Hungarian confusion
Mark Barratt
Reinhold (Rey) Aman wrote:
> Mark Barratt wrote:
>
> > Bob Cunningham wrote:
>
> > > To anyone who is learning Hungarian, it would be well to
> > > warn of a trap I remember from a movie line: The heroine
> > > and her husband were entertaining VIPs of Hungarian
> > > extraction. She wanted to make them feel at home, so she
> > > learned to say "To your health" in Hungarian. When she said
> > > it at the dinner table, it was met by shocked silence, then
> > > by gradual understanding and good humor all around.
> > >
> > > It turned out she had learned to say something like
> > > "eggashegera", which meant something like "Kiss my ass" or
> > > something equally rude. A Hungarian speaker told me years
> > > later she should have learned something more like "Ay gay
> > > shay gera".
> > >
> > > A Hungarian speaker could probably straighten all of this
> > > out nicely. What did she really say, and what should she
> > > really have said?
>
> > I don't remember there ever having been a Hungarian speaker here,
> > Bob, but I'm obviously in a position to find out the answer,
> > anyway. I'll have to send an e-mail to Belgium, though - no
> > shortage of Hungarian speakers to ask here, of course, but I
> > haven't the language to ask them.
> >
> > I can do the easy bit, though: 'egészség' means 'health' and the
> > conventional toast is either 'egészségére' or 'egészségédre' - I
> > think the difference is how many people you're addressing, but I'm
> > not clear on this yet. Since Hungarian is "spelt phonetically",
> > this should make the pronunciation of the last:
> > ['E ge:s Se:g e:d rE] or "eh gace shayg aid reh" if I really must
> > force pure vowels into ugly English diphthongs.
>
> > I have no idea what the rude expression might have been, but I'll
> > find out, if possible.
>
> "Kiss my ass!" = Nyald ki a seggem!
I have now the reply from my Hungarian friend, and I quote:
************************************************************
Not very true. There's no way to say 'nyald ki a seggem' or
anything similar to that which could ever sound like
'egészségedre'. The closest you can get with anything
related to arse (that is 'segg' in Magyar), would/could be
'egész segged' which means 'your whole arse', or maybe
'egyél segget' which means 'eat (an) arse'. But I really
doubt this was the case as these two examples are as hard to
pronounce as the original 'egészségedre'. Thus the speaker
would have difficulties to say any of the offensive
equivalents (related to arse) in a proper way without any
confusion, and honestly, when you hear someone trying to
say anything similar to 'egész' and something 'seg', 'ség'
or 'segg' then you would, in no doubt, immediately associate
it with the most commonly taught word to foreigners,
egészségedre! A person with Hungarian origin must be
utterly stupid not to get it.
That's my opinion and by my experience.
************************************************************
So, no enlightenment there. It looks like you'll need to remember
the name of the movie, Bob.
Incidentally, I notice from my friend's reply that my spelling is
in error - the penultimate 'e' of 'egészségedre' is unaccented, and
is therefore pronounced [E] and not [e:], as I said.
--
Regards,
Mark Barratt
Adrian Bailey
news:MPG.1bba7ec03...@news.individual.net...
************************************************************
************************************************************
----
My (Hungarian) wife and I are in complete agreement with your Hungarian
friend. Of course "egeszsegedre" can sound like a toast to "your whole arse"
but it's a very corny joke, that's all, and no-one would ever be offended by
a foreigner's mispronunciation unless it was clear that the emphasis on
"segg" was intentional. The idea that it's a trap for the unwary is a
language myth.
A much more likely story would be a policeman unamused by someone calling
the police "rendorsegg".
Adrian
Bob Cunningham
I'm sorry I misled you. When I said "'Kiss my ass' or
something equally rude" I meant it might not have anything
to with asses or kisses; it might be something like "Your
mother wears army boots", "Drop dead", or "Go to Hell".
That's what I meant by "equally rude".
Your comments tell me you concentrated on the "Kiss my ass"
meaning, and I'm sorry if you spent a lot of time
concentrating on that meaning, but I certainly thank you for
your effort.
I'm reasonably certain the gaffe was pronounced pretty close
to "EGGaShegera" (['Eg@,SEg@r@]), and I'm fairly sure my
Hungarian acquaintance, who immediately recognized the
problem, said the lady should have said something pretty
close to that, but with different vowels, like [ei] instead
of [E] and maybe [ei] instead of [@] in one place.
I haven't seen the Hungarian friend for about fifty years.
I remember his name, but I don't find it at anywho.com
anywhere in California. Anyway, he was somewhat older than
I was, so he's probably gone to the big keyboard in the sky
by now.
[...]
> So, no enlightenment there. It looks like you'll need to remember
> the name of the movie, Bob.
I thought I had remembered it earlier today. I said to
myself "Aha! It was _Palm Beach Story_ and the lady was
Claudette Colbert." But it turned out that was the answer
to another puzzle, where I had heard the line "But dear, if
we had waited until we could afford it, we wouldn't even
HAVE a piano". I'm glad to get that one out of the way,
anyway.
It's too bad there's no alt.usage.hungarian or any other
newsgroup with the word "hungarian" in the name.
John O'Flaherty
Bob, I noticed a soc.culture.magyar
--
john
Mark Barratt
> I'm sorry I misled you. When I said "'Kiss my ass' or
> something equally rude" I meant it might not have anything
> to with asses or kisses; it might be something like "Your
> mother wears army boots", "Drop dead", or "Go to Hell".
> That's what I meant by "equally rude".
>
> Your comments tell me you concentrated on the "Kiss my ass"
> meaning, and I'm sorry if you spent a lot of time
> concentrating on that meaning, but I certainly thank you for
> your effort.
No, no. I forwarded your entire posting, together with Rey's
contribution, to my friend and I'm pretty sure that he understood.
> I'm reasonably certain the gaffe was pronounced pretty close
> to "EGGaShegera" (['Eg@,SEg@r@]), and I'm fairly sure my
> Hungarian acquaintance, who immediately recognized the
> problem, said the lady should have said something pretty
> close to that, but with different vowels, like [ei] instead
> of [E] and maybe [ei] instead of [@] in one place.
Yes, and it would seem that some variation on "segg" (arse/ass)
might be possible, but neither my friend nor (as I'm sure you can
read for yourself) Adrian Bailey's Hungarian wife can think of
anything which might plausibly be confused in the way that you
describe. Adrian goes so far as to describe this as a "language
myth", which I think is premature.
<snip>
> It's too bad there's no alt.usage.hungarian or any other
> newsgroup with the word "hungarian" in the name.
Ah, but there is. It's called hun.nyelv (nyelv = language), but it
seems not to be highly popular. I posted there the other day, and
that appears to be the first posting since the 11th of the month.
--
Regards,
Mark Barratt
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
[...]
> > Reinhold (Rey) Aman wrote:
[...]
> > > "Kiss my ass!" = Nyald ki a seggem!
[...]
> I'm sorry I misled you. When I said "'Kiss my ass' or
> something equally rude" I meant it might not have anything
> to with asses or kisses; it might be something like "Your
> mother wears army boots", "Drop dead", or "Go to Hell".
> That's what I meant by "equally rude".
[...]
My above contribution was too brief, I guess. All I wanted to show by
citing the Hungarian phrase is that it could not have been the source
for the malapropism.
--
Reinhold (Rey) Aman, Philologist
AUEer Emeritus & Eremitus
Don Phillipson
>
> > > To anyone who is learning Hungarian, it would be well to
> > > warn of a trap I remember from a movie line: The heroine
The eels in the hovercraft warned us of this long ago.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Bob Cunningham
<mark.b...@enternet.hu> said:
> Bob Cunningham wrote:
[...]
> > I'm reasonably certain the gaffe was pronounced pretty close
> > to "EGGaShegera" (['Eg@,SEg@r@]), and I'm fairly sure my
> > Hungarian acquaintance, who immediately recognized the
> > problem, said the lady should have said something pretty
> > close to that, but with different vowels, like [ei] instead
> > of [E] and maybe [ei] instead of [@] in one place.
> Yes, and it would seem that some variation on "segg" (arse/ass)
> might be possible, but neither my friend nor (as I'm sure you can
> read for yourself) Adrian Bailey's Hungarian wife can think of
> anything which might plausibly be confused in the way that you
> describe. Adrian goes so far as to describe this as a "language
> myth", which I think is premature.
I posted an inquiry in another newsgroup, and I've received
a response that seems quite helpful. It pretty much
confirms what I remembered.
From: jmkau...@aol.comatose (JMKAUFFMAN)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.movies.past-films
Date: 22 Sep 2004 14:39:47 GMT
Subject: Re: "Eggashegera" gaffe: Please help.
Message-ID:
<20040922103947...@mb-m07.aol.com>
The message isn't at Google Groups yet; it's too new.
Mark Barratt
OK, but your correspondent here is talking about one of the
possibilities that my informant dismissed - 'egész segged' - 'your
whole arse' (the -re suffix is the sublative case which can be
translated here as 'to'). His reasoning was that the intended
meaning would be obvious. I infer from what he says that whilst
this mispronunciation might raise a smile, it is beyond belief that
it could cause shocked misunderstanding in the way that you
describe.
Of course, we should remember here that we're discussing a movie -
a work of fiction not intended for a Hungarian-speaking audience,
and that we should allow the film makers a little dramatic licence.
Incidentally, the pronunciation difference between 'egészségedre'
and 'egész seggedre' does not rest alone on the difference between
'e' and 'é' but also on the difference between 'g' and 'gg' which
is significant in Hungarian.
--
Regards,
Mark Barratt
Bob Cunningham
<mark.b...@enternet.hu> said:
Suppose we're at a birthday party for a friend's nubile
young daughter. At one point the daughter gets up and
leaves the room to answer a telephone in the hall. As she
goes toward the door someone seems to comment, "That's a
cute little ass". Will everyone immediately realize that he
has really said "That's a cute little lass"? Will anyone be
momentarily shocked?
> Of course, we should remember here that we're discussing a movie -
> a work of fiction not intended for a Hungarian-speaking audience,
> and that we should allow the film makers a little dramatic licence.
And the correspondent who was quoted was a "Hungarian
screenwriter".
Mark Barratt
>
> > Of course, we should remember here that we're discussing a movie -
> > a work of fiction not intended for a Hungarian-speaking audience,
> > and that we should allow the film makers a little dramatic licence.
>
> And the correspondent who was quoted was a "Hungarian
> screenwriter".
You seem determined to hang on to this idea - which you're
perfectly entitled to, of course. For my part, I've come around to
Adrian's point of view - it's a myth.
--
Regards,
Mark Barratt