Adjectives (starke und schwache)...
mrposter
understand the format for both, but I don't understand when to apply
them to a sentence. For example,
Er ist ein faluer Mann. (Couldn't you also write: Er ist ein faule
Mann.)
Why is the first correct and not the second?
Helmut Richter
> How do I know when to use strong and weak declension for adjectives. I
> understand the format for both, but I don't understand when to apply
> them to a sentence. For example,
>
> Er ist ein faluer Mann. (Couldn't you also write: Er ist ein faule
> Mann.)
The weak ending is used when *something* carrying a strong ending
precedes the adjective, so that there is (normally) one and only one
word with the strong ending. This "something" is typically an article
or a possesive pronoun. The trick is: although words like "ein",
"mein" carry information about gender and case by the fact that they
have no ending at all, they do not count as carriers of a strong
ending, so that the adjective gets a strong ending after these words.
As a result, you see a difference between the adjective endings of
indefinite and definite phrases if and only if the article is absent
or is "ein" (marked with +)
mN) + ein fauler Mann - der faule Mann
mG) eines faulen Mannes - des faulen Mannes
mD) einem faulen Mann - dem faulen Mann
mA) einen faulen Mann - den faulen Mann
fN) eine faule Frau - die faule Frau
fG) einer faulen Frau - der faulen Frau
fD) einer faulen Frau - der faulen Frau
fA) eine faule Frau - die faule Frau
nN) + ein faules Kind - das faule Kind
nG) eines faulen Kindes - des faulen Kindes
nD) einem faulen Kind - dem faulen Kind
nA) + ein faules Kind - das faule Kind
pN) + faule Leute - die faulen Leute
pG) + fauler Leute - der faulen Leute
pD) + faulen Leuten - den faulen Leuten
pA) + faule Leute - die faulen Leute
In the case pD, the two adjective endings are the same by coincidence.
In the cases not marked with +, the two endings are the same because
both are weak.
See also:
http://www.wm.edu/CAS/modlang/gasmit/grammar/adjadvs/adjendgs.htm
You have never the choice which ending to take; it is always uniquely
determined by what precedes the adjective. In some cases, however, you
have the choice whether it is the adjective or a preceding word which
will carry the strong ending:
die Betrachtung solch schwieriger Fragen
die Betrachtung solcher schwierigen Fragen
(the consideration of such difficult questions)
are both possible. The difference is that the first sentence
emphasises more that the questions have such difficulty whereas the
seconds more that such questions are difficult. In other cases, there
is no difference in meaning:
manch große Dinge
manche großen Dinge
is exactly the same, the first being more formal, archaic, or poetic
language.
Well, for this lesson, it suffices to note that "schwierig" and "groß"
get a strong ending if and only if the preceding word has none.
A more precise wording of the rules is available on
http://cornelia.siteware.ch/grammatik/deklinationadj.html .
That page contains also a link to a pdf file with exercises and
solutions: http://www.al.lu/deutsch/download/adjektiv.pdf
Helmut Richter
Yunsong Huang
news:14067ef1.03121...@posting.google.com...
Because there needs to be some tag (i.e., the suffix) providing the
information of the gender of the noun that this article (if any) and
adjective together modify. In your example, 'Mann' is masculine nominative,
so an '-er' should be present if possible. Unfortunately, 'ein' does not
contain the '-er' ending, therefore it's the adjective's task to take up
this suffix.
Another example: without article, the adjective before masculine and neuter
genitive takes '-en' ending (instead of '-es' ending, which I initially
found very puzzling), e.g., "der Geschmack _roten_ Weines". Why? Because
the '-es' information is already available in the ending of the noun,
therefore the preceding adjective is relieved from the burden of taking up
this suffix, and thus the uninformative '-en' ending for the adjective.
Andrew Davison
Yunsong Huang <yuns...@usc.edu> wrote in message
news:brqdgh$43k$1...@gist.usc.edu...
And furthermore, sometimes the weak endings are not rigorously applied, even
in "correct" German. Günter Grass' Katz und Maus has "mit beweglichem großen
Zeh", although both adjectives should have the -em ending. Hammer's German
Grammar and Usage notes this possibility, however, and doesn't altogether
condemn it:-) Another construction you see is "am fünfzehnten diesen
Monats", for example. This is wrong (Hammer agrees:-)), but understandable
if you follow the example of "am 15. letzten Monats" and "am 15. nächsten
Monats", which are both correct. Dieser isn't an adjective, of course, it's
a determiner like "der" or "mein", so it needs to carry the weak ending -es.
In general, "the more the determiner tells you, the less the adjective will
tell you" is a useful and accurate guide.
Gruß,
Andrew
Yunsong Huang
> understand the format for both, but I don't understand when to apply
> them to a sentence.
Some more irregularities (that I didn't find in Helmut's excellent links):
Foreign colors are indeclinable:
lila (lilac) and rosa (pink) are truly so, biege is used in the inflected
form, creme (cream) occurs only predicatively, and orange and oliv (olive)
are used with the suffix -farbene (coloured):
Sie trägt eine rosa Bluse und einen lila Rock.
- She wears a pink blouse and lilac skirt.
Er ging auf dem biegen Teppich.
- He walked on the biege carpet.
Sie hat ein orangefarbenes Kleid.
- She has an orange (coloured) dress.
-----------------------------
Hoch (high) when inflected looses the c:
ein hohes Gebäude - a tall building
die hohen Berge - the high hills
-----------------------------
Alle -- Demonstrative and possessive adjectives follow the same declension
as alle, but all other adjectives end in -en. This is only found in the
plural:
Nom. alle seine alten Freunde
Acc. alle seine alten Freunde
Gen. aller seiner alten Freunde
Dat. allen seinen alten Freunden
When alles is followed by and adjective as a noun, the noun has a weak
ending (i.e., like followed by der):
Wir wünschen dir alles Gute!
- We wish you all the best!
Wir werden alles Mögliche versuchen.
- We shall try everything possible.
------------------------------
Paul Schmitz-Josten
<brqhgo$6qf$1...@gist.usc.edu>:
> Er ging auf dem biegen Teppich.
> - He walked on the biege carpet.
Es ist wahrscheinlich ein beiger Teppich
and a beige carpet (acc. to Langenscheidt).
Ciao,
Paul
Rainer Kalus
>And furthermore, sometimes the weak endings are not rigorously applied, even
>in "correct" German. Günter Grass' Katz und Maus has "mit beweglichem großen
>Zeh", although both adjectives should have the -em ending.
Usually the adjectives following one declinated word ending on '-em'
change their natural ending to '-en'. Ease, or maybe carelessness, of
pronunciation has created this rule. But it's not wrong, or even more
correct, to keep all the '-em' endings.
It's more a matter of feeling for langauge than of strictly applied
rules, I'd say.
Rainer
Michael Diederich
You mean "Er ist ein fauler Mann."?
If you want to use "faule", you should say it to a woman - der faule Mann,
die faule Frau, das faule Kind.
HTH!
Best regards,
da didi
--
Als Mensch kann man vernünftig denken und trotzdem unsinnig handeln.
Yunsong Huang
news:brqkvu$5ig$03$1...@news.t-online.com...
Uh... is this simply an additional example, or is it the correction to my
example?
Danke im voraus.
Michael Diederich
>> > Er ging auf dem biegen Teppich.
>> > - He walked on the biege carpet.
>> Es ist wahrscheinlich ein beiger Teppich
>> and a beige carpet (acc. to Langenscheidt).
> Uh... is this simply an additional example, or is it the correction to my
> example?
It is a attribute - it is not a red, blue or yellow carpet, it is biege.
Best regards,
da didi
--
Gestern standen wir am Abgrund - Heute sind wir einen Schritt weiter!
(Al Bundy)
Paul Schmitz-Josten
<brs63t$i0u$1...@gist.usc.edu>:
(biege - beige)
>Uh... is this simply an additional example, or is it the correction to my
>example?
It is supposed to be a correction, because "beige" is the name of a very
light brown colour - like coffee with much milk.
OTOH, I don't know "biege".
Ciao,
Paul
Sebastian Koppehel
> Foreign colors are indeclinable:
> lila (lilac) and rosa (pink) are truly so, biege is used in the inflected
> form, creme (cream) occurs only predicatively, and orange and oliv (olive)
> are used with the suffix -farbene (coloured):
> Sie trägt eine rosa Bluse und einen lila Rock.
> - She wears a pink blouse and lilac skirt.
Or so the keepers of correct usage would have it. However, when you
actually talk to Germans, be prepaired for "eine rosane Bluse und
einen lilanen Rock". To other people this sound horrible.
- Sebastian
Michael Diederich
> Or so the keepers of correct usage would have it. However, when you
> actually talk to Germans, be prepaired for "eine rosane Bluse und
> einen lilanen Rock". To other people this sound horrible.
Rosa Bluse und lila-gefärbten Rock? Gibt es "rosane" und "lilanen" wirklich?
Best regards,
da didi
--
Alle reden vom öffentlichen Verkehr, aber keiner traut sich.
Sebastian Koppehel
Michael Diederich <dev-...@md-d.org> writes:
> begin -<[ Sebastian Koppehel * Thursday 18 December 2003 20:17 ]>-
>
>> Or so the keepers of correct usage would have it. However, when you
>> actually talk to Germans, be prepaired for "eine rosane Bluse und
>> einen lilanen Rock". To other people this sound horrible.
>
> Rosa Bluse und lila-gefärbten Rock? Gibt es "rosane" und "lilanen" wirklich?
| in diesem Sommer treibt es die Mode ziemlich bunt: rosane
| Caprihosen, orangene Jeansjacken und lilane Wickelblusen. Ebenso
| bunt treibt es hier die Grammatik, denn die genannten Adjektivformen
| sind in der Standardsprache nicht vorgesehen. Mehr dazu erfahren Sie
| im ersten Teil unseres Newsletters.
[...]
http://www.duden.de/index2.html?service/newsletterarchiv/archiv/2001/010615.html
- Sebastian
Einde O'Callaghan
> begin -<[ Yunsong Huang * Thursday 18 December 2003 13:19 ]>-
>
>
>>>>Er ging auf dem biegen Teppich.
>>>> - He walked on the biege carpet.
>>>
>>>Es ist wahrscheinlich ein beiger Teppich
>>>and a beige carpet (acc. to Langenscheidt).
>>
>>Uh... is this simply an additional example, or is it the correction to my
>>example?
>
>
> It is a attribute - it is not a red, blue or yellow carpet, it is biege.
>
Gruß, Einde O'Callaghan
Sebastian Koppehel
> The word is "beige", not "biege" - both in english and in German.
Et exactement le même en français.
- Sebastian
Michael Hemmer
Did they borrow it from English or from German?
Michael
Yunsong Huang
news:3fe2a...@news.arcor-ip.de...
Actually it's the other way around:
The etymology of 'beige'
[French, fine woolen fabric left in its natural color, from Old French bege,
perhaps from Old Italian bambagia, cotton wool, from feminine of Late Latin
bombax. See bombast.]
Michael Hemmer
> "Michael Hemmer" <mhemmer@nospam_samson.de> wrote in message
> news:3fe2a...@news.arcor-ip.de...
>>Sebastian Koppehel wrote:
>>>Einde O'Callaghan <einde.oc...@planet-interkom.de> writes:
>>>>The word is "beige", not "biege" - both in english and in German.
>>>
>>>Et exactement le même en français.
>>
>>Did they borrow it from English or from German?
>
> Actually it's the other way around:
Merci infiniment, but I knew that of course :-)
> The etymology of 'beige'
> [French, fine woolen fabric left in its natural color, from Old French bege,
> perhaps from Old Italian bambagia, cotton wool, from feminine of Late Latin
> bombax. See bombast.]
That's most interesting, since Kluge ("Etymologisches Wörterbuch der
deutschen Sprache") has quite a different explanation:
Das französische Wort bezeichnet ursprünglich gemischte Farben oder
gemischte Gewebe (Wolle und Baumwolle); deshalb vermutlich aus
lateinisch bijugus, bīgus "zusammengespannt, doppelt".
Michael
Yunsong Huang
> Yunsong Huang wrote:
> > The etymology of 'beige'
> > [French, fine woolen fabric left in its natural color, from Old French
bege,
> > perhaps from Old Italian bambagia, cotton wool, from feminine of Late
Latin
> > bombax. See bombast.]
>
> That's most interesting, since Kluge ("Etymologisches Wörterbuch der
> deutschen Sprache") has quite a different explanation:
>
> Das französische Wort bezeichnet ursprünglich gemischte Farben oder
> gemischte Gewebe (Wolle und Baumwolle); deshalb vermutlich aus
Oh well, yet one more dispute between the American [Heritage Dictionary] and
the German [Dictionary of Etymology].
andy
<mhemmer@nospam_samson.de> wrote
designers wanted a nicer word than "khaki" :)
--
Andy Taylor [Editor, Austrian Philatelic Society]
For Austrian philately http://www.kitzbuhel.demon.co.uk/austamps
Sebastian Koppehel
Well, according to everything out there, the etymology of the French
word beige is "not known". Very suspicious! It needn't necessarily be
English or German, they could also have borrowed it from Swedish
(beige), Danish (beige), Dutch (beige), Italian (beige), Spanish
(beige), or even Hungarian (bézs), Japanese (bêsho), Russian (besch),
Greek (mpez), or Turkish (bej)!
- Sebastian
andy
<ba...@bastisoft.de> wrote
- I discovered to my embarrassment - is 'ketchup' because the name came
with the product. I wonder if the colour was invented by someone who
also named it, then distributed it around the world.
Oliver Cromm
> In message <3fe2a...@news.arcor-ip.de>, Michael Hemmer
> <mhemmer@nospam_samson.de> wrote
>>Sebastian Koppehel wrote:
>>> Einde O'Callaghan <einde.oc...@planet-interkom.de> writes:
>>>>The word is "beige", not "biege" - both in english and in German.
>>> Et exactement le même en français.
>>
>>Did they borrow it from English or from German?
>>
> I'd suspect it's a French word, imported into English when clothes
> designers wanted a nicer word than "khaki" :)
/Khaki/ is, I think, a late introduction into German, I can remember seeing
it the first time and wondering at the exotic spelling; /beige/ has been
around forever. Even the pronunciation didn't change since Goethe's days,
as we can see from the famous rhyme:
beige,
du schmerzensreiche
Oliver C.
*Disclaimer:*
The contents of this posting is entirely humoristic and shall not be
construed as an endorsement by the author of a scientific theory. Liability
for damages resulting from a belief in the above preposterous claims is
limited to the reception of *one* flame, not longer than 5 lines.
andy
<scherzk...@hotmail.com> wrote
[
>/Khaki/ is, I think, a late introduction into German, I can remember seeing
>it the first time and wondering at the exotic spelling;
I believe it's Anglicised Hindi
>/beige/ has been
>around forever. Even the pronunciation didn't change since Goethe's days,
>as we can see from the famous rhyme:
>
> beige,
> du schmerzensreiche
>
Wow! In English it's pronounced as though it were French.
Paul Schmitz-Josten
<PbghD2FtAt4$Ew...@kitzbuhel.demon.co.uk>:
>>>>The word is "beige", not "biege" - both in english and in German.
>>> Et exactement le même en français.
>I'd suspect it's a French word, [...]
So does my Fremdwoerter-Duden.
"beige (fr.): sandfarben".
Ciao,
Paul
Marco Bruchmann
> the famous rhyme:
>
> beige,
> du schmerzensreiche
If that's a rhyme, your pronunciation of "beige" is wrong.
Merriam-Webster describes the pronunciation as ['bAzh] and that's more or
less the same as in German. I've never heard the word pronounced
differently.
--
-*- Marco Bruchmann -**- marco.b...@ewetel.net -*-
-*- marco.b...@informatik.uni-oldenburg.de -*-
C Engelmann
>Merriam-Webster describes the pronunciation as ['bAzh] and that's more or
>less the same as in German. I've never heard the word pronounced
>differently.
Exactly. The word has maintained its original french pronounciation.
-Carsten
Oliver Cromm
> Oliver Cromm <scherzk...@hotmail.com> wrote
>>/beige/ has been
>>around forever. Even the pronunciation didn't change since Goethe's days,
>>as we can see from the famous rhyme:
>>
>> beige,
>> du schmerzensreiche
>>
> Wow! In English it's pronounced as though it were French.
Because we are in a learner group, I added a disclaimer to mark this as a
joke. But I learned something about advertisement techniques - enough
people don't read disclaimers.
I am fascinated by the ads here in Canada (same in the US, I believe) that
read:
Only $2.95*. And you get a free** lunch.
* plus taxes, fees, extra fees, package, shipping,
turnaround cost and money collection fee, comes
out at about $ 48.
** if you buy 100 of them.
They expect people to not read the disclaimers. I also stopped reading
them, I read it just as:
Only $2.95*. And you get a free** lunch.
* this is a lie
** this is a lie
In Deutschland ist das verboten.
Oliver C.
Einde O'Callaghan
think a French origin is most probable.
Gruß, Einde O'callaghan
Einde O'Callaghan
> In message <1lhiay898i0kl$.d...@ocromm.my-fqdn.de>, Oliver Cromm
> <scherzk...@hotmail.com> wrote
> [
>
>> /Khaki/ is, I think, a late introduction into German, I can remember
>> seeing
>> it the first time and wondering at the exotic spelling;
>
>
> I believe it's Anglicised Hindi
>
>> /beige/ has been
>> around forever. Even the pronunciation didn't change since Goethe's days,
>> as we can see from the famous rhyme:
>>
>> beige,
>> du schmerzensreiche
>>
> Wow! In English it's pronounced as though it were French.
At least here in Saxony the pronunciation is the same as in french and
English. My Duden says it's also pronounced as as a 2-syllable word
where the first vowel is pronounced like a long "e" or a long "ä".
Gruß, Einde O'Callaghan
Sebastian Koppehel
> Sebastian Koppehel wrote:
>>
>> Well, according to everything out there, the etymology of the French
>> word beige is "not known". Very suspicious! It needn't necessarily be
>> English or German, they could also have borrowed it from Swedish
>> (beige), Danish (beige), Dutch (beige), Italian (beige), Spanish
>> (beige), or even Hungarian (bézs), Japanese (bęsho), Russian (besch),
>> Greek (mpez), or Turkish (bej)!
>>
> However, looking at the relationship of spelling and pronunciation I
> think a French origin is most probable.
I was joking.
- Sebastian
Sebastian Koppehel
> Am Sun, 21 Dec 2003 01:34:47 -0500 schrieb Oliver Cromm:
>
>> the famous rhyme:
>>
>> beige,
>> du schmerzensreiche
>
> If that's a rhyme, your pronunciation of "beige" is wrong.
>
> Merriam-Webster describes the pronunciation as ['bAzh] and that's more or
> less the same as in German. I've never heard the word pronounced
> differently.
Your remark is absolutely correct but nevertheless completely
gratuitous since Oliver was obviously jesting and marked his posting
as a joke more than clearly. Goethe, however, is widely known to have
rhymed "Ach neige, du Schmerzensreiche". (Bonus question: In what
work? In what part of it?) A rhyme that also only works if one of the
words is pronounced in a "wrong" way.
- Sebastian
Yunsong Huang
news:4m87sb...@bastisoft.de...
> Marco Bruchmann <jax...@ewetel.net> writes:
> [...]
> Your remark is absolutely correct but nevertheless completely
> gratuitous since Oliver was obviously jesting and marked his posting
> as a joke more than clearly. Goethe, however, is widely known to have
> rhymed "Ach neige, du Schmerzensreiche". (Bonus question: In what
> work? In what part of it?)
Goethe's Faust - Part One
Einde O'Callaghan
after getting home from a long train journey. ;-)
Gruß, Einde O'Callaghan
Einde O'Callaghan
but not when they are pronounced as in Hochdeutsch.
Gruß, Einde O'Callaghan
Henning Schlottmann
> Yunsong Huang wrote:
> > Goethe's Faust - Part One
> >
> Many rhymes in Faust work when the words are pronounced as in Sächsisch
> but not when they are pronounced as in Hochdeutsch.
Not in Sächsisch, but in Hessisch, hessian, as Johan Wolfgang v. Goethe
was born in Frankfort.
Ciao Henning
Einde O'Callaghan
- or at least so the story goes.
Many of the rhymes I'm talking about in Faust are being spoken by
Leipzigers - I doubt if they would be speaking Hessisch. ;-)
I've actually seen a performance of Faust where much of the dialogue was
spoken with a strong Saxon accent - the rhymes fitted perfectly.
Gruß, Einde
Oliver Cromm
> Henning Schlottmann wrote:
>> Einde O'Callaghan wrote:
>>>Many rhymes in Faust work when the words are pronounced as in Sächsisch
>>>but not when they are pronounced as in Hochdeutsch.
>>
>> Not in Sächsisch, but in Hessisch, hessian, as Johan Wolfgang v. Goethe
>> was born in Frankfort.
>>
> This is true, but he went to Leipzig to learn how to speak proper German
> - or at least so the story goes.
>
> Many of the rhymes I'm talking about in Faust are being spoken by
> Leipzigers - I doubt if they would be speaking Hessisch. ;-)
I'm not sure about Goethe's intentions, but I think that at the time, Saxon
was indeed still considered the best standard for German pronunciation.
> I've actually seen a performance of Faust where much of the dialogue was
> spoken with a strong Saxon accent - the rhymes fitted perfectly.
Maybe Saxon and Hessian, both middle German dialects, are similar enough to
sustain both interpretations. The rhyme I alluded to works perfect in
Hessian.
Oliver C.
Marco Bruchmann
> Marco Bruchmann <jax...@ewetel.net> writes:
[...]
> Your remark is absolutely correct but nevertheless completely
> gratuitous since Oliver was obviously jesting and marked his posting
> as a joke more than clearly. Goethe, however, is widely known to have
> rhymed "Ach neige, du Schmerzensreiche".
Hachja, und wieder mal so eine herrlich arrogante Antwort hier in aug...
Ich glaube, ihr könnt einfach nicht anders. Aber bitte, macht ruhig.
Ich werde mich wieder verziehen.
Frohes Fest!
Marco Bruchmann
> Marco Bruchmann <jax...@ewetel.net> writes:
[...]
> Your remark is absolutely correct but nevertheless completely gratuitous
> since Oliver was obviously jesting and marked his posting as a joke more
> than clearly. Goethe, however, is widely known to have rhymed "Ach
> neige, du Schmerzensreiche".
Hachja, und wieder mal so eine herrlich arrogante Antwort hier in aug...
Also, zur Klarstellung. Der Disclaimer stand unter dem Abschlußgruß,
weshalb ich ihn als Teil der Signatur wahrnahm und bestenfalls überflogen
habe. Ich kenne Goethe nicht besonders gut, weshalb sich mir der Witz --
so man es denn so nennen will -- nicht erschloß.
Was Goethe angeht, so muß ich sagen, daß ich meine Kenntnis seiner Werke
garantiert in naher Zukunft nicht erweitern werde. Mir reicht, was ich
gelesen habe. Die Inhalte waren uninteressant und der Stil ist absolut
grausam. Vielleicht finde ich in einem wesentlich späteren
Lebensabschnitt noch einmal die Muße, aber momentan, acht Jahre nach
meinem Abitur, ist die Erinnerung an die Qualen, die mir die Lektüre des
"Werther" einbrachte, noch zu lebendig. (Mir ist die Ironie dieses
Umstandes durchaus bewußt.)
Die Gruppe alt.usage.german leidet IMHO sehr unter ihrem allzu
hochtrabenden Zugang zum Gruppenthema. Trennt euch von Goethe, Schiller
und euren Grammatikbüchern, sie helfen euch nicht viel weiter, wenn es um
den tatsächlichen, aktuellen Gebrauch der Sprache geht.
Apropos gehen. Ich gehe.
Frohes Fest!
Henning Schlottmann
> Henning Schlottmann wrote:
> >
> > was born in Frankfort.
> >
> Leipzigers - I doubt if they would be speaking Hessisch. ;-)
The most famous rhyme, that works in hessian only is
Ach neige,
Du Schmerzensreiche
[Line 3587-3588]
Ciao Henning
Sebastian Koppehel
Are you sure it wouldn't work in other dialects as well, eg. Ripuarian
or Saxon dialect?
- Sebastian
Sebastian Koppehel
> "Sebastian Koppehel" <ba...@bastisoft.de> wrote in message
>> Marco Bruchmann <jax...@ewetel.net> writes:
>> [...]
>> Your remark is absolutely correct but nevertheless completely
>> gratuitous since Oliver was obviously jesting and marked his posting
>> as a joke more than clearly. Goethe, however, is widely known to have
>> rhymed "Ach neige, du Schmerzensreiche". (Bonus question: In what
>> work? In what part of it?)
>
> Goethe's Faust - Part One
Indeed - "Zwinger" (City Wall). Schmerzensreiche is German for
"Dolorosa" (as in Mater Dolorosa).
- Sebastian
Oliver Cromm
> Einde O'Callaghan wrote:
>>>
>> Many of the rhymes I'm talking about in Faust are being spoken by
>> Leipzigers - I doubt if they would be speaking Hessisch. ;-)
>
> The most famous rhyme, that works in hessian only is
>
> Ach neige,
> Du Schmerzensreiche
> [Line 3587-3588]
Ach, das ist ja interessant!
Frohe Festtage,
Oliver C.
Oliver Cromm
> Am Mon, 22 Dec 2003 18:12:36 +0100 schrieb Sebastian Koppehel:
>
>> Your remark is absolutely correct but nevertheless completely gratuitous
>> since Oliver was obviously jesting
>
> Hachja, und wieder mal so eine herrlich arrogante Antwort hier in aug...
Versuch mal alt.usage.english ... oder lieber nicht, wenn Du das schon als
arrogant empfindest. Im allerbesten Fall hätte man Dich dort noch 50
weitere Postings lang im Verein an der Nase herumgeführt.
Oliver
Sebastian Koppehel
> Am Mon, 22 Dec 2003 18:12:36 +0100 schrieb Sebastian Koppehel:
>
>> Marco Bruchmann <jax...@ewetel.net> writes:
>
> [...]
>
>> Your remark is absolutely correct but nevertheless completely gratuitous
>> since Oliver was obviously jesting and marked his posting as a joke more
>> than clearly. Goethe, however, is widely known to have rhymed "Ach
>> neige, du Schmerzensreiche".
>
> Hachja, und wieder mal so eine herrlich arrogante Antwort hier in aug...
Sprach derjenige, der kurzerhand die Aussprache eines anderen für
falsch erklärte.
> Was Goethe angeht, so muß ich sagen, daß ich meine Kenntnis seiner Werke
> garantiert in naher Zukunft nicht erweitern werde. Mir reicht, was ich
> gelesen habe. Die Inhalte waren uninteressant und der Stil ist absolut
> grausam. Vielleicht finde ich in einem wesentlich späteren
> Lebensabschnitt noch einmal die Muße, aber momentan, acht Jahre nach
> meinem Abitur, ist die Erinnerung an die Qualen, die mir die Lektüre des
> "Werther" einbrachte, noch zu lebendig. (Mir ist die Ironie dieses
> Umstandes durchaus bewußt.)
>
> Die Gruppe alt.usage.german leidet IMHO sehr unter ihrem allzu
> hochtrabenden Zugang zum Gruppenthema. Trennt euch von Goethe, Schiller
> und euren Grammatikbüchern, sie helfen euch nicht viel weiter, wenn es um
> den tatsächlichen, aktuellen Gebrauch der Sprache geht.
Aha, Goethe war ein schlechter Autor langweiliger Rentnerbücher, und
in dieser NG reden wir nur über Klassiker und Grammatik. So hab ich
das noch nicht gesehen, echt :-)
- Sebastian
Klaus Wacker
> "Andrew Davison" <dubli...@hotmail.com> schrieb:
>
>>And furthermore, sometimes the weak endings are not rigorously applied, even
>>in "correct" German. Günter Grass' Katz und Maus has "mit beweglichem großen
>>Zeh", although both adjectives should have the -em ending.
>
> Usually the adjectives following one declinated word ending on '-em'
> change their natural ending to '-en'. Ease, or maybe carelessness, of
> pronunciation has created this rule. But it's not wrong, or even more
> correct, to keep all the '-em' endings.
>
> It's more a matter of feeling for langauge than of strictly applied
> rules, I'd say.
>
My feeling for the language tells me that using two different endings
emphasizes the fact that the two adjectives are not on the same
level. Of course, two adjectives on the same level would have to be
separated by a comma. In that case, the ending -em would be obligatory
for both. In the case of "mit beweglichem großen Zeh", neither
großen nor großem sound wrong to me, but großen
sounds better.
--
Klaus Wacker wac...@Physik.Uni-Dortmund.DE
51?29'9"N 7?25'9"E http://www.physik.uni-dortmund.de/~wacker
Kai Henningsen
And you survived that while having it switched off? DB must be better than
their reputation!
Kai
--
http://www.westfalen.de/private/khms/
"... by God I *KNOW* what this network is for, and you can't have it."
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