"ë" vs "è" in Middle English (Britten)

[Adam Funk]

I'm looking at the text of Britten's _Ceremony of Carols_ in a church
service sheet (from a couple of weeks ago, of course), & it strikes me
as interesting that it has "yongë" & "nightingalë" (e with diaeresis)
in "That Yongë Child" but "è" (e with grave) everywhere else as well
as in "passèd" in the same poem. I wondered at first if it reflected
final vs non-final "e", but "Wolcum Yole" has "hevenè".

Comments?


--
...the reason why so many professional artists drink a lot is not
necessarily very much to do with the artistic temperament, etc. It is
simply that they can afford to, because they can normally take a large
part of a day off to deal with the ravages. [Amis _On Drink_]

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Tuesday, January 7, 2014 6:23:06 AM UTC-5, Adam Funk wrote:

> I'm looking at the text of Britten's _Ceremony of Carols_ in a church
> service sheet (from a couple of weeks ago, of course), & it strikes me
> as interesting that it has "yongë" & "nightingalë" (e with diaeresis)
> in "That Yongë Child" but "è" (e with grave) everywhere else as well
> as in "passèd" in the same poem. I wondered at first if it reflected
> final vs non-final "e", but "Wolcum Yole" has "hevenè".
>
> Comments?

He wasn't known for tracking down the latest philological commentaries
on the texts he set. Either that's how they appeared in whichever
anthology/ies he selected them from, or a copyist or engraver was careless.

[Stan Brown]

On Tue, 07 Jan 2014 11:23:06 +0000, Adam Funk wrote:
>
> I'm looking at the text of Britten's _Ceremony of Carols_ in a church
> service sheet (from a couple of weeks ago, of course), & it strikes me

> as interesting that it has "yong�" & "nightingal�" (e with diaeresis)
> in "That Yong� Child" but "�" (e with grave) everywhere else as well
> as in "pass�d" in the same poem. I wondered at first if it reflected
> final vs non-final "e", but "Wolcum Yole" has "heven�".

I have no authority for this, but can the � be intended as a schwa
and the � as an actual short-e vowel? (This is assuming that the
variation is not simple errors, or a misguided desire to make the
text look old-timey.)


--
"The difference between the /almost right/ word and the /right/ word
is ... the difference between the lightning-bug and the lightning."
--Mark Twain
Stan Brown, Tompkins County, NY, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com

[Peter Young]

On 8 Jan 2014 Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:

> On Tue, 07 Jan 2014 11:23:06 +0000, Adam Funk wrote:
>>
>> I'm looking at the text of Britten's _Ceremony of Carols_ in a church
>> service sheet (from a couple of weeks ago, of course), & it strikes me
>> as interesting that it has "yong�" & "nightingal�" (e with diaeresis)
>> in "That Yong� Child" but "�" (e with grave) everywhere else as well
>> as in "pass�d" in the same poem. I wondered at first if it reflected
>> final vs non-final "e", but "Wolcum Yole" has "heven�".

> I have no authority for this, but can the � be intended as a schwa
> and the � as an actual short-e vowel? (This is assuming that the
> variation is not simple errors, or a misguided desire to make the
> text look old-timey.)

Or is it an emphasis mark?

Peter.

--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk

[Don Phillipson]

"Adam Funk" <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote in message
news:ql4tpax...@news.ducksburg.com...

> I'm looking at the text of Britten's _Ceremony of Carols_ in a church
> service sheet (from a couple of weeks ago, of course), & it strikes me

> as interesting that it has "yong�" & "nightingal�" (e with diaeresis)
> in "That Yong� Child" but "�" (e with grave) everywhere else as well
> as in "pass�d" in the same poem. I wondered at first if it reflected
> final vs non-final "e", but "Wolcum Yole" has "heven�".
>
> Comments?

Even assuming the parish reprinted flawlessly the source text
(which no scholar would do), the comment remains off the point.
Libretti for sung music are not constrained by the orthodoxies
of pronunciation, ancient or modern. Composers are as free
to reshape speech, for the higher purpose of musical effect,
as poets are to revise or breach orthodox grammar.

--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

[Peter T. Daniels]

It doesn't have to do with pronunciation. Notes in the scores of
both "A Ceremony of Carols" and *Noyes Fludde* say to use modern
pronunciations (since the composer's intention is that the words
be understood by the audience).

[Adam Funk]

On 2014-01-07, Don Phillipson wrote:

> "Adam Funk" <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote in message
> news:ql4tpax...@news.ducksburg.com...
>
>> I'm looking at the text of Britten's _Ceremony of Carols_ in a church
>> service sheet (from a couple of weeks ago, of course), & it strikes me

>> as interesting that it has "yongë" & "nightingalë" (e with diaeresis)
>> in "That Yongë Child" but "è" (e with grave) everywhere else as well
>> as in "passèd" in the same poem. I wondered at first if it reflected
>> final vs non-final "e", but "Wolcum Yole" has "hevenè".

>>
>> Comments?
>
> Even assuming the parish reprinted flawlessly the source text
> (which no scholar would do), the comment remains off the point.

You mean no scholar would reprint Britten's text verbatim, or the
original ME?

> Libretti for sung music are not constrained by the orthodoxies
> of pronunciation, ancient or modern. Composers are as free
> to reshape speech, for the higher purpose of musical effect,
> as poets are to revise or breach orthodox grammar.

True, but the diacritical marks are usually there for some reason.


--
A recent study conducted by Harvard University found that the average
American walks about 900 miles a year. Another study by the AMA found
that Americans drink, on average, 22 gallons of alcohol a year. This
means, on average, Americans get about 41 miles to the gallon.
http://www.cartalk.com/content/average-americans-mpg

[Adam Funk]

On 2014-01-08, Peter Young wrote:

> On 8 Jan 2014 Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 07 Jan 2014 11:23:06 +0000, Adam Funk wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm looking at the text of Britten's _Ceremony of Carols_ in a church
>>> service sheet (from a couple of weeks ago, of course), & it strikes me

>>> as interesting that it has "yongë" & "nightingalë" (e with diaeresis)
>>> in "That Yongë Child" but "è" (e with grave) everywhere else as well
>>> as in "passèd" in the same poem. I wondered at first if it reflected
>>> final vs non-final "e", but "Wolcum Yole" has "hevenè".
>
>> I have no authority for this, but can the ë be intended as a schwa
>> and the è as an actual short-e vowel? (This is assuming that the

>> variation is not simple errors, or a misguided desire to make the
>> text look old-timey.)
>
> Or is it an emphasis mark?

You mean emphasis as in stress? I doubt either mark is; all the
instances of both look to me like the usual applications in hymns &
other poetry to mark that a MnE silent e isn't silent.


[Adam digs through recycling box.]

Here are all the graves & diaereses that I spot:

thou hevenè king
conteinèd
yongë
passèd
nightingalë
maiden that is makèless
unarmèd
pitchèd
this pomp is prizèd there
the birdès sing
as clerkès finden written in their book

Ne had the apple takè ben,
ne haddè never our lady
a ben hevenè quene.
[nice subjunctive-subjunctive]

Blessèd be the time
that appil takè was.


Oh, where did the "n" in "takè" go?


--
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room.
--- President Muffley

[Adam Funk]

On 2014-01-08, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> On Tuesday, January 7, 2014 11:59:29 AM UTC-5, Don Phillipson wrote:
>> "Adam Funk" <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote in message

>> Even assuming the parish reprinted flawlessly the source text
>> (which no scholar would do), the comment remains off the point.
>> Libretti for sung music are not constrained by the orthodoxies
>> of pronunciation, ancient or modern. Composers are as free
>> to reshape speech, for the higher purpose of musical effect,
>> as poets are to revise or breach orthodox grammar.
>
> It doesn't have to do with pronunciation. Notes in the scores of
> both "A Ceremony of Carols" and *Noyes Fludde* say to use modern
> pronunciations (since the composer's intention is that the words
> be understood by the audience).

Do you happen to have a copy of the score? If so, could you check
whether the diacritical marks below match Britten's?

thou hevenè king
conteinèd
yongë
passèd
nightingalë
maiden that is makèless
unarmèd
pitchèd
this pomp is prizèd there
the birdès sing
as clerkès finden written in their book

Ne had the apple takè ben,
ne haddè never our lady
a ben hevenè quene.

Blessèd be the time
that appil takè was.

--
No sport is less organized than Calvinball!

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Wednesday, January 8, 2014 4:10:04 PM UTC-5, Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2014-01-08, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Tuesday, January 7, 2014 11:59:29 AM UTC-5, Don Phillipson wrote:
> >> "Adam Funk" <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote in message

> >> Even assuming the parish reprinted flawlessly the source text
> >> (which no scholar would do), the comment remains off the point.
> >> Libretti for sung music are not constrained by the orthodoxies
> >> of pronunciation, ancient or modern. Composers are as free
> >> to reshape speech, for the higher purpose of musical effect,
> >> as poets are to revise or breach orthodox grammar.
> > It doesn't have to do with pronunciation. Notes in the scores of
> > both "A Ceremony of Carols" and *Noyes Fludde* say to use modern
> > pronunciations (since the composer's intention is that the words
> > be understood by the audience).
>
> Do you happen to have a copy of the score? If so, could you check
> whether the diacritical marks below match Britten's?

No, the several times I sang in it, the scores went back to the choral library.

> thou hevenè king
> conteinèd
> yongë
> passèd
> nightingalë
> maiden that is makèless
> unarmèd
> pitchèd
> this pomp is prizèd there
> the birdès sing
> as clerkès finden written in their book
> Ne had the apple takè ben,
> ne haddè never our lady
> a ben hevenè quene.
> Blessèd be the time
> that appil takè was.

In my 4+ feet of Britten CDs I have only two CoCs (it's not one of my
favorites). The London, of BB's performance, is exactly as you have
it. The Collins, of The Sixteen, now available on Naxos, omits some
of the accents, probably through inadvertence, and capitalizes Birdes.

Both agree that <apple> should be <appil>.

[Mike L]

On Wed, 08 Jan 2014 21:06:19 +0000, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com>
wrote:

>On 2014-01-08, Peter Young wrote:
>
>> On 8 Jan 2014 Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 07 Jan 2014 11:23:06 +0000, Adam Funk wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I'm looking at the text of Britten's _Ceremony of Carols_ in a church
>>>> service sheet (from a couple of weeks ago, of course), & it strikes me

>>>> as interesting that it has "yong�" & "nightingal�" (e with diaeresis)
>>>> in "That Yong� Child" but "�" (e with grave) everywhere else as well
>>>> as in "pass�d" in the same poem. I wondered at first if it reflected
>>>> final vs non-final "e", but "Wolcum Yole" has "heven�".
>>
>>> I have no authority for this, but can the � be intended as a schwa
>>> and the � as an actual short-e vowel? (This is assuming that the

>>> variation is not simple errors, or a misguided desire to make the
>>> text look old-timey.)
>>
>> Or is it an emphasis mark?
>
>You mean emphasis as in stress? I doubt either mark is; all the
>instances of both look to me like the usual applications in hymns &
>other poetry to mark that a MnE silent e isn't silent.
>
>
>[Adam digs through recycling box.]
>
>Here are all the graves & diaereses that I spot:
>

>thou heven� king
>contein�d
>yong�
>pass�d
>nightingal�
>maiden that is mak�less
>unarm�d
>pitch�d
>this pomp is priz�d there
>the bird�s sing
>as clerk�s finden written in their book
>
>Ne had the apple tak� ben,
>ne hadd� never our lady
>a ben heven� quene.
>[nice subjunctive-subjunctive]
>
>Bless�d be the time
>that appil tak� was.
>
>
>Oh, where did the "n" in "tak�" go?

That form is not unknown, though I've only ever seen the "n" version
in this lovely song. (In which, by the way, I've only ever pronounced
both "�" and "�" the same way. Stan's suggestion is attractive, but it
seems impossible to me.)

--
Mike.

[Jerry Friedman]

On 1/8/14 2:06 PM, Adam Funk wrote:
...

> [Adam digs through recycling box.]

Better than lying ibounden, bounden in a bond.

> Here are all the graves & diaereses that I spot:

...

> Ne had the apple takè ben,
> ne haddè never our lady
> a ben hevenè quene.
> [nice subjunctive-subjunctive]
>
> Blessèd be the time
> that appil takè was.
>
>
> Oh, where did the "n" in "takè" go?

John Frederick Nims, in /The Harper Anthology of Poetry/, gives it as

Ne hadde the appil takë ben,
The appil taken ben,
Ne hadde never our lady
A ben hevenë quene;
Blessed be the timë
That appil takë was!
Therfore we moun singen
"Deo gracias."

One with an "n" and two without. The author or scribe clearly wasn't
big on consistency. By the way, Nims puts only one dot over the "e"s.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Adam Funk]

On 2014-01-08, Mike L wrote:

> On Wed, 08 Jan 2014 21:06:19 +0000, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com>
> wrote:

>>Blessèd be the time
>>that appil takè was.
>>
>>
>>Oh, where did the "n" in "takè" go?

>
> That form is not unknown, though I've only ever seen the "n" version
> in this lovely song. (In which, by the way, I've only ever pronounced

> both "è" and "ë" the same way. Stan's suggestion is attractive, but it
> seems impossible to me.)

PTD says Britten wanted people to sing with the modern pronunciations,
so I wonder why he didn't modernize the spelling to make that clear.


--
I heard that Hans Christian Andersen lifted the title for "The Little
Mermaid" off a Red Lobster Menu. [Bucky Katt]

[Adam Funk]

On 2014-01-10, Jerry Friedman wrote:

> On 1/8/14 2:06 PM, Adam Funk wrote:
> ...
>
>> [Adam digs through recycling box.]
>
> Better than lying ibounden, bounden in a bond.

Ha!

>> Oh, where did the "n" in "takè" go?
>
> John Frederick Nims, in /The Harper Anthology of Poetry/, gives it as
>
> Ne hadde the appil takë ben,
> The appil taken ben,
> Ne hadde never our lady
> A ben hevenë quene;
> Blessed be the timë
> That appil takë was!
> Therfore we moun singen
> "Deo gracias."
>
> One with an "n" and two without. The author or scribe clearly wasn't
> big on consistency. By the way, Nims puts only one dot over the "e"s.

I guess there's probably a lot of variation in the old MSS anyway.
Only one dot? I don't recall ever coming across that (in English)
until now.


--
I take no pleasure in being Right in my dark predictions about the
fate of our miiltary intervention in the heart of the Muslim world. It
is immensely depressing to me. Nobody likes to be betting against the
Home team, no matter how hopeless they are. --- Hunter S Thompson

[Jerry Friedman]

On 1/15/14 4:02 AM, Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2014-01-10, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> On 1/8/14 2:06 PM, Adam Funk wrote:
...

>>> Oh, where did the "n" in "takè" go?
>>
>> John Frederick Nims, in /The Harper Anthology of Poetry/, gives it as
>>
>> Ne hadde the appil takë ben,
>> The appil taken ben,
>> Ne hadde never our lady
>> A ben hevenë quene;
>> Blessed be the timë
>> That appil takë was!
>> Therfore we moun singen
>> "Deo gracias."
>>
>> One with an "n" and two without. The author or scribe clearly wasn't
>> big on consistency. By the way, Nims puts only one dot over the "e"s.
>
> I guess there's probably a lot of variation in the old MSS anyway.
> Only one dot? I don't recall ever coming across that (in English)
> until now.

Nims doesn't say why he chose that marking. Maybe he was worried that
the dieresis would look like heavy metal.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Adam Funk]

Ha!


--
Master Foo said: "A man who mistakes secrets for knowledge is like
a man who, seeking light, hugs a candle so closely that he smothers
it and burns his hand." --- Eric Raymond