Tick and check

[Stan Brown]

Among my duties is writing instructions for doing various things in
software. In AmE we say "check the box next to the word Dynamic",
meaning to place a check mark in that box.

I believe the BrE verb would be "tick", but would most BrE readers
understand "check" (verb) to mean "tick" in this context? Or do I
need to say "Check (tick) the box. ..."?

Is there some verb with similar meaning that is equally well used in
BrE and AmE?


--
"The difference between the /almost right/ word and the /right/ word
is ... the difference between the lightning-bug and the lightning."
--Mark Twain
Stan Brown, Tompkins County, NY, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com

[Peter Brooks]

On Apr 11, 12:51 pm, Stan Brown <the_stan_br...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> Among my duties is writing instructions for doing various things in
> software.  In AmE we say "check the box next to the word Dynamic",
> meaning to place a check mark in that box.
>
> I believe the BrE verb would be "tick", but would most BrE readers
> understand "check" (verb) to mean "tick" in this context?  Or do I
> need to say "Check (tick) the box. ..."?
>
> Is there some verb with similar meaning that is equally well used in
> BrE and AmE?
>

I always have a look to make sure that the box is really there and
properly square when asked to check it.

If you don't want to say 'tick the box', which means 'put a tick in
it', you could say 'put a cross in the box', or 'fill in the box'.

[Pablo]

Or simply "mark".

The fact is that most aren't as caring as the OP and simply put "check" on
the basis that we will eventually get used to it. Bloody septics :-)

--
Pablo

http://www.flickr.com/photos/wibbleypants/
http://paulc.es/

[bert]

On Thursday, 11 April 2013 11:51:43 UTC+1, Stan Brown wrote:
> Among my duties is writing instructions for doing various things in
> software. In AmE we say "check the box next to the word Dynamic",
> meaning to place a check mark in that box.
>
> I believe the BrE verb would be "tick", but would most BrE readers
> understand "check" (verb) to mean "tick" in this context?

If it's a check box on a computer screen, "check the box" is quite
okay. Everybody who uses these calls them check boxes, not tick
boxes, and calls the operations on them "checking" and "unchecking".

If it's a box in a written document, you have to be much more
explicit. I'm almost sure there was a case where, after something
awkward had happened, the user alleged to have been at fault said
"Well, yes, I know it said to check the box, but I did; I looked at
that box really carefully, and as far as I could see it was okay!"
I would suggest that "Put a tick in the box" is the unambiguous way
to express the requirement.
--

[Mike Barnes]

Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm>:

>Among my duties is writing instructions for doing various things in
>software. In AmE we say "check the box next to the word Dynamic",
>meaning to place a check mark in that box.
>
>I believe the BrE verb would be "tick", but would most BrE readers
>understand "check" (verb) to mean "tick" in this context?

Yes.

>Or do I
>need to say "Check (tick) the box. ..."?

Only for a complete novice.

ObDigression: My first exposure to check boxes was with early versions
of Windows, where a check box contained a cross similar to an x. For a
long time I thought that a tick and a check mark were different things.

--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England

[Steve Hayes]

On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 06:51:43 -0400, Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm>
wrote:

>Among my duties is writing instructions for doing various things in
>software. In AmE we say "check the box next to the word Dynamic",
>meaning to place a check mark in that box.
>
>I believe the BrE verb would be "tick", but would most BrE readers
>understand "check" (verb) to mean "tick" in this context? Or do I
>need to say "Check (tick) the box. ..."?
>
>Is there some verb with similar meaning that is equally well used in
>BrE and AmE?

If asked to "check" the box, I'd put an X in it.

If asked to "tick" the box, I'd put a tick in it (like a V but with one arm
longer than the other).

Would it make any difference, as long as the box is marked in some way?


--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

We had a discussion here within living memory about the BrE and AmE
understanding of phrases such as "put a cross in the box" and "cross out
<something>". ISTR the AmE speakers tended to understand "cross" to be a
Christian-style cross rather than an "x" or a line through some text.

A OneLook.com search for "cross out" is noticeably lacking in results
from AmE dictionaries:
http://www.onelook.com/?w=cross+out&ls=a

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Peter Young]

On 11 Apr 2013 Steve Hayes <haye...@telkomsa.net> wrote:

> On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 06:51:43 -0400, Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm>
> wrote:

>>Among my duties is writing instructions for doing various things in
>>software. In AmE we say "check the box next to the word Dynamic",
>>meaning to place a check mark in that box.
>>
>>I believe the BrE verb would be "tick", but would most BrE readers
>>understand "check" (verb) to mean "tick" in this context? Or do I
>>need to say "Check (tick) the box. ..."?
>>
>>Is there some verb with similar meaning that is equally well used in
>>BrE and AmE?

> If asked to "check" the box, I'd put an X in it.

> If asked to "tick" the box, I'd put a tick in it (like a V but with one arm
> longer than the other).

> Would it make any difference, as long as the box is marked in some way?

I have an idea that it can make a difference with certain machine
readers. Certainly several forms I've filled in with a pen instruct
whoever is filling in the form to use a cross (X).

Peter.

--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk

[James Silverton]

On 4/11/2013 1:56 PM, Peter Young wrote:
> On 11 Apr 2013 Steve Hayes <haye...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 06:51:43 -0400, Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm>
>> wrote:
>
>>> Among my duties is writing instructions for doing various things in
>>> software. In AmE we say "check the box next to the word Dynamic",
>>> meaning to place a check mark in that box.
>>>
>>> I believe the BrE verb would be "tick", but would most BrE readers
>>> understand "check" (verb) to mean "tick" in this context? Or do I
>>> need to say "Check (tick) the box. ..."?
>>>
>>> Is there some verb with similar meaning that is equally well used in
>>> BrE and AmE?
>
>> If asked to "check" the box, I'd put an X in it.
>
>> If asked to "tick" the box, I'd put a tick in it (like a V but with one arm
>> longer than the other).
>
>> Would it make any difference, as long as the box is marked in some way?
>
> I have an idea that it can make a difference with certain machine
> readers. Certainly several forms I've filled in with a pen instruct
> whoever is filling in the form to use a cross (X).
>
> Peter.
>

I doubt that makes much difference. I very seldom use an X and, on a
computer, any click seems to work.

--
Jim Silverton (Potomac, MD)

Extraneous "not" in Reply To.

[Peter Young]

Yes, but I was talking about filling in a form with a pen on a piece
of paper. Remember those?

[James Silverton]

But surely the form will be read electronically and the box is either
empty or filled.

[Jerry Friedman]

On Apr 11, 10:54 am, Steve Hayes <hayes...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 06:51:43 -0400, Stan Brown <the_stan_br...@fastmail.fm>

> wrote:
>
> >Among my duties is writing instructions for doing various things in
> >software.  In AmE we say "check the box next to the word Dynamic",
> >meaning to place a check mark in that box.
>
> >I believe the BrE verb would be "tick", but would most BrE readers
> >understand "check" (verb) to mean "tick" in this context?  Or do I
> >need to say "Check (tick) the box. ..."?
>
> >Is there some verb with similar meaning that is equally well used in
> >BrE and AmE?
>
> If asked to "check" the box, I'd put an X in it.
>
> If asked to "tick" the box, I'd put a tick in it (like a V but with one arm
> longer than the other).

I imagine you've seen here that in America, that's called a check or
check mark.

But do all left-handers make the left arm longer (at least in a series
of such marks), as Tony Cooper says, or only some?

> Would it make any difference, as long as the box is marked in some way?

You'd avoid the situation that bert is almost sure of, where a person
understood or claimed to understand it as "inspect the box".

--
Jerry Friedman

[Jerry Friedman]

On Apr 11, 11:26 am, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]" <m...@peterduncanson.net>
wrote:

> On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 03:56:53 -0700 (PDT), Peter Brooks
>
>
>
>
>
> <peter.h.m.bro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Apr 11, 12:51 pm, Stan Brown <the_stan_br...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> >> Among my duties is writing instructions for doing various things in
> >> software.  In AmE we say "check the box next to the word Dynamic",
> >> meaning to place a check mark in that box.
>
> >> I believe the BrE verb would be "tick", but would most BrE readers
> >> understand "check" (verb) to mean "tick" in this context?  Or do I
> >> need to say "Check (tick) the box. ..."?
>
> >> Is there some verb with similar meaning that is equally well used in
> >> BrE and AmE?
>
> >I always have a look to make sure that the box is really there and
> >properly square when asked to check it.
>
> >If you don't want to say 'tick the box', which means 'put a tick in
> >it', you could say 'put a cross in the box', or 'fill in the box'.
>
> We had a discussion here within living memory about the BrE and AmE
> understanding of phrases such as "put a cross in the box" and "cross out
> <something>". ISTR the AmE speakers tended to understand "cross" to be a
> Christian-style cross rather than an "x" or a line through some text.

Huh. "Cross out" to me means an x or a line. However, "put a cross
in the box" would first suggest a +. I'd probably figure out that it
was supposed to be an x.

And shame on you, being in Ireland, for saying that a saltire isn't a
Christian cross! Doesn't the Cross of St. Patrick be an X entirely?

(Sorry.)

> A OneLook.com search for "cross out" is noticeably lacking in results
> from AmE dictionaries:http://www.onelook.com/?w=cross+out&ls=a

Ridiculous of them. AHD doesn't have anything at all about making a
mark. M-W at least has "to cancel by marking a cross on or drawing a
line through : strike out <cross names off a list>"

Speaking of the AHD, <flame>what kind of pinhead makes a predictive-
typing algorithm that gives you something other than what you typed?
I typed "cross<enter>" and got "Cro-Magnon"--ah, maybe that answers my
question--and earlier today at eBird I typed "American Coot<enter>"
and got "Greater Rhea". (I really should have learned by now not to
do this at eBird.)<flame>

--
Jerry Friedman

[R H Draney]

Jerry Friedman filted:
>
>On Apr 11, 10:54=A0am, Steve Hayes <hayes...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>> On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 06:51:43 -0400, Stan Brown <the_stan_br...@fastmail.f=

>m>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Among my duties is writing instructions for doing various things in

>> >software. =A0In AmE we say "check the box next to the word Dynamic",

>> >meaning to place a check mark in that box.
>>
>> >I believe the BrE verb would be "tick", but would most BrE readers

>> >understand "check" (verb) to mean "tick" in this context? =A0Or do I

>> >need to say "Check (tick) the box. ..."?
>>
>> >Is there some verb with similar meaning that is equally well used in
>> >BrE and AmE?
>>
>> If asked to "check" the box, I'd put an X in it.
>>

>> If asked to "tick" the box, I'd put a tick in it (like a V but with one a=

>rm
>> longer than the other).
>
>I imagine you've seen here that in America, that's called a check or
>check mark.

In America, a "tick" is either a sound or a bloodsucking crustacean....

Why doesn't someone suggest to the OP that "mark the box" is clear and
unambiguous and be done with it?...r


--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.

[Tony Cooper]

On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 11:37:15 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
<jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Apr 11, 10:54�am, Steve Hayes <hayes...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>> On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 06:51:43 -0400, Stan Brown <the_stan_br...@fastmail.fm>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Among my duties is writing instructions for doing various things in
>> >software. �In AmE we say "check the box next to the word Dynamic",
>> >meaning to place a check mark in that box.
>>
>> >I believe the BrE verb would be "tick", but would most BrE readers
>> >understand "check" (verb) to mean "tick" in this context? �Or do I
>> >need to say "Check (tick) the box. ..."?
>>
>> >Is there some verb with similar meaning that is equally well used in
>> >BrE and AmE?
>>
>> If asked to "check" the box, I'd put an X in it.
>>
>> If asked to "tick" the box, I'd put a tick in it (like a V but with one arm
>> longer than the other).
>
>I imagine you've seen here that in America, that's called a check or
>check mark.
>
>But do all left-handers make the left arm longer (at least in a series
>of such marks), as Tony Cooper says, or only some?

Trick question. The choice is between "all" and "some". I want a box
for "most" to check off. The natural stroke is down and up with the
"down" the short part and finishing with the long part which tails to
the left with my sort.

>
>> Would it make any difference, as long as the box is marked in some way?
>
>You'd avoid the situation that bert is almost sure of, where a person
>understood or claimed to understand it as "inspect the box".
--

Tony Cooper - Orlando FL

[Jerry Friedman]

On Apr 11, 2:42 pm, R H Draney <dadoc...@spamcop.net> wrote:
> Jerry Friedman filted:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >On Apr 11, 10:54=A0am, Steve Hayes <hayes...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
> >> On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 06:51:43 -0400, Stan Brown <the_stan_br...@fastmail.f=
> >m>
> >> wrote:
>
> >> >Among my duties is writing instructions for doing various things in
> >> >software. =A0In AmE we say "check the box next to the word Dynamic",
> >> >meaning to place a check mark in that box.
>
> >> >I believe the BrE verb would be "tick", but would most BrE readers
> >> >understand "check" (verb) to mean "tick" in this context? =A0Or do I
> >> >need to say "Check (tick) the box. ..."?
>
> >> >Is there some verb with similar meaning that is equally well used in
> >> >BrE and AmE?
>
> >> If asked to "check" the box, I'd put an X in it.
>
> >> If asked to "tick" the box, I'd put a tick in it (like a V but with one a=
> >rm
> >> longer than the other).
>
> >I imagine you've seen here that in America, that's called a check or
> >check mark.
>
> In America, a "tick" is either a sound or a bloodsucking crustacean....

(Arachnid.)

Once in a while a "tick" can be part of a mattress, I think.

> Why doesn't someone suggest to the OP that "mark the box" is clear and
> unambiguous and be done with it?...r

Someone like Pablo?

--
Jerry Friedman

[Mike Barnes]

Jerry Friedman <jerry_f...@yahoo.com>:

>But do all left-handers make the left arm longer (at least in a series
>of such marks), as Tony Cooper says, or only some?

I'm left handed and my ticks (check marks) are the usual way round. I
don't recall ever seeing one the other way round, and I must have seen
many written by left handers.

I don't write anything else back-to-front, or even sloping backwards.

[Mike L]

On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 03:56:53 -0700 (PDT), Peter Brooks

So not knowing about the philosophers' stone is a sign of poor
education in children, but reaching middle age without having noticed
what "check" means in this context is OK. Ri-i-ight.

--
Mike.

[Garrett Wollman]

In article <mZRKHcJW...@34klh41lk4h1lk34h3lk4h1k4.invalid>,

Mike Barnes <mikeba...@gmail.com> wrote:
>I'm left handed and my ticks (check marks) are the usual way round. I
>don't recall ever seeing one the other way round, and I must have seen
>many written by left handers.

Hmmm.

In school, if your teacher made such a mark on a paper you handed it
in, would that mean that you had gotten the question right or wrong?
(For me it would certainly be "correct", although a large "C" was at
least as common, but I remember being very confused once when talking
to someone who insisted that it indicated an error. And in Finland,
they used a percent sign to indicate a correct answer, which was even
more confusing.)

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft
wol...@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program
Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption
my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993

[Mike Barnes]

Garrett Wollman <wol...@bimajority.org>:

>In article <mZRKHcJW...@34klh41lk4h1lk34h3lk4h1k4.invalid>,
>Mike Barnes <mikeba...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>I'm left handed and my ticks (check marks) are the usual way round. I
>>don't recall ever seeing one the other way round, and I must have seen
>>many written by left handers.
>
>Hmmm.
>
>In school, if your teacher made such a mark on a paper you handed it
>in, would that mean that you had gotten the question right or wrong?

Right.

>(For me it would certainly be "correct", although a large "C" was at
>least as common, but I remember being very confused once when talking
>to someone who insisted that it indicated an error. And in Finland,
>they used a percent sign to indicate a correct answer, which was even
>more confusing.)

I don't recall ever seeing "C" in this context, or anything other than a
tick. But it's been many decades.

An English teacher friend who moved to California said that marking
written work (which marks to put, and where to put them) was one of the
hardest adjustments she had to make.

[Jerry Friedman]

I quote:

"While it's not germane to this discussion, if you see a list of items
where
several people have made check marks, you can always spot the check
marks by the
left-handers."

https://groups.google.com/group/alt.usage.english/browse_frm/thread/5bc4bf534c84fc1/d40b0cbcd273a44b

"Most of the time" would certainly be more accurate than "always".
Anyway, to me, "some" often covers "most". If I saw a question with a
choice between "all" and "some", I wouldn't consider it a trick
question because it didn't have "most".

--
Jerry Friedman

[Dr Nick]

I've just found some work my left-handed 11-year-old has been doing on
probabilties. She's written the probabilities as things like 3\10.

[Robert Bannister]

Some forms, especially those that will be read electronically, are very
particular about what you put in the boxes. Should it be a tick, a cross
or a diagonal line, and if the latter, should it slope forwards or
backwards and how will I know which is which?

Clever form designers provide an example of how they want the box
marked. "Draw a cross in the box as in this example: [x]" Take up a lot
more space than "Tick the box provided", but makes the victim...I mean
person being questioned feel more cared for.

--
Robert Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

The Philosopher's Stone has been on record for centuries. "Check" is not
only relatively new, the exact meaning has so far not been agreed on. A
lot depends on whether the results will be read by a human or a machine
- the latter may be a lot more choosy about which kind of check mark is
entered.

--
Robert Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

As far as I know, a tick and a cross are still different things and a
straight line or a diagonal line are different again. If people want
forms filled in a particular way, they should provide and example of how
they want it done. "Check" is insufficient.
--
Robert Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

On 12/04/13 5:11 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Apr 11, 2:42 pm, R H Draney <dadoc...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>> Jerry Friedman filted:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Apr 11, 10:54=A0am, Steve Hayes <hayes...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 06:51:43 -0400, Stan Brown <the_stan_br...@fastmail.f=
>>> m>
>>>> wrote:
>>
>>>>> Among my duties is writing instructions for doing various things in
>>>>> software. =A0In AmE we say "check the box next to the word Dynamic",
>>>>> meaning to place a check mark in that box.
>>
>>>>> I believe the BrE verb would be "tick", but would most BrE readers
>>>>> understand "check" (verb) to mean "tick" in this context? =A0Or do I
>>>>> need to say "Check (tick) the box. ..."?
>>
>>>>> Is there some verb with similar meaning that is equally well used in
>>>>> BrE and AmE?
>>
>>>> If asked to "check" the box, I'd put an X in it.
>>
>>>> If asked to "tick" the box, I'd put a tick in it (like a V but with one a=
>>> rm
>>>> longer than the other).
>>
>>> I imagine you've seen here that in America, that's called a check or
>>> check mark.
>>
>> In America, a "tick" is either a sound or a bloodsucking crustacean....
>
> (Arachnid.)
>
> Once in a while a "tick" can be part of a mattress, I think.

I thought that was "ticking".

>
>> Why doesn't someone suggest to the OP that "mark the box" is clear and
>> unambiguous and be done with it?...r
>
> Someone like Pablo?
>
> --
> Jerry Friedman
>

--
Robert Bannister

[Tony Cooper]

On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 08:11:41 +0800, Robert Bannister
<rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:

>On 12/04/13 6:02 AM, Mike L wrote:
>> On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 03:56:53 -0700 (PDT), Peter Brooks
>> <peter.h....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Apr 11, 12:51 pm, Stan Brown <the_stan_br...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>>>> Among my duties is writing instructions for doing various things in
>>>> software. In AmE we say "check the box next to the word Dynamic",
>>>> meaning to place a check mark in that box.
>>>>
>>>> I believe the BrE verb would be "tick", but would most BrE readers
>>>> understand "check" (verb) to mean "tick" in this context? Or do I
>>>> need to say "Check (tick) the box. ..."?
>>>>
>>>> Is there some verb with similar meaning that is equally well used in
>>>> BrE and AmE?
>>>>
>>> I always have a look to make sure that the box is really there and
>>> properly square when asked to check it.
>>>
>>> If you don't want to say 'tick the box', which means 'put a tick in
>>> it', you could say 'put a cross in the box', or 'fill in the box'.
>>
>> So not knowing about the philosophers' stone is a sign of poor
>> education in children, but reaching middle age without having noticed
>> what "check" means in this context is OK. Ri-i-ight.
>>
>
>The Philosopher's Stone has been on record for centuries.

Part of any class study, though? I consider myself reasonably well
educated, but I don't recall the Philosopher's Stone being brought up
any class at any level.

Am I wrong? Am I the victim of a poor education?

>Check" is not
>only relatively new, the exact meaning has so far not been agreed on. A
>lot depends on whether the results will be read by a human or a machine
>- the latter may be a lot more choosy about which kind of check mark is
>entered.
--

[Tony Cooper]

And I regard "some" as being far from "most".
"Some children have red hair" does not mean that anything like most
children have red hair.

[Peter Brooks]

On Apr 11, 8:37 pm, Jerry Friedman <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> But do all left-handers make the left arm longer (at least in a series
> of such marks), as Tony Cooper says, or only some?

> /
I make my ticks \/ , i.e. with a shorter left arm, and I'm left-
handed, so, no, not all left-handers do that.

[Peter Brooks]

The difference is between English and Yank as, I'm sure, you know. In
English, 'check the box' means to, as has been said, inspect it. If
I'm filling in a form that is clearly in a foreign language, I do,
naturally, make allowances.

[Peter Brooks]

Indeed it does!

Even cleverer form designers work on the principle that people have
met this sort of thing before, so can simply give an example at the
top, such as:

Answer the questions below. For example:

2 + 2 = 4 True [X] False [ ]


Usually the expression 'tick the box' applies to a list. If, for
example, you are going to fly an aeroplane, you tick off the items as
you check that they're ready. For example:

Enough fuel for journey [ ]

If you had enough petrol, then you'd tick the box. Somebody might ask
later if you've 'ticked all the boxes' - meaning, is everything ready.
This has become a standard expression for having been thorough in
preparation:

" [OED]
▸ fig.to tick (also check) (all) the (right) boxes and variants: to
fulfil the requirements; to have the necessary or expected
attributes.

   1989 Associated Press Newswire (Nexis) 3 Feb. Baseball was
determined to fill the NL job with a black from inside the game.‥ [He]
put checkmarks in all the right boxes.    1993 Courier Mail (Brisbane)
(Nexis) 26 Nov. The Bank‥{ticked all the boxes}…but it was obvious no
time went into their report.    1994Frank 3 Mar. in S. Collins & A.
Martin Frank Pranks (2000) 13/3 Checks all the boxes, domestically,
but proud confession to government job a strike against him.    2005
Independent 26 Sept. 32/1 We do not do this with a view to ticking the
right boxes, but because‥we believe it is‥the right thing to do.
"

[Peter Brooks]

Yes. An education is not simply what you do in the classroom.
Children, at good schools, are encouraged to read at home. Children
from good homes are encouraged to read as well, which is part of their
education, even if not provided by the school.

Even a light reading of the sort of books you'd expect children, who
are not disadvantaged, to read would provide ample opportunity to
encounter the phrase.

[Stan Brown]

On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 03:56:53 -0700 (PDT), Peter Brooks wrote:
>
> If you don't want to say 'tick the box', which means 'put a tick in
> it', you could say 'put a cross in the box', or 'fill in the box'.

"Put a cross in the box" is clearly wrong. The mark isn't a cross
(or an X, as AmE speakers would say). It's a check mark like 20 of
the 22 shown here:

https://www.google.com/images?q=check+mark

"Tick the box" is clearly unidiomatic for AmE, and I think a
substantial minority or even a majority would not understand what I
meant. I believe that "check the box" is unidiomatic for BrE, but my
question is whether it's as bad for a Brit as "tick the box" is for a
Yank.

In this context (Web pages), my number one concern is
comprehensibility, with brevity a close second. I'm not terribly
concerned with being idiomatic. If a Brit looks at it and says
"well, I know what he means, but he probably thinks a lorry is a
'truck'", I can live with that. My question is: is "check the box",
in a computer context, comprehensible to most BrE speakers?

--
"The difference between the /almost right/ word and the /right/ word
is ... the difference between the lightning-bug and the lightning."
--Mark Twain
Stan Brown, Tompkins County, NY, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com

[Stan Brown]

On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 08:07:31 +0800, Robert Bannister wrote:
> Some forms, especially those that will be read electronically, are very
> particular about what you put in the boxes. Should it be a tick, a cross
> or a diagonal line, and if the latter, should it slope forwards or
> backwards and how will I know which is which?
>

True, but I'm talking about software, not forms. (I should have
said; I simply failed to think about the possibility people might
think I was talking of forms.)

When you select yes/no options in Windows programs, you click your
mouse into a box to place or remove a check mark there. Standard AmE
for that, in context, is "check the box" or "uncheck the box". Is
that understood -- in that context - by BrE speakers also, or is
there some other verb I could use that would be understood by BrE and
AmE speakers and would not look too odd to either?

[Stan Brown]

On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 22:27:50 +0000 (UTC), Garrett Wollman wrote:
> In school, if your teacher made such a mark on a paper you handed it
> in, would that mean that you had gotten the question right or wrong?
>

I teach part time at the local community college, and when I started
I was amazed to find that some students asked whether a check mark

https://www.google.com/images?q=check+mark

meant a correct answer or an incorrect answer. I now use a plus sign
and a number of points for every correct or partly correct answer,
and +0 for every incorrect answer.

[Steve Hayes]

On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 11:37:15 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman

<jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Apr 11, 10:54�am, Steve Hayes <hayes...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>> On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 06:51:43 -0400, Stan Brown <the_stan_br...@fastmail.fm>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Among my duties is writing instructions for doing various things in
>> >software. �In AmE we say "check the box next to the word Dynamic",
>> >meaning to place a check mark in that box.
>>
>> >I believe the BrE verb would be "tick", but would most BrE readers
>> >understand "check" (verb) to mean "tick" in this context? �Or do I
>> >need to say "Check (tick) the box. ..."?
>>
>> >Is there some verb with similar meaning that is equally well used in
>> >BrE and AmE?
>>
>> If asked to "check" the box, I'd put an X in it.
>>
>> If asked to "tick" the box, I'd put a tick in it (like a V but with one arm
>> longer than the other).
>
>I imagine you've seen here that in America, that's called a check or
>check mark.
>
>But do all left-handers make the left arm longer (at least in a series
>of such marks), as Tony Cooper says, or only some?

I do.

>> Would it make any difference, as long as the box is marked in some way?
>
>You'd avoid the situation that bert is almost sure of, where a person
>understood or claimed to understand it as "inspect the box".

I would assume that that was the job of the person who drew the box, and not
mine.

And I've heard of a "Checklist" -- by which I understand an agenda, or
shopping list or something that you check to see if you have done all the
tasks on it, or bought all the items, and cross off the completed ones. So you
check to see which are not completed, rather than to check the formatting of
the list itself.

People like airline pilots have such checklists, which they check to see if
there is anything they have forgotten to do in preparation for take off or
landing -- check that the flaps are set for take off, check that the wheels
are down for landing -- things like that.



--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

[Steve Hayes]

On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 00:57:10 -0400, Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm>
wrote:

>On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 08:07:31 +0800, Robert Bannister wrote:
>> Some forms, especially those that will be read electronically, are very
>> particular about what you put in the boxes. Should it be a tick, a cross
>> or a diagonal line, and if the latter, should it slope forwards or
>> backwards and how will I know which is which?
>>
>
>True, but I'm talking about software, not forms. (I should have
>said; I simply failed to think about the possibility people might
>think I was talking of forms.)
>
>When you select yes/no options in Windows programs, you click your
>mouse into a box to place or remove a check mark there. Standard AmE
>for that, in context, is "check the box" or "uncheck the box". Is
>that understood -- in that context - by BrE speakers also, or is
>there some other verb I could use that would be understood by BrE and
>AmE speakers and would not look too odd to either?

Click (in) the box.

[Peter Brooks]

On Apr 12, 6:53 am, Stan Brown <the_stan_br...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 03:56:53 -0700 (PDT), Peter Brooks wrote:
>
> > If you don't want to say 'tick the box', which means 'put a tick in
> > it', you could say 'put a cross in the box', or 'fill in the box'.
>
> "Put a cross in the box" is clearly wrong.  The mark isn't a cross
> (or an X, as AmE speakers would say). It's a check mark like 20 of
> the 22 shown here:
>
> https://www.google.com/images?q=check+mark
>
> "Tick the box" is clearly unidiomatic for AmE, and I think a
> substantial minority or even a majority would not understand what I
> meant.  I believe that "check the box" is unidiomatic for BrE, but my
> question is whether it's as bad for a Brit as "tick the box" is for a
> Yank.
>
> In this context (Web pages), my number one concern is
> comprehensibility, with brevity a close second.  I'm not terribly
> concerned with being idiomatic.  If a Brit looks at it and says
> "well, I know what he means, but he probably thinks a lorry is a
> 'truck'", I can live with that.  My question is: is "check the box",
> in a computer context, comprehensible to most BrE speakers?
>

If it's a web page, why not use the html5 options instead? That way
the person doing it can use a mouse only. For example, instead of
ticking anything, for each question you simply select the right
answer, possibly by hovering the mouse over it and taking your choice,
or letting the choices rotate before you as if written on the sides of
a hexagonal pencil. That way, the person filling it in can check that
it is all correct at the end by simply reading all the answers. This
is much kinder than looking at a forest of ticks or crosses.

[Peter Brooks]

Such confirmatory lists are very important. A fairly recent study
found that using lists in operating theatres to be sure that
everything that should be done had been done reduced post-operational
mortality very considerably.

[Dr Nick]

Steve Hayes <haye...@telkomsa.net> writes:

> On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 00:57:10 -0400, Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm>
> wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 08:07:31 +0800, Robert Bannister wrote:
>>> Some forms, especially those that will be read electronically, are very
>>> particular about what you put in the boxes. Should it be a tick, a cross
>>> or a diagonal line, and if the latter, should it slope forwards or
>>> backwards and how will I know which is which?
>>>
>>
>>True, but I'm talking about software, not forms. (I should have
>>said; I simply failed to think about the possibility people might
>>think I was talking of forms.)
>>
>>When you select yes/no options in Windows programs, you click your
>>mouse into a box to place or remove a check mark there. Standard AmE
>>for that, in context, is "check the box" or "uncheck the box". Is
>>that understood -- in that context - by BrE speakers also, or is
>>there some other verb I could use that would be understood by BrE and
>>AmE speakers and would not look too odd to either?
>
> Click (in) the box.

But you (well, I) might have tabbed to it and be pressing [space] to
toggle it.

[Mark Brader]

Steve Hayes:

> > People like airline pilots have such checklists, which they check to see if
> > there is anything they have forgotten to do in preparation for take off or
> > landing -- check that the flaps are set for take off, check that the wheels
> > are down for landing -- things like that.

Peter Brooks:

> Such confirmatory lists are very important. A fairly recent study
> found that using lists in operating theatres to be sure that
> everything that should be done had been done reduced post-operational
> mortality very considerably.

ObBook: "The Checklist Manifesto: How to Get Things Right" (2009),
by Atul Gawande <http://gawande.com/>.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "One of the most common diagnoses... was 'Other'."
m...@vex.net | --Atul Gawande, "The Checklist Manifesto"

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

I don't think anybody's yet answered my question of whether they had
actually encountered the phrase used as Rowling used it. Knowing that
the philosopher's stone transmutes base metals to gold doesn't do you
any good when it's being used for it's much-less-commonly-asserted
property to extend life. I was familiar with the phrase, but I
certainly hadn't come across that meaning.

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |The purpose of writing is to inflate
SF Bay Area (1982-) |weak ideas, obscure poor reasoning,
Chicago (1964-1982) |and inhibit clarity. With a little
|practice, writing can be an
evan.kir...@gmail.com |intimidating and impenetrable fog!
| Calvin
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

Steve Hayes <haye...@telkomsa.net> writes:

> On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 00:57:10 -0400, Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm>
> wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 08:07:31 +0800, Robert Bannister wrote:
>>> Some forms, especially those that will be read electronically, are very
>>> particular about what you put in the boxes. Should it be a tick, a cross
>>> or a diagonal line, and if the latter, should it slope forwards or
>>> backwards and how will I know which is which?
>>>
>>
>>True, but I'm talking about software, not forms. (I should have
>>said; I simply failed to think about the possibility people might
>>think I was talking of forms.)
>>
>>When you select yes/no options in Windows programs, you click your
>>mouse into a box to place or remove a check mark there. Standard AmE
>>for that, in context, is "check the box" or "uncheck the box". Is
>>that understood -- in that context - by BrE speakers also, or is
>>there some other verb I could use that would be understood by BrE and
>>AmE speakers and would not look too odd to either?
>
> Click (in) the box.

That only works if you're sure that the box is currently in the
unselected state. Otherwise, it will have exactly the wrong effect.

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |It's like grasping the difference
SF Bay Area (1982-) |between what one usually considers
Chicago (1964-1982) |a 'difficult' problem, and what
|*is* a difficult problem. The day
evan.kir...@gmail.com |one understands *why* counting all
|the molecules in the Universe isn't
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ |difficult...there's the leap.
| Tina Marie Holmboe

[R H Draney]

Robert Bannister filted:

>
>Some forms, especially those that will be read electronically, are very
>particular about what you put in the boxes. Should it be a tick, a cross
>or a diagonal line, and if the latter, should it slope forwards or
>backwards and how will I know which is which?

Diagonal line?...ooh, I don't remember that option being valid since the days we
scored bowling by hand....r


--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

"Peter Duncanson [BrE]" <ma...@peterduncanson.net> writes:

> We had a discussion here within living memory about the BrE and AmE
> understanding of phrases such as "put a cross in the box" and "cross out
> <something>". ISTR the AmE speakers tended to understand "cross" to be a
> Christian-style cross rather than an "x" or a line through some text.
>
> A OneLook.com search for "cross out" is noticeably lacking in results
> from AmE dictionaries:
> http://www.onelook.com/?w=cross+out&ls=a

That may simply reflect a difference in the way AmE dictionaries
present the word. MW gives, for "cross"

3 : to cancel by marking a cross on or drawing a line through :
strike out <cross names off a list>

or, in their unabridged

4 a : to cancel by or as if by marking a cross on or drawing a
line through : strike out : ERADICATE -- usually used with
_off_ or _out_ <cross out a bad debt> <cross names off a
list> <cross out portions of a text>

American Heritage similarly folds it into "cross":

4 a: To delete or eliminate by or as if by drawing a line through:
_crossed tasks off her list as she did them_.

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |When someone's taking time to do
SF Bay Area (1982-) |something right in the present,
Chicago (1964-1982) |they're a perfectionist with no
|ability to prioritize, whereas when
evan.kir...@gmail.com |someone took time to do something
|right in the past, they're a master
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ |artisan of great foresight.
|
| Randall Munroe

[R H Draney]

Evan Kirshenbaum filted:

>
>Steve Hayes <haye...@telkomsa.net> writes:
>
>> On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 00:57:10 -0400, Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>When you select yes/no options in Windows programs, you click your
>>>mouse into a box to place or remove a check mark there. Standard AmE
>>>for that, in context, is "check the box" or "uncheck the box". Is
>>>that understood -- in that context - by BrE speakers also, or is
>>>there some other verb I could use that would be understood by BrE and
>>>AmE speakers and would not look too odd to either?
>>
>> Click (in) the box.
>
>That only works if you're sure that the box is currently in the
>unselected state. Otherwise, it will have exactly the wrong effect.

The natural wording there is "select the box"....r

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

Steve Hayes <haye...@telkomsa.net> writes:

> On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 06:51:43 -0400, Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm>
> wrote:
>
>>Among my duties is writing instructions for doing various things in
>>software. In AmE we say "check the box next to the word Dynamic",
>>meaning to place a check mark in that box.
>>
>>I believe the BrE verb would be "tick", but would most BrE readers
>>understand "check" (verb) to mean "tick" in this context? Or do I
>>need to say "Check (tick) the box. ..."?
>>
>>Is there some verb with similar meaning that is equally well used in
>>BrE and AmE?
>
> If asked to "check" the box, I'd put an X in it.
>
> If asked to "tick" the box, I'd put a tick in it (like a V but with
> one arm longer than the other).

Whereas that's what I'd do if asked to check the box. If asked to
tick it, I would probably put a tick mark in it, which I learned as a
little backwards "N".

> Would it make any difference, as long as the box is marked in some way?

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |Whatever it is that the government
SF Bay Area (1982-) |does, sensible Americans would prefer
Chicago (1964-1982) |that the government do it to somebody
|else.
evan.kir...@gmail.com | P.J. O'Rourke

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

[R H Draney]

Peter Brooks filted:

>
>If it's a web page, why not use the html5 options instead? That way
>the person doing it can use a mouse only. For example, instead of
>ticking anything, for each question you simply select the right
>answer, possibly by hovering the mouse over it and taking your choice,
>or letting the choices rotate before you as if written on the sides of
>a hexagonal pencil. That way, the person filling it in can check that
>it is all correct at the end by simply reading all the answers. This
>is much kinder than looking at a forest of ticks or crosses.

Ever try to "hover the mouse over" a field on a tablet?...r

[R H Draney]

Mark Brader filted:

>
>Steve Hayes:
>> > People like airline pilots have such checklists, which they check to see if
>> > there is anything they have forgotten to do in preparation for take off or
>> > landing -- check that the flaps are set for take off, check that the wheels
>> > are down for landing -- things like that.
>
>Peter Brooks:
>> Such confirmatory lists are very important. A fairly recent study
>> found that using lists in operating theatres to be sure that
>> everything that should be done had been done reduced post-operational
>> mortality very considerably.
>
>ObBook: "The Checklist Manifesto: How to Get Things Right" (2009),
>by Atul Gawande <http://gawande.com/>.

I'll bet someone along the way suggested "The Manifest Manifesto", but it got
voted down....r

[Cheryl]

The philosopher's stone was one of the many things I picked up on my
own, rather than being taught about in school.

Checking or ticking things, on the other hand, wasn't just done in
school, but has been a characteristic of the infinite number of forms
I've had to fill out since.

I know both terms, but I think I'd use 'check' by default. I can't speak
for the BrE people.

--
Cheryl

[Jerry Friedman]

On Apr 12, 2:22 am, Evan Kirshenbaum <evan.kirshenb...@gmail.com>
wrote:
...

> I don't think anybody's yet answered my question of whether they had
> actually encountered the phrase used as Rowling used it.  Knowing that
> the philosopher's stone transmutes base metals to gold doesn't do you
> any good when it's being used for it's much-less-commonly-asserted
> property to extend life.  I was familiar with the phrase, but I
> certainly hadn't come across that meaning.

Okay, I knew it was supposed to do both. I learned it in childhood
but not in school--probably from an encyclopedia.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Jerry Friedman]

On Apr 11, 3:43 pm, Mike Barnes <mikebarnes...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Jerry Friedman <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com>:

>
> >But do all left-handers make the left arm longer (at least in a series
> >of such marks), as Tony Cooper says, or only some?
>

> I'm left handed and my ticks (check marks) are the usual way round. I
> don't recall ever seeing one the other way round, and I must have seen
> many written by left handers.

I've seen left-handers write them the way Tony does. I don't have a
feeling for how common that is.

> I don't write anything else back-to-front, or even sloping backwards.

As I've mentioned before, I didn't feel that writing Hebrew was hard
for me as a right-hander. I don't know what it would have been like
if there were a lot of lines slanted the "wrong" way, but I had no
trouble with the many vertical lines, or the many clockwise curves.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Tony Cooper]

I was encouraged* to do outside reading by both my parents and my
teachers, but I don't consider that to be a mark of my education. I
was not encouraged to read any particular type of book, though, unless
it was a school assignment.

I don't know what type of book would have a reference to a
philosopher's stone, but it evidently wasn't the type of book that
interested me. I was well into adulthood before coming across the
term.

I think the "poor education" reference is just another bit of arrogant
conceit comparable to saying not knowing what an infield fly is an
indication of a poor education because the person didn't read any John
Tunis novels as a youngster.

I have never been interested in the "fantasy" genre. I think I'm one
of the few here who have never cracked the cover of Pratchett book.
Had the Harry Potter books been around when I was young, I might have
read one just because it was so popular, but I might have stopped at
one.

*I should say "not discouraged", instead. The interest was
self-induced.

[Mike L]

On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 08:16:16 +0800, Robert Bannister
<rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:

>On 12/04/13 5:11 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> On Apr 11, 2:42 pm, R H Draney <dadoc...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>>> Jerry Friedman filted:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Apr 11, 10:54=A0am, Steve Hayes <hayes...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 06:51:43 -0400, Stan Brown <the_stan_br...@fastmail.f=

>>>> m>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> Among my duties is writing instructions for doing various things in

>>>>>> software. =A0In AmE we say "check the box next to the word Dynamic",

>>>>>> meaning to place a check mark in that box.
>>>
>>>>>> I believe the BrE verb would be "tick", but would most BrE readers

>>>>>> understand "check" (verb) to mean "tick" in this context? =A0Or do I

>>>>>> need to say "Check (tick) the box. ..."?
>>>
>>>>>> Is there some verb with similar meaning that is equally well used in
>>>>>> BrE and AmE?
>>>

>>>>> If asked to "check" the box, I'd put an X in it.
>>>

>>>>> If asked to "tick" the box, I'd put a tick in it (like a V but with one a=

>>>> rm
>>>>> longer than the other).
>>>
>>>> I imagine you've seen here that in America, that's called a check or
>>>> check mark.
>>>

>>> In America, a "tick" is either a sound or a bloodsucking crustacean....
>>
>> (Arachnid.)

As, of course, also in OtherE.
>>
>> Once in a while a "tick" can be part of a mattress, I think.
>
>I thought that was "ticking".

Ticks seem to be made out of ticking, just as sacks are made out of
sacking. I remember the old Witney blanket catalogue used to offer
empty "pillow ticks", back when things used to be repaired. They were,
of course, tough black-and-white stripey jobs.
[...]

--
Mike.

[Jerry Friedman]

On Apr 11, 4:27 pm, woll...@bimajority.org (Garrett Wollman) wrote:
> In article <mZRKHcJW6yZRF...@34klh41lk4h1lk34h3lk4h1k4.invalid>,

> Mike Barnes  <mikebarnes...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >I'm left handed and my ticks (check marks) are the usual way round. I
> >don't recall ever seeing one the other way round, and I must have seen
> >many written by left handers.
>

> Hmmm.

>
> In school, if your teacher made such a mark on a paper you handed it
> in, would that mean that you had gotten the question right or wrong?

> (For me it would certainly be "correct", although a large "C" was at
> least as common, but I remember being very confused once when talking
> to someone who insisted that it indicated an error.  And in Finland,
> they used a percent sign to indicate a correct answer, which was even
> more confusing.)

I use a check for "right" and an x for "wrong", but students have
occasionally asked me what my check marks meant. (There couldn't have
been many x's on their papers, if any.) I think I remember that C
from elementary school.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Mike L]

I've lost it now, but I used to find Arabic script slightly easier, if
anything, to write neatly than Roman. I've a scruffy hand, though, so
my evidence isn't worth a lot, and perhaps I was just trying harder.

--
Mike.

[Mike L]

So long ago, but I think I thought there were two distinct products:
Stone did the metal transmutation, but you needed a liquid Elixir of
Life for immortality...checks (not "ticks")...no, that's apparently
wrong, or at best an over-simplification.

--
Mike.

[Peter Young]

Old British joke: the child says, "I think my teacher loves me; she
puts kisses all over my work".

Peter.


--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk

[R H Draney]

Jerry Friedman filted:
>
>On Apr 12, 2:22=A0am, Evan Kirshenbaum <evan.kirshenb...@gmail.com>

>wrote:
>...
>
>> I don't think anybody's yet answered my question of whether they had

>> actually encountered the phrase used as Rowling used it. =A0Knowing that

>> the philosopher's stone transmutes base metals to gold doesn't do you
>> any good when it's being used for it's much-less-commonly-asserted

>> property to extend life. =A0I was familiar with the phrase, but I

>> certainly hadn't come across that meaning.
>
>Okay, I knew it was supposed to do both. I learned it in childhood
>but not in school--probably from an encyclopedia.

Pretty sure I learned about it from a comic book....r

[Stan Brown]

On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 06:51:43 -0400, Stan Brown wrote:
>
> Among my duties is writing instructions for doing various things in

> software. In AmE we say "check the box next to the word Dynamic",

> meaning to place a check mark in that box.
>
> I believe the BrE verb would be "tick", but would most BrE readers

> understand "check" (verb) to mean "tick" in this context? Or do I

> need to say "Check (tick) the box. ..."?
>
> Is there some verb with similar meaning that is equally well used in
> BrE and AmE?

As it happened -- as it was _supposed_ to happen[1] -- a UK customer
phoned me (metric spelling: "rang me") today, and I asked him this
question. His answer was that most UK folks would probably understand
"check the box" as Yank for "click your mouse in the box so as to put
a tick mark there", but that using both verbs "check" and "tick"
would give the impression that I value BrE customers. So I guess
that's what I'll do.

[1] Vonnegut, /Cat's Cradle/ -- a book I read probably 30 years ago
and have been meaning to reread.

[Stan Brown]

My UK customer said that "select" is for radio buttons; I think
that's standard AmE computer-speak also. He said UK computer users
would use the mouse to tick the box, where US users would check the
box.

[Stan Brown]

On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 01:32:42 -0700, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>
> That may simply reflect a difference in the way AmE dictionaries
> present the word. MW gives, for "cross"
>
> 3 : to cancel by marking a cross on or drawing a line through :
> strike out <cross names off a list>
>
> or, in their unabridged
>
> 4 a : to cancel by or as if by marking a cross on or drawing a
> line through : strike out : ERADICATE -- usually used with
> _off_ or _out_ <cross out a bad debt> <cross names off a
> list> <cross out portions of a text>
>
> American Heritage similarly folds it into "cross":
>
> 4 a: To delete or eliminate by or as if by drawing a line through:
> _crossed tasks off her list as she did them_.

Do UK folks still "cross" checks? IIRC, that's kind of he opposite
of canceling them.

[Robert Bannister]

On 12/04/13 4:32 PM, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
> "Peter Duncanson [BrE]" <ma...@peterduncanson.net> writes:
>
>> We had a discussion here within living memory about the BrE and AmE
>> understanding of phrases such as "put a cross in the box" and "cross out
>> <something>". ISTR the AmE speakers tended to understand "cross" to be a
>> Christian-style cross rather than an "x" or a line through some text.
>>
>> A OneLook.com search for "cross out" is noticeably lacking in results
>> from AmE dictionaries:
>> http://www.onelook.com/?w=cross+out&ls=a
>
> That may simply reflect a difference in the way AmE dictionaries
> present the word. MW gives, for "cross"
>
> 3 : to cancel by marking a cross on or drawing a line through :
> strike out <cross names off a list>
>
> or, in their unabridged
>
> 4 a : to cancel by or as if by marking a cross on or drawing a
> line through : strike out : ERADICATE -- usually used with
> _off_ or _out_ <cross out a bad debt> <cross names off a
> list> <cross out portions of a text>
>
> American Heritage similarly folds it into "cross":
>
> 4 a: To delete or eliminate by or as if by drawing a line through:
> _crossed tasks off her list as she did them_.
>

Interesting that they don't list it separately as "cross off".
I rather doubt that the result of "cross off" and "cross out" are
markedly different, but the action or the intention is slightly different.

--
Robert Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

On 12/04/13 10:15 AM, Tony Cooper wrote:

> On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 08:11:41 +0800, Robert Bannister
> <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:
>
>> On 12/04/13 6:02 AM, Mike L wrote:
>>> On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 03:56:53 -0700 (PDT), Peter Brooks
>>> <peter.h....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>

>>>> On Apr 11, 12:51 pm, Stan Brown <the_stan_br...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>>>>> Among my duties is writing instructions for doing various things in
>>>>> software. In AmE we say "check the box next to the word Dynamic",
>>>>> meaning to place a check mark in that box.
>>>>>
>>>>> I believe the BrE verb would be "tick", but would most BrE readers
>>>>> understand "check" (verb) to mean "tick" in this context? Or do I
>>>>> need to say "Check (tick) the box. ..."?
>>>>>
>>>>> Is there some verb with similar meaning that is equally well used in
>>>>> BrE and AmE?
>>>>>

>>>> I always have a look to make sure that the box is really there and
>>>> properly square when asked to check it.
>>>>
>>>> If you don't want to say 'tick the box', which means 'put a tick in
>>>> it', you could say 'put a cross in the box', or 'fill in the box'.
>>>
>>> So not knowing about the philosophers' stone is a sign of poor
>>> education in children, but reaching middle age without having noticed
>>> what "check" means in this context is OK. Ri-i-ight.
>>>
>>
>> The Philosopher's Stone has been on record for centuries.
>
> Part of any class study, though? I consider myself reasonably well
> educated, but I don't recall the Philosopher's Stone being brought up
> any class at any level.
>
> Am I wrong? Am I the victim of a poor education?
>
>
>
>
>

>> Check" is not
>> only relatively new, the exact meaning has so far not been agreed on. A
>> lot depends on whether the results will be read by a human or a machine
>> - the latter may be a lot more choosy about which kind of check mark is
>> entered.

It was mentioned both in our chemistry and history classes at school.

--
Robert Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

I would hope we all agree on that. The way the phrase is used in the
book is presented in the book, so there's no problem there for the
reader. The point was, would American or any other children be put off
by the title? My feeling is that it wouldn't really matter whether they
were familiar with the phrase or not - the selling point would be the
cover art or the blurb or, as it turned out very soon after the book's
d�but, word of mouth. It is the publisher's reason for changing the
title that is spurious - it surely didn't matter whether the phrase was
familiar or not.

--
Robert Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

I'm sure many of us learnt more from them than from our teachers.

--
Robert Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

On 12/04/13 12:57 PM, Stan Brown wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 08:07:31 +0800, Robert Bannister wrote:

>> Some forms, especially those that will be read electronically, are very
>> particular about what you put in the boxes. Should it be a tick, a cross
>> or a diagonal line, and if the latter, should it slope forwards or
>> backwards and how will I know which is which?
>>
>

> True, but I'm talking about software, not forms. (I should have
> said; I simply failed to think about the possibility people might
> think I was talking of forms.)
>

> When you select yes/no options in Windows programs, you click your
> mouse into a box to place or remove a check mark there. Standard AmE
> for that, in context, is "check the box" or "uncheck the box". Is
> that understood -- in that context - by BrE speakers also, or is
> there some other verb I could use that would be understood by BrE and
> AmE speakers and would not look too odd to either?
>

Click in the box. There's a more appropriate word than "box" here, but
it won't come into my head.

--
Robert Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

On 12/04/13 3:04 PM, Dr Nick wrote:
> Steve Hayes <haye...@telkomsa.net> writes:
>
>> On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 00:57:10 -0400, Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm>

>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 08:07:31 +0800, Robert Bannister wrote:
>>>> Some forms, especially those that will be read electronically, are very
>>>> particular about what you put in the boxes. Should it be a tick, a cross
>>>> or a diagonal line, and if the latter, should it slope forwards or
>>>> backwards and how will I know which is which?
>>>>
>>>
>>> True, but I'm talking about software, not forms. (I should have
>>> said; I simply failed to think about the possibility people might
>>> think I was talking of forms.)
>>>
>>> When you select yes/no options in Windows programs, you click your
>>> mouse into a box to place or remove a check mark there. Standard AmE
>>> for that, in context, is "check the box" or "uncheck the box". Is
>>> that understood -- in that context - by BrE speakers also, or is
>>> there some other verb I could use that would be understood by BrE and
>>> AmE speakers and would not look too odd to either?
>>

>> Click (in) the box.
>
> But you (well, I) might have tabbed to it and be pressing [space] to
> toggle it.
>

I would not exactly expect the space bar to work that way unless the
software suggested it. Tab to it, yes, but <return> is more likely than
<space> to achieve a mouse click in my experience.

--
Robert Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

On 12/04/13 4:24 PM, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
> Steve Hayes <haye...@telkomsa.net> writes:
>
>> On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 00:57:10 -0400, Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 08:07:31 +0800, Robert Bannister wrote:
>>>> Some forms, especially those that will be read electronically, are very
>>>> particular about what you put in the boxes. Should it be a tick, a cross
>>>> or a diagonal line, and if the latter, should it slope forwards or
>>>> backwards and how will I know which is which?
>>>>
>>>
>>> True, but I'm talking about software, not forms. (I should have
>>> said; I simply failed to think about the possibility people might
>>> think I was talking of forms.)
>>>
>>> When you select yes/no options in Windows programs, you click your
>>> mouse into a box to place or remove a check mark there. Standard AmE
>>> for that, in context, is "check the box" or "uncheck the box". Is
>>> that understood -- in that context - by BrE speakers also, or is
>>> there some other verb I could use that would be understood by BrE and
>>> AmE speakers and would not look too odd to either?
>>
>> Click (in) the box.
>

> That only works if you're sure that the box is currently in the
> unselected state. Otherwise, it will have exactly the wrong effect.
>

But is that not what "checking" will do too? Anyway, it would be a
pretty silly form that told you to check, cross, fill in, click in boxes
and then had some of them already filled in. I have to give the software
designer credit for some sense.

--
Robert Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

On 12/04/13 4:30 PM, R H Draney wrote:
> Robert Bannister filted:

>>
>> Some forms, especially those that will be read electronically, are very
>> particular about what you put in the boxes. Should it be a tick, a cross
>> or a diagonal line, and if the latter, should it slope forwards or
>> backwards and how will I know which is which?
>

> Diagonal line?...ooh, I don't remember that option being valid since the days we
> scored bowling by hand....r
>
>

There is some form I fill in occasionally - census? - that requires a
horizontal bar. The instructions are something like "fill in with a 2B
pencil" but the boxes are like closed in equals signs so a horizontal
line does the trick.

--
Robert Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

I shall lie (or in modern English, "lay") corrected.

--
Robert Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

On 12/04/13 1:13 PM, Steve Hayes wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 11:37:15 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
> <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> On Apr 11, 10:54 am, Steve Hayes <hayes...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 06:51:43 -0400, Stan Brown <the_stan_br...@fastmail.fm>

>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Among my duties is writing instructions for doing various things in

>>>> software. In AmE we say "check the box next to the word Dynamic",

>>>> meaning to place a check mark in that box.
>>>
>>>> I believe the BrE verb would be "tick", but would most BrE readers

>>>> understand "check" (verb) to mean "tick" in this context? Or do I

>>>> need to say "Check (tick) the box. ..."?
>>>
>>>> Is there some verb with similar meaning that is equally well used in
>>>> BrE and AmE?
>>>
>>> If asked to "check" the box, I'd put an X in it.
>>>

>>> If asked to "tick" the box, I'd put a tick in it (like a V but with one arm

>>> longer than the other).
>>
>> I imagine you've seen here that in America, that's called a check or
>> check mark.
>>

>> But do all left-handers make the left arm longer (at least in a series
>> of such marks), as Tony Cooper says, or only some?
>

> I do.

>
>>> Would it make any difference, as long as the box is marked in some way?
>>

>> You'd avoid the situation that bert is almost sure of, where a person
>> understood or claimed to understand it as "inspect the box".
>
> I would assume that that was the job of the person who drew the box, and not
> mine.
>
> And I've heard of a "Checklist" -- by which I understand an agenda, or
> shopping list or something that you check to see if you have done all the
> tasks on it, or bought all the items, and cross off the completed ones. So you
> check to see which are not completed, rather than to check the formatting of
> the list itself.

>
> People like airline pilots have such checklists, which they check to see if
> there is anything they have forgotten to do in preparation for take off or
> landing -- check that the flaps are set for take off, check that the wheels
> are down for landing -- things like that.

I would think we were all familiar with "checklist", but it is not
something that is marked in a specific way if at all. That, to my mind,
is the problem with "check". Check in what way? So long as there is an
example of some sort, there should be no problem whatever word is used -
"brzzkle the boxes in this way: [/] I agree; [x] I disagree" is pretty
clear.

PS My spelling checker does not like "checklist" as one word.

--
Robert Bannister

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

Yeah, but there's no way they could have predicted that when they
bought the rights. It's not like there was a huge market for such
things beforehand.

> It is the publisher's reason for changing the title that is spurious
> - it surely didn't matter whether the phrase was familiar or not.

I agree that familiarity didn't matter. I'm not sure I agree that the
reason was spurious. If you're bringing out a book by a foreign
author who has zero name recognition and you hope to get at least
moderate sales among kids, I can certainly see you reasoning "More
kids will pick up a book about sorcerers than a book about
philosophers".[1] Especially since, as you note, what was important
about this particular rock was explained in the book. That it
happened to be the same stone that some kids might remember under a
different name is no more important than that Nicholas Flamel, also
mentioned in the book happened to be a real fourteenth-century
alchemist that a much smaller number of kids might have heard of.

[1] And, frankly, fewer idiot booksellers will shelve it in the
philosophy section where nobody will buy it. Marvin Harris wrote
in the author's note to his anthropology book about food
preferences and taboos,_The Sacred Cow and the Abominable Pig_,

Except for its title, this book is exactly the same book as
_Good to Eat: Riddles of Food and Culture_. So why change the
title? The problem was that too many bookstores and libraries
were treating it as if it were a cookbook.

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |ActiveX is pretty harmless anyway.
SF Bay Area (1982-) |It can't affect you unless you
Chicago (1964-1982) |install Windows, and who would be
|foolish enough to do that?
evan.kir...@gmail.com | Peter Moylan

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> writes:

> On 12/04/13 4:24 PM, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>> Steve Hayes <haye...@telkomsa.net> writes:
>>
>>> On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 00:57:10 -0400, Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 08:07:31 +0800, Robert Bannister wrote:
>>>>> Some forms, especially those that will be read electronically, are very
>>>>> particular about what you put in the boxes. Should it be a tick, a cross
>>>>> or a diagonal line, and if the latter, should it slope forwards or
>>>>> backwards and how will I know which is which?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> True, but I'm talking about software, not forms. (I should have
>>>> said; I simply failed to think about the possibility people might
>>>> think I was talking of forms.)
>>>>
>>>> When you select yes/no options in Windows programs, you click your
>>>> mouse into a box to place or remove a check mark there. Standard AmE
>>>> for that, in context, is "check the box" or "uncheck the box". Is
>>>> that understood -- in that context - by BrE speakers also, or is
>>>> there some other verb I could use that would be understood by BrE and
>>>> AmE speakers and would not look too odd to either?
>>>
>>> Click (in) the box.
>>
>> That only works if you're sure that the box is currently in the
>> unselected state. Otherwise, it will have exactly the wrong effect.
>>
>
> But is that not what "checking" will do too?

Yes, but "checking" set up an expectation that let's you say "It's
already checked; I probably shouldn't uncheck it". "Clicking"
doesn't.

> Anyway, it would be a pretty silly form that told you to check,
> cross, fill in, click in boxes and then had some of them already
> filled in. I have to give the software designer credit for some
> sense.

It's not uncommon for some options to be selected by default.

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |The reason that we don't have
SF Bay Area (1982-) |"bear-proof" garbage cans in the
Chicago (1964-1982) |park is that there is a significant
|overlap in intelligence between the
evan.kir...@gmail.com |smartest bears and the dumbest
|humans.
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | Yosemite Park Ranger

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

The Microsoft user interaction guidelines say

Use the SPACEBAR key as the default action of a control, such as
for pressing a button control or toggling the status of a check
box control. This is similar to clicking the left or primary mouse
button.

Use the ENTER key for the default action of a dialog box, if
available.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms971323.aspx

I would guess that with touchscreen-based Windows systems, users would
expect to be able to touch the box to toggle it.

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |Bullwinkle: You sure that's the
SF Bay Area (1982-) | only way?
Chicago (1964-1982) |Rocky: Well, if you're going to be
| a hero, you've got to do
evan.kir...@gmail.com | stupid things every once in
| a while.
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

[Tony Cooper]

When I had an active pilot's license, I went through a checklist
before getting in the cockpit. Nothing was physically checked,
though. I used the same card to read off the checklist items until I
had it so completely memorized that I felt no need to pull it out.

[Peter Brooks]

On Apr 13, 12:26 am, Stan Brown <the_stan_br...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 01:32:42 -0700, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>
> > That may simply reflect a difference in the way AmE dictionaries
> > present the word.  MW gives, for "cross"
>
> >     3 : to cancel by marking a cross on or drawing a line through :
> >         strike out <cross names off a list>
>
> > or, in their unabridged
>
> >     4 a : to cancel by or as if by marking a cross on or drawing a
> >           line through : strike out : ERADICATE -- usually used with
> >           _off_ or _out_ <cross out a bad debt> <cross names off a
> >           list> <cross out portions of a text>
>
> > American Heritage similarly folds it into "cross":
>
> >     4 a: To delete or eliminate by or as if by drawing a line through:
> >          _crossed tasks off her list as she did them_.
>
> Do UK folks still "cross" checks?  IIRC, that's kind of he opposite
> of canceling them.
>

No, in most of the world, people cross cheques.

[Jerry Friedman]

On Apr 12, 2:32 am, Evan Kirshenbaum <evan.kirshenb...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> "Peter Duncanson [BrE]" <m...@peterduncanson.net> writes:
>
> > We had a discussion here within living memory about the BrE and AmE
> > understanding of phrases such as "put a cross in the box" and "cross out
> > <something>". ISTR the AmE speakers tended to understand "cross" to be a
> > Christian-style cross rather than an "x" or a line through some text.
>
> > A OneLook.com search for "cross out" is noticeably lacking in results
> > from AmE dictionaries:
> >http://www.onelook.com/?w=cross+out&ls=a
>

> That may simply reflect a difference in the way AmE dictionaries
> present the word.  MW gives, for "cross"
>
>     3 : to cancel by marking a cross on or drawing a line through :
>         strike out <cross names off a list>
>
> or, in their unabridged
>
>     4 a : to cancel by or as if by marking a cross on or drawing a
>           line through : strike out : ERADICATE -- usually used with
>           _off_ or _out_ <cross out a bad debt> <cross names off a
>           list> <cross out portions of a text>
>
> American Heritage similarly folds it into "cross":
>
>     4 a: To delete or eliminate by or as if by drawing a line through:
>          _crossed tasks off her list as she did them_.

I seem to have missed that. The M-W definitions, especially the
unabridged one, are distinctly better.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Joy Beeson]

On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:11:27 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
<jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Once in a while a "tick" can be part of a mattress, I think.

Or a pillow.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://roughsewing.home.comcast.net/
The above message is a Usenet post.
I don't recall having given anyone permission to use it on a Web site.

[Mark Brader]

Evan Kirshenbaum:

> I agree that familiarity didn't matter. I'm not sure I agree that the
> reason was spurious. If you're bringing out a book by a foreign
> author who has zero name recognition and you hope to get at least
> moderate sales among kids, I can certainly see you reasoning "More
> kids will pick up a book about sorcerers than a book about
> philosophers".[1]

Hear, hear.

> Especially since, as you note, what was important
> about this particular rock was explained in the book.

I do think it would have been best to introduce the phrase "philosopher's
stone" *at that point*, after keeping it out of the title. The US edition
of the book and movie actually stayed with "sorcerer's stone" throughout.

> That it
> happened to be the same stone that some kids might remember under a
> different name is no more important than that Nicholas Flamel, also
> mentioned in the book happened to be a real fourteenth-century
> alchemist that a much smaller number of kids might have heard of.

I was amused to notice, last time I was in Paris, that he has a street
there named after him.

http://qsview.com/2minrqz3gi1h0z21pzqez8k

The small print gives his dates of 1330-1418 and then says "�CRIVAIN ET
ALCHIMISTE FRAN�AIS".

> [1] And, frankly, fewer idiot booksellers will shelve it in the
> philosophy section where nobody will buy it. Marvin Harris wrote
> in the author's note to his anthropology book about food
> preferences and taboos,_The Sacred Cow and the Abominable Pig_,
>
> Except for its title, this book is exactly the same book as
> _Good to Eat: Riddles of Food and Culture_. So why change the
> title? The problem was that too many bookstores and libraries
> were treating it as if it were a cookbook.

Similarly, Donald Norman's title "The Psychology of Everyday Things"
had to be changed to "The Design of Everyday Things", which sounds to
me at least as if it refers mainly to artistic considerations and not
psychological ones, because the people who design those things didn't
think they had anything to do with psychology.
--
Mark Brader | "Whose tracks these are I think I know;
Toronto | The railroad has gone bankrupt, though..."
m...@vex.net | --Michael Wares (after Frost)

My text in this article is in the public domain.

[Dr Nick]

Distinctly different in mood I'd say. If I had a to-do list and found
out that something was unnecessary I'd cross it out. If I actually did
anything on it I'd cross it off.

[Dr Nick]

In that case you'd be surprised: there's a good chance the form would be
submitted when you pressed [return].

And yes, I did just go off and check a live example.

[Dr Nick]

Evan Kirshenbaum <evan.kir...@gmail.com> writes:

> Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> writes:
>
>> Anyway, it would be a pretty silly form that told you to check,
>> cross, fill in, click in boxes and then had some of them already
>> filled in. I have to give the software designer credit for some
>> sense.
>
> It's not uncommon for some options to be selected by default.

It's not. I'm curious to know the circumstances in which the
explanation is necessary. Surely if you have a list of options, each
with a nice box by it, it's pretty obvious what the option being
"selected" means (and different browsers have, over the years, used
different symbols for selected checkboxes anyway).

In particular, if you make the text such that anyone clicking on it
toggles the box (incredibly easy in HTML at least these days: although I
used to use a macro to spit out Javascript to do it, all you now need is
the "label" tag) then even the most inexperienced person will surely try
clicking or something and find out what happens.

[Mike Barnes]

Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm>:

>Do UK folks still "cross" checks? IIRC, that's kind of he opposite
>of canceling them.

Cheques are becoming rare in the UK. They're almost always pre-crossed
anyway, so folks don't have to cross them. Decades ago when I used to
cross cheques, it was done with two oblique lines //. The pre-printed
crosses are vertical IME.

e.g.
http://homepages.lboro.ac.uk/~corgs/images/MarketTradersCheque.jpg

--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England

[Mike Barnes]

Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com>:

I certainly would expect the space bar to work that way. It always does
IME. The enter key generally submits the form. If you habitually filled
in computer forms using just the keyboard, as I do, you'd probably know
that. Different keys act as "clicks" in different places.

[Steve Hayes]

On Sat, 13 Apr 2013 07:21:13 +0800, Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com>

wrote:

>On 12/04/13 10:15 AM, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 08:11:41 +0800, Robert Bannister
>> <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:
>>> The Philosopher's Stone has been on record for centuries.
>>
>> Part of any class study, though? I consider myself reasonably well
>> educated, but I don't recall the Philosopher's Stone being brought up
>> any class at any level.
>>
>> Am I wrong? Am I the victim of a poor education?

>It was mentioned both in our chemistry and history classes at school.

When I started learning chemistry at school, at the age of 11, it was there in
the introduction to our chemistry textbook, telling about the history of
chemistry as a field of study, and how the motives had changed over the
centuries. It was there that I learnt about the Philosopher's Stone,
phlogiston, and the Unitarian religion.

Since the textbook was published in the UK, and therefore presumably used in
Britsh schools, I imagine quite a lot of kids learned about it in the same
way.


--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

[Lanarcam]

Le 12/04/2013 23:07, Mike L a �crit :
> On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 06:40:41 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
> <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> On Apr 12, 2:22 am, Evan Kirshenbaum <evan.kirshenb...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> ...

>>
>>> I don't think anybody's yet answered my question of whether they had
>>> actually encountered the phrase used as Rowling used it. Knowing that
>>> the philosopher's stone transmutes base metals to gold doesn't do you
>>> any good when it's being used for it's much-less-commonly-asserted
>>> property to extend life. I was familiar with the phrase, but I
>>> certainly hadn't come across that meaning.
>>

>> Okay, I knew it was supposed to do both. I learned it in childhood
>> but not in school--probably from an encyclopedia.
>

> So long ago, but I think I thought there were two distinct products:
> Stone did the metal transmutation, but you needed a liquid Elixir of
> Life for immortality...checks (not "ticks")...no, that's apparently
> wrong, or at best an over-simplification.
>
There is a long tradition of alchemy which dates back to
the late antiquity.

Carl Jung had studied it from the point of view of
archetyps:

Le Christ est le Dieu-Esprit qui descend du ciel et s'incarne ;
la pierre philosophale est une mati�re obscure et vile o�
l'esprit divin, dont elle porte le germe, s'�panouira en
son temps.

Christ is the God-Spirit who goes down from Heaven and
becomes incarnate. The philosophers' stone is a dark vile
matter where the divine spirit whose germ it possesses will
grow when the time is ripe.

Toutefois, les v�ritables adeptes avaient conscience de
la port�e de leur �uvre. Ils se donnaient le titre de
philosophes et ne cessaient de proclamer que leur or
n'est pas l'or du vulgaire (aurum non vulgi), que leur
joyau est une pierre d'invisibilit� et d'immortalit�.

However, the true adepts were conscious of the scope
of their oeuvre. They named themselves philosophs and
always claimed that their gold was not the gold of the
vulgar (aurum non vulgi), that their jewel was a stone
of invisibility and immortality.

[Steve Hayes]

On Sat, 13 Apr 2013 09:58:48 +0000 (UTC), Lewis
<g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

>In message <pqp5LyM7...@34klh41lk4h1lk34h3lk4h1k4.invalid>

>OK, what are the lines for? I've never seen vertical or diagonal lines
>on a check I don't think.

Google is your friend:

A crossed cheque is a cheque that can only be deposited directly into an
account with a bank and cannot be immediately cashed by a bank over the
counter. The format and wording varies from country to country, but generally
two parallel lines and/or the words 'Account Payee' or similar may be placed
either vertically across the cheque or in the top left hand corner. By using
crossed cheques, cheque writers can effectively protect the cheques they write
from being stolen and cashed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossing_of_cheques

[Stan Brown]

On Sat, 13 Apr 2013 07:37:11 +0800, Robert Bannister wrote:
> I would not exactly expect the space bar to work that way unless the
> software suggested it. Tab to it, yes, but <return> is more likely than
> <space> to achieve a mouse click in my experience.
>

Actually, space = click when a box has focus is standard Windows.
The Enter key usually = clicking the OK button in that situation.

--
"The difference between the /almost right/ word and the /right/ word
is ... the difference between the lightning-bug and the lightning."
--Mark Twain
Stan Brown, Tompkins County, NY, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Sat, 13 Apr 2013 09:58:48 +0000 (UTC), Lewis
<g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

>In message <pqp5LyM7...@34klh41lk4h1lk34h3lk4h1k4.invalid>
> Mike Barnes <mikeba...@gmail.com> wrote:

>OK, what are the lines for? I've never seen vertical or diagonal lines
>on a check I don't think.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossed_cheque

A crossed cheque is a cheque that can only be deposited directly
into an account with a bank and cannot be immediately cashed by a
bank over the counter. The format and wording varies from country to
country, but generally two parallel lines and/or the words 'Account
Payee' or similar may be placed either vertically across the cheque
or in the top left hand corner. By using crossed cheques, cheque
writers can effectively protect the cheques they write from being
stolen and cashed.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Cheryl]

Ah, I never did understand what a crossed cheque was. I learned early
on, probably at the time I had my first bank account, to write on the
back of any cheques "Deposit only" or, better yet "Deposit only to the
account of <name>" which prevents someone else from cashing it if it
were lost or stolen. But I never drew any lines on the front.

--
Cheryl

[John Briggs]

UK Law has changed, and all cheques are regarded as "crossed".
--
John Briggs

[John Briggs]

On 12/04/2013 01:11, Robert Bannister wrote:
> On 12/04/13 6:02 AM, Mike L wrote:
>> On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 03:56:53 -0700 (PDT), Peter Brooks
>> <peter.h....@gmail.com> wrote:

>>
>>> On Apr 11, 12:51 pm, Stan Brown <the_stan_br...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>>>> Among my duties is writing instructions for doing various things in
>>>> software. In AmE we say "check the box next to the word Dynamic",
>>>> meaning to place a check mark in that box.
>>>>
>>>> I believe the BrE verb would be "tick", but would most BrE readers
>>>> understand "check" (verb) to mean "tick" in this context? Or do I
>>>> need to say "Check (tick) the box. ..."?
>>>>
>>>> Is there some verb with similar meaning that is equally well used in
>>>> BrE and AmE?
>>>>

>>> I always have a look to make sure that the box is really there and
>>> properly square when asked to check it.
>>>
>>> If you don't want to say 'tick the box', which means 'put a tick in
>>> it', you could say 'put a cross in the box', or 'fill in the box'.
>>
>> So not knowing about the philosophers' stone is a sign of poor
>> education in children, but reaching middle age without having noticed
>> what "check" means in this context is OK. Ri-i-ight.
>>
>
> The Philosopher's Stone has been on record for centuries. "Check" is not
> only relatively new, the exact meaning has so far not been agreed on. A
> lot depends on whether the results will be read by a human or a machine
> - the latter may be a lot more choosy about which kind of check mark is
> entered.

Philosophers' stone. [I was outraged that the Latin translation has
"Harrius Potter et Pholosophi Lapis" - I would have done "Henricus
Potterius et Lapis Philosophorum".]
--
John Briggs

[John Briggs]

Of course, "pierre philosophale" side-steps the singular/plural problem :-)
--
John Briggs

[John Briggs]

On 12/04/2013 22:56, R H Draney wrote:
> Jerry Friedman filted:
>>

>> On Apr 12, 2:22=A0am, Evan Kirshenbaum <evan.kirshenb...@gmail.com>

>> wrote:
>> ...
>>
>>> I don't think anybody's yet answered my question of whether they had

>>> actually encountered the phrase used as Rowling used it. =A0Knowing that

>>> the philosopher's stone transmutes base metals to gold doesn't do you
>>> any good when it's being used for it's much-less-commonly-asserted

>>> property to extend life. =A0I was familiar with the phrase, but I

>>> certainly hadn't come across that meaning.
>>
>> Okay, I knew it was supposed to do both. I learned it in childhood
>> but not in school--probably from an encyclopedia.
>

> Pretty sure I learned about it from a comic book....r

Did it put the apostrophe in the right place?
--
John Briggs

[John Briggs]

I thought the reasoning was that American children wouldn't know what a
philosopher was.
--
John Briggs

[John Briggs]

On 12/04/2013 04:21, Peter Brooks wrote:
> On Apr 12, 2:07 am, Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:

>> On 11/04/13 6:56 PM, Peter Brooks wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Apr 11, 12:51 pm, Stan Brown <the_stan_br...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>>>> Among my duties is writing instructions for doing various things in
>>>> software. In AmE we say "check the box next to the word Dynamic",
>>>> meaning to place a check mark in that box.
>>
>>>> I believe the BrE verb would be "tick", but would most BrE readers
>>>> understand "check" (verb) to mean "tick" in this context? Or do I
>>>> need to say "Check (tick) the box. ..."?
>>
>>>> Is there some verb with similar meaning that is equally well used in
>>>> BrE and AmE?
>>
>>> I always have a look to make sure that the box is really there and
>>> properly square when asked to check it.
>>
>>> If you don't want to say 'tick the box', which means 'put a tick in
>>> it', you could say 'put a cross in the box', or 'fill in the box'.
>>

>> Some forms, especially those that will be read electronically, are very
>> particular about what you put in the boxes. Should it be a tick, a cross
>> or a diagonal line, and if the latter, should it slope forwards or
>> backwards and how will I know which is which?
>>

>> Clever form designers provide an example of how they want the box
>> marked. "Draw a cross in the box as in this example: [x]" Take up a lot
>> more space than "Tick the box provided", but makes the victim...I mean
>> person being questioned feel more cared for.
>>
> Indeed it does!
>
> Even cleverer form designers work on the principle that people have
> met this sort of thing before, so can simply give an example at the
> top, such as:
>
> Answer the questions below. For example:
>
> 2 + 2 = 4 True [X] False [ ]
>
>
> Usually the expression 'tick the box' applies to a list. If, for
> example, you are going to fly an aeroplane, you tick off the items as
> you check that they're ready. For example:
>
> Enough fuel for journey [ ]

"Enough fuel for journey" "Check" :-)
--
John Briggs

[John Briggs]

On 12/04/2013 05:57, Stan Brown wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 08:07:31 +0800, Robert Bannister wrote:

>> Some forms, especially those that will be read electronically, are very
>> particular about what you put in the boxes. Should it be a tick, a cross
>> or a diagonal line, and if the latter, should it slope forwards or
>> backwards and how will I know which is which?
>>
>

> True, but I'm talking about software, not forms. (I should have
> said; I simply failed to think about the possibility people might
> think I was talking of forms.)
>
> When you select yes/no options in Windows programs, you click your
> mouse into a box to place or remove a check mark there. Standard AmE
> for that, in context, is "check the box" or "uncheck the box". Is
> that understood -- in that context - by BrE speakers also, or is
> there some other verb I could use that would be understood by BrE and
> AmE speakers and would not look too odd to either?

You're probably better off using a [radio] button rather than a check box...
--
John Briggs

[John Briggs]

On 12/04/2013 05:53, Stan Brown wrote:

> On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 03:56:53 -0700 (PDT), Peter Brooks wrote:
>>
>> If you don't want to say 'tick the box', which means 'put a tick in
>> it', you could say 'put a cross in the box', or 'fill in the box'.
>

> "Put a cross in the box" is clearly wrong. The mark isn't a cross
> (or an X, as AmE speakers would say). It's a check mark like 20 of
> the 22 shown here:
>
> https://www.google.com/images?q=check+mark
>
> "Tick the box" is clearly unidiomatic for AmE, and I think a
> substantial minority or even a majority would not understand what I
> meant. I believe that "check the box" is unidiomatic for BrE, but my
> question is whether it's as bad for a Brit as "tick the box" is for a
> Yank.

That rather depends on the view you take of the relative intelligence of
the average AmE and BrE users.
--
John Briggs