Wordle weirdness today

[Adam Funk]

This morning I got the Wordle in 4 tries with a normal English
word. My wife didn't get it in 6 but it said the answer was a somewhat
obscure word in English. Her sister got the same solution that I got.

Did anyone else observe this sort of thing?



Trying to be vague but potential spoilers follow the form feed:


The two solutions had 3 letters the same in the same place, one letter
the same in a different place, and one letter completely
different.



--
So you say I got a funny face
I ain't got no worries
And I don't know why
And I don't know why

[occam]

On 15/02/2022 10:51, Adam Funk wrote:
> This morning I got the Wordle in 4 tries with a normal English
> word. My wife didn't get it in 6 but it said the answer was a somewhat
> obscure word in English. Her sister got the same solution that I got.
>
> Did anyone else observe this sort of thing?

What sort of thing? Assuming you and your sister-in-law agreed on the
correct word, and she did not think the word was obscure (it was not),
why does your wife think the word is obscure?

It could have been worse - it could have been the British spelling of
odor!

[Adam Funk]

On 2022-02-15, occam wrote:

> On 15/02/2022 10:51, Adam Funk wrote:
>> This morning I got the Wordle in 4 tries with a normal English
>> word. My wife didn't get it in 6 but it said the answer was a somewhat
>> obscure word in English. Her sister got the same solution that I got.
>>
>> Did anyone else observe this sort of thing?
>
> What sort of thing? Assuming you and your sister-in-law agreed on the
> correct word, and she did not think the word was obscure (it was not),
> why does your wife think the word is obscure?

Oops, what I wrote was unclear. SIL & I got the same answer, let's say
12345; my wife didn't solve it but the website told her today's
solution was a different word, 16325. (I've mapped the letters
arbitrarily to numbers.)

I thought everyone was supposed to get the same word on a given
day. (All 3 of us are in the same timezone.)


--
We do not debug. Our software does not coddle the weak. Bugs
are good for building character in the user.
---Klingon Programmer's Guide

[Richard Heathfield]

On 15/02/2022 11:55 am, occam wrote:
> On 15/02/2022 10:51, Adam Funk wrote:
>> This morning I got the Wordle in 4 tries with a normal English
>> word. My wife didn't get it in 6 but it said the answer was a somewhat
>> obscure word in English. Her sister got the same solution that I got.
>>
>> Did anyone else observe this sort of thing?
>
> What sort of thing? Assuming you and your sister-in-law agreed on the
> correct word, and she did not think the word was obscure (it was not),
> why does your wife think the word is obscure?
>
> It could have been worse - it could have been the British spelling of
> odor!

I see what yo did there.

And I agree that the word wasn't even remotely obscure.

Wordle 241 3/6

🟨🟨⬜⬜🟨
🟩⬜🟩🟨⬜
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

[occam]

On 15/02/2022 13:59, Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2022-02-15, occam wrote:
>
>> On 15/02/2022 10:51, Adam Funk wrote:
>>> This morning I got the Wordle in 4 tries with a normal English
>>> word. My wife didn't get it in 6 but it said the answer was a somewhat
>>> obscure word in English. Her sister got the same solution that I got.
>>>
>>> Did anyone else observe this sort of thing?
>>
>> What sort of thing? Assuming you and your sister-in-law agreed on the
>> correct word, and she did not think the word was obscure (it was not),
>> why does your wife think the word is obscure?
>
> Oops, what I wrote was unclear. SIL & I got the same answer, let's say
> 12345; my wife didn't solve it but the website told her today's
> solution was a different word, 16325. (I've mapped the letters
> arbitrarily to numbers.)
>
> I thought everyone was supposed to get the same word on a given
> day. (All 3 of us are in the same timezone.)
>
>

Could it be a cookies issue? When I go to Wordle, it shows me today's
solution (4 tries) and that there is 09:23 minutes to go to the next
word. This must be stored as a cookie? Another possibility is that your
wife's PC is set to wrong date? (I see these sometime in posted
messages, where a person's post is from the future.)

[Richard Heathfield]

Be that as it may, there are surprisingly many (263, to be precise)
Wordle pairs that meet the criteria of mapping 12345 to 16325.

I suspect, though, that the supposedly obscure word in question is:

agora (plural agorae or agoras)

A place for gathering.

A marketplace, especially in Classical Greece.

[musika]

On 15/02/2022 12:59, Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2022-02-15, occam wrote:
>
>> On 15/02/2022 10:51, Adam Funk wrote:
>>> This morning I got the Wordle in 4 tries with a normal English
>>> word. My wife didn't get it in 6 but it said the answer was a somewhat
>>> obscure word in English. Her sister got the same solution that I got.
>>>
>>> Did anyone else observe this sort of thing?
>>
>> What sort of thing? Assuming you and your sister-in-law agreed on the
>> correct word, and she did not think the word was obscure (it was not),
>> why does your wife think the word is obscure?
>
> Oops, what I wrote was unclear. SIL & I got the same answer, let's say
> 12345; my wife didn't solve it but the website told her today's
> solution was a different word, 16325. (I've mapped the letters
> arbitrarily to numbers.)
>
> I thought everyone was supposed to get the same word on a given
> day. (All 3 of us are in the same timezone.)
>

"Wordle 241 Answer

The answer for Wordle 241 on February 15th, 2022 is *****! This was
tested and confirmed on the New York Times Wordle. If you are using
another copy of the game, it is possible that the answer is *****. This
was changed in the updated version."


--
Ray
UK

[Adam Funk]

Aha, thanks!

Also found this longer article.

<https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/wordle-241-different-answers-nyt-b2015360.html>


--
Some people just have hatred built into them. I don’t know if there
is anything we can do for them... The right wingers of our country
might just have bad genetics. And I’m saying that as a transvestite.
---Eddie Izzard

[lar3ryca]

On Tuesday, February 15, 2022 at 7:41:16 AM UTC-6, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> On 15/02/2022 11:55 am, occam wrote:
> > On 15/02/2022 10:51, Adam Funk wrote:
> >> This morning I got the Wordle in 4 tries with a normal English
> >> word. My wife didn't get it in 6 but it said the answer was a somewhat
> >> obscure word in English. Her sister got the same solution that I got.
> >>
> >> Did anyone else observe this sort of thing?
> >
> > What sort of thing? Assuming you and your sister-in-law agreed on the
> > correct word, and she did not think the word was obscure (it was not),
> > why does your wife think the word is obscure?
> >
> > It could have been worse - it could have been the British spelling of
> > odor!
> I see what yo did there.
>
> And I agree that the word wasn't even remotely obscure.>

Agreed.
Wordle 241 3/6

🟩⬛⬛⬛⬛
⬛⬛🟩🟨⬛
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

I have a strange thing happening in my stats, though

Played 38
Win% 100
Cur Streak 36
Max Streak 36

I probably missed a few of the first ones I tried, so 38 and 36 could be
right, but the 100% baffles me.

[lar3ryca]

I was quite surprised to find out that the NYT paid Wardle 7 figures for
the game.

[Richard Heathfield]

On 15/02/2022 4:51 pm, lar3ryca wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 15, 2022 at 7:41:16 AM UTC-6, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>> On 15/02/2022 11:55 am, occam wrote:
>>> On 15/02/2022 10:51, Adam Funk wrote:
>>>> This morning I got the Wordle in 4 tries with a normal English
>>>> word. My wife didn't get it in 6 but it said the answer was a somewhat
>>>> obscure word in English. Her sister got the same solution that I got.
>>>>
>>>> Did anyone else observe this sort of thing?
>>>
>>> What sort of thing? Assuming you and your sister-in-law agreed on the
>>> correct word, and she did not think the word was obscure (it was not),
>>> why does your wife think the word is obscure?
>>>
>>> It could have been worse - it could have been the British spelling of
>>> odor!
>> I see what yo did there.
>>
>> And I agree that the word wasn't even remotely obscure.>
>
> Agreed.
> Wordle 241 3/6
>
> 🟩⬛⬛⬛⬛
> ⬛⬛🟩🟨⬛
> 🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩
>
> I have a strange thing happening in my stats, though
>
> Played 38
> Win% 100
> Cur Streak 36
> Max Streak 36
>
> I probably missed a few of the first ones I tried, so 38 and 36 could be
> right, but the 100% baffles me.

Someone said, I have no idea how correctly, that closing the browser
zeroes your stats.

I'd guess that shaking out your cookie crumbs is bound to do so.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Games sell a lot of newspapers. Think how much "Sudoku" could have been
sold for if it had been a protected name. I have known people who
disliked the Daily Telegraph's political position but bought it because
they liked its crossword better than they liked those in the Times and
Guardian.

--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.

[charles]

In article <j72675...@mid.individual.net>, Athel Cornish-Bowden

Indeed, in my train commuting days, I could usually manage the Telegraph
crossword on the morning journey, But that was over 25 years ago. I
realised that I coudn't stand its political stance, so we take the Times.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

[Sam Plusnet]

On 15-Feb-22 17:29, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>
> Games sell a lot of newspapers. Think how much "Sudoku" could have been
> sold for if it had been a protected name. I have known people who
> disliked the Daily Telegraph's political position but bought it because
> they liked its crossword better than they liked those in the Times and
> Guardian.

Me for example.
The other reason was because it also acted as the Engineering Trade rag.
Most decent jobs were advertised in the Telegraph.

--
Sam Plusnet

[Quinn C]

* Adam Funk:

I assumed that the obscure word was updated to a less obscure one. But
12 hours after your initial post, I still got the "hard" one of the two.

I had only one green and one yellow in my third attempt, but then
guessed right in 4th. Maybe your post set me up to look for a somewhat
obscure answer and that helped.

I actually struggled a bit when the answer was "aloft" - I wasn't
immediately sure if that's a word, so that'd be "somewhat obscure" too
me. I've only played about 10 rounds in all.

--
Oh Sam! You're so funny and insensitive! -- Cat

[Peter Moylan]

On 16/02/22 04:19, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>
> Someone said, I have no idea how correctly, that closing the browser
> zeroes your stats.
>
> I'd guess that shaking out your cookie crumbs is bound to do so.

I have my browser set to delete cookies when the browser closes. I
imagine that that is a popular choice.

Browsers can also be set to accept some but not all cookies, but it's
very likely that most browser users find that approach to be too
difficult to understand and manage.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

[Quinn C]

* Peter Moylan:

> On 16/02/22 04:19, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>>
>> Someone said, I have no idea how correctly, that closing the browser
>> zeroes your stats.
>>
>> I'd guess that shaking out your cookie crumbs is bound to do so.
>
> I have my browser set to delete cookies when the browser closes. I
> imagine that that is a popular choice.
>
> Browsers can also be set to accept some but not all cookies, but it's
> very likely that most browser users find that approach to be too
> difficult to understand and manage.

I use a plugin that deletes cookies when I leave the website (Cookie
AutoDelete). Exceptions can be set (whitelist/greylist).

--
Some things are taken away from you, some you leave behind-and
some you carry with you, world without end.
-- Robert C. Wilson, Vortex (novel), p.31

[Adam Funk]

On 2022-02-15, Adam Funk wrote:

> On 2022-02-15, occam wrote:
>
>> On 15/02/2022 10:51, Adam Funk wrote:
>>> This morning I got the Wordle in 4 tries with a normal English
>>> word. My wife didn't get it in 6 but it said the answer was a somewhat
>>> obscure word in English. Her sister got the same solution that I got.
>>>
>>> Did anyone else observe this sort of thing?
>>
>> What sort of thing? Assuming you and your sister-in-law agreed on the
>> correct word, and she did not think the word was obscure (it was not),
>> why does your wife think the word is obscure?
>
> Oops, what I wrote was unclear. SIL & I got the same answer, let's say
> 12345; my wife didn't solve it but the website told her today's
> solution was a different word, 16325. (I've mapped the letters
> arbitrarily to numbers.)
>
> I thought everyone was supposed to get the same word on a given
> day. (All 3 of us are in the same timezone.)

And today SIL & I got a new word while my wife got the word that we
had yesterday. So the algorithm seems to be in effect working through
a sequential list but at least one word has been deleted from one
version of the list, letting the following ones fall into place.


--
Our function calls do not have parameters: they have
arguments, and they always win them.
---Klingon Programmer's Guide

[Adam Funk]

On 2022-02-16, Quinn C wrote:

> * Peter Moylan:
>
>> On 16/02/22 04:19, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>>>
>>> Someone said, I have no idea how correctly, that closing the browser
>>> zeroes your stats.
>>>
>>> I'd guess that shaking out your cookie crumbs is bound to do so.
>>
>> I have my browser set to delete cookies when the browser closes. I
>> imagine that that is a popular choice.
>>
>> Browsers can also be set to accept some but not all cookies, but it's
>> very likely that most browser users find that approach to be too
>> difficult to understand and manage.
>
> I use a plugin that deletes cookies when I leave the website (Cookie
> AutoDelete). Exceptions can be set (whitelist/greylist).

That's the same one I'm using.


--
Oh let the sun beat down upon my face
With stars to fill my dream.

[Quinn C]

* Adam Funk:

Won't that mean that one of them is forever spoilered??

I guess it's just a glitch in the move to nytimes, because I got
redirected by force this afternoon.

The word was difficult for me. Even when I had three letters in the
right place in step 5, I couldn't think of anything that fits the
pattern, and had to resort to systematically go through the few
remaining options.

--
Grab your lip gloss and your pepper spray, sweetheart. Your
date's here.
-- Keith Mars

[Lewis]

The NYT has removed some words from the solution list, the first was
"agora". They have also removed quite a few words from the guesses list
in the name of PCness or something. Wench and Slave are two, from what I
read, though I have not confirmed that.

I am still playing the OG Wordle and not the NYT Wordle, so I didn't
notice for a couple of days.


--
If I had Crayons and a half a can of spam I could build *you*

[lar3ryca]

Was that Wordle 242?

Wordle 242 4/6
🟨⬛⬛⬛🟨
⬛⬛⬛⬛⬛
⬛🟨🟨🟨🟩
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

I usually get three or four letters in the first two words.
So I was just lucky with the third word.

[Snidely]

Quinn C explained on 2/15/2022 :

> I actually struggled a bit when the answer was "aloft" - I wasn't
> immediately sure if that's a word, so that'd be "somewhat obscure" too
> me.

They're just mizzen with you.

/dps

--
Who, me? And what lacuna?

[Adam Funk]

On 2022-02-17, Quinn C wrote:

> * Adam Funk:
>
>> On 2022-02-15, Adam Funk wrote:
>>
>>> On 2022-02-15, occam wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 15/02/2022 10:51, Adam Funk wrote:
>>>>> This morning I got the Wordle in 4 tries with a normal English
>>>>> word. My wife didn't get it in 6 but it said the answer was a somewhat
>>>>> obscure word in English. Her sister got the same solution that I got.
>>>>>
>>>>> Did anyone else observe this sort of thing?
>>>>
>>>> What sort of thing? Assuming you and your sister-in-law agreed on the
>>>> correct word, and she did not think the word was obscure (it was not),
>>>> why does your wife think the word is obscure?
>>>
>>> Oops, what I wrote was unclear. SIL & I got the same answer, let's say
>>> 12345; my wife didn't solve it but the website told her today's
>>> solution was a different word, 16325. (I've mapped the letters
>>> arbitrarily to numbers.)
>>>
>>> I thought everyone was supposed to get the same word on a given
>>> day. (All 3 of us are in the same timezone.)
>>
>> And today SIL & I got a new word while my wife got the word that we
>> had yesterday. So the algorithm seems to be in effect working through
>> a sequential list but at least one word has been deleted from one
>> version of the list, letting the following ones fall into place.
>
> Won't that mean that one of them is forever spoilered??

I think so.

> I guess it's just a glitch in the move to nytimes, because I got
> redirected by force this afternoon.
>
> The word was difficult for me. Even when I had three letters in the
> right place in step 5, I couldn't think of anything that fits the
> pattern, and had to resort to systematically go through the few
> remaining options.
>

--

Apparently I lack some particular perversion which today's
employer is seeking. ---Ignatius J Reilly

[Adam Funk]

On 2022-02-17, Lewis wrote:

> In message <h5vvdi-...@news.ducksburg.com> Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
>> On 2022-02-15, Adam Funk wrote:
>
>>> On 2022-02-15, occam wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 15/02/2022 10:51, Adam Funk wrote:
>>>>> This morning I got the Wordle in 4 tries with a normal English
>>>>> word. My wife didn't get it in 6 but it said the answer was a somewhat
>>>>> obscure word in English. Her sister got the same solution that I got.
>>>>>
>>>>> Did anyone else observe this sort of thing?
>>>>
>>>> What sort of thing? Assuming you and your sister-in-law agreed on the
>>>> correct word, and she did not think the word was obscure (it was not),
>>>> why does your wife think the word is obscure?
>>>
>>> Oops, what I wrote was unclear. SIL & I got the same answer, let's say
>>> 12345; my wife didn't solve it but the website told her today's
>>> solution was a different word, 16325. (I've mapped the letters
>>> arbitrarily to numbers.)
>>>
>>> I thought everyone was supposed to get the same word on a given
>>> day. (All 3 of us are in the same timezone.)
>
>> And today SIL & I got a new word while my wife got the word that we
>> had yesterday. So the algorithm seems to be in effect working through
>> a sequential list but at least one word has been deleted from one
>> version of the list, letting the following ones fall into place.
>
> The NYT has removed some words from the solution list, the first was
> "agora".

That's the one that we noticed (& which started this thread).

> They have also removed quite a few words from the guesses list
> in the name of PCness or something. Wench and Slave are two, from what I
> read, though I have not confirmed that.

Interesting and/or weird

> I am still playing the OG Wordle and not the NYT Wordle, so I didn't
> notice for a couple of days.

The web page on my phone got redirected at some point (before the
agoraphobic incident) to the NYT version. I'm not sure why that
happened to only some of us.


--
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, the freaks said,
man, those cats can really swing!

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 7:00:08 AM UTC-5, Adam Funk wrote:

> On 2022-02-17, Lewis wrote:

> > The NYT has removed some words from the solution list, the first was
> > "agora".
> That's the one that we noticed (& which started this thread).

Both AGORA nd ALOFT are "bog-standard" in crossword puzzles,
and not just NYT ones, suggesting that this game some of you are
obsessed with is intended for people for whom the Monday Puzzle
is too challenging.

Does the "Wordle editor" report to Will Shortz, or to someone else?

[Adam Funk]

On 2022-02-17, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 7:00:08 AM UTC-5, Adam Funk wrote:
>> On 2022-02-17, Lewis wrote:
>
>> > The NYT has removed some words from the solution list, the first was
>> > "agora".
>> That's the one that we noticed (& which started this thread).
>
> Both AGORA nd ALOFT are "bog-standard" in crossword puzzles,
> and not just NYT ones, suggesting that this game some of you are
> obsessed with is intended for people for whom the Monday Puzzle
> is too challenging.

I have come across complaints that it's being dumbed down now that an
American publisher owns it!

> Does the "Wordle editor" report to Will Shortz, or to someone else?

AFAICT all the NYT has done is put their logo on the page & delete
some words from the list.


--
World War III has been happening for years now. Everyone’s
just too busy watching the commercials to notice.
--Jerry Cornelius

[Lewis]

It happened to everyone.

I kept a copy of the original code and run it on my Synology each day
shortly after midnight UTC+14, or when I first wake up since I am often
asleep at 00:00 UTC+14.

Not everyone saw the initial change because browsers tend to cache
things like scripts, so some people;'s browsers did not refresh the
page when the word list changed.

--
May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house.

[Quinn C]

* Peter T. Daniels:

> On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 7:00:08 AM UTC-5, Adam Funk wrote:
>> On 2022-02-17, Lewis wrote:
>
>>> The NYT has removed some words from the solution list, the first was
>>> "agora".
>> That's the one that we noticed (& which started this thread).
>
> Both AGORA nd ALOFT are "bog-standard" in crossword puzzles,
> and not just NYT ones, suggesting that this game some of you are
> obsessed with is intended for people for whom the Monday Puzzle
> is too challenging.

Yes, it's a very "accessible" game. It's not supposed to take a lot of
time or effort. The original word list was reviewed by the programmer's
girlfriend, not some professional, because she was the target audience.

The New York Times wasn't the most obvious place to pick it up.

> Does the "Wordle editor" report to Will Shortz, or to someone else?

I just heard an interview with Everdeen Mason, the editorial director
for games at the NYT. That would probably be the person to report to
directly. Will Shortz will take the input of editors like her.

Her specific mission is to increase diversity in the game section, both
in the people contributing and in the contents. She'd like to see new
clues that are "not rivers in Europe" (but, say, Latin American dishes.)

A tweet of hers yesterday says "I got bad news for you all we haven't
really done any editorial work on Wordle".

--
...an explanatory principle - like "gravity" or "instinct" -
really explains nothing. It's a sort of conventional agreement
between scientists to stop trying to explain things at a
certain point. -- Gregory Bateson

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 2:04:37 PM UTC-5, Quinn C wrote:
> * Peter T. Daniels:
> > On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 7:00:08 AM UTC-5, Adam Funk wrote:
> >> On 2022-02-17, Lewis wrote:

> >>> The NYT has removed some words from the solution list, the first was
> >>> "agora".
> >> That's the one that we noticed (& which started this thread).
> > Both AGORA nd ALOFT are "bog-standard" in crossword puzzles,
> > and not just NYT ones, suggesting that this game some of you are
> > obsessed with is intended for people for whom the Monday Puzzle
> > is too challenging.
>
> Yes, it's a very "accessible" game. It's not supposed to take a lot of
> time or effort. The original word list was reviewed by the programmer's
> girlfriend, not some professional, because she was the target audience.
>
> The New York Times wasn't the most obvious place to pick it up.
> > Does the "Wordle editor" report to Will Shortz, or to someone else?
> I just heard an interview with Everdeen Mason, the editorial director
> for games at the NYT. That would probably be the person to report to
> directly. Will Shortz will take the input of editors like her.
>
> Her specific mission is to increase diversity in the game section, both
> in the people contributing and in the contents. She'd like to see new
> clues that are "not rivers in Europe" (but, say, Latin American dishes.)

Sheesh. That was Shortz's achievement, what, 30-some years ago when
he took over from Maleska. Oh, hey, he's 8 1/2 months younger than me
and was at NPR before the NYT.

[lar3ryca]

Geeze! I don't think I have ever even seen a NYT crossword puzzle, let
alone solved one, and I have only ever seen the name Will Shortz here,
in this thread.

So I was looking at the beginning of a movie to see if I might want to
watch it, and at about 8:33, I see a crossword puzzle, and at the top of
it, I see "Edited by Will Shortz".

Things like this really make me wonder.

Recently, I see clues and questions on Jeopardy that make it look like
someone making up the questions is monitoring aue.

Just happened this evening, with the "Proof of the pudding" clue.

[Tony Cooper]

I am watching the Netflix "Inventing Anna" limited series. Much of it
takes place in NYC. I fully expect to see a scene in which she's
either in or walking by the Carnegie Deli.

I was able to try one of their pastrami sandwiches (but not able to
finish it) on a visit several years ago. The Carnegie Deli - on 7th
Avenue between 54th & 55th Street - closed in 2016. I don't know how
the staff or customers pronounced "Carnegie".



--

Tony Cooper Orlando Florida

[Adam Funk]

Yup, that explains it: she had left the page open on her
tablet.


--
We do not debug. Our software does not coddle the weak. Bugs
are good for building character in the user.
---Klingon Programmer's Guide

[Adam Funk]

You might like Miller in _Repo Man_.

> Recently, I see clues and questions on Jeopardy that make it look like
> someone making up the questions is monitoring aue.
>
> Just happened this evening, with the "Proof of the pudding" clue.

--
Unit tests are like the boy who cried wolf.

[CDB]

On 2/17/2022 11:18 PM, lar3ryca wrote:

> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> Quinn C wrote:
>>> * Peter T. Daniels:

Which none of the children had a clue about.

[Quinn C]

* Peter T. Daniels:

> On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 2:04:37 PM UTC-5, Quinn C wrote:
>> * Peter T. Daniels:
>>> On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 7:00:08 AM UTC-5, Adam Funk wrote:
>>>> On 2022-02-17, Lewis wrote:
>
>>>>> The NYT has removed some words from the solution list, the first was
>>>>> "agora".
>>>> That's the one that we noticed (& which started this thread).
>>> Both AGORA nd ALOFT are "bog-standard" in crossword puzzles,
>>> and not just NYT ones, suggesting that this game some of you are
>>> obsessed with is intended for people for whom the Monday Puzzle
>>> is too challenging.
>>
>> Yes, it's a very "accessible" game. It's not supposed to take a lot of
>> time or effort. The original word list was reviewed by the programmer's
>> girlfriend, not some professional, because she was the target audience.
>>
>> The New York Times wasn't the most obvious place to pick it up.
>>> Does the "Wordle editor" report to Will Shortz, or to someone else?
>> I just heard an interview with Everdeen Mason, the editorial director
>> for games at the NYT.

On the podcast "Spectacular Vernacular", btw.

>> That would probably be the person to report to
>> directly. Will Shortz will take the input of editors like her.
>>
>> Her specific mission is to increase diversity in the game section, both
>> in the people contributing and in the contents. She'd like to see new
>> clues that are "not rivers in Europe" (but, say, Latin American dishes.)
>
> Sheesh. That was Shortz's achievement, what, 30-some years ago when
> he took over from Maleska. Oh, hey, he's 8 1/2 months younger than me
> and was at NPR before the NYT.

You do know what "diversity" means, yeah? It's not random that they
hired a black woman on this post. A straight white man would need an
extraordinary resume to convince anyone he'll be good at increasing
contributions that come from and that reflect the experience of black
and brown people, women and LGBTQ2IA+ (or maybe, as someone in my
circles recently suggested, "Q+" *) people.

* To which another promptly commented: "Q" is enough. Who am I to
disagree?

--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)

[Peter T. Daniels]

There's a name in psychology for that phenomenon ("recency effect,"
maybe?). Something you've been exposed to all your life only strikes
you eye when something had brought it to your consciousness just now.

> Recently, I see clues and questions on Jeopardy that make it look like
> someone making up the questions is monitoring aue.
>
> Just happened this evening, with the "Proof of the pudding" clue.

Last night I watched *Garment Jungle* (1957) instead. Lee J. Cobb as
owner of a garment factory bent on keeping the union out of his shop.
He refuses to believe that his partner is responsible for the murders
of various activists and sees the light too late. His son, played by a
wooden Kerwin Matthews, is on the union side and tries to enlighten
his dad.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Garment_Jungle

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 11:46:03 PM UTC-5, Tony Cooper wrote:

> I am watching the Netflix "Inventing Anna" limited series. Much of it
> takes place in NYC. I fully expect to see a scene in which she's
> either in or walking by the Carnegie Deli.
>
> I was able to try one of their pastrami sandwiches (but not able to
> finish it) on a visit several years ago. The Carnegie Deli - on 7th
> Avenue between 54th & 55th Street - closed in 2016. I don't know how
> the staff or customers pronounced "Carnegie".

Like the Hall it was around the corner from, of course.

[Peter T. Daniels]

I am not commenting on "diversity," but on "rivers in Europe."

One can usually tell whether the creator of a crossword puzzle is a man
or a woman from their name in the byline. One cannot tell what race
they are, though East Asian names are often identifiable.

> hired a black woman on this post. A straight white man would need an
> extraordinary resume to convince anyone he'll be good at increasing
> contributions that come from and that reflect the experience of black
> and brown people, women and LGBTQ2IA+ (or maybe, as someone in my
> circles recently suggested, "Q+" *) people.

How is a crossword puzzle editor supposed to know the race or sexual
orientation of the compiler of a crossword that is submitted?

[Quinn C]

Then maybe "Those were ..." would've helped.

I don't see the achievement; if that was ironic, there wasn't enough
context to determine that.

> One can usually tell whether the creator of a crossword puzzle is a man
> or a woman from their name in the byline. One cannot tell what race
> they are, though East Asian names are often identifiable.
>
>> hired a black woman on this post. A straight white man would need an
>> extraordinary resume to convince anyone he'll be good at increasing
>> contributions that come from and that reflect the experience of black
>> and brown people, women and LGBTQ2IA+ (or maybe, as someone in my
>> circles recently suggested, "Q+" *) people.
>
> How is a crossword puzzle editor supposed to know the race or sexual
> orientation of the compiler of a crossword that is submitted?

The ultimate goal isn't just to have diverse crossword compilers, but
crosswords that reflect their experience. She lamented a tendency to
stick to the familiar in an effort to deliver puzzles that seem likely
to be published.

A few more examples would've been good, but one thing that came up was
the spelling of "do-rag/durag", which, in her opinion, *has* to be with
a u, no discussion. I infer that writing "do-rag", as most dictionaries
do exclusively, is an out-group marker.

--
Who would know aught of art must learn and then take his ease.

[Tony Cooper]

On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 14:32:29 -0500, Quinn C
<lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:

>A few more examples would've been good, but one thing that came up was
>the spelling of "do-rag/durag", which, in her opinion, *has* to be with
>a u, no discussion. I infer that writing "do-rag", as most dictionaries
>do exclusively, is an out-group marker.

I would accept "doo rag".

https://doo-rags.com/

That site is owned by white people, but their primary market seems to
be bikers. For a selection of bikers wearing doo-rags:

https://tonycooper.smugmug.com/Bikers/

By using "out-group marker", it seems you think that the product is
only worn by black people.

[Richard Heathfield]

I had to look it up.

In English we say "hat".

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

[Peter T. Daniels]

Not when the understood antecedent was "Maleska's obscurities."

> I don't see the achievement; if that was ironic, there wasn't enough
> context to determine that.
>
> > One can usually tell whether the creator of a crossword puzzle is a man
> > or a woman from their name in the byline. One cannot tell what race
> > they are, though East Asian names are often identifiable.
> >> hired a black woman on this post. A straight white man would need an
> >> extraordinary resume to convince anyone he'll be good at increasing
> >> contributions that come from and that reflect the experience of black
> >> and brown people, women and LGBTQ2IA+ (or maybe, as someone in my
> >> circles recently suggested, "Q+" *) people.
> > How is a crossword puzzle editor supposed to know the race or sexual
> > orientation of the compiler of a crossword that is submitted?
>
> The ultimate goal isn't just to have diverse crossword compilers, but
> crosswords that reflect their experience. She lamented a tendency to
> stick to the familiar in an effort to deliver puzzles that seem likely
> to be published.

What about "likely to be solvable"? Should *Jeopardy!* change to
that sort of clue?

It would be nice to see technical terms from linguistics in puzzles.
But very, very few people would know them. ("Phoneme" has turned
up a couple of times, clued inaccurately.)

> A few more examples would've been good, but one thing that came up was
> the spelling of "do-rag/durag", which, in her opinion, *has* to be with
> a u, no discussion. I infer that writing "do-rag", as most dictionaries
> do exclusively, is an out-group marker.

That's just ridiculous. A do-rag is a rag that protects a (hair)do. "Durag"
would be pronounced ['dR&g] (where [R] is meant to be syllabic r).

The subscribers would be up in arms if a considerable number of
answers in a puzzle were vocabulary they had never encountered.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 3:51:13 PM UTC-5, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> On 18/02/2022 8:32 pm, Tony Cooper wrote:
> > On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 14:32:29 -0500, Quinn C
> > <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:

> >> A few more examples would've been good, but one thing that came up was
> >> the spelling of "do-rag/durag", which, in her opinion, *has* to be with
> >> a u, no discussion. I infer that writing "do-rag", as most dictionaries
> >> do exclusively, is an out-group marker.
> > I would accept "doo rag".

It really isn't up to you ...

> > https://doo-rags.com/
> > That site is owned by white people, but their primary market seems to
> > be bikers. For a selection of bikers wearing doo-rags:
> > https://tonycooper.smugmug.com/Bikers/
> > By using "out-group marker", it seems you think that the product is
> > only worn by black people.
>
> I had to look it up.
>
> In English we say "hat".

One has to wonder where he looked it up.

[Tony Cooper]

On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 20:51:07 +0000, Richard Heathfield
<r...@cpax.org.uk> wrote:

>On 18/02/2022 8:32 pm, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 14:32:29 -0500, Quinn C
>> <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>>
>>> A few more examples would've been good, but one thing that came up was
>>> the spelling of "do-rag/durag", which, in her opinion, *has* to be with
>>> a u, no discussion. I infer that writing "do-rag", as most dictionaries
>>> do exclusively, is an out-group marker.
>>
>> I would accept "doo rag".
>>
>> https://doo-rags.com/
>>
>> That site is owned by white people, but their primary market seems to
>> be bikers. For a selection of bikers wearing doo-rags:
>>
>> https://tonycooper.smugmug.com/Bikers/
>>
>> By using "out-group marker", it seems you think that the product is
>> only worn by black people.
>
>I had to look it up.
>
>In English we say "hat".

I doubt that. The English people I know have far too much sense.

A "durag/do-rag/doo-rag" is a head covering that is often worn under
some other head covering.

Some Bikers wear one it under a helmet.

Some football (the American kind) wear one under a helmet.

Some people wear one under a hat or cap.

Some of the above people wear it at any time without another head
covering or after they have removed another head covering.

Women, more than men, who are undergoing chemotherapy and have lost
their hair, wear one. It is not an "out-group marker" for them.

https://www.etsy.com/market/cancer_do_rag

[Richard Heathfield]

On 18/02/2022 9:19 pm, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 20:51:07 +0000, Richard Heathfield
> <r...@cpax.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 18/02/2022 8:32 pm, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>> On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 14:32:29 -0500, Quinn C
>>> <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>>>
>>>> A few more examples would've been good, but one thing that came up was
>>>> the spelling of "do-rag/durag", which, in her opinion, *has* to be with
>>>> a u, no discussion. I infer that writing "do-rag", as most dictionaries
>>>> do exclusively, is an out-group marker.
>>>
>>> I would accept "doo rag".
>>>
>>> https://doo-rags.com/
>>>
>>> That site is owned by white people, but their primary market seems to
>>> be bikers. For a selection of bikers wearing doo-rags:
>>>
>>> https://tonycooper.smugmug.com/Bikers/
>>>
>>> By using "out-group marker", it seems you think that the product is
>>> only worn by black people.
>>
>> I had to look it up.
>>
>> In English we say "hat".
>
> I doubt that. The English people I know have far too much sense.
>
> A "durag/do-rag/doo-rag" is a head covering that is often worn under
> some other head covering.

Even so, it is clearly an attempt at a hat. Not a great hat, maybe, nor
a hat of which to be particularly proud unless your budget is unusually
parsimonious, but nevertheless by virtue of being an artificial head
covering it is definitely, indubitably, and indisputably a hat.

[Quinn C]

* Tony Cooper:

> On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 14:32:29 -0500, Quinn C
> <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>
>>A few more examples would've been good, but one thing that came up was
>>the spelling of "do-rag/durag", which, in her opinion, *has* to be with
>>a u, no discussion. I infer that writing "do-rag", as most dictionaries
>>do exclusively, is an out-group marker.
>
> I would accept "doo rag".

Based on the principle "be liberal in what you accept, conservative in
what you send", I'd accept it, too, but probably won't use it.

> https://doo-rags.com/
>
> That site is owned by white people, but their primary market seems to
> be bikers. For a selection of bikers wearing doo-rags:
>
> https://tonycooper.smugmug.com/Bikers/
>
> By using "out-group marker", it seems you think that the product is
> only worn by black people.

Another possibility is that it's only called that when used by black
people. I'd more likely call it a bandana.

Also "doo-rag" may be a spelling that's especially popular with bikers.

[Quinn C]

Even more that was "understood" but not said. Try to communicate more!

She might be professionally obliged to the opinion, because the NYT has
been invested in this for a bit.
<https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/14/style/durag-solange-met-gala.html>

[Sam Plusnet]

On 18-Feb-22 21:19, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 20:51:07 +0000, Richard Heathfield
> <r...@cpax.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 18/02/2022 8:32 pm, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>> On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 14:32:29 -0500, Quinn C
>>> <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>>>
>>>> A few more examples would've been good, but one thing that came up was
>>>> the spelling of "do-rag/durag", which, in her opinion, *has* to be with
>>>> a u, no discussion. I infer that writing "do-rag", as most dictionaries
>>>> do exclusively, is an out-group marker.
>>>
>>> I would accept "doo rag".
>>>
>>> https://doo-rags.com/
>>>
>>> That site is owned by white people, but their primary market seems to
>>> be bikers. For a selection of bikers wearing doo-rags:
>>>
>>> https://tonycooper.smugmug.com/Bikers/
>>>
>>> By using "out-group marker", it seems you think that the product is
>>> only worn by black people.
>>
>> I had to look it up.
>>
>> In English we say "hat".
>
> I doubt that. The English people I know have far too much sense.
>
> A "durag/do-rag/doo-rag" is a head covering that is often worn under
> some other head covering.
>

I suspect he is joking. We would actually call it a keffiyeh.

--
Sam Plusnet

[Tony Cooper]

On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 22:21:22 +0000, Richard Heathfield

Your indisputable is disputed by me.

A helmet is not a hat, and it covers the head. A hibjab is not a hat.
A keffiyeh is not a hat. They also cover the head.

[Tony Cooper]

On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 19:58:32 -0500, Quinn C

<lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:

>* Tony Cooper:
>
>> On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 14:32:29 -0500, Quinn C
>> <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>>
>>>A few more examples would've been good, but one thing that came up was
>>>the spelling of "do-rag/durag", which, in her opinion, *has* to be with
>>>a u, no discussion. I infer that writing "do-rag", as most dictionaries
>>>do exclusively, is an out-group marker.
>>
>> I would accept "doo rag".
>
>Based on the principle "be liberal in what you accept, conservative in
>what you send", I'd accept it, too, but probably won't use it.
>
>> https://doo-rags.com/
>>
>> That site is owned by white people, but their primary market seems to
>> be bikers. For a selection of bikers wearing doo-rags:
>>
>> https://tonycooper.smugmug.com/Bikers/
>>
>> By using "out-group marker", it seems you think that the product is
>> only worn by black people.
>
>Another possibility is that it's only called that when used by black
>people. I'd more likely call it a bandana.

There are various styles. A bandana can be formed and tied into a
durag/do-rag/doo-rag, but some have a shape that fits over the head
aren't at all like a bandana.

>
>Also "doo-rag" may be a spelling that's especially popular with bikers.

I don't know of any source that as much as hints that "doo-rag" is
used by bikers any more than "do-rag" or "durag".

I found one source (cited above) where the "doo-rag" spelling is used,
and that source seems aimed at the biker market.

But I also found a source about "doo-rags" that is about why black
people wear them.
https://www.leaf.tv/articles/purpose-of-a-doo-rag/

It seems to be "you pick it" spelling.

[lar3ryca]

On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 2:59:29 PM UTC-6, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 3:51:13 PM UTC-5, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> > On 18/02/2022 8:32 pm, Tony Cooper wrote:
> > > On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 14:32:29 -0500, Quinn C
> > > <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>
> > >> A few more examples would've been good, but one thing that came up was
> > >> the spelling of "do-rag/durag", which, in her opinion, *has* to be with
> > >> a u, no discussion. I infer that writing "do-rag", as most dictionaries
> > >> do exclusively, is an out-group marker.
> > > I would accept "doo rag".
> It really isn't up to you ...

What he accepts is most certainly up to him.
Who's going to stop him?
I would not accept any of the choices so far.

[Richard Heathfield]

Ah! I like the cut of your jib, sir! Have away, then.

> A helmet is not a hat, and it covers the head.

And it is, therefore, a hat.

> A hibjab is not a hat.
> A keffiyeh is not a hat. They also cover the head.

They are, therefore, hats.

And before you ask, a balaclava covers the head. It is, therefore, a
hat, as is that thing Darth Vader puts on before he sets foot outside
the door each bright and sunny morning.

What we have here, M'sieur Cooper, is a terminology disagreement.

[bil...@shaw.ca]

On Tuesday, February 15, 2022 at 9:29:15 AM UTC-8, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

> Games sell a lot of newspapers. Think how much "Sudoku" could have been
> sold for if it had been a protected name. I have known people who
> disliked the Daily Telegraph's political position but bought it because
> they liked its crossword better than they liked those in the Times and
> Guardian.
>
One of my conditions for subscribing to a daily home-delivered newspaper is that
it must include a bridge column. Once upon, a time, the column was written by
Charles Goren.

bill

[occam]

Close, but no coconut. The wider term is 'cognitive bias', and the more
specific phenomenon mentioned by lar3ryca is 'Frequency illusion' (or
the more sinister sounding Baader–Meinhof phenomenon). Have a look at
the extensive list of cognitive biases here:

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases>

Looking at the list, it makes you wonder how we manage to communicate at
all with each other, given that our cognitive biases are determined by
our vastly different backgrounds.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

You did't get Rixi Markus in your part of the world? She was great. Her
successor at the Guardian, Zia Mahmoud, was just as good.


--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.

[Peter Moylan]

I regularly take one hour to read my daily newspaper. Thirty minutes for
the news, twenty minutes for the Sudoku, and ten minutes for the cryptic
crossword. I don't bother with the non-cryptic crossword.

If that newspaper dropped the Sudoku and/or the cryptic crossword, I
would regretfully decide that I could live without reading the news.

In my case, reading the news includes reading the comics. The comics
page is important for two reasons. First, that's the page where I find
the Sudoku and the crosswords. Second, it's an important marker. I can
stop reading at the comics page, because there is nothing to follow
except the classified ads and the male sport.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

[Peter Moylan]

On 19/02/22 19:42, occam wrote:
> On 18/02/2022 17:07, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

>> There's a name in psychology for that phenomenon ("recency
>> effect," maybe?). Something you've been exposed to all your life
>> only strikes you eye when something had brought it to your
>> consciousness just now.
>
> Close, but no coconut. The wider term is 'cognitive bias', and the
> more specific phenomenon mentioned by lar3ryca is 'Frequency
> illusion' (or the more sinister sounding Baader–Meinhof phenomenon).
> Have a look at the extensive list of cognitive biases here:
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases>
>
> Looking at the list, it makes you wonder how we manage to communicate
> at all with each other, given that our cognitive biases are
> determined by our vastly different backgrounds.

Do we communicate? It seems to me that in any exchange we have the
illusion of communicating, and it's only luck that we get something out
of the exchange. It requires more luck for the parties to the
communication to have the same belief about what has been communicated.

I'm not yet convinced that there is any way to tell whether the various
parties agree on what has been transmitted as information.

[Richard Heathfield]

On 19/02/2022 10:01 am, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 19/02/22 19:19, bil...@shaw.ca wrote:
>> On Tuesday, February 15, 2022 at 9:29:15 AM UTC-8, Athel
>> Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>
>>> Games sell a lot of newspapers. Think how much "Sudoku" could have
>>> been sold for if it had been a protected name. I have known people
>>> who disliked the Daily Telegraph's political position but bought it
>>> because they liked its crossword better than they liked those in
>>> the Times and Guardian.
>>>
>> One of my conditions for subscribing to a daily home-delivered
>> newspaper is that it must include a bridge column. Once upon, a time,
>> the column was written by Charles Goren.
>
> I regularly take one hour to read my daily newspaper. Thirty minutes for
> the news, twenty minutes for the Sudoku, and ten minutes for the cryptic
> crossword. I don't bother with the non-cryptic crossword.

Not even for the first two across clues? Sometimes they can be quite
good. Recent example: "kitsch" and "in sync", which brought a smile.

[CDB]

On 2/18/2022 5:21 PM, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> Tony Cooper wrote:
>> Richard Heathfield <r...@cpax.org.uk> wrote:

Or a twat, if worn under a wimple.

--
<acknowledging a legislator>

[Richard Heathfield]

Do your parents know you're using the Internet?

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

I don't get the impression that CDB is posting from his mother's
basement. There are others about whom I'm less sure.

[occam]

On 17/02/2022 18:09, Adam Funk wrote:

> On 2022-02-17, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
>> On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 7:00:08 AM UTC-5, Adam Funk wrote:
>>> On 2022-02-17, Lewis wrote:
>>
>>>> The NYT has removed some words from the solution list, the first was
>>>> "agora".
>>> That's the one that we noticed (& which started this thread).
>>
>> Both AGORA nd ALOFT are "bog-standard" in crossword puzzles,
>> and not just NYT ones, suggesting that this game some of you are
>> obsessed with is intended for people for whom the Monday Puzzle
>> is too challenging.
>

> I have come across complaints that it's being dumbed down now that an
> American publisher owns it!

The opposite, according to a BBC News article [1]

"Many fans took to Twitter to complain that since the NYT took over its
stewardship - with words such as ultra and caulk - the puzzle appeared
more challenging."


>
>
> AFAICT all the NYT has done is put their logo on the page & delete
> some words from the list.
>

Yes, offensive ones, like whore, slave and wench.


[1] BBC story: <https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-60416057>

[CDB]

On 2/19/2022 8:32 AM, Richard Heathfield wrote:

Perhaps, if they should happen to be looking down.

Sed malo errare cum Browning.

--
It seems to rhyme with "bat" or "hat", if that helps.
>

[lar3ryca]

On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 9:22:05 AM UTC-6, occam wrote:
> On 17/02/2022 18:09, Adam Funk wrote:
> > On 2022-02-17, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >
> >> On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 7:00:08 AM UTC-5, Adam Funk wrote:
> >>> On 2022-02-17, Lewis wrote:
> >>
> >>>> The NYT has removed some words from the solution list, the first was
> >>>> "agora".
> >>> That's the one that we noticed (& which started this thread).
> >>
> >> Both AGORA nd ALOFT are "bog-standard" in crossword puzzles,
> >> and not just NYT ones, suggesting that this game some of you are
> >> obsessed with is intended for people for whom the Monday Puzzle
> >> is too challenging.
> >
> > I have come across complaints that it's being dumbed down now that an
> > American publisher owns it!
>
> The opposite, according to a BBC News article [1]
>
> "Many fans took to Twitter to complain that since the NYT took over its
> stewardship - with words such as ultra and caulk - the puzzle appeared
> more challenging."

??? Those words were in there all along.

>
>
> >
> >
> > AFAICT all the NYT has done is put their logo on the page & delete
> > some words from the list.
> >
>
> Yes, offensive ones, like whore, slave and wench.

Jeeze! I can _almost_ understand whore and wench, but is slave now going
to become the next offensive word?

What's next, cotton, plantation, igloo, mukluk, seal, rag, moccasin, and
slant?

[Adam Funk]

On 2022-02-19, occam wrote:

>
> On 17/02/2022 18:09, Adam Funk wrote:
>> On 2022-02-17, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>
>>> On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 7:00:08 AM UTC-5, Adam Funk wrote:
>>>> On 2022-02-17, Lewis wrote:
>>>
>>>>> The NYT has removed some words from the solution list, the first was
>>>>> "agora".
>>>> That's the one that we noticed (& which started this thread).
>>>
>>> Both AGORA nd ALOFT are "bog-standard" in crossword puzzles,
>>> and not just NYT ones, suggesting that this game some of you are
>>> obsessed with is intended for people for whom the Monday Puzzle
>>> is too challenging.
>>
>> I have come across complaints that it's being dumbed down now that an
>> American publisher owns it!
>
> The opposite, according to a BBC News article [1]
>
> "Many fans took to Twitter to complain that since the NYT took over its
> stewardship - with words such as ultra and caulk - the puzzle appeared
> more challenging."

Now that you mention it, I think "caulk" is an unusual word in BrE,
although not as mind-boggling as "spackle".

>
>
>>
>>
>> AFAICT all the NYT has done is put their logo on the page & delete
>> some words from the list.
>>
>
> Yes, offensive ones, like whore, slave and wench.
>
>
> [1] BBC story: <https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-60416057>

--
Science is what we understand well enough to explain to a computer.
Art is everything else we do. ---Donald Knuth

[bil...@shaw.ca]

I don't recall Rixi Markus. We did have Zia Mahmoud for a time. I have a vague
memory that Omar Sharif also had a go at it; even when he was acting, he was a
high-stakes bridge player. For quite a few years now, my daily paper's bridge
column has been bylined Bobby Wolff, of the Dallas Aces.

bill

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

I think it already is; an early episode of TBBT had Sheldon tell his (black) head of HR that she was a slave. to her ovaries (or somesuch; I expect our resident expert can give the exact line).

This wasn't seen in Yet Another repeat more recently. (Channel4/E4 here)

> What's next, cotton, plantation, igloo, mukluk, seal, rag, moccasin, and
> slant?

> >
> >
> > [1] BBC story: <https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-60416057>

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

[Peter T. Daniels]

He thinks wigs are hats. What a maroon.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 7:58:38 PM UTC-5, Quinn C wrote:
> * Tony Cooper:
> > On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 14:32:29 -0500, Quinn C
> > <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
> >
> >>A few more examples would've been good, but one thing that came up was
> >>the spelling of "do-rag/durag", which, in her opinion, *has* to be with
> >>a u, no discussion. I infer that writing "do-rag", as most dictionaries
> >>do exclusively, is an out-group marker.
> >
> > I would accept "doo rag".
> Based on the principle "be liberal in what you accept, conservative in
> what you send", I'd accept it, too, but probably won't use it.
> > https://doo-rags.com/
> >
> > That site is owned by white people, but their primary market seems to
> > be bikers. For a selection of bikers wearing doo-rags:
> >
> > https://tonycooper.smugmug.com/Bikers/
> >
> > By using "out-group marker", it seems you think that the product is
> > only worn by black people.
>
> Another possibility is that it's only called that when used by black
> people. I'd more likely call it a bandana.

"Bandana" is a particular size/shape/print of cloth. "Do-rag" is a
function. A bandana could be used as a do-rag, but that seems
unlikely except for bikers, probably not a major segment of the
user population.

> Also "doo-rag" may be a spelling that's especially popular with bikers.

We know that's who TC hangs out with.

[Peter T. Daniels]

One would hope not -- a keffiyeh flows out from the cord that
binds it to the head, a do-rag confines and protects the hairdo.
(Despite the weird notion RH got from somewhere).

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 12:15:53 AM UTC-5, lar3...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 2:59:29 PM UTC-6, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 3:51:13 PM UTC-5, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> > > On 18/02/2022 8:32 pm, Tony Cooper wrote:
> > > > On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 14:32:29 -0500, Quinn C
> > > > <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:

> > > >> A few more examples would've been good, but one thing that came up was
> > > >> the spelling of "do-rag/durag", which, in her opinion, *has* to be with
> > > >> a u, no discussion. I infer that writing "do-rag", as most dictionaries
> > > >> do exclusively, is an out-group marker.
> > > > I would accept "doo rag".
> > It really isn't up to you ...
>
> What he accepts is most certainly up to him.

The way words are spelled is determined by collecting the data.

> Who's going to stop him?
> I would not accept any of the choices so far.

? Are you a lexicographer? Have you collected the data on published
spellings of the word?

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 1:02:09 PM UTC-5, lar3...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 9:22:05 AM UTC-6, occam wrote:
> > On 17/02/2022 18:09, Adam Funk wrote:

> > > AFAICT all the NYT has done is put their logo on the page & delete
> > > some words from the list.
> > Yes, offensive ones, like whore, slave and wench.
>
> Jeeze! I can _almost_ understand whore and wench, but is slave now going
> to become the next offensive word?

If you hadn't turned up here so recently, you would have seen me
initiate a thread (with no response) on the use of "enslaved person"
in place of "slave," It may have been popularized by the NYT's "1619
Project" but goes back before then. It's no different from "Jewish"
not "a Jew" and so on for all such adjectival forms that have been
discussed here frequently.

> What's next, cotton, plantation, igloo, mukluk, seal, rag, moccasin, and
> slant?

The state of Rhode Island recently changed its official name from
"Rhode Island and Providence Plantations" for that very reason,

What, however, do you have against words borrowed from Native
American languages? (I don't know what seal, rag, and slant are
doing in your list.)

[Jerry Friedman]

On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 3:29:43 PM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 1:02:09 PM UTC-5, lar3...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 9:22:05 AM UTC-6, occam wrote:
> > > On 17/02/2022 18:09, Adam Funk wrote:
>
> > > > AFAICT all the NYT has done is put their logo on the page & delete
> > > > some words from the list.
> > > Yes, offensive ones, like whore, slave and wench.
> >
> > Jeeze! I can _almost_ understand whore and wench, but is slave now going
> > to become the next offensive word?

> If you hadn't turned up here so recently, you would have seen me
> initiate a thread (with no response) on the use of "enslaved person"
> in place of "slave," It may have been popularized by the NYT's "1619
> Project" but goes back before then. It's no different from "Jewish"
> not "a Jew" and so on for all such adjectival forms that have been
> discussed here frequently.

A little different. I've heard the argument that "slave" refers to a person
who is property, but no such thing exists, since one person can't own
another. [*] That strikes me as missing the point spectacularly. Also
"enslaved person" is supposed to emphasize the evil deed of enslaving
someone.

I'm waiting for "slave", "slavery", "enslaved person", etc. to be tabooed
because they really do come from "Slav".

Also for "pedagogy", a word I hear a lot, to meet the same fate because
the etymon originally referred to a slave.

[*] I'm not finding one right now, but here's an article that argues on that
basis that one shouldn't use "owner" to refer to, um, an enslaver.

--
Jerry Friedman

[lar3ryca]

On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 4:23:58 PM UTC-6, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 12:15:53 AM UTC-5, lar3...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 2:59:29 PM UTC-6, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 3:51:13 PM UTC-5, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> > > > On 18/02/2022 8:32 pm, Tony Cooper wrote:
> > > > > On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 14:32:29 -0500, Quinn C
> > > > > <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>
> > > > >> A few more examples would've been good, but one thing that came up was
> > > > >> the spelling of "do-rag/durag", which, in her opinion, *has* to be with
> > > > >> a u, no discussion. I infer that writing "do-rag", as most dictionaries
> > > > >> do exclusively, is an out-group marker.
> > > > > I would accept "doo rag".
> > > It really isn't up to you ...
> >
> > What he accepts is most certainly up to him.
> The way words are spelled is determined by collecting the data.

That does not mean he has to accept any particular spelling.

> > Who's going to stop him?
> > I would not accept any of the choices so far.
> ? Are you a lexicographer? Have you collected the data on published
> spellings of the word?

No, and I don't care. I do not accept the word itself, so feel free to
spell it any way you want. I will still not accept the word.

[lar3ryca]

On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 4:29:43 PM UTC-6, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 1:02:09 PM UTC-5, lar3...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 9:22:05 AM UTC-6, occam wrote:
> > > On 17/02/2022 18:09, Adam Funk wrote:
>
> > > > AFAICT all the NYT has done is put their logo on the page & delete
> > > > some words from the list.
> > > Yes, offensive ones, like whore, slave and wench.
> >
> > Jeeze! I can _almost_ understand whore and wench, but is slave now going
> > to become the next offensive word?
> If you hadn't turned up here so recently, you would have seen me
> initiate a thread (with no response) on the use of "enslaved person"
> in place of "slave," It may have been popularized by the NYT's "1619
> Project" but goes back before then. It's no different from "Jewish"
> not "a Jew" and so on for all such adjectival forms that have been
> discussed here frequently.

Don't care, Peter. Save your fingers.

> > What's next, cotton, plantation, igloo, mukluk, seal, rag, moccasin, and
> > slant?
> The state of Rhode Island recently changed its official name from
> "Rhode Island and Providence Plantations" for that very reason,
>
> What, however, do you have against words borrowed from Native
> American languages? (I don't know what seal, rag, and slant are
> doing in your list.)

seal: any of a genus of sea creatures hunted by whatever the hell the
aboriginal northern tribes call themselves theese days.

rag: a reference to headwear is worn by some southern Asians as part
of their religious costumes. Not currently considered offensive unless
said as the first part of a composite word.

slant: a reference to eyes.

Basically, I rant against the current rush to put perfectly good words
with perfectly inoffensive meaning into the category of words not to be
used.

[Peter Moylan]

On 20/02/22 10:29, Jerry Friedman wrote:

> I'm waiting for "slave", "slavery", "enslaved person", etc. to be
> tabooed because they really do come from "Slav".
>
> Also for "pedagogy", a word I hear a lot, to meet the same fate
> because the etymon originally referred to a slave.

That's a bit of a stretch. "Pedagogue" and its ancestors have always
meant a teacher or a supervisor of boys. The fact that much of the
teaching was done by slaves in ancient Greece is a side issue, in my
opinion. The Greek word meant "leader of children", and it would also
have been applied to trainers/teachers who were not slaves.

[Madhu]

* Tony Cooper <52001hl15r2o1u2ma58d6p2kpmro3ntco9 @4ax.com> :
Wrote on Fri, 18 Feb 2022 15:32:22 -0500:

> On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 14:32:29 -0500, Quinn C
> <lispamateur @crommatograph.info> wrote:
>
>>A few more examples would've been good, but one thing that came up was
>>the spelling of "do-rag/durag", which, in her opinion, *has* to be with
>>a u, no discussion. I infer that writing "do-rag", as most dictionaries
>>do exclusively, is an out-group marker.
>
> I would accept "doo rag".

Do-Rag please. Or it sounds like something for picking up doggy doo

[Tony Cooper]

On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 08:43:10 +0530, Madhu <eno...@meer.net> wrote:

>* Tony Cooper <52001hl15r2o1u2ma58d6p2kpmro3ntco9 @4ax.com> :
>Wrote on Fri, 18 Feb 2022 15:32:22 -0500:
>> On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 14:32:29 -0500, Quinn C
>> <lispamateur @crommatograph.info> wrote:
>>
>>>A few more examples would've been good, but one thing that came up was
>>>the spelling of "do-rag/durag", which, in her opinion, *has* to be with
>>>a u, no discussion. I infer that writing "do-rag", as most dictionaries
>>>do exclusively, is an out-group marker.
>>
>> I would accept "doo rag".
>
>Do-Rag please. Or it sounds like something for picking up doggy doo

How does "doo-rag" sound any different from "do-rag"? For that
matter, "durag" is pronounced the same as "doo-rag" and "do-rag".

When I say I "accept" "doo-rag", that means that if I see the word
written using that spelling I don't consider it an error or a
misspelling. It's a varient spelling.

>
>> https://doo-rags.com/
>> That site is owned by white people, but their primary market seems to
>> be bikers. For a selection of bikers wearing doo-rags:
>> https://tonycooper.smugmug.com/Bikers/

--

Tony Cooper Orlando Florida

[bil...@shaw.ca]

On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 11:30:08 AM UTC-8, Adam Funk wrote:

> On 2022-02-19, occam wrote:

> > "Many fans took to Twitter to complain that since the NYT took over its
> > stewardship - with words such as ultra and caulk - the puzzle appeared
> > more challenging."

> Now that you mention it, I think "caulk" is an unusual word in BrE,
> although not as mind-boggling as "spackle".

What do you call substances used to seal surfaces before they are painted?
I suppose there is putty, but caulk or caulking is a more general term for
sealants of that sort around here.

bill

[Richard Heathfield]

You can't rant, or you'll be appropriating Dutch culture. Also ranting
is coarse in German. Would you mind railing instead, at the possible
risk of upsetting the odd French etymologist?

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

filler?

[Adam Funk]

I often use "caulk" in a "caulk gun", but that's an old habit. The
products are labelled "kitchen and bathroom sealant" (usually just
called "sealant") and "decorator's filler" (usu. "filler"), & they go
in a "cartridge gun".



--
It was far easier for you as civilised men to behave
like barbarians, than it was for them as barbarians to
behave like civilised men. ---Spock

[Tony Cooper]

I guess it's understandable that a linguistician is not au courant
with the do-rag culture, but they are no longer primarily a functional
item. They're more of a fashion accessory today.

There is evidence in paintings that African American women slaves wore
what is today called a do-rag as a hair covering, but the widespread
wearing of one really started in the 1930s when "waves" became the
popular hair style for African American men. That wearing, though,
was at night so the hair would look good during the day. It continues
today with some because the do-rag worn at night keeps braids intact.

The do-rag, today though, is worn during the day. It's particularly
popular with black musicians, some of which shave their heads so
there's no hairstyle to keep in place. It's also a daytime fashion
accessory for black women.

If it was just functional, it would be worn at night and removed in
the morning. Instead, it's worn during the day when the person is in
public.

There are still some functional reasons to wear one. Bikers and
athletes wear them under a helmet either for comfort or to keep the
hair in place.

>> Also "doo-rag" may be a spelling that's especially popular with bikers.
>
>We know that's who TC hangs out with.

It depends on how you define "hangs out". I do frequent some biker
bars to photograph the bikers, but I don't socialize with them. I
have no idea how they spell the word. Even if I did socialize with
bikers, I doubt if spelling conventions would be a conversational
topic. Spellings, hyphenation of words, and the use of diacritics
might spark lively conversations where linguisticians hang out, but I
just can't imagine the subject would arouse interest at a biker bar.

I think bikers are interesting character studies, and that's what I
look for when I go out with my camera.

I've also taken photographs like this:

https://photos.smugmug.com/SCENES-/i-LQLhv46/0/9d8f2b59/XL/2012-05-10-103-XL.jpg

but I don't think you'd say I hang out with them.

[occam]

rag-heads? By that token 'sand' should also become a slur eventually,
on the ground that US forces used to refer to Afghan locals - and Arabs
in general - as sand-niggers.

>
> slant: a reference to eyes.

Jeremy Clarkson (previously of Top Gear motoring show) was criticized by
viewers for pointing out 'a slant' on a make-shift bridge the team had
constructed across a river (somewhere in Asia). It turned out there was
an Asian man in the background of the shot. Clarkson was famous for such
intentional slurs and was eventually fired from the BBC.

[charles]

In article <j7f2eb...@mid.individual.net>,

The sacking was because he hit the show's producer because they got back to
hotel late and the chef had gone off duty. Delay was caused by spending too
long in the pub.

> >
> > Basically, I rant against the current rush to put perfectly good words
> > with perfectly inoffensive meaning into the category of words not to be
> > used.
> >
> >
> >>>> [1] BBC story: <https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-60416057>

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

[Jerry Friedman]

Well, Liddell and Scott define it only as "slave who went with a boy
from home to school and back again". On the other hand, the "Middle
Liddell" defines it as "/a boy-ward;/ at Athens, /the slave who went with
a boy from home to school and back again,/ a kind of /tutor/".

There still seems to be a strong association with slavery when the word
originated. The usual word for "teacher" seems to be "didaskos".

--
Jerry Friedman

[Jerry Friedman]

I mean "didaskalos".

--
Jerry Friedman

[lar3ryca]

Har!
OK, I'll rail. Don't care about French etymologists.

[lar3ryca]

On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 7:00:08 AM UTC-6, Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2022-02-20, bil...@shaw.ca wrote:
>
> > On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 11:30:08 AM UTC-8, Adam Funk wrote:
> >> On 2022-02-19, occam wrote:
> >
> >> > "Many fans took to Twitter to complain that since the NYT took over its
> >> > stewardship - with words such as ultra and caulk - the puzzle appeared
> >> > more challenging."
> >
> >> Now that you mention it, I think "caulk" is an unusual word in BrE,
> >> although not as mind-boggling as "spackle".
> >
> > What do you call substances used to seal surfaces before they are painted?
> > I suppose there is putty, but caulk or caulking is a more general term for
> > sealants of that sort around here.
> I often use "caulk" in a "caulk gun", but that's an old habit. The
> products are labelled "kitchen and bathroom sealant" (usually just
> called "sealant") and "decorator's filler" (usu. "filler"), & they go
> in a "cartridge gun".

I apply that sort of thing with a 'caulking gun'.

[Adam Funk]

Well, there is deliberately no apostrophe in "Hells Angels" (not that
they're representative of bikers generally).

> I think bikers are interesting character studies, and that's what I
> look for when I go out with my camera.
>
> I've also taken photographs like this:
>
> https://photos.smugmug.com/SCENES-/i-LQLhv46/0/9d8f2b59/XL/2012-05-10-103-XL.jpg
>
> but I don't think you'd say I hang out with them.
>
>
>
>


--

Dear Ann [Landers]: if there's an enormous rash of necrophilia that
happens in the next year because of this song, please let me know.
99.9% of the rest of us know it's a funny song! ---Alice Cooper

[Tony Cooper]

On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 16:14:34 +0000, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com>
wrote:

I've never seen a biker in Hells Angels colors around here. I did,
though, once stop at a bar where a number of bikers were gathered in
the parking lot. I got out of the car with my camera, but a very
large gentlemen in Outlaw colors shook his finger at me in that
side-to-side movment that signifies "Don't do this".

I obliged him.

The Outlaws are the "Big Four" biker group that is the dominant
motorcycle club in this area. They don't play nicely with the
Warlocks; the other group in the area that wear the 1% patch.

>
>> I think bikers are interesting character studies, and that's what I
>> look for when I go out with my camera.
>>
>> I've also taken photographs like this:
>>
>> https://photos.smugmug.com/SCENES-/i-LQLhv46/0/9d8f2b59/XL/2012-05-10-103-XL.jpg
>>
>> but I don't think you'd say I hang out with them.
>>

I linked to the wrong photo. This is the photo I meant to link to:

https://photos.smugmug.com/Birds/i-DqQHHFJ/0/ceb586b9/X3/2012-06-16-650-X3.jpg

[Quinn C]

* Jerry Friedman:

> On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 3:29:43 PM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 1:02:09 PM UTC-5, lar3...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 9:22:05 AM UTC-6, occam wrote:
>>> > On 17/02/2022 18:09, Adam Funk wrote:
>>
>>> > > AFAICT all the NYT has done is put their logo on the page & delete
>>> > > some words from the list.
>>> > Yes, offensive ones, like whore, slave and wench.
>>>
>>> Jeeze! I can _almost_ understand whore and wench, but is slave now going
>>> to become the next offensive word?
>
>> If you hadn't turned up here so recently, you would have seen me
>> initiate a thread (with no response) on the use of "enslaved person"
>> in place of "slave," It may have been popularized by the NYT's "1619
>> Project" but goes back before then. It's no different from "Jewish"
>> not "a Jew" and so on for all such adjectival forms that have been
>> discussed here frequently.
>
> A little different. I've heard the argument that "slave" refers to a person
> who is property, but no such thing exists, since one person can't own
> another. [*] That strikes me as missing the point spectacularly. Also
> "enslaved person" is supposed to emphasize the evil deed of enslaving
> someone.

My understanding - possibly in part by my own transfer from other
examples - is that "enslaved person" emphasizes that being enslaved is
something that was done to them rather than an intrinsic quality of the
person, as some racists seem to think. Not that I ever thought "slave"
was a description of the person itself rather than their circumstance,
but some people do use it that way. I've seen somewhat similar
discussions about the word "victim".

> [*] I'm not finding one right now, but here's an article that argues on that
> basis that one shouldn't use "owner" to refer to, um, an enslaver.

Aren't there people that reject that language for pets already?

--
- History is full of lies.
- Ain't that the truth.
-- Andromeda, S04E12

[Tony Cooper]

On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 07:58:58 -0800 (PST), lar3ryca
<lar3...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 7:00:08 AM UTC-6, Adam Funk wrote:
>> On 2022-02-20, bil...@shaw.ca wrote:
>>
>> > On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 11:30:08 AM UTC-8, Adam Funk wrote:
>> >> On 2022-02-19, occam wrote:
>> >
>> >> > "Many fans took to Twitter to complain that since the NYT took over its
>> >> > stewardship - with words such as ultra and caulk - the puzzle appeared
>> >> > more challenging."
>> >
>> >> Now that you mention it, I think "caulk" is an unusual word in BrE,
>> >> although not as mind-boggling as "spackle".
>> >
>> > What do you call substances used to seal surfaces before they are painted?
>> > I suppose there is putty, but caulk or caulking is a more general term for
>> > sealants of that sort around here.
>> I often use "caulk" in a "caulk gun", but that's an old habit. The
>> products are labelled "kitchen and bathroom sealant" (usually just
>> called "sealant") and "decorator's filler" (usu. "filler"), & they go
>> in a "cartridge gun".
>
>I apply that sort of thing with a 'caulking gun'.
>

I just checked the closet where I keep such things, and all the
products that I call "caulk" are labeled "Sealant". But, like you, I
apply them with a "caulking gun".

"Spackle" is different. It comes in a tub. If I'm repairing a hole
in the wall, I'll apply spackle and push it in with my finger to fill
the hole. It always shrinks a bit when it dries, so I apply a second
layer so the repair bulges out slightly from the wall. After that
dries, I'll sand it down and paint the area.

[Ken Blake]

On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 08:43:10 +0530, Madhu <eno...@meer.net> wrote:

>* Tony Cooper <52001hl15r2o1u2ma58d6p2kpmro3ntco9 @4ax.com> :
>Wrote on Fri, 18 Feb 2022 15:32:22 -0500:
>> On Fri, 18 Feb 2022 14:32:29 -0500, Quinn C
>> <lispamateur @crommatograph.info> wrote:
>>
>>>A few more examples would've been good, but one thing that came up was
>>>the spelling of "do-rag/durag", which, in her opinion, *has* to be with
>>>a u, no discussion. I infer that writing "do-rag", as most dictionaries
>>>do exclusively, is an out-group marker.
>>
>> I would accept "doo rag".
>
>Do-Rag please. Or it sounds like something for picking up doggy doo
>

Du, du liegst mir im Herzen...

[Quinn C]

* Ken Blake:

C. S. Forester's book Poo-Poo and the Dragons seems to have been more
successful in Germany than at home. It was one of my favorite books as a
child. The protagonist was called Dudu in the translation.

--
Canada's brand is well-intentioned genocide.
-- Hannah McGregor

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 6:29:34 PM UTC-5, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 3:29:43 PM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 1:02:09 PM UTC-5, lar3...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 9:22:05 AM UTC-6, occam wrote:
> > > > On 17/02/2022 18:09, Adam Funk wrote:

> > > > > AFAICT all the NYT has done is put their logo on the page & delete
> > > > > some words from the list.
> > > > Yes, offensive ones, like whore, slave and wench.
> > > Jeeze! I can _almost_ understand whore and wench, but is slave now going
> > > to become the next offensive word?
> > If you hadn't turned up here so recently, you would have seen me
> > initiate a thread (with no response) on the use of "enslaved person"
> > in place of "slave," It may have been popularized by the NYT's "1619
> > Project" but goes back before then. It's no different from "Jewish"
> > not "a Jew" and so on for all such adjectival forms that have been
> > discussed here frequently.
>
> A little different. I've heard the argument that "slave" refers to a person
> who is property, but no such thing exists, since one person can't own
> another. [*] That strikes me as missing the point spectacularly. Also

That's as ahistorical as the College Championship children!

> "enslaved person" is supposed to emphasize the evil deed of enslaving
> someone.
>
> I'm waiting for "slave", "slavery", "enslaved person", etc. to be tabooed
> because they really do come from "Slav".

I'm also not giving up "gyp."

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 7:11:45 PM UTC-5, lar3...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 4:29:43 PM UTC-6, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 1:02:09 PM UTC-5, lar3...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 9:22:05 AM UTC-6, occam wrote:
> > > > On 17/02/2022 18:09, Adam Funk wrote:

> > > > > AFAICT all the NYT has done is put their logo on the page & delete
> > > > > some words from the list.
> > > > Yes, offensive ones, like whore, slave and wench.

> > > > > > to become the next offensive word?
> > If you hadn't turned up here so recently, you would have seen me
> > initiate a thread (with no response) on the use of "enslaved person"
> > in place of "slave," It may have been popularized by the NYT's "1619
> > Project" but goes back before then. It's no different from "Jewish"
> > not "a Jew" and so on for all such adjectival forms that have been
> > discussed here frequently.
.
> Don't care, Peter. Save your fingers.

"Don't care" about what? That it's rude to call someone "a Jew" or
"a Chinaman"?

> > > What's next, cotton, plantation, igloo, mukluk, seal, rag, moccasin, and
> > > slant?
> > The state of Rhode Island recently changed its official name from
> > "Rhode Island and Providence Plantations" for that very reason,
> > What, however, do you have against words borrowed from Native
> > American languages? (I don't know what seal, rag, and slant are
> > doing in your list.)
>
> seal: any of a genus of sea creatures hunted by whatever the hell the
> aboriginal northern tribes call themselves theese days.

How is that objectionable to whom?

> rag: a reference to headwear is worn by some southern Asians as part
> of their religious costumes. Not currently considered offensive unless
> said as the first part of a composite word.

That might be a Canadianism.

> slant: a reference to eyes.

I think I've seen that in junk books from a century or more ago.

> Basically, I rant against the current rush to put perfectly good words
> with perfectly inoffensive meaning into the category of words not to be
> used.

Well, there aren't any examples of that in your list above.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 8:00:08 AM UTC-5, Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2022-02-20, bil...@shaw.ca wrote:
> > On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 11:30:08 AM UTC-8, Adam Funk wrote:
> >> On 2022-02-19, occam wrote:

> >> > "Many fans took to Twitter to complain that since the NYT took over its
> >> > stewardship - with words such as ultra and caulk - the puzzle appeared
> >> > more challenging."
> >> Now that you mention it, I think "caulk" is an unusual word in BrE,
> >> although not as mind-boggling as "spackle".
> > What do you call substances used to seal surfaces before they are painted?
> > I suppose there is putty, but caulk or caulking is a more general term for
> > sealants of that sort around here.
>
> I often use "caulk" in a "caulk gun", but that's an old habit. The
> products are labelled "kitchen and bathroom sealant" (usually just
> called "sealant") and "decorator's filler" (usu. "filler"), & they go
> in a "cartridge gun".

Those terms sound a lot less specific than the American ones.
Like, they'll need lots of adjectives to distinguish among various
"fillers" and "cartridges."

[Peter T. Daniels]

It was good of you to reveal how totally segregated the communities
you inhabit and visit are.

If you went among black people regularly, you could see how
limited the above description is.

> There are still some functional reasons to wear one. Bikers and
> athletes wear them under a helmet either for comfort or to keep the
> hair in place.
>
> >> Also "doo-rag" may be a spelling that's especially popular with bikers.
> >We know that's who TC hangs out with.
>
> It depends on how you define "hangs out". I do frequent some biker
> bars to photograph the bikers, but I don't socialize with them. I
> have no idea how they spell the word.

But that didn't stop you from claiming they spell it with two o's.

> Even if I did socialize with
> bikers, I doubt if spelling conventions would be a conversational
> topic. Spellings, hyphenation of words, and the use of diacritics
> might spark lively conversations where linguisticians hang out, but I
> just can't imagine the subject would arouse interest at a biker bar.

I don't know any "linguisticians," and I don't know where they hang
out, or what they may talk about, but probably not lexicography or
copy-editing.

> I think bikers are interesting character studies, and that's what I
> look for when I go out with my camera.

Yup, that's how you've described it previously.

> I've also taken photographs like this:
>
> https://photos.smugmug.com/SCENES-/i-LQLhv46/0/9d8f2b59/XL/2012-05-10-103-XL.jpg
>
> but I don't think you'd say I hang out with them.

That's what emerges from your mentions. No reason to suppose
they don't tolerate you or ask you not to.