bettina...@pappnase.demon.co.uk (Bettina Price) wrote on 15.11.00 in
<974361488.2043.0...@news.demon.co.uk>:
>
My
> > first English teacher was one of them, and she spent more time on
> > indoctrinating us ten-year-olds on "Kernkraft nein danke" and Brokdorf
than
> > on teaching us English. If a pupil had a problem with others, you had a
> > group discussion in a big circle, which of course didn't solve the
problem
> > but made that pupil the designated victim. Completely ruined my next
five
> > years at school.
>
> Strange, I always thought of those teachers as caricaturist's more
> unbelievable products - never happened across someone even remotely
> describable that way.
>
> Maybe I was lucky.
Believe me, you were. She was frightening. I could have seen her in the Red
Guard.
> Of course, in 1980, I had just left school. But I think I had already
> heard about those guys.
Well, I had her in 1975, and my jaw still clenches just thinking about her.
> Well, I do know where they came from, anyway. My father used to rant about
> examining them. He was a professor for pedagogics, definitively leaning
> left, and not at all happy about the fuzzy-brained-ness *or* the
> ideological close-mindedness[1] of some of his leftist students. Also
> played chess and did Kabarett. You might find out something by putting
> "Jürgen Henningsen" in a search engine.
Where did he teach?
> [1] ObAUE: close- or closed-?
Closed.
Greetings,
Bettina
Tim Kynerd
news:aSp7y1AS...@kitzbuhel.demon.co.uk...
> In article <7qXs3...@khms.westfalen.de>, Kai Henningsen
> <kaih=7qXs3...@khms.westfalen.de> wrote
> []
about
> >examining them. He was a professor for pedagogics, definitively leaning
> >left, and not at all happy about the fuzzy-brained-ness *or* the
> >ideological close-mindedness[1] of some of his leftist students. Also
> >played chess and did Kabarett. You might find out something by putting
> >"Jürgen Henningsen" in a search engine.
> >
> >
>
> However it sounds slightly odd to me. Using "narrow-mindedness" or
> "blinkers" would _sound_ better, even if it neither quite means the
> same. I think it's the repeated 'd' in closeDminDeDness which is giving
> the odd sound.
"Closed-minded" is quite common in the US; although the noun form
"closed-mindedness" is less so, even the adjective has those three D's
you're talking about (which I agree are a bit awkward, but we deal
:-) ). That awkwardness, though, is probably what leads a lot of
people to pronounce, and then write, "close-minded" and related forms.
--
Tim Kynerd Sundbyberg, Sweden t...@tram.nu
"But freedom to differ is not limited to things that do not matter much.
That would be a mere shadow of freedom. The test of its substance is the
right to differ as to things that touch the heart of the existing order."
-- West Virginia Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943)