Trisch-Trasch Polka
Mark Odegard
I was watching the PBS broadcast of Zubin Mehta and the Vienna
Philharmonic. They played what I remember as the Trisch-Trasch
Polka; they called this, however, the Chit-Chat Polka.
Does trisch-trasch mean chit-chat? And if it does, what is the
relationship to the English "to trash", meaning "to disparage",
and sometimes, I think, "to gossip".
Or have I simply gotten it wrong?
--
Mark Odegard.
My real address doesn't include a Christian name.
Emailed copies of responses are very much appreciated.
Reinhold Aman
Mark Odegard wrote:
> I was watching the PBS broadcast of Zubin Mehta and the Vienna
> Philharmonic. They played what I remember as the Trisch-Trasch
> Polka; they called this, however, the Chit-Chat Polka.
Funny, I watched the same program and thought about the two names of
the polka, too.
> Does trisch-trasch mean chit-chat?
The correct spelling of the polka (sorry, Mark) is "Tritschtratsch"
(gossip; chitchat), a word coined by Johann Strauß. Just as the English
word is a reduplication formed from "chat," "Tritschtratsch" is a
reduplication formed from the German colloquial "tratschen," to gossip,
to chat, to engage in small talk. The basic meaning of "tratschen" is to
spread nasty gossip, to talk behind someone's back, to spread false
rumors, especially as done by women.
"Tratschen" is commonly heard in southeastern Germany and in Austria.
Austrians and Bavarians have several derogatory terms for women who
habitually gossip or talk about others: Tratschn /tra:tshn/ ("a" as in
"cup"), Tratscherin, Tratschmirl (lit., gossip-Mary), and Tratschkathl
(lit., gossip-Catherine). Very common first names of both sexes are part
of dozens of terms of abuse.
> And if it does, what is the
> relationship to the English "to trash", meaning "to disparage",
> and sometimes, I think, "to gossip".
There is no etymological relationship between "tratschen" and "to
trash."
--
Reinhold Aman, Editor
MALEDICTA: The International Journal of Verbal Aggression
P.O. Box 14123
Santa Rosa, CA 95402-6123, USA
http://www.sonic.net/maledicta/
Frances Kemmish
Reinhold Aman wrote:
>
> Mark Odegard wrote:
>
> > I was watching the PBS broadcast of Zubin Mehta and the Vienna
> > Philharmonic. They played what I remember as the Trisch-Trasch
> > Polka; they called this, however, the Chit-Chat Polka.
>
> Funny, I watched the same program and thought about the two names of
> the polka, too.
>
> > Does trisch-trasch mean chit-chat?
>
> The correct spelling of the polka (sorry, Mark) is "Tritschtratsch"
> (gossip; chitchat), a word coined by Johann Strauß. Just as the English
> word is a reduplication formed from "chat," "Tritschtratsch" is a
> reduplication formed from the German colloquial "tratschen," to gossip,
> to chat, to engage in small talk.
When I was an undergraduate, the head of our department was Professor
Franz-Josef Tritsch, an Austrian. I have always thought of him when I
heard the music. Now I shall have to think of him as a gossip, I
suppose, too.
Fran
Mark Odegard
[Posted, e-mailed] **Note Spam Trap below** On Fri, 02 Jan 1998
01:56:37 -0800, Reinhold Aman <am...@sonic.net> in
<34ACB9...@sonic.net> wrote
I asked
|> Does trisch-trasch mean chit-chat?
|
|The correct spelling of the polka (sorry, Mark) is "Tritschtratsch"
|(gossip; chitchat), a word coined by Johann Strauß.
I did a web search to get this spelling. I took it from a page
that was hawking a Peter Ustinov video that recreated a Russian
tour by Strauss (and played the rececently discovered "Pavlosk
Polka". I wondered, though, if there was another T or two in
there.
|The basic meaning of "tratschen" is to
|spread nasty gossip, to talk behind someone's back, to spread false
|rumors
[...]
|> And if it does, what is the
|> relationship to the English "to trash", meaning "to disparage",
|> and sometimes, I think, "to gossip".
|
|There is no etymological relationship between "tratschen" and "to
|trash."
I'm aware of the Scandinavian orgin of English "trash", at least
for the noun. My observation was that German "tratsch" may have
influenced the gossipy-disparaging sense -- at least in the US;
MWCD10 gives 1859. A critic trashes badly performed or badly
written dramatic pieces; a nasty gossip trashes the reputations
of persons behind their backs.
I looks like a coincidence (though an interesting one).
Reinhold Aman
Mark Odegard wrote:
>
> [Posted, e-mailed] On Fri, 02 Jan 1998
> 01:56:37 -0800, Reinhold Aman <am...@sonic.net> in
> <34ACB9...@sonic.net> wrote
>
> I asked
>
> |> Does trisch-trasch mean chit-chat?
>
> |The correct spelling of the polka (sorry, Mark) is "Tritschtratsch"
> |(gossip; chitchat), a word coined by Johann Strauß.
Correction: Instead of "coined," I should have written "popularized."
Strauß definitely popularized this word, but I have not found any
evidence that he coined it. Sorry. My source: Peter Wehle: _Sprechen
Sie Wienerisch?_ [Do you speak Viennese?]. Vienna: Carl Ueberreuter,
1980: 275.
> I did a web search to get this spelling. I took it from a page
> that was hawking a Peter Ustinov video that recreated a Russian
> tour by Strauss (and played the recently discovered "Pavlosk
> Polka". I wondered, though, if there was another T or two in
> there.
> |The basic meaning of "tratschen" is to
> |spread nasty gossip, to talk behind someone's back, to spread false
> |rumors
>
> [...]
>
> |> And if it does, what is the
> |> relationship to the English "to trash", meaning "to disparage",
> |> and sometimes, I think, "to gossip".
> |
> |There is no etymological relationship between "tratschen" and "to
> |trash."
>
> I'm aware of the Scandinavian orgin of English "trash", at least
> for the noun. My observation was that German "tratsch" may have
> influenced the gossipy-disparaging sense -- at least in the US;
> MWCD10 gives 1859. A critic trashes badly performed or badly
> written dramatic pieces; a nasty gossip trashes the reputations
> of persons behind their backs.
>
> I looks like a coincidence (though an interesting one).
Nitpicking philologists notice the extra "t" in the German word (G.
tratsch- vs. E. trash) and have to account for it. The etymology of
"tratschen" is, TTBOMK (to the best of my knowledge) uncertain. It's
said to be onomatopoeic, from the splashing sound of water. (Not very
convincing to me.)
--
Reinhold Aman
Reinhold Aman
Frances Kemmish wrote:
> Reinhold Aman wrote:
> >
> > Mark Odegard wrote:
> > > Does trisch-trasch mean chit-chat?
> >
> > The correct spelling of the polka (sorry, Mark) is "Tritschtratsch"
> > (gossip; chitchat), a word coined by Johann Strauß. Just as the English
> > word is a reduplication formed from "chat," "Tritschtratsch" is a
> > reduplication formed from the German colloquial "tratschen," to gossip,
> > to chat, to engage in small talk.
>
> When I was an undergraduate, the head of our department was Professor
> Franz-Josef Tritsch, an Austrian. I have always thought of him when I
> heard the music. Now I shall have to think of him as a gossip, I
> suppose, too.
> Fran
It gets worse, Fran: in most Austrian and Bavarian dialects,
_tritscheln_ means 1: to gossip; 2: to work in a fussy, complicated
manner; 3: to dawdle; 4: to expel wet farts (i.e., the kind containing
solid, slimy fecal matter; the kind of fart one expels during diarrhea
or after taking too much Ex-Lax. [For our Foreign Friends: "Ex-Lax" is
the trade name of a stool-softener]).
_Tritschler_ (m.) and _Tritschlerin_ (f.) are persons who gossip,
dawdle, or let wet farts. Take your pick when you're thinking of
Professor Tritsch.
David McMurray
Reinhold Aman wrote:
[snip]
> Strauß definitely popularized this word [...]
The last letter(s) of "Strauss", as you have written it, appear(s) on my
screen as a "beta". In an ideal world, what would it be? (If you
intended "beta", could you please explain why?)
Thanks in advance.
[snip]
--
David (eliminate "hitch" to reply)
Reinhold Aman
David McMurray wrote:
> Reinhold Aman wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > Strauß definitely popularized this word [...]
> The last letter(s) of "Strauss", as you have written it, appear(s) on my
> screen as a "beta". In an ideal world, what would it be? (If you
> intended "beta", could you please explain why?)
The German letter "ß" that looks approximately like a Greek beta is
used in place of the old "sz" and the contemporary "ss" when preceded by
a long vowel, in word-final position, etc. It serves to distinguish
between certain ambiguous pairs: _Maße_ /ma:se/ (long, "a" as in
father) means 'measures,' but _Masse_ /mase/ (short, "a" as in "cup")
means 'mass.' The German-speaking Swiss have dumped "ß" long ago and use
only "ss." _Strauss_ and _Strauß_ are the same, as are _naß_ and _nass_,
_groß_ and _gross_, _haßt_ and _hasst_, and so on.
--
Reinhold Aman, Editor
Rob Bannister
> > [snip]
> >
> > > Strauß definitely popularized this word [...]
> > The last letter(s) of "Strauss", as you have written it, appear(s) on my
> > screen as a "beta". In an ideal world, what would it be? (If you
> > intended "beta", could you please explain why?)
>
> The German letter "ß" that looks approximately like a Greek beta is
> used in place of the old "sz" and the contemporary "ss" when preceded by
> a long vowel, in word-final position, etc. It serves to distinguish
> between certain ambiguous pairs: _Maße_ /ma:se/ (long, "a" as in
> father) means 'measures,' but _Masse_ /mase/ (short, "a" as in "cup")
> means 'mass.' The German-speaking Swiss have dumped "ß" long ago and use
> only "ss." _Strauss_ and _Strauß_ are the same, as are _naß_ and _nass_,
> _groß_ and _gross_, _haßt_ and _hasst_, and so on.
Regrettably, (because I like old spellings and funny letters) the ß symbol
must now disappear from German. I believe the edict came out in 1990 and all
teachers in Germany and Austria have had extensive training. I have never
heard a reason, but I suspect the almighty computer.
--
RobB
Reinhold Aman
This is a follow-up to Thomas Schenk's post that mysteriously
disappeared from my server:
The German Orthographic Reform (Rechtschreibreform) is scheduled to
be phased in on August 1, 1998, and become final on July 31, 2005. Many
changes make sense, but just as many are dreadful and made for the
convenience of people who are too lazy or too stupid to learn how to
write their own language. Currently, professors, teachers, writers,
publishers, politicians, common folks, and liberal "social engineers"
are fighting fierce battles for and against this simplified, dumbed-down
"Jacobi-German."
As Tom said, the "ß" will stay. The major change is the use of "ss"
instead of "ß" after *all* short vowels, now including in word-final
position:
Nuß --> Nuss
Haß --> Hass
Kuß --> Kuss
muß --> muss
daß --> dass
läßt --> lässt
küßt --> küsst
But after a long vowel: Fraß, Fuß, Maß.
By the way, the letter "ß" (das Eszett = s-z) was created when
German still had the so-called "long s," a variant of "s" used in
certain word positions and combinations with other letters. It looked
like an "f" without the horizontal line, was also used in U.S. English,
and is familiar to those who have seen Colonial American writing and
printing, such as by Benjamin Franklin. Combining "f" with "z" resulted
in the ligature "fz," now written "ß."
Simon R. Hughes
On Mon, 05 Jan 1998 09:28:10 +0800, Rob Bannister <rob...@it.net.au>
scribbled:
There was an interesting article in the 29th Sept. 1997 Time International
about a recent spelling and punctuation reform in Germany. The idea is to
simplify written German. There is a reduction of spelling rules from 212 to
112 and comma rules from 52 to nine.
According to the article, ß will no longer be written after short vowels,
resulting in some triple letters (e.g. *der Flusssand*). *Die Welt*
welcomed the reform with these words: "Spelling is for pedants, smart-asses
and compulsive neurotics".
I won't post the whole article, I'm sure it is available on-line somewhere.
Simon R. Hughes
mailto:shu...@geocities.com
(Mail not sent directly to this address will be deleted.)