The eldritch wraith

[fc3...@uni-hamburg.de]

Hi,
could you explain the (especially past!) usage to
a poor German? "Wraith" has been usurped totally
by Tolkien, and "eldritch" isn't even in my fairly
large dictionary. There also seem to be many
variations in the spelling; the chemistry company
"Aldrich" probably is a variant thereof. Also, you
have an automatic undertone of "evil" going with
"eldritch". (Huh? man Caspar The Friendly Ghost :-)
So, have those words always meant "the spooky ghost"
(expressed now in simpler English)?

--
Hauke Reddmann <:-EX8 fc3...@uni-hamburg.de
Hund frißt Hund jeden Tag - Pal jetzt NEU mit Menschgeschmack
Hund frißt Hund heißt der Sport - hoff', du stehst auf Völkermord
(Der Nachwuchs)

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On 13 Jul 2015 15:42:54 GMT, <fc3...@uni-hamburg.de> wrote:

>Hi,
>could you explain the (especially past!) usage to
>a poor German? "Wraith" has been usurped totally
>by Tolkien, and "eldritch" isn't even in my fairly
>large dictionary. There also seem to be many
>variations in the spelling; the chemistry company
>"Aldrich" probably is a variant thereof. Also, you
>have an automatic undertone of "evil" going with
>"eldritch". (Huh? man Caspar The Friendly Ghost :-)
>So, have those words always meant "the spooky ghost"
>(expressed now in simpler English)?

From the OED:

eldritch, adj.

Sc[ottish].

Weird, ghostly, unnatural, frightful, hideous.

wraith, n.

Orig. (and chiefly) Sc[ottish].
1.
a. An apparition or spectre of a dead person; a phantom or ghost.

b. An immaterial or spectral appearance of a living being, freq.
regarded as portending that person's death;

An "eldritch wraith" is rather more than a "spooky ghost". It is a
frightening and hideous apparition.


--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Horace LaBadie]

In article <d0i4ju...@mid.dfncis.de>, <fc3...@uni-hamburg.de>
wrote:

> Hi,
> could you explain the (especially past!) usage to
> a poor German? "Wraith" has been usurped totally
> by Tolkien, and "eldritch" isn't even in my fairly
> large dictionary. There also seem to be many
> variations in the spelling; the chemistry company
> "Aldrich" probably is a variant thereof. Also, you
> have an automatic undertone of "evil" going with
> "eldritch". (Huh? man Caspar The Friendly Ghost :-)
> So, have those words always meant "the spooky ghost"
> (expressed now in simpler English)?

Both eldritch and wraith are Scots in origin. There is always a sinister
or foreboding aspect to eldritch. Wraiths are usually associated with
approaching or recent death, so one would naturally put a degree of
sorrow with the sentiment evoked by it.

[Janet]

In article <d0i4ju...@mid.dfncis.de>, fc3...@uni-hamburg.de says...

>
> Hi,
> could you explain the (especially past!) usage to
> a poor German? "Wraith" has been usurped totally
> by Tolkien, and "eldritch" isn't even in my fairly
> large dictionary. There also seem to be many
> variations in the spelling; the chemistry company
> "Aldrich" probably is a variant thereof. Also, you
> have an automatic undertone of "evil" going with
> "eldritch". (Huh? man Caspar The Friendly Ghost :-)
> So, have those words always meant "the spooky ghost"
> (expressed now in simpler English)?

Rabbie Burns Tam o' Shanter includes

"So Maggie runs, the witches follow,
Wi' mony an eldritch skriech and hollo."

Eldritch screech.. an unearthly screeching cry.

A wraith is a see-through ghost, misty like ectoplasm.

Janet.

[R H Draney]

Janet <nob...@home.org> wrote in news:MPG.300e153453561aa5196
@news.individual.net:

> In article <d0i4ju...@mid.dfncis.de>, fc3...@uni-hamburg.de says...
>>

>> could you explain the (especially past!) usage to
>> a poor German? "Wraith" has been usurped totally
>> by Tolkien, and "eldritch" isn't even in my fairly
>> large dictionary.
>

> A wraith is a see-through ghost, misty like ectoplasm.

Also a nasty species of aliens in "Stargate: Universe"....r

[Jerry Friedman]

On 7/13/15 9:42 AM, fc3...@uni-hamburg.de wrote:
> Hi,
> could you explain the (especially past!) usage to
> a poor German? "Wraith" has been usurped totally
> by Tolkien, and "eldritch" isn't even in my fairly
> large dictionary.

...

For people who've done a certain kind of reading, "eldritch" has been
usurped just as much by H. P. Lovecraft.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Horace LaBadie]

In article <XnsA4D6A1AFAEA20d...@74.209.136.98>,

Still in a galaxy far, far away, thank goodness.

And Agent May is much better in S.H.I.E.LD.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post-Tolkien, so does it count?

[erilar]

In article <mo1gq0$lu2$1...@news.albasani.net>,

I wonder whether "uncanny" might not be more consonant with "eldritch"
in a less Lovecraftian sense. I find "unheimlich" has about the same
feel to me. I ran out of fairy tale books well over seven decades ago
and was reading folklore and mythology before I was ten, though I didn't
discover "fantasy" until I was in my teens. I've read a decent amount in
German, too, but definitions are not what I usually do 8-) As for
"wraith", it's just some insubstantial thing with some degree of
consciousness.

--
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist

[erilar]

In article <XnsA4D6A1AFAEA20d...@74.209.136.98>,
R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net> wrote:

Hardly a respectable source for anything I can think of. It was the
worst degradation imaginable of Stargate.

--
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist

[R H Draney]

"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote in
news:f09688d4-5c68-4d1e...@googlegroups.com:

The Tolkien usurpation has itself been usurped....r

[R H Draney]

erilar <dra...@chibardun.net.invalid> wrote in
news:drache-119D33....@88-209-239-213.giganet.hu:

Never watched it myself...I was only aware of the species thus named
because of spillover into the other parts of the franchise (I had enough
issues with the "Asgard" as nekkid little gray guys)....r

[Steve Hayes]

On 13 Jul 2015 15:42:54 GMT, <fc3...@uni-hamburg.de> wrote:

>Hi,
>could you explain the (especially past!) usage to
>a poor German? "Wraith" has been usurped totally
>by Tolkien, and "eldritch" isn't even in my fairly
>large dictionary. There also seem to be many
>variations in the spelling; the chemistry company
>"Aldrich" probably is a variant thereof. Also, you
>have an automatic undertone of "evil" going with
>"eldritch". (Huh? man Caspar The Friendly Ghost :-)
>So, have those words always meant "the spooky ghost"
>(expressed now in simpler English)?

"Eldritch" is a favourite word of 1930s horror writers like H.P.
Lovecraft, Clark Ashon Smith et al.

Its use is confined almost entirely to graduates of the Miskatonic
University, who love to pile on the adjectives in their writing, and
it is one of their favourites for something that is weird, uncanny,
spooky, and, well, eldritch.

It was also the name of a character in one of Robert Goddard's novels,
though I don't remember which.

I checked and found that no English people between 1840 and 1980 were
ever given that name, but it may have been Irish.


--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Steve Hayes skrev:

> "Eldritch" is a favourite word of 1930s horror writers like H.P.
> Lovecraft, Clark Ashon Smith et al.

It's a bit funny for me to find that quite a lot of the words
that I thought Tolkien and Stephen R. Donaldson had made up
themselves, actually are normal words. It takes away just a pinch
of the fascination.

--
Bertel, Kolt, Denmark

[R H Draney]

Steve Hayes <haye...@telkomsa.net> wrote in
news:s0e9qa1k0i29ik31q...@4ax.com:

> "Eldritch" is a favourite word of 1930s horror writers like H.P.
> Lovecraft, Clark Ashon Smith et al.
>
> Its use is confined almost entirely to graduates of the Miskatonic
> University, who love to pile on the adjectives in their writing, and
> it is one of their favourites for something that is weird, uncanny,
> spooky, and, well, eldritch.
>
> It was also the name of a character in one of Robert Goddard's novels,
> though I don't remember which.
>
> I checked and found that no English people between 1840 and 1980 were
> ever given that name, but it may have been Irish.

"Eldrad must live!"...

(I can't be the only one here who's been remembering that since this thread
began)....r

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Steve Hayes skrev:

> I checked and found that no English people between 1840 and 1980 were
> ever given that name, but it may have been Irish.

There was an American named "Eldridge". Isn't that the same name?

--
Bertel, Kolt, Denmark

[Jerry Friedman]

Interesting reaction. I don't think I ever thought they'd made up
English words, except maybe "flet" and "roynish". (If I can speak of
Tolkien and Donaldson in the same sentence.)

--
Jerry Friedman

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

What do you understand by "flet" and "roynish"? They are both in the
OED. I wonder whether the meanings are the same as in those fictional
works.

flet

1. † flet, n.1
...The floor or ground under one's feet....

2. flet, n.2
...A mat of plaited straw placed on a pack-horse's back to prevent
chafing or galling....

roynish, adj.

Now arch. and literary.

†1. Rough. Obs. rare.In quot. applied to scabs or dry scaly crusts
of skin; cf. roinous adj. 1.

c1400 (??a1387) Langland Piers Plowman (Vesp.) C. xxviii. l. 83
(MED), Roynyssche [c1400 Huntington 137 Kynde..sente forþ
his..feuers and fluxes..Reumes and Radegoundes and roynouse
scabbes].

2. fig. Coarse, vulgar; despicable, base.
Common in the late 16th cent.

1570 T. Tusser Hundreth Good Pointes Husbandry (new ed.) f. 40,
The slouen and the carelesse man, the roynish nothing nice.
....
a1616 Shakespeare As you like It (1623) ii. ii. 8 The roynish
Clown, at whom so oft, Your Grace was wont to laugh, is also
missing.
1755 Johnson Dict. Eng. Lang. Roynish, paltry; sorry; mean;
rude.
....

[snide...@gmail.com]

Who has?

(not me; although I have to hand it to you, I recognized your alien remark immediately)

/dps

[Steve Hayes]

I don't recall Tolkien using "eldritch" though.

And the only made-up word I recall him using is "dwarves" as the
plural of "dwarf".

[Steve Hayes]

On Tue, 14 Jul 2015 09:39:25 -0600, Jerry Friedman
<jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Donaldson had "graveling", which looked as though it should mean
someone who had just emerged from the grave, but didn't. And his
misuse of "sojourn" gave me the heebie jeebies, or at least made me
chew ground glass.

[Will Parsons]

On Tuesday, 14 Jul 2015 2:51 PM -0400, Steve Hayes wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Jul 2015 10:41:18 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen
><gade...@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
>
>>Steve Hayes skrev:
>>
>>> "Eldritch" is a favourite word of 1930s horror writers like H.P.
>>> Lovecraft, Clark Ashon Smith et al.
>>
>>It's a bit funny for me to find that quite a lot of the words
>>that I thought Tolkien and Stephen R. Donaldson had made up
>>themselves, actually are normal words. It takes away just a pinch
>>of the fascination.
>
> I don't recall Tolkien using "eldritch" though.
>
> And the only made-up word I recall him using is "dwarves" as the
> plural of "dwarf".

That one seems to have spread to general English.

--
Will

[Charles Hope]

In article <rdmaqahnmi25n9gr2...@4ax.com>,

Steve Hayes <haye...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Jul 2015 10:41:18 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen
> <gade...@lundhansen.dk> wrote:

> >Steve Hayes skrev:
> >
> >> "Eldritch" is a favourite word of 1930s horror writers like H.P.
> >> Lovecraft, Clark Ashon Smith et al.
> >
> >It's a bit funny for me to find that quite a lot of the words
> >that I thought Tolkien and Stephen R. Donaldson had made up
> >themselves, actually are normal words. It takes away just a pinch
> >of the fascination.

> I don't recall Tolkien using "eldritch" though.

> And the only made-up word I recall him using is "dwarves" as the
> plural of "dwarf".

No, that was the original - Disney spelled it as Dwarfs and everybody
believed them.

[musika]

I believe you are mistaken.
<https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=the+dwarves%2Cthe+dwarfs&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cthe%20dwarves%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cthe%20dwarfs%3B%2Cc0>

http://tinyurl.com/nq9bce2

--
Ray
UK

[Peter T. Daniels]

There are one or two attestations of "dwarves" throughout the history of English and it's not certain that Tolkien would even have come across them.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Tuesday, July 14, 2015 at 11:07:47 AM UTC-4, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
> Steve Hayes skrev:

> > I checked and found that no English people between 1840 and 1980 were
> > ever given that name, but it may have been Irish.
>
> There was an American named "Eldridge". Isn't that the same name?

It was his middle name:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eldridge_Cleaver

Presumably he was named for a LeRoy Eldridge; cf. his brother James Weldon Cleaver.

[Will Parsons]

Tolkien himself writes in Appendix F, section II ("On Translation") of
LotR that he chose the form _dwarves_, even though "the dictionaries
tell us that the plural of _dwarf_ is _dwarfs_", to distance them from
"the sillier tales of these latter days". Personally, I wonder if he
just got it wrong and rationalized his choice later.

--
Will

[Janet]

In article <rdmaqahnmi25n9gr2...@4ax.com>,
haye...@telkomsa.net says...

>
> On Tue, 14 Jul 2015 10:41:18 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen
> <gade...@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
>
> >Steve Hayes skrev:
> >
> >> "Eldritch" is a favourite word of 1930s horror writers like H.P.
> >> Lovecraft, Clark Ashon Smith et al.
> >
> >It's a bit funny for me to find that quite a lot of the words
> >that I thought Tolkien and Stephen R. Donaldson had made up
> >themselves, actually are normal words. It takes away just a pinch
> >of the fascination.
>
> I don't recall Tolkien using "eldritch" though.
>
> And the only made-up word I recall him using is "dwarves" as the
> plural of "dwarf".

Plural of dwarf always was "dwarves" surely. Like hoof/hooves, calf
/calves.

Janet

[James Hogg]

One or two? Hundreds, more likely (Google Books is your friend). Brewer
warns against the mistake in his "Errors of Speech and of Spelling"
(1877), so it must have been common. Tolkien would very likely have seen
it in "Corpus Poeticum Boreale" where it's used, and in other
translations from Old Norse.

--
James

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

Not always.

OED:

1.a. A human being much below the ordinary stature or size; a pygmy.

All the quotations for that sense use a singular form except for one
which uses the spelling: "dwerghs".

1.b. One of a supposed race of diminutive beings, who figure in
Teutonic and esp. Scandinavian mythology and folk-lore; often
identified with the elves, and supposed to be endowed with special
skill in working metals, etc.

1770 T. Percy tr. P. H. Mallet Northern Antiq. I. vi. 106 They
made of his scull the vault of heaven, which is supported by four
dwarfs named South, North, East and West.
1818 W. Taylor in Monthly Mag. 46 26 The history of Laurin, king
of the dwarves.
1834 E. Bulwer-Lytton Pilgrims of Rhine xxvi, The aged King of
the Dwarfs that preside over the dull realms of lead.
1846 J. E. Taylor Fairy Ring Notes 363 The notion that the
wicked elves or dwarfs had the power to steal children before
their baptism is found also..in Iceland.

2.a. An animal or plant much below the ordinary height or size of
its kind or species.

1691 J. Evelyn Kalendarium Hortense (ed. 8) 129 The Crab-stock
for Standards: For Dwarfs, Stocks of the Paradise or sweet
Apple-kernel.
1719 G. London & H. Wise J. de la Quintinie's Compl. Gard'ner (ed.
7) 113 The Beauty of Dwarfs consists in a low Stem, an open
Head.

Spellings through the ages:

Forms: Pl. dwarfs; Forms: a. OE duerg, dweorg, dweorh, ME dwæruh,
ME dweru?, ME dwer?(e, ME dwergh, dwargh(e, duergh, dwerk, ME–15 Sc.
duerch(e, dorche, droich n. ß. ME dweruf, ME dwerf(e, dwerff(e,
(dwrfe), ME–16 dwarfe, 15–16 dwarff(e, 16 dwearf, ME– dwarf. ?. ME
duerwe, durwe, dwarw, ME dwerwh(e, dwerwe, dwerowe, duorow. d. ME
dwery, duery, dueri.

[Will Parsons]

On Tuesday, 14 Jul 2015 7:43 PM -0400, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Jul 2015 23:17:01 +0100, Janet <nob...@home.org> wrote:
>
>>In article <rdmaqahnmi25n9gr2...@4ax.com>,
>>haye...@telkomsa.net says...
>>>
>>> On Tue, 14 Jul 2015 10:41:18 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen
>>> <gade...@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
>>>
>>> >Steve Hayes skrev:
>>> >
>>> >> "Eldritch" is a favourite word of 1930s horror writers like H.P.
>>> >> Lovecraft, Clark Ashon Smith et al.
>>> >
>>> >It's a bit funny for me to find that quite a lot of the words
>>> >that I thought Tolkien and Stephen R. Donaldson had made up
>>> >themselves, actually are normal words. It takes away just a pinch
>>> >of the fascination.
>>>
>>> I don't recall Tolkien using "eldritch" though.
>>>
>>> And the only made-up word I recall him using is "dwarves" as the
>>> plural of "dwarf".
>>
>> Plural of dwarf always was "dwarves" surely. Like hoof/hooves, calf
>>/calves.

That doesn't follow. See below for more.

Tolkien, in the Appendix to LotR that I quoted in another post in this
thread, says that the plural "should be _dwarrows_ (or _dwerrows_), if
singular and plural had each gone its own way". This makes perfect
sense considering the OE form _dweorh_, &c.

This is *unlike* the case of words like "wolf/wolves", where the OE
form is _wulf_/_wulfas_. (The <f> in the plural was phonetically [v],
but an allophone of OE /f/.)

So the plural of "dwarf", unlike "wolf", &c., doesn't have an
inherited plural from OE. The only question was if it should make a
new plural based on adding the regular plural marker <s>, or make one
based on the analogy of "wolf", &c. The regular ending in <s> seems
to have been the normal rule until recently (under Tolkien's
influence).

--
Will

[Robert Bannister]

Moreover, Tolkien takes the trouble of explaining why he used the
unusual "dwarves" instead of "dwarfs" or "dwarrows" in one of the many
appendices.

--
Robert Bannister
Perth, Western Australia

[Robert Bannister]

On 15/07/2015 6:17 am, Janet wrote:

> Plural of dwarf always was "dwarves" surely. Like hoof/hooves, calf
> /calves.

Not really, but I think you're going to start further controversy now.
I say hoof/hooves and roof/rooves, but plenty of other people say hoofs
and roofs.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Nope.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Tuesday, July 14, 2015 at 7:46:56 PM UTC-4, PeterWD wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Jul 2015 23:17:01 +0100, Janet <nob...@home.org> wrote:
>
> >In article <rdmaqahnmi25n9gr2...@4ax.com>,
> >haye...@telkomsa.net says...
> >>
> >> On Tue, 14 Jul 2015 10:41:18 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen
> >> <gade...@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Steve Hayes skrev:
> >> >
> >> >> "Eldritch" is a favourite word of 1930s horror writers like H.P.
> >> >> Lovecraft, Clark Ashon Smith et al.
> >> >
> >> >It's a bit funny for me to find that quite a lot of the words
> >> >that I thought Tolkien and Stephen R. Donaldson had made up
> >> >themselves, actually are normal words. It takes away just a pinch
> >> >of the fascination.
> >>
> >> I don't recall Tolkien using "eldritch" though.
> >>
> >> And the only made-up word I recall him using is "dwarves" as the
> >> plural of "dwarf".
> >
> > Plural of dwarf always was "dwarves" surely. Like hoof/hooves, calf
> >/calves.
> >
> Not always.
>
> OED:
>
> 1.a. A human being much below the ordinary stature or size; a pygmy.
>
> All the quotations for that sense use a singular form except for one
> which uses the spelling: "dwerghs".

Which couldn't spell /vz/. OE [v] was an intervocalic allophone of /f/.

> 1.b. One of a supposed race of diminutive beings, who figure in
> Teutonic and esp. Scandinavian mythology and folk-lore; often
> identified with the elves, and supposed to be endowed with special
> skill in working metals, etc.
>
> 1770 T. Percy tr. P. H. Mallet Northern Antiq. I. vi. 106 They
> made of his scull the vault of heaven, which is supported by four
> dwarfs named South, North, East and West.
> 1818 W. Taylor in Monthly Mag. 46 26 The history of Laurin, king
> of the dwarves.
> 1834 E. Bulwer-Lytton Pilgrims of Rhine xxvi, The aged King of
> the Dwarfs that preside over the dull realms of lead.
> 1846 J. E. Taylor Fairy Ring Notes 363 The notion that the
> wicked elves or dwarfs had the power to steal children before
> their baptism is found also..in Iceland.
>
> 2.a. An animal or plant much below the ordinary height or size of
> its kind or species.
>
> 1691 J. Evelyn Kalendarium Hortense (ed. 8) 129 The Crab-stock
> for Standards: For Dwarfs, Stocks of the Paradise or sweet
> Apple-kernel.
> 1719 G. London & H. Wise J. de la Quintinie's Compl. Gard'ner (ed.
> 7) 113 The Beauty of Dwarfs consists in a low Stem, an open
> Head.
>
> Spellings through the ages:
>
> Forms: Pl. dwarfs; Forms: a. OE duerg, dweorg, dweorh, ME dwæruh,

> ME dweru?, ME dwer?(e, ME dwergh, dwargh(e, duergh, dwerk, ME-15 Sc.

> duerch(e, dorche, droich n. ß. ME dweruf, ME dwerf(e, dwerff(e,

> (dwrfe), ME-16 dwarfe, 15-16 dwarff(e, 16 dwearf, ME- dwarf. ?. ME

[Jerry Friedman]

On 7/14/15 12:51 PM, Steve Hayes wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Jul 2015 10:41:18 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen
> <gade...@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
>
>> Steve Hayes skrev:
>>
>>> "Eldritch" is a favourite word of 1930s horror writers like H.P.
>>> Lovecraft, Clark Ashon Smith et al.
>>
>> It's a bit funny for me to find that quite a lot of the words
>> that I thought Tolkien and Stephen R. Donaldson had made up
>> themselves, actually are normal words. It takes away just a pinch
>> of the fascination.
>
> I don't recall Tolkien using "eldritch" though.
>
> And the only made-up word I recall him using is "dwarves" as the
> plural of "dwarf".

If you count that, you could also count "hobbit" (I think there's
actually an attestation somewhere of it as a dialect word for some kind
of goblin, but Tolkien says it's an invention), "mathom", "smial",
"dwimmerlaik" and "dwimmer-crafty". When I said I didn't think
Tolkien's words were made up, I wasn't thinking about those
modernizations of Old English. Nor was I thinking about all the
compounds he made up from more or less recognizable elements, such as
"kingsfoil" and "Shadowfax". (The second one is less recognizable.)

--
Jerry Friedman

[Jerry Friedman]

On 7/14/15 10:38 AM, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Jul 2015 09:39:25 -0600, Jerry Friedman
> <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> On 7/14/15 2:41 AM, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>>> Steve Hayes skrev:
>>>
>>>> "Eldritch" is a favourite word of 1930s horror writers like H.P.
>>>> Lovecraft, Clark Ashon Smith et al.
>>>
>>> It's a bit funny for me to find that quite a lot of the words
>>> that I thought Tolkien and Stephen R. Donaldson had made up
>>> themselves, actually are normal words. It takes away just a pinch
>>> of the fascination.
>>
>> Interesting reaction. I don't think I ever thought they'd made up
>> English words, except maybe "flet" and "roynish". (If I can speak of
>> Tolkien and Donaldson in the same sentence.)
>
> What do you understand by "flet" and "roynish"? They are both in the
> OED. I wonder whether the meanings are the same as in those fictional
> works.
>
> flet
>
> 1. † flet, n.1
> ...The floor or ground under one's feet....

That one, somewhere between that sense and the "dwelliing" sense,
related to "flat". Tolkien used it for a platform high in a tree; some
elves lived on them.

> 2. flet, n.2
> ...A mat of plaited straw placed on a pack-horse's back to prevent
> chafing or galling....


> roynish, adj.
>
> Now arch. and literary.
>
> †1. Rough. Obs. rare.In quot. applied to scabs or dry scaly crusts
> of skin; cf. roinous adj. 1.
>
> c1400 (??a1387) Langland Piers Plowman (Vesp.) C. xxviii. l. 83
> (MED), Roynyssche [c1400 Huntington 137 Kynde..sente forþ
> his..feuers and fluxes..Reumes and Radegoundes and roynouse
> scabbes].
>
> 2. fig. Coarse, vulgar; despicable, base.
> Common in the late 16th cent.
>
> 1570 T. Tusser Hundreth Good Pointes Husbandry (new ed.) f. 40,
> The slouen and the carelesse man, the roynish nothing nice.
> ....
> a1616 Shakespeare As you like It (1623) ii. ii. 8 The roynish
> Clown, at whom so oft, Your Grace was wont to laugh, is also
> missing.
> 1755 Johnson Dict. Eng. Lang. Roynish, paltry; sorry; mean;
> rude.
> ....

I don't remember the Illearth books very well, but I think Donaldson
applied it to the yucky things his world was so rich in.


--
Jerry Friedman

[Eric Walker]

On Tue, 14 Jul 2015 09:39:25 -0600, Jerry Friedman wrote:

[...]

> Interesting reaction. I don't think I ever thought they'd made up
> English words, except maybe "flet" and "roynish". (If I can speak of
> Tolkien and Donaldson in the same sentence.)

The champion speculative-fiction word-maker was Jack Vance. But so wide
was his vocabulary, that frequent reference to an unabridged dictionary
is needed to sort out real words from his (very clever) inventions.

Nuncupatory, twittler, venefice, tintamar--those are in dictionaries
you can pick up and read; sanivacity, malditties--those are pure Vance
(hurlothrumbo, though not to be found in my copy of the OED, turns out
also to be a real word, or name anyway).

(Incidentally, my spell checker underlined every one of those words, real
and not.)

[fc3...@uni-hamburg.de]

Bertel Lund Hansen <gade...@lundhansen.dk> wrote:

> Steve Hayes skrev:

>> I checked and found that no English people between 1840 and 1980 were
>> ever given that name, but it may have been Irish.

> There was an American named "Eldridge". Isn't that the same name?

Not only one, I guess :-) Heard that before (outside of Lovecraft,
which I never read in the original).
BTW, commenting on another item, the German "unheimlich" or even
the stronger "schauerlich" doesn't have that undertone of evil,
but just says you will shit your pants :-)
Son of BTW, I probably couldn't care less about the "correct"
plural of dwarf since it is improbable I meet some of them
and they take offense :-) (That "in wide use" != "in the DUDEN"
is an effect we also know in Germany.)

--
Hauke Reddmann <:-EX8 fc3...@uni-hamburg.de
Hund frißt Hund jeden Tag - Pal jetzt NEU mit Menschgeschmack
Hund frißt Hund heißt der Sport - hoff', du stehst auf Völkermord
(Der Nachwuchs)

[Oliver Cromm]

* erilar:

> In article <XnsA4D6A1AFAEA20d...@74.209.136.98>,
> R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>
>> Janet <nob...@home.org> wrote in news:MPG.300e153453561aa5196
>> @news.individual.net:
>>
>>> In article <d0i4ju...@mid.dfncis.de>, fc3...@uni-hamburg.de says...
>>>>
>>>> could you explain the (especially past!) usage to
>>>> a poor German? "Wraith" has been usurped totally
>>>> by Tolkien, and "eldritch" isn't even in my fairly
>>>> large dictionary.
>>>
>>> A wraith is a see-through ghost, misty like ectoplasm.
>>
>> Also a nasty species of aliens in "Stargate: Universe"....r

Not true, the wraith figure mainly in Stargate: Atlantis.

> Hardly a respectable source for anything I can think of. It was the
> worst degradation imaginable of Stargate.

Stargate: Universe had a bad start, but was cancelled when it had
found its rhythm and looked really promising.

But then, I never understood how SG-1 made it to ten seasons -
half would have been sufficient, if you ask me. So I guess I'm not
a true fan.

--
XML combines all the inefficiency of text-based formats with most
of the unreadability of binary formats.
Oren Tirosh, comp.lang.python

[Oliver Cromm]

* Horace LaBadie:

> In article <XnsA4D6A1AFAEA20d...@74.209.136.98>,
> R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>
>> Janet <nob...@home.org> wrote in news:MPG.300e153453561aa5196
>> @news.individual.net:
>>
>>> In article <d0i4ju...@mid.dfncis.de>, fc3...@uni-hamburg.de says...
>>>>
>>>> could you explain the (especially past!) usage to
>>>> a poor German? "Wraith" has been usurped totally
>>>> by Tolkien, and "eldritch" isn't even in my fairly
>>>> large dictionary.
>>>
>>> A wraith is a see-through ghost, misty like ectoplasm.
>>
>> Also a nasty species of aliens in "Stargate: Universe"....r
>

> Still in a galaxy far, far away, thank goodness.
>
> And Agent May is much better in S.H.I.E.LD.

Never liked Major Carter much, but Dr. Helen Magnus is a great
woman.

--
Press any key to continue or any other key to quit.

[Horace LaBadie]

In article <umryfuwq...@mid.crommatograph.info>,

Oliver Cromm <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:

> But then, I never understood how SG-1 made it to ten seasons -
> half would have been sufficient, if you ask me. So I guess I'm not
> a true fan.

RDA's personality, mainly. After he left, the show was just wrapping
things up for the last couple of years.

[Horace LaBadie]

In article <8bjxso1q5tkg$.d...@mid.crommatograph.info>,

Oliver Cromm <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:

> Never liked Major Carter much, but Dr. Helen Magnus is a great
> woman.

Sort of by definition.

[erilar]

In article <d0lpn6...@mid.individual.net>,

Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:

> On 15/07/2015 6:17 am, Janet wrote:
>
> > Plural of dwarf always was "dwarves" surely. Like hoof/hooves, calf
> > /calves.
>
> Not really, but I think you're going to start further controversy now.
> I say hoof/hooves and roof/rooves, but plenty of other people say hoofs
> and roofs.

I'm split: hooves and roofs 8-)

--
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist

[erilar]

In article <hlabadie-F3ED6A...@nntp.aioe.org>,

To be honest, he was the reason I began watching it, but I soon came to
like the other main characters as well. For me, Atlantis was a few steps
down and Universe incredibly awful.

--
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist

[Robin Bignall]

That Ngram is fascinating. My father was born in 1899 and grew up
during a time when the 'dwarfs' line was quite high, but he was taught
(and from him I learned) that 'dwarves' was the "correct" plural.
--
Robin Bignall
Herts, England (BrE)

[Robin Bignall]

On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 09:01:26 +0800, Robert Bannister
<rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:

>On 15/07/2015 6:17 am, Janet wrote:
>
>> Plural of dwarf always was "dwarves" surely. Like hoof/hooves, calf
>> /calves.
>
>Not really, but I think you're going to start further controversy now.
>I say hoof/hooves and roof/rooves, but plenty of other people say hoofs
>and roofs.

Does it not also involve how one has learned, or been taught, to speak
these plurals: either with an 'f' or a 'v' sound. I heard a 'v' in all
of the examples mentioned here.

[R H Draney]

Robin Bignall <docr...@ntlworld.com> wrote in
news:8dsdqa9c7ieo03fip...@4ax.com:

That's how I ended up saying "chieves"....r

[James Hogg]

The form "handkerchieves" is surprisingly common in Google Books.

--
James

[Steve Hayes]

I've heard of nuncupative wills, but not nuncupatory.


--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

[Eric Walker]

On Thu, 16 Jul 2015 10:04:57 +0200, Steve Hayes wrote:

[...]

> I've heard of nuncupative wills, but not nuncupatory.

Same sense: the OED has it as "nuncupative; oral, verbal".

Vance has his slyboots villains respond to any pressing interrogative
with a disdainful "The question is nuncupatory," and no further answer.

[Peter Moylan]

+1

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia

[R H Draney]

Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote in
news:mo84r6$4gp$2...@dont-email.me:

> On 2015-Jul-16 08:55, erilar wrote:
>> In article <d0lpn6...@mid.individual.net>,
>> Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 15/07/2015 6:17 am, Janet wrote:
>>>
>>>> Plural of dwarf always was "dwarves" surely. Like hoof/hooves,
>>>> calf
>>>> /calves.
>>>
>>> Not really, but I think you're going to start further controversy
>>> now. I say hoof/hooves and roof/rooves, but plenty of other people
>>> say hoofs and roofs.
>>
>> I'm split: hooves and roofs 8-)
>
> +1

Split hooves?...well, that can't be kosher....r

[Jerry Friedman]

I once planted a chife, but it didn't grow.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Horace LaBadie]

In article <XnsA4D93008A6BB6d...@74.209.136.92>,

R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net> wrote:

Are cloves kosher?

[musika]

Not much of an achivement.

--
Ray
UK

[Charles Bishop]

In article <hlabadie-06DBBA...@nntp.aioe.org>,
Horace LaBadie <hlab...@nospam.com> wrote:

> In article <XnsA4D6A1AFAEA20d...@74.209.136.98>,

> R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>

> > Janet <nob...@home.org> wrote in news:MPG.300e153453561aa5196
> > @news.individual.net:
> >
> > > In article <d0i4ju...@mid.dfncis.de>, fc3...@uni-hamburg.de says...
> > >>
> > >> could you explain the (especially past!) usage to
> > >> a poor German? "Wraith" has been usurped totally
> > >> by Tolkien, and "eldritch" isn't even in my fairly
> > >> large dictionary.
> > >
> > > A wraith is a see-through ghost, misty like ectoplasm.
> >
> > Also a nasty species of aliens in "Stargate: Universe"....r
>
> Still in a galaxy far, far away, thank goodness.
>
> And Agent May is much better in S.H.I.E.LD.

How is the show itself? I watch a part of one episode and thought it was
a send-up of that type of show.

--
charles, no longer in the demographic, I guess

[Robin Bignall]

On Thu, 16 Jul 2015 08:38:01 +0200, James Hogg <Jas....@gOUTmail.com>
wrote:

That's how members of my family (including the ones related by marriage
rather than blood) say and write the word.

[Charles Bishop]

In article <rdmaqahnmi25n9gr2...@4ax.com>,
Steve Hayes <haye...@telkomsa.net> wrote:

> On Tue, 14 Jul 2015 10:41:18 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen

> <gade...@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
>
> >Steve Hayes skrev:
> >

> >> "Eldritch" is a favourite word of 1930s horror writers like H.P.
> >> Lovecraft, Clark Ashon Smith et al.
> >
> >It's a bit funny for me to find that quite a lot of the words
> >that I thought Tolkien and Stephen R. Donaldson had made up
> >themselves, actually are normal words. It takes away just a pinch
> >of the fascination.
>

> I don't recall Tolkien using "eldritch" though.

Did Shakespeare?

>
> And the only made-up word I recall him using is "dwarves" as the
> plural of "dwarf".

--
charles

[Steve Hayes]

On Thu, 16 Jul 2015 13:30:22 -0700, Charles Bishop
<ctbi...@earthlink.net> wrote:

>In article <rdmaqahnmi25n9gr2...@4ax.com>,
> Steve Hayes <haye...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 14 Jul 2015 10:41:18 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen
>> <gade...@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
>>
>> >Steve Hayes skrev:
>> >
>> >> "Eldritch" is a favourite word of 1930s horror writers like H.P.
>> >> Lovecraft, Clark Ashon Smith et al.
>> >
>> >It's a bit funny for me to find that quite a lot of the words
>> >that I thought Tolkien and Stephen R. Donaldson had made up
>> >themselves, actually are normal words. It takes away just a pinch
>> >of the fascination.
>>
>> I don't recall Tolkien using "eldritch" though.
>
>Did Shakespeare?

Did Shakespeare what? Make up words, or use "eldritch"?

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Thursday, July 16, 2015 at 4:46:29 PM UTC-4, Steve Hayes wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Jul 2015 13:30:22 -0700, Charles Bishop
> <ctbi...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >In article <rdmaqahnmi25n9gr2...@4ax.com>,
> > Steve Hayes <haye...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
> >
> >> On Tue, 14 Jul 2015 10:41:18 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen
> >> <gade...@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Steve Hayes skrev:
> >> >
> >> >> "Eldritch" is a favourite word of 1930s horror writers like H.P.
> >> >> Lovecraft, Clark Ashon Smith et al.
> >> >
> >> >It's a bit funny for me to find that quite a lot of the words
> >> >that I thought Tolkien and Stephen R. Donaldson had made up
> >> >themselves, actually are normal words. It takes away just a pinch
> >> >of the fascination.
> >>
> >> I don't recall Tolkien using "eldritch" though.
> >
> >Did Shakespeare?
>
> Did Shakespeare what? Make up words, or use "eldritch"?

Shakespeare is credited (e.g. in the OED) with the first use of many words,
but quite a few have been shown not to be by fuller reading of 16th-century
sources.

According to the Harvard Concordance by Marvin Spevack, he did not use "eldritch."

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

"Eldritch" is a word of Scottish origin. All the quotations in the OED
are from Scottish authors until more than two centuries after
Shakespeare's death.


--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Robert Bannister]

I notice too that most of the people who say "hoofs" use the "pull"
vowel, whereas I use the "pool" vowel.

--
Robert Bannister
Perth, Western Australia

[Robert Bannister]

It works for "handkerchieves" in my idiolect.

[Will Parsons]

On Thursday, 16 Jul 2015 9:15 PM -0400, Lewis wrote:
> In message <rdmaqahnmi25n9gr2...@4ax.com>

> Steve Hayes <haye...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>> On Tue, 14 Jul 2015 10:41:18 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen
>> <gade...@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
>
>>>Steve Hayes skrev:
>>>
>>>> "Eldritch" is a favourite word of 1930s horror writers like H.P.
>>>> Lovecraft, Clark Ashon Smith et al.
>>>
>>>It's a bit funny for me to find that quite a lot of the words
>>>that I thought Tolkien and Stephen R. Donaldson had made up
>>>themselves, actually are normal words. It takes away just a pinch
>>>of the fascination.
>
>> I don't recall Tolkien using "eldritch" though.
>

>> And the only made-up word I recall him using is "dwarves" as the
>> plural of "dwarf".
>

> I do not think dwarves is in any sense made up. It was an old usage that
> he resurrected, as I understand it.

Why do you understand that? Did you see my earlier post in this
thread where I quoted Tolkein on his reasons for using the form?

--
Will

[Peter T. Daniels]

In the singular too? I'd say /hUf/ /hUfs/ /huwvz/ /ruwf/ /ruwfs/

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post hoc, ergo propter hoc: someone used the <v> in 1818 or something like
that, so obviously JRRT's wasn't original. (Someone also claimed, without citing
any evidence, that it was rife in translations from the Old Norse.)

[James Hogg]

I told you the source: Google Books. You could easily have checked for
yourself and found plenty of examples of the spelling "dwarves" in the
19th century.

--
James

[Dr Nick]

Bertel Lund Hansen <gade...@lundhansen.dk> writes:

> Steve Hayes skrev:
>
>> I checked and found that no English people between 1840 and 1980 were
>> ever given that name, but it may have been Irish.
>
> There was an American named "Eldridge". Isn't that the same name?

I think one became Pope at some stage.

[Dr Nick]

Horace LaBadie <hlab...@nospam.com> writes:

> In article <8bjxso1q5tkg$.d...@mid.crommatograph.info>,
> Oliver Cromm <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>
>> Never liked Major Carter much, but Dr. Helen Magnus is a great
>> woman.
>
> Sort of by definition.

I can't help feeling there's a Magna Carta joke here that I can't quite
pull out.

[Snidely]

Dr Nick explained on 7/16/2015 :

Maybe you're thinking of Jimmy Carter.

/dps "works for peanuts"

--
Killing a mouse was hardly a Nobel Prize-worthy exercise, and Lawrence
went apopleptic when he learned a lousy rodent had peed away all his
precious heavy water.
_The Disappearing Spoon_, Sam Kean

[Peter T. Daniels]

Seems like it's the OED you should be telling.

You think that writing

"One or two? Hundreds, more likely (Google Books is your friend)."

is giving a source?

"Brewer
warns against the mistake in his "Errors of Speech and of Spelling"
(1877), so it must have been common."

What a touching faith in airy prescriptivism. At best it suggests that
schoolboys made the analogy but it was ruthlessly edited out of printed
material.

"Tolkien would very likely have seen it in "Corpus Poeticum Boreale" where
it's used, and in other translations from Old Norse."

Ah, yes, an exact reference. Yeah, right.

I find Tolkien's own words -- as quoted by Will, which I read for the first
time in 1965 -- relying on imaginative philology considerably more persuasive
than any of the above.

[James Hogg]

I understand you don't like to be caught out posting an untruth (your
"one or two" instances of "dwarves" in the history of English), but I
don't understand your reluctance or inability to do Google searches on
your own.

--
James

[Peter T. Daniels]

Why would I want to waste the time "proving" someone else's point who didn't
bother "proving" it himself?

[James Hogg]

I wasn't writing a scholarly article on the topic. It was a newsgroup
post in which I provided enough information for anyone who was
interested and competent enough to pursue the matter.

I'll quote just two of the many sources you could have found for yourself:

"Then bade these dwarves to them the giant hight Gillingr and his wife,
then the dwarves bade Gillingr to row out to sea with them, but as they
fared forth along the land the dwarves rowed against a blind scar and
overturned the skiff."
The Prose Or Younger Edda, Commonly Ascribed to Snorri Sturluson.
Translated from the Old Norse by George Webbe Dasent (Stockholm &
London, 1842), p. 92.

"And on a time when he came, as he was bidden, to a feast, with certain
Dwarves..."
Guðbrandur Vigfússon, Frederick York Powell, Corpus Poeticum Boreale,
vol 1, Eddic Poems (Oxford, 1883), p. 464.

--
James

[Rich Ulrich]

On Fri, 17 Jul 2015 10:10:44 +0800, Robert Bannister

<rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:

>On 16/07/2015 6:55 am, erilar wrote:
>> In article <d0lpn6...@mid.individual.net>,
>> Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 15/07/2015 6:17 am, Janet wrote:
>>>
>>>> Plural of dwarf always was "dwarves" surely. Like hoof/hooves, calf
>>>> /calves.
>>>
>>> Not really, but I think you're going to start further controversy now.
>>> I say hoof/hooves and roof/rooves, but plenty of other people say hoofs
>>> and roofs.
>>
>> I'm split: hooves and roofs 8-)
>>
>I notice too that most of the people who say "hoofs" use the "pull"
>vowel, whereas I use the "pool" vowel.

Yes, sort of. I could say either hoofs or hooves.
If I say hooves, I change to the "pool" vowel.

I think you are saying you use the "pool" vowel for hoof,
which I might do if the conversation had started that way;
otherwise, not.

--
Rich Ulrich

[Will Parsons]

I haven't made any scientific survey, but I *think* it's likely that
almost all people who use "hooves" or "rooves" will use the "pool"
vowel in them, whereas there's probably a considerable amount
variation in whether people use the "pool" or "pull" vowel in
"hoof(s)" or "roof(s)".

FWIW, I pronounce "hoof" [hʊf] and "roof" [ru:f]. (I associate [rʊf]
with the midwestern US, but I don't really have a good idea of its
distribution.)

--
Will

[Reinhold {Rey} Aman]

Snippy little bickering bitch [TM] PeteY Daniels weaseled again:
>
> James Hogg wrote:
[...]

>> I understand you don't like to be caught out posting an untruth (your
>> "one or two" instances of "dwarves" in the history of English), but I
>> don't understand your reluctance or inability to do Google searches
>> on your own.
>
> Why would I want to waste the time "proving" someone else's point who
> didn't bother "proving" it himself?
>

I'm just shaking my head in disbelief about that mentally ill
arch-weasel PeteY Daniels....

--
~~~ Reinhold {Rey} Aman ~~~

[Jerry Friedman]

The AHD says (translating) "hoof (/hʊf/, /huf/)

"n.pl. hooves(/hʊvz/, /huvz/) or hoofs"

That is, it gives the "pull" vowel first for both plurals. I say "hoof"
and "hooves" with that vowel, and I've always thought those were the
standard and most common American pronunciations.

> FWIW, I pronounce "hoof" [hʊf] and "roof" [ru:f]. (I associate [rʊf]
> with the midwestern US, but I don't really have a good idea of its
> distribution.)

My father, from the Cleveland area, says [rʊf], but that's old-fashioned
there. Most people his age and younger that I knew said [ruf]. Likewise
"root".

--
Jerry Friedman

[Robert Bannister]

I say /hu:f/, /hu:vz/; /ru:f/, /ru:ves/.
When it comes to writing, I then get mixed up as to whether it's
"hooves" or "rooves" that is a legal spelling and also wonder why
there's a difference.

[Robert Bannister]

On 18/07/2015 12:27 am, Rich Ulrich wrote:

> I think you are saying you use the "pool" vowel for hoof,
> which I might do if the conversation had started that way;
> otherwise, not.
>

Yes.

[R H Draney]

Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote in
news:d0tqnl...@mid.individual.net:

> I say /hu:f/, /hu:vz/; /ru:f/, /ru:ves/.
> When it comes to writing, I then get mixed up as to whether it's
> "hooves" or "rooves" that is a legal spelling and also wonder why
> there's a difference.

It behooves you to come up with a suitable mnemonic....r

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Saturday, July 18, 2015 at 4:46:47 PM UTC-4, Lewis wrote:
> In message <slrnmqgrct...@anukis.local>

> Will Parsons <va...@nodomain.invalid> wrote:

> > Did you see my earlier post in this thread where I quoted Tolkein on
> > his reasons for using the form?
>

> Nope, sorry. (I cannot possibly read everything in the group, even when
> I kill every branch PTD posts in.)

What a maroon. No wonder his postings appear so ignorant.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Saturday, July 18, 2015 at 4:50:13 PM UTC-4, Lewis wrote:

> I do not pronounce hooves with the pool vowel. I use pull (I think it's
> pull, it's hard to isolate it) . However, I am inconsistent in my use of
> roofs/rooves, but use the pool vowel in both.

What a maroon. His pronunciations are identical to mine (which I posted much
earlier in the thread).

[Will Parsons]

On Saturday, 18 Jul 2015 4:45 PM -0400, Lewis wrote:
> In message <slrnmqgrct...@anukis.local>
> Will Parsons <va...@nodomain.invalid> wrote:

>> On Thursday, 16 Jul 2015 9:15 PM -0400, Lewis wrote:

...

>>> I do not think dwarves is in any sense made up. It was an old usage that
>>> he resurrected, as I understand it.
>
>> Why do you understand that?
>

> Seems like I read something like that about 40 years ago. Mabye a little
> less.

>
>> Did you see my earlier post in this thread where I quoted Tolkein on
>> his reasons for using the form?
>

> Nope, sorry. (I cannot possibly read everything in the group, even when
> I kill every branch PTD posts in.)
>

> Was it this:
>
><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwarf_(Middle-earth)#Spelling_.22Dwarves.22>
> The original editor of The Hobbit "corrected" Tolkien's plural dwarves
> to dwarfs, as did the editor of the Puffin paperback edition of The
> Hobbit. According to Tolkien, the "real 'historical'" plural of
> dwarf is dwarrows or dwerrows. He referred to dwarves as "a piece of
> private bad grammar". In Appendix F of The Lord of the Rings it is
> explained that if we still spoke of dwarves regularly, English might
> have retained a special plural for the word dwarf as with goose—geese.
> Despite Tolkien's fondness for it, the form dwarrow only appears in his
> writing as Dwarrowdelf, a name for Moria.
>
> Tolkien used Dwarves, instead, which corresponds with Elf and Elves. In
> this matter, one has to consider the fact that the etymological
> development of the term dwarf differs from the similar-sounding word
> scarf (plural scarves). The English word is related to old Norse dvergr,
> which, in the other case, would have had the form dvorgr. But this word
> was never recorded, and the f/g-emendation (English/Norse) dates further
> back in language history.
>
> ??

I quoted from Tolkien himself (in App. F to LotR) rather than
Wikipedia, but yes, the 1st paragraph of the Wikipedia article you
quoted above does reflect what I wrote. (The 2nd paragraph seems a
bit confused.)

--
Will

[Robert Bannister]

Now I live in Western Australia, I have learnt to pronounce "maroon" as
"muh-ROAN" /m@'r@Un/

(I hate representing "oh" as [@U] as I know I don't pronounce it that
way and nor do I say [oU], but I not sure what the onset vowel is: [E]?
[a]? I'm really not sure.)

[Steve Hayes]

Is a "maroon" the opposite of a "green"?


--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Saturday, July 18, 2015 at 10:17:50 PM UTC-4, Steve Hayes wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Jul 2015 08:37:08 +0800, Robert Bannister
> <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:
> >On 19/07/2015 5:26 am, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >> On Saturday, July 18, 2015 at 4:50:13 PM UTC-4, Lewis wrote:

> >>> I do not pronounce hooves with the pool vowel. I use pull (I think it's
> >>> pull, it's hard to isolate it) . However, I am inconsistent in my use of
> >>> roofs/rooves, but use the pool vowel in both.
> >> What a maroon. His pronunciations are identical to mine (which I posted much
> >> earlier in the thread).
> >Now I live in Western Australia, I have learnt to pronounce "maroon" as
> >"muh-ROAN" /m@'r@Un/
> >(I hate representing "oh" as [@U] as I know I don't pronounce it that
> >way and nor do I say [oU], but I not sure what the onset vowel is: [E]?
> >[a]? I'm really not sure.)
>
> Is a "maroon" the opposite of a "green"?

It's a distortion -- perhaps popularized by the Three Stooges -- of "moron."

[m@'ruwn]

[Reinhold {Rey} Aman]

Snippy little bickering bitch [TM] PeteY Daniels wrote:

>
> Steve Hayes wrote:
>>
>> Is a "maroon" the opposite of a "green"?
>>

No, YOU are a maroon!

>
> It's a distortion -- perhaps popularized by the
> Three Stooges -- of "moron."
>

Wrong!

[GordonD]

On 19/07/2015 03:24, Steve Hayes wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Jul 2015 08:37:08 +0800, Robert Bannister
> <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:
>
>> On 19/07/2015 5:26 am, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>> On Saturday, July 18, 2015 at 4:50:13 PM UTC-4, Lewis wrote:
>>>
>>>> I do not pronounce hooves with the pool vowel. I use pull (I think it's
>>>> pull, it's hard to isolate it) . However, I am inconsistent in my use of
>>>> roofs/rooves, but use the pool vowel in both.
>>>
>>> What a maroon. His pronunciations are identical to mine (which I posted much
>>> earlier in the thread).
>>>
>> Now I live in Western Australia, I have learnt to pronounce "maroon" as
>> "muh-ROAN" /m@'r@Un/
>>
>> (I hate representing "oh" as [@U] as I know I don't pronounce it that
>> way and nor do I say [oU], but I not sure what the onset vowel is: [E]?
>> [a]? I'm really not sure.)
>
> Is a "maroon" the opposite of a "green"?
>
>

It is in Edinburgh, where Heart of Midlothian FC play in maroon shirts
and their arch-rivals Hibernian play in green.

And most Hearts supporters will pronounce it "muh-roan", if only to
avoid the pub joke:

Q: What colour do Hearts play in?
A: Maroon
- Ah, thanks, I'll have a pint.

That is, deliberately misinterpreting "maroon" as "mah roon'" meaning
my turn to buy a round of drinks.
--
Gordon Davie
Edinburgh, Scotland

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Sun, 19 Jul 2015 12:16:29 +0100, GordonD <g.d...@btinternet.com>
wrote:

Thanks for the explanation. I pronounce "maroon" as "muh roon" (stressed
second syllable) which would not work, as "muh" is not a usual variant
pronunciation of "my" in the way that "mah" is.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[erilar]

In article <d0r6h6...@mid.individual.net>,

Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:

> On 16/07/2015 6:55 am, erilar wrote:
> > In article <d0lpn6...@mid.individual.net>,

> > Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On 15/07/2015 6:17 am, Janet wrote:
> >>
> >>> Plural of dwarf always was "dwarves" surely. Like hoof/hooves, calf
> >>> /calves.
> >>
> >> Not really, but I think you're going to start further controversy now.
> >> I say hoof/hooves and roof/rooves, but plenty of other people say hoofs
> >> and roofs.
> >
> > I'm split: hooves and roofs 8-)
> >
> I notice too that most of the people who say "hoofs" use the "pull"
> vowel, whereas I use the "pool" vowel.

v pulls the vowel down a bit compared to f: oov vs uf This may be a
factor, but only for the plurals.

--
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist

[erilar]

In article <slrnmqic3o...@anukis.local>,

> FWIW, I pronounce "hoof" [h?f] and "roof" [ru:f]. (I associate [r?f]

> with the midwestern US, but I don't really have a good idea of its
> distribution.)

Despite actual dialect study and spending most of my life in the upper
midwest, although not always in the same part, I've picked up bits of
other dialect pronunciations over the decades, further complicated by
fluency in German, so I'm not always sure about UM pronunciation 8-) I
believe [r?f] is more common here, but won't swear to it.

--
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist

[erilar]

In article <slrnmqgls0....@amelia.local>,

Lewis <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

> I do not think dwarves is in any sense made up. It was an old usage that
> he resurrected, as I understand it.

Note on "old spellings": the whole "proper spelling" thing is a modern
invention from the perspective of a philologist, after all. I'm one.
Tolkien was one....

--
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist

[erilar]

In article <slrnmqli4p...@anukis.local>,

Will Parsons <va...@nodomain.invalid> wrote:

> I quoted from Tolkien himself (in App. F to LotR) rather than
> Wikipedia, but yes, the 1st paragraph of the Wikipedia article you
> quoted above does reflect what I wrote. (The 2nd paragraph seems a
> bit confused.)

Ah, but Wiki is not the OED, if you want to cite authority.. Who wrote
the Wiki article?

--
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist

[Will Parsons]

The question was about why Tolkien chose "dwarves". I cited Tolkien
himself on why, who I think should be regarded as authoritative on
that question. I don't care about Wiki.

--
Will