The seven primary forms of Art

[occam]

Reading around on the web, I saw cartoons strips (FR. "les bandes
dessinées" ) described as the 9th Art form.

I did a search, and here are the seven 'primary' art forms, as accepted
at present:

1- Painting ; 2-Sculpture; 3- Architecture; 4- Literature; 5- Music; 6-
Cinema; 7-Theatre;

and 9- Les bandes dessinées (cartoon strips), if we are to believe the
French and the Belgians. (There is even a Museum of cartoon strips in
Brussels https://www.comicscenter.net/en/home .)

I was expecting to see photography in there somewhere, but alas.

Anyone know what number 8 is?

[Jerry Friedman]

On Sunday, May 28, 2023 at 6:22:50 AM UTC-6, occam wrote:
> Reading around on the web, I saw cartoons strips (FR. "les bandes
> dessinées" ) described as the 9th Art form.
>
> I did a search, and here are the seven 'primary' art forms, as accepted
> at present:
>
> 1- Painting ; 2-Sculpture; 3- Architecture; 4- Literature; 5- Music; 6-
> Cinema; 7-Theatre;

I wouldn't distinguish cinema and theater in a list at this level.

> and 9- Les bandes dessinées (cartoon strips), if we are to believe the
> French and the Belgians. (There is even a Museum of cartoon strips in
> Brussels https://www.comicscenter.net/en/home .)
>
> I was expecting to see photography in there somewhere, but alas.
>
> Anyone know what number 8 is?

Surely dance.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

That was the first one I missed.

> Anyone know what number 8 is?

It should come before Cinema - as it did historically.

Computer programming was the next one I missed. And I mean the program
as such. The result will often be merely technical or fall in one of the
other categories.

I once read about one of the first programmers. Someone who worked with
him, thought that he ought to be remembered. He described his
achievements. I remember that he timed the rotation of a drum in order
to be able to trigger a certain operation at the optimal point. I wish
that I had kept a link, but I haven't.

--
Bertel, Denmark

[Peter T. Daniels]

There ought to be one for each Muse, no?

Calliope (epic poetry)
Clio (history)
Euterpe (flutes and music)
Thalia (comedy and pastoral poetry)
Melpomene (tragedy)
Terpsichore (dance)
Erato (love poetry and lyric poetry)
Polyhymnia (hymns and sacred poetry)
Urania (astronomy)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muses

[occam]

On 28/05/2023 14:58, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Sunday, May 28, 2023 at 6:22:50 AM UTC-6, occam wrote:
>> Reading around on the web, I saw cartoons strips (FR. "les bandes
>> dessinées" ) described as the 9th Art form.
>>
>> I did a search, and here are the seven 'primary' art forms, as accepted
>> at present:
>>
>> 1- Painting ; 2-Sculpture; 3- Architecture; 4- Literature; 5- Music; 6-
>> Cinema; 7-Theatre;
>
> I wouldn't distinguish cinema and theater in a list at this level.

Yet they are distinct. Theater is live and happens on a stage, whereas
the final resting place of films is celluloid (or digital, more
recently). There is a directness in a theatre play that is not there in
films. The latter is the result of editing and wide distribution, which
does not/cannot happen with theatre pieces.

[Jerry Friedman]

On Sunday, May 28, 2023 at 12:45:58 PM UTC-6, occam wrote:
> On 28/05/2023 14:58, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 28, 2023 at 6:22:50 AM UTC-6, occam wrote:
> >> Reading around on the web, I saw cartoons strips (FR. "les bandes
> >> dessinées" ) described as the 9th Art form.
> >>
> >> I did a search, and here are the seven 'primary' art forms, as accepted
> >> at present:
> >>
> >> 1- Painting ; 2-Sculpture; 3- Architecture; 4- Literature; 5- Music; 6-
> >> Cinema; 7-Theatre;
> >
> > I wouldn't distinguish cinema and theater in a list at this level.

> Yet they are distinct. Theater is live and happens on a stage, whereas
> the final resting place of films is celluloid (or digital, more
> recently). There is a directness in a theatre play that is not there in
> films. The latter is the result of editing and wide distribution, which
> does not/cannot happen with theatre pieces.

...

Very true, but on the same grounds we could say that live music and
recorded music are different art forms, or poetry readings and
reading poetry.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Sam Plusnet]

Flower arranging and graffiti are both missing, though the latter is a
part of 1 above.

Culinary arts?

--
Sam Plusnet

[Bebercito]

Le dimanche 28 mai 2023 à 14:22:50 UTC+2, occam a écrit :
> Reading around on the web, I saw cartoons strips (FR. "les bandes
> dessinées" ) described as the 9th Art form.
>
> I did a search, and here are the seven 'primary' art forms, as accepted
> at present:
>
> 1- Painting ; 2-Sculpture; 3- Architecture; 4- Literature; 5- Music; 6-
> Cinema;

Offhand, I'd say that sounds wrong, as a well-known antonomasia for
the cinema is "the seventh art".

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

It's a famous piece of praise in computer circles; but it was of someone
trying to amend the program; which he discovered relied upon timing.

I expect someone over in afc will remember it better than I do.


xpost added



--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

[Ken Blake]

On Sun, 28 May 2023 12:18:12 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
<jerry.fr...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, May 28, 2023 at 12:45:58?PM UTC-6, occam wrote:
>> On 28/05/2023 14:58, Jerry Friedman wrote:

>> > On Sunday, May 28, 2023 at 6:22:50?AM UTC-6, occam wrote:
>> >> Reading around on the web, I saw cartoons strips (FR. "les bandes
>> >> dessinées" ) described as the 9th Art form.
>> >>
>> >> I did a search, and here are the seven 'primary' art forms, as accepted
>> >> at present:
>> >>
>> >> 1- Painting ; 2-Sculpture; 3- Architecture; 4- Literature; 5- Music; 6-
>> >> Cinema; 7-Theatre;
>> >
>> > I wouldn't distinguish cinema and theater in a list at this level.
>
>> Yet they are distinct. Theater is live and happens on a stage, whereas
>> the final resting place of films is celluloid (or digital, more
>> recently). There is a directness in a theatre play that is not there in
>> films. The latter is the result of editing and wide distribution, which
>> does not/cannot happen with theatre pieces.
>...
>
>Very true, but on the same grounds we could say that live music and
>recorded music are different art forms, or poetry readings and
>reading poetry.

I disagree. Theater and films are very distinct forms of art..

Theater is what you see when it's performed. Film is a construction
from what was performed. There's cutting, zooming, shots from
different angles, closeups, distant shots, panning, moving camera,
montage (think of the famous Odessa Steps scene in Potemkin), wipes.
indoor scenes and outdoor scenes, direct cuts from one scene to
another. and many other film techniques that don't come to mind
quickly. None of those things can be done in theater.


There was once at least one film made (I can't remember its name) that
was a direct capture of a theater performance, without any of the
techniques I mentioned above. Yes, that would essentially not be a
different art form, but it's completely atypical of film.

And Hitchcock's film "Rope" was one long shot was one long shot
without many of the techniques, but again completely atypical.

Recorded music is a capture of a performance of live music. Except for
the visual aspects of live music, they are essentially the same, as
far as I'm concerned.

Reading poetry and listening to poetry being read are slightly
different, since what you hear could be very different from what you
say to yourself if you read it. But In my opinion that difference is
much smaller than the difference between film and theater.

[bozo de niro]

Voice

[bozo de niro]

On Sunday, May 28, 2023 at 5:22:50 AM UTC-7, occam wrote:

Voice song and dance

[bozo de niro]

Voice song dance opera

[Jerry Friedman]

Sure, but playing a piano is very different from singing. Pencil drawing
is very different from oil painting. Film and theater show you sequences
of images, usually with people acting, and at the level of the distinction
between music, sculpture, painting, etc., I consider film and theater to
be one thing.

> There was once at least one film made (I can't remember its name) that
> was a direct capture of a theater performance, without any of the
> techniques I mentioned above. Yes, that would essentially not be a
> different art form, but it's completely atypical of film.

OK, we'll ignore it.

> And Hitchcock's film "Rope" was one long shot was one long shot
> without many of the techniques, but again completely atypical.

Eight shots, I think, but irrelevant, as you say.

> Recorded music is a capture of a performance of live music.

That hasn't been true since the '50s or '60s.

> Except for
> the visual aspects of live music, they are essentially the same, as
> far as I'm concerned.
>
> Reading poetry and listening to poetry being read are slightly
> different, since what you hear could be very different from what you
> say to yourself if you read it. But In my opinion that difference is
> much smaller than the difference between film and theater.

--
Jerry Friedman

[bozo de niro]

And when telepathy and AI kick in, we'll have a few more for sure artificial or not believe it or not

[Madhu]

* "Kerr-Mudd, John" <20230528213749.d835...@127.0.0.1> :
Wrote on Sun, 28 May 2023 21:37:49 +0100:

> On Sun, 28 May 2023 15:28:59 +0200
> Bertel Lund Hansen <gade...@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
>> occam wrote:
>> > 1- Painting ; 2-Sculpture; 3- Architecture; 4- Literature; 5- Music; 6-
>> > Cinema; 7-Theatre;

>> Computer programming was the next one I missed. And I mean the
>> program as such. The result will often be merely technical or fall in
>> one of the other categories.

>> I once read about one of the first programmers. Someone who worked
>> with him, thought that he ought to be remembered. He described his
>> achievements. I remember that he timed the rotation of a drum in
>> order to be able to trigger a certain operation at the optimal
>> point. I wish that I had kept a link, but I haven't.

> It's a famous piece of praise in computer circles; but it was of
> someone trying to amend the program; which he discovered relied upon
> timing.

You're probably thinking of the Story of Mel. I read it in the Jargon
File, but it's on wikipedia now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Story_of_Mel

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Ken Blake wrote:

> Recorded music is a capture of a performance of live music.

No, not even close. That was back in The Good Old Days (tm). Today the
drums may be played by a drum machine, or a bar is sampled and played
forever, or the whole drum performance is controlled by a computer
algorithm. If the guitarist is not the fastest in the world, you can
transpose the notes down one octave and then double the speed for the
final recording. The list goes on.

--
Bertel, Denmark

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

> It's a famous piece of praise in computer circles; but it was of someone
> trying to amend the program; which he discovered relied upon timing.

Not the text that I read. It really was someone who wanted us to
remember the programmer.

> I expect someone over in afc will remember it better than I do.

Madhu supplied the name and a link.

--
Bertel, Denmark

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Sam Plusnet wrote:

> Flower arranging and graffiti are both missing, though the latter is a
> part of 1 above.

Definitely, and the former is a form of sculpture.

> Culinary arts?

That is a candidate.

Once a man stood before the painting of Mona Lisa with tears running
down his cheeks. A bystander asked him why he was crying.

- I am a chef, and I think about the difference between what results
from painting and what results from what I do.

--
Bertel, Denmark

[occam]

On 28/05/2023 22:38, Bebercito wrote:
> Le dimanche 28 mai 2023 à 14:22:50 UTC+2, occam a écrit :
>> Reading around on the web, I saw cartoons strips (FR. "les bandes
>> dessinées" ) described as the 9th Art form.
>>
>> I did a search, and here are the seven 'primary' art forms, as accepted
>> at present:
>>
>> 1- Painting ; 2-Sculpture; 3- Architecture; 4- Literature; 5- Music; 6-
>> Cinema;
>
> Offhand, I'd say that sounds wrong, as a well-known antonomasia for
> the cinema is "the seventh art".

You are quite right. Different lists give different orders.

I too have heard of Cinema as the seventh art form. Also, instead of
'Theatre' (at number 6), some lists have this as 'Performing':
"Performing arts include a range of disciplines which are performed in
front of a live audience, including theatre, music, and dance. "

So, quite a bit of overlap in the Venn diagram of Arts.

[occam]

Bertel, I think what you are saying is that soon, music will be the
domain of AI.

'Performance' on the other hand (live theatre, live music, dance) will,
by definition, remain a human activity.

P.S. I have seen 'Performing Arts' replacing 'Theatre' as a category.
Defined as: "Performing arts include a range of disciplines which are

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

occam wrote:

>>> Recorded music is a capture of a performance of live music.
>>
>> No, not even close. That was back in The Good Old Days (tm). Today the
>> drums may be played by a drum machine, or a bar is sampled and played
>> forever, or the whole drum performance is controlled by a computer
>> algorithm. If the guitarist is not the fastest in the world, you can
>> transpose the notes down one octave and then double the speed for the
>> final recording. The list goes on.
>>
>
> Bertel, I think what you are saying is that soon, music will be the
> domain of AI.

No, that is not what I am saying. But AI will be used in music and
probably already has been. Some years ago I saw a tv report where a
'musician' who was unmusical, made music through computer algorithms.

In another report a guy was talking about Safri Duo. He explained that
young people of today do not appreciate the skills that the two guys
have. They are so used to superfast rhythms produced by computers that
they do not realise that Safri Duo plays everything by hand.

> 'Performance' on the other hand (live theatre, live music, dance) will,
> by definition, remain a human activity.

> P.S. I have seen 'Performing Arts' replacing 'Theatre' as a category.
> Defined as: "Performing arts include a range of disciplines which are
> performed in front of a live audience, including theatre, music, and
> dance.

I wouldn't say that it replaces "theatre". "Performance" is an umbrella
term.

--
Bertel, Denmark

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

Pshurely the Circus has been around a while?

(now appearing at the Hippodrome)

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

On Mon, 29 May 2023 07:12:27 +0200
occam <oc...@nowhere.nix> wrote:

> On 29/05/2023 05:44, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
> >  Ken Blake wrote:
> >
> >> Recorded music is a capture of a performance of live music.
> >
> > No, not even close. That was back in The Good Old Days (tm). Today the
> > drums may be played by a drum machine, or a bar is sampled and played
> > forever, or the whole drum performance is controlled by a computer
> > algorithm. If the guitarist is not the fastest in the world, you can
> > transpose the notes down one octave and then double the speed for the
> > final recording. The list goes on.
> >
>
> Bertel, I think what you are saying is that soon, music will be the
> domain of AI.
>
> 'Performance' on the other hand (live theatre, live music, dance) will,
> by definition, remain a human activity.

I, for one, welcome our new dancing robot overlords.

>
> P.S. I have seen 'Performing Arts' replacing 'Theatre' as a category.
> Defined as: "Performing arts include a range of disciplines which are
> performed in front of a live audience, including theatre, music, and
> dance.

[Snidely]

Peter T. Daniels noted that:

Nine be the number to amass amusement for Amos.

/dps "needs work to be comix streep"

--
"I'm glad unicorns don't ever need upgrades."
"We are as up as it is possible to get graded!"
_Phoebe and Her Unicorn_, 2016.05.15

[bruce bowser]

On Sunday, May 28, 2023 at 8:22:50 AM UTC-4, occam wrote:
> Reading around on the web, I saw cartoons strips (FR. "les bandes
> dessinées" ) described as the 9th Art form.
>
> I did a search, and here are the seven 'primary' art forms, as accepted
> at present:
>
> 1- Painting ; 2-Sculpture; 3- Architecture; 4- Literature; 5- Music; 6-
> Cinema; 7-Theatre;
>
> and 9- Les bandes dessinées (cartoon strips), if we are to believe the
> French and the Belgians. (There is even a Museum of cartoon strips in
> Brussels https://www.comicscenter.net/en/home .)

Would Sudoku or KenKen puzzles in the New York Times be considered art?

[Ken Blake]

Those are things that you consider to be music, but I don't.

[Bebercito]

Le lundi 29 mai 2023 à 07:05:45 UTC+2, occam a écrit :
> On 28/05/2023 22:38, Bebercito wrote:
> > Le dimanche 28 mai 2023 à 14:22:50 UTC+2, occam a écrit :
> >> Reading around on the web, I saw cartoons strips (FR. "les bandes
> >> dessinées" ) described as the 9th Art form.
> >>
> >> I did a search, and here are the seven 'primary' art forms, as accepted
> >> at present:
> >>
> >> 1- Painting ; 2-Sculpture; 3- Architecture; 4- Literature; 5- Music; 6-
> >> Cinema;
> >
> > Offhand, I'd say that sounds wrong, as a well-known antonomasia for
> > the cinema is "the seventh art".
> You are quite right. Different lists give different orders.
>
> I too have heard of Cinema as the seventh art form. Also, instead of
> 'Theatre' (at number 6), some lists have this as 'Performing':
> "Performing arts include a range of disciplines which are performed in
> front of a live audience, including theatre, music, and dance. "
>
> So, quite a bit of overlap in the Venn diagram of Arts.

Indeed, but IMHO, cinema as an art has more to do specifically with the
work of directors than of actors and I wouldn't classify it altogether as
"performing". An applicable umbrella term could arguably be "visual art".

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Ken Blake wrote:

> Those are things that you consider to be music, but I don't.

Music is organised sound.

--
Bertel, Denmark

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Sunday, May 28, 2023 at 5:43:28 PM UTC-4, Ken Blake wrote:

> I disagree. Theater and films are very distinct forms of art..
>
> Theater is what you see when it's performed. Film is a construction
> from what was performed. There's cutting, zooming, shots from
> different angles, closeups, distant shots, panning, moving camera,
> montage (think of the famous Odessa Steps scene in Potemkin), wipes.
> indoor scenes and outdoor scenes, direct cuts from one scene to
> another. and many other film techniques that don't come to mind
> quickly. None of those things can be done in theater.

Maybe not in the theaters available to Original Blake in Phoenix, but
I doubt that.

> There was once at least one film made (I can't remember its name) that
> was a direct capture of a theater performance, without any of the
> techniques I mentioned above. Yes, that would essentially not be a
> different art form, but it's completely atypical of film.

The Library and Museum of the Performing Arts (an arm of the New
York Public Library) at Lincoln Center has a video recording of every
Broadway production since who-knows-when, and anyone can request
a viewing of any of them. (They do not circulate, of course.) Hopefully
the archive is also maintained for Off-Broadway productions as well.

> And Hitchcock's film "Rope" was one long shot was one long shot
> without many of the techniques, but again completely atypical.

No, it is a series of one-reel takes that begin and end with static
images that are spliced together to give the illusion of a continuous
take. A "reel" was usually 10 minutes, so that is the longest the actors
had to maintain their performances at a time.

*Birdman*, however, was recorded digitally, and the viewer has the
impression that there were no cuts for at least the first hour.

The technique was pioneered by Robert Altman in movies like *Nashville*,'
with incredibly complex choreography and a moving camera that picked
up one actor after another as they passed through the scene. (Again, he
was limited by the amount of film that could be exposed in a single take.)

> Recorded music is a capture of a performance of live music. Except for
> the visual aspects of live music, they are essentially the same, as
> far as I'm concerned.

What utter nonsense!

[Peter T. Daniels]

There's no way of knowing what you "consider to be music," but if you
think a symphony or opera or solo piano recording, or a Sinatra or
Crosby song, isn't done with just as many retakes and editing, then
your ignorance knows no bounds.

Jazz recordings may be different, since by definition there cannot be
two near-identical segments such that one could be edited into the other.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Monday, May 29, 2023 at 11:27:26 AM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
> Le lundi 29 mai 2023 à 07:05:45 UTC+2, occam a écrit :

> > I too have heard of Cinema as the seventh art form. Also, instead of
> > 'Theatre' (at number 6), some lists have this as 'Performing':
> > "Performing arts include a range of disciplines which are performed in
> > front of a live audience, including theatre, music, and dance. "
> > So, quite a bit of overlap in the Venn diagram of Arts.
>
> Indeed, but IMHO, cinema as an art has more to do specifically with the
> work of directors than of actors and I wouldn't classify it altogether as
> "performing". An applicable umbrella term could arguably be "visual art".

How French. What director created the Gary Cooper or Jimmy Stewart
or Henry Fonda or Bette Davis or Joan Crawford or Audrey Hepburn or,
heaven help us, the John Wayne persona? Auteurism theory's heyday
is long past.

[occam]

On 29/05/2023 17:34, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>  Ken Blake wrote:
>
>> Those are things that you consider to be music, but I don't.
>
> Music is organised sound.
>

There is nothing organised about Jazz.

[Bebercito]

Actors are by definition what directors make them, and their persona is
innate, i.e. indissociable from what they actually are - so not much art
involved there, IMO.

> Auteurism theory's heyday is long past.

Is it? And what actors created French impressionism, Soviet montage or
Italian neo-realism, to name but a few movements that marked the history
of cinema considerably more than any actors did? Also, didn't it occur to
you that certains films (e.g. documentaries) don't involve actors at all and
still pertain to "cinema"?

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

occam wrote:

>> Music is organised sound.
>>
>
> There is nothing organised about Jazz.

There very often is in the normal sense. But the musicians organise the
sounds they make, whether they are specified in advance or improvised.

With the oppinion that you stated in the previous message, you won't
know if something you hear, is music or not. You'd have to investigate
the process that produced it. That seems impractical - or indeed untenable.

--
Bertel, Denmark

[Jerry Friedman]

On Sunday, May 28, 2023 at 1:40:07 PM UTC-6, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> On 28-May-23 13:22, occam wrote:

> > Reading around on the web, I saw cartoons strips (FR. "les bandes
> > dessinées" ) described as the 9th Art form.
> >
> > I did a search, and here are the seven 'primary' art forms, as accepted
> > at present:
> >
> > 1- Painting ; 2-Sculpture; 3- Architecture; 4- Literature; 5- Music; 6-

> > Cinema; 7-Theatre;

> >
> > and 9- Les bandes dessinées (cartoon strips), if we are to believe the
> > French and the Belgians. (There is even a Museum of cartoon strips in
> > Brussels https://www.comicscenter.net/en/home .)
> >
> > I was expecting to see photography in there somewhere, but alas.
> >
> > Anyone know what number 8 is?

> Flower arranging and graffiti are both missing, though the latter is a
> part of 1 above.
>
> Culinary arts?

Fashion design?

--
Jerry Friedman

[Lionel Edwards]

Martial arts.

> --
> Jerry Friedman

[Ken Blake]

On Mon, 29 May 2023 17:34:20 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen
<gade...@lundhansen.dk> wrote:

> Ken Blake wrote:
>
>> Those are things that you consider to be music, but I don't.
>
>Music is organised sound.

Music is sound that is organized artfully.

Something like boom-boom-boom... with a boom every second is organized
sound. If you think that's music, that's fine. I don't..

[Ken Blake]

On Mon, 29 May 2023 08:27:23 -0700 (PDT), Bebercito
<bebe...@aol.com> wrote:

>Le lundi 29 mai 2023 à 07:05:45 UTC+2, occam a écrit :
>> On 28/05/2023 22:38, Bebercito wrote:
>> > Le dimanche 28 mai 2023 à 14:22:50 UTC+2, occam a écrit :
>> >> Reading around on the web, I saw cartoons strips (FR. "les bandes
>> >> dessinées" ) described as the 9th Art form.
>> >>
>> >> I did a search, and here are the seven 'primary' art forms, as accepted
>> >> at present:
>> >>
>> >> 1- Painting ; 2-Sculpture; 3- Architecture; 4- Literature; 5- Music; 6-
>> >> Cinema;
>> >
>> > Offhand, I'd say that sounds wrong, as a well-known antonomasia for
>> > the cinema is "the seventh art".
>> You are quite right. Different lists give different orders.
>>
>> I too have heard of Cinema as the seventh art form. Also, instead of
>> 'Theatre' (at number 6), some lists have this as 'Performing':
>> "Performing arts include a range of disciplines which are performed in
>> front of a live audience, including theatre, music, and dance. "
>>
>> So, quite a bit of overlap in the Venn diagram of Arts.
>
>Indeed, but IMHO, cinema as an art has more to do specifically with the
>work of directors than of actors

Yes.

> and I wouldn't classify it altogether as
>"performing".

I agree.

>An applicable umbrella term could arguably be "visual art".

But to me that term would include painting, drawing, sculpture,
architecture, etc. and those are even farther from theater or film. So
as far as I'm concerned, that's much too broad a term to be useful.

[Peter T. Daniels]

What a bizarre assertion.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Monday, May 29, 2023 at 12:27:04 PM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
> Le lundi 29 mai 2023 à 17:49:57 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> > On Monday, May 29, 2023 at 11:27:26 AM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
> > > Le lundi 29 mai 2023 à 07:05:45 UTC+2, occam a écrit :

> > > > I too have heard of Cinema as the seventh art form. Also, instead of
> > > > 'Theatre' (at number 6), some lists have this as 'Performing':
> > > > "Performing arts include a range of disciplines which are performed in
> > > > front of a live audience, including theatre, music, and dance. "
> > > > So, quite a bit of overlap in the Venn diagram of Arts.
> > > Indeed, but IMHO, cinema as an art has more to do specifically with the
> > > work of directors than of actors and I wouldn't classify it altogether as
> > > "performing". An applicable umbrella term could arguably be "visual art".
> > How French. What director created the Gary Cooper or Jimmy Stewart
> > or Henry Fonda or Bette Davis or Joan Crawford or Audrey Hepburn or,
> > heaven help us, the John Wayne persona?
>
> Actors are by definition what directors make them, and their persona is
> innate, i.e. indissociable from what they actually are - so not much art
> involved there, IMO.

One must wonder whether you've seen any movies from the 1930s-1950s.
If there was any commonality among the stars' roles, it was due to the
studio system, not to whichever director happened to be randomly attached
to which property. (Victor Fleming seems to be the director-of-record of
both *Gone with the Wind* and *The Wizard of Oz*, both released in 1939,
and apparently had little to do with shooting either of them. Yet they are
considered two of the pinnacles of Golden Age movie-making.

> > Auteurism theory's heyday is long past.
>
> Is it?

Enough so that you don't even try to defend it.

> And what actors created French impressionism,

Manet, Cezanne, Gauguin are, I think, the usual suspects.

> Soviet montage or
> Italian neo-realism, to name but a few movements that marked the history
> of cinema

Those are "schools," not achievements by a single director imposing his
personality on the material.

Where would *Nosferatu* or *M* be without their stars? And Fritz Lang
went on to a stellar Hollywood career, fitting right into MGM.

> considerably more than any actors did? Also, didn't it occur to
> you that certains films (e.g. documentaries) don't involve actors at all and
> still pertain to "cinema"?

Who above was talking about non-fiction films? You're really not good at
your attempted imitations of TC.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Ken Blake wrote:

>> Music is organised sound.
>
>
> Music is sound that is organized artfully.
>
> Something like boom-boom-boom... with a boom every second is organized
> sound. If you think that's music, that's fine. I don't..

I do not know your music taste, but I would be surprised if there isn't
one or more pieces of music which you have heard, where one drum sounds
just like that.

I didn't say that I enjoy all organised sounds. I just don't think that
you can find a useful definition of music other than that. Who decides
what "artfully" means?

--
Bertel, Denmark

[Sam Plusnet]

On 29-May-23 8:30, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> On Mon, 29 May 2023 07:12:27 +0200
> occam <oc...@nowhere.nix> wrote:

>> 'Performance' on the other hand (live theatre, live music, dance) will,
>> by definition, remain a human activity.
>
> I, for one, welcome our new dancing robot overlords.

Indeed. We shall dance attendance upon them.


--
Sam Plusnet

[Sam Plusnet]

On 29-May-23 16:34, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>  Ken Blake wrote:
>
>> Those are things that you consider to be music, but I don't.
>
> Music is organised sound.

John Cage 4'33".



--
Sam Plusnet

[Ken Blake]

On Mon, 29 May 2023 21:22:49 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen
<gade...@lundhansen.dk> wrote:

> Ken Blake wrote:
>
>>> Music is organised sound.
>>
>>
>> Music is sound that is organized artfully.
>>
>> Something like boom-boom-boom... with a boom every second is organized
>> sound. If you think that's music, that's fine. I don't..
>
>I do not know your music taste, but I would be surprised if there isn't
>one or more pieces of music which you have heard, where one drum sounds
>just like that.

No, my point had nothing to do with my musical taste. My point wasn't
that one drum in a band or orchestra playing might sound like that.
My point was that if *all* the sound that was produced was something
like boom-boom-boom... (whether from a drum, gun, cannon, the wind
blowing something against a door, or something else) with a boom every
second, it would clearly be organized sound, but not music.

>I didn't say that I enjoy all organised sounds.

I didn't suggest that you did. I also know nothing about your musical
tastes. I was simply pointing that your definition of music as
"organized sound" isn't correct. Yes, all music is organized sound,
but not all organized sound is music.

>I just don't think that
>you can find a useful definition of music other than that. Who decides
>what "artfully" means?

There is no universally agreed-upon definition.Each of us decides what
it is to us. What I call "artfully" probably isn't what you would call
"artfully," and vice-versa. That's fine; it simply means we have
different tastes in music.

However there *are* organized sounds that almost any two people would
agree are not artful, and therefore not music Boom-boom-boom was an
example of that, and that's why I disagreed with your definition of
"music" as simply "organized sound."

Here's another example of organized sound (perhaps a better example)
that's not music--drip-drip, drip..., from a leaky faucet.

[Ken Blake]

Organized absence of sound. An example of something that I don't
consider to be music.

[Bebercito]

? There still had to be someone to direct them.

> Yet they are
> considered two of the pinnacles of Golden Age movie-making.
> > > Auteurism theory's heyday is long past.
> >
> > Is it?
> Enough so that you don't even try to defend it.
> > And what actors created French impressionism,
> Manet, Cezanne, Gauguin are, I think, the usual suspects.

These are creators of impressionnism in painting. How are they *actors*
who introduced impressionnism into cinema?

> > Soviet montage or
> > Italian neo-realism, to name but a few movements that marked the history
> > of cinema
> Those are "schools," not achievements by a single director imposing his
> personality on the material.

They are *movements* ("schools" are actually slightly different, see e.g.
https://www.thoughtco.com/difference-between-art-styles-schools-and-movements-2573812#:~:text=began%20to%20dissolve.-,Movement,in%20communication%20with%20each%20other.),
which were based on new cinema concepts, both devised and
implemented by *directors*.

>
> Where would *Nosferatu* or *M* be without their stars?

Bad catch: Nosferatu is a silent film (no lines for actors to learn and
declaim), plus Max Schreck was so made up any other actor could
have played the part without the audience even noticing a difference.

> And Fritz Lang
> went on to a stellar Hollywood career, fitting right into MGM.

Trace that to is genius, not to actors.

> > considerably more than any actors did? Also, didn't it occur to
> > you that certains films (e.g. documentaries) don't involve actors at all and
> > still pertain to "cinema"?
> Who above was talking about non-fiction films? You're really not good at
> your attempted imitations of TC.

The subject was "cinema" at large, not fiction or non-fiction. Read the
thread.

[Peter T. Daniels]

You are asked to pay attention to the ambient sound during the
performance.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Never heard of it. Did you mean expressionism?

> > > Soviet montage or
> > > Italian neo-realism, to name but a few movements that marked the history
> > > of cinema
> > Those are "schools," not achievements by a single director imposing his
> > personality on the material.
>
> They are *movements* ("schools" are actually slightly different, see e.g.
> https://www.thoughtco.com/difference-between-art-styles-schools-and-movements-2573812#:~:text=began%20to%20dissolve.-,Movement,in%20communication%20with%20each%20other.),

Good grief.

> which were based on new cinema concepts, both devised and
> implemented by *directors*.

That does not refute what I said.

And, didn't the cinematographers and scenic designers, and even
the scenarists, have something to do with ita?

> > Where would *Nosferatu* or *M* be without their stars?
>
> Bad catch: Nosferatu is a silent film (no lines for actors to learn and
> declaim), plus Max Schreck was so made up any other actor could
> have played the part without the audience even noticing a difference.

Wow. Talk about philistinism.

> > And Fritz Lang
> > went on to a stellar Hollywood career, fitting right into MGM.
>
> Trace that to is genius, not to actors.

No, to Louis B. Mayer taking up projects that were suited to his
employees.

> > > considerably more than any actors did? Also, didn't it occur to
> > > you that certains films (e.g. documentaries) don't involve actors at all and
> > > still pertain to "cinema"?
> > Who above was talking about non-fiction films? You're really not good at
> > your attempted imitations of TC.
>
> The subject was "cinema" at large, not fiction or non-fiction. Read the
> thread.

No, it isn't. It is whether cinema counts as an art form of the same
stature as the traditionally listed ones.

[bruce bowser]

On Monday, May 29, 2023 at 10:40:10 AM UTC-4, Ken Blake wrote:

In a world with many cultures, generations and racial backgrounds, its easy to see how one might reject certain audio as music.

[Peter Moylan]

I was once driving in my car, and one of those boom-boom-boom things
came up on the radio. I thought it was horrible. Then my children
started singing along with it, and it turned out to be a nice tune.

Their ears were young enough to hear the music hidden by the percussion.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Ken Blake wrote:

> However there *are* organized sounds that almost any two people would
> agree are not artful, and therefore not music Boom-boom-boom was an
> example of that, and that's why I disagreed with your definition of
> "music" as simply "organized sound."

Here is an example of what you are talking about:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMu6cAFJWP8

--
Bertel, Denmark

[Bebercito]

No.

> > > > Soviet montage or
> > > > Italian neo-realism, to name but a few movements that marked the history
> > > > of cinema
> > > Those are "schools," not achievements by a single director imposing his
> > > personality on the material.
> >
> > They are *movements* ("schools" are actually slightly different, see e.g.
> > https://www.thoughtco.com/difference-between-art-styles-schools-and-movements-2573812#:~:text=began%20to%20dissolve.-,Movement,in%20communication%20with%20each%20other.),
> Good grief.
> > which were based on new cinema concepts, both devised and
> > implemented by *directors*.
> That does not refute what I said.

Of course it does - the movement is consubstantial with the film
itself (by which it's both imparted and embodied) and is therefore
indeed reflected in "achievements by a single director imposing his
personality on the material". "School" just refers to other directors
following in his/her footsteps.

>
> And, didn't the cinematographers and scenic designers, and even
> the scenarists, have something to do with ita?
> > > Where would *Nosferatu* or *M* be without their stars?
> >
> > Bad catch: Nosferatu is a silent film (no lines for actors to learn and
> > declaim), plus Max Schreck was so made up any other actor could
> > have played the part without the audience even noticing a difference.
> Wow. Talk about philistinism.
> > > And Fritz Lang
> > > went on to a stellar Hollywood career, fitting right into MGM.

Speaking about philistinism...

> >
> > Trace that to is genius, not to actors.
> No, to Louis B. Mayer taking up projects that were suited to his
> employees.

How come then he was just as successful, if not more, in Europe i.e.
before Hollywood?

> > > > considerably more than any actors did? Also, didn't it occur to
> > > > you that certains films (e.g. documentaries) don't involve actors at all and
> > > > still pertain to "cinema"?
> > > Who above was talking about non-fiction films? You're really not good at
> > > your attempted imitations of TC.
> >
> > The subject was "cinema" at large, not fiction or non-fiction. Read the
> > thread.
> No, it isn't. It is whether cinema

Yes, "cinema", without a fiction/non-fiction distinction. QED.

[occam]

Joshua 6:10

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

Forfar 5, East Fife 4. (or wassit the other way round?)

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Turns out he wasn't talking about rhythm-heavy music. but abot repetitive
sounds from nature or machines.

I've observed that among the world's musics, the one that doesn't
have a perpetual rhythm instrument going at all times (an explicit
beat) is Western classical,. from approximately Beethoven on.

[Ken Blake]

You are welcome to call that music if you want to, but I won't.

[bruce bowser]

Waltzes of the time like with Johann Strauss II have fairly significant rhythm too, as does this one which was written by Beethoven (E flat major, WoO 84) around 1825.
-- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhAZWz6RBD8

[Peter T. Daniels]

The most basic logic error of all. If A tnen B does NOT imply if B then A.

[bozo de niro]

>
> Something like boom-boom-boom... with a boom every second is organized
> sound. If you think that's music, that's fine. I don't..

You mean like this boom-boom-boom? — https://youtu.be/4m48GqaOz90

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Ken Blake wrote:

>> Here is an example of what you are talking about:
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMu6cAFJWP8
>
>
> You are welcome to call that music if you want to, but I won't.

Is this music?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nA0bTp677gk

--
Bertel, Denmark

[Ken Blake]

Yes.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

occam wrote:

> Bertel, I think what you are saying is that soon, music will be the
> domain of AI.

I'm tempted to explain some more about music production and performance.

There is a program called "Autotune" and a function in many keyboards
and electronic devices called "Vocoder" that does almost the same.

I have a $700 synthesizer with Vocoder as an option. If I plug in a
microphone and activate the function, then I can speak the words of a
song, but the key that I press, will play my voice with the tune
corresponding to the key. This means that anyone with or without musical
abilities can 'sing' a song with perfect pitch. "Autotune" works
directly with the microphone sound - no keyboard involved.

About performances:
Many of them are not really live. The sound engineer will play the dvd
given to him by the band, and the musicians will mime in front of the
audience. This has been the case for many years.

Some of you may remember Milli Vanilli - two guys who couldn't sing, but
they became famous for their performance (sound recorded by hired
voices). The sound was supplied by a tape recorder - unbeknownst to the
audience. Their career stopped the day the tape recorder failed and
played slower and slower. Todays equipment works flawlessly.

A band called Status Quo once performed 'live' on tv. They all had
turned their guitar around with the strings against their stomach, and
then they hammered happily away on the backside of the instrument. That
was at least sort of honest.

> 'Performance' on the other hand (live theatre, live music, dance) will,
> by definition, remain a human activity.

Well, there is human activity, but the sound may be electronically supplied.

I am not saying that all bands and musicians do this. There are
countless honest performances. But I can tell you that the council of
Odense when celbrating the city's jubilee had hired Tina Turner at the
price of 1 million dollars. She didn't sing a single tone. She had given
the sound engineer a dvd for him to play.

--
Bertel, Denmark

[Sam Plusnet]

If it's drumming you want, I prefer this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3ZQZEpihxk

--
Sam Plusnet

[Jerry Friedman]

On Monday, May 29, 2023 at 9:34:24 AM UTC-6, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
> Ken Blake wrote:
>

> > Those are things that you consider to be music, but I don't.

> Music is organised sound.

We need a better definition than that, since speech is organized sound.

--
Jerry Friedman

[TonyCooper]

On Tue, 30 May 2023 14:46:40 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
<jerry.fr...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, May 29, 2023 at 9:34:24?AM UTC-6, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>> Ken Blake wrote:
>>
>> > Those are things that you consider to be music, but I don't.
>
>> Music is organised sound.
>
>We need a better definition than that, since speech is organized sound.

But when I suggested to my wife that we go out for dinner she said
"That's music to my ears!".

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando,Florida

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Sam Plusnet wrote:

> If it's drumming you want, I prefer this:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3ZQZEpihxk

Quit nice. And that's a big drum.


--
Bertel, Denmark

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Maybe we do, but I don't think that you can completely separate speach
from music. Rap is an example.

--
Bertel, Denmark

[Rich Ulrich]

On Wed, 31 May 2023 06:01:21 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen
<gade...@lundhansen.dk> wrote:

> Jerry Friedman wrote:
>

>> On Monday, May 29, 2023 at 9:34:24?AM UTC-6, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>>> Ken Blake wrote:
>>>
>>>> Those are things that you consider to be music, but I don't.
>>
>>> Music is organised sound.
>>
>> We need a better definition than that, since speech is organized sound.
>
>Maybe we do, but I don't think that you can completely separate speach
>from music. Rap is an example.

Put in something about entrainment of brain waves
with organzation over'longer durations than for speech
in conversation.

Good sermons should qualify under that -- is that okay?
The metaphor has been used, 'playing the audience'.

--
Rich Ulrich

[occam]

On 30/05/2023 03:38, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 30/05/23 04:14, Ken Blake wrote:
>> On Mon, 29 May 2023 17:34:20 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen
>> <gade...@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
>>
>>> Ken Blake wrote:
>>>
>>>> Those are things that you consider to be music, but I don't.
>>>
>>> Music is organised sound.
>>
>>
>> Music is sound that is organized artfully.
>>
>> Something like boom-boom-boom... with a boom every second is
>> organized sound. If you think that's music, that's fine. I don't..
>
> I was once driving in my car, and one of those boom-boom-boom things
> came up on the radio. I thought it was horrible. Then my children
> started singing along with it, and it turned out to be a nice tune.

Careful Peter. If your insurance company finds out you play that sort
of music in your car, they'll put up your premium.

[Snidely]

Sam Plusnet suggested that ...

Not to telegraph this, but
<URL:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFYDsUKH1b4>
<URL:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9nmSJ3gesE>
<URL:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqJdzYY_Fas>
<URL:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULaTCPVeUmo>
<URL:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ns1gYZJ6eA>
<URL:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbUuB1aN2DA>
<URL:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gK2-1enSST4>

Boom!

/dps "be careful what you open, Sesame"

--
"Maintaining a really good conspiracy requires far more intelligent
application, by a large number of people, than the world can readily
supply."

Sam Plusnet

[Peter Moylan]

I was playing it only because my daughter, sitting in the front
passenger seat, had changed the station.

But I think I was safe. As far as I can tell, the insurance companies
here raise the premium only for red cars, which have the worst accident
record.

>> Their ears were young enough to hear the music hidden by the percussion.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2023-05-31 11:31:27 +0000, Peter Moylan said:

> On 31/05/23 20:29, occam wrote:
>> On 30/05/2023 03:38, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>> On 30/05/23 04:14, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 29 May 2023 17:34:20 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen
>>>> <gade...@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Ken Blake wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Those are things that you consider to be music, but I don't.
>>>>>
>>>>> Music is organised sound.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Music is sound that is organized artfully.
>>>>
>>>> Something like boom-boom-boom... with a boom every second is
>>>> organized sound. If you think that's music, that's fine. I don't..
>>>
>>> I was once driving in my car, and one of those boom-boom-boom things
>>> came up on the radio. I thought it was horrible. Then my children
>>> started singing along with it, and it turned out to be a nice tune.
>>
>> Careful Peter. If your insurance company finds out you play that sort
>> of music in your car, they'll put up your premium.
>
> I was playing it only because my daughter, sitting in the front
> passenger seat, had changed the station.
>
> But I think I was safe. As far as I can tell, the insurance companies
> here raise the premium only for red cars, which have the worst accident
> record.

Here in the south of France red cars are rare (quite different from
England), but we were told when we first arrived here to watch out for
red cars from Nice, as they were the worst.

>
>>> Their ears were young enough to hear the music hidden by the percussion.


--

Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 36 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

[occam]

[Heard in a stand-up comedy routine by an ex-UK-policeman]

His question to his audience - what colour car gets stopped most often
by the traffic police? Answer: Pink cars.

The Reason? Apparently they play a game called "traffic snooker". To see
who can get the most points in a day, by stopping/booking the right
colour car (as per a snooker game) in sequence: yellow, green, brown,
blue, pink, black. As pink coloured cars are rare, their owners get
stopped with uncommon regularity.

https://www.weirduniverse.net/blog/comments/motorway_snooker

[TonyCooper]

In some suburbs in the US stopping a pink car might not be that much
of a challenge. The cosmetics firm, Mary Kay, gives pink cars to high
producers in the sales of Mary Kay cosmetics. Originally, they were
pink Cadillacs, but they now award other brands of cars in pink.

Mary Kay's products are available only from "Independant Beauty
Consultants" online or in person. There are about 250,000 of them in
the US.

[Ken Blake]

On Wed, 31 May 2023 06:01:21 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen
<gade...@lundhansen.dk> wrote:

> Jerry Friedman wrote:
>

>> On Monday, May 29, 2023 at 9:34:24?AM UTC-6, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>>> Ken Blake wrote:
>>>
>>>> Those are things that you consider to be music, but I don't.
>>
>>> Music is organised sound.
>>
>> We need a better definition than that, since speech is organized sound.
>
>Maybe we do, but I don't think that you can completely separate speach
>from music. Rap is an example.

You can call rap music, if you want to. I don't.

[phil]

On 31/05/2023 15:09, occam wrote:

>
> [Heard in a stand-up comedy routine by an ex-UK-policeman]
>
> His question to his audience - what colour car gets stopped most often
> by the traffic police? Answer: Pink cars.
>
> The Reason? Apparently they play a game called "traffic snooker". To see
> who can get the most points in a day, by stopping/booking the right
> colour car (as per a snooker game) in sequence: yellow, green, brown,
> blue, pink, black. As pink coloured cars are rare, their owners get
> stopped with uncommon regularity.
>
> https://www.weirduniverse.net/blog/comments/motorway_snooker

Best to drive a white car, then? Stop a white -- foul, four away.

[Ken Blake]

I used to sometimes have breakfast in a restaurant (now closed) where
a frequent visitor was a woman who came in a pink car. She also wore
pink clothes, carried a pink handbag, and used a pink cane. To her,
pink was a symbol of her being a breast cancer survivor.

[occam]

We also had a pink lady in the UK, the author (Dame) Barbara Cartland.
All the pink stuff you mention above, plus a pink poodle or two in the
deal. Never read any of her romantic novels, but quite a lot of people
did, apparently.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

In the 1960s the Kaiser Steel Company used pink lorries (trucks). I
don't know if they still do.

[TonyCooper]

First, a translation. In the US a "dumpster" is a large container in
which trash and other debris is placed. Many apartment and condo
complexes have them onsite in various locations within the complex so
residents can place their trash (usually in plastic bags) in them for
disposal. Businesses and stores usually have one behind the building.

The are also rented to construction firms for temporary use at a
building site.

I think the UK/AUS term is "skip".

In Orlando there's a woman-owned firm that rents dumpsters to
construction companies. The name of the company is "She Can" and the
dumpsters are all painted pink.

[lar3ryca]

I call 'rap music' music, but someone always spoils it by talking over
top of it.

--
Dogs actually won the space race.

[Jerry Friedman]

Think of the talking as percussion.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Jerry Friedman]

I agree, but there's speech that no one considers music.

--
Jerry Friedman

[charles]

In article <r1ue7i5rmoqavib0g...@4ax.com>,

TonyCooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:

> First, a translation. In the US a "dumpster" is a large container in
> which trash and other debris is placed. Many apartment and condo
> complexes have them onsite in various locations within the complex so
> residents can place their trash (usually in plastic bags) in them for
> disposal. Businesses and stores usually have one behind the building.

> The are also rented to construction firms for temporary use at a
> building site.

> I think the UK term is "skip".

Yes, it is.

> In Orlando there's a woman-owned firm that rents dumpsters to
> construction companies. The name of the company is "She Can" and the
> dumpsters are all painted pink.

--

from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2023-05-31 18:15:02 +0000, charles said:

> In article <r1ue7i5rmoqavib0g...@4ax.com>,
> TonyCooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> First, a translation. In the US a "dumpster" is a large container in
>> which trash and other debris is placed. Many apartment and condo
>> complexes have them onsite in various locations within the complex so
>> residents can place their trash (usually in plastic bags) in them for
>> disposal. Businesses and stores usually have one behind the building.
>
>> The are also rented to construction firms for temporary use at a
>> building site.
>
>> I think the UK term is "skip".
>
> Yes, it is.
>
>> In Orlando there's a woman-owned firm that rents dumpsters to
>> construction companies. The name of the company is "She Can" and the
>> dumpsters are all painted pink.

Is Ron DeSantis OK with that?

[TonyCooper]

On Wed, 31 May 23 18:15:02 UTC, charles <cha...@candehope.me.uk>
wrote:

>In article <r1ue7i5rmoqavib0g...@4ax.com>,
> TonyCooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> First, a translation. In the US a "dumpster" is a large container in
>> which trash and other debris is placed. Many apartment and condo
>> complexes have them onsite in various locations within the complex so
>> residents can place their trash (usually in plastic bags) in them for
>> disposal. Businesses and stores usually have one behind the building.
>
>> The are also rented to construction firms for temporary use at a
>> building site.
>
>> I think the UK term is "skip".
>
>Yes, it is.
>
>> In Orlando there's a woman-owned firm that rents dumpsters to
>> construction companies. The name of the company is "She Can" and the
>> dumpsters are all painted pink.

The Dempster Brothers, Inc of Knoxville TN. became very successful in
in marketing their product: Dempster Dumpmaster. The product became
known as the "Dempster Dumpster" and then just "dumpster". The word
"dumpster" is now the generic term for any manufacturer's similar
product.

So how did they become known as "skips" in the UK?

[Paul Wolff]

On Wed, 31 May 2023, at 14:52:59, TonyCooper posted:

>On Wed, 31 May 23 18:15:02 UTC, charles <cha...@candehope.me.uk>

>> TonyCooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> First, a translation. In the US a "dumpster" is a large container in
>>> which trash and other debris is placed. Many apartment and condo
>>> complexes have them onsite in various locations within the complex so
>>> residents can place their trash (usually in plastic bags) in them for
>>> disposal. Businesses and stores usually have one behind the building.
>>
>>> The are also rented to construction firms for temporary use at a
>>> building site.
>>
>>> I think the UK term is "skip".
>>
>>Yes, it is.
>>
>>> In Orlando there's a woman-owned firm that rents dumpsters to
>>> construction companies. The name of the company is "She Can" and the
>>> dumpsters are all painted pink.
>
>The Dempster Brothers, Inc of Knoxville TN. became very successful in
>in marketing their product: Dempster Dumpmaster. The product became
>known as the "Dempster Dumpster" and then just "dumpster". The word
>"dumpster" is now the generic term for any manufacturer's similar
>product.
>
>So how did they become known as "skips" in the UK?
>

"That's all right Squire, we'll skip the paperwork."

Well, obviously, leg-pulling aside, it's from 'skep' which in turn comes
from Late Old English 'sceppe', thence from Old Norse skeppa basket,
bushel. Related to Old Saxon scepil, Old High German sceffil (German
Scheffel).

Skep in English means a basket, hamper, tub, etc., of locally varying
size, form, and use. A skip is a skep of the more muscular form.

I am indebted to those kindly folk at the Oxford dictionaries for this
information.
--
Paul W

[charles]

In article <4c5f7ihb5ph36pqoc...@4ax.com>,

According to my dictionary it comes from Old Norse "Skep" meaning a basket,
then went onto be a container used in mines,

[Ken Blake]

Thanks for that info. I've long known the word "dumpster" but I never
knew that's what it came from.

[Ken Blake]

On Wed, 31 May 2023 10:39:03 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
<jerry.fr...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 10:01:27?PM UTC-6, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>> Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>

>> > On Monday, May 29, 2023 at 9:34:24?AM UTC-6, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>> >> Ken Blake wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Those are things that you consider to be music, but I don't.
>> >
>> >> Music is organised sound.
>> >
>> > We need a better definition than that, since speech is organized sound.
>> Maybe we do, but I don't think that you can completely separate speach
>> from music. Rap is an example.
>
>I agree, but there's speech that no one considers music.

All the speech uttered by the Donald?

[Sam Plusnet]

There were a very large number to choose from, if you were so inclined.

Or possibly a single novel, published over and over, with minor
variations incorporated.

--
Sam Plusnet

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Wednesday, May 31, 2023 at 4:01:09 PM UTC-4, Paul Wolff wrote:
> On Wed, 31 May 2023, at 14:52:59, TonyCooper posted:
> >On Wed, 31 May 23 18:15:02 UTC, charles <cha...@candehope.me.uk>
> >> TonyCooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> First, a translation. In the US a "dumpster" is a large container in
> >>> which trash and other debris is placed. Many apartment and condo
> >>> complexes have them onsite in various locations within the complex so
> >>> residents can place their trash (usually in plastic bags) in them for
> >>> disposal. Businesses and stores usually have one behind the building.
> >>
> >>> The are also rented to construction firms for temporary use at a
> >>> building site.
> >>
> >>> I think the UK term is "skip".
> >>
> >>Yes, it is.
> >>
> >>> In Orlando there's a woman-owned firm that rents dumpsters to
> >>> construction companies. The name of the company is "She Can" and the
> >>> dumpsters are all painted pink.
> >
> >The Dempster Brothers, Inc of Knoxville TN. became very successful in
> >in marketing their product: Dempster Dumpmaster. The product became
> >known as the "Dempster Dumpster" and then just "dumpster". The word
> >"dumpster" is now the generic term for any manufacturer's similar
> >product.
> >So how did they become known as "skips" in the UK?
>
> "That's all right Squire, we'll skip the paperwork."

You probably don''t have "86" in that sense. But you probably do have
"deep six (v.)," made popular by the Watergate hearings some 50 years ago.

> Well, obviously, leg-pulling aside, it's from 'skep' which in turn comes
> from Late Old English 'sceppe', thence from Old Norse skeppa basket,
> bushel. Related to Old Saxon scepil, Old High German sceffil (German
> Scheffel).
>
> Skep in English means a basket, hamper, tub, etc., of locally varying
> size, form, and use. A skip is a skep of the more muscular form.
>
> I am indebted to those kindly folk at the Oxford dictionaries for this
> information.

aka "lmgtfy." He didn't even bother with his "research" this time.

[TonyCooper]

Interesting, or (if I want to confuse Hongy) very interesting.

In the US, if you come across a name of an object that doesn't explain
what the object is, it's probably the name of the company that is
best-known for making that object.

In the UK, if you come across a name of an object that doesn't explain
what the object is, you have to know Old Norse and have access to the
Oxford font of knowledge.

Unless, of course, it's a large object involved in moving dirt around.
In that case, it's a "JCB" which is the name of the company that is
best-known for making that object.

[TonyCooper]

On Wed, 31 May 2023 14:52:41 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Wednesday, May 31, 2023 at 4:01:09?PM UTC-4, Paul Wolff wrote:
>> On Wed, 31 May 2023, at 14:52:59, TonyCooper posted:
>> >On Wed, 31 May 23 18:15:02 UTC, charles <cha...@candehope.me.uk>
>> >> TonyCooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> First, a translation. In the US a "dumpster" is a large container in
>> >>> which trash and other debris is placed. Many apartment and condo
>> >>> complexes have them onsite in various locations within the complex so
>> >>> residents can place their trash (usually in plastic bags) in them for
>> >>> disposal. Businesses and stores usually have one behind the building.
>> >>
>> >>> The are also rented to construction firms for temporary use at a
>> >>> building site.
>> >>
>> >>> I think the UK term is "skip".
>> >>
>> >>Yes, it is.
>> >>
>> >>> In Orlando there's a woman-owned firm that rents dumpsters to
>> >>> construction companies. The name of the company is "She Can" and the
>> >>> dumpsters are all painted pink.
>> >
>> >The Dempster Brothers, Inc of Knoxville TN. became very successful in
>> >in marketing their product: Dempster Dumpmaster. The product became
>> >known as the "Dempster Dumpster" and then just "dumpster". The word
>> >"dumpster" is now the generic term for any manufacturer's similar
>> >product.
>> >So how did they become known as "skips" in the UK?
>>
>> "That's all right Squire, we'll skip the paperwork."
>
>You probably don''t have "86" in that sense.

The usual meaning of "86" is to indicate in a restaurant that the item
is no longer available. The cook would tell the wait staff
"Eighty-six the pork chops" when the pork chops that were on the menu
are no longer available.

> But you probably do have
>"deep six (v.)," made popular by the Watergate hearings some 50 years ago.
>

To "deep six" something means to permanently dispose of it.


The two have quite different meanings. When something is 86'd, it's
off the menu today but may return tomorrow or some other day. When
something is deep sixed, it will never appear again.

To skip something has yet another meaning. Something skipped remains,
but nothing is done about it or attention paid to it. It is neither
86'd nor deep sixed.

[Paul Wolff]

On Wed, 31 May 2023, at 18:00:11, TonyCooper posted:

In that sense, AmE 'dirt' is BrE 'earth'. We in BrE-land have
earth-moving machinery. (Did the earth move for you too?) This being
a.u.e, I'm bound to remind everyone that 'dirt' in AmE goes beyond
things unclean, and includes good healthy soil.

But then 'soil' is still in some of their senses a synonym either of
'dirt' or of one of its derivatives - so in verb forms, to soil
something is to dirty it.

>In that case, it's a "JCB" which is the name of the company that is
>best-known for making that object.
>

Also Mr J. C. Bamford.
--
Paul W

[Jerry Friedman]

On Wednesday, May 31, 2023 at 4:40:56 PM UTC-6, TonyCooper wrote:
> On Wed, 31 May 2023 14:52:41 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >On Wednesday, May 31, 2023 at 4:01:09?PM UTC-4, Paul Wolff wrote:
> >> On Wed, 31 May 2023, at 14:52:59, TonyCooper posted:

[Dumpster]

> >> >So how did they become known as "skips" in the UK?
> >>
> >> "That's all right Squire, we'll skip the paperwork."
> >
> >You probably don''t have "86" in that sense.

> The usual meaning of "86" is to indicate in a restaurant that the item
> is no longer available. The cook would tell the wait staff
> "Eighty-six the pork chops" when the pork chops that were on the menu
> are no longer available.

...

Usual or just original? The only meaning for the verb "86" I've actually
heard from real people in real life is "thrown out of a bar". Not that I've
heard much behind the scenes in a restaurant.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Sam Plusnet]

On 31-May-23 23:41, TonyCooper wrote:

> To "deep six" something means to permanently dispose of it.

In the second hand bookshop, they are reducing stock:

"Deep six all those Mark Twain volumes."

--
Sam Plusnet

[Jerry Friedman]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bw3Qg_teUwQ

(The late Harry Belafonte.)

--
Jerry Friedman

[TonyCooper]

On Wed, 31 May 2023 17:35:02 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
<jerry.fr...@gmail.com> wrote:

Well, I have no experience with people being thrown out of bars or
bars where that is likely to happen. I haven't read/heard about
someone being eighty-sixed at a bar, either.