Pronunciation of Rishi Sunak

[Dingbat]

Subject: Pronunciation of Rishi Sunak

The name of the UK's upcoming PM is pronounced in Hindi
and Indian English spoken by Hindi speakers as:

[rɪʂɪ sʊnɐk]

[rɪʂɪ] has an exceptional terminal vowel.
in that a terminal i is invariably tense in Hindi,
but lax in this name (which is also a common noun).
Anglophones who can't manage a retroflex fricative
may improvise with [rɪʃɪ], rhyming with <wishy>.

[sʊnɐk] rhymes with "put up"' in that it has 2 stressed
syllables with the same vowels as in <put up>.
A two word sequence of English words rhymes
better than a single 2 syllable English word since
the latter typically has one stressed syllable and one
reduced syllable rather than 2 stressed syllables.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Monday, October 24, 2022 at 10:26:38 PM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> Subject: Pronunciation of Rishi Sunak
>
> The name of the UK's upcoming PM is pronounced in Hindi
> and Indian English spoken by Hindi speakers as:
>
> [rɪʂɪ sʊnɐk]

The Beeb, and his fiends whom they interview, say ['rɪʃi].
They don't bother much with the last name, but it seems
to be the expected ['sunæk].

One might expect ['riʃi] on the basis Maharishi Mahesh Yogi,
who was a celebrity guru back in hippie times, but he's
British.

[ɪ] isn't possible in an open syllable (never mind the knight
who says ni in *Spamalot*),and [ʂ] isn't possible at all.

[S K]

On Monday, October 24, 2022 at 10:26:38 PM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:

> Subject: Pronunciation of Rishi Sunak
>
> The name of the UK's upcoming PM is pronounced in Hindi
> and Indian English spoken by Hindi speakers as:
>
> [rɪʂɪ sʊnɐk]
>
> [rɪʂɪ] has an exceptional terminal vowel.
> in that a terminal i is invariably tense in Hindi,
> but lax in this name (which is also a common noun).
> Anglophones who can't manage a retroflex fricative
> may improvise with [rɪʃɪ], rhyming with <wishy>.
>

Mallu Ranjit misinforms more than usual when his mouth is full of "anglophone" dick.

But even if he gives correct info , "anglophones" don't give a flying fuck how they pronounce an "exotic" name.

[bruce bowser]

On Monday, October 24, 2022 at 10:26:38 PM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:

In the US, Richard is typically only pronounced 'Richard' or 'Richie' or 'Rich'. Yet, over in the UK, i've noticed that there is also 'Rishad' and now 'Rishi'? If 'Rishi' is actually short for 'Richard'?

[Dingbat]

On Tuesday, October 25, 2022 at 4:25:19 PM UTC-7, bruce bowser wrote:

> In the US, Richard is typically only pronounced 'Richard' or 'Richie' or 'Rich'. Yet, over in the UK, i've noticed that there is also 'Rishad' and now 'Rishi'? If 'Rishi' is actually short for 'Richard'?

Rishad starts with [ri].
Rishi starts with [rɪ].
In India, that is.

Neither is related to Richard.

[Arindam Banerjee]

The film director spelled his name in English as Hrishikesh.
It should be Hrhishikesh, but who can pronounce that?

[Dingbat]

On Tuesday, October 25, 2022 at 7:18:14 AM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Monday, October 24, 2022 at 10:26:38 PM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> > Subject: Pronunciation of Rishi Sunak
> >
> > The name of the UK's upcoming PM is pronounced in Hindi
> > and Indian English spoken by Hindi speakers as:
> >
> > [rɪʂɪ sʊnɐk]
> The Beeb, and his fiends whom they interview, say ['rɪʃi].
> They don't bother much with the last name, but it seems
> to be the expected ['sunæk].
>

Very well, but it wouldn't be expected from an Indian who
speaks Hindi natively. To reproduce their pronunciation,
add [ʊ] after s to <snuck>, not <snack>. I was describing
the Indian's pronunciation, not the Englishman's.

>
> One might expect ['riʃi] on the basis Maharishi Mahesh Yogi,
> who was a celebrity guru back in hippie times, but he's
> British.
>

In Hindi pronunciation,
Maharishi has [ʂ]
Mahesh has [ʃ] (post alveolar palatal) or
[c] (prevelar palatal) depending on the speaker
The <sh> in the two words are different phonemes
and spelled differently in India's abugida scripts.

>
> [ɪ] isn't possible in an open syllable (never mind the knight
> who says ni in *Spamalot*),
>

I've heard Anglophones use 3 terminal vowels in <country>:
[i], [ɪ] and [e], so it is possible for the ones who use [ɪ].
Roger Moore ended <fifty> with [ɪ].

>
> > and [ʂ] isn't possible at all.
>

[ʂ] wouldn't be articulated by the Anglophone in this context.
But I'm not sure that no Anglophone uses [ʂ] in <shoot>.
>
<https://www.google.com/search?q=risi+hindi+spelling>
gives an audio clip for this Hindi question starting with Rishi.
ऋषि कैसे लिखेंगे?

[Dingbat]

On Tuesday, October 25, 2022 at 4:49:00 PM UTC-7, Arindam Banerjee wrote:
> On Wednesday, 26 October 2022 at 10:43:38 UTC+11, Dingbat wrote:
> > On Tuesday, October 25, 2022 at 4:25:19 PM UTC-7, bruce bowser wrote:
> >
> > > In the US, Richard is typically only pronounced 'Richard' or 'Richie' or 'Rich'. Yet, over in the UK, i've noticed that there is also 'Rishad' and now 'Rishi'? If 'Rishi' is actually short for 'Richard'?
> > Rishad starts with [ri].
> > Rishi starts with [rɪ].
> > In India, that is.
> The film director spelled his name in English as Hrishikesh.
> It should be Hrhishikesh,
>

Ryschikesh.
IMHO, phonemic differences should be Latinized differently.
Rishad vs Ryschi, i and y being different phonemes and
sch and sh being different phonemes too, whereby
Maharischi vs Mahesh.

>
> but who can pronounce that?
> >

Those who can pronounce Hrotgar can mispronounce it.

> >
> > Neither is related to Richard.
>

Ryszard in Polish. Why do they use y and not i?
Because the vowel is retracted like the 1st vowel in Rishi.
That's a case for spelling it Ryschi.
>
FWIW, I should have given the canonical Indian pronunciation of
Rishi as [rɨʂɪ], not [rɪʂɪ]l what;s after r is a barried i,

[Arindam Banerjee]

On Wednesday, 26 October 2022 at 12:53:13 UTC+11, Dingbat wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 25, 2022 at 4:49:00 PM UTC-7, Arindam Banerjee wrote:
> > On Wednesday, 26 October 2022 at 10:43:38 UTC+11, Dingbat wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, October 25, 2022 at 4:25:19 PM UTC-7, bruce bowser wrote:
> > >
> > > > In the US, Richard is typically only pronounced 'Richard' or 'Richie' or 'Rich'. Yet, over in the UK, i've noticed that there is also 'Rishad' and now 'Rishi'? If 'Rishi' is actually short for 'Richard'?
> > > Rishad starts with [ri].
> > > Rishi starts with [rɪ].
> > > In India, that is.
> > The film director spelled his name in English as Hrishikesh.
> > It should be Hrhishikesh,
> >
> Ryschikesh.
> IMHO, phonemic differences should be Latinized differently.
> Rishad vs Ryschi, i and y being different phonemes and
> sch and sh being different phonemes too, whereby
> Maharischi vs Mahesh.

I don't think you know better pronunciation of Sanskrit than Shri Hrishikesh Mukherjee.
The Hr as opposed to just R indicates a certain consonant pronounced in a certain way, beyond the scope of most mlecchas.

[Dingbat]

On Tuesday, October 25, 2022 at 8:13:53 PM UTC-7, Arindam Banerjee wrote:
> On Wednesday, 26 October 2022 at 12:53:13 UTC+11, Dingbat wrote:

> > > The film director spelled his name in English as Hrishikesh.
> > > It should be Hrhishikesh,
> > >
> > Ryschikesh.
> > IMHO, phonemic differences should be Latinized differently.
> > Rishad vs Ryschi, i and y being different phonemes and
> > sch and sh being different phonemes too, whereby
> > Maharischi vs Mahesh.
> I don't think you know better pronunciation of Sanskrit than Shri Hrishikesh Mukherjee.
> The Hr as opposed to just R indicates a certain consonant pronounced in a certain way, beyond the scope of most mlecchas.
> > >

1) Mukherjee seems like an unusual pandit.
The usual Sanskrit pandit uses the same trill in Rishi and Rishad;
the only difference I've heard from them is in the vowel after r;
the 1st i in Rishi is retracted whereas the 1st i in Rishad is fronted.

2) If he's writing in Latin script, he's spelling it for mlecchas, not for Indians.
Unfortunately, mlecchas' pronunciation of hr might be worse than
their pronunciation of r because they have a different way of pronouncing
hr. An example is found in the historical/ legendary name Hrothgar.

3) It's not just mlecchas who don't know how to pronounce Sanskrit vocalic
or syllabic r. Indians too don't know exactly how Panini pronounced it.
Be that as it may, these examples from Burrow's book on Sanskrit seem to
indicate that cognates in other IE languages have a vowel adjacent to r
where Sanskrit has no adjacent vowel which would seem to make the
original Sanskrit r syllabic in these words.

Sanskrit: pṛccháti "asks"
Latin: poscit < *porscit
Old High German: forscōn

Sanskrit: pitṛ́ṣu, locative, plural of pitár- "father"
Greek: πατράσι (patrasi)

Sanskrit: vṛttá- "turned"
Latin: versus, vorsus

Sanskrit: mṛtá- "dead", cf.:
Latin: mortuus, mors
Lithuanian: mir̃ti "to die"
Old Slavonic: sŭmrĭtĭ "death"

[Arindam Banerjee]

Good ss ever with his squiggles, our Ranjit.
I depend upon my genes to recite the Chandi to everyone's amazement.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Tuesday, October 25, 2022 at 8:17:11 PM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 25, 2022 at 7:18:14 AM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Monday, October 24, 2022 at 10:26:38 PM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> > > Subject: Pronunciation of Rishi Sunak
> > >
> > > The name of the UK's upcoming PM is pronounced in Hindi
> > > and Indian English spoken by Hindi speakers as:
> > >
> > > [rɪʂɪ sʊnɐk]
> > The Beeb, and his fiends whom they interview, say ['rɪʃi].
> > They don't bother much with the last name, but it seems
> > to be the expected ['sunæk].
> >
> Very well, but it wouldn't be expected from an Indian who
> speaks Hindi natively. To reproduce their pronunciation,
> add [ʊ] after s to <snuck>, not <snack>. I was describing
> the Indian's pronunciation, not the Englishman's.

But we're not talking about Indians or Hindi-speakers.
We're talking about an Englishman's name, which makes
a symbolic nod to its Indian forebear with [I] instead of [i].

> > One might expect ['riʃi] on the basis Maharishi Mahesh Yogi,
> > who was a celebrity guru back in hippie times, but he's
> > British.
> >
> In Hindi pronunciation,
> Maharishi has [ʂ]
> Mahesh has [ʃ] (post alveolar palatal) or
> [c] (prevelar palatal) depending on the speaker
> The <sh> in the two words are different phonemes
> and spelled differently in India's abugida scripts.

Didn't he live in Oregon? They don't have three different
shibilants in Oregon.

> > [ɪ] isn't possible in an open syllable (never mind the knight
> > who says ni in *Spamalot*),
> >
> I've heard Anglophones use 3 terminal vowels in <country>:
> [i], [ɪ] and [e], so it is possible for the ones who use [ɪ].
> Roger Moore ended <fifty> with [ɪ].

That's _very_ old RP. You can hear it in pre-War movies
and in elderly character actors later on.

> > > and [ʂ] isn't possible at all.
>
> [ʂ] wouldn't be articulated by the Anglophone in this context.
> But I'm not sure that no Anglophone uses [ʂ] in <shoot>.

Not by design.

One hears some sort of shibilant in African American speech
(for /s/) -- it's quite noticeable from Michelle Obama.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 4:28:56 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:

> 2) If he's writing in Latin script, he's spelling it for mlecchas, not for Indians.
> Unfortunately, mlecchas' pronunciation of hr might be worse than
> their pronunciation of r because they have a different way of pronouncing
> hr. An example is found in the historical/ legendary name Hrothgar.

Looks like an attempt to notate a voiceless [r].

[S K]

now that "linguists" and pretend-lingusts have had their say:

There is only one vowel in rishi - in the "shi" part.

it should correctly (although somewhat pedantically) be transcribed as rshi as in RgVeda or krshna.

As you utter syllabic r a vowel-like sound is impossible to avoid uttering at the end that is why an "i" often creeps in after syllabic r.

Among Indians ,only Southern Brahmins, give to chanting Sanskrit scripture seem to be able utter the syllabic r version of rishi (and also catch the retroflex sh).

Rather creepily, many goras now say it correctly - although Ree-shee would be easiest on them.

Hindi-speakers largely say rishi (two vowels) sometimes even rushi.

Linguist goras may even say the "sh" as retroflex - although that sound is largely gone from Hindi also.

[Arindam Banerjee]

Goras and brown goras try to make brahmins say Sanskrit sounds the way it suits them, the goras and brown goras I mean. They have been unsuccessful in that, but as I find, not completely.

[Dingbat]

On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 6:55:46 AM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 25, 2022 at 8:17:11 PM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> > On Tuesday, October 25, 2022 at 7:18:14 AM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > On Monday, October 24, 2022 at 10:26:38 PM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> > > > Subject: Pronunciation of Rishi Sunak
> > > >

> > > the expected ['sunæk].
> > >
> > Very well, but it wouldn't be expected from an Indian who
> > speaks Hindi natively. To reproduce their pronunciation,
> > add [ʊ] after s to <snuck>, not <snack>. I was describing
> > the Indian's pronunciation, not the Englishman's.
>
> But we're not talking about Indians or Hindi-speakers.
> We're talking about an Englishman's name, which makes
> a symbolic nod to its Indian forebear with [I] instead of [i].
>

Read the OP. I was talking ONLY about Hindi speaking Indians.
They, especially the ones with knowledge of Sanskrit would
say [rɨʂɪ sʊnɐk], unmindful of his birthpace being the UK and
his parents' birthplace being East Africa.

>
> > In Hindi pronunciation,
> > Maharishi has [ʂ]

> > Mahesh has [ʃ] or [c]

> Didn't he live in Oregon? They don't have three different
> shibilants in Oregon.
>

That was "oːʃoː" rɐɟniːc ("Osho" Rajneesh).
Osho and Rajneesh have the same phoneme /c/.
[ʃ] and [c] are its allophones.
>
mɐhɑ:rɨʂɪ mɐheːc joːgi was based in Europe.
Note that the 3 i's are different: [ɨ ], [ɪ] & [i]
in a Sanskriti register of Hindi.
[i] is the allophone of /iː/ in a terminal context;
it's [iː] in other contexts.

>
> > > [ɪ] isn't possible in an open syllable (never mind the knight
> > > who says ni in *Spamalot*),
> > >
> > I've heard Anglophones use 3 terminal vowels in <country>:
> > [i], [ɪ] and [e], so it is possible for the ones who use [ɪ].
> > Roger Moore ended <fifty> with [ɪ].
>
> That's _very_ old RP. You can hear it in pre-War movies
> and in elderly character actors later on.
>

I've heard lax [ɪ] in contexts like <mushy> and <mushiest>
from ~RP speakers a generation younger than Roger Moore.
General American is claimed to not have lax syllables in these
terminal and prevocalic contexts.

>
> > > > and [ʂ] isn't possible at all.
> >
> > [ʂ] wouldn't be articulated by the Anglophone in this context.
> > But I'm not sure that no Anglophone uses [ʂ] in <shoot>.
>
> Not by design.
>

No, as an allophone, which is why they have trouble transplanting
it to another context; they hear it as a phoneme and are thereby
unable to hear it as a different phone. Prof Rodney Moag taught
Malayalam at UT Austin after learning it as an adult while
volunteering as a social worker in Kerala, and following up with
a PhD in Indian Studies. He could produce the sounds of
Malayalam quite well, so it's possible for an Anglophone to learn
the difference.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Thursday, October 27, 2022 at 4:06:06 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 6:55:46 AM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Tuesday, October 25, 2022 at 8:17:11 PM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, October 25, 2022 at 7:18:14 AM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > On Monday, October 24, 2022 at 10:26:38 PM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:

> > > > > Subject: Pronunciation of Rishi Sunak
> > > > the expected ['sunæk].
> > > Very well, but it wouldn't be expected from an Indian who
> > > speaks Hindi natively. To reproduce their pronunciation,
> > > add [ʊ] after s to <snuck>, not <snack>. I was describing
> > > the Indian's pronunciation, not the Englishman's.
> > But we're not talking about Indians or Hindi-speakers.
> > We're talking about an Englishman's name, which makes
> > a symbolic nod to its Indian forebear with [I] instead of [i].
>
> Read the OP. I was talking ONLY about Hindi speaking Indians.
> They, especially the ones with knowledge of Sanskrit would
> say [rɨʂɪ sʊnɐk], unmindful of his birthpace being the UK and
> his parents' birthplace being East Africa.

Since his ancestors were from Punjab, perhaps Punjabi is
more relevant than Hindi.

When speaking a language that has the difference. That person
would _not_ import them into their native language (unless they
were imitating an Indian accent) intentionally

[S K]

the curse is playing inside baseball based on gossip picked up from the web.

Ranjit the Mallu will continue the pas de deux waist-deep in shit because he can (erroneously) use his three most favorite words -
"alveoloar", "anglophone" ,"allophone"

[Dingbat]

On Thursday, October 27, 2022 at 7:56:37 AM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Thursday, October 27, 2022 at 4:06:06 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> > On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 6:55:46 AM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, October 25, 2022 at 8:17:11 PM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, October 25, 2022 at 7:18:14 AM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > > On Monday, October 24, 2022 at 10:26:38 PM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
>
> > > > > > Subject: Pronunciation of Rishi Sunak
> > > > > the expected ['sunæk].
> > > > Very well, but it wouldn't be expected from an Indian who
> > > > speaks Hindi natively. To reproduce their pronunciation,
> > > > add [ʊ] after s to <snuck>, not <snack>. I was describing
> > > > the Indian's pronunciation, not the Englishman's.
> > > But we're not talking about Indians or Hindi-speakers.
> > > We're talking about an Englishman's name, which makes
> > > a symbolic nod to its Indian forebear with [I] instead of [i].
> >
> > Read the OP. I was talking ONLY about Hindi speaking Indians.
> > They, especially the ones with knowledge of Sanskrit would
> > say [rɨʂɪ sʊnɐk], unmindful of his birthpace being the UK and
> > his parents' birthplace being East Africa.
> Since his ancestors were from Punjab, perhaps Punjabi is
> more relevant than Hindi.
>

It's not relevant to speakers of languages other than Panjabi.
Hindi speakers would have a hard time pronouncing Panjabi;
it's a tonal language which Hindi is not.

>
> > > > [ʂ] wouldn't be articulated by the Anglophone in this context.
> > > > But I'm not sure that no Anglophone uses [ʂ] in <shoot>.
> > > Not by design.
> >
> > No, as an allophone, which is why they have trouble transplanting
> > it to another context; they hear it as a phoneme and are thereby
> > unable to hear it as a different phone. Prof Rodney Moag taught
> > Malayalam at UT Austin after learning it as an adult while
> > volunteering as a social worker in Kerala, and following up with
> > a PhD in Indian Studies. He could produce the sounds of
> > Malayalam quite well, so it's possible for an Anglophone to learn
> > the difference.
> When speaking a language that has the difference. That person
> would _not_ import them into their native language (unless they
> were imitating an Indian accent) intentionally
>

Prof Moag played blues sounding like any American blues singer.
Hence his nickname "The Pickin' -Singin' Professor". But when
he pronounced Malayali names, he didn't Anglicise them even
when speaking English.

[S K]

The curse threw a spitball and you are genuflecting,

Punjabi tones are a white linguist invention.
Punjes who live among Hindi speakers use voiced aspirates just fine,
Rishi has nothing to do with voiced aspirates - so a Panjabi would handle it the same way as Hindi (no obvious way to make it vulgar).

The rest of the tones are to maximize the vulgarity of the language - the tones a Punj would use in "behenchod" are something else.

[S K]

where do you hear "tones" is this high register sample of Punjabi?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Byj7KPvUq4

Gora linguists have done it again.

[Dingbat]

On Thursday, October 27, 2022 at 11:08:00 AM UTC-7, Dingbat wrote:
> On Thursday, October 27, 2022 at 7:56:37 AM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> > > Read the OP. I was talking ONLY about Hindi speaking Indians.
> > > They, especially the ones with knowledge of Sanskrit would
> > > say [rɨʂɪ sʊnɐk], unmindful of his birthpace being the UK and
> > > his parents' birthplace being East Africa.
> > Since his ancestors were from Punjab, perhaps Punjabi is
> > more relevant than Hindi.
> >
> It's not relevant to speakers of languages other than Panjabi.
> Hindi speakers would have a hard time pronouncing Panjabi;
> it's a tonal language which Hindi is not.
> >

On Punjabi Tones:
The only word I've listened to for contrasting Hindi and Panjabi pronunciation
is घोड़ा (horse) spelled the same in both languages. The pronunciations I
heard were [ɡʰoːɽɑ] in Hindi and [kɔ̂ːɽɑ] in Panjabi.

The IPA diacritic for a falling tone looks non-intuitive; the same 42 tone contour
is marked with a grave accent in Latinized Mandarin.

But the table here says it is a low tone.
<http://www.quora.com%2FHow-is-Punjabi-a-tonal-language>

Perhaps I heard the tone wrong. It seemed to have the tone
contour of an exclamation in English.

A Panjabi teaching the tonal system of Panjabi | YouTube
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tt0cSfZCjN8>

[Dingbat]

I heard it right! Omniglot says the tone contour is high falling.
https://omniglot.com/writing/punjabi.htm

>
> A Panjabi teaching the tonal system of Panjabi | YouTube
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tt0cSfZCjN8>
>

That is pronunciation. How to spell tone is a whole different
subject. As per Omniglot, level and rising tones are
distinguished by spelling, not by marking for tone.

As per an example given, word initial /ɡʰ/ घ and /gh/ ग्ह
are spelled differently because they differ in tone. The most
common way to transcribe them into Latin script for embedding
in English text would spell them both as <gh> making the tone
unmarked, thus rendering it impossible for a reader interested
in fidelity to the original to pronounce them like a native Panjabi.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Your buddy Skippy thinks that Prof. Harjeet Singh Gill, who first
identified that Punjabi is a tonal language, is an Englishman (if
that's what "gora" means). He was educated in Western linguistics
by Al Gleason and André Martinet, but appears to have been a
professor in India for his entire career.

https://jnu.academia.edu/HarjeetSinghGill/CurriculumVitae

[Dingbat]

That Skippy thinks so is a good indication that it is not so.
He has, however, correctly identified the context in which
one of Panjabi's 2 non-level tones occurs, a falling tone.
If he's right to claim that this tone doesn't occur in the
speech of Panjabi speakers influenced by Hindi (or
Panjabi speakers uninfluenced by Panjabi as he
oxymoronically prefers to put it), that still leaves it to be
shown that Panjabi's other non-level tone, a rising tone,
is not present in their dialect.

P.S. Is a Panjabi speaker uninfluenced by Panjabi an
oxymoron? Have I used "oxymorically" correctly?

[Dingbat]

Gora means white man. IMHO, Nordic Europeans are pink
whereas India's cinema star Aishwarya Rai is white and
Panjabis are not uncommonly white, so Gill could possibly
be (or have been) a gora in the literal sense.

[Peter T. Daniels]

You have. (oxymorONically)

[S K]

lying like a Mallu to suck Gora dick.

If you know anything about real life except "alveoloar,anglophone,allophone" you would know that Punjabi is under threat of extinction
in India because of pressure from Hindi and Pakistan under pressure from Urdu.

[Quinn C]

* Dingbat:

> On Tuesday, October 25, 2022 at 4:49:00 PM UTC-7, Arindam Banerjee wrote:
>> On Wednesday, 26 October 2022 at 10:43:38 UTC+11, Dingbat wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, October 25, 2022 at 4:25:19 PM UTC-7, bruce bowser wrote:
>>>
>>> > In the US, Richard is typically only pronounced 'Richard' or 'Richie' or 'Rich'. Yet, over in the UK, i've noticed that there is also 'Rishad' and now 'Rishi'? If 'Rishi' is actually short for 'Richard'?
>>> Rishad starts with [ri].
>>> Rishi starts with [rɪ].
>>> In India, that is.
>> The film director spelled his name in English as Hrishikesh.
>> It should be Hrhishikesh,

"The" film director, because there's only one, apparently.

> Ryschikesh.
> IMHO, phonemic differences should be Latinized differently.
> Rishad vs Ryschi, i and y being different phonemes and
> sch and sh being different phonemes too, whereby
> Maharischi vs Mahesh.

The one person I know with this first name is

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hrishikesh_Hirway>

He's involved with a lot of podcasts. For a long time, only hearing his
name said and not seeing it written, my main problem was to guess where
the first name ends and the last name starts. Hrishi Keshirway? Hrishike
Shirway? Hrishikesh Shirway? Hrishikeshir Way?

>> but who can pronounce that?
>>
> Those who can pronounce Hrotgar can mispronounce it.

Stop trying so hard! You hrethgir will never achieve perfection!

<https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/Hrethgir>

--
Young people aren't short of messages, but of a sense for
interconnections.
-- Helen Feng [my translation from German]

[S K]

On Saturday, October 29, 2022 at 11:05:40 AM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
> * Dingbat:

> Stop trying so hard!

Nails it - why the Mallu Christian is like fingernails on a blackboard.

Tries too hard to please gora "anglophones"

[Arindam Banerjee]

No worries about Punjabi, skippy. So long as Sikhs exist their language will exist.

[S K]

can't depend on surds when it is 12 noon they forget everything.
Even their scripture is not purely in Punj The language is mostly Punjabi or Hindi, interspersed with Marathi, Persian, and Arabic words.

Pakistan South Asia 108,546,000
India South Asia 39,015,000

co-existing with Urdu IS a dire threat to Punjabi in Pakistan.

It is widely viewed as the language to use to talk to servants, while drunk or to discipline children.

Urdu is the language in which Pakistan's federal business is conducted and even in the provincial assembly of Paki Punjab, the Punj language is only optional.

Punjabi conveys hypermasculine animality even in every day sentences - the language of power in Delhi businesses used to be Punj but that may not be true any more.

for Punjes the language of culture/being civilized is Hindi in India and Urdu in Pakistan.

A punj would tell his Hindi friends that his name is "bhalla" and nor ppalla as Ranjit the squiggle-man would tell you.

[Arindam Banerjee]

I don't know, Skippy. Looked like Punjabi was taking over the English language in Delhi, back in the 80s when I lived there. All the behenjis spoke English Punjabi style, not Hindi style.

[S K]

it might have been like that back then.

But in both Pakiland and India, punjes lament that their tongue is dying, the young don't want to speak it because it is perceived as crude (even the punj word for "crude", "paindoo" is crude,
If Panjabi is spoken both the speaker and listener are polluted, in my opinion.)

Indira's buttkicking of surds at the golden temple might have knocked the wind out of them.

[Dingbat]

Thanks. I take back my suggestion that he knows the contexts
in which tone is claimed to occur, based on his moronic claim
that a lack of tone in the name Bhalla shows a lack of tone in
Panjabi. I knew a Panjabi lady with a maiden name of Bhalla
spoken just like in Hindi.
Where tone occurs depends on context,
Word initial Bha has aspiration, not tone.

Bhaa too; Bhaar meaning weight has aspiration, not tone:
https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Punjabi/Gurmukhi/Tone

It's Bhaaram in Malayalam with the initial less
aspirated than in Hindi and Panjabi.

[Arindam Banerjee]

Indira outed Khalistani rogues fed by Uk, not Sikhs. For that, she paid with her life.
Punjabi is a robust language, so will last.
If there is social snobbery about it, that will be confined to the elites and wannabes. A minority.
The East Bengal language (called Bangaal) has more people speaking it than ever, what with the liberation from Pakistan.

[Arindam Banerjee]

That was Punjish.
Went well with the ghastly bunnyah-Gothic architecture and bread pakoras.

[occam]

On 26/10/2022 05:13, Arindam Banerjee wrote:

> On Wednesday, 26 October 2022 at 12:53:13 UTC+11, Dingbat wrote:
>> On Tuesday, October 25, 2022 at 4:49:00 PM UTC-7, Arindam Banerjee wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, 26 October 2022 at 10:43:38 UTC+11, Dingbat wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, October 25, 2022 at 4:25:19 PM UTC-7, bruce bowser wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In the US, Richard is typically only pronounced 'Richard' or 'Richie' or 'Rich'. Yet, over in the UK, i've noticed that there is also 'Rishad' and now 'Rishi'? If 'Rishi' is actually short for 'Richard'?
>>>> Rishad starts with [ri].
>>>> Rishi starts with [rɪ].
>>>> In India, that is.
>>> The film director spelled his name in English as Hrishikesh.
>>> It should be Hrhishikesh,
>>>

>> Ryschikesh.
>> IMHO, phonemic differences should be Latinized differently.
>> Rishad vs Ryschi, i and y being different phonemes and
>> sch and sh being different phonemes too, whereby
>> Maharischi vs Mahesh.
>

> I don't think you know better pronunciation of Sanskrit than Shri Hrishikesh Mukherjee.
> The Hr as opposed to just R indicates a certain consonant pronounced in a certain way, beyond the scope of most mlecchas [*].

[*] "The word Mleccha was commonly used for foreign 'barbarians of
whatever race or colour'. As a mlechchha (or mleccha), any foreigner
stood outside the caste system and the ritual ambience. Thus,
historically, contact with them was viewed by the Hindu as polluting "

Comment: I had to look the word up in Wiki. It turns out it is a
kukkura word for 'barbarians'. Talk about the pot calling the kettle
black. Anyone from a 'caste system' has no right calling anyone else
'barbarian'. The proof is there, baked into your own system's
appellation.

[Arindam Banerjee]

On Sunday, 30 October 2022 at 19:09:29 UTC+11, occam wrote:
> On 26/10/2022 05:13, Arindam Banerjee wrote:
> > On Wednesday, 26 October 2022 at 12:53:13 UTC+11, Dingbat wrote:
> >> On Tuesday, October 25, 2022 at 4:49:00 PM UTC-7, Arindam Banerjee wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday, 26 October 2022 at 10:43:38 UTC+11, Dingbat wrote:
> >>>> On Tuesday, October 25, 2022 at 4:25:19 PM UTC-7, bruce bowser wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> In the US, Richard is typically only pronounced 'Richard' or 'Richie' or 'Rich'. Yet, over in the UK, i've noticed that there is also 'Rishad' and now 'Rishi'? If 'Rishi' is actually short for 'Richard'?
> >>>> Rishad starts with [ri].
> >>>> Rishi starts with [rɪ].
> >>>> In India, that is.
> >>> The film director spelled his name in English as Hrishikesh.
> >>> It should be Hrhishikesh,
> >>>
> >> Ryschikesh.
> >> IMHO, phonemic differences should be Latinized differently.
> >> Rishad vs Ryschi, i and y being different phonemes and
> >> sch and sh being different phonemes too, whereby
> >> Maharischi vs Mahesh.
> >
> > I don't think you know better pronunciation of Sanskrit than Shri Hrishikesh Mukherjee.
> > The Hr as opposed to just R indicates a certain consonant pronounced in a certain way, beyond the scope of most mlecchas [*].
>
> [*] "The word Mleccha was commonly used for foreign 'barbarians of
> whatever race or colour'.

And with a natural speech impediment so far as Sanskritic languages are concerned, that gives them away to this day.

As a mlechchha (or mleccha), any foreigner
> stood outside the caste system and the ritual ambience. Thus,
> historically, contact with them was viewed by the Hindu as polluting "

Quite historical. In those days one had to do severe penances to get rid of one's impurity caused by travel abroad, to the lands of mlecchas.
It could be that the BJP hardliners may want to bring those days back, but so far they have resisted that impulse.
Just to annoy the mlecchas, who are capitalist these days - and cronily so, to boot - it would be a brilliant move by the Left to bring the purification ceremonies back, to out-Hindu the BJP.
Shuddhi ceremonies will annoy the mlecchas who do not have votes, and get them votes of the locals. Left has already got the minority vote.

[S K]

take it easy now. you are talking about a Delhi-ite gourmet delicacy.

They have of course totally destroyed everything outside of Lutyens Delhi with the buildings Delhi punjes commissioned with all the looted Sarkari money.

Amazingly, the overflow punj money has gone into an obscenity called NOIDA and people say Delhi proper is a haven of civilization compared to NOIDA.

[S K]

What does Malayalam have to do with this discussion?
I am detecting senility here.

Like a whipped cur, he runs to the gora curse on humanity.

The site he cited contradicts most other sources about Punj voiced aspirates.

Almost all linguists lie almost all the time and It could still be right.

My source is a punj friend who taught a bunch of us non-punjes how to say "bhalle(vocative)" the punj way(tonemically rhymng with the ending of many cusswords) it was hilarious.

The truth may be that punjes say "bhalla" to non-punjes and ppalla in full tonemic glory among each other.

Punjes use tone at the level of pragmatics - to maximize hypermasculine salaciousness and scatalogicalness.

Tones ARE there , as they are in all languages and they are from pragmatics.

[S K]

The Mallu Christian has obviously shopped around for a website to support his lie.
He is an able assistant to the curse on the newsgroup in keeping this site leprous.

[Arindam Banerjee]

What!!!!!
You may have a point, though.
At our Dandenong market they used to sell bread pakoras at $2.50
Now they have increased the price to $5.00
It is filling.