mead, kosher for Passover?

[Adam Funk]

On a brewing-related list I read, someone who is not Jewish wants to
know how to qualify mead as kosher for Passover (he's been invited to
an eclectic potluck Seder described as "quasi-Kosher", meaning follow
the rules except that your own batterie de cuisine doesn't have to be
kosher).


AIUI, the Passover prohibition of leavening applies only to bread-like
things, not to fermented beverages, although I've heard that you may
have to ensure the yeast was not been grown on bread. (However, I
imagine most commercially produced yeasts for home brewing &
winemaking are grown in a sugar solution anyway.)

AIUI, in addition to the general requirements for kosher beverages
(that they must not contain or have come in contact with unclean
ingredients), wine must not have been handled by gentiles. Does this
include mead (made from honey, not grapes)? How about pyment (made
from honey and grape juice)?


(I don't have a horse in this race; I'm just curious.)


--
I heard that Hans Christian Andersen lifted the title for "The Little
Mermaid" off a Red Lobster Menu. [Bucky Katt]

[James Silverton]

On 3/16/2012 11:02 AM, Adam Funk wrote:
> On a brewing-related list I read, someone who is not Jewish wants to
> know how to qualify mead as kosher for Passover (he's been invited to
> an eclectic potluck Seder described as "quasi-Kosher", meaning follow
> the rules except that your own batterie de cuisine doesn't have to be
> kosher).
>
>
> AIUI, the Passover prohibition of leavening applies only to bread-like
> things, not to fermented beverages, although I've heard that you may
> have to ensure the yeast was not been grown on bread. (However, I
> imagine most commercially produced yeasts for home brewing&
> winemaking are grown in a sugar solution anyway.)
>
> AIUI, in addition to the general requirements for kosher beverages
> (that they must not contain or have come in contact with unclean
> ingredients), wine must not have been handled by gentiles. Does this
> include mead (made from honey, not grapes)? How about pyment (made
> from honey and grape juice)?
>
>
> (I don't have a horse in this race; I'm just curious.)
>
>

Again, I don't have a horse in the race either, but as I recall, the
grapes can be picked by non-Jews but the bottling has to be done by
observant Jews. Chateau Mouton Rothschild could be kosher if Baron
Rothschild bottled it himself.

--
Jim Silverton (Potomac, MD)

Extraneous "not" in Reply To.

[R H Draney]

Adam Funk filted:

>
>AIUI, in addition to the general requirements for kosher beverages
>(that they must not contain or have come in contact with unclean
>ingredients), wine must not have been handled by gentiles. Does this
>include mead (made from honey, not grapes)? How about pyment (made
>from honey and grape juice)?

You need an expert to ascertain whether the bees were Jewish....r


--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.

[Ian Jackson]

In message <jjvmir$e0c$1...@dont-email.me>, James Silverton
<jim.si...@verizon.net> writes

On their kosher shelves, my local supermarket has boxes of Yorkshire Tea
teabags. There're not normally there, so I guess it's a special for
Passover. They are 50% more expensive than the same non-kosher product
in the general area.
--
Ian

[Jerry Friedman]

On Mar 16, 9:02 am, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
> On a brewing-related list I read, someone who is not Jewish wants to
> know how to qualify mead as kosher for Passover (he's been invited to
> an eclectic potluck Seder described as "quasi-Kosher", meaning follow
> the rules except that your own batterie de cuisine doesn't have to be
> kosher).
>
> AIUI, the Passover prohibition of leavening applies only to bread-like
> things, not to fermented beverages, although I've heard that you may
> have to ensure the yeast was not been grown on bread.  (However, I
> imagine most commercially produced yeasts for home brewing &
> winemaking are grown in a sugar solution anyway.)
>
> AIUI, in addition to the general requirements for kosher beverages
> (that they must not contain or have come in contact with unclean
> ingredients), wine must not have been handled by gentiles.  Does this
> include mead (made from honey, not grapes)?  How about pyment (made
> from honey and grape juice)?

See

http://www.asktherabbi.org/DisplayQuestion.asp?ID=720

I suspect mead is okay but pyment (which I hadn't heard of) isn't.

Probably only grape wine is appropriate for the four cups of wine at a
seder.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/14941-wine

Whether it's kosher for Passover might depend on where it was made,
specifically on whether there was any leavened bread in the same
room. Making a room kosher for Passover takes some doing, I believe.
On the other hand, the person's friends may not be worried about this,
based on the /batterie de cuisine/ rule.

If this person wants authoritative answers, there are several "ask a
rabbi" sites.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Jerry Friedman]

On Mar 16, 9:17 pm, Jerry Friedman <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Mar 16, 9:02 am, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On a brewing-related list I read, someone who is not Jewish wants to
> > know how to qualify mead as kosher for Passover

...

> Whether it's kosher for Passover might depend on where it was made,
> specifically on whether there was any leavened bread in the same
> room.  Making a room kosher for Passover takes some doing, I believe.

I think I mean "house" or "building", not room. But the mead-brewer
should get advice from someone who knows.

--
Jerry Friedman

[LFS]

On 16/03/2012 22:25, Ian Jackson wrote:
> In message <jjvmir$e0c$1...@dont-email.me>, James Silverton
> <jim.si...@verizon.net> writes
>> On 3/16/2012 11:02 AM, Adam Funk wrote:
>>> On a brewing-related list I read, someone who is not Jewish wants to
>>> know how to qualify mead as kosher for Passover (he's been invited to
>>> an eclectic potluck Seder described as "quasi-Kosher", meaning follow
>>> the rules except that your own batterie de cuisine doesn't have to be
>>> kosher).
>>>
>>>
>>> AIUI, the Passover prohibition of leavening applies only to bread-like
>>> things, not to fermented beverages, although I've heard that you may
>>> have to ensure the yeast was not been grown on bread. (However, I
>>> imagine most commercially produced yeasts for home brewing&
>>> winemaking are grown in a sugar solution anyway.)

Whisky is prohibited at Passover.

>>>
>>> AIUI, in addition to the general requirements for kosher beverages
>>> (that they must not contain or have come in contact with unclean
>>> ingredients), wine must not have been handled by gentiles. Does this
>>> include mead (made from honey, not grapes)? How about pyment (made
>>> from honey and grape juice)?
>>>
>>>
>>> (I don't have a horse in this race; I'm just curious.)
>>>
>>>
>> Again, I don't have a horse in the race either, but as I recall, the
>> grapes can be picked by non-Jews but the bottling has to be done by
>> observant Jews. Chateau Mouton Rothschild could be kosher if Baron
>> Rothschild bottled it himself.
>>
> On their kosher shelves, my local supermarket has boxes of Yorkshire Tea
> teabags. There're not normally there, so I guess it's a special for
> Passover. They are 50% more expensive than the same non-kosher product
> in the general area.

Which is why I have finally stopped paying a Passover premium for such
things. Onec upon a time, the rationale was that you were paying extra
for a suitably qualified rabbi to stand in the factory to make sure none
of the employees ate sandwiches which might have polluted the production
line. These days with automation and improved hygiene it seems to me
most unlikely that this actually happens.

--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)

[Ian Jackson]

In message <9sjldc...@mid.individual.net>, LFS
<la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> writes

Cynics might argue that, with all the health n'safety n'hygiene these
days, there is little need for 'kosher-ism'. Mind you, the pre-passover
preparation of the house is still a pretty good way of enforcing a
thorough, annual, spring clean!
--
Ian

[Curlytop]

Ian Jackson set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time
continuum:

> On their kosher shelves, my local supermarket has boxes of Yorkshire Tea
> teabags. There're not normally there, so I guess it's a special for
> Passover. They are 50% more expensive than the same non-kosher product
> in the general area.

Were the packs any different e.g. flash-marked to be kosher? Did they have
the same barcode?

I'm non-J so please excuse my ignorance on these matters. Is "kosher for
Passover" any different from any other kosher, i.e. are there extra
regulations that need to have been followed?
--
ξ: ) Proud to be curly

Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply

[Adam Funk]

On 2012-03-16, Adam Funk wrote:

> AIUI, in addition to the general requirements for kosher beverages
> (that they must not contain or have come in contact with unclean
> ingredients), wine must not have been handled by gentiles. Does this
> include mead (made from honey, not grapes)? How about pyment (made
> from honey and grape juice)?

While researching [in the loose sense: fooling around on the WWW]
this, I came across an article about a curious product, "kosher for
Passover beer", which has no grain in it:

Instead of extracting sugar from a grain, the brewer simply
eliminates the grain and uses molasses and honey, which he mixes
with hops. He will cook the mixture in the newly koshered cookers,
pass the mixture over the koshered cooling elements, let it cool in
the koshered fermenters, then add yeast — which did not come from a
bread product — and wait about two weeks for the whole thing to
ferment, creating "a reasonable facsimile of beer," according to
Blech.

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/kosher/passover_beer.php3


--
Le beau est aussi utile que l'utile. [Victor Hugo]

[Adam Funk]

On 2012-03-17, Curlytop wrote:

> Ian Jackson set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time
> continuum:
>
>> On their kosher shelves, my local supermarket has boxes of Yorkshire Tea
>> teabags. There're not normally there, so I guess it's a special for
>> Passover. They are 50% more expensive than the same non-kosher product
>> in the general area.
>
> Were the packs any different e.g. flash-marked to be kosher? Did they have
> the same barcode?
>
> I'm non-J so please excuse my ignorance on these matters. Is "kosher for
> Passover" any different from any other kosher, i.e. are there extra
> regulations that need to have been followed?

AFAI[also non-J]CT, the extra regulation is the prohibition of
anything that results from contact between yeast & grain.


--
When you look at a photograph of the earth you don't see any
borders. That realization is where our hope as a planet lies.
[Graham Nash]

[Ian Jackson]

In message <jk2pr7$q88$2...@dont-email.me>, Curlytop
<pvstownse...@ntlworld.com> writes

>Ian Jackson set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time
>continuum:
>
>> On their kosher shelves, my local supermarket has boxes of Yorkshire Tea
>> teabags. There're not normally there, so I guess it's a special for
>> Passover. They are 50% more expensive than the same non-kosher product
>> in the general area.
>
>Were the packs any different e.g. flash-marked to be kosher? Did they have
>the same barcode?
>

There was something short in Hebrew printed on the box. [I can recognise
'kosher', but I can't remember if it said that.]

>I'm non-J so please excuse my ignorance on these matters. Is "kosher for
>Passover" any different from any other kosher, i.e. are there extra
>regulations that need to have been followed?

I'm sure that both are equally wholesome and of identical taste, and I
think the difference is essentially similar to 'clean' and
'squeaky-clean and blessed'. However, I'm sure that someone better
qualified will answer!
--
Ian

[Adam Funk]

On 2012-03-17, Jerry Friedman wrote:

> Probably only grape wine is appropriate for the four cups of wine at a
> seder.
>
> http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/14941-wine

I see:

For religious ceremonies wine is preferable to other beverages. Wine
"cheereth God" (Judges ix. 13); hence no religious ceremony should
be performed with other beverages than wine (Ber. 35a).

but can you have other beverages at a Seder in addition to the four
cups?


--
svn ci -m 'come back make, all is forgiven!' build.xml

[Adam Funk]

It seems likely to me that all the bees already in the "land flowing
with milk and honey" when the Hebrews arrived were not Jewish.


--
Mathematiker sind wie Franzosen: Was man ihnen auch sagt, übersetzen
sie in ihre eigene Sprache, so daß unverzüglich etwas völlig anderes
daraus wird. [Goethe]

[Martin Ambuhl]

Adam Funk wrote on Friday, March 16, 2012 11:02 AM (alt.usage.english):

> On a brewing-related list I read, someone who is not Jewish wants to
> know how to qualify mead as kosher for Passover (he's been invited to
> an eclectic potluck Seder described as "quasi-Kosher", meaning follow
> the rules except that your own batterie de cuisine doesn't have to be
> kosher).

See if <http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/384032> helps.

[Adam Funk]

Interesting. I'm not surprised it's hard to find KFP beer yeast
(since beer, unless it's a grainless imitation like the one I
mentioned in a previous post, can't be KFP anyway), but I'm surprised
home wine yeast is hard to find.

One of the comments there mentions spelt beer as KFP --- I'm
surprised, since spelt was a well-known grain in classical times, so
I'd expect it to count as "grain" for KFP purposes.

Anyway, here are the responses other people made to the post I read:

http://www.talisman.com/mead/curyr/1577


--
When a man tells you that he got rich through hard work, ask him
whose? --- Don Marquis

[Mike L]

On Wed, 21 Mar 2012 20:59:51 +0000, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com>
wrote:
[...]

>
>One of the comments there mentions spelt beer as KFP --- I'm
>surprised, since spelt was a well-known grain in classical times, so
>I'd expect it to count as "grain" for KFP purposes.

I was surprised to discover (OED) that spelt wasn't simply an early
variety of wheat, rather than a closely related species. I've made
spelt bread, and it was very tasty.

>
>Anyway, here are the responses other people made to the post I read:
>
>http://www.talisman.com/mead/curyr/1577

Mind-boggling!

--
Mike.

[Dr Nick]

Mike L <n...@yahoo.co.uk> writes:

> On Wed, 21 Mar 2012 20:59:51 +0000, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com>
> wrote:
> [...]
>>
>>One of the comments there mentions spelt beer as KFP --- I'm
>>surprised, since spelt was a well-known grain in classical times, so
>>I'd expect it to count as "grain" for KFP purposes.
>
> I was surprised to discover (OED) that spelt wasn't simply an early
> variety of wheat, rather than a closely related species. I've made
> spelt bread, and it was very tasty.

The origin of modern, hexaploid, bread wheat is complicated, to say the
least. Some plants, including these, behave genetically in a very
different way to that which we are used to thinking about.
--
Online waterways route planner | http://canalplan.eu
Plan trips, see photos, check facilities | http://canalplan.org.uk

[Adam Funk]

On 2012-03-29, Dr Nick wrote:

> Mike L <n...@yahoo.co.uk> writes:

>> I was surprised to discover (OED) that spelt wasn't simply an early
>> variety of wheat, rather than a closely related species. I've made
>> spelt bread, and it was very tasty.

I like it too.

> The origin of modern, hexaploid, bread wheat is complicated, to say the
> least. Some plants, including these, behave genetically in a very
> different way to that which we are used to thinking about.

Ever since I read McGee's (_On Food & Cooking_) section on grains,
it's been bugging me that very closely related species can differ in
something as seemingly fundamental as the number of sets of
chromosomes.


--
But the government always tries to coax well-known writers into the
Establishment; it makes them feel educated. [Robert Graves]

[Lanarcam]

On Mar 29, 3:20 pm, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
> On 2012-03-29, Dr Nick wrote:
>
> > Mike L <n...@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
> >> I was surprised to discover (OED) that spelt wasn't simply an early
> >> variety of wheat, rather than a closely related species. I've made
> >> spelt bread, and it was very tasty.
>
> I like it too.
>
> > The origin of modern, hexaploid, bread wheat is complicated, to say the
> > least.  Some plants, including these, behave genetically in a very
> > different way to that which we are used to thinking about.
>
> Ever since I read McGee's (_On Food & Cooking_) section on grains,
> it's been bugging me that very closely related species can differ in
> something as seemingly fundamental as the number of sets of
> chromosomes.
>

Not only plants but chimps and humans differ also in the
number of chromosomes.

[Dr Nick]

Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> writes:

> On 2012-03-29, Dr Nick wrote:
>
>> Mike L <n...@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
>
>>> I was surprised to discover (OED) that spelt wasn't simply an early
>>> variety of wheat, rather than a closely related species. I've made
>>> spelt bread, and it was very tasty.
>
> I like it too.
>
>
>> The origin of modern, hexaploid, bread wheat is complicated, to say the
>> least. Some plants, including these, behave genetically in a very
>> different way to that which we are used to thinking about.
>
> Ever since I read McGee's (_On Food & Cooking_) section on grains,
> it's been bugging me that very closely related species can differ in
> something as seemingly fundamental as the number of sets of
> chromosomes.

What seems to happen is that two closely related but distinct species
interbreed and - as with tigons and mules and the like - the offspring
is infertile.

One reason for the infertility is because although the chromosome number
may be same in both animals some genes have moved round, so gametes
don't contain a complete set of genes.

But (perhaps because this happens much much more often in
something as numerous as a small plant compared with a large animal)
once in a blue moon something goes wrong in cell division and you get an
offspring with two complete sets of chromosomes, one from each parent.
If two of these breed then you suddenly have a population with twice as
many chromosomes as the parents. Mechanisms to cope with the gene
overload rapidly evolve and you suddenly have a new species.

[Jeffrey Turner]

Anyone named "Blech" shouldn't be doing food reviews.

--Jeff

[Adam Funk]

On 2012-03-29, Jeffrey Turner wrote:

> Anyone named "Blech" shouldn't be doing food reviews.

Why not? I have a German-English dictionary here that gives "plate"
as the first equivalent. ;-)


--
Anything invented before your 15th birthday is the order of nature.
Anything invented between your 15th and 35th birthday is new and
exciting. Anything invented after that day, however, is against
nature and should be prohibited. [Douglas Adams]

[Adam Funk]

On 2012-03-29, Dr Nick wrote:

> Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> writes:

>> Ever since I read McGee's (_On Food & Cooking_) section on grains,
>> it's been bugging me that very closely related species can differ in
>> something as seemingly fundamental as the number of sets of
>> chromosomes.
>
> What seems to happen is that two closely related but distinct species
> interbreed and - as with tigons and mules and the like - the offspring
> is infertile.
>
> One reason for the infertility is because although the chromosome number
> may be same in both animals some genes have moved round, so gametes
> don't contain a complete set of genes.
>
> But (perhaps because this happens much much more often in
> something as numerous as a small plant compared with a large animal)
> once in a blue moon something goes wrong in cell division and you get an
> offspring with two complete sets of chromosomes, one from each parent.
> If two of these breed then you suddenly have a population with twice as
> many chromosomes as the parents. Mechanisms to cope with the gene
> overload rapidly evolve and you suddenly have a new species.

Well, when you put it like that, it makes sense.
:-)



--
When Elaine turned 11, her mother sent her to train under
Donald Knuth in his mountain hideaway. [XKCD 342]

[Mike L]

On Fri, 30 Mar 2012 12:46:38 +0100, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com>
wrote:

>On 2012-03-29, Jeffrey Turner wrote:
>
>> Anyone named "Blech" shouldn't be doing food reviews.
>
>Why not? I have a German-English dictionary here that gives "plate"
>as the first equivalent. ;-)

Anything to do with the London Mozart Players' Harry Blech? Harry B
certainly looked no stranger to plates.

--
Mike.

[John Holmes]

But doesn't it sometimes happen within a single species, without there being
a hybrid involved? For example, the kiwi fruit appearing from the chinese
gooseberry.

--
Regards
John
for mail: my initials plus a u e
at tpg dot com dot au

[Mike L]

On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 09:16:36 +1100, "John Holmes" <s...@sig.instead>
wrote:

And that, together with the single-generation transformation of the
persimmon into the Sharon fruit, destroys at a stroke the godless
fantasy of Evilutionism.

--
Mike.

[Adam Funk]

Birds evolving from fruit? Or the other way round? Madness either
way.


--
...the reason why so many professional artists drink a lot is not
necessarily very much to do with the artistic temperament, etc. It is
simply that they can afford to, because they can normally take a large
part of a day off to deal with the ravages. [Amis _On Drink_]

[Mike L]

On Sun, 01 Apr 2012 21:42:38 +0100, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com>
wrote:

>On 2012-03-31, Mike L wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 09:16:36 +1100, "John Holmes" <s...@sig.instead>
>> wrote:
>
>>>But doesn't it sometimes happen within a single species, without there being
>>>a hybrid involved? For example, the kiwi fruit appearing from the chinese
>>>gooseberry.
>>
>> And that, together with the single-generation transformation of the
>> persimmon into the Sharon fruit, destroys at a stroke the godless
>> fantasy of Evilutionism.
>
>Birds evolving from fruit? Or the other way round? Madness either
>way.

Is a Hong Kong chaperone a Chinese gooseberry?

--
Mike.

[Jerry Friedman]

While the canola proves that abortion should be forbidden even for the
offspring of rape.

--
Jerry Friedman admits that was tasteless.

[Adam Funk]

No, just a bad pun; it's a _German-English Technical and Engineering
Dictionary_ from the 1960s, & the definition goes "plate, sheet, sheet
metal or iron, ..."

[R H Draney]

Adam Funk filted:

Better or worse than mine about listening to Bach in streaming audio?...r


--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.

[Jerry Friedman]

I will not brook puns like that.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Adam Funk]

Sure, but the number of *sets* of chromosomes strikes me as more
substantial.