Why do they use "Imperial" and not "SAE" or "USA" for measurements?

[Kieran Williams]

I've never once in my life heard a mechanic, for example, call his
inch-based wrenches "imperial".

Yesterday, I was looking for a tap to repair my threads on a tire valve and
found that the Wikipedia for Schrader valves has "metric" and "imperial"
sizes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schrader_valve
[quote]
Metric: 7.7 mm OD, thread root diameter is 6.9 mm ? 0.794 mm pitch
Imperial: 0.305 in OD, thread root diameter 0.271 in ? 32 tpi
[/quote]

I realize Imperial "means" USA but why not just say USA (or SAE)?

The US isn't "imperial" as in "Imperial Japan", nor is it imperial as in
"The UK", so, why call it Imperial when it's really just USA inches?

What's the rationale for such a confusing descriptin?

[Cheryl]

They probably inherited the name along with the measurement system from
a place that was an empire.

--
Cheryl

[Richard Heathfield]

On 07/12/16 16:52, Kieran Williams wrote:
> I've never once in my life heard a mechanic, for example, call his
> inch-based wrenches "imperial".

I have.

> Yesterday, I was looking for a tap to repair my threads on a tire valve and
> found that the Wikipedia for Schrader valves has "metric" and "imperial"
> sizes.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schrader_valve
> [quote]
> Metric: 7.7 mm OD, thread root diameter is 6.9 mm ? 0.794 mm pitch
> Imperial: 0.305 in OD, thread root diameter 0.271 in ? 32 tpi
> [/quote]
>
> I realize Imperial "means" USA but why not just say USA (or SAE)?

No, it means the British Empire, not the American Empire.

> The US isn't "imperial" as in "Imperial Japan", nor is it imperial as in
> "The UK",

Yes.

> so, why call it Imperial when it's really just USA inches?

We had them first.

> What's the rationale for such a confusing descriptin?

What's confusing about it? The Imperial inch is the inch used by the
(British) Empire. "Imperial" and "Empire" share a common root,
"imperare" (Latin: "to command").

If there is any confusion, there is nothing stopping the USA from
changing their system of measurement to something else, such as the
Potrzebie System of Weights and Measures, which was developed by a
prominent US computer scientist some decades ago. Its fundamental unit
of length is the Potrzebie, which is equivalent to
2.263348517438173216473 mm, or 0.089108209 inches.

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

[Richard Tobin]

In article <o29eo7$r9n$1...@gioia.aioe.org>,

Kieran Williams <KieranW...@plusnet.net> wrote:

>I've never once in my life heard a mechanic, for example, call his
>inch-based wrenches "imperial".

You probably live in America.

>Yesterday, I was looking for a tap to repair my threads on a tire valve and
>found that the Wikipedia for Schrader valves has "metric" and "imperial"
>sizes.
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schrader_valve
>[quote]
> Metric: 7.7 mm OD, thread root diameter is 6.9 mm ? 0.794 mm pitch
> Imperial: 0.305 in OD, thread root diameter 0.271 in ? 32 tpi
>[/quote]
>
>I realize Imperial "means" USA but why not just say USA (or SAE)?

"Imperial" doesn't mean USA. We still often use inches etc in
Britain, and the old units are often referred to as "Imperial",
as that's what they once were.

>The US isn't "imperial" as in "Imperial Japan", nor is it imperial as in
>"The UK", so, why call it Imperial when it's really just USA inches?

They're inches, not "USA inches".

>What's the rationale for such a confusing descriptin?

It's not confusing for British readers. You seem to want Wikipedia to
be written in American English, but they have a different policy on
the subject.

-- Richard

[Peter T. Daniels]

You're mistaken. When we drove in Canada in the 1960s, we filled our car's
gas tank in "imperial gallons," which are larger than US "customary
measures." A British "pint" in a pub is larger than a US pint, etc.

It may be that valve measurements didn't vary transatlantically, so
"imperial" valves would measure the same as US valves. (Of course
Over There a "valve" is a vacuum tube ...)

[Percival P. Cassidy]

In my experience, Americans call them "Standard" and "Metric."


Perce

[HVS]

On 07 Dec 2016, Richard Tobin wrote

> In article <o29eo7$r9n$1...@gioia.aioe.org>,
> Kieran Williams <KieranW...@plusnet.net> wrote:
>
>> I've never once in my life heard a mechanic, for example, call his
>> inch-based wrenches "imperial".
>
> You probably live in America.

Hmmm; doesn't look like it. (He has a plusnet email address, which AFAIK
means he's UK-based.)

--
Cheers, Harvey
CanEng (30yrs) and BrEng (34yrs), indiscriminately mixed

[Steve Hayes]

On Wed, 07 Dec 2016 16:52:24 +0000, Kieran Williams wrote:

>
> I realize Imperial "means" USA but why not just say USA (or SAE)?

"Imperial" doesn't necessarily mean USA.

> The US isn't "imperial" as in "Imperial Japan", nor is it imperial as in
> "The UK", so, why call it Imperial when it's really just USA inches?
>
> What's the rationale for such a confusing descriptin?

When it comes to measurements, "Imperial" does not mean the same as "USA".

An Imperial gallon is bigger than a US gallon, and an Imperial pint is
bigger than a US pint.

Where threads are concerned, there is (or used to be) British Standard
Whitworth, which was different from American threads.

We bought a British car in 1956 (a Wolseley 4/44) which came with
American threads and nuts and bolts that needed American sized spanners,
which were different from Whitworth spanners, which were again different
from Metric, so mechanics had to have three different sets of spanners in
their toolboxes.

Now most of them just have metric.







--
Steve Hayes http://khanya.wordpress.com

[Whiskers]

Schrader valves were invented in America and are specified in metric
measurements. I don't know why Wikipedia even bothers to mention the
dimensions in inches. Americans do know about the metric system
and have appropriate tools. I think most garage mechanics would pull
out a damaged valve and shove in a new one rather than try to 'repair'
the thread. In the case of a bicycle tyre, if the valve fitting is
faulty fit a new inner-tube.

--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~

[Harrison Hill]

Great to see you back Steve Hayes :)

[Don Phillipson]

"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:7fe304e4-dfe1-4e76...@googlegroups.com...

>> The US isn't "imperial" as in "Imperial Japan", nor is it imperial as in
>> "The UK", so, why call it Imperial when it's really just USA inches?
>>
>> What's the rationale for such a confusing descriptin?
>
> You're mistaken. When we drove in Canada in the 1960s, we filled our car's
> gas tank in "imperial gallons," which are larger than US "customary
> measures." A British "pint" in a pub is larger than a US pint, etc.
>
> It may be that valve measurements didn't vary transatlantically, so
> "imperial" valves would measure the same as US valves. (Of course
> Over There a "valve" is a vacuum tube ...)

https://www.britannica.com/science/British-Imperial-System provides
the history. The British system was formalized in 1824 (for the whole
of the Br. Empire when "Americans were just adopting units based
on those discarded by the act of 1824," which is why the US and
imperial gallon have long been different.

Both American and British practices are slowly converging
towards metric measurements (e.g. Canada adopted metric weights
and measures for food, gasoline etc. several decades ago) but
slowly since the Imperial system was the last non-metric system
used world-wide.

Industrial standards are not so simple as everyday weights
and measures, including as they do information like the angles
at which screw threads are cut, input and output voltages for
electric valves as well as their physical size/shape and number
of pins etc. For this reason, US factories had difficulty making
munitions in WW1 to English and French industrial standards.
A major effort was made in N.America in WW2 to agree on uniform
industrial standards for manufacturing (mediated by Canada
since both (a) a belligerent and UK supplier since 1939 and
(b) equipped with American rather than "imperial" standards
in factories.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

[Osmium]

Wiki is written by real people, not people who specialize in fussy details
such as this.

[Kieran Williams]

Steve Hayes scrit:

> We bought a British car in 1956 (a Wolseley 4/44) which came with
> American threads and nuts and bolts that needed American sized spanners,
> which were different from Whitworth spanners, which were again different
> from Metric, so mechanics had to have three different sets of spanners in
> their toolboxes.
>
> Now most of them just have metric.

Well, I guess this is just even more confusing but I understand what you
wrote.

In fact, even here in the US, we have a mix of standards for our tires:

P200/50R16 400/A/B 104T 10ply

P = passenger
200 = 200 mm wide
50 = 50% as tall as it is wide
R = radial
16 = 16 inches in diameter
400 = treadwear of 400% of a secret standard (often assumed to be 25K
miles)
A = traction dry straight
B = temperature (mostly due to speed)
104 = load range based on a lookup table
T = speed again, based on a lookup table
10-ply = load range again, based on historical ply ratings

[Kieran Williams]

Percival P. Cassidy scrit:

> In my experience, Americans call them "Standard" and "Metric."

That rings well with me. I didn't know what to call them so I called them
USA or SAE but "standard" makes more sense (and I think I've seen that on
boxes of wrench sets, for example).

So "inches" should be "Standard" and not "Imperial" is what that tells me,
but I did read the posts that say that the US adopted "imperial" inches but
not imperial gallons.

It's confusing nonetheless since almost nobody in the USA would call
anything Imperial (it's not a word we use for our weights and measures).

[Kieran Williams]

Peter T. Daniels scrit:

> You're mistaken. When we drove in Canada in the 1960s, we filled our car's
> gas tank in "imperial gallons," which are larger than US "customary
> measures." A British "pint" in a pub is larger than a US pint, etc.
>
> It may be that valve measurements didn't vary transatlantically, so
> "imperial" valves would measure the same as US valves. (Of course
> Over There a "valve" is a vacuum tube ...)

I remember "Imperial" gallons, from somewhere, which were different from
real gallons over here in the USA. I thought they were from Japan.

So this seems to back up my point which is that Imperial means nothing in
the United States since we don't have an Imperial System of weights and
measures.

We just happen to use good old inches and gallons.

But I guess people are saying that the inches we use are imperial but that
the gallons we use are NOT the imperial gallons.

At least that confuses me more...

[Kieran Williams]

Cheryl scrit:

> They probably inherited the name along with the measurement system from
> a place that was an empire.

I guess you're saying that the US was born out of the UK who was an
Imperialistic power a hundred years ago, but what is confusing to me is not
only that the UK uses a *different* system for nuts/bolts (they use metric,
don't they?) but worse, not a single person in the entire United States
would ever call the inch-system an "imperial" system.

So it's all very confusing because I think "UK" or "Japan" when I hear of
an "Imperial System", but not the USA (and nobody else uses the word
Imperial in the USA either, as far as I have ever heard in speech).

[Kieran Williams]

Whiskers scrit:

> Schrader valves were invented in America and are specified in metric
> measurements. I don't know why Wikipedia even bothers to mention the
> dimensions in inches. Americans do know about the metric system
> and have appropriate tools. I think most garage mechanics would pull
> out a damaged valve and shove in a new one rather than try to 'repair'
> the thread. In the case of a bicycle tyre, if the valve fitting is
> faulty fit a new inner-tube.

With a name like Schrader and with the complexity inside of one of those, I
would have guessed that a diabolical German engineer designed the thing!

The threads are "non standard" meaning that most tap and die sets don't
seem to have them.

Cleaning up threads is a typical task that is done for thousands of home
fasteners, so, it's a quick, inexpensive, and effective way to hone the
threads. That's why we all have tap and die sets in our toolboxes (everyone
I know, anyway).

But we don't have this particular whacko size. :(

As for replacing the valve, sure, we can do that too since we have tire
mounters in our back yards and there are literally thousands of redneck
solutions using good old American ingenuity for breaking the bead. There
are even hook-and-funnel solutions for replacing a TR418 valve in situ,
without even taking the wheel off the axle or even breaking the bead.

STill, cleaning up threads is quick, simple, and effective.
It just won't work for tire valves because the die is non standard.

[Kieran Williams]

Osmium scrit:

> Wiki is written by real people, not people who specialize in fussy details
> such as this.

But nobody uses the word "imperial" when describing "inches" in the USA.

[Richard Tobin]

In article <o29u50$b0m$1...@news.mixmin.net>,

Perhaps they aren't in the USA. Many people aren't.

-- Richard

[Richard Tobin]

In article <XnsA6D7B6F5...@178.63.61.145>,

HVS <off...@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk> wrote:
>On 07 Dec 2016, Richard Tobin wrote
>> In article <o29eo7$r9n$1...@gioia.aioe.org>,
>> Kieran Williams <KieranW...@plusnet.net> wrote:

>>> I've never once in my life heard a mechanic, for example, call his
>>> inch-based wrenches "imperial".

>> You probably live in America.

>Hmmm; doesn't look like it. (He has a plusnet email address, which AFAIK
>means he's UK-based.)

Confusingly, it appears that plusnet.net is unrelated to plus.net, and
elewhere he refers to himself as being in the US.

-- Richard

[HVS]

On Wed, 7 Dec 2016 21:18:25 +0000 (UTC), ric...@cogsci.ed.ac.uk
(Richard Tobin) wrote:
> HVS <off...@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk> wrote:
> >On 07 Dec 2016, Richard Tobin wrote

> >> You probably live in America.

> >Hmmm; doesn't look like it. (He has a plusnet email address,
which AFAIK
> >means he's UK-based.)

> Confusingly, it appears that plusnet.net is unrelated to plus.net,
and
> elewhere he refers to himself as being in the US.

Ah; thank you. That is a tad confusing.

--
--
Cheers, Harvey
CanE (30yrs) and BrE (34yrs), indiscriminately mixed

[Kieran Williams]

Richard Tobin scrit:

>>But nobody uses the word "imperial" when describing "inches" in the USA.
>
> Perhaps they aren't in the USA. Many people aren't.

Which is my point that Imperial is meaningless when talking about bolt
sizes (which, effectively, is what a tire valve is).

What they call "Imperial" is a mix, it seems, of "Imperial inches" for the
diameter and SAE threads.

It's SAE/Imperial at best.

[Richard Tobin]

In article <o29vho$1p4r$1...@gioia.aioe.org>,

Kieran Williams <KieranW...@plusnet.net> wrote:

>Which is my point that Imperial is meaningless when talking about bolt
>sizes (which, effectively, is what a tire valve is).
>
>What they call "Imperial" is a mix, it seems, of "Imperial inches" for the
>diameter and SAE threads.
>
>It's SAE/Imperial at best.

You're over-interpreting it. The article merely uses "Imperial" to
label the dimensions that are in inches rather than mm. "SAE" (which
I had to look up) seems irrelevant: it's a standard for threads and
"Imperial" is being used to label dimensions, not a standard.

-- Richard

[Whiskers]

On 2016-12-07, Kieran Williams <KieranW...@plusnet.net> wrote:

Well that's good old American ingenuity, making sure that your product
is (a) everywhere and (b) can't be fixed when it breaks. So everyone
has to buy your widget, over and over again. Schrader aren't the only
people to do that.

As for 'repairing' damaged screw threads, a tap or die cannot put back
the bits of metal that have been broken off; the best they can do is to
remove the bent remains that are jamming the action of the thread.
You'll be left with something that sort of works in that you can screw
it in and out, but it won't have as much strength as it did before - and
will be very likely to 'jam' again even if it doesn't just fall apart.

I don't want my tyres to rely on valves that have already gone wrong
once and been bodged to save a few pence.

[Whiskers]

On 2016-12-07, Kieran Williams <KieranW...@plusnet.net> wrote:

'Imperial' is certainly meaningless in terms of screw thread standards.
There are umpteen of them, some expressed in metric measurements and
some (many) in inches. UTS and BSW and BA are common threads defined in
terms of inches.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screw_thread#Other_current_standards>

[Whiskers]

On 2016-12-07, Kieran Williams <KieranW...@plusnet.net> wrote:

Even the inches weren't the same until 1959, according to Wikipedia:

The international inch is 1.7 millionths of an inch longer than the
old imperial inch, and 2 millionths of an inch shorter than the old US
inch.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inch#Modern_standardisation>

Fluid ounces, pints, and gallons, are still different.

[Whiskers]

On 2016-12-07, Kieran Williams <KieranW...@plusnet.net> wrote:

> Cheryl scrit:
>
>> They probably inherited the name along with the measurement system from
>> a place that was an empire.
>
> I guess you're saying that the US was born out of the UK who was an
> Imperialistic power a hundred years ago, but what is confusing to me is not
> only that the UK uses a *different* system for nuts/bolts (they use metric,
> don't they?) but worse, not a single person in the entire United States
> would ever call the inch-system an "imperial" system.

US weights and measures are US weights and measures. They have a choice
between 'US customary system' (USCS or USC), based on the systems the
17th century European colonists brought with them, and 'metric' Système
International (SI).

> So it's all very confusing because I think "UK" or "Japan" when I hear of
> an "Imperial System", but not the USA (and nobody else uses the word
> Imperial in the USA either, as far as I have ever heard in speech).

Perhaps Americans are afraid to recognise that they are an empire.

[Dingbat]

On Thursday, December 8, 2016 at 2:43:07 AM UTC+5:30, Kieran Williams wrote:
> I remember "Imperial" gallons, from somewhere, which were different from
> real gallons over here in the USA.
>

The UK too used your 'real gallon', just for wine. The US uses the UK wine gallon for everything:

https://sizes.com/units/gallon_english_wine.htm

For several hundred years the Excise collected duty on wine imports by the 231-cubic-inch gallon. Then in 1688 someone told the Commissioners of the Excise that a 224-cubic-inch gallon was the “true wine gallon.” The origins of the unit had been forgotten, but on looking into the matter, the Excise found that the custodian of all legal standards, the Exchequer, had a standard for a 272-cubic-inch gallon but none for one of 231 cubic inches.

Changing to a larger gallon would have caused a large drop in the King's revenues (since the tax was on the gallon), so the Commissioners carefully refrained from revising the standard. But the idea was out. In 1700, a canny wine importer who was sued by the government for underpayment of import duty argued in his defense that there was no legal definition for the gallon the customs agents were using. The Crown had to forfeit the case. In 1706 the government remedied the matter by legalizing the 231-cubic-inch wine gallon.¹

[Robert Bannister]

On 8/12/16 1:00 am, Cheryl wrote:

> On 2016-12-07 1:22 PM, Kieran Williams wrote:
>> I've never once in my life heard a mechanic, for example, call his
>> inch-based wrenches "imperial".
>>

>> Yesterday, I was looking for a tap to repair my threads on a tire
>> valve and
>> found that the Wikipedia for Schrader valves has "metric" and "imperial"
>> sizes.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schrader_valve
>> [quote]
>> Metric: 7.7 mm OD, thread root diameter is 6.9 mm ? 0.794 mm pitch
>> Imperial: 0.305 in OD, thread root diameter 0.271 in ? 32 tpi
>> [/quote]
>>
>> I realize Imperial "means" USA but why not just say USA (or SAE)?
>>
>> The US isn't "imperial" as in "Imperial Japan", nor is it imperial as in
>> "The UK", so, why call it Imperial when it's really just USA inches?
>>
>> What's the rationale for such a confusing descriptin?
>>

> They probably inherited the name along with the measurement system from
> a place that was an empire.
>

But surely once they'd changed the size of the measures, they were no
longer imperial.
--
Robert B. born England a long time ago;
Western Australia since 1972

[Robert Bannister]

On 8/12/16 1:13 am, Richard Tobin wrote:
> In article <o29eo7$r9n$1...@gioia.aioe.org>,

> Kieran Williams <KieranW...@plusnet.net> wrote:
>
>> I've never once in my life heard a mechanic, for example, call his
>> inch-based wrenches "imperial".
>

> You probably live in America.
>

>> Yesterday, I was looking for a tap to repair my threads on a tire valve and
>> found that the Wikipedia for Schrader valves has "metric" and "imperial"
>> sizes.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schrader_valve
>> [quote]
>> Metric: 7.7 mm OD, thread root diameter is 6.9 mm ? 0.794 mm pitch
>> Imperial: 0.305 in OD, thread root diameter 0.271 in ? 32 tpi
>> [/quote]
>>
>> I realize Imperial "means" USA but why not just say USA (or SAE)?
>

> "Imperial" doesn't mean USA. We still often use inches etc in
> Britain, and the old units are often referred to as "Imperial",
> as that's what they once were.

>
>> The US isn't "imperial" as in "Imperial Japan", nor is it imperial as in
>> "The UK", so, why call it Imperial when it's really just USA inches?
>

> They're inches, not "USA inches".

>
>> What's the rationale for such a confusing descriptin?
>

> It's not confusing for British readers.

Surely US ounces, pints, gallons and any other measures that have the
same name but different sizes would be confusing to British readers.


You seem to want Wikipedia to
> be written in American English, but they have a different policy on
> the subject.
>
> -- Richard

[Robert Bannister]

Possibly because they don't know there are countries outside the USA?

[Robert Bannister]

I have to confess I thought it was Standard American something-or-other.
I was quite surprised when I looked it up.

[Charles Bishop]

In article <o29eo7$r9n$1...@gioia.aioe.org>,

Kieran Williams <KieranW...@plusnet.net> wrote:

> I've never once in my life heard a mechanic, for example, call his
> inch-based wrenches "imperial".
>

> Yesterday, I was looking for a tap to repair my threads on a tire valve and
> found that the Wikipedia for Schrader valves has "metric" and "imperial"
> sizes.

Surely, a die and not a tap?


--
charles

[Kieran Williams]

Charles Bishop scrit:

> Surely, a die and not a tap?

Oops.

Tap and tonnes I keep getting mixed up with die and tons!

[Peter Moylan]

On 2016-Dec-08 08:13, Kieran Williams wrote:
> Peter T. Daniels scrit:
>
>> You're mistaken. When we drove in Canada in the 1960s, we filled our car's
>> gas tank in "imperial gallons," which are larger than US "customary
>> measures." A British "pint" in a pub is larger than a US pint, etc.
>>
>> It may be that valve measurements didn't vary transatlantically, so
>> "imperial" valves would measure the same as US valves. (Of course
>> Over There a "valve" is a vacuum tube ...)
>
> I remember "Imperial" gallons, from somewhere, which were different from
> real gallons over here in the USA. I thought they were from Japan.
>
> So this seems to back up my point which is that Imperial means nothing in
> the United States since we don't have an Imperial System of weights and
> measures.

There is nothing in that page you cite that suggests that it is using US
measurements. In fact the word "Imperial" implies pretty clearly that it
is using Imperial units and not US units. You were led astray by your
assumption that the article was written by an American.

Google can do this sort of conversion for you. For example, type in the
search field
5 imperial gallons in US gallons.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia

[Jerry Friedman]

On 12/7/16 12:01 PM, Steve Hayes wrote:

> On Wed, 07 Dec 2016 16:52:24 +0000, Kieran Williams wrote:
>
>>
>> I realize Imperial "means" USA but why not just say USA (or SAE)?
>

> "Imperial" doesn't necessarily mean USA.

>
>> The US isn't "imperial" as in "Imperial Japan", nor is it imperial as in
>> "The UK", so, why call it Imperial when it's really just USA inches?
>>

>> What's the rationale for such a confusing descriptin?
>

> When it comes to measurements, "Imperial" does not mean the same as "USA".
>
> An Imperial gallon is bigger than a US gallon, and an Imperial pint is
> bigger than a US pint.
>
> Where threads are concerned, there is (or used to be) British Standard
> Whitworth, which was different from American threads.

>
> We bought a British car in 1956 (a Wolseley 4/44) which came with
> American threads and nuts and bolts that needed American sized spanners,
> which were different from Whitworth spanners, which were again different
> from Metric, so mechanics had to have three different sets of spanners in
> their toolboxes.
>
> Now most of them just have metric.

A colleague told me last week that he has a lathe made in 1947 in France
that has, among other things, settings for Whitworth screw threads. He
uses it when he's working on people's old British motorcycles. I guess
there are a few around here.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Jerry Friedman]

On 12/7/16 2:15 PM, Kieran Williams wrote:
> Whiskers scrit:
>
>> Schrader valves were invented in America and are specified in metric
>> measurements. I don't know why Wikipedia even bothers to mention the
>> dimensions in inches. Americans do know about the metric system
>> and have appropriate tools. I think most garage mechanics would pull
>> out a damaged valve and shove in a new one rather than try to 'repair'
>> the thread. In the case of a bicycle tyre, if the valve fitting is
>> faulty fit a new inner-tube.
>
> With a name like Schrader and with the complexity inside of one of those, I
> would have guessed that a diabolical German engineer designed the thing!
>
> The threads are "non standard" meaning that most tap and die sets don't
> seem to have them.
>
> Cleaning up threads is a typical task that is done for thousands of home
> fasteners, so, it's a quick, inexpensive, and effective way to hone the
> threads. That's why we all have tap and die sets in our toolboxes (everyone
> I know, anyway).

...

But not everyone.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Pierre Jelenc]

In article <earsq2...@mid.individual.net>,

Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:
>
>Surely US ounces, pints, gallons and any other measures that have the
>same name but different sizes would be confusing to British readers.

Fluid ounces are hardly different so it doesn't matter for practical
purposes, but if you buy beer in a US bar you can ask for a US pint
(usually the default) or an imperial pint. And if you're a home brewer,
you better make sure you know whether your recipe is for 5 US gallons or 5
imperial gallons!

Pierre
--
Pierre Jelenc
The Gigometer www.gigometer.com
The NYC Beer Guide www.nycbeer.org

[Garrett Wollman]

In article <o29eo7$r9n$1...@gioia.aioe.org>,
Kieran Williams <KieranW...@plusnet.net> wrote:

>The US isn't "imperial" as in "Imperial Japan", nor is it imperial as in
>"The UK", so, why call it Imperial when it's really just USA inches?

It's an error, albeit a common one.

The correct name is "U.S. customary [system of units]". The Imperial
system was never used in the United States, having been adopted about
32 years after the Declaration of Independence and 25 years after the
Treaty of Paris 1783. That's why there are two different kinds of
pint in the U.S. and only one (Imperial) in a British pub.

In the case of the inch, it was agreed by both the U.S. and UK
governments more than a century ago that the inch would be defined as
exactly 25.4 mm -- this replaced earlier definitions which differed
between the two countries. (In the U.S., a "survey foot" is still
defined to be 1200/3937 m; the difference starts to matter over
distances of hundreds of miles.)

SAE International (formerly the Society of Automotive Engineers) has
nothing to do with this.

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft
wol...@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program
Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption
my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993

[Tony Cooper]

On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 05:39:20 +0000 (UTC), rc...@panix.com (Pierre
Jelenc) wrote:

>In article <earsq2...@mid.individual.net>,
>Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:
>>
>>Surely US ounces, pints, gallons and any other measures that have the
>>same name but different sizes would be confusing to British readers.
>
>Fluid ounces are hardly different so it doesn't matter for practical
>purposes, but if you buy beer in a US bar you can ask for a US pint
>(usually the default) or an imperial pint. And if you're a home brewer,
>you better make sure you know whether your recipe is for 5 US gallons or 5
>imperial gallons!
>

It's been a while since I've been in US bar, but it's my feeling that
Americans order a "draft" where a Brit would order a "pint".

There's no rule or custom that I know about that determines how much
beer there is in a glass when a "draft" is ordered. I've ordered a
draft and received several different shapes and sizes of glass and a
few tankards and mugs. It seems to be the bar's choice.

The different styles are shown here:
http://www.beerwrangler.com/the-beer-glass-guide/

I frequently go to biker bars because I like to photograph bikers.
(Biker = motorcycle rider) Beer in these places is usually served in
a red plastic cup or an aluminum bottle...just in case a riot and an
ruption breaks out.

I went to one Sunday, and this lady was just pulling into the parking
area. She must have been all of 4'8". (Under 1.5 m)

https://photos.smugmug.com/Current/i-XFCK9QR/0/XL/2016-12-04-78-XL.jpg

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

[Garrett Wollman]

In article <o2aupk$2vac$1...@grapevine.csail.mit.edu>, I wrote:

>The correct name is "U.S. customary [system of units]". The Imperial
>system was never used in the United States, having been adopted about
>32 years after the Declaration of Independence and 25 years after the
>Treaty of Paris 1783.

Whoops! I had the 1824 act establishing Imperial measure confused
with something else, apparently, that made me with 1808. (What
happened in 1808? Union with Ireland Act?)

[Dingbat]

On Thursday, December 8, 2016 at 12:02:23 PM UTC+5:30, Garrett Wollman wrote:
>
> The correct name is "U.S. customary [system of units]". The Imperial
> system was never used in the United States, having been adopted about
> 32 years after the Declaration of Independence and 25 years after the
> Treaty of Paris 1783. That's why there are two different kinds of
> pint in the U.S. and only one (Imperial) in a British pub.
>

What is the pint other than 473 ml, in the US?
In Quebec, 'une pinte' means 'one Imperial quart'!

[Richard Heathfield]

On 08/12/16 01:59, Robert Bannister wrote:
> On 8/12/16 5:15 am, Kieran Williams wrote:
>> Osmium scrit:
>>
>>> Wiki is written by real people, not people who specialize in fussy
>>> details
>>> such as this.
>>
>> But nobody uses the word "imperial" when describing "inches" in the USA.
>>
> Possibly because they don't know there are countries outside the USA?

Don't be ridiculous. If what you're saying were true, these "other
countries" would be invited to take part in the World Series. And they
aren't, so there aren't any such countries. QED.

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

[charles]

In article <o29eo7$r9n$1...@gioia.aioe.org>,
Kieran Williams <KieranW...@plusnet.net> wrote:

> I've never once in my life heard a mechanic, for example, call his
> inch-based wrenches "imperial".

> Yesterday, I was looking for a tap to repair my threads on a tire valve
> and found that the Wikipedia for Schrader valves has "metric" and
> "imperial" sizes.

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schrader_valve
> [quote]
> Metric: 7.7 mm OD, thread root diameter is 6.9 mm ? 0.794 mm pitch
> Imperial: 0.305 in OD, thread root diameter 0.271 in ? 32 tpi
> [/quote]

> I realize Imperial "means" USA but why not just say USA (or SAE)?

Imperial meant "British". British Empire

> The US isn't "imperial" as in "Imperial Japan", nor is it imperial as in
> "The UK", so, why call it Imperial when it's really just USA inches?

> What's the rationale for such a confusing descriptin?

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

[charles]

In article <7fe304e4-dfe1-4e76...@googlegroups.com>, Peter
T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 7, 2016 at 11:52:29 AM UTC-5, Kieran Williams

> wrote:

> > I've never once in my life heard a mechanic, for example, call his
> > inch-based wrenches "imperial".
> >
> > Yesterday, I was looking for a tap to repair my threads on a tire valve
> > and found that the Wikipedia for Schrader valves has "metric" and
> > "imperial" sizes.
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schrader_valve [quote] Metric: 7.7 mm OD,
> > thread root diameter is 6.9 mm ? 0.794 mm pitch Imperial: 0.305 in OD,
> > thread root diameter 0.271 in ? 32 tpi [/quote]
> >
> > I realize Imperial "means" USA but why not just say USA (or SAE)?
> >

> > The US isn't "imperial" as in "Imperial Japan", nor is it imperial as
> > in "The UK", so, why call it Imperial when it's really just USA inches?
> >
> > What's the rationale for such a confusing descriptin?

> You're mistaken. When we drove in Canada in the 1960s, we filled our
> car's gas tank in "imperial gallons," which are larger than US
> "customary measures." A British "pint" in a pub is larger than a US
> pint, etc.

> It may be that valve measurements didn't vary transatlantically, so
> "imperial" valves would measure the same as US valves. (Of course Over
> There a "valve" is a vacuum tube ...)

That's just one of its meanings. A valve is basically a oneway device.
Vacuum tubes fit in that definition.

[Dingbat]

... unless it's a bivalve:-)

[Dingbat]

On Thursday, December 8, 2016 at 1:21:41 PM UTC+5:30, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> On 08/12/16 01:59, Robert Bannister wrote:
> > On 8/12/16 5:15 am, Kieran Williams wrote:
> >> Osmium scrit:
> >>
> >>> Wiki is written by real people, not people who specialize in fussy
> >>> details
> >>> such as this.
> >>
> >> But nobody uses the word "imperial" when describing "inches" in the USA.
> >>
> > Possibly because they don't know there are countries outside the USA?
>
> Don't be ridiculous. If what you're saying were true, these "other
> countries" would be invited to take part in the World Series. And they
> aren't, so there aren't any such countries. QED.
>

It's a small world ...




that the series are played in.

[Dingbat]

On Thursday, December 8, 2016 at 7:24:13 AM UTC+5:30, Robert Bannister wrote:
> On 8/12/16 1:13 am, Richard Tobin wrote:
>
> Surely US ounces, pints, gallons and any other measures that have the
> same name but different sizes would be confusing to British readers.
>

Australians measure beer in schooners* (425 ml).

That raises the question:

How many schooners make a galleon?


* schooners and more in this Smithsonian Mag article:
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/pints-liters-pots-and-schooners-beer-size-matters-28912334/

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

I thought it was "stamped addressed envelope", but that didn't seem to
fit the context.


--
athel

[Richard Heathfield]

Are you saying it's /not/ "Southern Arab Emirates"?

[Katy Jennison]

On 08/12/2016 06:33, Tony Cooper wrote:

> I frequently go to biker bars because I like to photograph bikers.
> (Biker = motorcycle rider) Beer in these places is usually served in
> a red plastic cup or an aluminum bottle...just in case a riot and an
> ruption breaks out.
>
> I went to one Sunday, and this lady was just pulling into the parking
> area. She must have been all of 4'8". (Under 1.5 m)
>
> https://photos.smugmug.com/Current/i-XFCK9QR/0/XL/2016-12-04-78-XL.jpg

Love it!

--
Katy Jennison

[Peter Moylan]

On 2016-Dec-08 19:51, Dingbat wrote:
> On Thursday, December 8, 2016 at 7:24:13 AM UTC+5:30, Robert Bannister wrote:
>> On 8/12/16 1:13 am, Richard Tobin wrote:
>>
>> Surely US ounces, pints, gallons and any other measures that have the
>> same name but different sizes would be confusing to British readers.
>>
> Australians measure beer in schooners* (425 ml).

Some Australians. It varies by state. You also need to know about
middies, pots, ponies, and a few other words.

> That raises the question:
>
> How many schooners make a galleon?

And some Australians prefer to scull their beer.

(From Scandinavian skoal, skol, skaal, etc.)

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

+1

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Thu, 08 Dec 2016 07:42:31 +0000 (GMT), charles
<cha...@candehope.me.uk> wrote:

>In article <o29eo7$r9n$1...@gioia.aioe.org>,
> Kieran Williams <KieranW...@plusnet.net> wrote:
>> I've never once in my life heard a mechanic, for example, call his
>> inch-based wrenches "imperial".
>
>> Yesterday, I was looking for a tap to repair my threads on a tire valve
>> and found that the Wikipedia for Schrader valves has "metric" and
>> "imperial" sizes.
>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schrader_valve
>> [quote]
>> Metric: 7.7 mm OD, thread root diameter is 6.9 mm ? 0.794 mm pitch
>> Imperial: 0.305 in OD, thread root diameter 0.271 in ? 32 tpi
>> [/quote]
>
>> I realize Imperial "means" USA but why not just say USA (or SAE)?
>
>Imperial meant "British". British Empire

Yes.

Imperial Weights and Measures was a system of weights and measures that
were standard throughout the British Empire.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weights_and_Measures_Acts_(UK)#Weights_and_Measures_Act_of_1824>

Weights and Measures Act of 1824 or 5 Geo. IV c. 74[72]

An Act for ascertaining and establishing Uniformity of Weights
and Measures.

This is the origin of Imperial units. This statute repeals
nearly all previous weights and measures legislation, listing
them in chronological order (by regnal year but without dates)
beginning with "ancient statutes of uncertain date."

>> The US isn't "imperial" as in "Imperial Japan", nor is it imperial as in
>> "The UK", so, why call it Imperial when it's really just USA inches?
>
>> What's the rationale for such a confusing descriptin?

--

[CDB]

On 12/7/2016 4:18 PM, Richard Tobin wrote:
> HVS <off...@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk> wrote:
>> Richard Tobin wrote

>>> Kieran Williams <KieranW...@plusnet.net> wrote:

>>>> I've never once in my life heard a mechanic, for example, call
>>>> his inch-based wrenches "imperial".

>>> You probably live in America.

>> Hmmm; doesn't look like it. (He has a plusnet email address, which
>> AFAIK means he's UK-based.)

> Confusingly, it appears that plusnet.net is unrelated to plus.net,
> and elewhere he refers to himself as being in the US.

I believe we know him under another name.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Or several? Presumably you mean "Henry Algae" rather than "T.G."?

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

That seems plausible. Maybe rather a sharp name, or perhaps a tough one.


--
athel

[occam]

On 07/12/2016 18:00, Cheryl wrote:

> On 2016-12-07 1:22 PM, Kieran Williams wrote:
>> I've never once in my life heard a mechanic, for example, call his
>> inch-based wrenches "imperial".
>>

>> Yesterday, I was looking for a tap to repair my threads on a tire
>> valve and
>> found that the Wikipedia for Schrader valves has "metric" and "imperial"
>> sizes.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schrader_valve
>> [quote]
>> Metric: 7.7 mm OD, thread root diameter is 6.9 mm ? 0.794 mm pitch
>> Imperial: 0.305 in OD, thread root diameter 0.271 in ? 32 tpi
>> [/quote]
>>
>> I realize Imperial "means" USA but why not just say USA (or SAE)?
>>

>> The US isn't "imperial" as in "Imperial Japan", nor is it imperial as in
>> "The UK", so, why call it Imperial when it's really just USA inches?
>>
>> What's the rationale for such a confusing descriptin?
>>

> They probably inherited the name along with the measurement system from
> a place that was an empire.
>

... before it [Empire] went to the dark side and adopted the European
metric system :-) ? Yes, 'Imperial' refers to the foot-pound-gallon
system of measurements the British established a long time ago in an
Empire far, far away.

[Tony Cooper]

Whathisname RH will think I'm missing the point or being disingenuous,
but when I was a kid reading comic books I was greatly puzzled by
instructions to send a "SSAE" with a dime or quarter to receive what
was being advertised. It was years before I realized that was a
"stamped, self-addressed envelope".

[Richard Heathfield]

FTR no, I don't think you're being disingenuous, and yes, I had much the
same problem. (I also puzzled over E&OE for far too long.)

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

"far, far away" depends on your location. Britain was as much part of
the Empire as the other territories.

[occam]

'far' in the sense of 'space-time'?

[Richard Heathfield]

On 08/12/16 15:57, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
> On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 16:28:05 +0100, occam <oc...@127.0.0.1> wrote:
>

<snip>

>> ... before it [Empire] went to the dark side and adopted the European
>> metric system :-) ? Yes, 'Imperial' refers to the foot-pound-gallon
>> system of measurements the British established a long time ago in an
>> Empire far, far away.
>
> "far, far away" depends on your location. Britain was as much part of
> the Empire as the other territories.

In fact it was rather difficult (a long time ago) to get far, far away
from the British Empire. Just before the outbreak of WW1 the British
Empire ruled over about a quarter of the world's land area and population.

[bill van]

In article <hsth4cpdcg27kfui5...@4ax.com>,

Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 05:39:20 +0000 (UTC), rc...@panix.com (Pierre
> Jelenc) wrote:
>
> >In article <earsq2...@mid.individual.net>,
> >Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>Surely US ounces, pints, gallons and any other measures that have the
> >>same name but different sizes would be confusing to British readers.
> >
> >Fluid ounces are hardly different so it doesn't matter for practical
> >purposes, but if you buy beer in a US bar you can ask for a US pint
> >(usually the default) or an imperial pint. And if you're a home brewer,
> >you better make sure you know whether your recipe is for 5 US gallons or 5
> >imperial gallons!
>
> It's been a while since I've been in US bar, but it's my feeling that
> Americans order a "draft" where a Brit would order a "pint".

In my English, draft (or draught) beer is tapped from a keg rather than
being served in bottles. The term does not say anything about the
quantity served.

>
> There's no rule or custom that I know about that determines how much
> beer there is in a glass when a "draft" is ordered. I've ordered a
> draft and received several different shapes and sizes of glass and a
> few tankards and mugs. It seems to be the bar's choice.

When I last drank beer in bars, you could order a pint or a half-pint of
draft beer; the latter was sometimes called a glass. But there wasn't,
and still isn't, I think, a dependable standard. I recall a colleague
who managed to get himself assigned to a story testing how much beer you
would get if you ordered a pint in various bars. There was considerable
variance.
--
bill

[Tony Cooper]

On Thu, 08 Dec 2016 09:32:37 -0800, bill van <bil...@delete.shaw.ca>
wrote:

>In article <hsth4cpdcg27kfui5...@4ax.com>,
> Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 05:39:20 +0000 (UTC), rc...@panix.com (Pierre
>> Jelenc) wrote:
>>
>> >In article <earsq2...@mid.individual.net>,
>> >Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>Surely US ounces, pints, gallons and any other measures that have the
>> >>same name but different sizes would be confusing to British readers.
>> >
>> >Fluid ounces are hardly different so it doesn't matter for practical
>> >purposes, but if you buy beer in a US bar you can ask for a US pint
>> >(usually the default) or an imperial pint. And if you're a home brewer,
>> >you better make sure you know whether your recipe is for 5 US gallons or 5
>> >imperial gallons!
>>
>> It's been a while since I've been in US bar, but it's my feeling that
>> Americans order a "draft" where a Brit would order a "pint".
>
>In my English, draft (or draught) beer is tapped from a keg rather than
>being served in bottles. The term does not say anything about the
>quantity served.

Exactly. When you order a (brand name) draft beer in the US you are
ordering a glass of that beer, but there's no rule or even custom of
the size of that glass or the quantity of beer you will receive.

If you order a "pint" in a US bar, you'll get a glass of beer that may
or may not contain a pint by any measure. The bartender will
translate that to "glass of beer" and provide you with whatever size
and style of glass the bar normally serves.

If I'm not mistaken, a "pint" of beer in the UK will contain an actual
pint of beer.

>> There's no rule or custom that I know about that determines how much
>> beer there is in a glass when a "draft" is ordered. I've ordered a
>> draft and received several different shapes and sizes of glass and a
>> few tankards and mugs. It seems to be the bar's choice.
>
>When I last drank beer in bars, you could order a pint or a half-pint of
>draft beer; the latter was sometimes called a glass. But there wasn't,
>and still isn't, I think, a dependable standard. I recall a colleague
>who managed to get himself assigned to a story testing how much beer you
>would get if you ordered a pint in various bars. There was considerable
>variance.
--

[Richard Tobin]

In article <3a7j4c1csrtm5f7mb...@4ax.com>,

Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:

>If I'm not mistaken, a "pint" of beer in the UK will contain an actual
>pint of beer.

The British Beer and Pub Association have somehow managed to get a
"guideline" accepted that a pint should be at least 95% of a pint.

-- Richard

[David Kleinecke]

After all.

[Paul Wolff]

On Thu, 8 Dec 2016, Richard Heathfield <r...@cpax.org.uk> posted:

>On 08/12/16 09:09, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> On 2016-12-08 02:01:49 +0000, Robert Bannister said:
>>
>>> On 8/12/16 5:50 am, Richard Tobin wrote:
>>>> In article <o29vho$1p4r$1...@gioia.aioe.org>,
>>>> Kieran Williams <KieranW...@plusnet.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Which is my point that Imperial is meaningless when talking about bolt
>>>>> sizes (which, effectively, is what a tire valve is).
>>>>>
>>>>> What they call "Imperial" is a mix, it seems, of "Imperial inches"
>>>>> for the
>>>>> diameter and SAE threads.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's SAE/Imperial at best.
>>>>
>>>> You're over-interpreting it. The article merely uses "Imperial" to
>>>> label the dimensions that are in inches rather than mm. "SAE" (which
>>>> I had to look up) seems irrelevant: it's a standard for threads and
>>>> "Imperial" is being used to label dimensions, not a standard.
>>>
>>> I have to confess I thought it was Standard American
>>> something-or-other. I was quite surprised when I looked it up.
>>
>> I thought it was "stamped addressed envelope", but that didn't seem to
>> fit the context.
>
>Are you saying it's /not/ "Southern Arab Emirates"?
>

Well, well, well. It's what they measure oil thickness by, so could
be...
--
Paul

[Garrett Wollman]

In article <92f059f0-233b-45b5...@googlegroups.com>,
Dingbat <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On Thursday, December 8, 2016 at 12:02:23 PM UTC+5:30, Garrett Wollman wrote:
>>
>> The correct name is "U.S. customary [system of units]". The Imperial
>> system was never used in the United States, having been adopted about
>> 32 years after the Declaration of Independence and 25 years after the
>> Treaty of Paris 1783. That's why there are two different kinds of
>> pint in the U.S. and only one (Imperial) in a British pub.
>>
>What is the pint other than 473 ml, in the US?

The dry pint is 551 mL.

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft
wol...@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program
Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption
my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993

[J. J. Lodder]

Kieran Williams <KieranW...@plusnet.net> wrote:

> I've never once in my life heard a mechanic, for example, call his
> inch-based wrenches "imperial".
>
> Yesterday, I was looking for a tap to repair my threads on a tire valve and
> found that the Wikipedia for Schrader valves has "metric" and "imperial"
> sizes.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schrader_valve
> [quote]
> Metric: 7.7 mm OD, thread root diameter is 6.9 mm ? 0.794 mm pitch
> Imperial: 0.305 in OD, thread root diameter 0.271 in ? 32 tpi
> [/quote]

It's the same, just converting units.
(25.4/32 = 0.79375 mm)

> I realize Imperial "means" USA but why not just say USA (or SAE)?
>
> The US isn't "imperial" as in "Imperial Japan", nor is it imperial as in
> "The UK", so, why call it Imperial when it's really just USA inches?
>
> What's the rationale for such a confusing descriptin?

Of course the USA is imperial.
They are nowadays the true heirs of Julius Caesar,
and he is what 'imperial' refers to,
(nothing British to it)

It is just that they don't want to know it,

Jan

[J. J. Lodder]

Whiskers <catwh...@operamail.com> wrote:

> On 2016-12-07, Kieran Williams <KieranW...@plusnet.net> wrote:
> > Peter T. Daniels scrit:
> >
> >> You're mistaken. When we drove in Canada in the 1960s, we filled our car's
> >> gas tank in "imperial gallons," which are larger than US "customary
> >> measures." A British "pint" in a pub is larger than a US pint, etc.

> >>
> >> It may be that valve measurements didn't vary transatlantically, so
> >> "imperial" valves would measure the same as US valves. (Of course
> >> Over There a "valve" is a vacuum tube ...)
> >

> > I remember "Imperial" gallons, from somewhere, which were different from
> > real gallons over here in the USA. I thought they were from Japan.
> >
> > So this seems to back up my point which is that Imperial means nothing in
> > the United States since we don't have an Imperial System of weights and
> > measures.
> >
> > We just happen to use good old inches and gallons.
> >
> > But I guess people are saying that the inches we use are imperial but that
> > the gallons we use are NOT the imperial gallons.
> >
> > At least that confuses me more...
>
> Even the inches weren't the same until 1959, according to Wikipedia:
>
> The international inch is 1.7 millionths of an inch longer than the
> old imperial inch, and 2 millionths of an inch shorter than the old US
> inch.

Both were replaced by the 'metric inch' of 25.4 mm (exactly)

The only remaining truly American unit is the US survey foot,
which is still 12 old US inches.

Converting all the old data was thought to be too much work,

Jan

[Mark Brader]

Tony Cooper:

> Whathisname RH will think I'm missing the point or being disingenuous,
> but when I was a kid reading comic books I was greatly puzzled by
> instructions to send a "SSAE" with a dime or quarter to receive what
> was being advertised. It was years before I realized that was a
> "stamped, self-addressed envelope".

That would surprise me too. The phrase I know for it is
"self-addressed, stamped envelope" (with or without a comma) or SASE.

Of course, this method only works within a country. If the person
expecting the SASE is in another country, the best you can do is to
obtain and send an International Reply Coupon, which they can use
to buy stamps. The markup on IRCs is large and I've never actually
had occasion to do this.

Which in turn reminds me that when Charles Ponzi set up his eponymous
swindle in the 1920s, the way he *pretended* he was making millions
for his clients was by arbitraging IRCs -- even though the total
value of of all IRCs in circulation at the time was far less than that.


ObTWIAVBP: "Stamped envelopes". Of course an SASE would normally be
an ordinary envelope that you addressed and put a stamp on. But here
you can also go to the post office and buy a single "stamped envelope"
-- it's handy if you have something to mail, you already have a supply
of envelopes somewhere else and don't need any more, but you don't
have one with you.

This is something you basically have to know about; I've never seen
any sort of publicity for it. The last time I actually bought one
was sometime in the last year or so, and I was a bit surprised that
they were still available. It must've been more than 15 years since
the previous time I'd asked for one.

I think that years ago it may just have been an ordinary envelope
with a postage stamp already stuck on it, but these days it'd be
pre-printed with a stamp-like design. Here's one from some years
ago when the domestic postage rate was 30 cents:

http://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/usedphotosna/40598841_614.jpg

--
Mark Brader "They're trying to invent a new crime:
Toronto interference with a business model."
m...@vex.net --Bruce Schneier

My text in this article is in the public domain.

[Tony Cooper]

On Thu, 08 Dec 2016 16:02:03 -0600, m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:

>Tony Cooper:
>> Whathisname RH will think I'm missing the point or being disingenuous,
>> but when I was a kid reading comic books I was greatly puzzled by
>> instructions to send a "SSAE" with a dime or quarter to receive what
>> was being advertised. It was years before I realized that was a
>> "stamped, self-addressed envelope".
>
>That would surprise me too. The phrase I know for it is
>"self-addressed, stamped envelope" (with or without a comma) or SASE.

It may have been SASE and not SSAE. Your memory of comic book ads may
be better than mine.

[Richard Heathfield]

In the UK, SAE and SSAE were common, and I don't recall ever seeing
SASE. Crossponditis strikes again?

[John Varela]

On Wed, 7 Dec 2016 16:52:24 UTC, Kieran Williams

<KieranW...@plusnet.net> wrote:

> I've never once in my life heard a mechanic, for example, call his
> inch-based wrenches "imperial".
>
> Yesterday, I was looking for a tap to repair my threads on a tire valve and
> found that the Wikipedia for Schrader valves has "metric" and "imperial"
> sizes.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schrader_valve
> [quote]
> Metric: 7.7 mm OD, thread root diameter is 6.9 mm ? 0.794 mm pitch
> Imperial: 0.305 in OD, thread root diameter 0.271 in ? 32 tpi
> [/quote]
>

> I realize Imperial "means" USA but why not just say USA (or SAE)?
>
> The US isn't "imperial" as in "Imperial Japan", nor is it imperial as in
> "The UK", so, why call it Imperial when it's really just USA inches?
>
> What's the rationale for such a confusing descriptin?

Never heard of "Imperial" threads. A wikiP search on "Imperial screw
thread" suggests that it's the same thing as Whitworth. The
application to tire valves may just be a holdover.

--
John Varela

[John Varela]

A typical US pint glass holds exactly a pint if filled to the rim.
If there's any head on the beer then there will be something less
than a pint of actual beer. That may be what the 5% allowance is
about.

--
John Varela

[Peter Moylan]

I must be getting slow, because that hadn't occurred to me. I thought it
was just another clueless newbie.

[Peter Moylan]

On 2016-Dec-09 02:30, Tony Cooper wrote:

> Whathisname RH will think I'm missing the point or being disingenuous,
> but when I was a kid reading comic books I was greatly puzzled by
> instructions to send a "SSAE" with a dime or quarter to receive what
> was being advertised. It was years before I realized that was a
> "stamped, self-addressed envelope".

When I worked for the Post Office, many years ago, it was not unusual to
get a customer wanting to buy a self-addressed envelope.

[Harvey]

On 8 Dec 2016 23:43:39 GMT, "John Varela" <newl...@verizon.net>
wrote:

(I assume you meant a "typical UK pint glass"?)

The rationale behind that is that different parts of the country
prefer higher or lower heads on their beer.

I think CAMRA has long lobbied for outlawing rim-level pint glasses
in favour of glasses with a pint level marked on them, which would
leave regional preferences to be accommodated without impinging on
the full pint measure,.

Predictably, that's been resisted by the pub-owning companies; I
wonder why...

--
Cheers, Harvey
CanE (30 years) & BrE (34 years), indiscriminately mixed

[Robert Bannister]

On 8/12/16 4:51 pm, Dingbat wrote:
> On Thursday, December 8, 2016 at 7:24:13 AM UTC+5:30, Robert Bannister wrote:

>> On 8/12/16 1:13 am, Richard Tobin wrote:
>>
>> Surely US ounces, pints, gallons and any other measures that have the
>> same name but different sizes would be confusing to British readers.
>>

> Australians measure beer in schooners* (425 ml).

Everything's changed. Most people, at least here in Perth, drink pints
now - proper imperial pints, although you do have be careful. I've have
been offered anything form 520-560 ml instead of the proper 568 ml. Our
schooners in the west always were full pints anyway, although not many
pubs had the glasses in the old days, and because of blow-ins from the
east, there was often confusion between schooners and pots.

West Australian beer measures:
schooner/pint 20 fl oz (568 ml)
pot 15 fl oz (425 ml)
middy 10 fl oz (284 ml)
glass 7 fl oz (199 ml)
pony 5 fl oz (142 ml)

Of these, I think only the pint and the middy glasses are stocked in
most pubs today.


--
Robert B. born England a long time ago;
Western Australia since 1972

[Garrett Wollman]

In article <UrKdnczrbZfGRdTF...@giganews.com>,

Mark Brader <m...@vex.net> wrote:

>Of course, this method only works within a country. If the person
>expecting the SASE is in another country, the best you can do is to
>obtain and send an International Reply Coupon, which they can use
>to buy stamps. The markup on IRCs is large and I've never actually
>had occasion to do this.

Long-distance (DX) shortwave listeners (SWLs) would write to stations
requesting a letter confirming their reception. Courteous ones would
include an IRC. I believe hams do or did the same thing. The
response often comes back in the form of a "QSL card"; "QSL" here is
an old telegraph code adopted by international agreement to mean a
request for reception verification or the corresponding response --
see <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_code>. Domestic broadcast
stations typically did not have cards but in some cases might send
bacl a letter.

[Tony Cooper]

On Fri, 9 Dec 2016 05:08:40 +0000 (UTC), wol...@bimajority.org
(Garrett Wollman) wrote:

>In article <UrKdnczrbZfGRdTF...@giganews.com>,
>Mark Brader <m...@vex.net> wrote:
>
>>Of course, this method only works within a country. If the person
>>expecting the SASE is in another country, the best you can do is to
>>obtain and send an International Reply Coupon, which they can use
>>to buy stamps. The markup on IRCs is large and I've never actually
>>had occasion to do this.
>
>Long-distance (DX) shortwave listeners (SWLs) would write to stations
>requesting a letter confirming their reception. Courteous ones would
>include an IRC. I believe hams do or did the same thing.

When I was growing up, a ham operator lived across the street from us.
The walls in the room in which he had his equipment were covered with
QSL postcards from other ham operators who had chatted with him.
Similar to this webgrab:

http://w5rg.donretzlaff.com/QSLcards/set6/W9MDA_1940_PrincetonIllinois.jpg

Nice guy, but sometimes we'd be watching television and his voice came
booming out "CQ, CQ, CQ" spoiling Milton Berle whatever show was on.
It wasn't constant, so it must have had something to do with the
weather. If my memory is right, he was W9MKM.

[Dingbat]

On Friday, December 9, 2016 at 6:21:15 AM UTC+5:30, Robert Bannister wrote:
> On 8/12/16 4:51 pm, Dingbat wrote:
> >>
> > Australians measure beer in schooners* (425 ml).
>

> Everything's changed. Most people, at least here in Perth, drink imperial
> pints. Schooners in the west always were pints and because of blow-ins from

> the east, there was often confusion between schooners and pots.
>

Ah! I stand corrected. I don't remember whether it's from something written by
an East Aussie that I got the erroneous idea that a pot was a schooner. Be
that as it may, the purpose of bringing up a schooner was to defuse a
contentious exchange by the humor of a pun (schooner helped introduce galleon,
a pun on gallon). For those who find puns humorous, that is.

>
> West Australian beer measures:
> schooner/pint 20 fl oz (568 ml)
> pot 15 fl oz (425 ml)
> middy 10 fl oz (284 ml)
> glass 7 fl oz (199 ml)
> pony 5 fl oz (142 ml)
>
> Of these, I think only the pint and the middy glasses are stocked in
> most pubs today.
>

It seems that the British don't need Aussie terms; they could call a middy a
half pint and don't need to call the others anything coz there are no
servings in those sizes.

[charles]

In article <a582eb33-0b06-41e0...@googlegroups.com>, Dingbat

only if it's prepacked.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

[Pierre Jelenc]

In article <3a7j4c1csrtm5f7mb...@4ax.com>,

Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Exactly. When you order a (brand name) draft beer in the US you are
>ordering a glass of that beer, but there's no rule or even custom of
>the size of that glass or the quantity of beer you will receive.

In the bars I frequent, not only does the blackboard list the beers and
the day each cask or keg was tapped, but it also lists the sizes and the
prices. Typically 12 oz for strong beers, and 14, 16, and/or 20 oz for
ordinary ones.

They also do not serve Budweiser.

Pierre
--
Pierre Jelenc
The Gigometer www.gigometer.com
The NYC Beer Guide www.nycbeer.org

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2016-12-08 22:44:42 +0000, Richard Heathfield said:

> On 08/12/16 22:09, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> On Thu, 08 Dec 2016 16:02:03 -0600, m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:
>>
>>> Tony Cooper:
>>>> Whathisname RH will think I'm missing the point or being disingenuous,
>>>> but when I was a kid reading comic books I was greatly puzzled by
>>>> instructions to send a "SSAE" with a dime or quarter to receive what
>>>> was being advertised. It was years before I realized that was a
>>>> "stamped, self-addressed envelope".
>>>
>>> That would surprise me too. The phrase I know for it is
>>> "self-addressed, stamped envelope" (with or without a comma) or SASE.
>>
>> It may have been SASE and not SSAE. Your memory of comic book ads may
>> be better than mine.
>
> In the UK, SAE and SSAE were common, and I don't recall ever seeing
> SASE. Crossponditis strikes again?

The self- bit seems redundant. Who else would it be addressed to? And
if you wanted it addressed to someone else, why shouldn't you? The only
one I ever saw when I were a lad was SAE.

--
athel

[RH Draney]

On 12/8/2016 10:40 PM, Tony Cooper wrote:
>
> When I was growing up, a ham operator lived across the street from us.
> The walls in the room in which he had his equipment were covered with
> QSL postcards from other ham operators who had chatted with him.
> Similar to this webgrab:
>
> http://w5rg.donretzlaff.com/QSLcards/set6/W9MDA_1940_PrincetonIllinois.jpg
>
> Nice guy, but sometimes we'd be watching television and his voice came
> booming out "CQ, CQ, CQ" spoiling Milton Berle whatever show was on.
> It wasn't constant, so it must have had something to do with the
> weather. If my memory is right, he was W9MKM.

Pretty sure Uncle Miltie had nothing to do with this movie:

http://www.dvd-covers.org/d/87849-3/56cq_hires.jpg

....r

[Richard Tobin]

In article <51W5y0sPNk52-pn2-gr1gKCUx55xP@localhost>,

There's nothing in the article about imperial threads. It's just the
dimensions of a particular item, measured in imperial units, which in
this case are the same as US units.

-- Richard

[Richard Heathfield]

On 09/12/16 07:41, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2016-12-08 22:44:42 +0000, Richard Heathfield said:
>
>> On 08/12/16 22:09, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>> On Thu, 08 Dec 2016 16:02:03 -0600, m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:
>>>
>>>> Tony Cooper:
>>>>> Whathisname RH will think I'm missing the point or being disingenuous,
>>>>> but when I was a kid reading comic books I was greatly puzzled by
>>>>> instructions to send a "SSAE" with a dime or quarter to receive what
>>>>> was being advertised. It was years before I realized that was a
>>>>> "stamped, self-addressed envelope".
>>>>
>>>> That would surprise me too. The phrase I know for it is
>>>> "self-addressed, stamped envelope" (with or without a comma) or SASE.
>>>
>>> It may have been SASE and not SSAE. Your memory of comic book ads may
>>> be better than mine.
>>
>> In the UK, SAE and SSAE were common, and I don't recall ever seeing
>> SASE. Crossponditis strikes again?
>
> The self- bit seems redundant.

Well, maybe. Children who are old enough to read comics are also old
enough to know that you put the letter in the envelope, you put the
address of the recipient on the envelope, you put a stamp on the
envelope, you post the envelope in the big red thing, and magic happens.
So they may well associate the address with the recipient. A not
completely illogical association, in fact. But in this case, they must
put *their own* address on a stamped envelope, and then put /that/
envelope /inside/ another stamped envelope with the recipient's name on it.

I can imagine an editor receiving, for the 378th time, an envelope
bearing his address and containing /another/ envelope bearing his
address. "Oh, for pity's sake! Look, Bill, perhaps we should tell the
kids to include a stamped, SELF-addressed envelope? Then maybe we'd
actually be able to send the kids their decoder rings..."

[J. J. Lodder]

Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:

> On 8/12/16 4:51 pm, Dingbat wrote:

> > On Thursday, December 8, 2016 at 7:24:13 AM UTC+5:30, Robert Bannister:

> >> On 8/12/16 1:13 am, Richard Tobin wrote:
> >>
> >> Surely US ounces, pints, gallons and any other measures that have the
> >> same name but different sizes would be confusing to British readers.
> >>
> > Australians measure beer in schooners* (425 ml).
>
> Everything's changed. Most people, at least here in Perth, drink pints
> now - proper imperial pints, although you do have be careful. I've have
> been offered anything form 520-560 ml instead of the proper 568 ml. Our
> schooners in the west always were full pints anyway, although not many
> pubs had the glasses in the old days, and because of blow-ins from the
> east, there was often confusion between schooners and pots.
>
> West Australian beer measures:
> schooner/pint 20 fl oz (568 ml)
> pot 15 fl oz (425 ml)
> middy 10 fl oz (284 ml)
> glass 7 fl oz (199 ml)
> pony 5 fl oz (142 ml)
>
> Of these, I think only the pint and the middy glasses are stocked in
> most pubs today.

In England a 'schooner' is a sherry glass.
From Dutch 'schoener' btw,
which is a gaff-rigged and relatively fast sailing ship,

Jan

[Cheryl]

"Schooner" is also a ship in English; in fact, I'd say that was the
primary definition, and the first and only one to come to my mind.

I couldn't tell you what the rigging is like - I always get confused by
explanations of how to distinguish the various ships from the Days of Sail.


--
Cheryl

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

I have also heard "schooner" used in England to mean a beer glass. I'm
not sure whether it was one pint or half a pint.
That was not recently. It might have been used to refer to a glass
without a handle rather than one with (a glass tankard).

>From Dutch 'schoener' btw,
>which is a gaff-rigged and relatively fast sailing ship,
>
>Jan
>
>

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[J. J. Lodder]

Not by coincidence of course.
Wikip EN gives a Dutch origin, citing 17th century sources.
Perhaps from 'een Schoone' => A beauty.
(some 17th century schooners were yachts for the rich)
Wikip NL gives an American origin, but gives much later sources,
and a fable for the etymology.

> I couldn't tell you what the rigging is like - I always get confused by
> explanations of how to distinguish the various ships from the Days of Sail.

Only sails in the length, for shooners,
so relatively fast, and capable of cruising close to the wind.

Schooners were also used by the Americans (19th century)
as blockade runners.
They could outrun any square rigged warship.

Jan

PS A 'clipper' is also a sherry glass, also named
after the kind of ships that brought in the stuff.
I have no idea how the Australian schooner glass
got to be inflated to beer size.

[CDB]

On 12/8/2016 7:17 PM, Peter Moylan wrote:

> CDB wrote:
>> Richard Tobin wrote:
>>> HVS <off...@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> Richard Tobin wrote
>>>>> Kieran Williams <KieranW...@plusnet.net> wrote:

>>>>>> I've never once in my life heard a mechanic, for example, call
>>>>>> his inch-based wrenches "imperial".

>>>>> You probably live in America.

>>>> Hmmm; doesn't look like it. (He has a plusnet email address, which
>>>> AFAIK means he's UK-based.)

>>> Confusingly, it appears that plusnet.net is unrelated to plus.net,
>>> and elewhere he refers to himself as being in the US.

>> I believe we know him under another name.

> I must be getting slow, because that hadn't occurred to me. I thought it
> was just another clueless newbie.

You were dazzled by all the missing asterisks (If I'm right).

[Wayne Brown]

On Wed, 07 Dec 2016 15:15:13 in article <o29u50$b0m$1...@news.mixmin.net> Kieran Williams <KieranW...@plusnet.net> wrote:
> Osmium scrit:
>
>> Wiki is written by real people, not people who specialize in fussy details
>> such as this.
>
> But nobody uses the word "imperial" when describing "inches" in the USA.

The weather app I use on my phone is AccuWeather, and it comes from
a developer in Pennsylvania. In the Settings menu, under Units,
the choices are Metric (°C, km/h, mm) or Imperial (°F, mph, in).

--
F. Wayne Brown <fwb...@bellsouth.net>

ur sag9-ga ur-tur-še3 ba-an-kur9
"A dog that is played with turns into a puppy." (Sumerian proverb)

[Robert Bannister]

I have a suspicion that much of the opposition comes from beer drinkers
who, although they are vociferous in demanding full measure, are very
conservative when it comes to change, and glasses with lines on seem
very foreign to them. "'Ey, luv. Fill 'er up".

[Robert Bannister]

I think that's right. Plus the fact that the barmaid is likely to be
fresh out from Ireland, anyway.

[Robert Bannister]

I don't know whether they still do it, as it has been decades since I
last ordered one, but pubs used to serve sherry here in 7 oz glasses.
What I thought was going to stimulate my appetite nearly had me on the
floor before the meal arrived.

[Robert Bannister]

The Dutch gave us a number of sailing terms: boom and yacht spring to
mind. I'm not sure about mast and deck as they are the same in German
too, so quite possibly in Anglo-Saxon as well.

[Robert Bannister]

I always thought it meant "stamped, addressed envelope". Sometimes, when
I'm not thinking too clearly and want a bundle of pre-stamped envelopes,
I ask the post office man for stamped, addressed envelopes because it is
such a common phrase. Post office men, however, are too lazy to address
them for me.