And how do YOU pronounce *cache*?
Ross Howard
sj...@cus.cam.ac.uk (Simon Buck) wrote:
>Ysgrifennodd Benjamin D Lukoff (blu...@u.washington.edu):
> jcd...@ix.netcom.com (J.C. Dill) writes:
> >>Similar differences exist for
> >>'cache' (although to be honest that doesn't come up in everyday
> >>conversation.)
> >To me, cache should be pronounced like cake, with a sh in the k's spot. It
> >should NOT be pronounced like cash... there is that e at the end, the a should
> >be long, right?
> I've never heard anyone pronounce the word other than like 'cash', and
> that is the only pronunciation listed in the dictionary.
> Just because there's an e at the end doesn't mean the previous vowel is
> 'long' -- how do you pronounce 'mustache'? My guess is you sound the 'a'
> as in 'ash' not as in 'ape'.
>Neither! `Moustache' (NB) has the same vowel as `past' or `part', and it
>_is_ long. Bad example!-)
Not if you're from north of the Trent; it's a good example. Cache
rhymes with (and can have a similar meaning to) "stash", which
definitely rhymes with m(o)ustache... and "panache". How do southern
Brits pronounce that one, then -- "puh-NAHSH"? Puh-leez!
Victoria Martin
On Mon, 6 Jan 1997, Ross Howard wrote:
> > jcd...@ix.netcom.com (J.C. Dill) writes:
>
> > >To me, cache should be pronounced like cake, with a sh in the k's spot. It
> > >should NOT be pronounced like cash... there is that e at the end, the a should
> > >be long, right?
The -e is only there because the word was borrowed from French (that's
why the -ch- is pronounced like -sh- as well). It doesn't tell you
anything about how to pronounce the vowel.
besides, the -a- sound in cake is not actually a long vowel, it's a
diphthong (it changes as you speak it, so it starts off like one vowel
and ends up like another).The long vowel is the one in 'last' (if you're
a Southern Brit speaker). Anyway, the point is that "cache" rhymes with
"ash", in spite of the spelling.
> >Neither! `Moustache' (NB) has the same vowel as `past' or `part', and it
> >_is_ long. Bad example!-)
>
> Not if you're from north of the Trent; it's a good example. Cache
> rhymes with (and can have a similar meaning to) "stash", which
> definitely rhymes with m(o)ustache... and "panache". How do southern
> Brits pronounce that one, then -- "puh-NAHSH"? Puh-leez!
>
No, we pronounce it like the French, with a short -a-. Moustache has been
more assimiliated, hence the long Southern -a-. Americans pronounce
moustache differently again, with the stress on the first syllable (so it
sounds like muss), and the second syllable clsoer to Northern British
than Southern British pronunciation.
Victoria
John M. Lawler
Victoria Martin <sann...@ermine.ox.ac.uk> writes:
>>>To me, cache should be pronounced like cake, with a sh in the k's spot.
>>>It should NOT be pronounced like cash... there is that e at the end,
>>>the a should be long, right?
>The -e is only there because the word was borrowed from French (that's
>why the -ch- is pronounced like -sh- as well). It doesn't tell you
>anything about how to pronounce the vowel.
The use of "silent e" to indicate vowel length is a result of the
change from Middle English to Early Modern English. "Cache" is a
more recent borrowing from French into Modern English and hasn't
undergone the sound changes that would make it rhyme with "cake".
>Besides, the -a- sound in cake is not actually a long vowel, it's a
>diphthong (it changes as you speak it, so it starts off like one vowel
>and ends up like another).The long vowel is the one in 'last' (if you're
>a Southern Brit speaker). Anyway, the point is that "cache" rhymes with
>"ash", in spite of the spelling.
I can't say anything about European English pronunciation, but in the USA,
if the word is known to the speaker, and they're not just producing a
spelling pronunciation of something unfamiliar, it's almost always
pronounced as a homonym with the word "cash", rhyming with "rash";
phonemically /kaeS/ or /k&S/, depending on how you represent the "ash"
digraph in ASCII.
Even in Cache County, Utah, where I used to live, I never heard any other
pronunciation (though Utah is famous for having one of the most divergent
phonological rules in US English, the /or/~/ar/ Alpha-Switch).
>Americans pronounce 'moustache' differently again, with the stress on the
>first syllable (so it sounds like muss), and the second syllable closer
>to Northern British than Southern British pronunciation.
Again, I can't say what it's closer to in European English terms, but the
ordinary American pronunciation of "moustache" is stressed on the first
syllable -- a tendency particularly common for bisyllabic nouns in English
and exaggerated in the so-called "P-U" dialects (so-called by some
linguists, at least; "P-U" is short for "PO.lice-UM.brella" (CI.garette,
IN.surance, etc)), but common enough in standard whitebread American, e.g.
"AD.dress (n), ad.DRESS (v)".
With the stress on the first syllable of "moustache" (often spelled
"mustache", by the way, a further anglification), the vowel is a stressed
schwa, or caret, but the final syllable is not unstressed, receiving a
secondary stress, which allows a full vowel pronunciation, and that vowel
is once again the "ash" digraph: /'m...@s.taeS/, so it *does* endrhyme with
the homophonous "cash" or "cache", though not with identical stress.
In colloquial American English.
Your mileage may vary.
Void where prohibited.
Some assembly required.
Batteries not included.
Further disclaimers at
http://www.lsa.umich.edu/ling/jlawler/disclaimers.html
-John Lawler http://www.lsa.umich.edu/ling/jlawler/ U Michigan Linguistics
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Language is the most massive and inclusive art we know, a - Edward Sapir
mountainous and anonymous work of unconscious generations." Language (1921)
Mirabelle Severn & Thames
In article <Pine.OSF.3.91.970108...@ermine.ox.ac.uk>,
Victoria Martin <sann...@ermine.ox.ac.uk> wrote:
>>>jcd...@ix.netcom.com (J.C. Dill) writes:
>>>>To me, cache should be pronounced like cake, with a sh in the k's spot. It
>>>>should NOT be pronounced like cash... there is that e at the end,
>>>>the a should be long, right?
>...besides, the -a- sound in cake is not actually a long vowel, it's a
>diphthong (it changes as you speak it, so it starts off like one vowel
>and ends up like another).The long vowel is the one in 'last' (if you're
>a Southern Brit speaker)....
I wonder whether J.C. Dill was raised with the same
phonetics program that I was. When I was taught
reading and spelling in the first grade, we were
taught that "a", "o", and "u" had three sounds each,
and "e" and "i" each had two. The "long" sounds were
the vowels in "rate", "Pete", "bite", "rote", and
"cute". A silent "e" on the end of a word usually
changed the vowel from short to long, as in the change
from "rat" to "rate".
I don't know why that program used the term "long vowel"
to describe something completely different from what
linguists call long vowels, but it doesn't seem to have
done me any harm, aside from a couple of months of
confusion when I first noticed the discrepancy on a.u.e.
Naomi Brokaw
from California's central coast
Snodgrass
Any takers for "cashay" ?
That's what I thought the pronunciation was.
Markus Laker
rho...@valnet.es (Ross Howard):
> Not if you're from north of the Trent; it's a good example. Cache
> rhymes with (and can have a similar meaning to) "stash", which
> definitely rhymes with m(o)ustache... and "panache". How do southern
> Brits pronounce that one, then -- "puh-NAHSH"? Puh-leez!
Since you ask: [k&S st&S m@'stA:S p@'n&S]. These funny symbols are
explained in the a.u.e FAQ, which you can obtain (next time I log on) by
sending me (now) a blank email message with the words 'make money fast'
in the title.
Those pronunciations, very roughly, are: kash, stash, merSTARSH,
perNASH. Remember that, as a southern Brit, I don't pronounce any of
those [r] sounds.
Markus Laker.
--
If you quote me, I would appreciate an email copy of your article.
JC Dill
On 8 Jan 1997 22:20:33 GMT, nao...@sco.COM (Mirabelle Severn & Thames)
expound upon: "long vowels [was Re: And how do YOU pronounce
*cache*?]"
>
>In article <Pine.OSF.3.91.970108...@ermine.ox.ac.uk>,
>Victoria Martin <sann...@ermine.ox.ac.uk> wrote:
>>>>jcd...@ix.netcom.com (J.C. Dill) writes:
>
>>>>>To me, cache should be pronounced like cake, with a sh in the k's spot. It
>>>>>should NOT be pronounced like cash... there is that e at the end,
>>>>>the a should be long, right?
>
>>...besides, the -a- sound in cake is not actually a long vowel, it's a
>>diphthong (it changes as you speak it, so it starts off like one vowel
>>and ends up like another).The long vowel is the one in 'last' (if you're
>>a Southern Brit speaker)....
>
>I wonder whether J.C. Dill was raised with the same
>phonetics program that I was.
bingo, you hit the nail on the head!
> When I was taught
>reading and spelling in the first grade, we were
>taught that "a", "o", and "u" had three sounds each,
>and "e" and "i" each had two. The "long" sounds were
>the vowels in "rate", "Pete", "bite", "rote", and
>"cute". A silent "e" on the end of a word usually
>changed the vowel from short to long, as in the change
>from "rat" to "rate".
and thus from cash to cache, short A to long A.
I know I won't win this argument. sigh.
>
>Naomi Brokaw
>from California's central coast
city?
JC in Sunny SillyCon Valley
John M. Lawler
Mirabelle Severn & Thames <nao...@sco.COM> writes:
>When I was taught
>reading and spelling in the first grade, we were
>taught that "a", "o", and "u" had three sounds each,
>and "e" and "i" each had two. The "long" sounds were
>the vowels in "rate", "Pete", "bite", "rote", and
>"cute". A silent "e" on the end of a word usually
>changed the vowel from short to long, as in the change
>from "rat" to "rate".
>I don't know why that program used the term "long vowel"
>to describe something completely different from what
>linguists call long vowels, but it doesn't seem to have
>done me any harm, aside from a couple of months of
>confusion when I first noticed the discrepancy on a.u.e.
It's traditional in American literacy education to use the term "long" to
refer to the diphthongized vowels /ey, iy, ay, ow, (y)uw/ in Modern
English, because they represent the modern reflexes of vowels that were
actually, linguistically, temporally, *long* in Middle English. This is
The Great Vowel Shift we're talking about, folks.
It was the biggest shift in pronunciation marking the transition between
Middle and Early Modern English. Middle English had phonemic vowel length
like German, and in the Great Vowel Shift, all the *long* vowels (but none
of the short ones) moved upwards in the mouth, from (roughly) their
current European values to their current English letter-name values.
(There are complications and caveats to this statement; it wasn't quite
that simple. But it'll do.)
Since printing, which led to standardized spelling (there was none in
Middle English), got started in England during the period when things were
still settling down from the Shift, the traditions of spelling in Modern
English are actually Middle English in origin. This is why Chaucer
*looks* sort of like English, but doesn't *sound* like it.
Hence the "long vowels" of modern Phonics fame. The rules aren't very
good (they predict a lot, though there are far too many exceptions, most
extremely common), but they're all we have to fall back on as long as it's
taboo to teach English-speaking students the facts about English. And the
recent Ebonic Plague shows what happens when anybody tries to acknowledge
the realities of language change. Mythology is always more comfortable
than reality, and in the USA at least, that's all that counts.
If you happen to be interested in the realities, the facts are all in
David Crystal's 'Cambridge Encyclopedia of The English Language', with
abundant details and examples available in Manfred Go"rlach's excellent
'Introduction to Early Modern English'.
Dr. Peter Kittel
In article <Pine.OSF.3.91.970108...@ermine.ox.ac.uk> Victoria Martin <sann...@ermine.ox.ac.uk> writes:
>On Mon, 6 Jan 1997, Ross Howard wrote:
>> > jcd...@ix.netcom.com (J.C. Dill) writes:
>>
>> > >To me, cache should be pronounced like cake, with a sh in the k's spot. It
>> > >should NOT be pronounced like cash... there is that e at the end, the a should
>> > >be long, right?
Yes, I know it also that way. So why not say "caaash"? With a steady "a",
and not an "ay".
>besides, the -a- sound in cake is not actually a long vowel, it's a
>diphthong (it changes as you speak it, so it starts off like one vowel
>and ends up like another).
Indeed, this should be avoided for this word.
>The long vowel is the one in 'last' (if you're
>a Southern Brit speaker). Anyway, the point is that "cache" rhymes with
>"ash", in spite of the spelling.
But with a long "a" like in "last" in American pronunciation.
--
Best Regards, Dr. Peter Kittel // http://www.pios.de
Private Site in Frankfurt, Germany \X/ office: pet...@pios.de
Ein gutes 1997! A happy new year!
Keith C. Ivey
Snodgrass <aphr...@tecon.eu> wrote:
>Any takers for "cashay" ?
>That's what I thought the pronunciation was.
You're thinking of "cachet". "Cache" has only one syllable,
whether it's French or English.
Keith C. Ivey <kci...@cpcug.org> Washington, DC
Contributing Editor/Webmaster
The Editorial Eye <http://www.eeicom.com/eye/>
Rainer Thonnes
In article <5auh3a$g37$1...@grissom.powerup.com.au>,
rmot...@powerup.com.au (Raymot) writes:
>
> In AusE, it is usually pronounced /keIS/ ie kaysh, or as in the
> first syllable of spaceship /speIS,SIp/ (true!).
> Anyhow this is how all newsreaders pronounce it when talking about
> the finding of a cache of weapons etc. (even though Macquarie
> Dictionary has /k&S/ = "cash".
>
> BTW, I like "kaysh".
Perhaps, but as a joke it'd grate before long.
Judging by the accent of the occasional antipodean visitor that has
come my way, the Aussie pronunciation of "cash" sounds not much unlike
"kaysh", so it's little wonder they pronounce "cache" that way too.
Do they in fact distinguish the two?
Matthew Wyneken
In article <peter...@combo.ganesha.com>,
pet...@combo.ganesha.com (Dr. Peter Kittel) writes:
>>To me, cache should be pronounced like cake, with a sh in the k's spot. It
>>should NOT be pronounced like cash... there is that e at the end, the a should
>>be long, right?
>
> Yes, I know it also that way. So why not say "caaash"? With a steady "a",
> and not an "ay".
Please keep in mind that when a linguistically untrained American (I
don't know about the British) talks about a "long a" and a "short a"
they are not refering to the same things that a linguist or a German
would refer to with these terms. In school you learn that "cake" has a
"long a" (in reality a diphthong) and "cash" has a "short a" (which I
pronounce as a long, forward "a"). At least that's the way I learned
it back in elementary school. Linguistically speaking the terminology
is incorrect, however it is correct in colloquial American usage since
all Americans (I think) know what you're talking about.
--
MfG,
Matthew Wyneken (Matthew...@physik.uni-freiburg.de)
Dr. Peter Kittel
In article <32D4D9...@tecon.eu> Snodgrass <aphr...@tecon.eu> writes:
>
>Any takers for "cashay" ?
>
>That's what I thought the pronunciation was.
Well, an old colleague did it the same way, of course in correct
French pronunciation "caché" (e accent aigu at the end), as he
thaught it were the French expression for "caught".
He also pronounces "default" the French way "défault".
And it's probably hopeless to talk about the difference of a real
"é" and the "ay" sound above.
S Martin
In article <5b16jh$9...@hobbes.sco.com>, nao...@sco.COM (Mirabelle Severn & Thames) says:
>
>
>In article <Pine.OSF.3.91.970108...@ermine.ox.ac.uk>,
>Victoria Martin <sann...@ermine.ox.ac.uk> wrote:
>I wonder whether J.C. Dill was raised with the same
>taught that "a", "o", and "u" had three sounds each,
>and "e" and "i" each had two. The "long" sounds were
>the vowels in "rate", "Pete", "bite", "rote", and
>"cute". A silent "e" on the end of a word usually
>changed the vowel from short to long, as in the change
>from "rat" to "rate".
>
>I don't know why that program used the term "long vowel"
>to describe something completely different from what
>linguists call long vowels, but it doesn't seem to have
>done me any harm, aside from a couple of months of
>confusion when I first noticed the discrepancy on a.u.e.
>
>from California's central coast
>
pronuciation. We just never changed the name.
Middle English:
long a: as in today's "father"
long e: " " " "fey" (but a pure vowel)
long i: " " " "seen"
long o: " " " "float" (but a pure vowel)
Don't they teach Chaucer anymore <grin>?
-Steve Martin
Mark Barton
On Fri, Jan 10, 1997 10:50 PM, Rainer Thonnes <mailto:r...@dcs.ed.ac.uk>
wrote:
Yes. As a very good approximation, anything that RP distinguishes,
Australian does also, and vice versa. The exact vowels of course are
somewhat different.
It's unprecedented to be told that "cash" sounds like "caysh" (I personally
am agnostic about the pronounciation of "cache"). As an Australian overseas
one gets used to being told that the sounds of "I" and "a" are
indistinguishable, although they are quite distinct to Australian ears. I
recall the time that a friend of mine turned to me in the middle of a
conversation in Japanese and said, out of the blue, quite distinctly, in
English, "I'm going to hospital to die." I believe I sat there with my
mouth open, horrified, for fully thirty seconds before I realised I was
being teased about my accent. If he'd said "today", I would have heard
"today", but he didn't, he said "to die".
This feature of the Australian accent is apparently common knowledge to
Japanese and a standard conversation starter with Australians. I have
learnt to follow this opening by reminding them of the song "The Rain in
Spain" from "My Fair Lady" where Eliza Dolittle(sp?) is "cured" of a "ay"
sound which is supposed to be Cockney but is not far off broad Australian.
(Audrey Hepburn is adored in Japan, and everyone knows the movie.)
It must be true though because Japanese commonly misunderstand me on
exactly that point.
Cheers,
Mark B.
Klaus Wacker
Dr. Peter Kittel <pet...@combo.ganesha.com> wrote:
> In article <32D4D9...@tecon.eu> Snodgrass <aphr...@tecon.eu> writes:
> >
> >Any takers for "cashay" ?
> >
> >That's what I thought the pronunciation was.
> Well, an old colleague did it the same way, of course in correct
> French pronunciation "caché" (e accent aigu at the end), as he
> thaught it were the French expression for "caught".
"Caché" ist the French word for "hidden" (versteckt), 2nd participle
male of the verb cacher (to hide, verstecken). I don't know what the
origin of cache in English is, but I think the French noun "cache",
where the e is silent, would be a better candidate than caché.
--
Klaus Wacker wac...@Physik.Uni-Dortmund.DE
51°29'9"N 7°25'9"E http://www.physik.uni-dortmund.de/~wacker
Raymot
In article <AEFDE26...@133.11.142.52>, mba...@icrr.u-tokyo.ac.jp
.>rmot...@powerup.com.au (Raymot) writes:
>>>
>>> In AusE, it is usually pronounced /keIS/ ie kaysh, or as in the
>>> first syllable of spaceship /speIS,SIp/ (true!).
>>> Anyhow this is how all newsreaders pronounce it when talking about
>>> the finding of a cache of weapons etc. (even though Macquarie
>>> Dictionary has /k&S/ = "cash".
>>>
>>> BTW, I like "kaysh".
>
>>Perhaps, but as a joke it'd grate before long.
No doubt. But as a serious pronunication it would grow on one.
>Yes. As a very good approximation, anything that RP distinguishes,
>Australian does also, and vice versa. The exact vowels of course are
>somewhat different.
>It's unprecedented to be told that "cash" sounds like "caysh"
Agreed, cash and caysh are quite distinct in Australian.
>I recall the time that a friend of mine turned to me in the middle of a
>conversation in Japanese and said, out of the blue, quite distinctly, in
>English, "I'm going to hospital to die." I believe I sat there with my
>mouth open, horrified, for fully thirty seconds before I realised I was
>being teased about my accent. If he'd said "today", I would have heard
>"today", but he didn't, he said "to die".
>This feature of the Australian accent is apparently common knowledge to
>Japanese and a standard conversation starter with Australians.
This is true. We were taught very specifically in Medical School,
20 odd years ago, that if a foreign patient asked how things were
going, we were not to say: "Don't worry; you're going home today".
(True story).
In fact, this is particularly important with Italian immigrants,
of whom we have more than a few. They tend to exaggerate the /aI/
sound (as in die) since that is their normal phonetic pronunication
of "ai/ay". So on learning AusE, they are quite happy to follow our
misguided example of pronouncing "day" as it is spelt. (Though,
actually, I think we say "day" more as /d&i/ or even the triphthong,
/d&@i/ than as /daI/.
Raymot /reImA.t/ or /r&@imA.t/
=======
Brisbane, Australia /brIzb@n @str&@ilja/
rmot...@powerup.com.au
http://www.powerup.com.au/~rmottare/
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