Origin of "Lose Face"

[Jeff]

I tried to trace the origin of the phrase "lose face", but couldn't.

Any idea?

I've also come across "you're money faced" in the Orient which is
supposed to mean a person who's obsessed with money.

Wonder if this will catch on in other parts of the world just like
"lose face".

Jeff

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[Garry J. Vass]

"Jeff" <roun...@MailAndNews.com> wrote in message
news:3B19...@MailAndNews.com...

> I tried to trace the origin of the phrase "lose face", but couldn't.
>
> Any idea?
>

The OED tells us this is traced to the Chinese "tiu lien", or "for the sake
of his face". To "save face" is apparently an English invention based upon
this.

[Jeff]

"Garry J. Vass" <ga...@totally-official.com> wrote:

>The OED tells us this is traced to the Chinese "tiu lien", or "for the sake
>of his face". To "save face" is apparently an English invention based upon
>this.

Thanks.

Got to throw away my pc version of American Heritage Dictionary
that come with voice.

It doesn't have "lose face" or "save face". <G>

[M. Ranjit Mathews]

Jeff <roun...@MailAndNews.com> wrote in message news:<3B19...@MailAndNews.com>...

> I tried to trace the origin of the phrase "lose face", but couldn't.
> Any idea?

Dunno. Would you approve of the following usage of pie-faced?

This Pie-faced the challenge of introducing reuse in a software development organization.

[Wayne Brown]

"Garry J. Vass" <ga...@totally-official.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:991376595.14707.0...@news.demon.co.uk...

Both expressions, I believe, are taken directly from Chinese. There's "diu
lian" (in China's Pinyin standard transliteration), which means to lose
face, as well as "baoquan mianzi." which means to save face. "baoquan" means
to save in the sense of to save from damage. Both "lian" and "mianzi" are
words for the face, which in Chinese can also mean prestige and reputation.

Regards,-----WB.

[Unknown]

>>
>> The OED tells us this is traced to the Chinese "tiu lien", or "for the
>sake
>> of his face". To "save face" is apparently an English invention based
>upon
>> this.
>
>Both expressions, I believe, are taken directly from Chinese. There's "diu
>lian" (in China's Pinyin standard transliteration), which means to lose
>face, as well as "baoquan mianzi." which means to save face. "baoquan" means
>to save in the sense of to save from damage. Both "lian" and "mianzi" are
>words for the face, which in Chinese can also mean prestige and reputation.
>
>Regards,-----WB.
>

Didn't these phrases become prominent in English when an influential
anthropologist used them to describe tribal behaviors, or something
like that? Maybe it'll jog someone's memory.

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

"Wayne Brown" <Wayne...@t-online.de> writes:

> "Garry J. Vass" <ga...@totally-official.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> news:991376595.14707.0...@news.demon.co.uk...
> > "Jeff" <roun...@MailAndNews.com> wrote in message
> > news:3B19...@MailAndNews.com...
> > > I tried to trace the origin of the phrase "lose face", but
> > > couldn't.
> >

> > The OED tells us this is traced to the Chinese "tiu lien", or "for
> > the sake of his face". To "save face" is apparently an English
> > invention based upon this.
>
> Both expressions, I believe, are taken directly from
> Chinese. There's "diu lian" (in China's Pinyin standard
> transliteration), which means to lose face, as well as "baoquan
> mianzi." which means to save face. "baoquan" means to save in the
> sense of to save from damage. Both "lian" and "mianzi" are words for
> the face, which in Chinese can also mean prestige and reputation.

Support for Garry's assertion:

The origins of these idioms are varied. According to Charles
Earle's _2107 Curious Word Origins, Sayings & Expressions from
White Elephants to A Song & Dance_, the phrase "to save (or lose)
face" means to "maintain (or lose) one's dignity, prestige, or at
least a semblance of such dignity or prestige or esteem before
others; to avoid humiliation or disgrace. The Chinese use only
_tiu lien_, which means 'to lose face,' though they have another
expression, 'for the sake of his face.'. It was the English
residing in China who coined 'to save face,' and it is that
expression, along with 'to save one's face,' that is in more
common use."

http://www.i5ive.com/article.cfm/words/45660

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |The misinformation that passes for
1501 Page Mill Road, Building 1U |gospel wisdom about English usage
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |is sometimes astounding.
| Merriam-Webster's Dictionary
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com | of English Usage
(650)857-7572

http://www.hpl.hp.com/personal/Evan_Kirshenbaum/

[Wayne Brown]

"Evan Kirshenbaum" <kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:ud78oo...@hpl.hp.com...

Charles Earle Funk's books are fun reading, but there's no doubt that he got
something mixed up here. He says the Chinese only use "diu lian" (written in
China standard Pinyin), to lose face, and indicates that they have no
expression for "to save face." That is obviously wrong. It is, however, true
that "diu lian" is a set phrase and that there is not another with "lian"
(face) and a verb in this context. However, there is a synonym for "lian"
(face) which is "mianzi," and Chinese regularly use two verbs with that
noun, "baoquan" and the less formal "liu," both meaning to save, to say "to
save face." Therefore, it's odd that the English are believed to have come
up with an idiom that already exists in that exact form in Chinese.

Regards,-----WB.

[jeanne...@gmail.com]

There is but another explanation for the term, "saving face". In the early-mid 1800s, European women sought a porcelain like complexion. To achieve this white hue, they used a pigment based in beeswax and lead. This became a problem during cold weather as they would build fires in the fireplace. The women made up could not stand near the fireplace for fear of the wax melting an burning their face. They found a solution by building a height adjustable board to block the heat. It was used for "saving face".

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Sunday, July 1, 2018 at 4:59:06 AM UTC-4, jeanne...@gmail.com wrote:

> There is but another explanation for the term, "saving face". In the early-mid 1800s, European women sought a porcelain like complexion. To achieve this white hue, they used a pigment based in beeswax and lead. This became a problem during cold weather as they would build fires in the fireplace. The women made up could not stand near the fireplace for fear of the wax melting an burning their face. They found a solution by building a height adjustable board to block the heat. It was used for "saving face".

This revival (from only May 21, 2001) has to be one of the most bizarre
folk-etymologies ever invented.

Oddly, Evan Kirshenbaum quotes a response from Wayne Brown that does not
appear among the 8 original messages.

[Peter Moylan]

The wisdom of gmail.com sometimes amazes me.

Is this an existing urban legend, or a new invention?

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia

[Lewis]

Does it matter?

And I think Urban Legend is gilding the lily a bit. Nonsensical ravings
hits closer to the mark, no?


--
"Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time."

[Peter Moylan]

I often think that it's a pity that the people who post these
contextless articles never get to see the replies.

[Snidely]

Peter Moylan formulated the question :

If they didn't see the check box, they get the email. Maybe that's why
the default was changed.

/dps

--
Trust, but verify.

[J. J. Lodder]

Lewis <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

> In message <phaipo$ruj$1...@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan:

> > On 01/07/18 18:59, jeanne...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >> There is but another explanation for the term, "saving face". In the
> >> early-mid 1800s, European women sought a porcelain like complexion.
> >> To achieve this white hue, they used a pigment based in beeswax and
> >> lead. This became a problem during cold weather as they would build
> >> fires in the fireplace. The women made up could not stand near the
> >> fireplace for fear of the wax melting an burning their face. They
> >> found a solution by building a height adjustable board to block the
> >> heat. It was used for "saving face".
>
> > The wisdom of gmail.com sometimes amazes me.
>
> > Is this an existing urban legend, or a new invention?
>
> Does it matter?
>
> And I think Urban Legend is gilding the lily a bit. Nonsensical ravings
> hits closer to the mark, no?

Indeed. If the molten wax was going to hurt
she would have a lot more hurts,

Jan