rounder
Jim Ward
bad all-rounder? Makes the rounds, like a pub-crawler?
Wood Avens
Are you sure? You aren't thinking of a bounder, are you?
--
Katy Jennison
spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @
raymond o'hara
"Jim Ward" <tomca...@NyOaShPoAoM.com> wrote in message
news:qb45p09lqaa4o2hor...@4ax.com...
> Does anyone know why a rounder is a dissolute person? From being a
> bad all-rounder? Makes the rounds, like a pub-crawler?
I know it as bad all around , meaning completely bad , a rounder was a
slang term for cowboy in the old west.
Sara Lorimer
> Does anyone know why a rounder is a dissolute person? From being a
> bad all-rounder? Makes the rounds, like a pub-crawler?
It's short for "round-heeled."
--
SML
Dignity, always dignity.
John Dean
> Does anyone know why a rounder is a dissolute person? From being a
> bad all-rounder? Makes the rounds, like a pub-crawler?
OED says someone who 'makes the rounds' of the prison, workhouse and
saloon - a habitual criminal, drunkard or loafer.
--
John Dean
Oxford
John Dean
> On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 17:10:40 -0500, Jim Ward
> <tomca...@NyOaShPoAoM.com> wrote:
>
>> Does anyone know why a rounder is a dissolute person? From being a
>> bad all-rounder? Makes the rounds, like a pub-crawler?
>
> Are you sure? You aren't thinking of a bounder, are you?
Too long since you watched "Lady and the Tramp"
--
John Dean
Oxford
Donna Richoux
That sounds plausible, yet I don't find any evidence it has meant
"cowboy." Can you suggest something? The Dictionary of the Old West has
no entry for it, only "round-up."
The Dictionary of American English defines "rounder" as "One accustomed
to make the rounds of low resorts; a petty criminal; a man about town,
slang." It dates the word from 1624 which means it was British in
origin, and the US citations refer to New York, Boston, and Chicago.
IMDb says the 1998 movie "Rounders" is about a law school student turned
gambler.
--
Best wishes -- Donna Richoux
John Dean
> raymond o'hara <re...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> "Jim Ward" <tomca...@NyOaShPoAoM.com> wrote in message
>> news:qb45p09lqaa4o2hor...@4ax.com...
>>> Does anyone know why a rounder is a dissolute person? From being a
>>> bad all-rounder? Makes the rounds, like a pub-crawler?
>>
>>
>> I know it as bad all around , meaning completely bad , a rounder
>> was a slang term for cowboy in the old west.
>
> That sounds plausible, yet I don't find any evidence it has meant
> "cowboy." Can you suggest something? The Dictionary of the Old West
> has no entry for it, only "round-up."
>
> The Dictionary of American English defines "rounder" as "One
> accustomed to make the rounds of low resorts; a petty criminal; a man
> about town, slang." It dates the word from 1624 which means it was
> British in origin, and the US citations refer to New York, Boston,
> and Chicago.
>
OED also has 'rounder' as US slang for a railroad worker:
"Come all you rounders, for I want you to hear The story told of an
engineer,
Casey Jones was the rounder's name, A heavy right-wheeler of a mighty
fame."
I'd be more inclined to expect "rounder-upper" as a term for a cowboy.
--
John Dean
Oxford
Raymond S. Wise
news:1gn2b6a.bm4if510oeci3N%tr...@euronet.nl...
The definition in *The Century Dictionary* shows the rounds which the
"rounder" makes to include incarceration:
From
www.century-dictionary.com
[quote]
*rounder* [...], _n._ [< _round_1, _v.,_ + _er_1.]
[...]
*2.*
One who habitually goes round, or from point
to point and back, for any purpose ; especially,
one who continually goes the round of misde-
meanor, arrest, trial, imprisonment, and re-
lease, as a habitual drunkard or petty thief.
G---- had made himself conspicuous as a _rounder,_ . . .
and occupied much of his time in threatening employes
of the various railroad companies.
_Philadelphia Times,_ 1886.
A very large proportion of the inmates [of the work-
house on Blackwell's Island] are "old _rounders_" who re-
turn to the Island again and again.
_Christian Union,_ Aug. 25, 1887.
During our civil war the regiments which were com-
posed of plug-uglies, thugs, and midnight _rounders,_ with
noses laid over to one side as evidence of their prowess
in bar-room mills and paving-stone riots, were generally
cringing cowards in battle. _The Century,_ XXXVI. 249.
[end quote]
--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com
Ben Zimmer
>
> The Dictionary of American English defines "rounder" as "One accustomed
> to make the rounds of low resorts; a petty criminal; a man about town,
> slang." It dates the word from 1624 which means it was British in
> origin, and the US citations refer to New York, Boston, and Chicago.
>
> IMDb says the 1998 movie "Rounders" is about a law school student turned
> gambler.
As the term is used in the movie, a "rounder" is a poker hustler.
Laura F Spira
> Jim Ward wrote:
>
>
>>Does anyone know why a rounder is a dissolute person? From being a
>>bad all-rounder? Makes the rounds, like a pub-crawler?
>
>
> It's short for "round-heeled."
>
Which reminds me that another good book I read this year is Jane Juska's
"A Round-heeled Woman."
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Joe Fineman
> OED also has 'rounder' as US slang for a railroad worker:
> "Come all you rounders, for I want you to hear The story told of an
> engineer,
> Casey Jones was the rounder's name, A heavy right-wheeler of a mighty
> fame."
I have heard that it originally meant a retired railroad worker, such
as would frequent a roundhouse (locomotive shed).
--
--- Joe Fineman jo...@verizon.net
||: Mixima should be rendered manimal. :||
Mickwick
[...]
>G---- had made himself conspicuous as a _rounder,_ . . .
>and occupied much of his time in threatening employes
>of the various railroad companies.
> _Philadelphia Times,_ 1886.
>
>A very large proportion of the inmates [of the work-
>house on Blackwell's Island] are "old _rounders_" who re-
>turn to the Island again and again.
> _Christian Union,_ Aug. 25, 1887.
>
>During our civil war the regiments which were com-
>posed of plug-uglies, thugs, and midnight _rounders,_ with
>noses laid over to one side as evidence of their prowess
>in bar-room mills and paving-stone riots, were generally
>cringing cowards in battle. _The Century,_ XXXVI. 249.
George Matsell, _Vocabulum_, 1859: A rounder is
One who hangs around faro-banks but does not play. In other
words, a loafer, a man who travels on his shape, and is
supported by a woman, but does not receive enough money to
enable him to play faro. Gamblers call such men rounders,
outsiders, loafers.
Quoted in Eric Partridge's _Dictionary of the Underworld_.
--
Mickwick
Sara Lorimer
> que.sara....@gmail.com (Sara Lorimer) wrote>...
> > Jim Ward wrote:
> >
> > > Does anyone know why a rounder is a dissolute person? From being a
> > > bad all-rounder? Makes the rounds, like a pub-crawler?
> >
> > It's short for "round-heeled."
>
> I don't think so: in the spectrum of dissolute persons, a "rounder" is
> a man, while a "roundheels" is a woman.
You may well be right. I've been reading a book lately where a man is
described as a "rounder" meaning that he's easy, and I made an
assumption. It's not a term I encounter often (I don't associate with
such low people, thankyouverymuch).
--
SML
Ben Zimmer
>
> George Matsell, _Vocabulum_, 1859: A rounder is
>
> One who hangs around faro-banks but does not play. In other
> words, a loafer, a man who travels on his shape, and is
> supported by a woman, but does not receive enough money to
> enable him to play faro. Gamblers call such men rounders,
> outsiders, loafers.
>
> Quoted in Eric Partridge's _Dictionary of the Underworld_.
Hmm, well that's quite different from the sense of the term in the 1998
movie "Rounders". There it clearly meant a hustler/shark in the world
of high-stakes poker. In the movie it's explained that a "rounder" is
so called because he makes the "rounds" of the poker rooms.
From rec.gambling.poker, quoting the poker guru Doyle Brunson:
> "ROUNDER
> "A very good Professional Poker Player who makes the "Rounds" of
> various games. However, a *Rounder* is a lower class of player
> than a *Gambler*."
> (SUPER/SYSTEM, p. 545)
More discussion of the term in this thread:
http://groups.google.com/groups?th=2921a5902890df69
don groves
mick...@use.reply.to exposited:
I've read there was a lot of gambling up in Alaska during those
days but I didn't realize they named a town after a game.
--
dg (domain=ccwebster)
The Rounder
I feel I should chime in. I've always knows "rounder" to mean a card
player. Someone who makes their living making their rounds playing
cards. I've gone as far as putting it on my license plates, and all of
my screen names online. Hopefully I haven't been insulting myself this
entire time.
Mickwick
>I've read there was a lot of gambling up in Alaska during those
>days but I didn't realize they named a town after a game.
Hey, they named an entire state after Texas Hold 'Em.
--
Mickwick
Mickwick
>Mickwick wrote:
>> One who hangs around faro-banks but does not play.
>Hmm, well that's quite different from the sense of the term in the 1998
>movie "Rounders". There it clearly meant a hustler/shark in the world
>of high-stakes poker. In the movie it's explained that a "rounder" is
>so called because he makes the "rounds" of the poker rooms.
[...]
I suppose the 'hanging around', 'doing the rounds' and 'going round and
round' possibilities make it ripe for so many uses that a contradictory
one was inevitable.
And the faro loafer meaning has been obsolete for quite a while. _A
Dictionary of the Underworld_ says that it had morphed into 'one who
hangs around' in a more general sense by 1903. In about 1910, this
morphed again to become 'Any underworld character, but usually one old
and of wide acquaintance'.
Other meanings given therein:
'A vehicle on four wheels (not a waggon [Hi, Harvey!]): English: 1863'.
A police informer, English, 1880, from the verb to round = to inform.
'Man habitué of brothels - he goes the rounds' - _Yankee Slang_, 1932.
'An habitual criminal, esp. one who is often in jail', from about 1920.
'Small-time gangstes [sic; the A and second S italicised, which is
odd]', Canadian, from about 1940.
There are a lot of other 'round' words. For instance, 'Roundhead' was
tramps' slang for a Swede; 'rounds' was 'mostly tramps'' slang for
trousers (from the rhyming slang 'round-the-houses'); '(a)round the
horn' meant 'A trip around the circuit of city police stations for the
purpose of being identified by the victims'; and the adjective 'round'
meant 'Honest, not engaged in crime', _The Slang Dictionary_, 1859.
Incidentally, when, in the early part of the nineteenth century, some
low-life said of some other low-life, 'He has been voting for the
Alderman', the low-life of the first part meant that the low-life of the
second part was drunk. After Alderman Lushington, a London brewer.
While googling for the identity of Alderman Lushington, I came across
this enormous list of drunken words:
http://freaky_freya.tripod.com/Drunktionary/A-B.html
I hope it proves useful to all those in AUE who occasionally get
nimptopsical (one of 227 synonyms listed by Benjamin Franklin).
--
Mickwick
Ben Zimmer
>
> Incidentally, when, in the early part of the nineteenth century, some
> low-life said of some other low-life, 'He has been voting for the
> Alderman', the low-life of the first part meant that the low-life of the
> second part was drunk. After Alderman Lushington, a London brewer.
"Alderman Lushington" was a title bestowed on the member of a drinking
club, not an actual person's name. Here's how the OED explains it:
Punning use of the surname Lushington, with allusion to LUSH n.2
The 'City of Lushington' was the name of a convivial society
(consisting chiefly of actors) which met at the Harp Tavern,
Russell Street, until about 1895. It had a 'Lord Mayor' and four
'aldermen', presiding over 'wards' called Juniper, Poverty,
Lunacy, and Suicide. On the admission of a new member, the 'Lord
Mayor' (of late years at least) harangued him on the evils of
excess in drink. The 'City' claimed to have existed for 150
years; if this claim be well-founded, the existence of LUSH n.2
will be authenticated for a date considerably earlier than that
of our first quot. Our information is from 'Sir' B. Davies, the
last 'Lord Mayor of Lushington'.
Here are the earliest cites for "Lushington":
1823 'JON BEE' Dict. Turf s.v. Lush, 'Lushington' or 'dealing
with Lushington', taking too much drink.
1823 EGAN Grose's Dict. Vulgar Tongue, s.v. Lush, Speaking of a
person who is drunk they say, Alderman Lushington is concerned,
or, he has been voting for the Alderman.
1826 The Fancy I. 31 He is reported not to take sufficient care
of himself: Lushington is evidently his master.
don groves
mick...@use.reply.to exposited:
There's a state named Hold'em? Used to an actor by that name but
never heard of a state.
--
dg (domain=ccwebster)
Mickwick
>"Alderman Lushington" was a title bestowed on the member of a drinking
>club, not an actual person's name. Here's how the OED explains it:
>
> Punning use of the surname Lushington, with allusion to LUSH n.2
> The 'City of Lushington' was the name of a convivial society
> (consisting chiefly of actors) which met at the Harp Tavern,
> Russell Street, until about 1895. It had a 'Lord Mayor' and four
> 'aldermen', presiding over 'wards' called Juniper, Poverty,
> Lunacy, and Suicide. On the admission of a new member, the 'Lord
> Mayor' (of late years at least) harangued him on the evils of
> excess in drink.
[...]
That's more like it! Much more interesting than 'a London brewer'. I
particularly like the Juniper, Poverty etc. and the lectures on the
evils of drink - this was presumably an up-sticking of two fingers at
Hogarth and other pussy-footers.
An offshoot of the City of Lushington became the Royal Antediluvian
Order of Buffaloes. The City was at first open to anyone connected with
the theatre but meetings became too crowded and stagehands and other
lesser beings were excluded. The latter responded by setting up their
own convivial society (The Buffs), from which actors were excluded. They
too met at the Harp Tavern, but presumably on different nights.
http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/Writings/buffaloes.html
http://themasonictrowel.com/Links/non_masonic_organizations.htm
--
Mickwick
Joe Fineman
> While googling for the identity of Alderman Lushington, I came
> across this enormous list of drunken words:
>
> http://freaky_freya.tripod.com/Drunktionary/A-B.html
They missed "hokee-mut" (presumably from some Indian language), used
by Kipling in "The Shut-Eye Sentry".
--
--- Joe Fineman jo...@verizon.net
||: Corporations are pieces of government that got away. :||