"To push a door to". was: OT: help with English phrase, please!

[James Harris]

On 21/05/2017 12:15, Graeme wrote:
> In message <ofrsev$5em$3...@dont-email.me>, Gunther Heiko Hagen
> <gunth...@quantserve.de> writes
>
>> Can anyone tell me what is meant by the English idiom, "push the door to"
>> please?
>
> Shut that door! Close the door.

Yes, but possibly not to lock it. In the way I have heard it used I
would say that a door which is "pushed to" would be closed but not
locked. It might be to shut out a draft from an internal door, for
example, and be especially in contrast to being "ajar".

There is also group alt.usage.english. Copied them in and set followups.
Would be interested to hear what others think of the idiom.


--
James Harris

[Whiskers]

On 2017-05-21, James Harris <james.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 21/05/2017 12:15, Graeme wrote:
>> In message <ofrsev$5em$3...@dont-email.me>, Gunther Heiko Hagen
>> <gunth...@quantserve.de> writes
>>
>>> Can anyone tell me what is meant by the English idiom, "push the
>>> door to" please?
>>
>> Shut that door! Close the door.
>
> Yes, but possibly not to lock it. In the way I have heard it used I
> would say that a door which is "pushed to" would be closed but not
> locked. It might be to shut out a draft from an internal door, for
> example, and be especially in contrast to being "ajar".

I'd go along with that.

> There is also group alt.usage.english. Copied them in and set
> followups. Would be interested to hear what others think of the
> idiom.

OED online has

to pull to

trans. To pull (a door, etc.) so that it closes or nearly closes.

1673 W. Wycherley Gentleman Dancing-master ii. i. 34 (stage
direct.) She pulls the door to.

1727 P. Aubin tr. R. Challes Illustrious French Lovers (ed. 2) II.
253 She kept her Word, and having brought me into my Lady's Chamber
left me there, and pull'd the Door to after her.

[...]

It seems reasonable to me that from the other side, one would have to
push the door to - although OED doesn't specifically have that as an
example under 'push'.

--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~

[Peter Moylan]

Complete agreement. To push a door to means to close it, although not
necessarily to lock it.

And when, once more, she whispers "Shut the door"
C'est magnifique.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia

[Tony Cooper]

On Mon, 22 May 2017 02:01:38 +1000, Peter Moylan
<pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>On 2017-May-21 21:41, James Harris wrote:
>> On 21/05/2017 12:15, Graeme wrote:
>>> In message <ofrsev$5em$3...@dont-email.me>, Gunther Heiko Hagen
>>> <gunth...@quantserve.de> writes
>>>
>>>> Can anyone tell me what is meant by the English idiom, "push the door
>>>> to"
>>>> please?
>>>
>>> Shut that door! Close the door.
>>
>> Yes, but possibly not to lock it. In the way I have heard it used I
>> would say that a door which is "pushed to" would be closed but not
>> locked. It might be to shut out a draft from an internal door, for
>> example, and be especially in contrast to being "ajar".
>>
>> There is also group alt.usage.english. Copied them in and set followups.
>> Would be interested to hear what others think of the idiom.
>
>Complete agreement. To push a door to means to close it, although not
>necessarily to lock it.

This American agrees, but would not expect to hear/see that
construction from another American.

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

[Harrison Hill]

I agree with the others. The door would most likely be
in the "ajar" position, and pulling or pushing it "to",
would be using sufficient strength to stop the draught,
or to maintain privacy. It isn't an urgent task. You would
never "slam" a door pushing or pulling it "to".

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Mon, 22 May 2017 02:01:38 +1000, Peter Moylan
<pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>On 2017-May-21 21:41, James Harris wrote:
>> On 21/05/2017 12:15, Graeme wrote:
>>> In message <ofrsev$5em$3...@dont-email.me>, Gunther Heiko Hagen
>>> <gunth...@quantserve.de> writes
>>>
>>>> Can anyone tell me what is meant by the English idiom, "push the door
>>>> to"
>>>> please?
>>>
>>> Shut that door! Close the door.
>>
>> Yes, but possibly not to lock it. In the way I have heard it used I
>> would say that a door which is "pushed to" would be closed but not
>> locked. It might be to shut out a draft from an internal door, for
>> example, and be especially in contrast to being "ajar".
>>
>> There is also group alt.usage.english. Copied them in and set followups.
>> Would be interested to hear what others think of the idiom.
>
>Complete agreement. To push a door to means to close it, although not
>necessarily to lock it.
>

I'm hesitant about wholeheartedly agreeing with that.

I think the only times I've met the phrase in real life the meaning was
to close the door until the latch was touching the striker plate. The
door wasn't fully closed with the spring-loaded latch going into the
hole in the striker plate. The door could be pushed or pulled open
without a handle or knob being turned.

Some people would describe the door as being "ajar". I know "ajar" as
meaning not fully closed with a gap between the door and the frame, i.e
without the latch touching the striker plate.

without the door bein

>And when, once more, she whispers "Shut the door"
>C'est magnifique.

--

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Mark Brader]

Gunther Heiko Hagen:

>>> Can anyone tell me what is meant by the English idiom, "push the door to"
>>> please?

"Graeme":

>> Shut that door! Close the door.

James Harris:

> Yes, but possibly not to lock it. In the way I have heard it used I
> would say that a door which is "pushed to" would be closed but not
> locked.

I disagree slightly; it's almost closed, but not latched. It means
to close it until the bolt that would latch it touches the doorframe.
--
Mark Brader "Doing the wrong thing is worse than doing nothing."
Toronto "Doing *anything* is worse than doing nothing!"
m...@vex.net -- Lynn & Jay: YES, PRIME MINISTER

[RH Draney]

On 5/21/2017 9:17 AM, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Mon, 22 May 2017 02:01:38 +1000, Peter Moylan
> <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 2017-May-21 21:41, James Harris wrote:
>>> On 21/05/2017 12:15, Graeme wrote:
>>>> In message <ofrsev$5em$3...@dont-email.me>, Gunther Heiko Hagen
>>>> <gunth...@quantserve.de> writes
>>>>
>>>>> Can anyone tell me what is meant by the English idiom, "push the door
>>>>> to"
>>>>> please?
>>>>
>>>> Shut that door! Close the door.
>>>
>>> Yes, but possibly not to lock it. In the way I have heard it used I
>>> would say that a door which is "pushed to" would be closed but not
>>> locked. It might be to shut out a draft from an internal door, for
>>> example, and be especially in contrast to being "ajar".
>>

>> Complete agreement. To push a door to means to close it, although not
>> necessarily to lock it.
>
> This American agrees, but would not expect to hear/see that
> construction from another American.

This American heard "pull the door to" regularly as a child, but can't
recall ever hearing it with "push"...I also remember the question "is
the door to?"...r

[HVS]

On Sun, 21 May 2017 15:56:55 -0500, m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:
> Gunther Heiko Hagen:

> >>> Can anyone tell me what is meant by the English idiom, "push
the door to"
> >>> please?

> "Graeme":
> >> Shut that door! Close the door.

> James Harris:
> > Yes, but possibly not to lock it. In the way I have heard it used
I
> > would say that a door which is "pushed to" would be closed but
not
> > locked.

> I disagree slightly; it's almost closed, but not latched. It means
> to close it until the bolt that would latch it touches the
doorframe.

That's definitely how I take it as well - close the door to just
before it would latch.

--
Cheers, Harvey
CanE (30 years) & BrE (34 years),
indiscriminately mixed

[Tony Cooper]

On Sun, 21 May 2017 23:35:18 +0100, HVS <use...@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk>
wrote:

>On Sun, 21 May 2017 15:56:55 -0500, m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:
>> Gunther Heiko Hagen:
>
>> >>> Can anyone tell me what is meant by the English idiom, "push
>the door to"
>> >>> please?
>
>> "Graeme":
>> >> Shut that door! Close the door.
>
>> James Harris:
>> > Yes, but possibly not to lock it. In the way I have heard it used
>I
>> > would say that a door which is "pushed to" would be closed but
>not
>> > locked.
>
>> I disagree slightly; it's almost closed, but not latched. It means
>> to close it until the bolt that would latch it touches the
>doorframe.
>
>That's definitely how I take it as well - close the door to just
>before it would latch.

One person has used "locked" and another "latched". To me, "locked"
means it must be opened with a key. "Latched" means it can be opened
by turning the doorknob.

A latched door will not blow open, but can be opened easily by turning
the knob or lifting the latch.

[Peter T. Daniels]

And that's why we have "latch-key kids." Not!

[Robert Bannister]

Agreed. A door that is to, is simply not open, but it is not locked. How
is to remain shut if there is no latch or similar device to hold it in
position? A latch is not the same as a lock.

--
Robert B. born England a long time ago;
Western Australia since 1972

[Tony Cooper]

I'm not sure what your point is...which is not an unusual reaction to
one of your responses.

While the reference is to door keys, a "latchkey kid" is a description
of the child's home situation, not the latch or lock. A latchkey kid
is one whose parent(s) is/are not home when the child returns from
school because the parent(s) is/are unable to be home at that time.

While, like most terms discussed here, the actual origin and date of
orgin cannot be pin-pointed, it seems to be a term that started during
WWII when the father was in the service and the mother worked during
the day. Today, it refers to a child in a family where the only
parent or both parents work.

No key is required to be a latchkey kid. The San Marino (CA) Public
Library has defined a Library Latchkey Child as "one who on a regular
basis is required by their parents or guardian to remain at the public
library for extended periods of time after school in lieu of day
care." It can also describe a child sent to a daycare center or
activity program immediately after school.

In the US, "latch" is not used for house doors as it is in the UK, so
it's not surprising that the term seems to originate from a Canadian
radio program in 1942.

While we don't usually refer to a house door being latched, we do
latch fence gates. Here in Florida, where there are so many yards
that have 6-foot stockade fences with liftable latches, the term is
commonly used for the fence gate closure. (The fences enclose yards
with swimming pools)

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Sunday, May 21, 2017 at 8:14:07 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Sun, 21 May 2017 16:18:01 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >On Sunday, May 21, 2017 at 6:41:23 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
> >> On Sun, 21 May 2017 23:35:18 +0100, HVS <use...@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk>
> >> wrote:
> >
> >> >That's definitely how I take it as well - close the door to just
> >> >before it would latch.
> >>
> >> One person has used "locked" and another "latched". To me, "locked"
> >> means it must be opened with a key. "Latched" means it can be opened
> >> by turning the doorknob.
> >>
> >> A latched door will not blow open, but can be opened easily by turning
> >> the knob or lifting the latch.
> >
> >And that's why we have "latch-key kids." Not!
>
> I'm not sure what your point is...which is not an unusual reaction to
> one of your responses.

Where do you imagine the word "latchkey" came from?

[Tony Cooper]

On Sun, 21 May 2017 20:08:03 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

Wasn't it you who just bitched about Mr Tobin deleting context?

[RH Draney]

Some locks can be unlocked just by turning the knob on a certain side of
the door (this may be to prevent a small child accidentally locking
him/herself into a bathroom, for instance)....

Other doors can have latches that consist merely of a magnet and a
strike plate, and no knob or handle need be manipulated to open the
door...it won't swing open by itself, but a sharp gust of wind might
well be enough to free the latch, and something as small as a cat
leaning against the door is certainly enough to do the trick....r

[Harrison Hill]

Peter your 'And that's why we have "latch-key kids." Not!'
makes no sense to me either.

A door that is "on the latch" in BrE doesn't require a
key to open it; a "latch-key kid" would have a key to let
himself in. "Latch" extends across both meanings.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Hundreds of words about latchkey kids and not a word about latchkeys.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Don't you see the contradiction? Latch -- no key. Latchkey kid -- key.

[Katy Jennison]

On 22/05/2017 12:28, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> Don't you see the contradiction? Latch -- no key. Latchkey kid -- key.
>

Breaking news! Celebrated linguist makes startling discovery that
English usage can be contradictory!

--
Katy Jennison

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Mon, 22 May 2017 04:28:50 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

This gets a trifle complicated and confusing.

OED:
latch-key, n.

Originally: a key used to draw back the night-latch of a door. Now
usually: the key of a spring door-lock. Freq. allusive and attrib.,
with reference to the use of a latch-key by a younger member of a
household (esp. one who comes home from school when his parents are
still at work) or a lodger.

latch, n.1

2. A fastening for a door or gate, so contrived as to admit of its
being opened from the outside. It now usually consists of a small
bar which falls or slides into a catch, and is lifted or drawn by
means of a thumb-lever, string, etc. passed through the door.

Now also, a small kind of spring-lock for a front-door (more fully
night-latch) which is opened from the outside by means of a key. on
the latch: (said of a door) fastened with a latch only; so off the
latch, unlatched, ajar.

This discussion is reminding me of the recent one about missiles:
ballistic, guided, cruise, etc.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Seems like one needs to be a celebrated linguist and not a retired surgical
supply salesman to discover that, innit.

[Peter T. Daniels]

We'd need to know what "night-latch of a door" meant. Over Here, we usually
lock up _more_ securely at night, i.e. not with just a latch (mng. 2 below para. 1).

> usually: the key of a spring door-lock. Freq. allusive and attrib.,
> with reference to the use of a latch-key by a younger member of a
> household (esp. one who comes home from school when his parents are
> still at work) or a lodger.
>
> latch, n.1
>
> 2. A fastening for a door or gate, so contrived as to admit of its
> being opened from the outside. It now usually consists of a small
> bar which falls or slides into a catch, and is lifted or drawn by
> means of a thumb-lever, string, etc. passed through the door.
>
> Now also, a small kind of spring-lock for a front-door (more fully
> night-latch) which is opened from the outside by means of a key. on
> the latch: (said of a door) fastened with a latch only; so off the
> latch, unlatched, ajar.

I've never encountered this second paragraph as applying to locks in AmE.

> This discussion is reminding me of the recent one about missiles:
> ballistic, guided, cruise, etc.

There was a also a discussion of "on the latch" with the opposite meaning from "fastened with
a latch only", viz., not fastened at all.

[Janet]

In article <9b94ich0de8d0b8h4...@4ax.com>, tonycooper214
@gmail.com says...

>
> On Sun, 21 May 2017 16:18:01 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >On Sunday, May 21, 2017 at 6:41:23 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
> >> On Sun, 21 May 2017 23:35:18 +0100, HVS <use...@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk>
> >> wrote:
> >
> >> >That's definitely how I take it as well - close the door to just
> >> >before it would latch.
> >>
> >> One person has used "locked" and another "latched". To me, "locked"
> >> means it must be opened with a key. "Latched" means it can be opened
> >> by turning the doorknob.
> >>
> >> A latched door will not blow open, but can be opened easily by turning
> >> the knob or lifting the latch.
> >
> >And that's why we have "latch-key kids." Not!
>
> I'm not sure what your point is...which is not an unusual reaction to
> one of your responses.
>
> While the reference is to door keys, a "latchkey kid" is a description
> of the child's home situation, not the latch or lock. A latchkey kid
> is one whose parent(s) is/are not home when the child returns from
> school because the parent(s) is/are unable to be home at that time.

I was one (without the key; only because our door was never locked),
and I loathed every aspect of it. Coming home to an empty house in
exactly the same state we left it that morning; cold, unlit, messy,
unmade beds, last night's fire gone out, last night's dirty dishes in
the sink. I had to sort it all out, mind my little sister, fetch our
baby brother from daycare, feed bath and bed him until our widowed
mother arrived home from work exhausted and threw a meal together.

My sister's daughter was a real latchkey kid, from age 5 letting
herself into their empty London flat after school, with the key kept on
a bit of dirty string round her neck. It's on show in her age 7 school
photo, looking like the grubby poster girl for "urban neglect"

I swore our kids would never come home to an empty house, and paid
someone kind and homely to be there when they came home from school,
until I got home from work.


Janet.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Mon, 22 May 2017 06:33:59 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

I have know idea whether, or how often, that is used of locks in today's
BrE.

>
>> This discussion is reminding me of the recent one about missiles:
>> ballistic, guided, cruise, etc.
>
>There was a also a discussion of "on the latch" with the opposite meaning from "fastened with
>a latch only", viz., not fastened at all.

[Tony Cooper]

PTD's alleged "point" fails where he attributes the term "latchkey
kid" to the key as if the term couldn't exist without a lockable door
that is opened by a key.

That is not the meaning of the term. The term exists to describe the
family conditions of the kid. As I explained in my original post, a
"latchkey kid" is one whose parent or parents (or anyone else in the
family) cannot be home when the kid comes home from school.

In the original use, the Canadian writer referred to a kid with a
father in the service and a mother who works. Now, it is used to
describe a kid whose parent or parents both work.

It's not the key or the fact that there's a locked door that makes the
term applicable to a kid. A kid with a stay-at-home mother or other
person in the house when he/she is home from school is not a "latchkey
kid" even if that kid carries a housekey.

Why PTD chose to bring up "latchkey kids" in a discussion about the
meaning of "latched", and whether or not it means "locked", is yet
another failing of his "point".

Nonetheless, we can expect that PTD is now busy digging a hole and
fitting the goalposts into that hole. That's PTD.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Can you really not comprehend that the term "latchkey kid" could not have come
into existence if the word "latchkey" did not already exist with a familiar meaning?

> Why PTD chose to bring up "latchkey kids" in a discussion about the
> meaning of "latched", and whether or not it means "locked", is yet
> another failing of his "point".
>
> Nonetheless, we can expect that PTD is now busy digging a hole and
> fitting the goalposts into that hole. That's PTD.

I have to fill in so many holes after you dig up not just the goalposts but the
entire end zone that it's exhausting.

[Peter Moylan]

On 2017-May-23 00:08, Janet wrote:

> I was one (without the key; only because our door was never locked),
> and I loathed every aspect of it. Coming home to an empty house in
> exactly the same state we left it that morning; cold, unlit, messy,
> unmade beds, last night's fire gone out, last night's dirty dishes in
> the sink. I had to sort it all out, mind my little sister, fetch our
> baby brother from daycare, feed bath and bed him until our widowed
> mother arrived home from work exhausted and threw a meal together.
>
> My sister's daughter was a real latchkey kid, from age 5 letting
> herself into their empty London flat after school, with the key kept on
> a bit of dirty string round her neck. It's on show in her age 7 school
> photo, looking like the grubby poster girl for "urban neglect"
>
> I swore our kids would never come home to an empty house, and paid
> someone kind and homely to be there when they came home from school,
> until I got home from work.

I hope that PTD has read this (he probably has) and understood it (he
probably hasn't). The essence of a latchkey kid is coming home to an
empty house. There is zero connection with the phrase "push a door to".

[Peter T. Daniels]

Since it was I who called the group's attention to the phrase "latchkey kid,"
the suggestion that I don't know what it means is ludicrous.

The relation to the meaning of "push to" is that "latch" was invoked in an
attempt to come up with a possible meaning for a phrase that few people have
admitted to being familiar with; someone (correctly) said that latches don't
require keys (nowadays); but the existence of the phrase "latchkey kid" shows
that at some point in time there was a thing called a "latchkey."

Either you don't read a thread and dip in occasionally, or you allowed yourself
to be buffaloed by Tony Cooper's bizarrely irrelevant dissertation on the
meaning of "latchkey kid." (Which, however, did provide Janet an opportunity to
air an unpleasant aspect of her childhood.)

If you'd read the thread, you wouldn't have necessitated my recapping the entire matter.

[David Kleinecke]

To me - in my speech - a latch can't have a key.

But I have known the meme (trope?) "latchkey kid" for many years.
I treat it as an idiom which came to me from another dialect of
English.

But such things are not surprising. I've been hearing about
"doornails" all my life.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

Dead doornails do exist on older wooden doors.

OED:

door-nail, n.

A large-headed nail, with which doors were formerly studded for
strength, protection, or ornamentation: now chiefly in the
alliterative phr. "as dead, deaf, dumb, dour as a door-nail"

https://thecraftsmanblog.com/dead-as-a-doornail/

By Scott Sidler
Just a little fun mid-week post about something I’ve been thinking
about. Who hasn’t used the phrase “Dead as a doornail” at some point
in their life? And how many of us actually know where the term comes
from? That’s what I thought.

Well, as it turns out we may have medieval carpenters to thank for
the phrase. Dead as a doornail goes back to the 14th century when
doornails were as common as…well…doors.

In the days before screws carpenters would hammer a nail through a
piece of wood and then flatten the end over (a technique called
clinching) to keep the nail securely attached. When this is done the
nail is said to be “dead” because it cannot be used again. Doornails
were often subjected to this type of treatment. And because of the
heft of these old doors doornails were quite large and visible. The
saying eventually spread outside the carpenter’s shops and stuck
partly because of its truth and party because its just so darn fun
to say.

Also:
http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/as-dead-as-a-doornail.html

[Tony Cooper]

We certainly know there was, or is, a thing called a "latchkey". In
the US we call it a "door key", "house key" or simply a "key".
However, the *term* "latchkey kid" is specifically about the kid's
home situation.

>
>Either you don't read a thread and dip in occasionally, or you allowed yourself
>to be buffaloed by Tony Cooper's bizarrely irrelevant dissertation on the
>meaning of "latchkey kid."

Irrelevant? It described the meaning of the term "latchkey kid"
exactly. The word "latchkey" never needed explanation.

>(Which, however, did provide Janet an opportunity to
>air an unpleasant aspect of her childhood.)

And to point out that she didn't have a latchkey when she was a
latchkey kid. Many of the "latchkey kids" of the 1940s when the term
came into use came home to unlocked houses, but were still "latchkey
kids".

[David Kleinecke]

I suspect that account is a modern "reconstruction" and not
to be trusted.

[Whiskers]

A night-latch is more secure than a latch; the former requires a key for
the door to be opened from the outside. A night-latch is not as secure
as a deadlock, but is a lot more secure than a mere latch.

Many modern dwellings do seem to depend only on a night-latch for their
security. Mine doesn't.

I think the original purpose of the night-latch was to allow rich people
to let themselves into their homes if returning so late that the
servants would all be in bed and so not ready to open the door promptly;
last person in would be responsible for setting the deadlocks and bolts
and so on to achieve maximum security.

A latchkey is the sort of key used to operate a night-latch. It is
quite small and slim, being stamped and cut from a sheet of metal, and
so won't be as lumpy or heavy as the key for a mortice deadlock. This
would make it more acceptable to a fashionable person wearing evening
dress (which in many periods tends to lack pocket space).

When referring to it, we don't need to specify that the latchkey is for
a night-latch; no other sort of latch requires a key.

Night-latches are often colloquially known as 'Yale locks' even if made
by someone else (and ignoring the other sorts of lock made by Yale).

>> usually: the key of a spring door-lock. Freq. allusive and attrib.,
>> with reference to the use of a latch-key by a younger member of a
>> household (esp. one who comes home from school when his parents are
>> still at work) or a lodger.
>>
>> latch, n.1
>>
>> 2. A fastening for a door or gate, so contrived as to admit of its
>> being opened from the outside. It now usually consists of a small
>> bar which falls or slides into a catch, and is lifted or drawn by
>> means of a thumb-lever, string, etc. passed through the door.
>>
>> Now also, a small kind of spring-lock for a front-door (more fully
>> night-latch) which is opened from the outside by means of a key. on
>> the latch: (said of a door) fastened with a latch only; so off the
>> latch, unlatched, ajar.
>
> I've never encountered this second paragraph as applying to locks in AmE.

That paragraph is possibly misleading. A door secured by a night-latch
would not be described as 'being on the latch'; it would probably be
described as 'locked'. A door that is 'off the latch' is not fastened
or secured in any way and will probably swing in any breeze or draught
(at least until such movement results in the latch engaging).

>> This discussion is reminding me of the recent one about missiles:
>> ballistic, guided, cruise, etc.
>
> There was a also a discussion of "on the latch" with the opposite
> meaning from "fastened with a latch only", viz., not fastened at all.

I'd use 'latched' to mean 'fastened but not locked', ie not needing a
key for access. Most internal doors and cupboard doors are latched to
keep them shut.

--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Mon, 22 May 2017 19:53:57 +0100, Whiskers <catwh...@operamail.com>
wrote:

Agreed. They are also referred to by their mechanism: "cylinder locks".

[Robert Bannister]

For one meaning of "latch", I agree, but in the phrases "on/off the
latch", it means something different. I had never heard of "night
latches" before, but Mr Google knew all about them, and when I clicked
on Images, I got pages of pictures of Yale-type locks and deadlocks.

"Latch key", however, got very few pictures of actual keys, which
surprised me a bit. It was an expression that was fairly common in my
childhood, and I'm only surprised that I never asked what the difference
was between "latch key" and "(house) key". I suspect dialect is involved
and that latches and latch keys were only talked about by my
Leicestershire grandparents and their circle.

To my dismay, I found Google Images did not show me one picture of what
I call a "latch", which was a piece of metal going through the door with
a sort of spoon shaped piece on one side, and a curved, almost pointed
bit at the other side where it actually lifted the latch or bar. That
sort must be hopelessly old-fashioned now. In fact, I think they were
called "latch and ?" - I can't remember what the ? was.

>
> But I have known the meme (trope?) "latchkey kid" for many years.
> I treat it as an idiom which came to me from another dialect of
> English.
>
> But such things are not surprising. I've been hearing about
> "doornails" all my life.
>

[Tony Cooper]

This a common style used on wooden fences in Florida.
http://www.havuzkimyasalim.com/wp-content/uploads/v/v-marvelous-gate-hardware-thumb-latch-parts-720x480.jpg

The opposite side of the gate would have:

http://shop.360yardware.com/images/double-4.jpg

Depressing the curved thumb rest at the top lifts the bar on the other
side.

When the gate is closed, the weight of the bar closes the latch.

Some latches have a simple lever on the outside instead of the handle
show.

[David Kleinecke]

What we used to call a "portagee gate" was a gate in a barbed
wire fence made out of more barbed wire ending in a free-standing
post. The gate was "latched" by putting the lower end of the
free post into a loop of barbed wire at the bottom of the fixed
post where the fence resumes, pulling the stick upright and
latching the gate by dropping another loop of barbed wire over
the upper end of the free post.

[Charles Bishop]

In article <c8a41eba-ac77-426a...@googlegroups.com>,

For me (US) a gate latch doesn't have a key. There is a lock for a house
door that I'd consider to have a latch - I think it's a Yale lock.
Another name for it might be a "snap latch" The "lock" part is on the
door, and it has a tongue that will fit into a hole in a piece of metal
in the jamb.

When this happens the door cannot be pulled open, it's "on the latch".
You can open the door though by turning a small knob on the body of the
lock. This pulls the latch out of the piece of metal on the jamb and the
door can be pulled open.

However if you don't want miscreants to come in the door, there is a
keyway on the opposite side (inside) of the door. Turning the key means
the small knob cannot be turned and so the door cannot be opened from
the outside.

So, a latch doesn't have a key, or it does if it's part of a lock system.

[snip]

--
charles

[Charles Bishop]

In article <eohjbe...@mid.individual.net>,

I dunno either but a quick Google on "gate latch with handle" led me to
lots of images, one of which led me to this company. See if there's
something there for you.

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/492299802986471334/

[snip]

charles

[Charles Bishop]

In article <fi67ictkf53878dh7...@4ax.com>,

That's like the one I was trying to find.

>
> Depressing the curved thumb rest at the top lifts the bar on the other
> side.
>
> When the gate is closed, the weight of the bar closes the latch.
>
> Some latches have a simple lever on the outside instead of the handle
> show.

--

charles

[Charles Bishop]

In article <slrnoi6cu5.1...@ID-107770.user.individual.net>,
Whiskers <catwh...@operamail.com> wrote:


[snip]

>
> A night-latch is more secure than a latch; the former requires a key for
> the door to be opened from the outside. A night-latch is not as secure
> as a deadlock, but is a lot more secure than a mere latch.
>
> Many modern dwellings do seem to depend only on a night-latch for their
> security. Mine doesn't.

Does your night-latch require a key to open it? Once the night-latch is
set can someone outside open the door without using a key?

>
> I think the original purpose of the night-latch was to allow rich people
> to let themselves into their homes if returning so late that the
> servants would all be in bed and so not ready to open the door promptly;
> last person in would be responsible for setting the deadlocks and bolts
> and so on to achieve maximum security.

This setup is different from most front doors of houses here, but it
could be used.

There is usually a "doorknob" on the front door. This can be locked,
either with a key, from the outside, or from this inside, but turning a
knob or pushing a button on the doorknob. This device is properly called
a "lockset" (Interior doors will have doorknobs without a locking
mechanism - an exception being a bathroom door)

There are also deadbolts on an entry door. These are properly called
deadbolt locks, which I assume are the same as your "deadlock". They are
more secure against kicking a door in, as they have a "bolt" of metal
that goes further into the door jamb, and the area around this is
reinforced by metal. They have a keyway on the outside, and either a
knob, or a second keyway on the inside.

I assume your "bolts" are what I would call "surface bolts". These
attach to the inside of an entry door, at the top and bottom of the
door, on the lock edge, and the bolt will slide into and out of a piece
of metal, on the top jamb and on the floor. These are additional
protection against using force to push the door in. I've only seen a few
of these on entry doors, but they are common on one of the doors of a
pair of French doors. These are usually used to lead from one of the
rooms at the rear of a house to the garden or yard.
>

[snip]

--
charles

[Charles Bishop]

In article <taf3ic94k6mm1k9lc...@4ax.com>,
Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, 22 May 2017 02:01:38 +1000, Peter Moylan
> <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>
> >On 2017-May-21 21:41, James Harris wrote:
> >> On 21/05/2017 12:15, Graeme wrote:
> >>> In message <ofrsev$5em$3...@dont-email.me>, Gunther Heiko Hagen
> >>> <gunth...@quantserve.de> writes
> >>>
> >>>> Can anyone tell me what is meant by the English idiom, "push the door
> >>>> to"
> >>>> please?
> >>>
> >>> Shut that door! Close the door.
> >>
> >> Yes, but possibly not to lock it. In the way I have heard it used I
> >> would say that a door which is "pushed to" would be closed but not
> >> locked. It might be to shut out a draft from an internal door, for
> >> example, and be especially in contrast to being "ajar".
> >>
> >> There is also group alt.usage.english. Copied them in and set followups.
> >> Would be interested to hear what others think of the idiom.
> >
> >Complete agreement. To push a door to means to close it, although not
> >necessarily to lock it.
>
> This American agrees, but would not expect to hear/see that
> construction from another American.

I think I do, but, perhaps not. For an interior door, with no "locking"
mechanism, but with a doorknob with a latch that engages hardware in the
jamb, "pushing the door to" would mean closing the door until it reaches
the door stop". This means that the doorknob latch would engage in the
jamb, but the door would not be locked.

"Push the door to" is the same for me as "close the door".

--
Charles

[Charles Bishop]

In article <ofsvq...@news4.newsguy.com>,
RH Draney <dado...@cox.net> wrote:

> On 5/21/2017 9:17 AM, Tony Cooper wrote:
> > On Mon, 22 May 2017 02:01:38 +1000, Peter Moylan
> > <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >> On 2017-May-21 21:41, James Harris wrote:
> >>> On 21/05/2017 12:15, Graeme wrote:
> >>>> In message <ofrsev$5em$3...@dont-email.me>, Gunther Heiko Hagen
> >>>> <gunth...@quantserve.de> writes
> >>>>
> >>>>> Can anyone tell me what is meant by the English idiom, "push the door
> >>>>> to"
> >>>>> please?
> >>>>
> >>>> Shut that door! Close the door.
> >>>
> >>> Yes, but possibly not to lock it. In the way I have heard it used I
> >>> would say that a door which is "pushed to" would be closed but not
> >>> locked. It might be to shut out a draft from an internal door, for
> >>> example, and be especially in contrast to being "ajar".
> >>

> >> Complete agreement. To push a door to means to close it, although not
> >> necessarily to lock it.
> >
> > This American agrees, but would not expect to hear/see that
> > construction from another American.
>

> This American heard "pull the door to" regularly as a child, but can't
> recall ever hearing it with "push"...I also remember the question "is
> the door to?"...r

I might have heard "pull the door to" as well, and not "push" but
wouldn't have heard (or don't remember) "is the door to?"

--
c

[Mark Brader]

R.H. Draney:

> > This American heard "pull the door to" regularly as a child, but can't
> > recall ever hearing it with "push"...

Charles Bishop:
> I might have heard "pull the door to" as well, and not "push"...

Well, that would depend on which side of the door you're on!
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "It is difficult to make predictions,
m...@vex.net | especially about the future." --Danish saying

[Tony Cooper]

I'd use simply "close the door" or "shut the door". Or, maybe, "push
the door closed/shut". Never "to".

[Tony Cooper]

On Mon, 22 May 2017 20:39:27 -0700, Charles Bishop
<ctbi...@earthlink.net> wrote:

>In article <slrnoi6cu5.1...@ID-107770.user.individual.net>,
> Whiskers <catwh...@operamail.com> wrote:
>
>
>[snip]
>>
>> A night-latch is more secure than a latch; the former requires a key for
>> the door to be opened from the outside. A night-latch is not as secure
>> as a deadlock, but is a lot more secure than a mere latch.
>>
>> Many modern dwellings do seem to depend only on a night-latch for their
>> security. Mine doesn't.
>
>Does your night-latch require a key to open it? Once the night-latch is
>set can someone outside open the door without using a key?

When a "night latch" is used, I think of a device like a chain or
security latch that is in addition to the door lock. Hotel rooms have
a night latch like this:

https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/02/01/a7/31/latch-your-door.jpg
that is engaged at night.

[bill van]

In article <BfudnceGRbGDLL7E...@giganews.com>,

m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:

> R.H. Draney:
> > > This American heard "pull the door to" regularly as a child, but can't
> > > recall ever hearing it with "push"...
>
> Charles Bishop:
> > I might have heard "pull the door to" as well, and not "push"...
>
> Well, that would depend on which side of the door you're on!

Yes. It's an open and shut case.
--
bill

[Lewis]

In message <ofru7b$clc$1...@dont-email.me> James Harris <james.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 21/05/2017 12:15, Graeme wrote:
>> In message <ofrsev$5em$3...@dont-email.me>, Gunther Heiko Hagen
>> <gunth...@quantserve.de> writes
>>
>>> Can anyone tell me what is meant by the English idiom, "push the door to"
>>> please?
>>
>> Shut that door! Close the door.

> Yes, but possibly not to lock it. In the way I have heard it used I
> would say that a door which is "pushed to" would be closed but not
> locked. It might be to shut out a draft from an internal door, for
> example, and be especially in contrast to being "ajar".

Heck, it might not even be latched.

(AmE latched, which means the spring-loaded piston in the door has
engaged with the receiving hole in the door frame and no BrE latched
which seems to mean locked)

> There is also group alt.usage.english.

Bunch of punters.


--
"You're just impressed by any pretty girl who can walk and talk." "She
doesn't have to talk."

[Ross]

On Sunday, May 21, 2017 at 11:41:45 PM UTC+12, James Harris wrote:
> On 21/05/2017 12:15, Graeme wrote:
> > In message <ofrsev$5em$3...@dont-email.me>, Gunther Heiko Hagen
> > <gunth...@quantserve.de> writes
> >
> >> Can anyone tell me what is meant by the English idiom, "push the door to"
> >> please?
> >
> > Shut that door! Close the door.
>
> Yes, but possibly not to lock it. In the way I have heard it used I
> would say that a door which is "pushed to" would be closed but not
> locked. It might be to shut out a draft from an internal door, for
> example, and be especially in contrast to being "ajar".

I agree. It's not part of my native NAmEng, but I hear it enough to
understand it. It would often be used when the door is already partly
closed, to push/pull it to would mean to move it to a position of
complete closure, regardless of whether there was a latch or lock.

>
> There is also group alt.usage.english. Copied them in and set followups.
> Would be interested to hear what others think of the idiom.
>

OED:
to (adv.): 1. Expressing motion resulting in arrival; to a place etc.
implied or indicated by the context. (Obs.)
2a. Towards a thing or person implied
2b. In one direction (as contrasted with the opposite one). Now only in
to and fro.
...
4. Expressing contact: So as to come close against something; esp. with
vbs. forming phrases denoting shutting or closing: see the vbs. Now arch.
and colloq.
1898 G. B. Shaw Arms & Man in Plays Pleasant & Unpleasant 6 She goes out..and pulls the outside shutters to.
...
8. Used idiomatically with many verbs, as bring, come, go, lay, lie, etc.:
see the verbs.
This is where we find "come to" (regain consciousness), as well as the
nautical "come to/lie to/heave to" referring to bringing a ship
to a standstill.

[GordonD]

Not for me. "Push the door to" is just short of "close the door" in
that any latch mechanism hasn't engaged.
--
Gordon Davie
Edinburgh, Scotland

[Whiskers]

On 2017-05-23, Charles Bishop <ctbi...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> In article <slrnoi6cu5.1...@ID-107770.user.individual.net>,
> Whiskers <catwh...@operamail.com> wrote:
>
>
> [snip]
>>
>> A night-latch is more secure than a latch; the former requires a key for
>> the door to be opened from the outside. A night-latch is not as secure
>> as a deadlock, but is a lot more secure than a mere latch.
>>
>> Many modern dwellings do seem to depend only on a night-latch for their
>> security. Mine doesn't.
>
> Does your night-latch require a key to open it? Once the night-latch is
> set can someone outside open the door without using a key?

Yes, a night-latch requires a key for access from outside.
Specifically, it requires a latchkey. Each latchkey has to match the
locking mechanism of the particular door concerned. When set, a door
secured using a night-latch cannot be opened from outside without using
a key (or force or some other illegitimate means). A night-latch cannot
be operated from the outside other than by using the correct key.

A night-latch will often have knobs or levers on the inside by means of
which it can be set or unset (and sometimes, set so that the external
key is disabled). There will be either a keyhole or a lever or knob by
means of which the door can be opened from within.

>>
>> I think the original purpose of the night-latch was to allow rich people
>> to let themselves into their homes if returning so late that the
>> servants would all be in bed and so not ready to open the door promptly;
>> last person in would be responsible for setting the deadlocks and bolts
>> and so on to achieve maximum security.
>
> This setup is different from most front doors of houses here, but it
> could be used.
>
> There is usually a "doorknob" on the front door. This can be locked,
> either with a key, from the outside, or from this inside, but turning a
> knob or pushing a button on the doorknob. This device is properly called
> a "lockset" (Interior doors will have doorknobs without a locking
> mechanism - an exception being a bathroom door)

I've encountered such things in the doors of hotel rooms, and rarely in
the sort of 'front door' fitted by dubious double-glazing companies. I
wouldn't want to rely on one.

> There are also deadbolts on an entry door. These are properly called
> deadbolt locks, which I assume are the same as your "deadlock". They are
> more secure against kicking a door in, as they have a "bolt" of metal
> that goes further into the door jamb, and the area around this is
> reinforced by metal. They have a keyway on the outside, and either a
> knob, or a second keyway on the inside.

'Over here' a deadlock would require operation using the key from either
side, and would not work as a self-setting latch. The 'dead' part of
the name refers to the bolt not being moveable by external interference
(unlike a night-latch which might release itself under pressure or by
sliding a flexible shim along it's angled face).

> I assume your "bolts" are what I would call "surface bolts". These
> attach to the inside of an entry door, at the top and bottom of the
> door, on the lock edge, and the bolt will slide into and out of a piece
> of metal, on the top jamb and on the floor. These are additional
> protection against using force to push the door in. I've only seen a few
> of these on entry doors, but they are common on one of the doors of a
> pair of French doors. These are usually used to lead from one of the
> rooms at the rear of a house to the garden or yard.
>>
>
> [snip]
>

Locks and bolts are either 'rim-' or 'mortice-'. A mortice-lock or bolt
is contained within the thickness of the door, a rim-lock is fixed to
the surface of the door (usually on the inside). Mortice locks are
usually considered more secure. Night-latches are almost always
rim-locks, ie surface fitted, although the key usually operates a
'cylinder' which is embedded in the door. Mortice bolts are unusual,
but can be found in public buildings and some grander houses. They are
most likely to be found in the leaf of a double-door that has the latch
or lock fitted to the other leaf.

Insurance companies often insist on the fitting and use of a 'five lever
mortice deadlock' on every door to the outside, as a very minimum.
There are locks which combine both night-latch and deadlock features in
one mechanism, and can operate in both modes or as deadlocks only, using
a single key of the latchkey sort.

[Whiskers]

That's a variation on the 'door chain'. It isn't a lock or a latch, as
such; it allows the door to be opened a little way so that small items
can be passed or a conversation can take place but makes it difficult for
the person outside to open the door far enough to gain entry. It
doesn't set itself automatically as a latch does, the occupant has to
make a deliberate effort to arrange the parts appropriately.

[Whiskers]

On 2017-05-23, Robert Bannister <robertb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
> On 23/5/17 12:28 am, David Kleinecke wrote:
>> On Monday, May 22, 2017 at 9:17:08 AM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>> On Monday, May 22, 2017 at 12:07:28 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>> On 2017-May-23 00:08, Janet wrote:

[...]

> To my dismay, I found Google Images did not show me one picture of what
> I call a "latch", which was a piece of metal going through the door with
> a sort of spoon shaped piece on one side, and a curved, almost pointed
> bit at the other side where it actually lifted the latch or bar. That
> sort must be hopelessly old-fashioned now. In fact, I think they were
> called "latch and ?" - I can't remember what the ? was.

Are you thinking of this sort of thing?
<http://www.diy.com/departments/galvanised-steel-suffolk-gate-latch-l205mm/30026_BQ.prd>.
I'm familiar with those used to fasten house and out-house doors or in
the servant quarters of grand old houses, and on the doors into walled
gardens. I'd never associated them with Suffolk in particular, they're
pretty ubiquitous. Some are made of cast iron, occasionally they're
wooden, and I've seen posh ones in brass. Sizes vary a lot.

Would the phrase be 'latch and lifter'? To differentiate that sort from
the cheaper arrangement with a bit of string threaded through a hole in
the door to lift the latch from the other side.

[Charles Bishop]

In article <BfudnceGRbGDLL7E...@giganews.com>,
m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:

> R.H. Draney:
> > > This American heard "pull the door to" regularly as a child, but can't
> > > recall ever hearing it with "push"...
>
> Charles Bishop:
> > I might have heard "pull the door to" as well, and not "push"...
>
> Well, that would depend on which side of the door you're on!

Hmm, just to be contrary, I could hear ". . .pull the door to . . ."
when I was on the push side in the case of "Charles, when you go through
the door (from the kitchen to the dining room, say) pull the door to
after you."

Still this is a made up example, and it's when I hear the phrase, not
when I use it, so perhaps your "correction" is valid. Still, "push the
door to" sounds odd to my ear, from which I deduce it wasn't used where
I would have become used to it.

--
charles

[Charles Bishop]

In article <eoikjl...@mid.individual.net>,

We need to remember this if we are ever on a multinational team that is
tasked with 1) Recovering the Rare Ruby of Reality, 2) Rescuing the
Princess Held Against Her Will, 3) Retrieving the Important Document and
the like. Of course, the different definition could make for an
important Plot Point, when the misunderstanding of each other's English
results in a moment of Tension (but soon resolved with daring do.

--
charles

[Charles Bishop]

In article <g2h7ic57ul2qen6i2...@4ax.com>,

Whisker's post contained several names for locks/latches/and the like
that are probably similar to what's over here. It might take me a little
while to associate his word for the object I know as something else, but
his make sense as well.

Charles

[Tak To]

On 5/22/2017 2:53 PM, Whiskers wrote:
> On 2017-05-22, Peter T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

>> [...]

>> We'd need to know what "night-latch of a door" meant. Over Here, we
>> usually lock up _more_ securely at night, i.e. not with just a latch
>> (mng. 2 below para. 1).
>
> A night-latch is more secure than a latch; the former requires a key for
> the door to be opened from the outside. A night-latch is not as secure

> as a deadlock, [...]

The above does not really explain (to an AmE speaker)
what a "night-latch" is.

A "night-latch" is simply a "((exterior) door) lock"
in AmE, whereas a "deadlock" is most commonly called a
"deadbolt (lock)".

A night-latch/"(door) lock[1]" has a spring-loaded latch
bolt that is engaged automatically when the door is closed.
The bolt is disengaged by a lever[2] on the inside and by
a key[3] on the outside. The deadlock/deadbolt is the same
except that one must engage the bolt manually[4].

[1] prototypical; if further qualified, the structure
and functionality can be quite different (e.g.,
deadbolt lock)
[2] or knob, etc
[3] or key + lever/knob, etc
[4] in AmE, a deadbolt can also be one that can be operated
on only one side and/or without a keying mechanism

Some (AmE) door locks can be put into a mode in which one can
disengage the bolt from the outside without a key. I am not
sure if the definition of a "night-latch" precludes this feature.

One should not confuse a (BrE) "deadlocking night-latch" with
a deadlock/deadbolt. "Deadlocking" refers to a mode in which
one has to use a key to disengage even when one is on the
inside. The feature does not seem to be common in the US.
Instead, in the US there are "double cylinder deadbolts",
with "double cylinder" meaning that the bolt can be disengaged
only by using a key, inside or outside. (There is only
one mode.)

> [A night-latch is] but is a lot more secure than a mere
> latch.

A "door latch" in AmE can refer to a rather wide variety of
contraptions; such as

http://www.doorknobsonline.com/Door+Hardware/Door+Latches/_/N-category+Door_Latches
https://www.pinterest.com/explore/door-latches/

Note that most of these are quite different from (AmE) "door
locks". In AmE, a door lock that has no keying mechanism is
typically called a "closet/hall door lock".

I am not sure if BrE "(door) latch" refers to the same group
of things as in AmE or not.

----- -----

> Many modern dwellings do seem to depend only on a night-latch for their
> security. Mine doesn't.

In the US, many (most?) (exterior) door have a deadbolt
lock in addition to the (spring-loaded bolt) door lock.
Often they are sold as a set with the same key, or are
actually integrated together.

----- -----

Searching for images of "night-latch" using US-based
Google, I notice that most of them are rim locks -- i.e.,
locks that are mounted on the surface of the door as
opposed to being _inside_ the door core such as the
case of a mortise/mortice lock or cylindrical lock.
In the US, most door locks nowadays are cylindrical
locks. I wonder if the popularity of rim locks in
Br contributes to the BrE usage of "latch (n)" in places
where the AmE would use "lock (n)".

--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ta...@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr

[Tak To]

On 5/22/2017 2:53 PM, Whiskers wrote:

> [...]

> I think the original purpose of the night-latch was to allow rich people
> to let themselves into their homes if returning so late that the
> servants would all be in bed and so not ready to open the door promptly;
> last person in would be responsible for setting the deadlocks and bolts
> and so on to achieve maximum security.
>
> A latchkey is the sort of key used to operate a night-latch. It is
> quite small and slim, being stamped and cut from a sheet of metal, and
> so won't be as lumpy or heavy as the key for a mortice deadlock. This
> would make it more acceptable to a fashionable person wearing evening
> dress (which in many periods tends to lack pocket space).

Interesting. This seems to imply that the self-latching
mechanism and the smaller key technology came about at
the same time.

[Tak To]

On 5/22/2017 2:53 PM, Whiskers wrote:
> [...]

> Night-latches are often colloquially known as 'Yale locks' even if made
> by someone else (and ignoring the other sorts of lock made by Yale).

Interestingly, a Yale Lock website defines a night-latch as
a rim lock (i.e., one that is mounted on the surface of
the door instead of being _inside_ the door core such as the
case of a mortise/mortice lock or cylindrical lock) and says
nothing of the self-latching mechanism.

http://www.yalelock.com/en/yale/com/about-yale/glossary-of-terms/

However, judging from the other terms, the explanations
on that site are not always to be trusted.

[Jerry Friedman]

On 5/22/17 12:53 PM, Whiskers wrote:
> On 2017-05-22, Peter T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

>> On Monday, May 22, 2017 at 8:49:00 AM UTC-4, PeterWD wrote:
>>> On Mon, 22 May 2017 04:28:50 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
>>> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Monday, May 22, 2017 at 3:25:26 AM UTC-4, Harrison Hill wrote:
>>>>> On Monday, 22 May 2017 04:08:06 UTC+1, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>>>>> On Sunday, May 21, 2017 at 8:14:07 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sun, 21 May 2017 16:18:01 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
>>>>>>> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sunday, May 21, 2017 at 6:41:23 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 21 May 2017 23:35:18 +0100, HVS
>>>>>>>>> <use...@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That's definitely how I take it as well - close the door
>>>>>>>>>> to just before it would latch.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> One person has used "locked" and another "latched". To me,
>>>>>>>>> "locked" means it must be opened with a key. "Latched"
>>>>>>>>> means it can be opened by turning the doorknob.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A latched door will not blow open, but can be opened easily
>>>>>>>>> by turning the knob or lifting the latch.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And that's why we have "latch-key kids." Not!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm not sure what your point is...which is not an unusual
>>>>>>> reaction to one of your responses.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Where do you imagine the word "latchkey" came from?
>>>>>
>>>>> Peter your 'And that's why we have "latch-key kids." Not!' makes
>>>>> no sense to me either.
>>>>>
>>>>> A door that is "on the latch" in BrE doesn't require a key to open
>>>>> it; a "latch-key kid" would have a key to let himself in. "Latch"
>>>>> extends across both meanings.
>>>>
>>>> Don't you see the contradiction? Latch -- no key. Latchkey kid --
>>>> key.
>>>
>>> This gets a trifle complicated and confusing.
>>>
>>> OED: latch-key, n.
>>>
>>> Originally: a key used to draw back the night-latch of a door.
>>> Now

>>
>> We'd need to know what "night-latch of a door" meant. Over Here, we
>> usually lock up _more_ securely at night, i.e. not with just a latch
>> (mng. 2 below para. 1).
>
> A night-latch is more secure than a latch; the former requires a key for
> the door to be opened from the outside. A night-latch is not as secure

> as a deadlock, but is a lot more secure than a mere latch.

>
> Many modern dwellings do seem to depend only on a night-latch for their
> security. Mine doesn't.
>

> I think the original purpose of the night-latch was to allow rich people
> to let themselves into their homes if returning so late that the
> servants would all be in bed and so not ready to open the door promptly;
> last person in would be responsible for setting the deadlocks and bolts
> and so on to achieve maximum security.
>
> A latchkey is the sort of key used to operate a night-latch. It is
> quite small and slim, being stamped and cut from a sheet of metal, and
> so won't be as lumpy or heavy as the key for a mortice deadlock. This
> would make it more acceptable to a fashionable person wearing evening
> dress (which in many periods tends to lack pocket space).

My front door has the kind of set-up Tak To described. There's a knob
with a cylinder lock and above it there's a deadbolt, mortised into both
the door and the jamb, with a cylinder lock that uses the same small
sheet-metal key as the knob. The deadbolt is operated by a lever on the
inside, but since there's no window anywhere near, that seems fairly secure.

This was a retrofit--the door originally had just the cylinder lock, but
after somebody kicked the door in and stole some minor things, the
landlord installed the deadbolt.

I didn't really know what "mortise" meant till I looked it up yesterday.
The "s" outnumbers the "c" by a factor of something like 3 in British
books and more than 10 in American ones.

https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=mortise%2Fmortice&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=18&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2C%28mortise%20/%20mortice%29%3B%2Cc0

http://tinyurl.com/mo4jov3

> When referring to it, we don't need to specify that the latchkey is for
> a night-latch; no other sort of latch requires a key.

>
> Night-latches are often colloquially known as 'Yale locks' even if made
> by someone else (and ignoring the other sorts of lock made by Yale).

In my very limited American experience, "Yale lock" is only a brand name
and refers to any kind of lock that Yale makes. Don't be surprised if
other Americans have a different experience.

>>> usually: the key of a spring door-lock. Freq. allusive and attrib.,
>>> with reference to the use of a latch-key by a younger member of a
>>> household (esp. one who comes home from school when his parents are
>>> still at work) or a lodger.
>>>
>>> latch, n.1
>>>
>>> 2. A fastening for a door or gate, so contrived as to admit of its
>>> being opened from the outside. It now usually consists of a small
>>> bar which falls or slides into a catch, and is lifted or drawn by
>>> means of a thumb-lever, string, etc. passed through the door.
>>>
>>> Now also, a small kind of spring-lock for a front-door (more fully
>>> night-latch) which is opened from the outside by means of a key. on
>>> the latch: (said of a door) fastened with a latch only; so off the
>>> latch, unlatched, ajar.
>>
>> I've never encountered this second paragraph as applying to locks in AmE.
>
> That paragraph is possibly misleading. A door secured by a night-latch
> would not be described as 'being on the latch'; it would probably be
> described as 'locked'. A door that is 'off the latch' is not fastened
> or secured in any way and will probably swing in any breeze or draught
> (at least until such movement results in the latch engaging).

I'd say "so */off the latch, unlatched, ajar/*" means something like
"analogously */off the latch/* means unlatched, ajar." Note that in the
OED paragraph, "off the latch" and "on the latch" are in bold italic.

>>> This discussion is reminding me of the recent one about missiles:
>>> ballistic, guided, cruise, etc.
>>
>> There was a also a discussion of "on the latch" with the opposite
>> meaning from "fastened with a latch only", viz., not fastened at all.
>
> I'd use 'latched' to mean 'fastened but not locked', ie not needing a
> key for access. Most internal doors and cupboard doors are latched to
> keep them shut.

Also common for gates and screen doors.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Tak To]

On 5/23/2017 8:22 AM, Whiskers wrote:
> [...]

> 'Over here' a deadlock would require operation using the key from either
> side,

These seem to be (BrE) deadlocks that can be opened on the
inside with only a lever/knob and no key.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Timber-Door-Deadlock-Lever-Wooden/dp/B00DGPHVNU
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Gerda-Quality-Surface-Deadlock-ZX/dp/B004W7C8CA

(Perhaps there are two modes of operation: when locked
from the inside, it can be opened from the inside with
the lever/knob; when locked from the outside, the inside
lever/knob is disabled and the lock must be opened from
the outside.)

> and would not work as a self-setting latch. The 'dead' part of
> the name refers to the bolt not being moveable by external interference
> (unlike a night-latch which might release itself under pressure or by
> sliding a flexible shim along it's angled face).

Yes, "dead" meaning that it is not spring loaded. OTOH,
many spring-loaded bolts have additional mechanisms
which prevent it from being "jimmied".

[Tony Cooper]

On Tue, 23 May 2017 09:09:04 -0600, Jerry Friedman
<jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>In my very limited American experience, "Yale lock" is only a brand name
>and refers to any kind of lock that Yale makes. Don't be surprised if
>other Americans have a different experience.

If a plan, in the US, specifies a "Yale" lock in the US, the intent is
that a lock made by Yale be installed. The plan would need to specify
what style of lock made by Yale.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Tue, 23 May 2017 13:55:18 +0100, Whiskers <catwh...@operamail.com>
wrote:

This link gives some of the history of the Suffolk Latch. There is no
information about how it got its name. Perhaps Suffolk was a centre of
latch-making.

There was also the Norfolk Latch which came later. Its parts were
machine-made rather than hand-forged.

https://www.suffolklatchcompany.co.uk/blogs/news/156160967-a-history-of-the-suffolk-latch

As early as the 13th century early examples of iron latches have
been found in China and Europe. By the early 1700s, iron latches
were in common use in England, It was at this time that the generic
term “Suffolk Latch” came into existence.

The first latches used in the country were rudimentary devices
usually made of wood. With earliest examples the latch bar could be
raised on the opposite side of the door by pulling a latch string
that was threaded through the door and attached to the latch bar.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Mark Brader]

Charles Bishop:

> We need to remember this if we are ever on a multinational team that is
> tasked with 1) Recovering the Rare Ruby of Reality, 2) Rescuing the
> Princess Held Against Her Will, 3) Retrieving the Important Document and
> the like. Of course, the different definition could make for an
> important Plot Point, when the misunderstanding of each other's English
> results in a moment of Tension (but soon resolved with daring do.

Just don't be so derring that you close the door when you're supposed
to push it do.
--
Mark Brader | "Oh, sure, you can make anything sound sleazy if you,
Toronto | you know, tell it exactly the way it happened."
m...@vex.net | -- Bruce Rasmussen: "Anything But Love"

My text in this article is in the public domain.

[Robert Bannister]

I have often heard things like "Is the door properly to?" or "Make sure
the door is to".

--
Robert B. born England a long time ago;
Western Australia since 1972

[Robert Bannister]

Some of our interior doors do have locks: the toilet and the bathroom
for starters.

>
> "Push the door to" is the same for me as "close the door".
>


--

[Robert Bannister]

Not for me. "To", "shut" and "closed" all mean the same when it comes to
doors, and I don't have any doors that don't have some kind of catch to
hold them shut against the wind. Belay that: my sliding glass door can
be shut without, I think, but it's just that I never do close it like that.

[Robert Bannister]

On 23/5/17 10:17 am, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Tue, 23 May 2017 09:59:07 +0800, Robert Bannister

> <robertb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
>
>> On 23/5/17 12:28 am, David Kleinecke wrote:
>>> On Monday, May 22, 2017 at 9:17:08 AM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>>> On Monday, May 22, 2017 at 12:07:28 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>>> On 2017-May-23 00:08, Janet wrote:
>>>>>

>>>>>> I was one (without the key; only because our door was never locked),
>>>>>> and I loathed every aspect of it. Coming home to an empty house in
>>>>>> exactly the same state we left it that morning; cold, unlit, messy,
>>>>>> unmade beds, last night's fire gone out, last night's dirty dishes in
>>>>>> the sink. I had to sort it all out, mind my little sister, fetch our
>>>>>> baby brother from daycare, feed bath and bed him until our widowed
>>>>>> mother arrived home from work exhausted and threw a meal together.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My sister's daughter was a real latchkey kid, from age 5 letting
>>>>>> herself into their empty London flat after school, with the key kept on
>>>>>> a bit of dirty string round her neck. It's on show in her age 7 school
>>>>>> photo, looking like the grubby poster girl for "urban neglect"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I swore our kids would never come home to an empty house, and paid
>>>>>> someone kind and homely to be there when they came home from school,
>>>>>> until I got home from work.
>>>>>
>>>>> I hope that PTD has read this (he probably has) and understood it (he
>>>>> probably hasn't). The essence of a latchkey kid is coming home to an
>>>>> empty house. There is zero connection with the phrase "push a door to".
>>>>
>>>> Since it was I who called the group's attention to the phrase "latchkey kid,"
>>>> the suggestion that I don't know what it means is ludicrous.
>>>>
>>>> The relation to the meaning of "push to" is that "latch" was invoked in an
>>>> attempt to come up with a possible meaning for a phrase that few people have
>>>> admitted to being familiar with; someone (correctly) said that latches don't
>>>> require keys (nowadays); but the existence of the phrase "latchkey kid" shows
>>>> that at some point in time there was a thing called a "latchkey."
>>>>
>>>> Either you don't read a thread and dip in occasionally, or you allowed yourself
>>>> to be buffaloed by Tony Cooper's bizarrely irrelevant dissertation on the
>>>> meaning of "latchkey kid." (Which, however, did provide Janet an opportunity to
>>>> air an unpleasant aspect of her childhood.)
>>>>
>>>> If you'd read the thread, you wouldn't have necessitated my recapping the entire matter.
>>>
>>> To me - in my speech - a latch can't have a key.
>>
>> For one meaning of "latch", I agree, but in the phrases "on/off the
>> latch", it means something different. I had never heard of "night
>> latches" before, but Mr Google knew all about them, and when I clicked
>> on Images, I got pages of pictures of Yale-type locks and deadlocks.
>>
>> "Latch key", however, got very few pictures of actual keys, which
>> surprised me a bit. It was an expression that was fairly common in my
>> childhood, and I'm only surprised that I never asked what the difference
>> was between "latch key" and "(house) key". I suspect dialect is involved
>> and that latches and latch keys were only talked about by my
>> Leicestershire grandparents and their circle.

>>
>> To my dismay, I found Google Images did not show me one picture of what
>> I call a "latch", which was a piece of metal going through the door with
>> a sort of spoon shaped piece on one side, and a curved, almost pointed
>> bit at the other side where it actually lifted the latch or bar. That
>> sort must be hopelessly old-fashioned now. In fact, I think they were
>> called "latch and ?" - I can't remember what the ? was.
>>

> This a common style used on wooden fences in Florida.
> http://www.havuzkimyasalim.com/wp-content/uploads/v/v-marvelous-gate-hardware-thumb-latch-parts-720x480.jpg
>
> The opposite side of the gate would have:
>
> http://shop.360yardware.com/images/double-4.jpg
>
> Depressing the curved thumb rest at the top lifts the bar on the other
> side.
>
> When the gate is closed, the weight of the bar closes the latch.
>
> Some latches have a simple lever on the outside instead of the handle
> show.
>
Thank you. I couldn't find a picture. I remember older houses having a
number of those. Not the "front" door perhaps, but I think the (outside)
toilet door and the cellar door and a few of the outhouses - the wash
house, the coal house, etc.

[Robert Bannister]

On 23/5/17 8:55 pm, Whiskers wrote:
> On 2017-05-23, Robert Bannister <robertb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
>> On 23/5/17 12:28 am, David Kleinecke wrote:
>>> On Monday, May 22, 2017 at 9:17:08 AM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>>> On Monday, May 22, 2017 at 12:07:28 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>>> On 2017-May-23 00:08, Janet wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>> To my dismay, I found Google Images did not show me one picture of what
>> I call a "latch", which was a piece of metal going through the door with
>> a sort of spoon shaped piece on one side, and a curved, almost pointed
>> bit at the other side where it actually lifted the latch or bar. That
>> sort must be hopelessly old-fashioned now. In fact, I think they were
>> called "latch and ?" - I can't remember what the ? was.
>
> Are you thinking of this sort of thing?
> <http://www.diy.com/departments/galvanised-steel-suffolk-gate-latch-l205mm/30026_BQ.prd>.

Yes, although I don't remember any as posh as that. Usually the "lifter"
passed straight through the wood of the door. I don't recall seeing any
with string.

> I'm familiar with those used to fasten house and out-house doors or in
> the servant quarters of grand old houses, and on the doors into walled
> gardens. I'd never associated them with Suffolk in particular, they're
> pretty ubiquitous. Some are made of cast iron, occasionally they're
> wooden, and I've seen posh ones in brass. Sizes vary a lot.
>
> Would the phrase be 'latch and lifter'? To differentiate that sort from
> the cheaper arrangement with a bit of string threaded through a hole in
> the door to lift the latch from the other side.
>

I think it was "latch and clink", but I could be wrong. Apparently,
"klink" is Dutch for latch and gave its name to the Clink Prison, in
Winchester Palace, London.

[Robert Bannister]

On 23/5/17 11:17 am, Charles Bishop wrote:
> In article <c8a41eba-ac77-426a...@googlegroups.com>,

> David Kleinecke <dklei...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Monday, May 22, 2017 at 9:17:08 AM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>> On Monday, May 22, 2017 at 12:07:28 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>> On 2017-May-23 00:08, Janet wrote:
>>>>

> For me (US) a gate latch doesn't have a key. There is a lock for a house
> door that I'd consider to have a latch - I think it's a Yale lock.
> Another name for it might be a "snap latch" The "lock" part is on the
> door, and it has a tongue that will fit into a hole in a piece of metal
> in the jamb.
>
> When this happens the door cannot be pulled open, it's "on the latch".
> You can open the door though by turning a small knob on the body of the
> lock. This pulls the latch out of the piece of metal on the jamb and the
> door can be pulled open.
>
> However if you don't want miscreants to come in the door, there is a
> keyway on the opposite side (inside) of the door. Turning the key means
> the small knob cannot be turned and so the door cannot be opened from
> the outside.
>
> So, a latch doesn't have a key, or it does if it's part of a lock system.

Agreed, but I remember a number of doors that were held to by a latch,
but which had a proper lock underneath. Some of the latter were unlocked
by large keys.

[David Kleinecke]

"Clink" is (was?) US slang for jail. Haven't heard it used
for a long time. I think you just explained its origin.

[Mack A. Damia]

Perhaps, too, the thinking behind Colonel Klink, the camp commandant
in "Hogan's Heroes".

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Wed, 24 May 2017 10:10:49 +0800, Robert Bannister
<robertb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:

> Apparently,
>"klink" is Dutch for latch and gave its name to the Clink Prison, in
>Winchester Palace, London.

The OED mentions the possible Dutch origin using the cautious words
"Some identify the word with..."

clink, n.2

Frequency (in current use):
Etymology: The evidence appears to indicate that the name was proper
to the Southwark ‘Clink’, and thence transferred elsewhere; but the
converse may have been the fact. If the name was originally
descriptive, various senses of clink , e.g. ‘to fasten securely’
(compare ‘to get the clinch’, clinch n.1 7), might have given rise
to it. Compare also clink n.4

The name of a noted prison in Southwark; later used elsewhere
(esp. in Devon and Cornwall) for a small and dismal prison or
prison-cell, a lock-up. Now used generally for: prison, cells.

c1530 A. Barclay Egloges i. sig. F, Then art thou clappyd in the
flete or clynke.
1563 J. Foxe Actes & Monuments 1056/2 The two Shirifes of
London..were willed to carye them to the Clinke, a prison not
farre from the bishop of Winchesters house.
1575 G. Gascoigne Hearbes in Wks. (1587) 171 The rest was close
in clinke.
1691 A. Wood Athenæ Oxonienses I. 325 Our author..was committed
first to the Gatehouse in Westminster, and afterwards to the Clink
in Southwark.
<...>

clink, n.4

Etymology: Meaning and origin uncertain.
The Glossary to first ed., professedly based on Spenser's authority,
explains it as ‘key-hole’; for the word in such a sense no etymology
is known, and the reference to clicket is quite erroneous. Some
identify the word with Dutch klink, German and Danish klinke,
Swedish klinka, (also French clinche, clenche) ‘latch of a door’.
Compare also ‘clink, a small or fine crack’. S. O. Addy Gloss. Words
Sheffield 1888.

Obs. rare—1.

1579 Spenser Shepheardes Cal. May 251 Tho creeping close behind
the Wickets clincke, Preuelie, he peeped out through a chinck.
[ E. K. Gloss., Clincke, a keyhole: Whose diminutiue is clicket,
vsed of Chaucer for a key.]

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

All the internal doors in my house have "sash locks" which are locks
with both a latch and a "deadbolt".
http://s7g3.scene7.com/is/image//ae235?src=ae235/7620G_P&$prodImageMedium$

The latch is the familiar spring-loaded "bolt" that drops into the hole
in the door frame when the door is closed. The latch is disengaged using
one of the handles on the inside or outside.

The deadbolt is operated on most of the doors using a key. On the
bathroom and toilet doors the deadbolt is operated by a knob on the
inside, or in an emergency, using a screwdriver or similar in the slot
in the screwhead-like thing on the outside.
https://www.handleking.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/b/r/brushed_chrome_bathroom_door_handles_on_backplate_right_hand_h751264sr.jpg
or
http://tinyurl.com/lpsjw7r

[Whiskers]

On 2017-05-23, Tak To <ta...@alum.mit.eduxx> wrote:
> On 5/23/2017 8:22 AM, Whiskers wrote:
>> [...]
>> 'Over here' a deadlock would require operation using the key from either
>> side,
>
> These seem to be (BrE) deadlocks that can be opened on the
> inside with only a lever/knob and no key.
>
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Timber-Door-Deadlock-Lever-Wooden/dp/B00DGPHVNU
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Gerda-Quality-Surface-Deadlock-ZX/dp/B004W7C8CA
>
> (Perhaps there are two modes of operation: when locked
> from the inside, it can be opened from the inside with
> the lever/knob; when locked from the outside, the inside
> lever/knob is disabled and the lock must be opened from
> the outside.)

The first of those is a standard mortice deadlock, it can only be
operated using the key whether from inside or outside.

The second is a rim-lock (surface-mounted) which appears to combine both
a night-latch and a deadbolt. I can't tell whether or not the deadbolt
can be operated from inside, the fitted knob may only operate the latch.
It has a much more sophisticated sort of 'cylinder' than the usual
night-latch - the key is in the form of a cylindrical bar with
indentations on four alignments (and the key-hole is round too).
Presumably both the latch and the deadbolt can be operated by key from
outside.

I've never seen that sort of key for a house door, but combined
night-latch and deadlock units are readily available in Britain - I have
one on my front door, replacing a feeble worn-out night-latch, along
with a conventional five lever mortice deadlock.

>> and would not work as a self-setting latch. The 'dead' part of
>> the name refers to the bolt not being moveable by external interference
>> (unlike a night-latch which might release itself under pressure or by
>> sliding a flexible shim along it's angled face).
>
> Yes, "dead" meaning that it is not spring loaded. OTOH,
> many spring-loaded bolts have additional mechanisms
> which prevent it from being "jimmied".
>


--

[Whiskers]

On 2017-05-23, Tak To <ta...@alum.mit.eduxx> wrote:

> On 5/22/2017 2:53 PM, Whiskers wrote:
>> [...] I think the original purpose of the night-latch was to allow
>> rich people to let themselves into their homes if returning so late
>> that the servants would all be in bed and so not ready to open the
>> door promptly; last person in would be responsible for setting the
>> deadlocks and bolts and so on to achieve maximum security.
>>
>> A latchkey is the sort of key used to operate a night-latch. It is
>> quite small and slim, being stamped and cut from a sheet of metal,
>> and so won't be as lumpy or heavy as the key for a mortice deadlock.
>> This would make it more acceptable to a fashionable person wearing
>> evening dress (which in many periods tends to lack pocket space).
>
> Interesting. This seems to imply that the self-latching mechanism and
> the smaller key technology came about at the same time.

'Self latching' is inherent in the concept of 'latch' and has been known
since ancient times; move the door close enough to the closed position
and the latch will engage, usually by sliding up the strategically
placed slope on the front of the 'catch-plate' and then falling into the
space behind, in the simplest gravity-operated types. [1] A spring
latch has a spring instead of or as well as gravity to help the latch
engage, and most current spring latches have the latch sliding
horizontally instead of swinging vertically and have the angled surface
on the latch (or 'bolt') instead of on the catch-plate. Springs only
became readily available and sufficiently reliable after the invention
of mass-produced spring steel in the 18th century.

Having a special key to operate the latch from outside, instead of a
fitted knob or lever, is also an ancient idea. The Romans certainly had
such things, but their keys were fairly chunky (and not very secure by
our standards).

The flat key results from the use of a locking mechanism which relies on
a number of pins or tumblers of different lengths, arranged in a
straight line and held in the locked position by springs, inside a
cylindrical housing - hence 'cylinder lock'. The key lifts each pin by
the proper distance to allow the cylinder to rotate. The cylinder lock
needs a latch or bolt of some sort to actually secure the door. The
principles involved were known to the Romans, but the modern reliable
compact cylinder locks were perfected only in the mid 19th century - and
in combination with the spring latch, made the modern night-latch
possible.
<http://www.yale.co.uk/en/yale/couk/about-us/history-of-yale/pin-tumbler-invention/>
(The image links there seem to be broken, at least from here).

[1] There are of course latches in which the part moving against gravity
and/or a spring is fitted to the door frame or wall, and the part
fitted to the door is just a passive bar or a socket. It's also
possible to make the whole door function as the latch, by allowing some
slack in the hinges.

[Charles Bishop]

In article <ovnaiclq8fftcan8t...@4ax.com>,

That is what I'd call a "mortise lock".

But my question is why all of your internal doors have them. Here, US,
mostly, the only door that has a lock on it would be the bathroom door,
for privacy, and no one walks in on someone else. Even so, this
"privacy" lock doesn't need a key. There might be a similar lock on the
parents' bedroom for similar reasons if there are children in the house.
While children, with their own room, might like to have a lock on their
door, it would be unusual.

While I was familiar with a mortise lock from reading and whatnot, it
wasn't until I began working in San Francisco with its much older houses
that I had to concern myself with their care and feeding. This would
have been where they were used for interior doors, but now I can't
remember if they were. Memory is dim.

Oh, "San Francisco with its much older houses. . ." is likely to cause
some guffawing over yonder, but have sympathy. Houses from the 1800s are
considered "much older" 'round these here parts. We suffer from an
inferiority complex anyway and there's no sense piling on.

>
> The latch is the familiar spring-loaded "bolt" that drops into the hole
> in the door frame when the door is closed. The latch is disengaged using
> one of the handles on the inside or outside.
>
> The deadbolt is operated on most of the doors using a key. On the
> bathroom and toilet doors the deadbolt is operated by a knob on the
> inside, or in an emergency, using a screwdriver or similar in the slot
> in the screwhead-like thing on the outside.
> https://www.handleking.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525
> d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/b/r/brushed_chrome_bathroom_door_handles_on_backplate_righ
> t_hand_h751264sr.jpg
> or
> http://tinyurl.com/lpsjw7r

--

charles

[Tony Cooper]

On Wed, 24 May 2017 11:44:19 +0100, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
<ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:

>
>All the internal doors in my house have "sash locks" which are locks
>with both a latch and a "deadbolt".
>http://s7g3.scene7.com/is/image//ae235?src=ae235/7620G_P&$prodImageMedium$

Do not order replacement "sash locks" from a US source. You will
receive devices intended for use on a window. They are more closures
than locks.

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5314c51ae4b0bc05fe2b8841/53337d9be4b0bce84cfabd0c/5380d989e4b05a01674f0bf1/1430418173827/P1090362.JPG?format=1500w

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

I don't know. The doors had those locks when I bought the house. I
bought the house a few years after it had been built. There were no
indications that the previous owner had changed the locks.

[JNugent]

On 22/05/2017 00:18, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> On Sunday, May 21, 2017 at 6:41:23 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> HVS <use...@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>> That's definitely how I take it as well - close the door to just
>>> before it would latch.
>>
>> One person has used "locked" and another "latched". To me, "locked"
>> means it must be opened with a key. "Latched" means it can be opened
>> by turning the doorknob.
>>
>> A latched door will not blow open, but can be opened easily by turning
>> the knob or lifting the latch.
>
> And that's why we have "latch-key kids." Not!

The famous and familar Yale lock is referred to by those in the security
and securing trade as a "nightlatch", so the latter part of that word
clearly has more than one meaning within that world.

But the term "latch" on its own does, I would agree, mean closed and
locked, but locked only to the extent that it cannot swing free. It can
still be opened without a key. For that reason, it can in practice only
refer to an interior door. A door from a building to the exterior world,
fitted with a Yale lock or something similar, cannot be latched in such
a way that someone outside can still get in, if for no other reason that
that such locks do not have a handle or knob on the outside, just the
keyhole component.

"Close the door to", in my experience, refers only to an interior door
(usually the door to a room from a corridor) and means "close the door
so that its latch is secured".

Or, as my dad used to say "Put the wood in the hole".

<http://cdn.toolstation.com/images/141020-UK/800/33046.jpg>

PS: It's been a long time since I posted here. It's good to see so many
familiar names.

[Whiskers]

"Clink Prison Museum" <http://www.clink.co.uk/>.

[Jerry Friedman]

I'm glad to know your greater experience agrees with mine.

--
Jerry Friedman

[JNugent]

In the UK, I would say, the term "Yale lock" is used day to day to refer
to any maker's nightlatch lock of the sort which automatically locks
when the door is closed and then can only be opened from outside with a
ket or from the inside by rotating a small knob or lever.

This, in UK usage is a Yale lock:

<https://images-eu.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41N2CfKJKfL._SX355_.jpg>

But so is this, even though not made by Yale:

<https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/5151sRgq4PL._SY355_.jpg>

"Yale" has become like "Hoover", "Sellotape" or "Thermos", the use of
which does not necessarily imply an item made by a particular company.


PS: I'm surprised to see that "Aspirin" is - or originally was - a
tradename. I certainly don't expect a particular brand when buying that.

[Tony Cooper]

That agreement, and $4.00 will buy you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

[Paul Wolff]

On Wed, 24 May 2017, JNugent <jenni...@fastmail.fm> posted:

>"Yale" has become like "Hoover", "Sellotape" or "Thermos", the use of
>which does not necessarily imply an item made by a particular company.
>
>PS: I'm surprised to see that "Aspirin" is - or originally was - a
>tradename. I certainly don't expect a particular brand when buying that.

Bayer, innit. Blame WWI confiscation and reparations and similar ad hoc
rulings which show even those nation states that proclaim themselves
civilised can't be relied on not to take advantage of each others'
temporary weakness. Juncker and May, take note.
--
Paul

[Katy Jennison]

On 24/05/2017 18:10, JNugent wrote:
> On 22/05/2017 00:18, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
>> On Sunday, May 21, 2017 at 6:41:23 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>> HVS <use...@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>> That's definitely how I take it as well - close the door to just
>>>> before it would latch.
>>>
>>> One person has used "locked" and another "latched". To me, "locked"
>>> means it must be opened with a key. "Latched" means it can be opened
>>> by turning the doorknob.
>>>
>>> A latched door will not blow open, but can be opened easily by turning
>>> the knob or lifting the latch.
>>
>> And that's why we have "latch-key kids." Not!
>
> The famous and familar Yale lock is referred to by those in the security
> and securing trade as a "nightlatch", so the latter part of that word
> clearly has more than one meaning within that world.
>
> But the term "latch" on its own does, I would agree, mean closed and
> locked, but locked only to the extent that it cannot swing free. It can
> still be opened without a key. For that reason, it can in practice only
> refer to an interior door. A door from a building to the exterior world,
> fitted with a Yale lock or something similar, cannot be latched in such
> a way that someone outside can still get in, if for no other reason that
> that such locks do not have a handle or knob on the outside, just the
> keyhole component.
>

However, if I have a front door with a (BrE) Yale lock and I say "I'll
leave the door on the latch for you", it will be understood to mean that
I've activated the catch on the inside of the lock so that the spring
latch is held in the "open" position and won't engage with the plate, so
that someone outside can push the door open, or open it with a handle if
it also has a separate simple non-locking latch keeping it closed.

--
Katy Jennison

[Charles Bishop]

In article <eok71k...@mid.individual.net>,

This is interesting as well. If I take your meaning correctly, the first
time I saw a toilet and bathroom was also in San Francisco, at a B&B.
That is, the commode[1] was in a room separate from the other parts of
an AmE bathroom, the tub/shower, sink, medicine cabinet and such. I
found it odd an slightly awkward, for reasons I don't remember now.
Surely there was also a sink in with the commode.

[1]Used to avoid using "toilet" which I would equate with a commode, but
also has other meanings.

--

[Mark Brader]

J. Nugent:

>> PS: I'm surprised to see that "Aspirin" is - or originally was - a
>> tradename. I certainly don't expect a particular brand when buying that.

Paul Wolff:
> Bayer, innit.

Yes. Still a Bayer trademark in Canada and many other countries.
Competing brands here are labeled as containing acetylsalicylic acid,
or more likely its short form ASA.

> Blame WWI confiscation and reparations...

Myth. It was an ordinary trademark-genericization case in both the
US and the UK.

What *was* related to WW1 confiscation is that the Bayer company lost
control of the trademarks Bayer and Aspirin in the US and Canada.
This was possible because they had turned them over to a subsidiary
to do business in those countries, which the US confiscated due to
the state of war. (By that time the shooting war was over, but the
US never ratified the Treaty of Versailles and thus remained legally
at war until a separate treaty with Germany was signed in 1921.)

The subsidiary fell into the hands of a US company, Sterling, and *that*
was the one that then lost the Aspirin trademark in the US. Much later
Bayer bought back the rights to their own name, and to Aspirin in Canada.

This is approximately the fourth time I've posted this here, by the way.
--
Mark Brader "I used to own a mind like a steel trap.
Toronto Perhaps if I'd specified a brass one, it
m...@vex.net wouldn't have rusted like this." --Greg Goss
"I have a mind like a steel trap.
It's hard to pry open." --Michael Wares

[Sam Plusnet]

On 23/05/2017 14:57, Charles Bishop wrote:
> In article <eoikjl...@mid.individual.net>,
> GordonD <g.d...@btinternet.com> wrote:

>>> "Push the door to" is the same for me as "close the door".
>>>
>>

>> Not for me. "Push the door to" is just short of "close the door" in
>> that any latch mechanism hasn't engaged.
>

> We need to remember this if we are ever on a multinational team that is
> tasked with 1) Recovering the Rare Ruby of Reality, 2) Rescuing the
> Princess Held Against Her Will, 3) Retrieving the Important Document and
> the like. Of course, the different definition could make for an
> important Plot Point, when the misunderstanding of each other's English
> results in a moment of Tension (but soon resolved with daring do.
>

In Humpty Dumpty fashion, people know what they mean when using words
and phrases which defy reality.

It took me quite some time before I could give a concise answer to
questions like

"Is it electric, or does it take batteries?

--
Sam Plusnet

[Sam Plusnet]

On 24/05/2017 22:50, Charles Bishop wrote:
> This is interesting as well. If I take your meaning correctly, the first
> time I saw a toilet and bathroom was also in San Francisco, at a B&B.
> That is, the commode[1] was in a room separate from the other parts of
> an AmE bathroom, the tub/shower, sink, medicine cabinet and such. I
> found it odd an slightly awkward, for reasons I don't remember now.
> Surely there was also a sink in with the commode.
>
> [1]Used to avoid using "toilet" which I would equate with a commode, but
> also has other meanings.

The word "commode" doesn't appear in my BrE (although I have seen it in
a US context).
Named after the Roman Emperor?

--
Sam Plusnet

[Robert Bannister]

A commode, for me, is a toilet disguised as an armchair or something,
although I know there are other types of furniture also called that. My
own house has the toilet and bath in separate rooms. Unfortunately, the
toilet is too small to contain a handbasin, but if someone else is using
the bathroom, one can always use the kitchen sink.

In older houses that have only one bathroom, placing the lavatory in
there can be very inconvenient when someone is having a bath.

[Robert Bannister]

I wish we could buy coffee as cheaply as that here in Perth.

[Robert Bannister]

One of the verses of a "night visiting song":

Klopp an de Kammerdör, Knock on my bedroom door,
Fat an de Klink! Grab the latch.
Vader meent, Father will think,
Moder meent, Mother will think
Dat deit de Wind. It's only the wind.

[Ross]

Bath and toilet in separate rooms is also common in older houses in NZ.
I was told that at one time it was actually required by the building codes.

[RH Draney]

On 5/24/2017 5:14 PM, Robert Bannister wrote:

> One of the verses of a "night visiting song":
>
> Klopp an de Kammerdör, Knock on my bedroom door,
> Fat an de Klink! Grab the latch.
> Vader meent, Father will think,
> Moder meent, Mother will think
> Dat deit de Wind. It's only the wind.

Chorus:

It's only me
From over the sea,
Barnacle Bill the sailor!

....r

[Charles Bishop]

In article <eomlct...@mid.individual.net>,

A cup of Starbucks' (or maybe even Peets') coffee has been used for
years now as an example of a high cost for something that should be
cheap. Unfortunately, in most of the examples such as the one above,
it's wrong, or at least leaves out information.

The first times I saw it, it was $5 for a cup of coffee. What they may
have meant was that Starbucks will concoct a drink for you that contains
coffee and other stuff and they will put a price on it of about $5. Back
then a small cup of coffee was something like $0.75 and a large was
something like $1.25. A frappuccino was perhaps $3.

Now a small coffee is probably $2, or a bit less, and medium and large a
bit more. A "frap" is probably $5 or close to it. I think you can still
save $0.10 if you supply your own cup for the coffee.

I'd like it if another example of something that costs "more than it
should" is found as this one bothers me because of the error.

You don't have to tip the people behind the counter, though there is a
tip jar usually on the counter.

--
charles, which may mean that if you don't you're a scoundrel

[Snidely]

On Tuesday or thereabouts, Ross asked ...

> On Sunday, May 21, 2017 at 11:41:45 PM UTC+12, James Harris wrote:
>> On 21/05/2017 12:15, Graeme wrote:
>>> In message <ofrsev$5em$3...@dont-email.me>, Gunther Heiko Hagen
>>> <gunth...@quantserve.de> writes
>>>
>>>> Can anyone tell me what is meant by the English idiom, "push the door to"
>>>> please?
>>>
>>> Shut that door! Close the door.
>>
>> Yes, but possibly not to lock it. In the way I have heard it used I
>> would say that a door which is "pushed to" would be closed but not
>> locked. It might be to shut out a draft from an internal door, for
>> example, and be especially in contrast to being "ajar".
>

> I agree. It's not part of my native NAmEng, but I hear it enough to
> understand it. It would often be used when the door is already partly
> closed, to push/pull it to would mean to move it to a position of
> complete closure, regardless of whether there was a latch or lock.

>
>>
>> There is also group alt.usage.english. Copied them in and set followups.
>> Would be interested to hear what others think of the idiom.
>>
>

> OED:
> to (adv.): 1. Expressing motion resulting in arrival; to a place etc.
> implied or indicated by the context. (Obs.)
> 2a. Towards a thing or person implied
> 2b. In one direction (as contrasted with the opposite one). Now only in
> to and fro.
> ...
> 4. Expressing contact: So as to come close against something; esp. with
> vbs. forming phrases denoting shutting or closing: see the vbs. Now arch.
> and colloq.
> 1898 G. B. Shaw Arms & Man in Plays Pleasant & Unpleasant 6 She goes
> out..and pulls the outside shutters to. ...
> 8. Used idiomatically with many verbs, as bring, come, go, lay, lie, etc.:
> see the verbs.
> This is where we find "come to" (regain consciousness), as well as the
> nautical "come to/lie to/heave to" referring to bringing a ship
> to a standstill.

This whole thread sounds like something we've done Not That Long Ago,
but my first effort at locating the relevant selection of posts was ...
unsuccessful.

/dps

--
Killing a mouse was hardly a Nobel Prize-worthy exercise, and Lawrence
went apopleptic when he learned a lousy rodent had peed away all his
precious heavy water.
_The Disappearing Spoon_, Sam Kean

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2017-05-24 23:27:40 +0000, Mark Brader said:

> [ ... ]

> What *was* related to WW1 confiscation is that the Bayer company lost
> control of the trademarks Bayer and Aspirin in the US and Canada.
> This was possible because they had turned them over to a subsidiary
> to do business in those countries, which the US confiscated due to
> the state of war. (By that time the shooting war was over, but the
> US never ratified the Treaty of Versailles and thus remained legally
> at war until a separate treaty with Germany was signed in 1921.)
>
> The subsidiary fell into the hands of a US company, Sterling, and *that*
> was the one that then lost the Aspirin trademark in the US. Much later
> Bayer bought back the rights to their own name, and to Aspirin in Canada.
>
> This is approximately the fourth time I've posted this here, by the way.

Yes, but we're slow learners.


--
athel

[Paul Wolff]

On Thu, 25 May 2017, Athel Cornish-Bowden <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> posted:

And it's only hundred-year-old details, after all. Topical IP issues are
more interesting. The ECJ has been asked whether EU copyright can extend
to food taste and perfumes, which could be fun. The particular issue is
Dutch cheese (Heks'nkaas and Witte Wievenkaas) which Jan probably has
for breakfast.
--
Paul