Punctuation marks and quotation marks?
Clueless in Seattle
> 9-11-2001_~Terrorism~ or ~Religious Expression~QM [The
> QM goes outside the quotation mark in standard English
> language punctuation.
I'll be danged!
I could've sworn I learned in grade school that puncutation marks such
as periods, question and exclamation marks always went inside the
quotes.
And so for over fifty years I've been doing it that way.
Thanks for settilng me straight :)
--
Please post your reply to this newsgroup.
All emails sent to spamless_...@yahoo.com are automatically deleted as spam prevention. If you would like to email me personally, please post a request for my email address in this newsgroup.
Skitt
"Clueless in Seattle" <spamless_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3C0AEE3F...@oco.net...
> Franke wrote:
>
> > 9-11-2001_~Terrorism~ or ~Religious Expression~QM [The
> > QM goes outside the quotation mark in standard English
> > language punctuation.
>
> I'll be danged!
>
> I could've sworn I learned in grade school that puncutation marks such
> as periods, question and exclamation marks always went inside the
> quotes.
Good heavens, no! It all depends, you know.
> And so for over fifty years I've been doing it that way.
>
> Thanks for settilng me straight :)
Better late than never.
--
Skitt (in SF Bay Area) http://www.geocities.com/opus731/
I speak English well -- I learn it from a book!
-- Manuel of "Fawlty Towers" (he's from Barcelona).
Franke
Clueless in Seattle wrote:
> Franke wrote:
>
> > 9-11-2001_~Terrorism~ or ~Religious Expression~QM [The
> > QM goes outside the quotation mark in standard English
> > language punctuation.
>
> I'll be danged!
>
> I could've sworn I learned in grade school that puncutation marks such
> as periods, question and exclamation marks always went inside the
> quotes.
>
> And so for over fifty years I've been doing it that way.
You must have been absent on the day that the teacher made it clear that
a question mark went inside the quotation marks only if the quote was a
question and not if it was a quoted statement inside a question, as yours
was. In other words, "case by case". Of course, in the preceding sentence,
American usage dictates the period inside the quotation mark, but I prefer
the more sensible and logical convention followed by British English and
those who are as obsessive and compulsive about their punctuation style
as I am.
> Thanks for settilng me straight :)
Any time. We are here to do that and to heal the sick and to dislame the lame.
N.Mitchum
----
> I could've sworn I learned in grade school that puncutation marks such
> as periods, question and exclamation marks always went inside the
> quotes.
In an American school you'd have learned that periods and commas
always go inside the quotation marks. Other marks, such as
exclamation and question, go inside *only* if they are part of the
quote; otherwise they belong outside.
He said, "We went."
He said, "We went," and that was all.
He asked, "Did you go?"
Did he ask, "Did you go?"
Did he say, "We went"?
She yelled, "Yahoo!"
"Yahoo!" she yelled.
I can't believe she said "Flowers"!
----NM
Charles Riggs
wrote:
Good job, NM. The above sums up, in a short space, the answers to a
number of questions that frequently arise here and should probably be
in the FAQ. I frequently have trouble, myself, with that second one.
Would you say a comma might be used in the penultimate one?
Charles Riggs
Ross Klatte
>Date: 2001-12-04 00:00 Eastern Standard Time
>Good job, NM. The above sums up, in a short space, the answers to a
>number of questions that frequently arise here and should probably be
>in the FAQ. I frequently have trouble, myself, with that second one.
>Would you say a comma might be used in the penultimate one?
My use of quotation marks has suffered from writing computer
programs, where the rules are different.
What are the American and British rules for the semicolon?
In 1926, he wrote "Oh, Kay!"; the following year he wrote "Funny
Face."
In 1927, he wrote "Funny Face;" the previous year he had
written "Oh, Kay!"
What is the correct punctuation for the two sentences above?
Ross
http://www.geocities.com/ross_klatte/
Franke
Ross Klatte wrote:
> [...]
> My use of quotation marks has suffered from writing computer
> programs, where the rules are different.
> What are the American and British rules for the semicolon?
>
> In 1926, he wrote "Oh, Kay!"; the following year he wrote "Funny
> Face."
This is correct AmE punctuation.
> In 1927, he wrote "Funny Face;" the previous year he had
> written "Oh, Kay!"
This is incorrect AmE punctuation because the semicolon's inside the the
quotation mark.
N.Mitchum
----
> >"Yahoo!" she yelled.
> >I can't believe she said "Flowers"! [...]
>
> Would you say a comma might be used in the penultimate one?
I assume you mean a comma *in place of* the exclamation mark, and
I'd say yes, a comma could be used. But "Yahoo!" is a word that
seems to demand the exclamation (which is why I chose it).
----NM
N.Mitchum
----
> My use of quotation marks has suffered from writing computer
> programs, where the rules are different.
> What are the American and British rules for the semicolon?
>
> In 1926, he wrote "Oh, Kay!"; the following year he wrote "Funny
> Face."
> In 1927, he wrote "Funny Face;" the previous year he had
> written "Oh, Kay!"
>
> What is the correct punctuation for the two sentences above?
In your first example, the semicolon after the quotes are
problematic but perhaps defensible. I would never use such a
combination. I would make two sentences of it (he wrote "Oh,
Kay!" The following year ...) or I would reword it to avoid the
problem (he wrote "Oh, Kay!" and the next year ...).
The second example is incorrect. That semicolon definitely
belongs outside the quote.
(These are American conventions.)
----NM
Charles Riggs
wrote:
What I meant was, I thought it could be written:
"Yahoo!", she yelled.
Would you write '"I'll see you in a week," she said.'?
I get confused over the rules for quoting speech.
Charles Riggs
Gerald Smyth
[snip]
> What I meant was, I thought it could be written:
>
> "Yahoo!", she yelled.
>
> Would you write '"I'll see you in a week," she said.'?
I would write, 'Would you write, "'I'll see you in a week', she
said"?', the main additional point being the loss of the full-stop
after 'she said'. I would also write, 'Would you write, "Did she say,
'I'll see you in a week'?"?' and 'Would you write, "Did she say, 'Will
I see you in a week?'?"?'. Without question.
[snip]
Gerald Smyth
N.Mitchum
----
> >I assume you mean a comma *in place of* the exclamation mark, and
> >I'd say yes, a comma could be used. But "Yahoo!" is a word that
> >seems to demand the exclamation (which is why I chose it).
> >
>
> What I meant was, I thought it could be written:
>
> "Yahoo!", she yelled.
>
> Would you write '"I'll see you in a week," she said.'?
I'd write neither. I feel the exclamation and question marks are
quite strong enough to carry the load of a comma or period, and I
would never double them up as you've done. It looks dithery, as
if you don't know what you want, though I'm sure you'll find some
who recommend your punctuation.
----NM
Gerald Smyth
[snip]
> He said, "We went."
> He said, "We went," and that was all.
>
> He asked, "Did you go?"
> Did he ask, "Did you go?"
> Did he say, "We went"?
>
> She yelled, "Yahoo!"
> "Yahoo!" she yelled.
> I can't believe she said "Flowers"!
In a system based on that recommended in 'The King's English', these
examples would be written as follows:
He said, 'We went'.
He said, 'We went', and that was all.
He asked, 'Did you go?'.
Did he ask, 'Did you go?'?
Did he say, 'We went'?
She yelled, 'Yahoo!'.
'Yahoo!', she yelled.
I can't believe she said 'Fowlers'!
Quote-delimiting commas don't seem to be needed before a one-word
quote, do they?
Gerald Smyth
N.Mitchum
----
> In a system based on that recommended in 'The King's English', these
> examples would be written as follows:
America, however, dumped its kings a couple of years back.
Afterwards we worked out our own way of doing these things.
----NM
Dennis Brennan
Gerald Smyth <gerald...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:d52a17.01120...@posting.google.com...
> I would write, 'Would you write, "'I'll see you in a week', she
> said"?', the main additional point being the loss of the full-stop
> after 'she said'. I would also write, 'Would you write, "Did she say,
> 'I'll see you in a week'?"?' and 'Would you write, "Did she say, 'Will
> I see you in a week?'?"?'. Without question.
Can you believe the punctuation in Gerald's penultimate
sentence (particularly, the "...?'?"?'.")!?
-Dennis Brennan
Gerald Smyth
[snip]
> America, however, dumped its kings a couple of years back.
> Afterwards we worked out our own way of doing these things.
One other type occurred to me: 'Did she yell 'Yahoo!'?
How would you write that?
Gerald Smyth
Skitt
Did she yell, "Yahoo!"
From http://cctc.commnet.edu/grammar/marks/quotation.htm:
If a question ends with a quotation containing an exclamation mark, the
exclamation mark will supersede the question and suffice to end the
sentence.
N.Mitchum
-----
>
> How would you write that?
Never with the exclamation and question marks together.
Two solutions:
Did she yell "Yahoo!"
Did she yell "Yahoo"?
I'd probably go with the former, since the question is contained
within the wording of the sentence.
----NM
Gerald Smyth
> "Gerald Smyth" <gerald...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
[snip]
> > One other type occurred to me: 'Did she yell 'Yahoo!'?
> >
> > How would you write that?
>
> Did she yell, "Yahoo!"
>
> From http://ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/marks/quotation.htm [corrected]:
> If a question ends with a quotation containing an exclamation mark, the
> exclamation mark will supersede the question and suffice to end the
> sentence.
I had a look at that page but couldn't tell whether he drops the
question-mark because the exclamation-mark (in whichever position)
takes precedence or because the internal tone-mark (whichever it is)
takes precedence. In other words, I wonder how he'd he write the
alternative type:
I can't believe he asked, 'Did you go?'!
Gerald Smyth
Skitt
Good question. Makes one wonder. I would assume that the question mark
within the quote would be dropped, as what is quoted is obviously a
question. The exclamation point outside the quote has to remain, as
otherwise there is no clue that the sentence is an exclamation.
BTW, when you "corrected" the link, was it to distance the colon from the
URL? The latest OE no longer has any problems with colons or other marks
following the URL, but I guess, other newsreaders still do. Sooner or later
all newsreaders will fix that problem, I hope.
When I type the URL in my response to a post, the colon does not get
highlighted along with the URL.
Gerald Smyth
[snip]
> > I [...] couldn't tell whether he drops the question-mark because the
> > exclamation-mark (in whichever position) takes precedence or because the
> > internal tone-mark (whichever it is) takes precedence. In other words, I
> > wonder how he'd he write the alternative type:
> >
> > I can't believe he asked, 'Did you go?'!
>
> Good question. Makes one wonder. I would assume that the question mark
> within the quote would be dropped, as what is quoted is obviously a
> question. The exclamation point outside the quote has to remain, as
> otherwise there is no clue that the sentence is an exclamation.
Yes, I suspect that's what would happen. Just to carry that thought a
bit further: since most questions can be identified as such by the
form of words, they could be said not to need a [?]. But the oddness
of a question without a [?], to my eyes, is just as strong even when
there happens to be a nearby [!] or unrelated [?]. In the modified
Fowler system, tone-marks on either side of a quotation-mark would be
treated independently: 'The tone symbols should be placed before or
after the second quotation mark according as they belong to the
quotation or to the containing sentence. If both quotation and
containing sentence need a tone symbol, both should be used, with the
quotation mark between them' ('The King's English',
http://www.bartleby.com/116/406.html).
> BTW, when you "corrected" the link, was it to distance the colon from the
> URL? The latest OE no longer has any problems with colons or other marks
> following the URL, but I guess, other newsreaders still do. Sooner or later
> all newsreaders will fix that problem, I hope.
I found I couldn't access the page through the posted link, went in
through my own bookmarks, and discovered an intruding 't' in the 'ccc'
(Capital Community College?) bit. I just removed the 't' before
reposting.
Gerald Smyth