Need help with rolling "R"
Romulus
Anyone have any tips for me?
I took five years of Spanish in high school - without ever being able to
roll my R's.
Any help would greatly be appreciated.
Thanks,
Serge
A. Woodburn
German R is pronounced in the back of the throat, sort of like
gargling. The best way to learn it is practising - I worked on it for a
couple months before I could get it to come out right (especially in
consonant clusters i.e. Kranke). I just did it by pretending that I was
gargling, but with nothing in my mouth. At first the result was too
strong, but as I got used to using that part of my throat it started
sounding more natural. The Spanish R is made with the tongue (as is the
Swiss-German R). The German one will probably be easier for you to learn
though. One thing to remember: R is not pronounced as a consonant when
it follows a vowel/at the end of a syllable (i.e. hart, der, Kirche, Tor
etc). In those cases it only shapes the pronounciation of the preceeding
vowel a bit, very similarly to the way the English pronounce R in the same
environment (car, bore, etc).
Hope that helps.
Andrea
Todd Kempf
> I'm studying German at my university, but I have a problem rolling my "R's".
> Anyone have any tips for me?
>
> I took five years of Spanish in high school - without ever being able to
> roll my R's.
>
> Any help would greatly be appreciated.
>From my experience in Germany, most Germans don't "roll" their 'R' like
Spanish, but rather in their throat (theres an oficial term for this,
but I don't remember it). It sounds more like the French 'r' than the
Spanish 'r'. However, I have heard stories, late at night by the
campfire, of regions in Germany where they DO roll their 'r's like
Spanish. But I have yet to here this myself (granted, I haven't yet
ventured very far from Baden-Wuerrtemberg).
My advice, forget the Spanish 'r' and try the throat 'r'. (purrrrrrrr
sounding almost).
Oh, that is only if it doesn't come at the end of a word, in which case
it sounds more like an "uh", for example, 'der' sounds like 'dayuh'.
Hope this helps a little.
Todd
Dr. David N. Wigtil
near the uvula) either 1) as a "g" that doesn't quite close, or 2) a voiced
German "ch" of the harsh variety (as in auch or noch). Approach #1 lets you
feel the voicing of English "g" while practicing the fricative effect of "r",
and approach #2 lets you feel the fricative effect you've doubtless practiced
often with German "ch" while simply switching on your larynx to make the
consonant voiced.
--
David N. Wigtil, wig...@his.com
E-mail: mailto:wig...@his.com Web: http://www.his.com/~wigtil
Romulus wrote:
> I'm studying German at my university, but I have a problem rolling my "R's".
> Anyone have any tips for me?
>
> I took five years of Spanish in high school - without ever being able to
> roll my R's.
>
> Any help would greatly be appreciated.
> Thanks,
> Serge
Holger Hermannsen
"Romulus" <mtol...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> I'm studying German at my university, but I have a problem rolling my "R's".
> Anyone have any tips for me?
>
> I took five years of Spanish in high school - without ever being able to
> roll my R's.
>
> Any help would greatly be appreciated.
The R is a very interesting thing... The "DUDEN, Grammatik der deutschen
Gegenwartssprache" is not my favourite reference book but it has a pretty
accurate section about German phonology and phonetics. The following
classification is partly based on what DUDEN has to say about this topic:
The prinical distinction is between "Konsonantische R" and "Vokalisches R",
the use of which depends upon the position of the R in the word. The
"Konsonantisches R" may be produced in different ways:
1. Konsonantisches R
1.1 Reibe-R (API sign is an "R" turned upside down)
It comes close to the French R but is less fricative, less like "ch".
This is what you will hear from trained speakers in the German Tages-
schau news most of the time. It is *not* trilled.
1.2 Zaepfchen-R (API/IPA sign is "R")
This is the gargling one. :)
Often used in theatre and when trying to pronounce very exactly.
A lot of German speakers won't manage to produce it at all, while
others use it all the time (Gerd Mueller-Gerbes for example).
There are two variants called:
1.2.1 Einschlaegig
1.2.1 Mehrschlaegig
With a trilling uvula, more common than 1.2.1.
1.3 Zungenspitzen-R (API sign is "r")
You can hear it for example in parts of South Germany, Switzerland
and Austria. Listen to Franz Beckenbauer. It is also used in classical
singing (opera or so). As far as I know, you can also find it in North
Germany, especially in Low German dialects. Others may want to correct
me if I am wrong there.
Again the same two variants:
1.3.1 Einschlaegig
This would be Spanish "Ca*r*los"
1.3.2 Mehrschlaegig
This would be Spanish "*R*amon", rare in German but possible. A German
teacher of mine, who was from Bavaria, used this only in words such as
"zerreissen" but preferred the 1.3.1 in other positions.
2. Vokalisches R (API sign is "a" turned upside down with a little bow)
This is the R normally used
a) after long voyels (within a syllable): "Bier", "Ohr"
Quite right to point out that this can be compared to the British
pronunciation of the R in "beer".
b) in words ending on "-er" : "Vater", "weiter"
c) in the prefixes "er-", "ver-" and "zer-": "erfassen", "Verlust"
In fact, it's a very faint "a".
Many people (including myself) also use the Vokalisches R after short
voyels, at least in informal speech, e.g. "Wuam" (Wurm) or "Heaz" (Herz).
As long as you don't overdo it, i.e. pronounce a really distinct "a",
it should sound acceptable to most native speakers. I wouldn't feel
comfortable if I had to talk like a news speaker all the time.
--- comments?
Of course there are other R variants. A rather bizarre one is probably
the R you may hear in some Westphalian dialects: A part of the tongue
touches the palate.
It's not really retroflex but still sounds a bit English to my ears. I
heard it from older people (65+) at Iserlohn (Westsauerland) but also at
Muenster/Westf. The comedian Juergen von der Lippe uses it very often in
his sketches and jokes. The German pop singer Peter Maffay also has this
strange kind of R sometimes, though, AFAIK, he's not from Westphalia. Does
anyone know?
Typical of Rhenanian speakers is the substitution of R by a "ch" sound in
some positions, e.g. "Spocht" (="Sport"). Once used to it, it's hard to
train it off again. Listen to speeches from Konrad Adenauer for example.
I'd strongly recommend to get familiar with the Vokalisches R (2) and
the Reibe-R (1.1). You don't need the "rolling" or "trilling" variants.
If you still want to learn the Spanish R, this is what a friend once
told me:
Try to say "Bedoetchen" instead of "Broetchen". Say it quickly and keep
trying. Sooner or later the Spanish R will come out.
Hope I didn't bore the group too much with all the R stuff.
Holger
Eggi
I think it's great that you can speak german!
Ciao
Romulus wrote:
> I'm studying German at my university, but I have a problem rolling my "R's".
> Anyone have any tips for me?
>
> I took five years of Spanish in high school - without ever being able to
> roll my R's.
>
> Any help would greatly be appreciated.
> Thanks,
> Serge
mike severa
"r", and i've been obsessed with trying to help people accomplish this, with
varying success.
i feel its easiest to get some kind of vibration of the tongue first, even if its
not the exact one, and then you can play with the different muscles until you get
the right part vibrating.
so try this.
i guess its easiest to start with the "t" sound. put your tongue in that position
and hold it there tightly. if you open your lips like a kind of smile, it may help
you to focus more on your tongue movements. now if you try to blow air out with
this tongue position, obviously nothing will happen because your tongue pretty much
makes a seal with the top of your mouth in this position. so the key is to blow
air out very hard but just let a little tiny bit out. there are two ways you can
do this, by letting down the edges of your tongue and keeping the tip touching the
alveolar ridge ( more or less) (this is like a bilateral fricative) or by keeping
your edges tight and letting the air flow out over the tip of your tongue. the
latter is the way to go. make sure you dont press the middle of the back of your
tongue to the roof of your mouth when you let down the tip. in fact, its sometimes
easier if you slightly if you open your mouth a little wider and curl your tongue
upwards. at first you will notice that air will come blasting out without any
vibration. this means you have to press the tip of your tongue harder or blow
harder or both. really overdo this, also try sliding your tongue tip forward or
back along the roof of your mouth just a little as you start to let air out. the
first version of the vibration will probably be a really high frequency buzzing,
and once you get that, just play with different tongue positions. i've found that
there is no really one right way to do this, it depends on the shape of your teeth,
mouth and tongue, so you really have to experiment.
good luck, i would really like to hear how it works out.
mike.
p.s. sorry for posting such a long explanation, the original post was expired in my
reader. :-)
João Luiz
But try the gutural "r" of the Hochdeutsch and try to pronounce Rochen
correctly. Somehow I had no problem with Rhytmus, but I needed an entire
night with this f***ing fish. The tongue wouldn't cooperate.
JL