To have / write a dictation.
Irina Tkachova
it arises too often. One of the textbooks (written by Russian authors)
that I use gives the phrase "to have a dictation", but all my students say
"to write a dictation" because that is the verb we use in Russian. Is it
possible to say "write" in the sentences given below?
Tomorrow we are going to have / write a dictation.
We don't have / write a lot of dictations in class.
They're having / writing a dictation now.
--
Irina Tkachova
Charles Riggs
The person doing the speaking can be said to be "giving a dictation"
if the words are meant to be written down verbatim. The person writing
down the words is generally said to be "taking a dictation". It is not
a word that would generally be used in a classroom situation but,
rather, when a businessman is dictating a letter to his or her
secretary, for example. I wonder if "lecture" and the corresponding
"take notes" are not the words you want, instead of "dictation"?
Charles Riggs
Charles Riggs
R J Valentine
] There is a question that has been bothering me for a long time because
] it arises too often. One of the textbooks (written by Russian authors)
] that I use gives the phrase "to have a dictation", but all my students say
] "to write a dictation" because that is the verb we use in Russian. Is it
] possible to say "write" in the sentences given below?
]
] Tomorrow we are going to have / write a dictation.
] We don't have / write a lot of dictations in class.
] They're having / writing a dictation now.
Myself, I wouldn't generally use an article with "dictation" or use it in
the plural or use it as the object of any word but "take". You do mean
writing down verbatim what someone is saying out loud for the purpose of
having someone write it down verbatim, right?
Tomorrow we are going to take dictation.
We don't take a lot of dictation in class.
They're taking dictation now.
I guess both "have" and "write" are possible, especially if enough people
are saying it and everyone knows what they mean, but they both sound
unusual to me. The "write" would seem to be focusing more on what the
students are doing, but the "have" could include the teacher, who I
suppose might "give" the dictation.
But it could be I just lead a sheltered life.
--
R. J. Valentine <mailto:r...@clark.net>
GrapeApe
here. Also our educational system doesn't seem to
emphasize learning by rote.
In the US, we are more likely to TAKE dictation. (transcribe what is being said
as one DICTATES).
We are more likely to use the verb "Write" when the writing is expressing ones
own thoughts, rather than transcribing someone elses lecture. Write has an
active sense. We write the transcription, but the speaker or some other author
probably wrote the dictation.
----
The following structures seem more natural to me...
Tommorow in Stenography class you will take dictation for 30 minutes.
Or
The lectures will be dictation for the first three sessions, then the
instructors will take questions from the class in the following sessions.
or
We will HAVE dictation for 45 minutes , followed by a 15 minute question and
answer period.
---
Dictation rarely takes a singular article such as 'A' dictation or 'THE'
dictation, in the sense of the examples you offered. It is also not often used
in a plural sense, being thought of more commonly as a collective noun perhaps.
(The Classes were all Dictation).
"Having or Writing (a) dictation" is not common usage, at least in US dialect.
We when write what is being said to us, we are transcribing the dictation. We
do not write the dictation, we take dictation. The professor telling us what he
wishes for us to write down is dictating.
If we WROTE a dictation, it would seem to us as though we were the AUTHORS of
the speech, rather than the transcribers of the speech. (Although we are
'writing' in the act of transcription, we are not the authors of what is being
spoken for us to transcribe)
>Tomorrow we are going to have / write a dictation.
Tommorow's class will be dictation rather than discussion.
>We don't have / write a lot of dictations in class.
We do not have much dictation in class. In fact there is rarely a lecture at
all.
>They're having / writing a dictation now.
They are taking dictation. Don't disturb them, they are trying to transcribe
the lecture.
Dictation- I speak, you write down what I speak.
When we write down what is dictated, we are taking dictation.
When are to write down what is said, verbatim. We do not write a dictation. We
are taking dictation, it is being dictated TO us. We TRANSCRIBE a LECTURE.
If we are told "write down the following dictation", we TAKE DICTATION or
TRANSCRIBE.
If we HAVE dictation, it means we will be expected to write down what is said,
rather than some other class activity.
KajLina
> On Sat, 25 Mar 2000 08:09:21 +0300, "Irina Tkachova"
> <irina...@mtu-net.ru> wrote:
>
> >Tomorrow we are going to have / write a dictation.
> >We don't have / write a lot of dictations in class.
> >They're having / writing a dictation now.
>
> The person doing the speaking can be said to be "giving a dictation"
> if the words are meant to be written down verbatim. The person writing
> down the words is generally said to be "taking a dictation". It is not
> a word that would generally be used in a classroom situation but,
> rather, when a businessman is dictating a letter to his or her
> secretary, for example. I wonder if "lecture" and the corresponding
> "take notes" are not the words you want, instead of "dictation"?
>
What about take/have a bath, do/have/take a revision?
Do you use 'take' in the above phrases as well?
--
KajLina
---------
http://freehomepages.com/kajlina/kajlinafoto.html (my pic/mia foto)
http://mypage.goplay.com/china_108 (my homepage/mia hejmpagxo)(Vidu pagxo ses
por samideano)
http://freehomepages.com/china108/photoalbum1.html (my photo album/mia
fotoalbumo)
Carmela Chateau
KajLina a écrit :
> Charles Riggs wrote:
>
> > On Sat, 25 Mar 2000 08:09:21 +0300, "Irina Tkachova"
> > <irina...@mtu-net.ru> wrote:
> >
> > >Tomorrow we are going to have / write a dictation.
> > >We don't have / write a lot of dictations in class.
> > >They're having / writing a dictation now.
> >
> > The person doing the speaking can be said to be "giving a dictation"
> > if the words are meant to be written down verbatim. The person writing
> > down the words is generally said to be "taking a dictation". It is not
> > a word that would generally be used in a classroom situation but,
> > rather, when a businessman is dictating a letter to his or her
> > secretary, for example. I wonder if "lecture" and the corresponding
> > "take notes" are not the words you want, instead of "dictation"?
No, I think the problem here is for foreign language students, a dictation being
a test of your ability to write down correctly what you hear. So in this context,
as a teacher of English as a foreign language I would say:
Tomorrow I'm going to give you a dictation.
You will have a dictation tomorrow.
I want you to write down what I dictate to you.
But does giving a dictation make me a dictator?
Robert Lipton
Irina Tkachova wrote:
>
> There is a question that has been bothering me for a long time because
> it arises too often. One of the textbooks (written by Russian authors)
> that I use gives the phrase "to have a dictation", but all my students say
> "to write a dictation" because that is the verb we use in Russian. Is it
> possible to say "write" in the sentences given below?
>
> Tomorrow we are going to have / write a dictation.
> We don't have / write a lot of dictations in class.
> They're having / writing a dictation now.
Dictation is a form of composition. You say what you you want written
down. Someone writes it down. The person who does the speaking is
'doing the dictation' or 'giving dictation' -- derived from the Latin
word for 'speak' -- and the person who does the writing is 'taking' or
'writing down' the dictation. You don't 'write dictation'. You also
can't do 'a' dictation. It is not idiomatically correct.
Bob
Andre Proulx
Irina Tkachova <irina...@mtu-net.ru> wrote in message
news:8bhihj$3jp$1...@gavrilo.mtu.ru...
> There is a question that has been bothering me for a long time because
> it arises too often. One of the textbooks (written by Russian authors)
> that I use gives the phrase "to have a dictation", but all my students say
> "to write a dictation" because that is the verb we use in Russian. Is it
> possible to say "write" in the sentences given below?
>
> Tomorrow we are going to have / write a dictation.
> We don't have / write a lot of dictations in class.
> They're having / writing a dictation now.
>
dictée". This particular classroom exercise involves the teacher reading
aloud a paragraph or passage and the students transcribing it verbatim. It
is similar to a spelling test but focuses not only on individual words but
on their relationship within a given sentence. It is such a common practice
that there are televised "dictée" contests, similar to organised spelling
bees (hey, I didn't say they made for thrilling television - just that they
exist). In fact "avoir une dictée" is used in much the same way as "have a
spelling bee", where the action involved is only a part of the larger event
or exercise. All that being said, I would translate it as "have a dictation
exercise".
André Proulx
Engkent
R J Valentine wrote in message ...
>Myself, I wouldn't generally use an article with "dictation" or use it in
>the plural or use it as the object of any word but "take". You do mean
>writing down verbatim what someone is saying out loud for the purpose of
>having someone write it down verbatim, right?
>
> Tomorrow we are going to take dictation.
> We don't take a lot of dictation in class.
> They're taking dictation now.
>
...
>But it could be I just lead a sheltered life.
Sheltered indeed, if you haven't studied foreign languages. Your use of
"take" is fine for the standard uses of dictation, but I wouldn't use it in
the examples you have. In language classes, dictations are exercises or
tests, and the word would be used with an article in that sense.
The teacher is giving us a dictation tomorrow.
Lucia
Skitt
Charles Riggs wrote in message ...
>>it arises too often. One of the textbooks (written by Russian authors)
>>that I use gives the phrase "to have a dictation", but all my students say
>>"to write a dictation" because that is the verb we use in Russian. Is it
>>possible to say "write" in the sentences given below?
>>
>>Tomorrow we are going to have / write a dictation.
>>We don't have / write a lot of dictations in class.
>>They're having / writing a dictation now.
>
>if the words are meant to be written down verbatim. The person writing
>down the words is generally said to be "taking a dictation". It is not
>a word that would generally be used in a classroom situation but,
>rather, when a businessman is dictating a letter to his or her
>secretary, for example. I wonder if "lecture" and the corresponding
>"take notes" are not the words you want, instead of "dictation"?
Aha! You are not familiar with classroom practice in other countries. In
Latvia, for instance, giving dictation was common in Latvian language
classes. It tested the students' ability to spell and, above all, punctuate
long and complex sentences. It was to be feared by one and all, because
just a few errors resulted in a poor grade.
--
Skitt
Mark Brader
> > There is a question that has been bothering me for a long time because
> > it arises too often. One of the textbooks (written by Russian authors)
> > that I use gives the phrase "to have a dictation", but all my students say
> > "to write a dictation" because that is the verb we use in Russian.
> > Tomorrow we are going to have / write a dictation.
> > We don't have / write a lot of dictations in class.
> > They're having / writing a dictation now.
I'd say "have" is the correct verb for an activity that the class will perform.
If "a dictation" means "an exercise where the teacher dictates to the class",
then "have a dictation" is fine, just as the class would "have a test".
R.J. Valentine writes:
> Myself, I wouldn't generally use an article with "dictation" or use it in
> the plural...
That's because "dictation" is usually a mass noun. But in connection with
a classroom exercise, I think it can be a count noun with the meaning that
I gave above.
I remember that when I was learning French, we would have similarly have
"une dictée" (count noun), not "de la dictée" (mass noun). But of course
that's French usage, not English.
> Tomorrow we are going to take dictation.
> We don't take a lot of dictation in class.
> They're taking dictation now.
This is fine when you're using "dictation" in its usual sense as a mass noun.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto cat>/dev/null got your tongue?
m...@vex.net -- Jutta Degener
My text in this article is in the public domain.
Irina Tkachova
Russian teachers:
1) The teacher dictates separate words and phrases in Russian
and the students are to translate them into English (or any other
foreign language). In this way the teacher checks the students'
knowledge of words and their spelling skills. This test is given
when teaching a foreign language.
2) The second kind of test is usual at the lessons of the Russian
language in Russian schools. The teacher reads aloud a passage
containing difficult words (most often it is an excerpt from a book
by a famous writer). To do well in this kind of test it is necessary
to spell correctly and know punctuation rules.
How would you call these two types of tests in English?
--
Irina Tkachova
Mark Odegard
As this thread testifies, English does not really have these
kinds of tests, at least for native-speakers.
We do have spelling tests, where the teacher reads words
aloud.
I have no memory, nor have I ever head of students being read
a passage with the expectation they will transcribe it onto
paper.
This is probably a comment on the monolingualism you get here
in the US. Few feel any urgency to become proficient in a
foreign language. North of the Rio Grande, and excluding
Quebec, North America is monolithically English-speaking, from
sea to shining sea. It's like travelling from Calais to the
Ural Mountains and hearing one, and ONLY one language.
--
Mark Odegard
Andre Proulx
> There are two kinds of tests, both called [diktant] = "dictation" by
> Russian teachers:
>
> 1) The teacher dictates separate words and phrases in Russian
> and the students are to translate them into English (or any other
> foreign language). In this way the teacher checks the students'
> knowledge of words and their spelling skills. This test is given
> when teaching a foreign language.
>
> 2) The second kind of test is usual at the lessons of the Russian
> language in Russian schools. The teacher reads aloud a passage
> containing difficult words (most often it is an excerpt from a book
> by a famous writer). To do well in this kind of test it is necessary
> to spell correctly and know punctuation rules.
>
> How would you call these two types of tests in English?
>
or perhaps a vocabulary test.
The second sounds exactly like a French "dictée" and doesn't really have an
equivalent in English. I would hesitate to use "dictation test" because
that invites the image of a student in a business school being tested for
shorthand skills or the use of a dictaphone. However, in situations where
the context does not lead to confusion, such as a classroom where everyone
knows exactly what a "dictation test" involves, I would probably use it.
André Proulx
stanislav shalunov
> There are two kinds of tests, both called [diktant] = "dictation" by
> Russian teachers:
>
> 1) The teacher dictates separate words and phrases in Russian
> and the students are to translate them into English (or any other
> foreign language).
While this isn't alt.usage.russian, but vocabulary tests certainly
weren't called "diktant" in my high school. These tests were quite
common in second and third grades and were called "rabota so
slovarem".
> 2) The second kind of test is usual at the lessons of the Russian
> language in Russian schools.
I don't think they have this sort of tests in the U.S.
Robert Lipton
Irina Tkachova wrote:
>
> There are two kinds of tests, both called [diktant] = "dictation" by
> Russian teachers:
>
> 1) The teacher dictates separate words and phrases in Russian
> and the students are to translate them into English (or any other
> foreign language). In this way the teacher checks the students'
> knowledge of words and their spelling skills. This test is given
> when teaching a foreign language.
>
> 2) The second kind of test is usual at the lessons of the Russian
> language in Russian schools. The teacher reads aloud a passage
> containing difficult words (most often it is an excerpt from a book
> by a famous writer). To do well in this kind of test it is necessary
> to spell correctly and know punctuation rules.
>
> How would you call these two types of tests in English?
Here is a case where the cognates are not good translations: true
'dictant' and 'dictation' are both descended from the Latin word for
'to speak' but they apparently mean two different things. In the first
case I would say "We are to be tested in translation" or "We are to be
tested on translation."
The second does sound like dictation, except that in dictation as
practiced hereabouts, the dictator specifies the punctuation, paragraph
breaks and which homophone is to be used if there in any ambiguity. I
would say it is stretching the definition of 'dictation' a bit, but "we
are to be tested in dictation" or "we are to be tested on dictation"
would probably not be incorrect.... or even "we are to be tested by
(means of) dictation."
Bob
Charles Riggs
>
>Charles Riggs wrote in message ...
>>On Sat, 25 Mar 2000 08:09:21 +0300, "Irina Tkachova"
>><irina...@mtu-net.ru> wrote:
>>
>>>There is a question that has been bothering me for a long time because
>>>it arises too often. One of the textbooks (written by Russian authors)
>>>that I use gives the phrase "to have a dictation", but all my students say
>>>"to write a dictation" because that is the verb we use in Russian. Is it
>>>possible to say "write" in the sentences given below?
>>>
>>>Tomorrow we are going to have / write a dictation.
>>>We don't have / write a lot of dictations in class.
>>>They're having / writing a dictation now.
>>
>>The person doing the speaking can be said to be "giving a dictation"
>>if the words are meant to be written down verbatim. The person writing
>>down the words is generally said to be "taking a dictation". It is not
>>a word that would generally be used in a classroom situation but,
>>rather, when a businessman is dictating a letter to his or her
>>secretary, for example. I wonder if "lecture" and the corresponding
>>"take notes" are not the words you want, instead of "dictation"?
>
>
>Aha! You are not familiar with classroom practice in other countries. In
>Latvia, for instance, giving dictation was common in Latvian language
>classes. It tested the students' ability to spell and, above all, punctuate
>long and complex sentences. It was to be feared by one and all, because
>just a few errors resulted in a poor grade.
Yes, I didn't think of that possibility. I guess I was just lucky with
my experiences in foreign language classes.
Charles Riggs
khann
>
> There are two kinds of tests, both called [diktant] = "dictation" by
> Russian teachers:
>
> 1) The teacher dictates separate words and phrases in Russian
> and the students are to translate them into English (or any other
> foreign language). In this way the teacher checks the students'
> knowledge of words and their spelling skills. This test is given
> when teaching a foreign language.
>
> 2) The second kind of test is usual at the lessons of the Russian
> language in Russian schools. The teacher reads aloud a passage
> containing difficult words (most often it is an excerpt from a book
> by a famous writer). To do well in this kind of test it is necessary
> to spell correctly and know punctuation rules.
>
> How would you call these two types of tests in English?
>
Likely other terms are used elsewhere, but in my school the first of
these two tests was a "dictée" when the language being tested was
French, and "dictation" when the language was Latin. The second type of
test, English to English, was also "dictation". Generically, they are
all tests of "aural comprehension".
KHann
Marion Gevers
>"Irina Tkachova" <irina...@mtu-net.ru> writes:
>
>> There are two kinds of tests, both called [diktant] = "dictation" by
>> Russian teachers:
>>
>> 1) The teacher dictates separate words and phrases in Russian
>> and the students are to translate them into English (or any other
>> foreign language).
>
>weren't called "diktant" in my high school. These tests were quite
>common in second and third grades and were called "rabota so
>slovarem".
Ah, that makes it clearer. We called it "vocabulary drill".
>> 2) The second kind of test is usual at the lessons of the Russian
>> language in Russian schools.
>
>I don't think they have this sort of tests in the U.S.
They're common enough in Australia. At least, they were when I
went to school. That's the one we called "dictation". Except
in the French classes, where we called it "dictée". (French
was the only foreign language we were taught, unless you count
a few months of Latin from a completely incompetent teacher.)
--
Peter Moylan
Richard Fontana
> There is a question that has been bothering me for a long time because
> it arises too often. One of the textbooks (written by Russian authors)
> that I use gives the phrase "to have a dictation", but all my students say
> "to write a dictation" because that is the verb we use in Russian. Is it
> possible to say "write" in the sentences given below?
>
> Tomorrow we are going to have / write a dictation.
> We don't have / write a lot of dictations in class.
> They're having / writing a dictation now.
"Write" doesn't seem idiomatic to me. "Have" or "do" is what I'd
expect to hear, in the context of a language class, though it has
an informal sound. This is different, but in an office workplace setting
a secretary will "take" dictation.
RF
Richard Fontana
> What about take/have a bath, do/have/take a revision?
> Do you use 'take' in the above phrases as well?
I would say "take a bath", but I do not regard "have a bath"
as wrong, just unfamiliar, not typical of the American English
I speak and usually hear spoken.
If I were revising something and I had to use the word "revision"
instead of the verb "revise", I would use "do" or possibly
"make", definitely not "have" or "take", both of which sound wrong. But
"do a revision" sounds quite informal; in a more formal English I would
use "revise".
RF
Skitt
Richard Fontana wrote in message ...
I believe that the teacher meant to ask for a review, not a revision. I
think, KajLina explained in a previous post that nothing was to be changed
(revised). There also has been a mention of AmE and BrE differences. Mine,
of course, is the AmE view.
--
Skitt (in Hayward, CA) http://skitt.i.am/
Richard Fontana
> There are two kinds of tests, both called [diktant] = "dictation" by
> Russian teachers:
>
> 1) The teacher dictates separate words and phrases in Russian
> and the students are to translate them into English (or any other
> foreign language). In this way the teacher checks the students'
> knowledge of words and their spelling skills. This test is given
> when teaching a foreign language.
>
> 2) The second kind of test is usual at the lessons of the Russian
> language in Russian schools. The teacher reads aloud a passage
> containing difficult words (most often it is an excerpt from a book
> by a famous writer). To do well in this kind of test it is necessary
> to spell correctly and know punctuation rules.
>
> How would you call these two types of tests in English?
1) is definitely not a dictation. I'd call it a test (or a quiz
or an exam if appropriate; test is more general). I don't
think there's a more specific one-word term for this kind of
test; you could call it an "English test", a vocabulary test,
a spelling test, a test of English spelling and vocabulary, etc.
It wouldn't be called a "translation", though it could be called
"a test which involves translation" (but this, and especially
"translation" itself, suggests a test consisting of a long passage
which has to be translated from or to some language).
2) If I understand you right (if this involves the teacher reading
an English passage aloud, and students have to transcribe it),
I'd call that a "dictation".
RF
stanislav shalunov
> They're common enough in Australia. At least, they were when I
> went to school. That's the one we called "dictation".
Just to confirm: "diktant" in Russian usually means a test when
teacher reads an excerpt from some book (usually in Russian) and
students are expected to transcribe it.
Is it what is called "dictation" in Australian schools?
Alex Chernavsky
>Just to confirm: "diktant" in Russian usually means
>a test when teacher reads an excerpt from some
>book (usually in Russian) and students are expected
>to transcribe it.
I thought that the Russian word was "diktovka". Is that not the case, or
are "diktant" and "diktovka" two different things?
--
Alex Chernavsky
al...@astrocyte-design.com
stanislav shalunov
> I thought that the Russian word was "diktovka". Is that not the case, or
> are "diktant" and "diktovka" two different things?
I don't think "diktovka" can be used to refer to a test. Test is
called "diktant". "Diktovka" by itself isn't (wasn't in my school,
anyway) that much used. It was mostly part of "[pisat'] pod
diktovku". Or it refers to the process of reading/speaking/composing
while somebody else transcribes.
On the other hand, "diktant" just means a test.
In my opinion, "diktovka" is a relevant translation of AmE "dictation"
while "diktant" is something that has no name in AmE.
Alex Chernavsky
[a description of the difference between the Russian words "diktant" and
"diktovka"]
Thanks for your answer. I just learned something.
--
Alex Chernavsky
al...@astrocyte-design.com
Peter Moylan
>mar...@eepjm.newcastle.edu.au (Marion Gevers) writes:
>
>> They're common enough in Australia. At least, they were when I
>> went to school. That's the one we called "dictation".
>
>teacher reads an excerpt from some book (usually in Russian) and
>students are expected to transcribe it.
>
Yes, that is exactly right. Except that it's done in English in
our schools, because most of the kids don't understand Russian.
Now that I think of it, I can't recall my children every talking
about dictation at school. Perhaps it's gone out of fashion.
--
Peter Moylan pe...@ee.newcastle.edu.au
See http://eepjm.newcastle.edu.au for OS/2 information and software
D. Spencer Hines
about dictation at school. Perhaps it's gone out of fashion."
Peter Moylan
---------------------------
Yes. Of course.
1. It's too much work for the teachers.
2. It's too much work for the students.
3. It's "old-fashioned"
4. "We'll be popular with the students if we do away with it."
5. The Doctors of Education don't seem to approve or write about it
very much.
6. It's "too mechanical" and "not creative" enough. It's Rote
Learning.
7. So, let's deep-six it.
Problem Solved.
That was easy, wasn't it?
Modern Educational Theory in Action.
A winner every time. Only the student loses in the end.
----
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"He'll say, You're a woman. Yes. You live in California. Yes. You
have a good job. Yes. You enjoy life. Yes. So why did you steal the
money? And you've been nodding along, and suddenly you're flustered,
you're off balance --- and he's got a reaction he can use." [N. B. On
Television --- With reference to a Mike Wallace-like character. ---
DSH.] Michael Crichton, "Airframe" (1996); Alfred A. Knopf, New York,
p. 282.
D._Spencer_Hines_TD [at] aya.ballast.yale.edu
Jettison ballast before testing rig in light airs.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
D. Spencer Hines
Everyone else in the educational system makes out.
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"He'll say, You're a woman. Yes. You live in California. Yes. You
have a good job. Yes. You enjoy life. Yes. So why did you steal the
money? And you've been nodding along, and suddenly you're flustered,
you're off balance --- and he's got a reaction he can use." [N. B. On
Television --- With reference to a Mike Wallace-like character. ---
DSH.] Michael Crichton, "Airframe" (1996); Alfred A. Knopf, New York,
p. 282.
D._Spencer_Hines_TD [at] aya.ballast.yale.edu
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"D. Spencer Hines" <D._Spence...@aya.ballast.yale.edu> wrote in
message news:...
Irina Tkachova
stanislav shalunov in <873dpdt...@sharik.worldnet.att.net> wrote:
Although I have never heard "dictovka" used in reference to a vocabulary
test, the Russian Encyclopedic Dictionary does give it as a second
meaning. I think this usage is outdated.
--
Irina Tkachova
Irina Tkachova
Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English (the preface to it
was written by Randolf Quirk, which I think allows one to regard
this dictionary as a reliable source):
1. [Uncountable] the act of dictating or of writing down what is
dictated.
2. [Countable] A piece of writing that is dictated to test one's ability
to hear and write a foreign language correctly.
Can it be that teachers of foreign languages in England do use the
word "dictation" in the meaning similar to the one used in Russia?
--
Irina Tkachova
Stephen Toogood
<markode...@hotmail.com> writes
>On Sat, 25 Mar 2000 22:31:44 +0300, "Irina Tkachova"
>
>>There are two kinds of tests, both called [diktant] = "dictation" by
>>Russian teachers:
>>
>>1) The teacher dictates separate words and phrases in Russian
>>and the students are to translate them into English (or any other
>>foreign language). In this way the teacher checks the students'
>>knowledge of words and their spelling skills. This test is given
>>when teaching a foreign language.
>>
>>2) The second kind of test is usual at the lessons of the Russian
>>language in Russian schools. The teacher reads aloud a passage
>>containing difficult words (most often it is an excerpt from a book
>>by a famous writer). To do well in this kind of test it is necessary
>>to spell correctly and know punctuation rules.
>>
>>How would you call these two types of tests in English?
>
>kinds of tests, at least for native-speakers.
We certainly had them in the UK up to the 1970s. They have the advantage
that they're less boring than spelling tests, and test punctuation as
well. Generally, they were given in foreign language lessons, and may
still be, but in English as well to the under-11 age group. I remember
having Dictations at about 13, by which time they had become compendia
of abstruseness to extend our vocabulary as well as to test the
spelling.
I vividly remember 'we were deceived into believing that the necessary
accommodation was available, but the attendant to the committee informed
us of the tragedy of the circumstances...' Come to think of it, there
seems something vaguely Russian about that extract...
Dictations fell from favour for a variety of reasons, but among the most
telling was the move to mixed-ability teaching. Dictations depend on
everybody being able to write at about the same speed, and if you have
one or two slow pupils in a generally bright class it gets distinctly
tedious for the majority, who then have time to think of creative mis-
hearings.
>
--
Stephen Toogood
Don H Arnold
> There is a question that has been bothering me for a long time because
> it arises too often. One of the textbooks (written by Russian authors)
> that I use gives the phrase "to have a dictation", but all my students say
> "to write a dictation" because that is the verb we use in Russian. Is it
> possible to say "write" in the sentences given below?
>
> Tomorrow we are going to have / write a dictation.
> We don't have / write a lot of dictations in class.
> They're having / writing a dictation now.
>
> --
> Irina Tkachova
I will assume that a dictation in this case is a kind of test, used to test
both auditory recognition of words and written vocabulary, spelling, grammar,
and punctuation.
Having made this assumption, it sounds a bit better to my ear to say "We are
going to have a dictation" rather than "We are going to write a dictation",
on the grounds that the second sentence seems to have a redudancy in it. The
word "dictation" implies that some writing is going to occur by some party
involved, so saying "We are going to write a dictation", while not exactly
ungrammatical, is a bit... strained.
Of course, in my neck of the US woods, we "take dictation". But it seems to
me that one could substitute the word "test" for "dictation" to get a better
sense of how it might sound in US English. The members of the UK might beg
to differ with me on this, however.
Don H. Arnold
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