Chinese Burns?
Demetrius Zeluff
Areff
> Why are Chinese Burns called Chinese Burns?
They were called Indian burns when I were a lad, if we mean the same
t'ing.
--
CyberCypher
> Why are Chinese Burns called Chinese Burns?
What are they?
--
Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor.
For email, replace numbers with English alphabet.
Tony Cooper
<cyber...@19-16-25-13-01-03.com> wrote:
>Demetrius Zeluff wrote on 13 Jun 2004:
>
>> Why are Chinese Burns called Chinese Burns?
>
>What are they?
I don't know what the poster thinks they are, but I would think of a
"Chinese burn" to be another name for an "Indian burn". Both are
given by taking someone else's wrist in your two hands and - gripping
tightly - quickly turning your hands in opposite directions.
An "Indian rub" is done with the knuckles on someone's scalp. We
called them "Indian rubs" long before the term "noogie" came into
play.
Now that I've identified both terms, I'll sit back and wait for the
expected responses that (a) describe completely different actions for
all terms, (b) insist that the terms I've used are regional or
familial, (c) provide different terms for the actions I've listed, (d)
insist that my terminology indicates that I am a racist, and (e)
chastise me for not hyphenating something.
Areff
> An "Indian rub" is done with the knuckles on someone's scalp. We
> called them "Indian rubs" long before the term "noogie" came into
> play.
I've never heard them called "Indian rubs". "Noogies" was popularized by
_Saturday Night Live_, which also popularized, with _Happy Days_, the term
"nerd". _Happy Days_ (re)popularized "cool" (Fonzie Thesis) and
"chick".
> Now that I've identified both terms, I'll sit back and wait for the
> expected responses that (a) describe completely different actions for
> all terms, (b) insist that the terms I've used are regional or
> familial, (c) provide different terms for the actions I've listed, (d)
> insist that my terminology indicates that I am a racist,
Well, I think there's something para-racist about these terms "Indian rub"
and "Indian burn" and "Chinese burn", yes.
--
Spehro Pefhany
<cyber...@19-16-25-13-01-03.com> wrote:
>Demetrius Zeluff wrote on 13 Jun 2004:
>
>> Why are Chinese Burns called Chinese Burns?
>
>What are they?
It appears to be another name for an "Indian burn".
http://wordwizard.com/clubhouse/founddiscuss1.asp?Num=5838
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
sp...@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
Tony Cooper
>Tony Cooper wrote:
>> An "Indian rub" is done with the knuckles on someone's scalp. We
>> called them "Indian rubs" long before the term "noogie" came into
>> play.
>
>I've never heard them called "Indian rubs". "Noogies" was popularized by
>_Saturday Night Live_, which also popularized, with _Happy Days_, the term
>"nerd". _Happy Days_ (re)popularized "cool" (Fonzie Thesis) and
>"chick".
Need I point out that I was giving and getting Indian rubs when Lorne
Michaels was not yet born or still in the toddler stage? Besides,
he's Canadian and not a Hoosier.
Also, need I point out that "Happy Days" was greatly influenced by the
New Yawker Garry Marshall? It's well-known - especially by aue
readers - that New Yawkers have strange ideas about what the rest of
the country says and does.
>> Now that I've identified both terms, I'll sit back and wait for the
>> expected responses that (a) describe completely different actions for
>> all terms, (b) insist that the terms I've used are regional or
>> familial, (c) provide different terms for the actions I've listed, (d)
>> insist that my terminology indicates that I am a racist,
>
>Well, I think there's something para-racist about these terms "Indian rub"
>and "Indian burn" and "Chinese burn", yes.
How about "Dutch rub"?
Robert Lieblich
>
> Now that I've identified both terms, I'll sit back and wait for the
> expected responses that (a) describe completely different actions for
> all terms, (b) insist that the terms I've used are regional or
> familial, (c) provide different terms for the actions I've listed, (d)
> insist that my terminology indicates that I am a racist, and (e)
> chastise me for not hyphenating something.
All of the above.
--
Liebs
Who also buys the giant economy sizes
Areff
> On 13 Jun 2004 15:55:57 GMT, Areff <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>>Tony Cooper wrote:
>>> An "Indian rub" is done with the knuckles on someone's scalp. We
>>> called them "Indian rubs" long before the term "noogie" came into
>>> play.
>>
>>I've never heard them called "Indian rubs". "Noogies" was popularized by
>>_Saturday Night Live_, which also popularized, with _Happy Days_, the term
>>"nerd". _Happy Days_ (re)popularized "cool" (Fonzie Thesis) and
>>"chick".
>
> Need I point out that I was giving and getting Indian rubs when Lorne
> Michaels was not yet born or still in the toddler stage? Besides,
> he's Canadian and not a Hoosier.
Sure, but I meant, and my use of "was" rather than "were" certainly makes
clear that I meant, that "noogies" the *term* was popularized by _Saturday
Night Live_ (aka _NBC's Saturday Night_).
> Also, need I point out that "Happy Days" was greatly influenced by the
> New Yawker Garry Marshall?
You are correct, sir. He modeled the Fonzie character on himself.
Originally Arthur Fonzarelli was to be Arthur Marsciarelli (Marshall's
original surname [= BrE 'the name that is furthest from one's Christian
name']). BTW, Gary (isn't it Gary?) Marshall was born in Brooklyn (Fourth
Largest City in America).
--
Robert Lieblich
[ ... ]
> You are correct, sir. He modeled the Fonzie character on himself.
> Originally Arthur Fonzarelli was to be Arthur Marsciarelli (Marshall's
> original surname [= BrE 'the name that is furthest from one's Christian
> name']). BTW, Gary (isn't it Gary?) Marshall was born in Brooklyn (Fourth
> Largest City in America).
And sounds like it.
IMDB gives his name as "Garry Marshall" but says he has also been
credited as "Gary Marshall." Penny Marshall ("Laverne") is his
sister. IMDB doesn't seem to know they were originally named
"Marsciarelli, but other sites confirm this.
I guess they aren't Jewish, even though they ought to be.
--
Liebs
Schlemiel, schlimazel
Liz
8<
> Now that I've identified both terms, I'll sit back and wait for the
> expected responses that (a) describe completely different actions for
> all terms, (b) insist that the terms I've used are regional or
> familial, (c) provide different terms for the actions I've listed, (d)
> insist that my terminology indicates that I am a racist, and (e)
> chastise me for not hyphenating something.
Hope I didn't keep you waiting too long. Here goes:
(a) Chinese burns mean over done. And to make an Indian rub:
mix a teaspoon each of ground coriander, ginger, turmeric, cumin,
paprika, and salt with 1/2 teaspoon each of ground cardamom
and cayenne pepper, along with 2 minced garlic cloves.
(e) Oh dash it!
Demetrius Zeluff
news:8gtoc0h58knn3qg4j...@4ax.com:
> On 13 Jun 2004 15:07:12 GMT, CyberCypher
> <cyber...@19-16-25-13-01-03.com> wrote:
>
>>Demetrius Zeluff wrote on 13 Jun 2004:
>>
>>> Why are Chinese Burns called Chinese Burns?
>>
>>What are they?
>
> I don't know what the poster thinks they are, but I would think of a
> "Chinese burn" to be another name for an "Indian burn". Both are
> given by taking someone else's wrist in your two hands and - gripping
> tightly - quickly turning your hands in opposite directions.
Yes, that's exactly what I mean. We didn't have 'wedgies' where and when I
was growing up. We did have Chinese Burns.
[snip]
Demetrius Zeluff
> On 13 Jun 2004 15:55:57 GMT, Areff <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
[snip]
>>Well, I think there's something para-racist about these terms "Indian
>>rub" and "Indian burn" and "Chinese burn", yes.
I'm not sure what you mean by para-racist; is that racist but used by
people who don't know it is?
> How about "Dutch rub"?
Rub and a Tug, or Morrocan Gold?
Areff
> IMDB gives his name as "Garry Marshall" but says he has also been
> credited as "Gary Marshall." Penny Marshall ("Laverne") is his
> sister. IMDB doesn't seem to know they were originally named
> "Marsciarelli, but other sites confirm this.
>
> I guess they aren't Jewish, even though they ought to be.
Note that Fonzie himself (who was played by Henry Winkler, who is
Jewish) had a Jewish mother, or so it was implied (by the references to
his "Grandma Nussbaum").
--
Mike Lyle
> On 13 Jun 2004 15:07:12 GMT, the renowned CyberCypher
> <cyber...@19-16-25-13-01-03.com> wrote:
>
> >Demetrius Zeluff wrote on 13 Jun 2004:
> >
> >> Why are Chinese Burns called Chinese Burns?
> >
> >What are they?
>
>
> It appears to be another name for an "Indian burn".
>
> http://wordwizard.com/clubhouse/founddiscuss1.asp?Num=5838
A French kiss is better.
Mike.
John Dean
Yes - it's the same stable as 'Chinese Fire Drill' (aka Polish Fire
Drill etc) and 'Chinese Wall'. The point of the 'Chinese burn' was that
it didn't actually burn you, though it felt as though it did.
I did wonder if Chinese Burns was an associate of Chinese Gordon though.
--
John Dean
Oxford
Joe Manfre
> Note that Fonzie himself (who was played by Henry Winkler, who is
> Jewish) had a Jewish mother, or so it was implied (by the references
> to his "Grandma Nussbaum").
Now you're making me think of the last panel of this recent episode of
the world's greatest online comic strip, Achewood:
http://achewood.com/index.php?date=05142004
You kind of have to read a whole lot of Achewood before it starts to
make sense, though. I think it started hitting its stride about six
months in, at the beginning of Teodor's party (the strip for March 12,
2002).
JM
R H Draney
>
>Note that Fonzie himself (who was played by Henry Winkler, who is
>Jewish) had a Jewish mother, or so it was implied (by the references to
>his "Grandma Nussbaum").
"Grandma Nussbaum" appeared in at least one episode, and when someone appeared
to question the name, she simply said "I've been married more than once"....r
Areff
Aha... I did not know that!
--
Mark Brader
>>> Why are Chinese Burns called Chinese Burns?
> I don't know what the poster thinks they are, but I would think of a
> "Chinese burn" to be another name for an "Indian burn". Both are
> given by taking someone else's wrist in your two hands and - gripping
> tightly - quickly turning your hands in opposite directions.
It's not a practice I've heard about very much, but when I have, the
name I learned for it was "Chinese sunburn". I see from the Web that
this is very little used, and that "Indian sunburn" is another variant.
--
Mark Brader | "Perl is a minimalist language at heart.
Toronto | It's just minimalistic about weird things
m...@vex.net | compared to your average language." -- Larry Wall
Steve Hayes
wrote:
>Why are Chinese Burns called Chinese Burns?
What are Chinese Burns?
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Michael West
> On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 08:59:18 -0500, Demetrius Zeluff <2876...@tmicha.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Why are Chinese Burns called Chinese Burns?
>
> What are Chinese Burns?
If they are like what we called "Indian burns",
they are administered upon smaller boys (I suppose
a younger sister might suffice) by grabbing one of
their wrists in both hands and then rotating the hands
in opposite directions while squeezing.
--
Michael West
Melbourne, Australia
Robert Lieblich
My wife's late mother was Billye Del Medico on her death
certificate. She was born Bella Strausberg, and her first husband
was Benjamin Waterstone. Her second husband was Pat Del Medico
(actually Pasquale, of course). She cooked a mean marinara gravy
(usually with zitis) and could curse with equal fluency in Yiddish
and Italian. And her deep Bronx accent gave no hint of her ethnic
background.
AFAIC, Penny and Garry Marshall are Jewish, actual ethnicity be
damned.
--
Liebs
Sadly, not even a little bit Italian
Steve Hayes
wrote:
>On 13 Jun 2004 15:07:12 GMT, CyberCypher
><cyber...@19-16-25-13-01-03.com> wrote:
>
>>Demetrius Zeluff wrote on 13 Jun 2004:
>>
>>> Why are Chinese Burns called Chinese Burns?
>>
>>What are they?
>
>I don't know what the poster thinks they are, but I would think of a
>"Chinese burn" to be another name for an "Indian burn". Both are
>given by taking someone else's wrist in your two hands and - gripping
>tightly - quickly turning your hands in opposite directions.
Ah, that is what I know as a "Chinese bangle".
I don't know why it's called "Chinese", but the "bangle" is pretty obvious.
>Now that I've identified both terms, I'll sit back and wait for the
>expected responses that (a) describe completely different actions for
>all terms, (b) insist that the terms I've used are regional or
>familial, (c) provide different terms for the actions I've listed, (d)
>insist that my terminology indicates that I am a racist, and (e)
>chastise me for not hyphenating something.
I hope I've complied with (c).
Steve Hayes
>Note that Fonzie himself (who was played by Henry Winkler, who is
>Jewish) had a Jewish mother, or so it was implied (by the references to
>his "Grandma Nussbaum").
Most Nussbaums I know are Mennonites.
Areff
> My wife's late mother was Billye Del Medico on her death
> certificate. She was born Bella Strausberg, and her first husband
> was Benjamin Waterstone. Her second husband was Pat Del Medico
> (actually Pasquale, of course). She cooked a mean marinara gravy
> (usually with zitis)
Ziti*s*?
> and could curse with equal fluency in Yiddish
> and Italian. And her deep Bronx accent gave no hint of her ethnic
> background.
That's probably partly because "Everyone in the Bronx sounds Jewish", as
an old New York proverb puts it. Whether Bill Labov has investigated this
matter I cannot say.
BTW, regarding the 'oregano' thread, the famous "Medici" family name is
often mispronounced Over Here with the penult syllable stressed.
--
Professor Redwine
Depends who it's from.
--
Redwine
Hamburg
(previously: Berlin, Northants, Derbs, Staffs, NSW, Tasmania,
Melbourne, rural Victoria, in that and many other orders)
Aaron J. Dinkin
> Areff wrote:
>
>> Well, I think there's something para-racist about these terms "Indian
>> rub" and "Indian burn" and "Chinese burn", yes.
>
> Yes - it's the same stable as 'Chinese Fire Drill' (aka Polish Fire
> Drill etc) and 'Chinese Wall'. The point of the 'Chinese burn' was that
> it didn't actually burn you, though it felt as though it did.
What's "Chinese Wall"?
-Aaron J. Dinkin
Dr. Whom
david56
To me, a Chinese Wall is an invisible barrier through which
information may not flow. In the IT world, we have Chinese Walls
between different groups of staff who develop separate anti-virus
engines within the same company (to make sure that they are
completely different). In the finance world, a Chinese Wall
separates groups working for the same bank whose clients' interests
would clash (e.g. one group backs takeovers and another group
publishes tips to buy shares (=US stocks) which are likely to be
subject to takeovers).
--
David
=====
Professor Redwine
My former lawyer claimed to have a Chinese Wall in her brain when she
represented both my ex-wife and me in our first go at divorce proceedings.
I suspect she wasn't far wrong - she certainly had rocks, or concrete, or
something equally useful in the place of the prefrontal cortex. I only
found out she had accepted my wife as a client when I received post from
her. To be precise, my lawyer (Ms A) wrote to me, informing me that
she had received a letter from my wife's lawyer (Ms A), and explaining
that she was preparing a draft reply, which she would then send to herself
to be passed on, in turn, to my wife.
Ray Heindl
> On 13 Jun 2004 15:07:12 GMT, CyberCypher
> <cyber...@19-16-25-13-01-03.com> wrote:
>
>>Demetrius Zeluff wrote on 13 Jun 2004:
>>
>>> Why are Chinese Burns called Chinese Burns?
>>
>>What are they?
>
> I don't know what the poster thinks they are, but I would think of
> a "Chinese burn" to be another name for an "Indian burn". Both
> are given by taking someone else's wrist in your two hands and -
> gripping tightly - quickly turning your hands in opposite
> directions.
I've always heard that called "Indian rope burn", though I have no idea
how a rope enters into it.
> An "Indian rub" is done with the knuckles on someone's scalp. We
> called them "Indian rubs" long before the term "noogie" came into
> play.
Also called "Dutch rub", though a Dutch gentleman I met recently had
never heard of either the term or the activity. But I've always
thought that "noogies" involved striking, rather than rubbing, the head
with the knuckles.
MWCD-11 says differently, however:
"a light blow or jab, usually to a person's head, back, or upper arm
and accompanied by a twisting motion, with the extended knuckle of the
curled-up second or third finger: done as a gesture of affection or
painfully as a prank"
On the other hand, RHUD has this:
"a light blow or jab, usually to a person's head, back, or upper arm
and accompanied by a twisting motion, with the extended knuckle of the
curled-up second or third finger: done as a gesture of affection or
painfully as a prank"
--
Ray Heindl
(remove the Xs to reply to: rahe...@xnccwx.net)
Areff
> To me, a Chinese Wall is an invisible barrier through which
> information may not flow. In the IT world, we have Chinese Walls
> between different groups of staff who develop separate anti-virus
> engines within the same company (to make sure that they are
> completely different). In the finance world, a Chinese Wall
> separates groups working for the same bank whose clients' interests
> would clash (e.g. one group backs takeovers and another group
> publishes tips to buy shares (=US stocks) which are likely to be
> subject to takeovers).
As Prof. Redwine's posting indicates, it's also used in the legal world.
A Chinese wall can be set up within a law firm as a solution to
ethically-problematic conflicts of interest.
I had never thought, prior to John Dean's posting, that such terms as
'Chinese wall' and 'Indian burn' were as racist in origin as I now suppose
they are. For example, I assumed that 'Chinese wall' was an odd reference
to 'Great Wall of China', and I think I thought that 'Indian burn' had
something to do with the resultant redness of skin.
--
david56
I'm fairly certain that it isn't permitted for divorcing couples to
employ the same solicitor in the UK. Not that I have any experience,
you understand.
--
David
=====
Professor Redwine
Indeed. This took place in the UK, David, although I was by that time
resident in Germany. Needless to say, we both dumped the legal office in
question very quickly.
Robert Lieblich
>
> Robert Lieblich wrote:
> > My wife's late mother was Billye Del Medico on her death
> > certificate. She was born Bella Strausberg, and her first husband
> > was Benjamin Waterstone. Her second husband was Pat Del Medico
> > (actually Pasquale, of course). She cooked a mean marinara gravy
> > (usually with zitis)
> Ziti*s*?
She said "zitis." I assumed she got it from Pat's sisters, who
taught her how to prepare Italian dishes.
>
> > and could curse with equal fluency in Yiddish
> > and Italian. And her deep Bronx accent gave no hint of her ethnic
> > background.
>
> That's probably partly because "Everyone in the Bronx sounds Jewish", as
> an old New York proverb puts it.
That must be a *very* old proverb.
[ ... ]
Liebs
Bring on the marinara!
Areff
> Areff wrote:
>> That's probably partly because "Everyone in the Bronx sounds Jewish", as
>> an old New York proverb puts it.
>
> That must be a *very* old proverb.
I dunno. Ever hear former Bronx Borough President Fernando "Freddy"
Ferrer speak? He's young enough to be postwar. I think there's something
to this.
Back when Freddy Ferrer was in politics and trying to become mayor, it was
said that though he was a member of a cognizable postwar minority group
(as a Puerto Rican), he was the sort of fellow who could really appeal to
Jews and Italians and such. I think this may have had something to do
with his accent, as well as his moustache. I think he sort of looks like
your typical public school principal (= BrE 'state school headmaster'?
[ducking]) (NTTAWWT).
--
Steve Hayes
Thanks - as I noted in another message, I know that as a "Chines bangle".
Mark Browne
>
>I had never thought, prior to John Dean's posting, that such terms as
>'Chinese wall' and 'Indian burn' were as racist in origin as I now suppose
>they are. For example, I assumed that 'Chinese wall' was an odd reference
>to 'Great Wall of China',
Why would this be racist?
>and I think I thought that 'Indian burn' had
>something to do with the resultant redness of skin.
Although this one is obvious.
--
Mark Browne
If replying by email, please use the "Reply-To" address, as the
"From" address will be rejected
Areff
> On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, in alt.usage.english, Areff <m...@privacy.net> writes
>>
>>I had never thought, prior to John Dean's posting, that such terms as
>>'Chinese wall' and 'Indian burn' were as racist in origin as I now suppose
>>they are. For example, I assumed that 'Chinese wall' was an odd reference
>>to 'Great Wall of China',
>
> Why would this be racist?
What I think is racist, arguably, is 'Chinese wall' in the sense of 'not a
real wall, since we associate 'Chinese' with incompetence or inferiority'
or something like that -- I don't have a good sense of what's going on
with this or with usages like 'Chinese fire drill' but I gather that it's
sort of related to the Polish joke idea, which is something that was still
common when I were growing up.
--
Spehro Pefhany
wrote:
>Mark Browne wrote:
>> On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, in alt.usage.english, Areff <m...@privacy.net> writes
>>>
>>>I had never thought, prior to John Dean's posting, that such terms as
>>>'Chinese wall' and 'Indian burn' were as racist in origin as I now suppose
>>>they are. For example, I assumed that 'Chinese wall' was an odd reference
>>>to 'Great Wall of China',
I had assumed (wrongly, it appears) that 'Chinese wall' was related to
the 'Chinese Room' gedankenexperiment.
>> Why would this be racist?
>
>What I think is racist, arguably, is 'Chinese wall' in the sense of 'not a
>real wall, since we associate 'Chinese' with incompetence or inferiority'
>or something like that -- I don't have a good sense of what's going on
>with this or with usages like 'Chinese fire drill' but I gather that it's
>sort of related to the Polish joke idea, which is something that was still
>common when I were growing up.
But a Chinese Wall *is* supposed to be an effective wall, so I don't
see how the term could reasonably be construed as being racist. It's
just a metaphor, no?
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
sp...@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
John Dean
> On 15 Jun 2004 16:41:14 GMT, the renowned Areff <m...@privacy.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Mark Browne wrote:
>>> On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, in alt.usage.english, Areff <m...@privacy.net>
>>> writes
>>>>
>>>> I had never thought, prior to John Dean's posting, that such terms
>>>> as 'Chinese wall' and 'Indian burn' were as racist in origin as I
>>>> now suppose they are. For example, I assumed that 'Chinese wall'
>>>> was an odd reference to 'Great Wall of China',
>
> I had assumed (wrongly, it appears) that 'Chinese wall' was related to
> the 'Chinese Room' gedankenexperiment.
>
>>> Why would this be racist?
>>
>> What I think is racist, arguably, is 'Chinese wall' in the sense of
>> 'not a real wall, since we associate 'Chinese' with incompetence or
>> inferiority' or something like that -- I don't have a good sense of
>> what's going on with this or with usages like 'Chinese fire drill'
>> but I gather that it's sort of related to the Polish joke idea,
>> which is something that was still common when I were growing up.
>
> But a Chinese Wall *is* supposed to be an effective wall, so I don't
> see how the term could reasonably be construed as being racist. It's
> just a metaphor, no?
>
supposed to 'imagine' there is a wall between them and the people they
see and talk to (about other things) every day. So it isn't a real wall,
but you're supposed to be credulous enough to believe that it is there.
If it's *not* a racist usage, then what explanation do you think would
account for it being called a *Chinese* wall?. As opposed to a
straightforward 'invisible wall' or 'imaginary wall'?
Or, put more simply, whence do you imagine the originators and users get
'chinese'?
--
John Dean
Oxford
rzed
news:canbsn$jo6$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk:
> Spehro Pefhany wrote:
>> On 15 Jun 2004 16:41:14 GMT, the renowned Areff
>> <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
[...]
>> But a Chinese Wall *is* supposed to be an effective wall, so I
>> don't see how the term could reasonably be construed as being
>> racist. It's just a metaphor, no?
>>
> People in a firm (who are not supposed to share information) are
> supposed to 'imagine' there is a wall between them and the
> people they see and talk to (about other things) every day. So
> it isn't a real wall, but you're supposed to be credulous enough
> to believe that it is there. If it's *not* a racist usage, then
> what explanation do you think would account for it being called
> a *Chinese* wall?. As opposed to a straightforward 'invisible
> wall' or 'imaginary wall'? Or, put more simply, whence do you
> imagine the originators and users get 'chinese'?
If you're suggesting that "Chinese" in relation to a wall comes
from some racist bent, then why "Chinese"? Would "French wall" be
equally racist? Why would such a phrase be unused, when surely
there are racists as antagonistic to the French as the supposed
anti-Chinese racists who came up with "Chinese wall"? Could it be
because there is in fact a rather notorious wall in China? Possibly
because it seems as though it should be a more apt metaphor than,
say, the Maginot Line?
--
rzed
Professor Redwine
Or, indeed the Ziegfried Line? Which reminds me, I need to do some washing...
Areff
I hadn't thought to look this up in the OED, but I just did, and they seem
to think it's an innocent thing, a reference to the Great Wall of China:
Chinese wall [after the defensive wall built between China and Mongolia
in the 3rd c. B.C.], (a) transf. and fig. an insurmountable barrier (to
understanding, etc.); (b) Stock Exchange, a prohibition against the
passing of confidential information from one department of a financial
institution to another; [...]
The citations they give seem to confirm this:
1907 C. J. BULLOCK Sel. Readings in Econ. xx. 672 The cheap prices of its
commodities are the heavy artillery with which it batters down all
*Chinese walls. 1934 T. S. ELIOT Eliz. Essays 22 After the erection of
the Chinese Wall of Milton, blank verse has suffered not only arrest but
retrogression. 1941 AUDEN New Year Let. II. 34 They fought over their
premises, Shut out from Eden by the bar And Chinese Wall of Barbara. 1941
KOESTLER Scum of Earth 269 It succumbed..to a social phenomenon, which it
might be appropriate to call the ‘Chinese Wall psychosis’. 1979 Amer.
Banker 25 Jan. 5/3 The Chinese Wall question has been raised anew. But
the Morgan spokesman says the bank sees no conflict. 1984 Nat. Westminster
Bank Q. Rev. Nov. 36 The increase in risk of conflict of interests
arising from the conglomeration of financial activities can be contained
by erecting ‘Chinese Walls’ among the various activities carried out by a
single firm.
So I guess we can continue to use "Chinese wall".
--
Areff
> I hadn't thought to look this up in the OED, but I just did, and they seem
> to think it's an innocent thing, a reference to the Great Wall of China:
>
> Chinese wall [after the defensive wall built between China and Mongolia
> in the 3rd c. B.C.], (a) transf. and fig. an insurmountable barrier (to
> understanding, etc.); (b) Stock Exchange, a prohibition against the
> passing of confidential information from one department of a financial
> institution to another; [...]
>
> The citations they give seem to confirm this:
>
> 1907 C. J. BULLOCK Sel. Readings in Econ. xx. 672 The cheap prices of its
> commodities are the heavy artillery with which it batters down all
ProQuest gives an 1825 usage of "the Chinese wall", referring to the
actual Great Wall.
I found something closer to a figurative sort of usage of "Chinese wall"
in this 1830 sentence:
Happy for them, if an impassable gulf, a Chinese wall, an adamantine
barrier could for ever have protected them from the ingress and
communication of the white race, their gold and their avarice, their
lawless love and their withering influence, their counsels and their new
train of thoughts, their excitements, schemes and passions, their new
habits and necessities originating from them; their power to inspire in
these simple people disrelish and disgust with their ancient ways,
without imparting better, and, above all, their accursed besom of
destruction, in the form of ardent spirits.
--
Tony Cooper
<spef...@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:
>On 15 Jun 2004 16:41:14 GMT, the renowned Areff <m...@privacy.net>
>wrote:
>
>>Mark Browne wrote:
>>> On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, in alt.usage.english, Areff <m...@privacy.net> writes
>>>>
>>>>I had never thought, prior to John Dean's posting, that such terms as
>>>>'Chinese wall' and 'Indian burn' were as racist in origin as I now suppose
>>>>they are. For example, I assumed that 'Chinese wall' was an odd reference
>>>>to 'Great Wall of China',
>
>I had assumed (wrongly, it appears) that 'Chinese wall' was related to
>the 'Chinese Room' gedankenexperiment.
>
>>> Why would this be racist?
>>
>>What I think is racist, arguably, is 'Chinese wall' in the sense of 'not a
>>real wall, since we associate 'Chinese' with incompetence or inferiority'
>>or something like that -- I don't have a good sense of what's going on
>>with this or with usages like 'Chinese fire drill' but I gather that it's
>>sort of related to the Polish joke idea, which is something that was still
>>common when I were growing up.
>
>But a Chinese Wall *is* supposed to be an effective wall, so I don't
>see how the term could reasonably be construed as being racist. It's
>just a metaphor, no?
>
"Racist" seems too strong a term. As with "Indian burn", "Chinese
burn",and "Dutch rub". It's the ideal place for the term "politically
incorrect". With our increased sensitivity and recognition that terms
can offend, these terms become incorrect. They should be phased out,
but not with shouts of "racist!".
There are those who do not like "politically incorrect", but the
"incorrect" aspect seems to fit in some instances.
Tony Cooper
>I hadn't thought to look this up in the OED, but I just did, and they seem
>to think it's an innocent thing, a reference to the Great Wall of China:
>
Yes, but "niggardly" is an innocent term and most in the US agree that
it's not a word to be chosen because it *can* offend. Whether or not
the offended person should be offended is beside the point.
Liz
>
> So I guess we can continue to use "Chinese wall".
Last time I checked, it was still standing.
John Dean
> "John Dean" <john...@frag.lineone.net> wrote in
> news:canbsn$jo6$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk:
>
>> Spehro Pefhany wrote:
>>> On 15 Jun 2004 16:41:14 GMT, the renowned Areff
>>> <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> [...]
>>> But a Chinese Wall *is* supposed to be an effective wall, so I
>>> don't see how the term could reasonably be construed as being
>>> racist. It's just a metaphor, no?
>>>
>> People in a firm (who are not supposed to share information) are
>> supposed to 'imagine' there is a wall between them and the
>> people they see and talk to (about other things) every day. So
>> it isn't a real wall, but you're supposed to be credulous enough
>> to believe that it is there. If it's *not* a racist usage, then
>> what explanation do you think would account for it being called
>> a *Chinese* wall?. As opposed to a straightforward 'invisible
>> wall' or 'imaginary wall'? Or, put more simply, whence do you
>> imagine the originators and users get 'chinese'?
>
> If you're suggesting that "Chinese" in relation to a wall comes
> from some racist bent, then why "Chinese"? Would "French wall" be
> equally racist?
Yes - assuming it implied there were people who believed an empty space
was a wall because they were of an intrinsically stupid nationality/
> Why would such a phrase be unused, when surely
> there are racists as antagonistic to the French as the supposed
> anti-Chinese racists who came up with "Chinese wall"?
Everyone gets a look in at the racist fair - French leave, Dutch
courage, Spanish practices ... Why one race is singled out in a
particular case over another is often difficult to see. Of course,
sometimes *everyone* got a look in. The French disease, the Spanish Pox
and the Naples canker were all the same thing.
> Could it be
> because there is in fact a rather notorious wall in China?
Why would the presence of a wall in China have any connection with a
metaphor involving the total *absence* of a wall?
I see OED ascribes the earliest use of Chinese Wall in this particular
sense to 'American Banker' in 1979. Many of the derogatory phrases
involving Chinese that Cassell's quotes are also thought to originate in
the US - where there was strong anti-Chinese feeling. eg Chinese copy,
Chinese fire drill, Chinese flush / straight, Chinese needlework,
Chinese rot, Chinese angle and Chinese B. The Antipodes provide other
examples - Chinese consumption, Chinese screwdriver, Chinese smoking and
Chinaman's shout.
You want some examples of the French being maligned? Sure. From the same
source - french (the verb), French aunt, French bath, "French by
injection", French dip, French dressing etc etc.
Yes, I know other languages return the favour - filer ą l'anglais and
all that.
I'm not suggesting anyone singled out the Chinese, but I'm proposing
that phrases that take in another nationality without any clear reason
should be looked at carefully.
--
John Dean
Oxford
John Dean
> The Chinese Wall question has been raised anew. But the Morgan
> spokesman says the bank sees no conflict. 1984 Nat. Westminster Bank
> Q. Rev. Nov. 36 The increase in risk of conflict of interests
> arising from the conglomeration of financial activities can be
> activities carried out by a single firm.
>
> So I guess we can continue to use "Chinese wall".
OED identify *two* meanings. (a) transf. and fig. an insurmountable
barrier (to understanding, etc.); (b) Stock Exchange, a prohibition
against the passing of confidential information from one department of a
financial institution to another.
(a) is the obvious, original meaning based literally on the Great Wall.
And I suggest the quotes up to and including 1941 have that meaning. The
quotes from 1979 relate to meaning (b) and, I contend, relate to a
non-existent barrier that only the foolish would believe was there but
which is, nonetheless, expected to interrupt the flow of information.
--
John Dean
Oxford
John Dean
It may be just me, but I can't see anything figurative in the sentence
you quote. 'adamantine' is as literally solid a barrier as you can have.
--
John Dean
Oxford
Spehro Pefhany
<john...@frag.lineone.net> wrote:
>People in a firm (who are not supposed to share information) are
>supposed to 'imagine' there is a wall between them and the people they
>see and talk to (about other things) every day. So it isn't a real wall,
>but you're supposed to be credulous enough to believe that it is there.
>If it's *not* a racist usage, then what explanation do you think would
>account for it being called a *Chinese* wall?. As opposed to a
>straightforward 'invisible wall' or 'imaginary wall'?
>Or, put more simply, whence do you imagine the originators and users get
>'chinese'?
The Chinese built the longest (ten thousand li, 'tis said) wall on
earth, of impressive durability, so calling a wall a "Chinese wall"
indicates that it possesses similar characteristics.
http://www.crystalinks.com/chinawallcloseup.gif
Spehro Pefhany
<tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>"Racist" seems too strong a term. As with "Indian burn", "Chinese
>burn",and "Dutch rub". It's the ideal place for the term "politically
>incorrect". With our increased sensitivity and recognition that terms
>can offend, these terms become incorrect. They should be phased out,
>but not with shouts of "racist!".
Is the term "German Potato Salad" politically incorrect?
John Dean
> On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 18:37:31 -0000, the renowned "John Dean"
> <john...@frag.lineone.net> wrote:
>
>> People in a firm (who are not supposed to share information) are
>> supposed to 'imagine' there is a wall between them and the people
>> they see and talk to (about other things) every day. So it isn't a
>> real wall, but you're supposed to be credulous enough to believe
>> that it is there. If it's *not* a racist usage, then what
>> explanation do you think would account for it being called a
>> *Chinese* wall?. As opposed to a straightforward 'invisible wall' or
>> 'imaginary wall'?
>> Or, put more simply, whence do you imagine the originators and users
>> get 'chinese'?
>
> The Chinese built the longest (ten thousand li, 'tis said) wall on
> earth, of impressive durability, so calling a wall a "Chinese wall"
> indicates that it possesses similar characteristics.
>
being implied?
Is there any resemblance to the Arizona cloudburst or the Arkansas
toothpick?
--
John Dean
Oxford
R H Draney
>
>The Chinese built the longest (ten thousand li, 'tis said) wall on
>earth, of impressive durability, so calling a wall a "Chinese wall"
>indicates that it possesses similar characteristics.
The term may come pre-skunked...I'm afraid that people here might confuse
Chinese with Japanese and picture shoji, a wall made of paper that continues to
stand only because there's a tacit agreement by all parties that it constitutes
a barrier....
By the way, is "ten thousand li" a literal measure or one of those instances
where Chinese uses "ten thousand" to mean "a great many"?...r
Tony Cooper
<spef...@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:
>On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 15:19:54 -0400, the renowned Tony Cooper
><tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>>"Racist" seems too strong a term. As with "Indian burn", "Chinese
>>burn",and "Dutch rub". It's the ideal place for the term "politically
>>incorrect". With our increased sensitivity and recognition that terms
>>can offend, these terms become incorrect. They should be phased out,
>>but not with shouts of "racist!".
>
>Is the term "German Potato Salad" politically incorrect?
>
I wouldn't say so. The usage has to describe something unpleasant or
conjure up the image of something unpleasant. All the examples I gave
are somewhat unpleasant.
John used "French dressing". I wouldn't agree with that. "French
letter" is not unpleasant, but it's not nice. "German chocolate cake"
is nice.
I draw a line somewhere when it comes to being sensitive. The line
wavers, but generally it divides what might offend and what I would
think would never offend. That's my own line, though, and not what I
suggest should be society's line.
Christopher Green
"Chinese fire drill" for a scene of chaotic panic is particularly
inept, since China had well-organized fire brigades early on. (Still,
the deadliest fire in history was a theater fire in Guangzhou (Canton)
in 1845: 1,670 deaths.)
--
Chris Green
Michael West
> If it's *not* a racist usage, then what explanation do you think would
> account for it being called a *Chinese* wall?.
It's a jocular or figurative reference to the Great Wall of China.
How is that racist? Is "Russian Dolls" racist?
Come to think of it, wasn't the building of the Great
Wall of China racist?
--
Michael West
Melbourne, Australia
Michael West
> OED identify *two* meanings. (a) transf. and fig. an insurmountable
> barrier (to understanding, etc.); (b) Stock Exchange, a prohibition
> against the passing of confidential information from one department of a
> financial institution to another.
> (a) is the obvious, original meaning based literally on the Great Wall.
> And I suggest the quotes up to and including 1941 have that meaning. The
> quotes from 1979 relate to meaning (b) and, I contend, relate to a
> non-existent barrier that only the foolish would believe was there but
> which is, nonetheless, expected to interrupt the flow of information.
That is not borne out in the quotes. There is noting in
the 1984 quote to suggest anything about "foolishness".
It simply means an administrative barrier.
If you believe that by "Chinese Wall" people mean
something to do with the Chinese being fools, then
how are you not a racist?
Michael West
> Spehro Pefhany filted:
>>
>> The Chinese built the longest (ten thousand li, 'tis said) wall on
>> earth, of impressive durability, so calling a wall a "Chinese wall"
>> indicates that it possesses similar characteristics.
>
> The term may come pre-skunked...I'm afraid that people here might confuse
> Chinese with Japanese and picture shoji, a wall made of paper that continues to
> stand only because there's a tacit agreement by all parties that it constitutes
> a barrier....
Well, if that's what some people think it means,
then, yes, the term is well and truly skunked.
The orginal meaning, in American business, was an
administrative barrier to prevent or strictly control
the flow of information between two segments
of the business.
This is the first I've heard of the "shoji"
interpretation. There should be two terms,
then -- Chinese wall and Japanese wall; one
being an effective barrier, the other, an illusory
barrier.
Note for Thought Police:
* Nothing * whatsoever to do with the character or
appearance of the people of China or Japan. We're
talking about *objects*, not people.
Michael West
> Spehro Pefhany wrote:
>> The Chinese built the longest (ten thousand li, 'tis said) wall on
>> earth, of impressive durability, so calling a wall a "Chinese wall"
>> indicates that it possesses similar characteristics.
>>
> And when it clearly *doesn't* (being imaginary) what do you imagine is
> being implied?
> Is there any resemblance to the Arizona cloudburst or the Arkansas
> toothpick?
The Chinese Wall in American business terminology
is administrative, *not* "imaginary.
Michael West
> Mark Browne wrote:
>> On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, in alt.usage.english, Areff <m...@privacy.net> writes
>>>
>>> I had never thought, prior to John Dean's posting, that such terms as
>>> 'Chinese wall' and 'Indian burn' were as racist in origin as I now suppose
>>> they are. For example, I assumed that 'Chinese wall' was an odd reference
>>> to 'Great Wall of China',
>>
>> Why would this be racist?
>
> What I think is racist, arguably, is 'Chinese wall' in the sense of 'not a
> real wall, since we associate 'Chinese' with incompetence or inferiority'
> or something like that --
Well, if you think that's what it means,
then yes, that's a racist interpretation.
But that isn't what it means.
Spehro Pefhany
<john...@frag.lineone.net> wrote:
>Spehro Pefhany wrote:
>> On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 18:37:31 -0000, the renowned "John Dean"
>> <john...@frag.lineone.net> wrote:
>>
>>> People in a firm (who are not supposed to share information) are
>>> supposed to 'imagine' there is a wall between them and the people
>>> they see and talk to (about other things) every day. So it isn't a
>>> real wall, but you're supposed to be credulous enough to believe
>>> that it is there. If it's *not* a racist usage, then what
>>> explanation do you think would account for it being called a
>>> *Chinese* wall?. As opposed to a straightforward 'invisible wall' or
>>> 'imaginary wall'?
>>> Or, put more simply, whence do you imagine the originators and users
>>> get 'chinese'?
>>
>> The Chinese built the longest (ten thousand li, 'tis said) wall on
>> earth, of impressive durability, so calling a wall a "Chinese wall"
>> indicates that it possesses similar characteristics.
>>
>And when it clearly *doesn't* (being imaginary) what do you imagine is
>being implied?
It's not imaginary, it's a metaphor. The real Great Wall of China
would make crummy barrier for information-- it's easy to get messages
from one side to the other.
If it doesn't meet up to the billing, that's a failure of the
implementation. I've certainly never heard to the term used
specifically to indicate a poor, substandard and miserable excuse for
a barrier, have you?
>Is there any resemblance to the Arizona cloudburst or the Arkansas
>toothpick?
I've experienced rather violent cloudbursts in Arizona, but I take it
that the term "Arizona cloudburst" is supposed to be ironic. Never
heard of an "Arkansas toothpick"-- a Google search ties it to the
Bowie knife. Is a "New York minute" (smallest minute in America)
supposed to be somehow inferior? I think not.
Ben Zimmer
From the same year is this citation from the Times of London ("Brussels
Papers", Nov. 29, 1830, pg. 1):
Such a measure ought not to be the fruit of inflamed
passions: we have interests to discuss with Holland,
-- account to settle; let us not raise up between it
and us a Chinese wall.
Earlier still from the Times ("Madame De Stael's Work", Nov. 12, 1813,
pg. 2):
"I suppose," says Madame De Stael, "we have not come
to that point, that we wish to build a great Chinese
wall round the literary world of France, to prevent
ideas from penetrating to them from abroad."
Michael West
> From the same year is this citation from the Times of London ("Brussels
> Papers", Nov. 29, 1830, pg. 1):
>
> Such a measure ought not to be the fruit of inflamed
> passions: we have interests to discuss with Holland,
> -- account to settle; let us not raise up between it
> and us a Chinese wall.
>
> Earlier still from the Times ("Madame De Stael's Work", Nov. 12, 1813,
> pg. 2):
>
> "I suppose," says Madame De Stael, "we have not come
> to that point, that we wish to build a great Chinese
> wall round the literary world of France, to prevent
> ideas from penetrating to them from abroad."
Thanks for those. They illustrate the meaning
that "Chinese wall" had when it was adopted in
American business: Policies and procedures designed
to STOP the flow of information.
If it has subsequently come to mean something
else, well, that's a shame, but that's the way
it goes. It certainly was never racist in intent,
but it's possible that people with racist notions
have co-opted the word to mean something else.
--
Michael West
Melbourne, Australia
"I'll have just the one kudo, thanks."
-- Dennis Callegari
John Dean
Perhaps I should have put quotes in the appropriate places. I thought
the general standard of comprehension here was better. It is the racists
who regard the Chinese as fools, not I. As well you know.
--
John Dean
Oxford
Michael West
> Perhaps I should have put quotes in the appropriate places. I thought
> the general standard of comprehension here was better. It is the racists
> who regard the Chinese as fools, not I. As well you know.
I know you are not a racist, and that's why
I'm baffled by the line you're taking on this,
which seems to fly in the face of facts.
But I've said in another post that if the term
has been co-opted in some sort of racist or
insulting way, then it's time to quit using it.
I just don't believe it's happened.
John Dean
When two lawyers in the same firm dealing with different sides of an
issue meet over a second, unrelated issue, it is assumed that their
professional ethics preclude any collusion over the first issue. They
are divided by an imaginary wall. That is what many call a 'Chinese
Wall'. 'Administrative' and 'imaginary' are not mutually exclusive
terms.
Though it's becoming apparent from a little Googling that 'Chinese Wall'
seems to have several different meanings. It's not impossible that there
are pondianian differences. I have seen the term used to describe the
physical re-location of people involved in an issue, and I wouldn't
regard that as a 'Chinese Wall' at all.
Anyway, here's a POV:
http://money.cnn.com/2002/04/29/commentary/bottomline/lashinsky/
"Here's an easy rule of thumb for being linguistically and culturally
sensitive: If it's possible a term might offend, use another.
To wit, I'm alerted that the extremely commonly used term "Chinese Wall"
is offensive to many folks in the financial and legal worlds who are of
Chinese ancestry.
This is a complex one. On Wall Street, the Chinese Wall refers to the
division between an investment banking division and the research
division, and comes from the Great Wall, one of China's great
accomplishments. No matter.
The expression isn't even accurate, of course, because the Great Wall is
supposedly impregnable. Migration from the research side to the
investment banking side of Wall Street brokerages, for example, happens
all the time. Seems like it'd just be easier to say "ethical wall" or
"firewall." What do you think?"
--
John Dean
Oxford
John Dean
I hear the term used to indicate a barrier that doesn't physically exist
but which nevertheless prevents information going from one side to the
other. As you say, the Great Wall does not fulfil this function.
Therefore, it seems to me, it is an unlikely source of the expression.
The point about the CW is it's supposed to work because people *believe*
it's there when (hyuk! hyuk!) it isn't. Now, what kind of people could
be persuaded that a physical barrier existed when it didn't? Would they
be like the people who were persuaded the Emperor wore nice clothes when
he didn't wear any? I think so. They would be foolish and gullible. Now,
what might be a useful shorthand racial epithet for people whose
perceptions of things run counter to ours (us USAns or Brits, that is).
Is there a class of people whose epithet is commonly used to denote
things that are laughably at odds with reality? Well, there are several.
Polish Wall, French Wall, Mexican Wall might all have been considered.
But Chinese Wall fits real good because, as it happens, there is an
*actual* well-known wall in China. So the term joins the poker players
"A 4 7 9 J" Chinese straight except, this time, there are convoluted
ways to excuse it.
>
>> Is there any resemblance to the Arizona cloudburst or the Arkansas
>> toothpick?
>
> I've experienced rather violent cloudbursts in Arizona, but I take it
> that the term "Arizona cloudburst" is supposed to be ironic. Never
> heard of an "Arkansas toothpick"-- a Google search ties it to the
> Bowie knife. Is a "New York minute" (smallest minute in America)
> supposed to be somehow inferior? I think not.
That emphasises the point that racial references are not necessarily
racist. They are (though rarely) complimentary. The New York minute is a
tribute to the NooYawkers' legendary hustle and bustle. Good
old-fashioned Yankee know-how says admiring things about Americans.
Teutonic thoroughness is admirable and the Germans rate kudos for being
deemed, stereotypically, to have something of a lock on it. French
dressing is a gastronomic treat.
The Arizona cloudburst is a sandstorm, the Arkansas toothpick is a
b-i-i-i-g knife (often a Bowie). Examples of phrases involving geography
being used to indicate the opposite of what they seem, at first glance,
to mean.
--
John Dean
Oxford
Spehro Pefhany
<john...@frag.lineone.net> wrote (quoted, actually):
>http://money.cnn.com/2002/04/29/commentary/bottomline/lashinsky/
>
>"Here's an easy rule of thumb for being linguistically and culturally
>sensitive: If it's possible a term might offend, use another.
>To wit, I'm alerted that the extremely commonly used term "Chinese Wall"
>is offensive to many folks in the financial and legal worlds who are of
>Chinese ancestry.
>
>This is a complex one. On Wall Street, the Chinese Wall refers to the
>division between an investment banking division and the research
>division, and comes from the Great Wall, one of China's great
>accomplishments. No matter.
>
>The expression isn't even accurate, of course, because the Great Wall is
>supposedly impregnable. Migration from the research side to the
>investment banking side of Wall Street brokerages, for example, happens
>all the time. Seems like it'd just be easier to say "ethical wall" or
>"firewall." What do you think?"
I think Mr. Lashinsky doesn't know much about Chinese history if he
thinks the Great Wall is or was "supposedly impregnable". Maybe he
should stick to yakking* about tech stocks.
Now, the term "Mongolian clusterfuck" is probably offensive to most
English-speaking people of Mongolian ancestory. They have also
successfully lobbied to stamp out the term "Mongoloid".
*It tastes like beef.
John Dean
*Now* you're getting the hang of it.
--
John Dean
Oxford
Mike Lyle
[...]
> Thanks for those. They illustrate the meaning
> that "Chinese wall" had when it was adopted in
> American business: Policies and procedures designed
> to STOP the flow of information.
>
> If it has subsequently come to mean something
> else, well, that's a shame, but that's the way
> it goes. It certainly was never racist in intent,
> but it's possible that people with racist notions
> have co-opted the word to mean something else.
Isn't that the point, though? We don't have to _intend_ racism: we
just _do_ it. I don't think this one is a pernicious example, but it
illustrates the problem.
Mike.
Mike Lyle
[...]
> that "Chinese wall" had when it was adopted in
> American business: Policies and procedures designed
> to STOP the flow of information.
>
> If it has subsequently come to mean something
> else, well, that's a shame, but that's the way
> it goes. It certainly was never racist in intent,
> but it's possible that people with racist notions
> have co-opted the word to mean something else.
Isn't that the point, though? We don't have to _intend_ racism: we
Michael West
That's what that other Mike Lyle said just a
minute ago. Were you paying attention?
Mike Lyle
[...]
> that "Chinese wall" had when it was adopted in
> American business: Policies and procedures designed
> to STOP the flow of information.
>
> If it has subsequently come to mean something
> else, well, that's a shame, but that's the way
> it goes. It certainly was never racist in intent,
> but it's possible that people with racist notions
> have co-opted the word to mean something else.
Isn't that the point, though? We don't have to _intend_ racism: we
just _do_ it. I don't think this one is a pernicious example, but it
illustrates the problem.
Mike.
Areff
> When two lawyers in the same firm dealing with different sides of an
> issue meet over a second, unrelated issue, it is assumed that their
> professional ethics preclude any collusion over the first issue. They
> are divided by an imaginary wall. That is what many call a 'Chinese
> Wall'. 'Administrative' and 'imaginary' are not mutually exclusive
> terms.
My understanding of the legal usage of "Chinese wall" (in AmE) is
that it's not just a purely imaginary sort of thing; the firm actually
sets up procedures to ensure that lawyer X doesn't get involved in what
lawyers Y and Z are doing for a particular client or matter at the same
firm where lawyer X would have a conflict of interest. It's not just a
"let's pretend there's a wall" sort of thing -- that would not be a
true or effective 'Chinese wall'. Rather, there's an actual
metaphorical sort of wall that's set up in the form of procedures and
regulations on conduct. If it comes down to a challenge, you can
demonstrate that your firm had policies in place that constituted a
Chinese wall.
--
Ross Howard
What I'm trying to figure out is what is supposed to make any of all
that allegedly racist, especially as this wall thing seems, to judge
by all the accounts given here, to be a Good Thing.
Now, about those "Spanish practices"....
--
Ross Howard
Tony Cooper
How about Hadrian's Wall?
Laura F Spira
"What I tell you three times is true."
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
John Dean
We're perhaps at odds because I don't think the term was 'co-opted', I
think it was coined as a racist term by the same mentality that produced
the 'chinese straight' or, for that matter, 'chinese whispers'. Not
deliberately racist, racist by negligence. That is, not people setting
out to be insulting to Chinese people, but people not caring if they
were offensive and following a particular style of using 'chinese' that
had produced offensive terms in the past.
Clearly, part of the issue depends on whether the Great Wall of China
was on people's minds when the phrase was coined. If it was, then
there's no argument for believing the term was coined in a racist way
(though that doesn't stop it being regarded as racist *now*). I don't
personally think it was, because I believe the 'chinese' element refers
to the wall's 'only make believe' nature and not to any impenetrable
quality.
If I'm wrong the argument obviously falls.
One thing I wonder. If the Great Wall was the inspiration, why not call
it 'a Great Wall' or a 'Great Wall of China'? 'GW' and 'GW of C' are the
common ways of referring to it. 'Chinese Wall' is rare (though not
unknown). The UL doesn't circulate in the form 'The Chinese Wall is
visible from space'. Very few people ever call it 'The Chinese Wall'.
--
John Dean
Oxford
John Dean
> On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 16:18:58 -0000, the renowned "John Dean"
> <john...@frag.lineone.net> wrote (quoted, actually):
>
>
>> http://money.cnn.com/2002/04/29/commentary/bottomline/lashinsky/
>>
>> "Here's an easy rule of thumb for being linguistically and culturally
>> sensitive: If it's possible a term might offend, use another.
>> To wit, I'm alerted that the extremely commonly used term "Chinese
>> Wall" is offensive to many folks in the financial and legal worlds
>> who are of Chinese ancestry.
>>
>> This is a complex one. On Wall Street, the Chinese Wall refers to the
>> division between an investment banking division and the research
>> division, and comes from the Great Wall, one of China's great
>> accomplishments. No matter.
>>
>> The expression isn't even accurate, of course, because the Great
>> Wall is supposedly impregnable. Migration from the research side to
>> the investment banking side of Wall Street brokerages, for example,
>> happens all the time. Seems like it'd just be easier to say "ethical
>> wall" or "firewall." What do you think?"
>
> I think Mr. Lashinsky doesn't know much about Chinese history if he
> thinks the Great Wall is or was "supposedly impregnable". Maybe he
> should stick to yakking* about tech stocks.
>
'supposedly impregnable'? Do you have some evidence there were people in
China who said 'OK, look, we're gonna build a wall. It'll be 25 foot
high not counting the crenellations, 40 feet at the watchtowers which
will be placed eight to a mile and it'll be 30 feet thick. Of course, we
expect people to clamber over it at will ...'? Wouldn't someone have
said 'Excuse me, but if it's not *supposed* to be impregnable, why are
we spending money on it?'?
> Now, the term "Mongolian clusterfuck" is probably offensive to most
> English-speaking people of Mongolian ancestory.
Why just people of Mongolian ancestry? Don't you find insults based on
ethnic stereotypes to be offensive?
>They have also
> successfully lobbied to stamp out the term "Mongoloid".
>
Don't you think that was a worthwhile endeavour, insofar as it related
to Down's Syndrome?
--
John Dean
Oxford
John Dean
Smokin! We're on a roll here ...
--
John 'Antonine to a fault' Dean
Oxford
Areff
> One thing I wonder. If the Great Wall was the inspiration, why not call
> it 'a Great Wall' or a 'Great Wall of China'? 'GW' and 'GW of C' are the
> common ways of referring to it. 'Chinese Wall' is rare (though not
> unknown). The UL doesn't circulate in the form 'The Chinese Wall is
> visible from space'. Very few people ever call it 'The Chinese Wall'.
A possible answer is that "the Chinese wall" seems to have once been a
fairly common way of referring to the Great Wall of China.
--
Mike Lyle
I usually ignore the bugger.
Sorry, Google's been funny. I promise to change to Agent: tried AOL's
newsreader once today, and found it Mickey-Mouse.
Mike.
Spehro Pefhany
We (including Mr. Lashinsky) do have the potential advantage of a
thousand years or so of hindsight in this matter. If he lived during
the Spring and Autumn period (perhaps making his living writing about
paper and gunpowder tech stocks) and threw in a few comments about the
Great Wall, that would be different.
>> Now, the term "Mongolian clusterfuck" is probably offensive to most
>> English-speaking people of Mongolian ancestory.
>
>Why just people of Mongolian ancestry? Don't you find insults based on
>ethnic stereotypes to be offensive?
Sure, along with that reading of my comments, of course. I'm not sure
it's necessarily an "insult" in general, though, often it's more like
a description of a situation-- along the lines of "SNAFU".
>>They have also
>> successfully lobbied to stamp out the term "Mongoloid".
>>
>Don't you think that was a worthwhile endeavour, insofar as it related
>to Down's Syndrome?
It's somewhat descriptive of the symptoms, so something has been lost,
but I do think it was probably justified. Would you be offended if the
Mongolians named a disease that inhibited intellectual development and
caused sufferers to develop an extremely prominent schnoz "Westerner
disease"?
John Dean
I'll have to ask my maternal Grandfather George Alzheimer.
--
John Dean
Oxford
John Dean
On what evidence 'seems to have been a fairly common way'? And was there
any gap between this 'common way' and the term's use in business?
--
John Dean
Oxford
Liz
>
> The term may come pre-skunked...I'm afraid that people here might confuse
> Chinese with Japanese and picture shoji, a wall made of paper
8<
Liz is more concerned with indoor air quality than appearance.
It was Chinese wall that concealed information about a SARS
outbreak in China, and the result was a sudden global epidemic.
http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/asiapcf/east/05/14/sars.censor/
Had I learned about it in December 2002, I would have advised
my mother to delay her trip to Taipei. She was unable to return to
the US until July 2003 when WHO (World Health Organization)
lifted its travel warning.
Liz
> I'll have to ask my maternal Grandfather George Alzheimer.
If it's a good script I'll do it. And if it's a bad script,
and they pay me enough, I'll do it.
~ George Burns
Liz
> Areff <m...@privacy.net> wrote
> >
> > What I think is racist, arguably, is 'Chinese wall' in the sense of 'not a
> > real wall, since we associate 'Chinese' with incompetence or inferiority'
> > or something like that -- I don't have a good sense of what's going on
> > with this or with usages like 'Chinese fire drill' but I gather that it's
> > sort of related to the Polish joke idea, which is something that was still
> > common when I were growing up.
>
>
> "Chinese fire drill" for a scene of chaotic panic is particularly
> inept, since China had well-organized fire brigades early on. (Still,
> the deadliest fire in history was a theater fire in Guangzhou (Canton)
> in 1845: 1,670 deaths.)
This reminds me of the movie "China Syndrome" (1979), a
conspiracy to keep an accident at a nuclear power plant a secret.
But it was the Patriot Act that tore down the American wall (Constitution)
that prevented the FBI and the CIA from sharing intelligence.
And it would be pointless to leave this thread without mentioning
Pink Floyd's "The Wall" (1982). :)
--
Just another brick in the wall.
R H Draney
>
>This reminds me of the movie "China Syndrome" (1979), a
>conspiracy to keep an accident at a nuclear power plant a secret.
The title of the movie has nothing to do with keeping secrets...it refers to a
reactor core becoming so hot that it melts right through the earth's crust,
fancifully going "all the way through to China"...(in reality, it goes until it
hits groundwater, which vaporizes and sprays radioactive steam all over the
surrounding area)....
A guest in one of my high-school classes described and named the syndrome circa
1974...five years later the ads for the movie were claiming "today only a
handful of people know what it means; soon you will know"...apparently I was one
of the handful....
The "incident" at Three Mile Island took place when the movie had been in
theatres for about two weeks, making the film more memorable to the public than
it would have been under normal circumstances...I never witnessed such a
coincidence of movie plot and actual events until "SpaceCamp"....r
Pat Durkin
> Areff wrote:
> > Mark Browne wrote:
> >> On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, in alt.usage.english, Areff <m...@privacy.net>
writes
> >>>
> >>> I had never thought, prior to John Dean's posting, that such terms as
> >>> 'Chinese wall' and 'Indian burn' were as racist in origin as I now
suppose
> >>> they are. For example, I assumed that 'Chinese wall' was an odd
reference
> >>> to 'Great Wall of China',
> >>
> >> Why would this be racist?
> >
> > What I think is racist, arguably, is 'Chinese wall' in the sense of 'not
a
> > real wall, since we associate 'Chinese' with incompetence or
inferiority'
> > or something like that --
>
> then yes, that's a racist interpretation.
>
> But that isn't what it means.
Agreed. I wonder, now, if Chinese made things are being considered cheap
and inferior in the same way that post-WWII (and perhaps pre-war. . .not
sure) Japanese items were so considered.
I can recall (back in the late '40s and '50s) looking at the bottoms of
little toy cars (matchbox size) and seeing painted advertising, indicating
the toys were remade from recycled tin cans. . .probably US throw-aways. I
thought the recycling was cunning and efficient, and couldn't understand the
labelling of such items as "cheap Japanese-made junk". I guess the nation
found out about the inferiority of Japanese manufacture when the cars
started outselling and outperforming the US-made elephants, huh?
Perhaps the success of producing and marketing many novelties and useful
wares in the "Dollar" stores by the Chinese has created this twisted meaning
of the "Chinese Wall" for some people. A dangerous envy that may create or
reinforce in the American mind a sense of the unworthiness of the "Oriental
mind".
(And I just _know_ Rey's post was aimed at me, though not me alone.)
Oh, what other people call the Chinese Burn, etc, is what I learned as a
wrestling hold called the "snakebite".
Spehro Pefhany
Would you have used the word "cunning" if they had been, say, Swedish
products?
Ben Zimmer
>
> R H Draney wrote:
> > Areff filted:
> >>
> >>Note that Fonzie himself (who was played by Henry Winkler, who is
> >>Jewish) had a Jewish mother, or so it was implied (by the references to
> >>his "Grandma Nussbaum").
> >
> > "Grandma Nussbaum" appeared in at least one episode, and when someone appeared
> > to question the name, she simply said "I've been married more than once"....r
>
> Aha... I did not know that!
Further reflection on Fonzie's possible Jewish roots: Henry Winkler
based the Arthur Fonzarelli character on his role in the 1974 movie _The
Lords of Flatbush_, about a leather-jacket-clad Brooklyn gang in 1957
(also starring Perry King and a young Sylvester Stallone). Winkler's
character in the movie is named Butchey Weinstein.
Haven't seen the movie, but I caught a promo for it on the FLIX channel
(a Showtime network). Fonzie-ologists should tune in Friday at 8 pm:
<http://www.sho.com/site/schedules/product_page.do?seriesid=0&episodeid=87739>.
Pat Durkin
"Spehro Pefhany" <spef...@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote in message
news:7dk3d01stmev6hg30...@4ax.com...
Wouldn't have needed to be defensive about Swedish products, you know.
(Please recall I was probably in 3rd grade when I first encountered these
toys. . .8 years of age.) In Wisconsin, we worship the quality of Finnish-,
Swedish-, Norwegian- and Danish-made products. Even German-made stuff is
considered pretty good.
I must admit to laughing at the occasional "Scandihoovian" jokes, however.
Areff
> Further reflection on Fonzie's possible Jewish roots: Henry Winkler
> based the Arthur Fonzarelli character on his role in the 1974 movie _The
> Lords of Flatbush_, about a leather-jacket-clad Brooklyn gang in 1957
> (also starring Perry King and a young Sylvester Stallone). Winkler's
> character in the movie is named Butchey Weinstein.
Interesting. Anyone who's seen the first episode of _Happy Days_ knows
that Winkler transformed the Fonzie character quite significantly, and
early on in the series. In the first episode, Fonzie wears an auto
mechanic's uniform, no leather jacket or white T-shirt, and, moreover,
while he appears in several scenes in the episode, he has no more than one
or two lines (he's nearly as silent as Snoopy in an animated _Peanuts_
special on CBS, sponsored by Peter Paul). It's my understanding that
Fonzie's (later) dress and gestures largely reflected Winkler's input
rather than any writer or director types.
The Fonzification of _Happy Days_ was an interesting and unexpected
development. The show was really supposed to be all about Richie, but for
most fans of the show the main character became Fonzie. Speaking of
Snoopy, it's reminiscent of what happened to the "Peanuts" comic strip,
where Snoopy ended up overshadowing Charlie Brown in the consciousness of
fans and the general public. It's my understanding that Charles M.
"Sparky" Schulz was bothered by this. Any other examples of this
phenomenon? Maybe how Homer Simpson subtly became the focus of _The
Simpsons_ instead of Bart after the first season or so? (That coincided
with the transformation of Homer Simpson from a sort of gruff unemotional
father figure to the lovably oafish character we know today.) Or maybe
how Luke Skywalker was, arguably, downgraded from central hero status in
the original Star War trilogy after Episode IV?
In my view, the stylistic contrast between Luke Skywalker and Han Solo in
Episode IV hints at a cultural conflict that existed at the time. Luke
represents the dying culture of the late '70s, and with it the last gasps
of life for the 'Sixties counterculture. Han Solo represents the
proto-'80s culture, that whole post-punk new wave Reagan Gordon Gecko
Gorbachev sort of thing.
Say, whatever happened to Chuck Cunningham? Anyone? Anyone? Sparky?
> Haven't seen the movie, but I caught a promo for it on the FLIX channel
> (a Showtime network). Fonzie-ologists should tune in Friday at 8 pm:
><http://www.sho.com/site/schedules/product_page.do?seriesid=0&episodeid=87739>.
I've only scene a minute or so of it, and that was long ago, I'm ashamed
to say. I'd be curious to see it not only for Fonzieology but also
because I myself grew up in Flatbush (The Heart of Brooklyn [Fourth
Largest City in America]). Unfortunately, I do not get any such FLIX
channel SFAIK.
--
Liz
> Liz filted:
> >
> >This reminds me of the movie "China Syndrome" (1979), a
> >conspiracy to keep an accident at a nuclear power plant a secret.
>
> The title of the movie has nothing to do with keeping secrets...it refers to a
> reactor core becoming so hot that it melts right through the earth's crust,
> fancifully going "all the way through to China"...
Pardon me, the title should be "The China Syndrome".
Thanks for the explanation. Yes, the title of the movie does not
define the plot of the movie. I read somewhere that this film is based
on a real event at the Browns Ferry reactor in Alabama when a fire
disabled the cooling system, the reactor core threatening a 5000 degree
meltdown nicknamed "The China Syndrome".
"The China Syndrome isn't a film simply about a nuclear power
plant on the verge of going kablooey. It's much too smart for that.
This is the sort of story that delves deep into exploring the human emotion,
capturing the fear and the struggle to tell the truth, come hell, lawyers,
or journalistic ethics." Adam J. Hakari
http://www.ajhakari.com/c/chinasyndrome.html
R H Draney
>
>Interesting. Anyone who's seen the first episode of _Happy Days_ knows
>that Winkler transformed the Fonzie character quite significantly, and
>early on in the series. In the first episode, Fonzie wears an auto
>mechanic's uniform, no leather jacket or white T-shirt, and, moreover,
>while he appears in several scenes in the episode, he has no more than one
>or two lines (he's nearly as silent as Snoopy in an animated _Peanuts_
>special on CBS, sponsored by Peter Paul). It's my understanding that
>Fonzie's (later) dress and gestures largely reflected Winkler's input
>rather than any writer or director types.
It's my understanding that they wanted Fonzie to wear the leather jacket all the
time, but the network resisted having a "motorcycle hood" for a sympathetic
character...the compromise reached was that he could wear the leather jacket,
but *only* when he was on or near his motorcycle....
>The Fonzification of _Happy Days_ was an interesting and unexpected
>development. The show was really supposed to be all about Richie, but for
>most fans of the show the main character became Fonzie. Speaking of
>Snoopy, it's reminiscent of what happened to the "Peanuts" comic strip,
>where Snoopy ended up overshadowing Charlie Brown in the consciousness of
>fans and the general public. It's my understanding that Charles M.
>"Sparky" Schulz was bothered by this. Any other examples of this
>phenomenon? Maybe how Homer Simpson subtly became the focus of _The
>Simpsons_ instead of Bart after the first season or so? (That coincided
>with the transformation of Homer Simpson from a sort of gruff unemotional
>father figure to the lovably oafish character we know today.) Or maybe
>how Luke Skywalker was, arguably, downgraded from central hero status in
>the original Star War trilogy after Episode IV?
I never watched the show, but "Family Matters" is considered a classic example
of this...originally it was supposed to be about the Winslow family, but the
character of "Urkel", conceived as a piece of comic relief, took over the whole
Zeitgeist....r
Miriam
institutions refers not to the Great Wall, but to the paper-screened
sliding doors/walls seen in the past in _Japanese_ houses[1], and can
therefore be said to represent USian cultural ignorance.
Miriam
[1]That is, you *can* hear through them, but you shouldn't pay attention.
mike_l...@yahoo.co.uk (Mike Lyle) wrote in message news:<3fa4d950.04061...@posting.google.com>...
> "Michael West" <mbw...@bigpond.com> wrote in message news:<hdUzc.30043$sj4....@news-server.bigpond.net.au>...
> [...]
> > Thanks for those. They illustrate the meaning
> > that "Chinese wall" had when it was adopted in
> > American business: Policies and procedures designed
> > to STOP the flow of information.
[snip]
Michael West
> Um, I think the term "Chinese wall" in relation to financial
> institutions refers not to the Great Wall, but to the paper-screened
> sliding doors/walls seen in the past in _Japanese_ houses[1], and can
> therefore be said to represent USian cultural ignorance.
Thank you. That statement is a perfect example
of cultural ignorance. We really needed another one.
--
Michael West
Melbourne, Australia