"Sunset" verb

[Paul Carmichael]

Google just announced that they are going to "sunset" a product next
year. In the body of the message they say they are going to "replace" it.

"Sunset" = "Replace"?

It's a new one on me.

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/elpatio

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 11:09:55 AM UTC-4, Paul Carmichael wrote:

> Google just announced that they are going to "sunset" a product next
> year. In the body of the message they say they are going to "replace" it.
>
> "Sunset" = "Replace"?
>
> It's a new one on me.

"Sunset" means 'discontinue'. Maybe take out of service gradually.

[HVS]

On 19 Apr 2022, Paul Carmichael wrote

> Google just announced that they are going to "sunset" a product
> next year. In the body of the message they say they are going to
> "replace" it.
>
> "Sunset" = "Replace"?
>
> It's a new one on me.

I'd not take that to equate "sunset" and "replace", but rather that
they're doing two related-but-separate things:

1. Retiring/closing down/ending suppport for an existing product. (I've
not seen "sunset" as a verb, but it seems a simple and concise term for
that.)

2. Introduce a replacement product.

Seems OK to me.

--
Cheers, Harvey

[Tony Cooper]

On 19 Apr 2022 15:09:50 GMT, Paul Carmichael <wibble...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Google just announced that they are going to "sunset" a product next
>year. In the body of the message they say they are going to "replace" it.
>
>"Sunset" = "Replace"?
>
>It's a new one on me.

It's commonly used in the US to describe a decision to allow a law or
a program to end at a future time. Basically, it indicates that
whatever is being sunsetted will not be renewed after it's current
term expires. In the case of a product, it indicates that no more of
that product will be made after the current inventory is sold.

You might represent it as:

Sunset = not to be renewed or continued

The "replace" aspect is a separate decision. Some things that are
sunsetted are replaced by another thing, but some are not replaced.

The term is frequently used in the area of funding. This article
deals with that:

https://www.kinanddignity.com/blog/why-funders-sunset-giving-priorities
--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

[Tony Cooper]

I should have mention that "sunset" will appear in an announcement of
a future change, not a present change. It's advance warning that the
change will be made at some future date, not that a change has already
been made.

[Paul Carmichael]

El Tue, 19 Apr 2022 15:49:08 +0000, Stefan Ram escribió:

> Paul Carmichael <wibble...@gmail.com> writes:
>>"Sunset" = "Replace"?
>
> In software, sunsetting means the planned cancellation or phasing out
> of a product or service.
>
> This is a word from product lifecycle management.


Oh. Back in my day, the verb was "end-of-life". It must have changed in
the last 20 years.


--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/elpatio

[Sam Plusnet]

Decline and Fall.

The company declines to help the users, and support falls off a cliff.

--
Sam Plusnet

[bruce bowser]

Evening star is a similar phrase.

[Lewis]

In message <pan$1e14$ff756acc$ea7dc7ed$77b1...@gmail.com> Paul Carmichael <wibble...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Google just announced that they are going to "sunset" a product next
> year. In the body of the message they say they are going to "replace" it.

"Sunset" in marketing is not new, and is an extension of the meaning of
sunset that means 'declining in health as age increases." When a product
is sunsetted it is withdrawn over a period of time, as opposed to being
summarily discontinued all at once.

> "Sunset" = "Replace"?

If the product will be replaced with something new that has nothing to
do with sunset, replacement is a separate step.

--
And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and
stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than
rhubarb does.

[Janet]

In article <slrnt5ugnu....@zephyrus.local>, g.k...@kreme.dont-
email.me says...

>
> In message <pan$1e14$ff756acc$ea7dc7ed$77b1...@gmail.com> Paul Carmichael <wibble...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Google just announced that they are going to "sunset" a product next
> > year. In the body of the message they say they are going to "replace" it.
>
> "Sunset" in marketing is not new, and is an extension of the meaning of
> sunset that means 'declining in health as age increases."

I've not heard either term, but "sundowning" is a term recognised in
UK

https://www.alzheimers.org.uk/about-dementia/symptoms-and-
diagnosis/symptoms/sundowning

Janet

[CDB]

On 4/19/2022 4:49 PM, bruce bowser wrote:
> Sam Plusnet wrote:

>> Paul Carmichael wrote:
>>> Stefan Ram escribió:

>>>> Paul Carmichael <wibble...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>> "Sunset" = "Replace"?

>>>> In software, sunsetting means the planned cancellation or
>>>> phasing out of a product or service.

>>>> This is a word from product lifecycle management.

>>> Oh. Back in my day, the verb was "end-of-life". It must have
>>> changed in the last 20 years.

>> Decline and Fall.

>> The company declines to help the users, and support falls off a
>> cliff.

> Evening star is a similar phrase.

Nun de thanOn lampeis, Hesperos en phthimenois.

[Lewis]

In message <MPG.3cc9f4e73...@news.individual.net> Janet <nob...@hame.cock> wrote:
> In article <slrnt5ugnu....@zephyrus.local>, g.k...@kreme.dont-
> email.me says...
>>
>> In message <pan$1e14$ff756acc$ea7dc7ed$77b1...@gmail.com> Paul Carmichael <wibble...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Google just announced that they are going to "sunset" a product next
>> > year. In the body of the message they say they are going to "replace" it.
>>
>> "Sunset" in marketing is not new, and is an extension of the meaning of
>> sunset that means 'declining in health as age increases."

> I've not heard either term, but "sundowning" is a term recognised in
> UK

Yes, and in AmE too, but it applies specifically to the lost of
faculties due to advanced dementia and/or Alzheimer's, not to the general
decline of old age. Sundowning also specifically has to do with the
tendency of symptoms to be worse in the evening in these patients, not
with a process over time of decline.

> https://www.alzheimers.org.uk/about-dementia/symptoms-and-diagnosis/symptoms/sundowning

<https://www.merriam-webster.com/medical/sundowning>
: a state of increased agitation, confusion, disorientation, and anxiety
that typically occurs in the late afternoon or evening in some
individuals affected with dementia

Quite different from sunsetting.

--
There is a road, no simple highway, between the dawn and the dark of
night

[wugi]

Op 19/04/2022 om 12:22 schreef HVS:

So this one they're going to sunrise?

>
> Seems OK to me.
>

--

guido wugi

[HVS]

On 20 Apr 2022, wugi wrote

Yeah, probably; "Why not?", I suppose.

I can't get upset about it, but then again I'm in the happy position
of not having to encounter that sort of thing on a daily basis.

(As evidence of my not-with-it-ness, I still stumble when I see
"reach out to" instead of "contact" -- a battle which I think has
been decisively lost.)

--
Cheers, Harvey

[Paul Carmichael]

El Wed, 20 Apr 2022 16:02:58 +0100, HVS escribió:

> (As evidence of my not-with-it-ness, I still stumble when I see "reach
> out to" instead of "contact" -- a battle which I think has been
> decisively lost.)

"Reaching out" is an act of desperation, isn't it?

Never mind. I'm sure it will go away.

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/elpatio

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Wednesday, April 20, 2022 at 11:03:03 AM UTC-4, HVS wrote:

> (As evidence of my not-with-it-ness, I still stumble when I see
> "reach out to" instead of "contact" -- a battle which I think has
> been decisively lost.)

For decades, prescriptivists inveighed against "contact" used
as a verb in that sense.

[Sam Plusnet]

On 20-Apr-22 16:40, Paul Carmichael wrote:
> El Wed, 20 Apr 2022 16:02:58 +0100, HVS escribió:
>
>> (As evidence of my not-with-it-ness, I still stumble when I see "reach
>> out to" instead of "contact" -- a battle which I think has been
>> decisively lost.)
>
> "Reaching out" is an act of desperation, isn't it?
>
> Never mind. I'm sure it will go away.

"Reaching out" is wretched.


--
Sam Plusnet

[Peter Moylan]

On 21/04/22 01:40, Paul Carmichael wrote:
> El Wed, 20 Apr 2022 16:02:58 +0100, HVS escribió:
>
>> (As evidence of my not-with-it-ness, I still stumble when I see "reach
>> out to" instead of "contact" -- a battle which I think has been
>> decisively lost.)
>
> "Reaching out" is an act of desperation, isn't it?
>
> Never mind. I'm sure it will go away.

We no longer reach out. We share.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

[Ken Blake]

On 20 Apr 2022 15:40:15 GMT, Paul Carmichael <wibble...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>El Wed, 20 Apr 2022 16:02:58 +0100, HVS escribió:
>
>> (As evidence of my not-with-it-ness, I still stumble when I see "reach
>> out to" instead of "contact" -- a battle which I think has been
>> decisively lost.)
>
>"Reaching out" is an act of desperation, isn't it?

It's better than retching out.

[Tony Cooper]

On Thu, 21 Apr 2022 10:49:32 +1000, Peter Moylan
<pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>On 21/04/22 01:40, Paul Carmichael wrote:
>> El Wed, 20 Apr 2022 16:02:58 +0100, HVS escribió:
>>
>>> (As evidence of my not-with-it-ness, I still stumble when I see "reach
>>> out to" instead of "contact" -- a battle which I think has been
>>> decisively lost.)
>>
>> "Reaching out" is an act of desperation, isn't it?
>>
>> Never mind. I'm sure it will go away.
>
>We no longer reach out. We share.

And sometimes interact.

[Hibou]

Not to me, I think. The point about sunsets is that they are followed by
sunrises and further sunsets. The same sun keeps coming back and doing
its thing.

It's therefore the wrong word to use, since it suggests the product will
be repeatedly discontinued and reintroduced.

Why not just say "discontinued"? I'd mark this down as yet another
example of linguistic inflation. Boo, say I!

[Snidely]

Watch this space, where Hibou advised that...

> Le 19/04/2022 à 16:22, HVS a écrit :
>> On 19 Apr 2022, Paul Carmichael wrote
>>>
>>> Google just announced that they are going to "sunset" a product
>>> next year. In the body of the message they say they are going to
>>> "replace" it.
>>>
>>> "Sunset" = "Replace"?
>>>
>>> It's a new one on me.
>>
>> I'd not take that to equate "sunset" and "replace", but rather that
>> they're doing two related-but-separate things:
>>
>> 1. Retiring/closing down/ending suppport for an existing product. (I've
>> not seen "sunset" as a verb, but it seems a simple and concise term for
>> that.)
>>
>> 2. Introduce a replacement product.
>>
>> Seems OK to me.
>
> Not to me, I think. The point about sunsets is that they are followed by
> sunrises and further sunsets. The same sun keeps coming back and doing its
> thing.

So far.

> It's therefore the wrong word to use, since it suggests the product will be
> repeatedly discontinued and reintroduced.
>
> Why not just say "discontinued"? I'd mark this down as yet another example of
> linguistic inflation. Boo, say I!

Been around for quite a while now, so, shrug.

/dps

--
There's nothing inherently wrong with Big Data. What matters, as it
does for Arnold Lund in California or Richard Rothman in Baltimore, are
the questions -- old and new, good and bad -- this newest tool lets us
ask. (R. Lerhman, CSMonitor.com)

[Peter Moylan]

On 21/04/22 15:43, Hibou wrote:

> The point about sunsets is that they are followed by sunrises and
> further sunsets. The same sun keeps coming back and doing its thing.

That insight has finally explained a politician's statement that has
been bothering me for several years:

"At the end of the day, the sun will rise."

[CDB]

On 4/21/2022 1:43 AM, Hibou wrote:
> HVS a écrit :

Maybe that sunset is what the product rides off into, at the end of the
movie.

[HVS]

On 21 Apr 2022, Hibou wrote

> Le 19/04/2022 à 16:22, HVS a écrit :
>> On 19 Apr 2022, Paul Carmichael wrote
>>>
>>> Google just announced that they are going to "sunset" a product
>>> next year. In the body of the message they say they are going to
>>> "replace" it.
>>>
>>> "Sunset" = "Replace"?
>>>
>>> It's a new one on me.
>>
>> I'd not take that to equate "sunset" and "replace", but rather
>> that they're doing two related-but-separate things:
>>
>> 1. Retiring/closing down/ending suppport for an existing product.
>> (I've not seen "sunset" as a verb, but it seems a simple and
>> concise term for that.)
>>
>> 2. Introduce a replacement product.
>>
>> Seems OK to me.
>
> Not to me, I think. The point about sunsets is that they are
> followed by sunrises and further sunsets. The same sun keeps
> coming back and doing its thing.
>
> It's therefore the wrong word to use, since it suggests the
> product will be repeatedly discontinued and reintroduced.
>

I see your point, but "sunset" has been used in the sense of "an
ending" for a long time.

Unless you're into reincarnation or believe in an afterlife, I'm
afraid your "sunset years" aren't going to be followed by a sunrise.
(The "About to be Discontinued Retirement Home" might be accurate,
but it's a tad harsh...)

> Why not just say "discontinued"? I'd mark this down as yet another
> example of linguistic inflation. Boo, say I!

Yeah, I suppose. My reaction was that while it's not something I'd
use, it gets the idea across. I can't get riled up about it, to be
honest.

--
Cheers, Harvey

[Lewis]

In message <XnsAE808600...@144.76.35.252> HVS <off...@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk> wrote:
> On 21 Apr 2022, Hibou wrote

>> Le 19/04/2022 à 16:22, HVS a écrit :
>>> On 19 Apr 2022, Paul Carmichael wrote
>>>>
>>>> Google just announced that they are going to "sunset" a product
>>>> next year. In the body of the message they say they are going to
>>>> "replace" it.
>>>>
>>>> "Sunset" = "Replace"?
>>>>
>>>> It's a new one on me.
>>>
>>> I'd not take that to equate "sunset" and "replace", but rather
>>> that they're doing two related-but-separate things:
>>>
>>> 1. Retiring/closing down/ending suppport for an existing product.
>>> (I've not seen "sunset" as a verb, but it seems a simple and
>>> concise term for that.)
>>>
>>> 2. Introduce a replacement product.
>>>
>>> Seems OK to me.
>>
>> Not to me, I think. The point about sunsets is that they are
>> followed by sunrises and further sunsets. The same sun keeps
>> coming back and doing its thing.
>>
>> It's therefore the wrong word to use, since it suggests the
>> product will be repeatedly discontinued and reintroduced.

Sorry, but this is nonsense, the metaphor for equating a lifetime to a
day is not just old, but ancient. Look up Oedipus and the Sphinx for a
multi-millennium-old example.

> I see your point, but "sunset" has been used in the sense of "an
> ending" for a long time.

> Unless you're into reincarnation or believe in an afterlife, I'm
> afraid your "sunset years" aren't going to be followed by a sunrise.
> (The "About to be Discontinued Retirement Home" might be accurate,
> but it's a tad harsh...)

>> Why not just say "discontinued"? I'd mark this down as yet another
>> example of linguistic inflation. Boo, say I!

They mean different things, obviously, as has been covered in this
thread.

> Yeah, I suppose. My reaction was that while it's not something I'd
> use, it gets the idea across. I can't get riled up about it, to be
> honest.

Discontinued product is a product that is no longer being made, and
likely no longer supported. Sunsetting is an announcement about a future
intent.


--
"They always say time changes things, but you actually have to change
them yourself." Andy Warhol

[Hibou]

Le 21/04/2022 à 14:11, Lewis a écrit :
> HVS <off...@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 21 Apr 2022, Hibou wrote
>>>

>>> [...] The point about sunsets is that they are

>>> followed by sunrises and further sunsets. The same sun keeps
>>> coming back and doing its thing.
>>>
>>> It's therefore the wrong word to use, since it suggests the
>>> product will be repeatedly discontinued and reintroduced.
>
> Sorry, but this is nonsense, the metaphor for equating a lifetime to a

> day is not just old, but ancient. [...]

True - the dawn of civilisation etc. - but is a metaphor necessary to
announce the discontinuation of a product? And must we have a new verb?
It's a simple event that calls for simple language.

> Discontinued product is a product that is no longer being made, and
> likely no longer supported. Sunsetting is an announcement about a future
> intent.

That isn't the point at issue. They plan to discontinue the product, and
when they do, it will have been discontinued.

Or if you like: they plan to sunset the product, and when they do, it
will have been sunsetted.

But why stop there? They plan to eventide the product, and when they do,
it will have been eventided.

And so on. Better to rein this sort of thing in before it gets out of
hand. Corporations aren't poets.

[Paul Carmichael]

El Thu, 21 Apr 2022 13:10:23 +0100, HVS escribió:

> Unless you're into reincarnation or believe in an afterlife, I'm afraid
> your "sunset years" aren't going to be followed by a sunrise.

I'd never heard that expression "sunset years" for old age. Only
"twilight years".

Here in Spain, it's the "third age".

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/elpatio

[HVS]

On 21 Apr 2022, Paul Carmichael wrote

> El Thu, 21 Apr 2022 13:10:23 +0100, HVS escribió:
>
>> Unless you're into reincarnation or believe in an afterlife, I'm
>> afraid your "sunset years" aren't going to be followed by a
>> sunrise.
>
> I'd never heard that expression "sunset years" for old age. Only
> "twilight years".

I don't know when or where I first encountered it, but it was a long
time ago. It might be Leftpondian.

> Here in Spain, it's the "third age".

For me, that's slightly different, as it implies "doing or learning
something new after retiring", rather than "the years leading up to
one's death".

--
Cheers, Harvey
CanEng 30 years, BrEng 39 years,
indiscriminately mixed

[Tony Cooper]

Speaking of the "point"...The real "point" is that the term is
recognized, used, established, and understandable, at least in the US.

Do we *need* a metaphor? No. Do we commonly use metaphors? Yes.
Does the use of this metaphor confuse or mislead anyone? No, because
we are accustomed to reading that products and programs will "sunset"
at some future time and understand that this means production or
provision of that product or funding will end at that future time.

This particular metaphor is what might fall under "second mentions"
even if it is the "first mention". Most articles that inform us that
a product, practice, or funding will "sundown" also include a phrase
like "will be discontinued".

Most of the time, when I see "sundown" in an article, it is about a
law or funding program that will be in effect for a specified period
of time. A law that provides funding for a particular program may
"sundown" at some future date because it is anticipated that the
funding will not be required after that date. Rather than pass a law
that must be repealed when the need is past, the law contains a
sundown provision the ends the funding automatically.

If "second mentions" is not a term you've come across before, it's the
practice of avoiding repetition in writing. An example of this is
when writing about the editorial position of the _New York Times_ the
newspaper's name is the first mention and the "Gray Lady" may be used
to describe that newspaper. Or, writing "Madonna will appear on
stage..." and later in the article writing "The popular pop singer is
expected to...".

[Hibou]

Le 21/04/2022 à 16:07, Tony Cooper a écrit :

> On Thu, 21 Apr 2022 14:55:39 +0100, Hibou wrote:
>>
>> And so on. Better to rein this sort of thing in before it gets out of
>> hand. Corporations aren't poets.
>
> Speaking of the "point"...The real "point" is that the term is
> recognized, used, established, and understandable, at least in the US.

Oh. In the US.

> [...] If "second mentions" is not a term you've come across before, it's the
> practice of avoiding repetition in writing. [...]

It's called 'elegant variation' chez moi - when it's elegant.

[Tony Cooper]

On Thu, 21 Apr 2022 17:07:11 +0100, Hibou <h...@b.ou> wrote:

>Le 21/04/2022 à 16:07, Tony Cooper a écrit :
>> On Thu, 21 Apr 2022 14:55:39 +0100, Hibou wrote:
>>>
>>> And so on. Better to rein this sort of thing in before it gets out of
>>> hand. Corporations aren't poets.
>>
>> Speaking of the "point"...The real "point" is that the term is
>> recognized, used, established, and understandable, at least in the US.
>
>Oh. In the US.

I can only speak for what is recognized, used, established, and
understandable in the US, but not - possibly - in the entire US. Some
stuff I've seen emanating from "Up Here" has not been particularly
understandable.

You initial post on this subject did not state your source. If it's a
US source, then my comments apply.

[Sam Plusnet]

On 21-Apr-22 14:58, Paul Carmichael wrote:
> El Thu, 21 Apr 2022 13:10:23 +0100, HVS escribió:
>
>> Unless you're into reincarnation or believe in an afterlife, I'm afraid
>> your "sunset years" aren't going to be followed by a sunrise.
>
> I'd never heard that expression "sunset years" for old age. Only
> "twilight years".
>
> Here in Spain, it's the "third age".
>

Here too.

Shakespeare decided on seven ages of man, & the third age was

"And then the lover,
Sighing like furnace, with a woeful ballad
Made to his mistress' eyebrow."

Which paints a quite different picture.

--
Sam Plusnet

[Lewis]

In message <t3rnor$f37$1...@gioia.aioe.org> Hibou <h...@b.ou> wrote:
> Le 21/04/2022 à 14:11, Lewis a écrit :
>> HVS <off...@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 21 Apr 2022, Hibou wrote
>>>>
>>>> [...] The point about sunsets is that they are
>>>> followed by sunrises and further sunsets. The same sun keeps
>>>> coming back and doing its thing.
>>>>
>>>> It's therefore the wrong word to use, since it suggests the
>>>> product will be repeatedly discontinued and reintroduced.
>>
>> Sorry, but this is nonsense, the metaphor for equating a lifetime to a
>> day is not just old, but ancient. [...]

> True - the dawn of civilisation etc. - but is a metaphor necessary to
> announce the discontinuation of a product? And must we have a new verb?
> It's a simple event that calls for simple language.

Have you actually read the posts in this thread? It is not specific to
products, and it is not new.

> That isn't the point at issue.

I am not convinced you have the slightest idea what the point is.

> They plan to discontinue the product, and when they do, it will have
> been discontinued.

These are two different things, it is sensible to have different words
to describe them. And whether you think it SHOULD be is irrelevant, as
you do not get to decide that, it IS, and that is all that matters. Feel
free to yell at the clouds, you'll get exactly as far.

> But why stop there? They plan to eventide the product, and when they do,
> it will have been eventided.

that is not a meaning of eventide.

> And so on. Better to rein this sort of thing in before it gets out of
> hand.

Hahahahahaha, that is hilarious. It certainly explains why we are all
still speaking Proto-Indo-European.

--
'I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are
the good people and the bad people,' said the man [Vetinari].
'You are wrong, of course. There are, always and only, the bad
people, but some of them are on opposite sides.'

[Paul Wolff]

On Wed, 20 Apr 2022, at 18:12:12, Ken Blake posted:

>On 20 Apr 2022 15:40:15 GMT, Paul Carmichael <wibble...@gmail.com>

>>El Wed, 20 Apr 2022 16:02:58 +0100, HVS escribió:
>>
>>> (As evidence of my not-with-it-ness, I still stumble when I see "reach
>>> out to" instead of "contact" -- a battle which I think has been
>>> decisively lost.)
>>
>>"Reaching out" is an act of desperation, isn't it?
>
>It's better than retching out.

It's just a better class of groping.
--
Paul

[Paul Wolff]

On Thu, 21 Apr 2022, at 15:55:04, Peter Moylan posted:

>On 21/04/22 15:43, Hibou wrote:
>
>> The point about sunsets is that they are followed by sunrises and
>> further sunsets. The same sun keeps coming back and doing its thing.
>
>That insight has finally explained a politician's statement that has
>been bothering me for several years:
>
>"At the end of the day, the sun will rise."
>

Isn't that something to do with Australia's being in the Southern
Hemisphere?
--
Paul

[Quinn C]

* Sam Plusnet:

> On 19-Apr-22 17:25, Paul Carmichael wrote:
>> El Tue, 19 Apr 2022 15:49:08 +0000, Stefan Ram escribió:
>>
>>> Paul Carmichael <wibble...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> "Sunset" = "Replace"?
>>>
>>> In software, sunsetting means the planned cancellation or phasing out
>>> of a product or service.
>>>
>>> This is a word from product lifecycle management.
>>
>> Oh. Back in my day, the verb was "end-of-life". It must have changed in
>> the last 20 years.
>>
> Decline and Fall.

Is that based on Empirical evidence?

> The company declines to help the users, and support falls off a cliff.

Cliff from support may need a support group.

--
I'll call you the next time I pass through your star system.
-- Commander William T. Riker

[Garrett Wollman]

In article <XnsAE7FA344...@144.76.35.252>,

HVS <off...@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk> wrote:

>(As evidence of my not-with-it-ness, I still stumble when I see
>"reach out to" instead of "contact" -- a battle which I think has
>been decisively lost.)

Presumably, in Canada and then Britain, you were not exposed to a
decade or more of Bell System/AT&T advertisements with the tag line
"Reach out and touch someone", intended to promote long-distance
calling.

One example out of many: https://youtu.be/yt6DvapiK-w

This obviously is not the origin but it certainly reinforced the
phrase in the public consciousness.

According to an interview with an ad executive that was also on
YouTube, the agency coined the phrase to match music that AT&T had
already licensed.

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
wol...@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)

[Mark Brader]

Garrett Wollman:

> Presumably, in Canada and then Britain, you were not exposed to a
> decade or more of Bell System/AT&T advertisements with the tag line

> "Reach out and touch someone"...

Your presumer is defective.
--
Mark Brader | "What students seem to really need are on-demand signs
Toronto | that show up at the point of need exactly when they
m...@vex.net | need them, but..." --Michelle Eichelberger et al.

[Bebercito]

... and a wretched pun.

> --
> Paul

[Sam Plusnet]

On 21-Apr-22 23:29, Quinn C wrote:
> * Sam Plusnet:
>
>> On 19-Apr-22 17:25, Paul Carmichael wrote:
>>> El Tue, 19 Apr 2022 15:49:08 +0000, Stefan Ram escribió:
>>>
>>>> Paul Carmichael <wibble...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>> "Sunset" = "Replace"?
>>>>
>>>> In software, sunsetting means the planned cancellation or phasing out
>>>> of a product or service.
>>>>
>>>> This is a word from product lifecycle management.
>>>
>>> Oh. Back in my day, the verb was "end-of-life". It must have changed in
>>> the last 20 years.
>>>
>> Decline and Fall.
>
> Is that based on Empirical evidence?

No, just a little Gibbon take.

>
>> The company declines to help the users, and support falls off a cliff.
>
> Cliff from support may need a support group.
>


--

Sam Plusnet

[Peter Moylan]

On 21/04/22 23:58, Paul Carmichael wrote:
> El Thu, 21 Apr 2022 13:10:23 +0100, HVS escribió:
>
>> Unless you're into reincarnation or believe in an afterlife, I'm
>> afraid your "sunset years" aren't going to be followed by a
>> sunrise.
>
> I'd never heard that expression "sunset years" for old age. Only
> "twilight years".
>
> Here in Spain, it's the "third age".

Many countries have adopted the concept of the "University of the third
age", which is clearly aimed at people who are still intellectually
active. "Third age" suggests to me someone who is retired, but is still
a long way from being ready to be left out on the ice.

"Middle aged" used to express the same idea, but these days it seems to
be interpreted as being a euphemism for "old".

[Mark Brader]

Garrett Wollman:
> > Presumably, in Canada and then Britain, you were not exposed to a
> > decade or more of Bell System/AT&T advertisements with the tag line
> > "Reach out and touch someone"...

Mark Brader:
> Your presumer is defective.

After posting that, I became curious as to which way it was defective.
Was I familiar with the slogan from seeing it used in American media,
or was it also used by Bell Canada (which used to be part of the Bell
System, but not by the period in question)?

In an attempt to resolve this, I did a ProQuest phrase search for the
slogan appearing in the (Toronto) "Globe and Mail". This is not by
any means a reliable way of finding all the places where a word or phrase
appears in the paper, but the earliest instance that it did find was
highly indicative. Excerpts from a short article by Robin Green on
page 17 of the paper's "Broadcast Week" supplement on April 28, 1979:

| "Reach out and touch someone," is the theme of the latest Bell
| commercial blitz, which uses ordinary actors in its 10 different
| television ads, but goes for big name talent in its 17 radio
| spots...
|
| Bell Canada apparently has no plans to copy the campaign.
| "We don't pick up U.S. advertising any more," a Toronto official
| with the company insists. "...our audience is different and so
| is our approach."

But now look at this. The *second*-earliest hit was on an item
published February 2, 1981, on page 10, reporting a severe case
of demand for long-distance phone service outstripping supply in
Northern Ontario. Excerpt:

| And why is it, the angry customer asks, that television viewers
| are exposed to Bell Canada commercials suggesting we "reach out
| and touch someone" on Sunday when any sort of a long-distance call
| is impossible?
|
| "I don't know, you'd have to ask our public relations department
| in Toronto", replies Ann McCormic, an assistant manager in Bell's
| Sudbury office.

I deduce from this evidence that the slogan was not used in Canada,
but also that Canadians were so much "exposed" to it in American media
that some people *thought* it was being used in Canada.
--
Mark Brader "`char **' parameters are packaged in GREEN
Toronto envelopes and placed on the FIFTH shelf."
m...@vex.net -- Chris Torek

My text in this article is in the public domain.

[Rich Ulrich]

Oh. Maybe I am more cynical about Bell, but what *I* deduced from
the evidence is that the line, "We don't pick up U.S. advertising any
more," was wishful thinking when it was uttered.

And... Bell Canada *is* mentioned by name. And that assistant
manager did not disown the ads.


--
Rich Ulrich

[Mark Brader]

Mark Brader:

>> I deduce from this evidence that the slogan was not used in Canada,
>> but also that Canadians were so much "exposed" to it in American media
>> that some people *thought* it was being used in Canada.

Rich Ulrich:

> Oh. Maybe I am more cynical about Bell, but what *I* deduced from
> the evidence is that the line, "We don't pick up U.S. advertising any
> more," was wishful thinking when it was uttered.

I can't rule that out, but if they had been using the slogan in the
newspaper, my search would probably have found one of their ads.

> And... Bell Canada *is* mentioned by name. And that assistant
> manager did not disown the ads.

Various reasons for that can be imagined. (And that's all I have to say.)
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "I'm not going to post a revision: even USENET
m...@vex.net | readers can divide by 100." -- Brian Reid

[HVS]

On 21 Apr 2022, Garrett Wollman wrote

> In article <XnsAE7FA344...@144.76.35.252>,
> HVS <off...@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> (As evidence of my not-with-it-ness, I still stumble when I see
>> "reach out to" instead of "contact" -- a battle which I think has
>> been decisively lost.)
>
> Presumably, in Canada and then Britain, you were not exposed to a
> decade or more of Bell System/AT&T advertisements with the tag line
> "Reach out and touch someone", intended to promote long-distance
> calling.

I think that's a different usage.

I've got no beef with the Four Tops: "reach out" meaning "reach out and
touch someone" -- either literally or metaphorically -- is fine by me.

"Reach out" meaning "I left a message with a corporate PR office to see
if they'd like to talk to me about some issue" is, I submit, better
described as "contacting" them.

--
Cheers, Harvey

[CDB]

Maybe we should change "grandfathered" to "nightgamed".

[CDB]

On 4/21/2022 9:58 AM, Paul Carmichael wrote:
> HVS escribió:

>> Unless you're into reincarnation or believe in an afterlife, I'm
>> afraid your "sunset years" aren't going to be followed by a
>> sunrise.

> I'd never heard that expression "sunset years" for old age. Only
> "twilight years".

> Here in Spain, it's the "third age".

That was when Gandalf floruit. He was old but flourishing.

[CDB]

On 4/21/2022 3:48 PM, Sam Plusnet wrote:

> Paul Carmichael wrote:
>> HVS escribió:

>>> Unless you're into reincarnation or believe in an afterlife, I'm
>>> afraid your "sunset years" aren't going to be followed by a
>>> sunrise.

>> I'd never heard that expression "sunset years" for old age. Only
>> "twilight years".

>> Here in Spain, it's the "third age".

> Here too.

> Shakespeare decided on seven ages of man, & the third age was

> "And then the lover, Sighing like furnace, with a woeful ballad Made
> to his mistress' eyebrow."

> Which paints a quite different picture.

Not if you believe the ads for retirement communities.

[HVS]

On 22 Apr 2022, CDB wrote

And there's a whole heap of places out there called "Sunset Village"
-- like this one:

https://www.seniorly.com/continuing-care-retirement-community/ohio/sy
lvania/sunset-village


--
Cheers, Harvey


>
>
>

[Quinn C]

* Garrett Wollman:

> In article <XnsAE7FA344...@144.76.35.252>,
> HVS <off...@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>(As evidence of my not-with-it-ness, I still stumble when I see
>>"reach out to" instead of "contact" -- a battle which I think has
>>been decisively lost.)
>
> Presumably, in Canada and then Britain, you were not exposed to a
> decade or more of Bell System/AT&T advertisements with the tag line
> "Reach out and touch someone", intended to promote long-distance
> calling.

Ah. But the part that rubs me the wrong way is the "touch" part.
Whenever it's said that someone "touched so many lives", I shudder a
bit. I have no problem with "reaching out".

--
- It's the title search for the Rachel property.
Guess who owns it?
- Tell me it's not that bastard Donald Trump.
-- Gilmore Girls, S02E08 (2001)

[Snidely]

HVS submitted this gripping article, maybe on Thursday:

> On 21 Apr 2022, Hibou wrote
>

>> Le 19/04/2022 à 16:22, HVS a écrit :
>>> On 19 Apr 2022, Paul Carmichael wrote
>>>>
>>>> Google just announced that they are going to "sunset" a product
>>>> next year. In the body of the message they say they are going to
>>>> "replace" it.
>>>>
>>>> "Sunset" = "Replace"?
>>>>
>>>> It's a new one on me.
>>>
>>> I'd not take that to equate "sunset" and "replace", but rather
>>> that they're doing two related-but-separate things:
>>>
>>> 1. Retiring/closing down/ending suppport for an existing product.
>>> (I've not seen "sunset" as a verb, but it seems a simple and
>>> concise term for that.)
>>>
>>> 2. Introduce a replacement product.
>>>
>>> Seems OK to me.
>>
>> Not to me, I think. The point about sunsets is that they are

>> followed by sunrises and further sunsets. The same sun keeps
>> coming back and doing its thing.
>>
>> It's therefore the wrong word to use, since it suggests the
>> product will be repeatedly discontinued and reintroduced.
>>

> I see your point, but "sunset" has been used in the sense of "an
> ending" for a long time.

>
> Unless you're into reincarnation or believe in an afterlife, I'm
> afraid your "sunset years" aren't going to be followed by a sunrise.

> (The "About to be Discontinued Retirement Home" might be accurate,
> but it's a tad harsh...)

Ha! A senior care facility around here goes by the name "Sunrise
Senior Living", and offers both assisted and independent living. It's
part of a chain.

>> Why not just say "discontinued"? I'd mark this down as yet another
>> example of linguistic inflation. Boo, say I!
>
> Yeah, I suppose. My reaction was that while it's not something I'd
> use, it gets the idea across. I can't get riled up about it, to be
> honest.

As remarked elsewhere in the thread, "discontinued" is often used for
"no longer available", while "sunset" tends to be used for "will be
available for a while, but will be no longer available", thus
emphasizing that the transition is not immediate.

/dps

--
And the Raiders and the Broncos have life now in the West. I thought
they were both nearly dead if not quite really most sincerely dead. --
Mike Salfino, fivethirtyeight.com

[Snidely]

on 4/21/2022, CDB supposed :
> On 4/21/2022 1:43 AM, Hibou wrote:
>> HVS a écrit :

>>> Paul Carmichael wrote
>
>>>> Google just announced that they are going to "sunset" a product next
>>>> year. In the body of the message they say they are going to "replace" it.
>
>>>> "Sunset" = "Replace"?
>
>>>> It's a new one on me.
>
>>> I'd not take that to equate "sunset" and "replace", but rather
>>> that they're doing two related-but-separate things:
>
>>> 1. Retiring/closing down/ending suppport for an existing product.
>>> (I've not seen "sunset" as a verb, but it seems a simple and
>>> concise term for that.)
>
>>> 2. Introduce a replacement product.
>
>>> Seems OK to me.
>
>> Not to me, I think. The point about sunsets is that they are followed
>> by sunrises and further sunsets. The same sun keeps coming back and
>> doing its thing.
>
>> It's therefore the wrong word to use, since it suggests the product
>> will be repeatedly discontinued and reintroduced.
>

>> Why not just say "discontinued"? I'd mark this down as yet another example
>> of linguistic inflation. Boo, say I!
>

> Maybe that sunset is what the product rides off into, at the end of the
> movie.

That's a good perspective.

/dps

--
"First thing in the morning, before I have coffee, I read the obits, If
I'm not in it, I'll have breakfast." -- Carl Reiner, to CBS News in
2015.

[bil...@shaw.ca]

On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 9:25:38 AM UTC-7, Paul Carmichael wrote:
> El Tue, 19 Apr 2022 15:49:08 +0000, Stefan Ram escribió:
>
> > Paul Carmichael <wibble...@gmail.com> writes:
> >>"Sunset" = "Replace"?
> >
> > In software, sunsetting means the planned cancellation or phasing out
> > of a product or service.
> >
> > This is a word from product lifecycle management.
>
> Oh. Back in my day, the verb was "end-of-life". It must have changed in
> the last 20 years.
>

I think "end of life" is mainly used of late for people who are dying, including
those who choose "MAID" -- medical assistance in dying -- rather than wait
for some gruesome illness to do the job.

bill

[Ken Blake]

On 19 Apr 2022 16:25:33 GMT, Paul Carmichael <wibble...@gmail.com>

wrote:

>El Tue, 19 Apr 2022 15:49:08 +0000, Stefan Ram escribió:
>
>> Paul Carmichael <wibble...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>"Sunset" = "Replace"?
>>
>> In software, sunsetting means the planned cancellation or phasing out
>> of a product or service.
>>
>> This is a word from product lifecycle management.
>
>
>Oh. Back in my day, the verb was "end-of-life". It must have changed in
>the last 20 years.

Verb, not noun?

John end-of-lived?

[Snidely]

On Friday, bil...@shaw.ca yelped out that:

That's wetware, not software. I think you can find "end-of-life"
announcements for older versions of Windows and Centos and Python 2.x,
where that phrase is used by the supporting organization.

<URL:https://www.centos.org/centos-linux-eol/>, frex.

/dps

--
You could try being nicer and politer
> instead, and see how that works out.
-- Katy Jennison

[Sam Plusnet]

On 22-Apr-22 20:49, Snidely wrote:
>
> As remarked elsewhere in the thread, "discontinued" is often used for
> "no longer available", while "sunset" tends to be used for "will be
> available for a while, but will be no longer available", thus
> emphasizing that the transition is not immediate.

"Discontinued" at least has the virtue of being a single word.

There is the traditional "While stocks last!", but that's a means of
stampeding the punter into buying something before good sense can prevail.

--
Sam Plusnet

[Tony Cooper]

There's an online publication that I used to subscribe to, but stopped
paying for, that sends me eMails at least three times a week that
announce that this my "Last Chance" to re-subscribe at a favorable
price. They've been sending the same eMail for about 3 months.

There was an oriental rug store in this area that had a large "Going
Out of Business Sale" sign for about five years. It was replaced by a
"Lost our Lease Sale" that remained in place for about two years. They
finally actually did close.


--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

[Garrett Wollman]

In article <oa766hh2pdgipetdi...@4ax.com>,

Ken Blake <K...@invalid.news.com> wrote:
>On 19 Apr 2022 16:25:33 GMT, Paul Carmichael <wibble...@gmail.com>
>wrote:

>>Oh. Back in my day, the verb was "end-of-life". It must have changed in
>>the last 20 years.
>
>
>Verb, not noun?
>
>John end-of-lived?

Regular weak verb. "Juniper end-of-lifed that release train four
years ago -- you really need to be on 18.3R3 at a minimum." Often
abbreviated to "EOL" (whether adjective or deadjectival verb[1]).

-GAWollman

[1] Been waiting for a long time to use that collocation.

[Hibou]

Le 21/04/2022 à 17:19, Tony Cooper a écrit :
>
> You initial post on this subject did not state your source. If it's a
> US source, then my comments apply.

By and large, if I rely on a source, I supply a link. In this case I
prefaced my remarks with "Not to me, I think", which was an indication
that what followed was personal reflection.

I like to think about the words I read, hear, and use. I believe this to
be a good habit. « Pensée claire, parole claire », I say to myself - and
sometimes, « Parole claire, pensée claire » (clear language <-> clear
thinking).

In this case, the question is: what is a sunset? What are the
connotations of the word? In my view, using it to mean 'discontinue' is
naff. It reminds me of the jargon our high heid yins used to use after
attending courses in the latest management fad. We lesser mortals
listened and held our tongues - but « Un homme qui se tait n'en pense
pas moins » (I've never been able to translate that cleanly).

Just because a usage is established, that does not mean it is a good one.

[occam]

On 20/04/2022 17:02, HVS wrote:
.

>
> (As evidence of my not-with-it-ness, I still stumble when I see
> "reach out to" instead of "contact" -- a battle which I think has
> been decisively lost.)
>

'Reach out' is a broadcast to the many, most of whom are unknown to the
initiator.

'Contact' is more specific, to people you know or have contact details of.

'To Contact' is NOT the same as 'Reach out'. What is *your* take?

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

The same grammatical question arises with "sunset": is the past tense
"sunset" or "sunsetted"?


--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.

[bil...@shaw.ca]

Be brave. Go with "sunsat".

bill

[Paul Carmichael]

El Sat, 23 Apr 2022 09:51:49 +0200, occam escribió:

> On 20/04/2022 17:02, HVS wrote:
> .
>>
>> (As evidence of my not-with-it-ness, I still stumble when I see "reach
>> out to" instead of "contact" -- a battle which I think has been
>> decisively lost.)
>>
>>
> 'Reach out' is a broadcast to the many, most of whom are unknown to the
> initiator.

Many times I have seen the message "Thanks for reaching out to (blah)".

"Reach out" is definitely used to refer to contacting one person.

Maybe it should mean what you say, but in reality...


--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/elpatio

[Paul Carmichael]

Verb. Much used by big software companies back when I was a programmer.



--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/elpatio

[Lewis]

In message <pan$608be$e6074969$de4f5de7$b7ed...@gmail.com> Paul Carmichael <wibble...@gmail.com> wrote:
> El Sat, 23 Apr 2022 09:51:49 +0200, occam escribió:

>> On 20/04/2022 17:02, HVS wrote:
>> .
>>>
>>> (As evidence of my not-with-it-ness, I still stumble when I see "reach
>>> out to" instead of "contact" -- a battle which I think has been
>>> decisively lost.)
>>>
>>>
>> 'Reach out' is a broadcast to the many, most of whom are unknown to the
>> initiator.


> Many times I have seen the message "Thanks for reaching out to (blah)".

> "Reach out" is definitely used to refer to contacting one person.

Is it? According to whom? And when?

> Maybe it should mean what you say, but in reality...

It reality, it means exactly what occam said.


--
Let him who desires peace, prepare for war.

[Paul Carmichael]

El Sat, 23 Apr 2022 11:34:42 +0000, Lewis escribió:

> In message <pan$608be$e6074969$de4f5de7$b7ed...@gmail.com> Paul
> Carmichael <wibble...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> El Sat, 23 Apr 2022 09:51:49 +0200, occam escribió:
>
>>> On 20/04/2022 17:02, HVS wrote:
>>> .
>>>>
>>>> (As evidence of my not-with-it-ness, I still stumble when I see
>>>> "reach out to" instead of "contact" -- a battle which I think has
>>>> been decisively lost.)
>>>>
>>>>
>>> 'Reach out' is a broadcast to the many, most of whom are unknown to
>>> the initiator.
>
>
>> Many times I have seen the message "Thanks for reaching out to (blah)".
>
>> "Reach out" is definitely used to refer to contacting one person.
>
> Is it? According to whom? And when?

According to me. From my experience. Are you telling me I haven't seen
this?

>> Maybe it should mean what you say, but in reality...
>
> It reality, it means exactly what occam said.

I don't care. I'm saying how it is used. Whether the usage is "correct"
is another matter.

That's what this thread is all about. It's actually what this ng is about.

You say that "pissed" means annoyed. I say it means drunk.

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/elpatio

[HVS]

On 23 Apr 2022, Lewis wrote

I guess you know better than we do how we've seen "reaching out"
used.

It's so kind of you to tell us we're making this up. Or something.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Our ads say "while supplies last." (When they reorder, the price goes back up.)

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Saturday, April 23, 2022 at 3:24:33 AM UTC-4, Hibou wrote:
> Le 21/04/2022 à 17:19, Tony Cooper a écrit :
> >
> > You initial post on this subject did not state your source. If it's a
> > US source, then my comments apply.
>
> By and large, if I rely on a source, I supply a link. In this case I
> prefaced my remarks with "Not to me, I think", which was an indication
> that what followed was personal reflection.
>
> I like to think about the words I read, hear, and use. I believe this to
> be a good habit. « Pensée claire, parole claire », I say to myself - and
> sometimes, « Parole claire, pensée claire » (clear language <-> clear
> thinking).

Lewis Carroll: "Take care of the sense, and the sounds will take care of themselves."

The existing adage: "Take care of the pence, and the pounds will take care of themselves."

[bruce bowser]

Well here in NYC, its more like cents and dollars.

[musika]

It's Lewis's /raison d'être./

From my experience I agree with you.

--
Ray
UK

[occam]

On 21/04/2022 06:11, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Apr 2022 10:49:32 +1000, Peter Moylan
> <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 21/04/22 01:40, Paul Carmichael wrote:

>>> El Wed, 20 Apr 2022 16:02:58 +0100, HVS escribió:
>>>
>>>> (As evidence of my not-with-it-ness, I still stumble when I see "reach
>>>> out to" instead of "contact" -- a battle which I think has been
>>>> decisively lost.)
>>>

>>> "Reaching out" is an act of desperation, isn't it?
>>>
>>> Never mind. I'm sure it will go away.
>>
>> We no longer reach out. We share.
>
>
> And sometimes interact.
>

...even meet IRL ('in real life'). We must be very close to virtual
existence, if 'IRL' has become a thing.

[occam]

On 19/04/2022 17:09, Paul Carmichael wrote:
> Google just announced that they are going to "sunset" a product next
> year. In the body of the message they say they are going to "replace" it.
>
> "Sunset" = "Replace"?
>
> It's a new one on me.
>

New to me too. So we are saying 'sunset' is the new 'eclipse'?

[Ken Blake]

On 23 Apr 2022 08:46:10 GMT, Paul Carmichael <wibble...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>El Sat, 23 Apr 2022 09:51:49 +0200, occam escribió:
>
>> On 20/04/2022 17:02, HVS wrote:
>> .
>>>
>>> (As evidence of my not-with-it-ness, I still stumble when I see "reach
>>> out to" instead of "contact" -- a battle which I think has been
>>> decisively lost.)
>>>
>>>
>> 'Reach out' is a broadcast to the many, most of whom are unknown to the
>> initiator.
>
>
>Many times I have seen the message "Thanks for reaching out to (blah)".
>
>"Reach out" is definitely used to refer to contacting one person.

Yes. I think that's only way I've ever seen or heard it.

[Ken Blake]

On 23 Apr 2022 13:23:51 GMT, Paul Carmichael <wibble...@gmail.com>

wrote:

>El Sat, 23 Apr 2022 11:34:42 +0000, Lewis escribió:
>
>> In message <pan$608be$e6074969$de4f5de7$b7ed...@gmail.com> Paul
>> Carmichael <wibble...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> El Sat, 23 Apr 2022 09:51:49 +0200, occam escribió:
>>
>>>> On 20/04/2022 17:02, HVS wrote:
>>>> .
>>>>>
>>>>> (As evidence of my not-with-it-ness, I still stumble when I see
>>>>> "reach out to" instead of "contact" -- a battle which I think has
>>>>> been decisively lost.)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> 'Reach out' is a broadcast to the many, most of whom are unknown to
>>>> the initiator.
>>
>>
>>> Many times I have seen the message "Thanks for reaching out to (blah)".
>>
>>> "Reach out" is definitely used to refer to contacting one person.
>>
>> Is it? According to whom? And when?
>
>According to me. From my experience. Are you telling me I haven't seen
>this?
>
>>> Maybe it should mean what you say, but in reality...
>>
>> It reality, it means exactly what occam said.
>
>I don't care. I'm saying how it is used. Whether the usage is "correct"
>is another matter.
>
>That's what this thread is all about. It's actually what this ng is about.
>
>You say that "pissed" means annoyed. I say it means drunk.

And I say it sometimes means "annoyed" and sometimes means "drunk."

[Ken Blake]

On Sat, 23 Apr 2022 03:51:50 -0000 (UTC), wol...@bimajority.org
(Garrett Wollman) wrote:

>In article <oa766hh2pdgipetdi...@4ax.com>,
>Ken Blake <K...@invalid.news.com> wrote:
>>On 19 Apr 2022 16:25:33 GMT, Paul Carmichael <wibble...@gmail.com>
>>wrote:
>
>>>Oh. Back in my day, the verb was "end-of-life". It must have changed in
>>>the last 20 years.
>>
>>
>>Verb, not noun?
>>
>>John end-of-lived?
>
>Regular weak verb. "Juniper end-of-lifed that release train four
>years ago -- you really need to be on 18.3R3 at a minimum." Often
>abbreviated to "EOL" (whether adjective or deadjectival verb[1]).

OK, if you say so. But it's weird to me. I would never use it like
that.

[Ken Blake]

On 23 Apr 2022 08:50:14 GMT, Paul Carmichael <wibble...@gmail.com>

wrote:

>El Fri, 22 Apr 2022 14:26:45 -0700, Ken Blake escribió:
>
>> On 19 Apr 2022 16:25:33 GMT, Paul Carmichael <wibble...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>El Tue, 19 Apr 2022 15:49:08 +0000, Stefan Ram escribió:
>>>
>>>> Paul Carmichael <wibble...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>"Sunset" = "Replace"?
>>>>
>>>> In software, sunsetting means the planned cancellation or phasing
>>>> out of a product or service.
>>>>
>>>> This is a word from product lifecycle management.
>>>
>>>
>>>Oh. Back in my day, the verb was "end-of-life". It must have changed in
>>>the last 20 years.
>>
>>
>> Verb, not noun?
>>
>> John end-of-lived?
>
>Verb. Much used by big software companies back when I was a programmer.

Not when I was a programmer (although I never worked for a big
software company).

[Sam Plusnet]

On 23-Apr-22 14:23, Paul Carmichael wrote:
> El Sat, 23 Apr 2022 11:34:42 +0000, Lewis escribió:
>
>> In message <pan$608be$e6074969$de4f5de7$b7ed...@gmail.com> Paul
>> Carmichael <wibble...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> El Sat, 23 Apr 2022 09:51:49 +0200, occam escribió:
>>
>>>> On 20/04/2022 17:02, HVS wrote:
>>>> .
>>>>>
>>>>> (As evidence of my not-with-it-ness, I still stumble when I see
>>>>> "reach out to" instead of "contact" -- a battle which I think has
>>>>> been decisively lost.)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> 'Reach out' is a broadcast to the many, most of whom are unknown to
>>>> the initiator.
>>
>>
>>> Many times I have seen the message "Thanks for reaching out to (blah)".
>>
>>> "Reach out" is definitely used to refer to contacting one person.
>>
>> Is it? According to whom? And when?
>
> According to me. From my experience. Are you telling me I haven't seen
> this?
>
>>> Maybe it should mean what you say, but in reality...
>>
>> It reality, it means exactly what occam said.
>
> I don't care. I'm saying how it is used. Whether the usage is "correct"
> is another matter.

Further. Who gets to say what is "correct" or "incorrect" usage?

Whilst some people might like to pretend they can do so, they ain't
foolin' nobody.


--
Sam Plusnet

[Sam Plusnet]

Certainly not. When it comes to such terms it's:

"Eclipse first, the rest nowhere"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eclipse_(horse)

--
Sam Plusnet

[occam]

here is the other way:

https://reachouttothecommunity.co.uk/

[occam]

https://au.reachout.com/online-community

[Snidely]

Just this Saturday, Ken Blake puzzled about:

Did you advertise a regular release schedule and how long support would
be provided?

/dps

--
"First thing in the morning, before I have coffee, I read the obits, If
I'm not in it, I'll have breakfast." -- Carl Reiner, to CBS News in
2015.

[Lewis]

I asked for your cites for your claim.

> It's so kind of you to tell us we're making this up. Or something.

Feel free to have some supporting evidence, but this is not how "reach
out" or "reaching out" is used, it is used for individuals, groups, and
organizations. All the time.

--
Quis custodiet opsos custodes

[Lewis]

Very odd, as :reach out to us" is extremely common.

<https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22reach%20out%20to%20us%22>

Politicians are constantly reaching out to young voters, or old voters,
or whatever. Churches are desperate to bolster declining membership by
reaching out to young families. Etc. Etc.


--
YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN
THEY BECOME? --Hogfather

[musika]

So what? You and Lewis said it ONLY applied to a group. Three people
have told you that they have seen/heard it applied to an individual.

--
Ray
UK

[Ken Blake]

On Sat, 23 Apr 2022 19:35:07 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
<g.k...@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:

>In message <qp586hhdv6tv28s5v...@4ax.com> Ken Blake <K...@invalid.news.com> wrote:
>> On 23 Apr 2022 08:46:10 GMT, Paul Carmichael <wibble...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>
>>>El Sat, 23 Apr 2022 09:51:49 +0200, occam escribió:
>>>
>>>> On 20/04/2022 17:02, HVS wrote:
>>>> .
>>>>>
>>>>> (As evidence of my not-with-it-ness, I still stumble when I see "reach
>>>>> out to" instead of "contact" -- a battle which I think has been
>>>>> decisively lost.)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> 'Reach out' is a broadcast to the many, most of whom are unknown to the
>>>> initiator.
>>>
>>>
>>>Many times I have seen the message "Thanks for reaching out to (blah)".
>>>
>>>"Reach out" is definitely used to refer to contacting one person.
>
>
>> Yes. I think that's only way I've ever seen or heard it.
>
>Very odd, as :reach out to us" is extremely common.

Maybe, but that's not my experience.

[Ken Blake]

On Sat, 23 Apr 2022 20:39:23 +0100, musika <mUs...@NOSPAMexcite.com>
wrote:

Moreover the first five hits on a quick Google search of "reach out
to" are

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/reach out to (someone)
Reach out to (someone) Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster

2 : to try to get the attention and interest of (someone) He's
reaching out to young voters. Learn More About reach out to (someone).
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/reach-out-to-sb
REACH OUT (TO SB) | definition in the Cambridge English Dictionary

4 days ago ... to try to communicate with a person or a group of
people, usually in order to help or involve them: The new mayor is
reaching out to inner city ...
https://www.macmillandictionary.com/us/dictionary/american/reach-out-to
REACH OUT TO (phrasal verb) definition and synonyms - Macmillan ...

1. (reach out to someone) to offer help to someone. We are reaching
out to the most vulnerable members of the community. Synonyms and
related words. + -. To ...
https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/reach+out+for+something
Reach out for something - Idioms by The Free Dictionary

1. To attempt to make contact with someone, especially in search of or
to offer help, guidance, comfort, or support. I've tried reaching ...
https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/reach+out+to+someone
Reach out to someone - Idioms by The Free Dictionary

reach out to (one) ... To make contact with one, especially in search
of or to offer help, guidance, comfort, or support. I've tried
reaching out to her, but she ...

[Ken Blake]

On Sat, 23 Apr 2022 12:27:21 -0700, Snidely <snide...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Just this Saturday, Ken Blake puzzled about:
>> On 23 Apr 2022 08:50:14 GMT, Paul Carmichael <wibble...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> El Fri, 22 Apr 2022 14:26:45 -0700, Ken Blake escribió:
>>>
>>>> On 19 Apr 2022 16:25:33 GMT, Paul Carmichael <wibble...@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> El Tue, 19 Apr 2022 15:49:08 +0000, Stefan Ram escribió:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Paul Carmichael <wibble...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>> "Sunset" = "Replace"?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In software, sunsetting means the planned cancellation or phasing
>>>>>> out of a product or service.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is a word from product lifecycle management.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh. Back in my day, the verb was "end-of-life". It must have changed in
>>>>> the last 20 years.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Verb, not noun?
>>>>
>>>> John end-of-lived?
>>>
>>> Verb. Much used by big software companies back when I was a programmer.
>>
>>
>> Not when I was a programmer (although I never worked for a big
>> software company).
>
>Did you advertise a regular release schedule and how long support would
>be provided?

No. My programming wasn't sold; it was used by the companies I
programmed for.

[lar3ryca]

MyE:
pissed = drunk
pissed off = annoyed

[Paul Wolff]

On Sat, 23 Apr 2022, at 14:13:50, lar3ryca posted:

>On 2022-04-23 09:14, Ken Blake wrote:
>> On 23 Apr 2022 13:23:51 GMT, Paul Carmichael <wibble...@gmail.com>
>>>

>>> You say that "pissed" means annoyed. I say it means drunk.
>> And I say it sometimes means "annoyed" and sometimes means "drunk."
>
>MyE:
>pissed = drunk
>pissed off = annoyed
>

Come on, there's that half-inch elephant in the room. Pissed = urinated.
And:
Pissed about = acted inconsequentially.
Pissed down = rained heavily.
--
Paul (a different one)

[Tony Cooper]

The usages of "eclipse" not referring to the solar system that I've
seen usually are in the past tense: eclipsed.

"Johnson's time eclipsed the record of 10.9"

It's used to mean "completely covered" in the sense that the new time
completely removes the old record time from view. The old record time
will no longer appear in the stats.

It's used after the fact. I would not expect to see "Johnson will
eclipse the old record".

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

[Tony Cooper]

I agree, but I also think we use "He's really pissed!" to indicate
that he's very annoyed.

[Mark Brader]

"Hibou":
> In this case, the question is: what is a sunset? What are the
> connotations of the word? In my view, using it to mean 'discontinue' is
> naff. It reminds me of the jargon our high heid yins...

Clear enough in context, but a new expression to me.

> used to use after
> attending courses in the latest management fad. We lesser mortals
> listened and held our tongues - but « Un homme qui se tait n'en pense
> pas moins » (I've never been able to translate that cleanly).

How about "Not speaking does not mean not thinking"?
--
Mark Brader | "I thought at first that you had done something clever,
Toronto | but I see that there was nothing in it, after all."
m...@vex.net | "I begin to think, Watson, that I make a mistake
| in explaining." --Doyle

[Lewis]

That's normal BrE, no?

'pissed' is contextual for me, if I am talking about drinking, I will
use it to mean very drunk, but otherwise it means annoyed.

Pissed off is more angry than annoyed, however.

--
All our loves are first loves

[Lewis]

In message <TGj3Gh2o...@wolff.co.uk> Paul Wolff <boun...@thiswontwork.wolff.co.uk> wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Apr 2022, at 14:13:50, lar3ryca posted:
>>On 2022-04-23 09:14, Ken Blake wrote:
>>> On 23 Apr 2022 13:23:51 GMT, Paul Carmichael <wibble...@gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>> You say that "pissed" means annoyed. I say it means drunk.
>>> And I say it sometimes means "annoyed" and sometimes means "drunk."
>>
>>MyE:
>>pissed = drunk
>>pissed off = annoyed
>>
> Come on, there's that half-inch elephant in the room. Pissed = urinated.

Almost never in my use.

> Pissed about = acted inconsequentially.
> Pissed down = rained heavily.

Yes.

--
Tragic heroes always moan when the gods take an interest in them, but
it's the people the gods ignore who get the really tough deals.
--Mort

[Lewis]

No. I questioned the statement that it applied only to individuals.

--
£1,236

[musika]

That might have been in your mind but it wasn't in your words.

"'Reach out' is a broadcast to the many, most of whom are unknown to the
initiator."

An "also" would have helped.

--
Ray
UK

[Peter Moylan]

That made me think of "pissed as a newt". I used to think that newts
must have had an enormous bladder capacity, but that theory doesn't hold
water. (And neither does the newt.) Googling found me five different
explanations for the origin of the phrase, each of them inconsistent
with the others.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

[Madhu]

* <5ec5195a-c2a3-406d-bae6-6ccd41849f1cn @googlegroups.com> :
Wrote on Fri, 22 Apr 2022 14:00:50 -0700 (PDT):
> On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 9:25:38 AM UTC-7, Paul Carmichael wrote:
>> El Tue, 19 Apr 2022 15:49:08 +0000, Stefan Ram escribió: Oh. Back in

>> my day, the verb was "end-of-life". It must have changed in the last
>> 20 years.

> I think "end of life" is mainly used of late for people who are dying,
> including those who choose "MAID" -- medical assistance in dying --
> rather than wait for some gruesome illness to do the job.

Certainly, (with End-of-Life drugs as a specific category), but EOL is
alive and flourishing well in software - look at cdn.kernel.org or
python.org or any linux distro site. EOL is everywhere. technically EOL
is part of the complex and dishonest strategy to remove value from
old-software, and to introduce the same problems all over again and to
profit from that.