The original of a poem?
Dr Peter Young
methods and citizenship laws seem to be current topics, I hope I will
be forgiven. I have asked elsewhere, and have drawn blanks.
There is a well-known poem by James Ball Naylor (1860-1945) which
goes:
King David and King Solomon
Led merry, merry lives,
With many, many lady friends
And many, many wives.
But when old age crept over them
With many, many qualms,
King Solomon wrote the Proverbs
And King David wrote the psalms.
Now, I was amazed to find in the late H.C.Robbins Landon's "Joseph
Haydn, Chronicle and Works" that, during one of Haydn's visits to
London in the 1790s, Haydn had written in one of his notebooks the
following German poem:
(apologies for the missing umlauts; I never know how these come out in
peoples' mail-readers.)
Salomon und David waren grosse Sunder,
Hatten schone weiber, machten viele kinder.
Da Sie nicht mehr konnten und kamen in das alter,
Macht der Eine Lieder, und der andere Psalter.
Roughly translated: Solomon and David were great sinners, / had
beautiful wives and made many children. / When they couldn't do it any
more and grew old, / one made songs and the other made the psalter.
Landon notes, "The play on names (Salomon = Haydn's impresario ; David
= the famous tenor, Davidde, who was always referred to as David in
England) is obvious. The poem is written down with many corrections
and improvements, which suggests that Haydn was probably the author
(or translator?)."
The similarity between this and Naylor's poem is, to me, striking,
both in its content and its form, allowing for the different
line-lengths. I can't imagine that Naylor had access to the notebooks,
which were only published in the mid-1900s, so I wonder if there is
any possible connection between the two poems. Or was the poem
composed long before Naylor, who merely put his name to it, and was
found in English by Haydn? (Incidentally, I can find very little about
Naylor.)
I know that we have many experts and also several German-speakers
here, so I wonder if anyone who reads this has any ideas about any
possible connection?
Thanks in advance,
With best wishes,
Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
James Hogg
There's an article in a Festschrift that quotes Haydn's version and
mentions Naylor's poem. All I can see is a snippet at Google Books:
"found its way in a free translation attributed to James Ball Naylor
into English folklore". It would be nice to know whether the article
explores how it "found its way".
The book is entitled "Vermittlungen: German studies at the turn of the
century: Festschrift f�r Nigel B.R. Reeves".
--
James
John Dean
>
> The similarity between this and Naylor's poem is, to me, striking,
> both in its content and its form, allowing for the different
> line-lengths. I can't imagine that Naylor had access to the notebooks,
> which were only published in the mid-1900s, so I wonder if there is
> any possible connection between the two poems.
I would agree that the similarities are such that either one derived from
the other or both derived from an earlier source.
When you say the notebooks were not published until C20, do you mean in
English or at all?
The Ox Dic of Quot says the poem was written in 1935.
In any case, Naylor may have been a German speaker who had access to some
source which quoted from the notebooks.
--
John Dean
Oxford
Dr Peter Young
> Dr Peter Young wrote:
>>
>> The similarity between this and Naylor's poem is, to me, striking,
>> both in its content and its form, allowing for the different
>> line-lengths. I can't imagine that Naylor had access to the notebooks,
>> which were only published in the mid-1900s, so I wonder if there is
>> any possible connection between the two poems.
> I would agree that the similarities are such that either one derived
> from the other or both derived from an earlier source.
Yes, see my other post of today.
> When you say the notebooks were not published until C20, do you mean
> in English or at all?
Landon published them in 1959, translated into English and with
extensive commentary. I don't have that volume (it's on-line at
http://www.archive.org/stream/collectedcorresp007831mbp/collectedcorresp007831mb
p_djvu.txt , which should be all one line), but I do have the his
Chronicle and Works, which extensively quotes from the notebooks.
I did think of contacting Professor Landon to ask him about the poem
(he had the reputation of being approachable and helpful), but I could
never find any contact details. His recent death has unfortunately put
a stop to that.
Dr Peter Young
[snip the two poems]
>> The similarity between this and Naylor's poem is, to me, striking,
>> both in its content and its form, allowing for the different
>> line-lengths. I can't imagine that Naylor had access to the
>> notebooks, which were only published in the mid-1900s, so I wonder if
>> there is any possible connection between the two poems. Or was the
>> poem composed long before Naylor, who merely put his name to it, and
>> was found in English by Haydn? (Incidentally, I can find very little
>> about Naylor.)
>>
>> I know that we have many experts and also several German-speakers
>> here, so I wonder if anyone who reads this has any ideas about any
>> possible connection?
> There's an article in a Festschrift that quotes Haydn's version and
> mentions Naylor's poem. All I can see is a snippet at Google Books:
> "found its way in a free translation attributed to James Ball Naylor
> into English folklore". It would be nice to know whether the article
> explores how it "found its way".
That's�fascinating, and tends to confirm my suspicion about Naylor's
being the originator. My inclination is to think that something like
the English version was extant at the time of Haydn's visit to London,
and that the version in the notebook was his translation. Maybe Naylor
tidied up a previous version and published it under his own name.
Incidentally, I still can't find much about Naylor; the most
informative site I can find is http://www.malta.20m.com/maltahist.html
Do any of you wise people know any more?
> The book is entitled "Vermittlungen: German studies at the turn of the
> century: Festschrift f�r Nigel B.R. Reeves".
Somehow, I don't think I'll be looking for that book!
With best wishes and thanks,
Donna Richoux
> I hope this isn't considered too off-topic here, but as banking
> methods and citizenship laws seem to be current topics, I hope I will
> be forgiven. I have asked elsewhere, and have drawn blanks.
>
> There is a well-known poem by James Ball Naylor (1860-1945) which
> goes:
>
> King David and King Solomon
> Led merry, merry lives,
> With many, many lady friends
> And many, many wives.
> But when old age crept over them
> With many, many qualms,
> King Solomon wrote the Proverbs
> And King David wrote the psalms.
The following might just be an illustration of that being well known,
but it turns up as one of the many, many verses of the comic song "The
Darkies Sunday School" (later "The Happy..." and "The Baptist..." I find
these three variations:
219. Solomon and David both led naughty lives
And flirted all the afternoon with other peoples wives;
Until in the evening conscience gave them qualms -
And one wrote the Proverbs and the other wrote the Psalms.
221. David and Solomon led most immoral lives,
They mashed about with flirty girls and other people's wives.
Late on their consciences gave them horrid qualms,
So the one wrote the Proverbs and the other wrote the Psalms.
223. King Solomon and King David lived merry, merry lives
With many, many lady friends and many, many wives
But when old age came upon them with many, many qualms
Solomon wrote the Proverbs and David wrote the Psalms
Digitrad can only date the song back to 1948, and they have another
verse with no "qualms":
King Solomon and King David,
Lived most immoral lives,
Spent their time a-chasing,
After other people's wives.
The Lord spoke unto both of them,
And it worked just like a charm,
'Cos Solomon wrote the Proverbs,
And David wrote the Psalms.
>
> Now, I was amazed to find in the late H.C.Robbins Landon's "Joseph
> Haydn, Chronicle and Works" that, during one of Haydn's visits to
> London in the 1790s, Haydn had written in one of his notebooks the
> following German poem:
[snip
>
> The similarity between this and Naylor's poem is, to me, striking,
> both in its content and its form, allowing for the different
> line-lengths. I can't imagine that Naylor had access to the notebooks,
> which were only published in the mid-1900s, so I wonder if there is
> any possible connection between the two poems. Or was the poem
> composed long before Naylor, who merely put his name to it, and was
> found in English by Haydn? (Incidentally, I can find very little about
> Naylor.)
>
> I know that we have many experts and also several German-speakers
> here, so I wonder if anyone who reads this has any ideas about any
> possible connection?
>
The other point to ponder that I found was the assertion that Naylor's
version was published in "Vagrant Verse," 1935. When I looked for the
book, I found to my surprise that there are over a dozen books with such
a title. It seems to be a two-word phrase that I never encountered,
with, I guess, the meaning of miscellaneous poems. I wonder if some of
our classically educated contributors can enlighten me. I find "vagrant
verse" in two old bits of poetry:
Yet, still I may thy charms rehearse,
With truth, and well;
And in each wild and vagrant verse,
Describe each spell.
--- The remains of Maynard Davis Richardson: with a memoir of his life
Author Maynard Davis Richardson
Compiled by William Gilmore Simms
Publisher O. A. Roorback, 1833
Far as the Pythian name and voice extend,
Or where the Sibyls hurl their vagrant verse,
Infuse each note, inspire every theme.
--- Redemption: a poem
Author John Delavan Bryant
Publisher J. Penington & son, 1859
Is "vagrant verse" perhaps a literal translation from Greek, like
"rosy-fingered dawn"? A longstanding literary form? Or is it a
particular reference to one famous line? What is this?
(Relevance being, is Naylor necessarily the *author* of everything in
such a collection?)
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
Evan Kirshenbaum
I see it (the verse, not the song) in a number of versions starting in
1899, which is consistent with the original being written by Naylor:
King Solomon and King David led very merry lives;
Amused themselves immensely with concubines and wives;
But when old age came on apace, and filled their souls with
qualms,
King Solomon wrote the Proverbs and King David wrote the Psalms.
_Proceedings of the Most Worshipful Grand
Lodge of Ancient Free and Accepted Masons
of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, for
the Year 1899_
King Solomon and King David,
Led rather naughty lives,
They enjoyed themselves exceedingly
With their concubines and wives.
But when old age came creeping on
They experienced serious qualms;
So King Solomon wrote the Proverbs,
And King David wrote the Psalms.
_Notes and Queries and Historic
Magazine_, 2/1900
Both Solomon and David lived extremely happy lives,
And enjoyed themselves immensly with their horses and their wives,
But, when their blood ran colder, they were seized with aches and
qualms,
_Then_ Solomon wrote his Proverbs, and David wrote his Psalms.
_Medical News_, 9/3/1904
Solomon and David led very merry lives,
And had a most delightful time among their many wives,
But when at last their blood grew thin,
They suffered many qualms.
Then Sol,--he wrote the Proverbs--and Dave, he wrote the Psalms.
Stanton Vaughn (ed.), _Limerick Lyrics_,
1904.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |And the wildest dreams of Kew
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 | are the facts of Khatmandhu,
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |And the crimes of Clapham
| chaste in Martaban.
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |
(650)857-7572 | Rudyard Kipling
Dr Peter Young
> Dr Peter Young <pny...@ormail.co.uk> wrote:
>> I hope this isn't considered too off-topic here, but as banking
>> methods and citizenship laws seem to be current topics, I hope I will
>> be forgiven. I have asked elsewhere, and have drawn blanks.
>>
>> There is a well-known poem by James Ball Naylor (1860-1945) which
>> goes:
>>
>> King David and King Solomon
>> Led merry, merry lives,
>> With many, many lady friends
>> And many, many wives.
>> But when old age crept over them
>> With many, many qualms,
>> King Solomon wrote the Proverbs
>> And King David wrote the psalms.
> The following might just be an illustration of that being well known,
> but it turns up as one of the many, many verses of the comic song "The
> Darkies Sunday School" (later "The Happy..." and "The Baptist..." I find
> these three variations:
[snip]
Many thanks, Donna, for this fascinating message. There are a couple
more things to ask, but I don't think I'll have time today. I shall
return to the subject!
Dr Peter Young
> Dr Peter Young <pny...@ormail.co.uk> wrote:
>> I hope this isn't considered too off-topic here, but as banking
>> methods and citizenship laws seem to be current topics, I hope I will
>> be forgiven. I have asked elsewhere, and have drawn blanks.
>>
>> There is a well-known poem by James Ball Naylor (1860-1945) which
>> goes:
>>
>> King David and King Solomon
>> Led merry, merry lives,
>> With many, many lady friends
>> And many, many wives.
>> But when old age crept over them
>> With many, many qualms,
>> King Solomon wrote the Proverbs
>> And King David wrote the psalms.
> The following might just be an illustration of that being well known,
> but it turns up as one of the many, many verses of the comic song "The
> Darkies Sunday School" (later "The Happy..." and "The Baptist..." I find
> these three variations:
[snip a lot of great interest]
> The other point to ponder that I found was the assertion that Naylor's
> version was published in "Vagrant Verse," 1935. When I looked for the
> book, I found to my surprise that there are over a dozen books with such
> a title. It seems to be a two-word phrase that I never encountered,
> with, I guess, the meaning of miscellaneous poems. I wonder if some of
> our classically educated contributors can enlighten me. I find "vagrant
> verse" in two old bits of poetry:
[snip]
> (Relevance being, is Naylor necessarily the *author* of everything in
> such a collection?)
Rather what I am beginning to think.
Now, got a bit more time than I had thought. Some while ago, I had
asked Nigel Rees (of the "Quote Unquote" radio show and newsletter)
about this, and he published the question in the newsletter, with no
response. As I now have a few more pointers to a possible solution, I
have a request to Donna: May I have your permission to send parts of
your message to Nigel, to see if this sparks any more interest in
Quote Unquote?
Donna Richoux
> On 27 Dec 2009 tr...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux) wrote:
[snip]
> > The other point to ponder that I found was the assertion that Naylor's
> > version was published in "Vagrant Verse," 1935. When I looked for the
> > book, I found to my surprise that there are over a dozen books with such
> > a title. It seems to be a two-word phrase that I never encountered,
> > with, I guess, the meaning of miscellaneous poems. I wonder if some of
> > our classically educated contributors can enlighten me. I find "vagrant
> > verse" in two old bits of poetry:
>
> [snip]
>
> > (Relevance being, is Naylor necessarily the *author* of everything in
> > such a collection?)
>
> Rather what I am beginning to think.
My very first thought from what you supplied was "Just because it was in
Haydn's notebook didn't mean he wrote it, people used to write down all
sorts of things that interested them." But you (actually the editor you
quoted) said there were multiple versions. Pity we can't see what Haydn
started with.
I also think the fact that Haydn knew people named Salomon (sp.) and
David is a bit of a red herring. Maybe it drew his attention to the
existing poem.
>
> Now, got a bit more time than I had thought. Some while ago, I had
> asked Nigel Rees (of the "Quote Unquote" radio show and newsletter)
> about this, and he published the question in the newsletter, with no
> response. As I now have a few more pointers to a possible solution, I
> have a request to Donna: May I have your permission to send parts of
> your message to Nigel, to see if this sparks any more interest in
> Quote Unquote?
>
Sure, you're welcome to pass on whatever. I think the Haydn evidence
shows that Naylor cannot be the author, but beyond that all is murky. He
could be the first known to put the English version in print.
Tracking down the history of doggerel is hard. I remember getting only
so far and nor further through the thicket of "eating peas with honey."
I didn't mention this one from Mudcat.org:
---
GIVE ME BACK MY FIVE DOLLARS
[Spoken]: Well, friends, I'm mighty sorry to tell you, but mens are
gettin' mighty sorry in my state, in Tennessee. Now I'm going to sing
you a song of a young man that's married three weeks and got a divorce
and wanted the poor old Methodist preacher to give him his five dollars
back. But you must remember King David and King Solomon lived merry,
merry lives for they had many, many wives but, when old age overtook
them, they became very calm King Solomon wrote the proverbs and David
wrote the psalms.
[snip song]
Source: transcription of Uncle Dave Macon 'Give Me Back My Five Dollars'
recorded in Charlotte, NC, on 26 January 1938 and issued as Bluebird
B8325. Reissued on Uncle Dave Macon 'Travelin' Down the Road' County
CCS-CD-115.
----
I think the many small differences between Uncle Dave Macon's version
and the one attributed to Naylor (calm/qualm, overtook/crept over, etc)
indicates this was all part of a lengthy folk process. Quotations of
published poems don't usually change that much in three years.
Dr Peter Young
> Dr Peter Young <pny...@ormail.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 27 Dec 2009 tr...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux) wrote:
> [snip]
>>> The other point to ponder that I found was the assertion that Naylor's
>>> version was published in "Vagrant Verse," 1935. When I looked for the
>>> book, I found to my surprise that there are over a dozen books with such
>>> a title. It seems to be a two-word phrase that I never encountered,
>>> with, I guess, the meaning of miscellaneous poems. I wonder if some of
>>> our classically educated contributors can enlighten me. I find "vagrant
>>> verse" in two old bits of poetry:
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>> (Relevance being, is Naylor necessarily the *author* of everything in
>>> such a collection?)
>>
>> Rather what I am beginning to think.
> My very first thought from what you supplied was "Just because it was in
> Haydn's notebook didn't mean he wrote it, people used to write down all
> sorts of things that interested them." But you (actually the editor you
> quoted) said there were multiple versions. Pity we can't see what Haydn
> started with.
Indeed a pity. I can't remember offhand where the notebooks are at
present. Also, I haven't been able to find any reference to a
facsimile edition.
> I also think the fact that Haydn knew people named Salomon (sp.) and
> David is a bit of a red herring. Maybe it drew his attention to the
> existing poem.
I'm sure that the names were a trigger for Haydn's interest in the
presumed original poem, though.
>> Now, got a bit more time than I had thought. Some while ago, I had
>> asked Nigel Rees (of the "Quote Unquote" radio show and newsletter)
>> about this, and he published the question in the newsletter, with no
>> response. As I now have a few more pointers to a possible solution, I
>> have a request to Donna: May I have your permission to send parts of
>> your message to Nigel, to see if this sparks any more interest in
>> Quote Unquote?
>>
> Sure, you're welcome to pass on whatever. I think the Haydn evidence
> shows that Naylor cannot be the author, but beyond that all is murky. He
> could be the first known to put the English version in print.
Many thanks, and I'll do that, and feed back any results here.
[snip]