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"Hwæt!": The mysterious first word of Beowulf
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Berkeley Brett
Nov 6, 2013, 1:53:00 PM11/6/13
to
"Hwæt!": The mysterious first word of Beowulf
I hope you are all well & in good spirits.
Found this interesting piece over at the Medieval Manuscripts Blog at the British Library:
http://britishlibrary.typepad.co.uk/digitisedmanuscripts/2013/11/how-does-beowulf-begin.html
or, if that link doesn't work, this short link should:
http://is.gd/vcj5I5
=== begin quoted text ===
06 November 2013
How Does Beowulf Begin?
[Photo shown]
We always like to hear about research that touches on the British Library's collections; and here is a good example. Anglo-Saxon scholars will invariably be familiar with the opening of the epic poem Beowulf, which starts with the word "Hwæt!". You can see the word in question above (the second letter is a wynn, pronounced w-), and you can view the whole manuscript online on our Digitised Manuscripts site [ http://is.gd/3H1deg ].
This word "Hwæt" has puzzled translators for some considerable time, and it has been rendered variously as "What!" by William Morris (1895) and "So!" by Seamus Heaney (1999), among other interpretations. However, new research by George Walkden (University of Manchester) [ http://is.gd/xJY0Df ] suggests that the context of "Hwæt" has been misunderstood: instead of functioning as a command to listen (along the lines of Hey! Oi you!), Walkden proposes that it should be translated as "How", in the sense of "How we have heard of the might of kings". Dr Walkden's conclusion is based on a close study of the other uses of this word and, if correct, adds a fresh perspective to the opening lines of Beowulf. Perhaps the original audience wasn't so inattentive, after all?
For those of you interested in what the poem would have sounded like, we'd also highly recommend the version by Benjamin Bagby [video, voice with harp: http://is.gd/Y9bS0U ]. Or if you'd prefer to hear the opening lines in Hungarian (or French or Telugu), click here [http://is.gd/G5Y8dQ ]! "Listen up"" (as the Beowulf-poet apparently didn't say).
Posted by Julian Harrison at 12:01 AM
- See more at: http://britishlibrary.typepad.co.uk/digitisedmanuscripts/2013/11/how-does-beowulf-begin.html#sthash.wQJnzuV4.dpuf
=== end quoted text ===
Incidentally, here is the main webpage of the Medieval Manuscripts Blog at the British Library:
http://britishlibrary.typepad.co.uk/digitisedmanuscripts
As always, your thoughts on this are most welcome....
--
Brett (in Berkeley, California, USA)
On Twitter at:
http://twitter.com/BerkeleyBrett
(You don't have to be a Twitter user to view this stream of ideas!)
I hope you are all well & in good spirits.
Found this interesting piece over at the Medieval Manuscripts Blog at the British Library:
http://britishlibrary.typepad.co.uk/digitisedmanuscripts/2013/11/how-does-beowulf-begin.html
or, if that link doesn't work, this short link should:
http://is.gd/vcj5I5
=== begin quoted text ===
06 November 2013
How Does Beowulf Begin?
[Photo shown]
We always like to hear about research that touches on the British Library's collections; and here is a good example. Anglo-Saxon scholars will invariably be familiar with the opening of the epic poem Beowulf, which starts with the word "Hwæt!". You can see the word in question above (the second letter is a wynn, pronounced w-), and you can view the whole manuscript online on our Digitised Manuscripts site [ http://is.gd/3H1deg ].
This word "Hwæt" has puzzled translators for some considerable time, and it has been rendered variously as "What!" by William Morris (1895) and "So!" by Seamus Heaney (1999), among other interpretations. However, new research by George Walkden (University of Manchester) [ http://is.gd/xJY0Df ] suggests that the context of "Hwæt" has been misunderstood: instead of functioning as a command to listen (along the lines of Hey! Oi you!), Walkden proposes that it should be translated as "How", in the sense of "How we have heard of the might of kings". Dr Walkden's conclusion is based on a close study of the other uses of this word and, if correct, adds a fresh perspective to the opening lines of Beowulf. Perhaps the original audience wasn't so inattentive, after all?
For those of you interested in what the poem would have sounded like, we'd also highly recommend the version by Benjamin Bagby [video, voice with harp: http://is.gd/Y9bS0U ]. Or if you'd prefer to hear the opening lines in Hungarian (or French or Telugu), click here [http://is.gd/G5Y8dQ ]! "Listen up"" (as the Beowulf-poet apparently didn't say).
Posted by Julian Harrison at 12:01 AM
- See more at: http://britishlibrary.typepad.co.uk/digitisedmanuscripts/2013/11/how-does-beowulf-begin.html#sthash.wQJnzuV4.dpuf
=== end quoted text ===
Incidentally, here is the main webpage of the Medieval Manuscripts Blog at the British Library:
http://britishlibrary.typepad.co.uk/digitisedmanuscripts
As always, your thoughts on this are most welcome....
--
Brett (in Berkeley, California, USA)
On Twitter at:
http://twitter.com/BerkeleyBrett
(You don't have to be a Twitter user to view this stream of ideas!)
Berkeley Brett
Nov 6, 2013, 2:04:19 PM11/6/13
to
Addendum: these opening lines in the Independent article cited above [ http://is.gd/xJY0Df ] are worth reproducing here:
=== begin quoted text ===
It is perhaps the most important word in one of the greatest and most famous sentences in the history of the English language.
Yet for more than two centuries “hwæt” has been misrepresented as an attention-grabbing latter-day “yo!” designed to capture the interest of its intended Anglo-Saxon audience urging them to sit down and listen up to the exploits of the heroic monster-slayer Beowulf.
According to an academic at the University of Manchester, however, the accepted definition of the opening line of the epic poem – including the most recent translation by the late Seamus Heaney - has been subtly wide of the mark.
=== end quoted text ===
=== begin quoted text ===
Yet for more than two centuries “hwæt” has been misrepresented as an attention-grabbing latter-day “yo!” designed to capture the interest of its intended Anglo-Saxon audience urging them to sit down and listen up to the exploits of the heroic monster-slayer Beowulf.
According to an academic at the University of Manchester, however, the accepted definition of the opening line of the epic poem – including the most recent translation by the late Seamus Heaney - has been subtly wide of the mark.
=== end quoted text ===
John Briggs
Nov 6, 2013, 2:06:43 PM11/6/13
to
On 06/11/2013 18:53, Berkeley Brett wrote:
>
> As always, your thoughts on this are most welcome....
It got a dusty response on ANSAX-L.
>
> As always, your thoughts on this are most welcome....
--
John Briggs
Adam Funk
Nov 7, 2013, 7:25:27 AM11/7/13
to
On 2013-11-06, Berkeley Brett wrote:
> "Hwæt!": The mysterious first word of Beowulf
I like the translation as "What ho!".
> "Hwæt!": The mysterious first word of Beowulf
--
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room.
--- President Muffley
Whiskers
Nov 7, 2013, 3:50:41 PM11/7/13
to
On 2013-11-07, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
> On 2013-11-06, Berkeley Brett wrote:
>
>> "Hwæt!": The mysterious first word of Beowulf
>
> I like the translation as "What ho!".
Where did the exclamation mark come from? There isn't one in the
> On 2013-11-06, Berkeley Brett wrote:
>
>> "Hwæt!": The mysterious first word of Beowulf
>
> I like the translation as "What ho!".
British Library's ancient manuscript.
--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~
James Hogg
Nov 7, 2013, 5:13:58 PM11/7/13
to
Whiskers wrote:
> On 2013-11-07, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
>> On 2013-11-06, Berkeley Brett wrote:
>>
>>> "Hw�t!": The mysterious first word of Beowulf
> On 2013-11-07, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
>> On 2013-11-06, Berkeley Brett wrote:
>>
>> I like the translation as "What ho!".
>
> Where did the exclamation mark come from? There isn't one in the
> British Library's ancient manuscript.
Klaeber's edition has a comma after Hw�t. The commentary points out that
>
> Where did the exclamation mark come from? There isn't one in the
> British Library's ancient manuscript.
nine other Old English poems start with this word, as do several
divisions in two other poems. It's also used twice within the poem to
begin a speech.
--
James
James Silverton
Nov 7, 2013, 5:48:21 PM11/7/13
to
--
Jim Silverton (Potomac, MD)
Extraneous "not." in Reply To.
Horace LaBadie
Nov 7, 2013, 5:56:39 PM11/7/13
to
Mike L
Nov 7, 2013, 6:00:33 PM11/7/13
to
On Thu, 07 Nov 2013 23:13:58 +0100, James Hogg <Jas....@gOUTmail.com>
wrote:
A bit more twang than our lame "Well,.." I imagine each bard would
have his own intro, presumably name-checking the notables and so
forth, before launching on the real thing.
--
Mike.
wrote:
have his own intro, presumably name-checking the notables and so
forth, before launching on the real thing.
--
Mike.
Whiskers
Nov 7, 2013, 7:28:17 PM11/7/13
to
On 2013-11-07, James Hogg <Jas....@gOUTmail.com> wrote:
> Whiskers wrote:
>> On 2013-11-07, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
>>> On 2013-11-06, Berkeley Brett wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Hwæt!": The mysterious first word of Beowulf
> Whiskers wrote:
>> On 2013-11-07, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
>>> On 2013-11-06, Berkeley Brett wrote:
>>>
>>> I like the translation as "What ho!".
>>
>> Where did the exclamation mark come from? There isn't one in the
>> British Library's ancient manuscript.
>
> Klaeber's edition has a comma after Hwæt.
>>
>> Where did the exclamation mark come from? There isn't one in the
>> British Library's ancient manuscript.
>
Seems to have survived from his own 1st edition of 1922 into the latest
"4th edition" of 2008 (with thanks to
<http://www.worldcat.org/title/klaebers-beowulf-and-the-fight-at-finnsburg/oclc/184738270/viewport>
<http://preview.tinyurl.com/o9qskcd> (scroll past about 190 pages of
introduction to get to the actual text). He started working on it in
the 1890s I think, but although a long time ago now that's still a very
long time after AD 1000. I don't know where his comma or the more
popular exclamation mark first appeared, but neither is in the oldest
(and only) ancient copy - nor are the line numbers, and other features
of modern typography and punctuation.
The British Library have images of the manuscript available
<http://britishlibrary.typepad.co.uk/digitisedmanuscripts/2013/02/beowulf-online.html>
<http://preview.tinyurl.com/bd7hoc7>
and even they can't resist captioning the opening lines as
,----
| The opening words of Beowulf, beginning "Hwæt" ("Listen!"): London,
| British Library, MS Cotton Vitellius A XV, f. 132r.
`----
I can see the logic of 'counting the feet' and finding five in "what we
gardena" when the structure of the poem requires there to be four; but
it's just as easy to elide "what we" into one 'foot' as it is to remove
"what" from the first line and make it a call for attention that isn't
quite part of the poem. Or is there some sort of anathema about
polysyllabic metric feet in poems of this period? Are there no examples
of the characters "hwæt" being used to mean "what" much as we use it
now?
> The commentary points out that
> nine other Old English poems start with this word, as do several
> divisions in two other poems. It's also used twice within the poem to
> begin a speech.
much as we use it now?
I know this is an old mystery, but I would like to learn if I can!
James Hogg
Nov 8, 2013, 2:03:58 AM11/8/13
to
Whiskers wrote:
> Are there no examples of the characters "hw�t" being used to mean "what"
Hw�t wier� w�t mid drygung?
--
James
> Are there no examples of the characters "hw�t" being used to mean "what"
> much as we use it now?
There must be an Anglo-Saxon riddle along the lines of:
Hw�t wier� w�t mid drygung?
--
James
pauljk
Nov 8, 2013, 7:36:20 AM11/8/13
to
"Horace LaBadie" <hlab...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:hlabadie-6B996B...@nntp.aioe.org...
pjk
Nick Spalding
Nov 8, 2013, 10:09:03 AM11/8/13
to
Berkeley Brett wrote, in
<d45128a3-5f84-4002...@googlegroups.com>
on Wed, 6 Nov 2013 10:53:00 -0800 (PST):
> "Hw�t!": The mysterious first word of Beowulf
>
> This word "Hw�t" has puzzled translators for some considerable time, and it has been rendered variously as "What!" by William Morris (1895) and "So!" by Seamus Heaney (1999), among other interpretations. However, new research by George Walkden (University of Manchester) [ http://is.gd/xJY0Df ] suggests that the context of "Hw�t" has been misunderstood: instead of functioning as a command to listen (along the lines of Hey! Oi you!), Walkden proposes that it should be translated as "How", in the sense of "How we have heard of the might of kings". Dr Walkden's conclusion is based on a close study of the other uses of this word and, if correct, adds a fresh perspective to the opening lines of Beowulf. Perhaps the original audience wasn't so inattentive, after all?
London one) since yesterday.
--
Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE
<d45128a3-5f84-4002...@googlegroups.com>
on Wed, 6 Nov 2013 10:53:00 -0800 (PST):
> "Hw�t!": The mysterious first word of Beowulf
>
> I hope you are all well & in good spirits.
>
> Found this interesting piece over at the Medieval Manuscripts Blog at the British Library:
>
> http://britishlibrary.typepad.co.uk/digitisedmanuscripts/2013/11/how-does-beowulf-begin.html
>
> or, if that link doesn't work, this short link should:
>
> http://is.gd/vcj5I5
>
> === begin quoted text ===
>
> 06 November 2013
>
> How Does Beowulf Begin?
>
> [Photo shown]
>
> We always like to hear about research that touches on the British Library's collections; and here is a good example. Anglo-Saxon scholars will invariably be familiar with the opening of the epic poem Beowulf, which starts with the word "Hw�t!". You can see the word in question above (the second letter is a wynn, pronounced w-), and you can view the whole manuscript online on our Digitised Manuscripts site [ http://is.gd/3H1deg ].
> I hope you are all well & in good spirits.
>
> Found this interesting piece over at the Medieval Manuscripts Blog at the British Library:
>
> http://britishlibrary.typepad.co.uk/digitisedmanuscripts/2013/11/how-does-beowulf-begin.html
>
> or, if that link doesn't work, this short link should:
>
> http://is.gd/vcj5I5
>
> === begin quoted text ===
>
> 06 November 2013
>
> How Does Beowulf Begin?
>
> [Photo shown]
>
>
> This word "Hw�t" has puzzled translators for some considerable time, and it has been rendered variously as "What!" by William Morris (1895) and "So!" by Seamus Heaney (1999), among other interpretations. However, new research by George Walkden (University of Manchester) [ http://is.gd/xJY0Df ] suggests that the context of "Hw�t" has been misunderstood: instead of functioning as a command to listen (along the lines of Hey! Oi you!), Walkden proposes that it should be translated as "How", in the sense of "How we have heard of the might of kings". Dr Walkden's conclusion is based on a close study of the other uses of this word and, if correct, adds a fresh perspective to the opening lines of Beowulf. Perhaps the original audience wasn't so inattentive, after all?
>
> For those of you interested in what the poem would have sounded like, we'd also highly recommend the version by Benjamin Bagby [video, voice with harp: http://is.gd/Y9bS0U ]. Or if you'd prefer to hear the opening lines in Hungarian (or French or Telugu), click here [http://is.gd/G5Y8dQ ]! "Listen up"" (as the Beowulf-poet apparently didn't say).
>
> Posted by Julian Harrison at 12:01 AM
>
> - See more at: http://britishlibrary.typepad.co.uk/digitisedmanuscripts/2013/11/how-does-beowulf-begin.html#sthash.wQJnzuV4.dpuf
>
> === end quoted text ===
>
> Incidentally, here is the main webpage of the Medieval Manuscripts Blog at the British Library:
>
> http://britishlibrary.typepad.co.uk/digitisedmanuscripts
>
> As always, your thoughts on this are most welcome....
There is a correspondence on this subject in progress in The Times (the
> For those of you interested in what the poem would have sounded like, we'd also highly recommend the version by Benjamin Bagby [video, voice with harp: http://is.gd/Y9bS0U ]. Or if you'd prefer to hear the opening lines in Hungarian (or French or Telugu), click here [http://is.gd/G5Y8dQ ]! "Listen up"" (as the Beowulf-poet apparently didn't say).
>
> Posted by Julian Harrison at 12:01 AM
>
> - See more at: http://britishlibrary.typepad.co.uk/digitisedmanuscripts/2013/11/how-does-beowulf-begin.html#sthash.wQJnzuV4.dpuf
>
> === end quoted text ===
>
> Incidentally, here is the main webpage of the Medieval Manuscripts Blog at the British Library:
>
> http://britishlibrary.typepad.co.uk/digitisedmanuscripts
>
> As always, your thoughts on this are most welcome....
London one) since yesterday.
--
Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE
Dr Nick
Nov 8, 2013, 6:14:59 PM11/8/13
to
Mike L <n...@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
> On Thu, 07 Nov 2013 23:13:58 +0100, James Hogg <Jas....@gOUTmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>Whiskers wrote:
>>> On 2013-11-07, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
>>>> On 2013-11-06, Berkeley Brett wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "Hwæt!": The mysterious first word of Beowulf
> On Thu, 07 Nov 2013 23:13:58 +0100, James Hogg <Jas....@gOUTmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>Whiskers wrote:
>>> On 2013-11-07, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
>>>> On 2013-11-06, Berkeley Brett wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I like the translation as "What ho!".
>>>
>>> Where did the exclamation mark come from? There isn't one in the
>>> British Library's ancient manuscript.
>>
>>Klaeber's edition has a comma after Hwæt. The commentary points out that
>>>
>>> Where did the exclamation mark come from? There isn't one in the
>>> British Library's ancient manuscript.
>>
>>nine other Old English poems start with this word, as do several
>>divisions in two other poems. It's also used twice within the poem to
>>begin a speech.
>
> A bit more twang than our lame "Well,.." I imagine each bard would
> have his own intro, presumably name-checking the notables and so
> forth, before launching on the real thing.
It must mean "so", mustn't it?
>>divisions in two other poems. It's also used twice within the poem to
>>begin a speech.
>
> A bit more twang than our lame "Well,.." I imagine each bard would
> have his own intro, presumably name-checking the notables and so
> forth, before launching on the real thing.
Robin Bignall
Nov 8, 2013, 6:32:40 PM11/8/13
to
On Fri, 08 Nov 2013 15:09:03 +0000, Nick Spalding <spal...@iol.ie>
wrote:
>Berkeley Brett wrote, in
><d45128a3-5f84-4002...@googlegroups.com>
> on Wed, 6 Nov 2013 10:53:00 -0800 (PST):
>
>> "Hwæt!": The mysterious first word of Beowulf
>>
>> This word "Hwæt" has puzzled translators for some considerable time, and it has been rendered variously as "What!" by William Morris (1895) and "So!" by Seamus Heaney (1999), among other interpretations. However, new research by George Walkden (University of Manchester) [ http://is.gd/xJY0Df ] suggests that the context of "Hwæt" has been misunderstood: instead of functioning as a command to listen (along the lines of Hey! Oi you!), Walkden proposes that it should be translated as "How", in the sense of "How we have heard of the might of kings". Dr Walkden's conclusion is based on a close study of the other uses of this word and, if correct, adds a fresh perspective to the opening lines of Beowulf. Perhaps the original audience wasn't so inattentive, after all?
clearing his throat before starting.
--
Robin Bignall
Herts, England (BrE)
wrote:
>Berkeley Brett wrote, in
><d45128a3-5f84-4002...@googlegroups.com>
> on Wed, 6 Nov 2013 10:53:00 -0800 (PST):
>
>>
>> I hope you are all well & in good spirits.
>>
>> Found this interesting piece over at the Medieval Manuscripts Blog at the British Library:
>>
>> http://britishlibrary.typepad.co.uk/digitisedmanuscripts/2013/11/how-does-beowulf-begin.html
>>
>> or, if that link doesn't work, this short link should:
>>
>> http://is.gd/vcj5I5
>>
>> === begin quoted text ===
>>
>> 06 November 2013
>>
>> How Does Beowulf Begin?
>>
>> [Photo shown]
>>
>> We always like to hear about research that touches on the British Library's collections; and here is a good example. Anglo-Saxon scholars will invariably be familiar with the opening of the epic poem Beowulf, which starts with the word "Hwæt!". You can see the word in question above (the second letter is a wynn, pronounced w-), and you can view the whole manuscript online on our Digitised Manuscripts site [ http://is.gd/3H1deg ].
>> I hope you are all well & in good spirits.
>>
>> Found this interesting piece over at the Medieval Manuscripts Blog at the British Library:
>>
>> http://britishlibrary.typepad.co.uk/digitisedmanuscripts/2013/11/how-does-beowulf-begin.html
>>
>> or, if that link doesn't work, this short link should:
>>
>> http://is.gd/vcj5I5
>>
>> === begin quoted text ===
>>
>> 06 November 2013
>>
>> How Does Beowulf Begin?
>>
>> [Photo shown]
>>
>>
>> This word "Hwæt" has puzzled translators for some considerable time, and it has been rendered variously as "What!" by William Morris (1895) and "So!" by Seamus Heaney (1999), among other interpretations. However, new research by George Walkden (University of Manchester) [ http://is.gd/xJY0Df ] suggests that the context of "Hwæt" has been misunderstood: instead of functioning as a command to listen (along the lines of Hey! Oi you!), Walkden proposes that it should be translated as "How", in the sense of "How we have heard of the might of kings". Dr Walkden's conclusion is based on a close study of the other uses of this word and, if correct, adds a fresh perspective to the opening lines of Beowulf. Perhaps the original audience wasn't so inattentive, after all?
>>
>> For those of you interested in what the poem would have sounded like, we'd also highly recommend the version by Benjamin Bagby [video, voice with harp: http://is.gd/Y9bS0U ]. Or if you'd prefer to hear the opening lines in Hungarian (or French or Telugu), click here [http://is.gd/G5Y8dQ ]! "Listen up"" (as the Beowulf-poet apparently didn't say).
>>
>> Posted by Julian Harrison at 12:01 AM
>>
>> - See more at: http://britishlibrary.typepad.co.uk/digitisedmanuscripts/2013/11/how-does-beowulf-begin.html#sthash.wQJnzuV4.dpuf
>>
>> === end quoted text ===
>>
>> Incidentally, here is the main webpage of the Medieval Manuscripts Blog at the British Library:
>>
>> http://britishlibrary.typepad.co.uk/digitisedmanuscripts
>>
>> As always, your thoughts on this are most welcome....
>
>There is a correspondence on this subject in progress in The Times (the
>London one) since yesterday.
A letter today suggested that "HWAET" was just the sound of the speaker
>> For those of you interested in what the poem would have sounded like, we'd also highly recommend the version by Benjamin Bagby [video, voice with harp: http://is.gd/Y9bS0U ]. Or if you'd prefer to hear the opening lines in Hungarian (or French or Telugu), click here [http://is.gd/G5Y8dQ ]! "Listen up"" (as the Beowulf-poet apparently didn't say).
>>
>> Posted by Julian Harrison at 12:01 AM
>>
>> - See more at: http://britishlibrary.typepad.co.uk/digitisedmanuscripts/2013/11/how-does-beowulf-begin.html#sthash.wQJnzuV4.dpuf
>>
>> === end quoted text ===
>>
>> Incidentally, here is the main webpage of the Medieval Manuscripts Blog at the British Library:
>>
>> http://britishlibrary.typepad.co.uk/digitisedmanuscripts
>>
>> As always, your thoughts on this are most welcome....
>
>There is a correspondence on this subject in progress in The Times (the
>London one) since yesterday.
clearing his throat before starting.
--
Robin Bignall
Herts, England (BrE)
Peter T. Daniels
Nov 8, 2013, 11:43:36 PM11/8/13
to
On Friday, November 8, 2013 6:32:40 PM UTC-5, Robin Bignall wrote:
> >There is a correspondence on this subject in progress in The Times (the
> >London one) since yesterday.
>
> A letter today suggested that "HWAET" was just the sound of the speaker
> clearing his throat before starting.
Did it suggest why a scribe would write it down?
> >There is a correspondence on this subject in progress in The Times (the
> >London one) since yesterday.
>
> A letter today suggested that "HWAET" was just the sound of the speaker
> clearing his throat before starting.
![Peter Duncanson [BrE]'s profile photo](http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/a-/ALV-UjU1GGYFBCZgBCNB-pRgkosMu-ej0qpnECw3jc8uGYOTiF8a=s40-c)
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Nov 9, 2013, 6:15:08 AM11/9/13
to
said that she has always wondered whether '"Hwaet!" was an attempt to
phonetically render a really good clearing of the throat before
launching into the narrative'.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Adam Funk
Nov 9, 2013, 6:31:39 AM11/9/13
to
--
Specifications are for the weak & timid!
--- Klingon Programmer's Guide
Dr Nick
Nov 9, 2013, 7:17:34 AM11/9/13
to
Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> writes:
> On 2013-11-09, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
>> On Friday, November 8, 2013 6:32:40 PM UTC-5, Robin Bignall wrote:
>>
>>> >There is a correspondence on this subject in progress in The Times (the
>>> >London one) since yesterday.
>>>
>>> A letter today suggested that "HWAET" was just the sound of the speaker
>>> clearing his throat before starting.
>>
>> Did it suggest why a scribe would write it down?
>
>
> Comic effect.
Like the sneeze at the start of Háry János perhaps.
> On 2013-11-09, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
>> On Friday, November 8, 2013 6:32:40 PM UTC-5, Robin Bignall wrote:
>>
>>> >There is a correspondence on this subject in progress in The Times (the
>>> >London one) since yesterday.
>>>
>>> A letter today suggested that "HWAET" was just the sound of the speaker
>>> clearing his throat before starting.
>>
>> Did it suggest why a scribe would write it down?
>
>
> Comic effect.
CDB
Nov 9, 2013, 7:48:27 AM11/9/13
to
On 08/11/2013 2:03 AM, James Hogg wrote:
> Whiskers wrote:
>> Are there no examples of the characters "hwæt" being used to mean "what"
> Whiskers wrote:
>> much as we use it now?
> There must be an Anglo-Saxon riddle along the lines of:
> Hwæt wierþ wæt mid drygung?
> There must be an Anglo-Saxon riddle along the lines of:
Been thinkung and thinkung, but no wynne. Hwæt, then?
CDB
Nov 9, 2013, 7:53:50 AM11/9/13
to
On 09/11/2013 7:17 AM, Dr Nick wrote:
> Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> writes:
>>>> A letter today suggested that "HWAET" was just the sound of the speaker
>>>> clearing his throat before starting.
>>> Did it suggest why a scribe would write it down?
>> Comic effect.
> Like the sneeze at the start of Háry János perhaps.
Or the opposite of "whatnot" -- something big.
It makes me think of phrases like "I tell you what:".
> Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> writes:
>> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>> 2013 6:32:40 PM UTC-5, Robin Bignall wrote:
[eh wot]
>>> 2013 6:32:40 PM UTC-5, Robin Bignall wrote:
>>>> A letter today suggested that "HWAET" was just the sound of the speaker
>>>> clearing his throat before starting.
>>> Did it suggest why a scribe would write it down?
>> Comic effect.
> Like the sneeze at the start of Háry János perhaps.
It makes me think of phrases like "I tell you what:".
Peter T. Daniels
Nov 9, 2013, 8:04:35 AM11/9/13
to
Adam Funk
Nov 9, 2013, 4:16:20 PM11/9/13
to
On 2013-11-09, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Saturday, November 9, 2013 7:17:34 AM UTC-5, Dr Nick wrote:
>> Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> writes:
>> > On 2013-11-09, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> >> On Friday, November 8, 2013 6:32:40 PM UTC-5, Robin Bignall wrote:
>
>> >>> >There is a correspondence on this subject in progress in The Times (the
>> >>> >London one) since yesterday.
>>
>> >>> A letter today suggested that "HWAET" was just the sound of the speaker
>> >>> clearing his throat before starting.
>>
>> >> Did it suggest why a scribe would write it down?
>>
>> > Comic effect.
>>
>> Like the sneeze at the start of Háry János perhaps.
>
> Yeah, a regular laff riot, that Beowulf!
http://oglaf.com/beot/
> On Saturday, November 9, 2013 7:17:34 AM UTC-5, Dr Nick wrote:
>> Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> writes:
>> > On 2013-11-09, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> >> On Friday, November 8, 2013 6:32:40 PM UTC-5, Robin Bignall wrote:
>
>> >>> >There is a correspondence on this subject in progress in The Times (the
>> >>> >London one) since yesterday.
>>
>> >>> A letter today suggested that "HWAET" was just the sound of the speaker
>> >>> clearing his throat before starting.
>>
>> >> Did it suggest why a scribe would write it down?
>>
>> > Comic effect.
>>
>> Like the sneeze at the start of Háry János perhaps.
>
> Yeah, a regular laff riot, that Beowulf!
(NSFW cartoon)
--
In the 1970s, people began receiving utility bills for
-£999,999,996.32 and it became harder to sustain the
myth of the infallible electronic brain. (Verity Stob)
Mike L
Nov 9, 2013, 5:34:04 PM11/9/13
to
--
Mike.
Robert Bannister
Nov 9, 2013, 6:50:48 PM11/9/13
to
On 9/11/2013 7:15 pm, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
> There was a letter in The Times (of London) yesterday from a woman who
> said that she has always wondered whether '"Hwaet!" was an attempt to
> phonetically render a really good clearing of the throat before
> launching into the narrative'.
I can easily imagine one of the guys in a western doing a spectacular
> There was a letter in The Times (of London) yesterday from a woman who
> said that she has always wondered whether '"Hwaet!" was an attempt to
> phonetically render a really good clearing of the throat before
> launching into the narrative'.
spit into a spittoon.
--
Robert Bannister - 1940-71 SE England
1972-now W Australia
Peter T. Daniels
Nov 9, 2013, 6:52:18 PM11/9/13
to
On Saturday, November 9, 2013 4:16:20 PM UTC-5, Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2013-11-09, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Saturday, November 9, 2013 7:17:34 AM UTC-5, Dr Nick wrote:
> >> Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> writes:
> >> > On 2013-11-09, Peter T. Daniels wrote
> >> >> On Friday, November 8, 2013 6:32:40 PM UTC-5, Robin Bignall wrote:
> >> >>> >There is a correspondence on this subject in progress in The Times
> >> >>> >(the London one) since yesterday.
> >> >>> A letter today suggested that "HWAET" was just the sound of the speaker
> >> >>> clearing his throat before starting.
> >> >> Did it suggest why a scribe would write it down?
> >> > Comic effect.
> >> Like the sneeze at the start of Háry János perhaps.
> > Yeah, a regular laff riot, that Beowulf!
>
> http://oglaf.com/beot/
>
> (NSFW cartoon)
I don't know what that is, but it seems to be a Monty Python sketch with
> On 2013-11-09, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Saturday, November 9, 2013 7:17:34 AM UTC-5, Dr Nick wrote:
> >> Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> writes:
> >> > On 2013-11-09, Peter T. Daniels wrote
> >> >> On Friday, November 8, 2013 6:32:40 PM UTC-5, Robin Bignall wrote:
> >> >>> >There is a correspondence on this subject in progress in The Times
> >> >>> >(the London one) since yesterday.
> >> >>> A letter today suggested that "HWAET" was just the sound of the speaker
> >> >>> clearing his throat before starting.
> >> >> Did it suggest why a scribe would write it down?
> >> > Comic effect.
> >> Like the sneeze at the start of Háry János perhaps.
> > Yeah, a regular laff riot, that Beowulf!
>
> http://oglaf.com/beot/
>
> (NSFW cartoon)
naughty words.
Robert Bannister
Nov 9, 2013, 6:52:47 PM11/9/13
to
On 8/11/2013 8:28 am, Whiskers wrote:
> Are there no examples of the characters "hwæt" being used to mean "what"
> much as we use it now?
But meaning "what", "what!" or "what?".
> Are there no examples of the characters "hwæt" being used to mean "what"
> much as we use it now?
Adam Funk
Nov 10, 2013, 3:49:31 PM11/10/13
to
On 2013-11-09, Robert Bannister wrote:
> On 8/11/2013 8:28 am, Whiskers wrote:
>
>> Are there no examples of the characters "hwæt" being used to mean "what"
>> much as we use it now?
>
> But meaning "what", "what!" or "what?".
Easy: is it "hwæt", "hwæt!", or "hwæt?"?
> On 8/11/2013 8:28 am, Whiskers wrote:
>
>> Are there no examples of the characters "hwæt" being used to mean "what"
>> much as we use it now?
>
> But meaning "what", "what!" or "what?".
--
You're the last hope for vaudeville.
--- Groucho Marx to Alice Cooper
Mike L
Nov 10, 2013, 5:27:29 PM11/10/13
to
--
Mike.
Robert Bannister
Nov 10, 2013, 8:14:10 PM11/10/13
to
On 10/11/2013 7:52 am, Robert Bannister wrote:
> On 8/11/2013 8:28 am, Whiskers wrote:
>
>> Are there no examples of the characters "hwæt" being used to mean "what"
>> much as we use it now?
>
> But meaning "what", "what!" or "what?".
Curses. I omitted the final Question Mark.
> On 8/11/2013 8:28 am, Whiskers wrote:
>
>> Are there no examples of the characters "hwæt" being used to mean "what"
>> much as we use it now?
>
> But meaning "what", "what!" or "what?".
Robert Bannister
Nov 10, 2013, 8:15:03 PM11/10/13
to
On 11/11/2013 4:49 am, Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2013-11-09, Robert Bannister wrote:
>
>> On 8/11/2013 8:28 am, Whiskers wrote:
>>
>>> Are there no examples of the characters "hwæt" being used to mean "what"
>>> much as we use it now?
>>
>> But meaning "what", "what!" or "what?".
>
>
> Easy: is it "hwæt", "hwæt!", or "hwæt?"?
>
>
It wasn't until you spilt beer on my bench.
> On 2013-11-09, Robert Bannister wrote:
>
>> On 8/11/2013 8:28 am, Whiskers wrote:
>>
>>> Are there no examples of the characters "hwæt" being used to mean "what"
>>> much as we use it now?
>>
>> But meaning "what", "what!" or "what?".
>
>
> Easy: is it "hwæt", "hwæt!", or "hwæt?"?
>
>
fabzorba
Nov 10, 2013, 11:06:29 PM11/10/13
to
On Saturday, 9 November 2013 23:17:34 UTC+11, Dr Nick wrote:
> Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> writes: > On 2013-11-09, Peter T. Daniels wrote: > >> On Friday, November 8, 2013 6:32:40 PM UTC-5, Robin Bignall wrote: >> >>> >There is a correspondence on this subject in progress in The Times (the >>> >London one) since yesterday. >>> >>> A letter today suggested that "HWAET" was just the sound of the speaker >>> clearing his throat before starting. >> >> Did it suggest why a scribe would write it down? > > > Comic effect. Like the sneeze at the start of Háry János perhaps.
Well, there is ANOTHER version which begins with Freeiittzzrr!
> Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> writes: > On 2013-11-09, Peter T. Daniels wrote: > >> On Friday, November 8, 2013 6:32:40 PM UTC-5, Robin Bignall wrote: >> >>> >There is a correspondence on this subject in progress in The Times (the >>> >London one) since yesterday. >>> >>> A letter today suggested that "HWAET" was just the sound of the speaker >>> clearing his throat before starting. >> >> Did it suggest why a scribe would write it down? > > > Comic effect. Like the sneeze at the start of Háry János perhaps.
Most scholars assume he was not clearing his throat.
What do you think he might have been doing?
fabzorba
Nov 10, 2013, 11:21:08 PM11/10/13
to
On Sunday, 10 November 2013 10:52:47 UTC+11, Robert Bannister wrote:
> On 8/11/2013 8:28 am, Whiskers wrote: > Are there no examples of the characters "hwæt" being used to mean "what" > much as we use it now? But meaning "what", "what!" or "what?". -- Robert Bannister - 1940-71 SE England 1972-now W Australia
Tell ya what. Get up and read a poem to an audience,
> On 8/11/2013 8:28 am, Whiskers wrote: > Are there no examples of the characters "hwæt" being used to mean "what" > much as we use it now? But meaning "what", "what!" or "what?". -- Robert Bannister - 1940-71 SE England 1972-now W Australia
but afore you begin, yell WHAT! at them, or WHAT?
Why? Coz you reckon here that it made perfect sense
to do it back then. Rubbish.
It's most probably Quiet!
(and it sounds like that word, to which
it has an etmylogical connection), or
"Listen up".
It is also an aural equivalent for "Behold!"
The meaning of the word is damn obvious
and common sense should be our leader in such matters.
The trouble with these debates is that there
is an industry of thousands of academics
writing on texts which have been researched
to death.
John Briggs
Nov 11, 2013, 5:22:35 PM11/11/13
to
--
John Briggs
Peter T. Daniels
Nov 11, 2013, 11:18:51 PM11/11/13
to
pauljk
Nov 12, 2013, 7:12:20 AM11/12/13
to
"fabzorba" <myles....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:f7cae43f-e020-46f3...@googlegroups.com...
> On Sunday, 10 November 2013 10:52:47 UTC+11, Robert Bannister wrote:
>> On 8/11/2013 8:28 am, Whiskers wrote: > Are there no examples of the characters "hwæt" being used
>> to mean "what" > much as we use it now? But meaning "what", "what!" or "what?". -- Robert
>> Bannister - 1940-71 SE England 1972-now W Australia
>
> Tell ya what. Get up and read a poem to an audience,
> but afore you begin, yell WHAT! at them, or WHAT?
>
> Why? Coz you reckon here that it made perfect sense
> to do it back then. Rubbish.
>
> It's most probably Quiet!
> (and it sounds like that word, to which
> it has an etmylogical connection), or
> "Listen up".
>
> It is also an aural equivalent for "Behold!"
I have been spending a little time lately watching the Parliament
>> On 8/11/2013 8:28 am, Whiskers wrote: > Are there no examples of the characters "hwæt" being used
>> to mean "what" > much as we use it now? But meaning "what", "what!" or "what?". -- Robert
>> Bannister - 1940-71 SE England 1972-now W Australia
>
> Tell ya what. Get up and read a poem to an audience,
> but afore you begin, yell WHAT! at them, or WHAT?
>
> Why? Coz you reckon here that it made perfect sense
> to do it back then. Rubbish.
>
> It's most probably Quiet!
> (and it sounds like that word, to which
> it has an etmylogical connection), or
> "Listen up".
>
> It is also an aural equivalent for "Behold!"
TV channel. Translating "Hwæt" into the Speaker's parliamentarian
English would be "Order!"
or "Order. Order! ORDER!!!".
pjk
Adam Funk
Nov 12, 2013, 7:00:16 AM11/12/13
to
On 2013-11-12, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Monday, November 11, 2013 5:22:35 PM UTC-5, John Briggs wrote:
>> On 09/11/2013 23:52, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
>> > I don't know what that is, but it seems to be a Monty Python sketch with
>> > naughty words.
>>
>> You say that like it's a bad thing.
>
> Monty Python sketches are sacred.
"Bishop, you directed this film. Did you expect this kind of
> On Monday, November 11, 2013 5:22:35 PM UTC-5, John Briggs wrote:
>> On 09/11/2013 23:52, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
>> > I don't know what that is, but it seems to be a Monty Python sketch with
>> > naughty words.
>>
>> You say that like it's a bad thing.
>
> Monty Python sketches are sacred.
reaction?"
"Well, I certainly didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asUyK6JWt9U
James Hogg
Nov 13, 2013, 3:46:14 PM11/13/13
to
Mike L wrote:
> On Sat, 09 Nov 2013 22:34:04 +0000, Mike L <n...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 09 Nov 2013 07:48:27 -0500, CDB <belle...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 08/11/2013 2:03 AM, James Hogg wrote:
>>>> Whiskers wrote:
>>>>> Are there no examples of the characters "hw�t" being used to mean "what"
> On Sat, 09 Nov 2013 22:34:04 +0000, Mike L <n...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 09 Nov 2013 07:48:27 -0500, CDB <belle...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 08/11/2013 2:03 AM, James Hogg wrote:
>>>> Whiskers wrote:
>>>>> much as we use it now?
>>>> There must be an Anglo-Saxon riddle along the lines of:
>>>> Hw�t wier� w�t mid drygung?
>>>> There must be an Anglo-Saxon riddle along the lines of:
>>> Been thinkung and thinkung, but no wynne. Hw�t, then?
>>>
>> I don't even _know_ the OE for Martini.
>
> Hw�t, durrh! Handcl��!
>> I don't even _know_ the OE for Martini.
>
Riht!
--
James
Anton Shepelev
Jan 3, 2014, 1:48:23 PM1/3/14
to
Berkeley Brett:
> "Hwæt!": The mysterious first word of Beowulf
>
this word for "what" in his old English poems. I
encountered an example only an hour ago, while read-
ing "The History of the Hobbit" by John Rateliff,
who quotes Tolkien's "Hild Hunecan":
Heafth Hild Hunecan hwite tunecan,
ond swa read rose hfeath ridige nose;
the leng heo bideth, the laess heo wrideth;
hire tearas hate on tan blate
biernende dreasoth ond bearhtme freosath;
hwaet heo sie saga, searothancla maga.
The original manuscript is published by sections
corresponding to what would later become the chap-
ters, although no such division originally existed.
Each fragment is generously spiced with endnotes and
followed with Rateliff's "Text notes", themseves
abounding with endnotes, so I am tired of ruffling
to & fro'.
--
() ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
/\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments
> "Hwæt!": The mysterious first word of Beowulf
>
> I hope you are all well & in good spirits.
>
> Found this interesting piece over at the Medieval
> Manuscripts Blog at the British Library:
>
> http://britishlibrary.typepad.co.uk/digitisedmanuscripts/2013/11/how-does-beowulf-begin.html
>
> or, if that link doesn't work, this short link
> should:
>
> http://is.gd/vcj5I5
You might find it of interest that Tokien did use
>
> Found this interesting piece over at the Medieval
> Manuscripts Blog at the British Library:
>
> http://britishlibrary.typepad.co.uk/digitisedmanuscripts/2013/11/how-does-beowulf-begin.html
>
> or, if that link doesn't work, this short link
> should:
>
> http://is.gd/vcj5I5
this word for "what" in his old English poems. I
encountered an example only an hour ago, while read-
ing "The History of the Hobbit" by John Rateliff,
who quotes Tolkien's "Hild Hunecan":
Heafth Hild Hunecan hwite tunecan,
ond swa read rose hfeath ridige nose;
the leng heo bideth, the laess heo wrideth;
hire tearas hate on tan blate
biernende dreasoth ond bearhtme freosath;
hwaet heo sie saga, searothancla maga.
The original manuscript is published by sections
corresponding to what would later become the chap-
ters, although no such division originally existed.
Each fragment is generously spiced with endnotes and
followed with Rateliff's "Text notes", themseves
abounding with endnotes, so I am tired of ruffling
to & fro'.
--
() ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
/\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments
CDB
Jan 4, 2014, 9:12:46 AM1/4/14
to
conventional, though: "what she is, say". The mysterious use of the
word is as an exclamation or interjection, eh what?
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