Kaffee oder Coffee?
Craig Nance
this something that is in flux at the moment?
Paul Schmitz-Josten
<3e28cc6f...@News.CIS.DFN.DE>:
>Do native German speakers use the word "coffee" or "der Kaffee" or is
>this something that is in flux at the moment?
It is still "Kaffee". Coffee shops (american style) are rare at the moment,
so except for the first letter the old song is still true in spelling:
"Ce - A - Eff - Eff - E - E, trink nicht zu viel Kaffee!
Nichts für Kinder ist der Türkentrank,
schwächt die Nerven, macht Dich schwach und krank!
Sei doch kein Muselmann,
der es nicht lassen kann!"
(it is based on a classic piano music piece, but I forgot which one)
Ciao,
Paul
Helmut Richter
> "Ce - A - Eff - Eff - E - E, trink nicht zu viel Kaffee!
>[...]
> (it is based on a classic piano music piece, but I forgot which one)
It is by J.S.Bach. An the first six notes are - you guess it! :
C-A-F-F-E-E (descending from the C).
Helmut Richter
Eva Bekker
>Do native German speakers use the word "coffee" or "der Kaffee" or is
>this something that is in flux at the moment?
In Northern Germany 'plattdeutsch' speaking people drink "koffie"
(Dutch people too). It sounds exactly like coffee.
Also the growing number of coffee shops (like 'Balzac'), which are
actually called coffe shops in Germany, speaking of coffee instead of
Kaffee may be popular among young folks. But usually - it's simply
Kaffee.
Peace
Eva
--
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Eva Bekker
...in reply to Craig Nance:
>"Ce - A - Eff - Eff - E - E, trink nicht zu viel Kaffee!
>Nichts für Kinder ist der Türkentrank,
>schwächt die Nerven, macht Dich schwach und krank!
>Sei doch kein Muselmann,
>der es nicht lassen kann!"
Danke für den Ohrwurm! :>
>
>(it is based on a classic piano music piece, but I forgot which one)
>
AFAIK Mozart wrote it.
Helmut Richter
> Also the growing number of coffee shops (like 'Balzac'), which are
> actually called coffe shops in Germany, speaking of coffee instead of
> Kaffee may be popular among young folks. But usually - it's simply
> Kaffee.
But the problem is where the stress is in the word.
The drink is spelt "Kaffee" and stressed on either syllable but always
with a long "e": ['kafe:] or [ka'fe:]. In Switzerland and Austria, always
the second syllable is stressed, in Germany, both is frequently heard. If
someone reduces the second syllable to a schwa (pronounced ['kaf@] as if
spelt "Kaffe"), it is a colloquial term for very thin or very bad
coffee. Most coffee as served in the US would probably fall into this
category, as German coffee is typically stronger - but we have no free
refill.
The classical coffee room (analogous to a tea room but most people drink
coffee) where you take coffee or tea along with cake is spelt "Café" and
stressed on the second syllable. Cafés are found everywhere, but
especially in Vienna they have developed to a very high culture.
Helmut Richter
Joachim Pense
(news:slrnb2icj8....@lxhri01.lrz.lrz-muenchen.de):
It is *not* by Bach. Don't confuse it with the "Kaffeekantate" "Schweigt
stille, plaudert nicht".
Joachim
Eva Bekker
>
>But the problem is where the stress is in the word.
>
>The drink is spelt "Kaffee" and stressed on either syllable but always
>with a long "e": ['kafe:] or [ka'fe:]. In Switzerland and Austria, always
>the second syllable is stressed, in Germany, both is frequently heard. If
>someone reduces the second syllable to a schwa (pronounced ['kaf@] as if
>spelt "Kaffe"), it is a colloquial term for very thin or very bad
>coffee. Most coffee as served in the US would probably fall into this
>category, as German coffee is typically stronger - but we have no free
>refill.
In Hamburg many people use to pronounce it with a very short 'e', even
something in between an 'e' and an 'ö', but has got nothing to do with
the quality or strength of coffee. Think it's pretty plain missingsch
there. Interesting that in other places this pronounciation has a
special meaning. Didn't know that.
>
<snip>
Eva
--
off for a nice "Pott Koffie"
Sebastian Koppehel
> Am 18 Jan 2003 11:14:35 GMT schrieb Helmut Richter:
>
>>The drink is spelt "Kaffee" and stressed on either syllable but always
>>with a long "e": ['kafe:] or [ka'fe:]. In Switzerland and Austria, always
>>the second syllable is stressed, in Germany, both is frequently heard. If
>>someone reduces the second syllable to a schwa (pronounced ['kaf@] as if
>>spelt "Kaffe"), it is a colloquial term for very thin or very bad
>>coffee. Most coffee as served in the US would probably fall into this
>>category, as German coffee is typically stronger - but we have no free
>>refill.
>
> In Hamburg many people use to pronounce it with a very short 'e', even
> something in between an 'e' and an 'ö',
Also known as "Schwa" or "Murmellaut".
> but has got nothing to do with the quality or strength of coffee.
Agreed.
> Think it's pretty plain missingsch there.
No, it's used by High German speaking people.
- Sebastian
Craig Nance
Interestingly, the original lyrics I have seen to the wonderful
"schweigt Stille, Plaudert Nicht" (and hear on my recording) utilize
the word "Coffee". i.e.
Ei! wie schmeckt der Coffee süße,
Lieblicher als tausend Küsse,
Milder als Muskatenwein.
Coffee, Coffee muß ich haben,
Und wenn jemand mich will laben,
Ach, so schenkt mir Coffee ein!
Is this an anachronism?
>Joachim
Paul Schmitz-Josten
<slrnb2icj8....@lxhri01.lrz.lrz-muenchen.de>:
>It is by J.S.Bach. An the first six notes are - you guess it! :
>C-A-F-F-E-E (descending from the C).
http://www.synapses.de/clients/partitur/caffee.pdf
at least shows Karl Gottlieb Hering as the poet (?)
A piano version of the melody as a kanon is:
http://www.kon-halle.de/kramframe/mid/kaffeelied.mid
(sounding mozartesk)
http://www.newsblast.de/?handwerk/o_dorf_neue_rechte_1.php makes a point
against you:
|Der Däne Elias Chr. van Haven warnte schon 1792 vor der Wirkung neuer
|Kolonialwaren, die unausweichlich zur Verweichlichung führen müssten
|(Bodker 1998). Die Begleitmusik wurde von Mozart als Kanon publikumswirksam
|mitgeliefert: "C A F F E E trink nicht zuviel Kaffee ... schwächt die
|Nerven, macht dich blaß und krank."
http://www.sg.edu.tr/schueler/projekte/mosaik/html/turkentrank.htm
is one of the links giving the connection between Mozart and the
"Tuerkentrank-Kantate" c-a-f-f-e-e.
None of the links, though, shows a KV number which might give a conntection
to the Bach family - there is one kanon indicated "P.E. Bach" (235),
but I cannot tell if it is _this_one_.
Ciao,
Paul
Joachim Pense
> Interestingly, the original lyrics I have seen to the wonderful
> "schweigt Stille, Plaudert Nicht" (and hear on my recording) utilize
> the word "Coffee". i.e.
>
> Is this an anachronism?
>
It would be, if one used the word "Coffee" today. I think it was regular
usage at the time of Bach.
Joachim
Joachim Pense
(news:b0cj6f$ok$05$1...@news.t-online.com):
>
> None of the links, though, shows a KV number which might give a
> conntection to the Bach family - there is one kanon indicated "P.E.
> Bach" (235), but I cannot tell if it is _this_one_.
I know about J.S. Bach's son C.P.E. Bach, who was a famous composer
himself, and of a P.D.E Bach who is a Joke/Hoax figure from Stanford.
Joachim
Eva Bekker
<snip>
['kaf@]
>
>> Think it's pretty plain missingsch there.
>
>No, it's used by High German speaking people.
Is it? That's quite interesting, because I never heard it anywhere
else, only in good old Hamburg.
Learning something new every day! :)
Joachim Pense
online.com):
> Am 18 Jan 2003 17:48:40 +0100 schrieb Sebastian Koppehel:
> ['kaf@]
>>
>>> Think it's pretty plain missingsch there.
>>
>>No, it's used by High German speaking people.
>
> Is it? That's quite interesting, because I never heard it anywhere
> else, only in good old Hamburg.
> Learning something new every day! :)
>
My Grandparents from Danzig always said "'kaf@". They spoke High German
with minor regionalisms.
Joachim
Helmut Richter
> Helmut Richter schrieb am 18 Jan 2003 10:54:31 GMT in
><slrnb2icj8....@lxhri01.lrz.lrz-muenchen.de>:
>
>>It is by J.S.Bach. An the first six notes are - you guess it! :
>>C-A-F-F-E-E (descending from the C).
>
> http://www.synapses.de/clients/partitur/caffee.pdf
> at least shows Karl Gottlieb Hering as the poet (?)
In a songbook I have meanwhile found, Carl Gottlieb Hering (1766-1853) is
indicated *above* the notes, and nobody below. Other songs are always
given with the composer above the notes and the lyrics writer below. From
this evidence, I would conclude that Hering has done both. This may not be
quite cogent, but I can hardly imagine that a songbook intended for usage
at schools would not mention Mozart if he were known to be the composer.
Helmut Richter
Paul Schmitz-Josten
<slrnb2kv0c....@lxhri01.lrz.lrz-muenchen.de>:
>> http://www.synapses.de/clients/partitur/caffee.pdf
>> at least shows Karl Gottlieb Hering as the poet (?)
>
>In a songbook I have meanwhile found, Carl Gottlieb Hering (1766-1853) is
>indicated *above* the notes, and nobody below. Other songs are always
>given with the composer above the notes and the lyrics writer below. From
>this evidence, I would conclude that Hering has done both.
ACK, same in the link above. Also, there is more evidence for that in the
internet.
Ciao,
Paul
Sebastian Koppehel
> Am 18 Jan 2003 17:48:40 +0100 schrieb Sebastian Koppehel:
>
> <snip>
>
> ['kaf@]
>>
>>> Think it's pretty plain missingsch there.
>>
>>No, it's used by High German speaking people.
>
> Is it? That's quite interesting, because I never heard it anywhere
> else, only in good old Hamburg.
I can't really comment on that, but in Hamburg, High German is widely
spoken.
- Sebastian
Michael Hemmer
Maybe Helmut was mislead by the fact that that Bach is supposedly the
only composer whose name can be written using musical notation: B-A-C-H.
Michael
Helmut Richter
>>>It is by J.S.Bach. An the first six notes are - you guess it! :
>>>C-A-F-F-E-E (descending from the C).
>>
>> It is *not* by Bach. Don't confuse it with the "Kaffeekantate" "Schweigt
>> stille, plaudert nicht".
>
> Maybe Helmut was mislead by the fact that that Bach is supposedly the
> only composer whose name can be written using musical notation: B-A-C-H.
... and Bach did use the theme for a prelude and fugue (BWV 898). So I
was right that he did use letters to form a tune.
(The pun doesn't work in American musical notation: Bb-A-C-B)
Helmut Richter
andy
<joachi...@t-online.de> wrote
[
>I know about J.S. Bach's son C.P.E. Bach, who was a famous composer
>himself, and of a P.D.E Bach who is a Joke/Hoax figure from Stanford.
>
--
Andy Taylor [Editor, Austrian Philatelic Society]
For Austrian philately http://www.kitzbuhel.demon.co.uk/austamps
Joachim Pense
> In message <b0dklh$1pe$03$2...@news.t-online.com>, Joachim Pense
> <joachi...@t-online.de> wrote
> [
>>I know about J.S. Bach's son C.P.E. Bach, who was a famous composer
>>himself, and of a P.D.E Bach who is a Joke/Hoax figure from Stanford.
>>
> I think the latter was P.D.Q. Bach.
I thik your are right.
Joachim
Stephan Dörner
> Also the growing number of coffee shops (like 'Balzac'), which are
> actually called coffe shops in Germany, speaking of coffee instead of
> Kaffee may be popular among young folks.
BTW:
Most poeple I know (I'm twenty) think of drugs when they hear "coffe
shops". Illegal shops where you can buy mariuhana and hashish are
called "coffe shops" not only in the netherlands, bur also in Germany.
If you aks a young person in Germany where a "coffe shop" is he/she
will probably think you are interested in dope ...
Regards,
Stephan
--
GPG-KeyID: 0xC7019215
Hinweis: E-Mails im HTML-Format werden ungesehen gelöscht
De omnibus dubitandum - an allem ist zu zweifeln
(Karl Marx)
Eva Bekker
Universum mit dieser Weisheit:
<snip>
>BTW:
>
>Most poeple I know (I'm twenty) think of drugs when they hear "coffe
>shops". Illegal shops where you can buy mariuhana and hashish are
>called "coffe shops" not only in the netherlands, bur also in Germany.
>
>If you aks a young person in Germany where a "coffe shop" is he/she
>will probably think you are interested in dope ...
>
>Regards,
>
Yes, you 're probably right - but I also know quite a number of young
folks (in their late teens or early twenties) who also think of all
sorts of that legal 'drug' coffee when speaking of a coffee shop. :)
And (just imagining the situation) I guess, if *I* asked for a coffee
shop nobody'd even *think* I'd be possibly looking for dope :-D
Joachim Pense
2003 15:39:17 GMT):
> BTW:
>
> Most poeple I know (I'm twenty) think of drugs when they hear "coffe
> shops". Illegal shops where you can buy mariuhana and hashish are
> called "coffe shops" not only in the netherlands, bur also in Germany.
I think they are legal in the Netherlands. And "coffee shop" (in English)
means these shops in the Netherlands.
Joachim
Kai Henningsen
> Also the growing number of coffee shops (like 'Balzac'), which are
> actually called coffe shops in Germany, speaking of coffee instead of
> Kaffee may be popular among young folks. But usually - it's simply
> Kaffee.
And then there are still people who mainly connect the sound of "coffee
shop" with the Dutch establishment where one would get drugs (which is
surely spelled differently).
Kai
--
http://www.westfalen.de/private/khms/
"... by God I *KNOW* what this network is for, and you can't have it."
- Russ Allbery (r...@stanford.edu)
Michael Bednarek
Henningsen) wrote in alt.usage.german:
>no_...@pigasus-publishing.de (Eva Bekker) wrote on 18.01.03 in <b0bbtr$lph$05$2...@news.t-online.com>:
>
>> Also the growing number of coffee shops (like 'Balzac'), which are
>> actually called coffe shops in Germany, speaking of coffee instead of
>> Kaffee may be popular among young folks. But usually - it's simply
>> Kaffee.
>
>And then there are still people who mainly connect the sound of "coffee
>shop" with the Dutch establishment where one would get drugs (which is
>surely spelled differently).
>
>Kai
No. While English "coffee" is spelt Dutch "coffie", the establishments
in Amsterdam where cannabis in small quantities is sold legally are
called "Coffee Shop". I believe establishments which just sell regular
coffee/tea/cake are also called "Coffee Shop", or "Cafe"/Café".
--
Michael Bednarek, IT Manager, Tactical Global Management
Waterfront Pl, Brisbane 4000, Australia. "POST NO BILLS"
http://mcmbednarek.tripod.com/
Stephan Dörner
>> Most poeple I know (I'm twenty) think of drugs when they hear "coffe
>> shops". Illegal shops where you can buy mariuhana and hashish are
>> called "coffe shops" not only in the netherlands, bur also in
>> Germany.
>
> I think they are legal in the Netherlands
That's right - I expressed myself mistakeble (is this correct english?).
In the NL they are legal, in Germany illegal and not so numerous.
Craig Nance
<stephan...@epost.de> wrote:
>Joachim Pense schrieb in alt.usage.german:
>
>>> Most poeple I know (I'm twenty) think of drugs when they hear "coffe
>>> shops". Illegal shops where you can buy mariuhana and hashish are
>>> called "coffe shops" not only in the netherlands, bur also in
>>> Germany.
>>
>> I think they are legal in the Netherlands
>
>That's right - I expressed myself mistakeble (is this correct english?).
There is a wonderfully ambiguous English phrase that fits many
situations, including this one- "I misspoke". Its meaning ranges
from "I meant to say something different than what came out of my
mouth" to "I lied (and damn you for catching me)". :-)
Jan-Hinnerk Reichert
> Eva Bekker <no_...@pigasus-publishing.de> writes:
>
>> Am 18 Jan 2003 11:14:35 GMT schrieb Helmut Richter:
>>
>>>The drink is spelt "Kaffee" and stressed on either syllable but always
>>>with a long "e": ['kafe:] or [ka'fe:]. In Switzerland and Austria, always
>>>the second syllable is stressed, in Germany, both is frequently heard. If
>>>someone reduces the second syllable to a schwa (pronounced ['kaf@] as if
>>>spelt "Kaffe"), it is a colloquial term for very thin or very bad
>>>coffee. Most coffee as served in the US would probably fall into this
>>>category, as German coffee is typically stronger - but we have no free
>>>refill.
>>
>> In Hamburg many people use to pronounce it with a very short 'e', even
>> something in between an 'e' and an 'ö',
>
> Also known as "Schwa" or "Murmellaut".
I'm from Hamburg and have never noticed this sound before, but it seems that
it is just the way I pronounce it ;-)
>> but has got nothing to do with the quality or strength of coffee.
>
> Agreed.
Me, too.
Jan-Hinnerk
PS: Think it's time for a cup of coffee, right now...