A letter to Sis - page 1

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Tony Cooper

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Aug 10, 2001, 12:07:05 AM8/10/01
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Dear Sis:

Sorry for not writing more frequently, but I've been spending too much
time on the computer lately. I've been reading a news group called
"alt.usage.english" which ostensibly has to do with word meanings and
word usage. I say "ostensibly" because that is the chartered purpose
of the group, but the real purpose seems to be to discuss food groups,
food definitions, and forms of words meaning food items. If an army
travels on its' stomach, then an army of pedants travels whilst
discussing the past, present and future contents of its' stomach.

There must be over 400 posts to date just on the definition of a
grilled cheese sandwich. This mighty group has focused their
intellect on the humble sandwich and discussed ad infinitum and ad
nauseam the requirements of the shape of the bread, the cut of the
bread, the name of the bread, the quantity of pieces of bread, the
origin of the bread, and the manner of eating the bread. A side
issue - but one passionately debated - was the means of grilling of
the bread and the implements used. They have not yet gone into the
grilled cheese sandwich with a slice of pickle. I anticipate a lively
discussion on pickles.

Sometimes, the group discusses definitions of words. For example,
they might discuss the word "pedant". Now, you and I might just think
the word means someone that's a picky smartass about spelling mistakes
and using "further" when you mean "farther". These guys don't do it
this way, though. They would give you something like this:

Main Entry: Ped-ant
Pronunciation: 'pe-d&nt
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French, from Italian pedante
Date: 1588
1 obsolete : a male schoolteacher
2a : one who makes a show of knowledge
2b : one who is unimaginative or who unduly emphasizes minutiae in the
presentation or use of knowledge
2c : a formalist or precisionist in teaching

I took this from the Merriam-Webster dictionary, but they would
probably use the Oxford English Dictionary definition. In this group,
referencing the O.E.D. is like flashing your Rolex....it shows you
have a serious enough interest to spend the big bucks.

They don't seem to get into the oddity of words, though. Like a
pedant is something you call someone else, but not something you want
to be called. If you correct my usage, you're a pedant. If I correct
your usage, I'm widening your knowledge base.

The second most widely discussed topic (in the time that I've been
reading the group) in this forum for word usage is geographical
anomalies. I only skimmed the threads, but it seems that in certain
parts of some cities that 12th Avenue can cross 12th Street. This is
considered to be of great interest to these people! They have each
provided detailed analysis of their neighborhood's street grids, house
numbering systems, and nearby roadway patterns. I fully expect the
next great thread to be what street to take to get to a favorite
sandwich shop.

A smaller, but interesting, thread has been on something called Rot13.
This, according to the group, is a sophisticated encrypting system
using one letter of the alphabet to represent another letter of the
alphabet. They evidently have computer programs to both encode and
decode the Rot13 system. It's a young group, Sis, and they must have
grown up long after you could get a Capt. Midnight Code-O-Graph ring
for three Ovaltine labels and 25 cents. We waited by the mailbox for
weeks for ours, and they buy theirs on e-Bay.

It's a mannerly group of people that post in alt.usage.english. The
only thing that seems to upset them is something called "PGP". I
don't understand it all that well, but it seems to be a system that
prevents other people from stealing your news group identity. Their
objection seems to be that adding the PGP information increases the
post by 12 to 14 lines. There have been about 150 posts objecting to
this. Since no one in the group seems to be able to snip to the
relevant lines, this means that they have posted about 4,500 lines of
objection to 12 extra lines in a couple of posts. It must be a
principle thing.

There are some conventions that must be observed in this group. As far
as I can tell, it is déclassé to say Americans or Europeans. You
must say "leftpondians" or "rightpondians". This is a group that will
go to the wall on a discussion of pronominal declensions, but insists
on calling the Atlantic Ocean a pond. I've not yet figured out how to
differentiate South America from Africa.

They've a contest running with a number of questions posted daily. By
the time I read the questions, the answers have already appeared.
I'll give you a question, though: Where do you find a pound that
empties and fills but never should contain a dog or a cat?

Affectionately,

--
Tony Cooper aka: Tony_Co...@Yahoo.com
Provider of Jots & Tittles


R H Draney

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Aug 10, 2001, 12:24:25 AM8/10/01
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On Fri, 10 Aug 2001 00:07:05 -0400, "Tony Cooper"
<tony_co...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>There are some conventions that must be observed in this group. As far
>as I can tell, it is déclassé to say Americans or Europeans. You
>must say "leftpondians" or "rightpondians". This is a group that will
>go to the wall on a discussion of pronominal declensions, but insists
>on calling the Atlantic Ocean a pond. I've not yet figured out how to
>differentiate South America from Africa.

South America's got better coffee; Africa's got worse epidemics....

(Just helping out wherever I can)....r
--
"Supposedly, after a city was taken, you'd not only see lots
of rape victims, but also lots of people with bleeding ears."
- Kai Henningsen elicits a truly disturbing mental image

Charles Riggs

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Aug 10, 2001, 1:09:47 AM8/10/01
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On Fri, 10 Aug 2001 00:07:05 -0400, "Tony Cooper"
<tony_co...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Dear Sis:
>
>Sorry for not writing more frequently...

That's OK, bro, but since I am your sister, in the future please don't
follow my name with a colon as if I were a business.

> They have not yet gone into the
>grilled cheese sandwich with a slice of pickle.

I think this was mentioned in passing in at least one of the sandwich
posts, as were tomatoes in grilled cheese sandwiches. For what it's
worth, here's my standard GCS:

Melt some butter in a broiling pan and immerse both sides of two
pieces of whole wheat bread in it. Sprinkle a little Worcestershire
sauce on the inner surfaces of the two slices along with salt.

Place a thick slice of Swiss cheese (cheddar is an alternate) on top
of the lower slice and then cover with a row of longitudinally-sliced
pickles, followed by the top slice of bread.

Broil under heat (grill in GB) for a few minutes on each side until
the cheese is well-melted and the bread is lightly browned.

Charles Riggs

Maria Conlon

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Aug 10, 2001, 1:20:50 AM8/10/01
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Tony Cooper wrote in message

>Dear Sis:
[...]
Great, Tony! (I wish I'd come up with the idea.) But I have a quibble
with one little part, and would like you to inform your sister of this
correction lest she get the wrong impression.

>.....It's a young group, Sis, and they must have


>grown up long after you could get a Capt. Midnight Code-O-Graph ring
>for three Ovaltine labels and 25 cents. We waited by the mailbox for
>weeks for ours, and they buy theirs on e-Bay.

The part I object to is "young group." While this may be blatant
flattery, and while such may be appreciated, I would think that most of
us are not especially "young." It depends on your definition of "young,"
sure, but I would think the average age here (among regular posters[1])
is 45+, with many of us in the "+" category.

Not that we're "old," you understand. We're just more experienced than
the clueless kiddies that populate other groups.

By the way, you forgot sheep, or, more likely, don't know about them
yet. You'll hear more about this subject when the contest comes to a
close, though that's not the only time you might encounter the subject.
Some of our British and Irish posters seem to have a thing about sheep,
while Leftpondians are less likely to have...uh...gotten involved.

[1] The term "regular posters" does not, IMO, include the
crossposter-from-Hell and his followers, nor does it include other
cross-posters who never actually read aue, nor does it include the
random dropper-by.

Thanks for the enjoyable post.
Maria (Tootsie)


Matti Lamprhey

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Aug 10, 2001, 3:55:11 AM8/10/01
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"Tony Cooper" <tony_co...@yahoo.com> wrote...
> [...]

> They've a contest running with a number of questions posted daily. By
> the time I read the questions, the answers have already appeared.
> I'll give you a question, though: Where do you find a pound that
> empties and fills but never should contain a dog or a cat?

On a hydraulic navigation facility.

(Nice post, Tony.)

Matti


Mike Barnes

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Aug 10, 2001, 6:38:40 AM8/10/01
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In alt.usage.english, Tony Cooper <tony_co...@yahoo.com> wrote

>Dear Sis:
>
>Sorry for not writing more frequently, but I've been spending too much
>time on the computer lately. I've been reading a news group called
>"alt.usage.english" which ostensibly has to do with word meanings and
>word usage. I say "ostensibly" because that is the chartered purpose
>of the group, but the real purpose seems to be to discuss food groups,
>food definitions, and forms of words meaning food items. If an army
>travels on its' stomach, then an army of pedants travels whilst
>discussing the past, present and future contents of its' stomach.

:-)

Too much time, but not enough, it seems... "its'", indeed! Harrumph!

I hope you stick around to entertain and inform us. Your sister can
manage without, I'm sure.

--
Mike Barnes

Padraig Breathnach

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Aug 10, 2001, 7:13:49 AM8/10/01
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"Tony Cooper" <tony_co...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>... If an army


>travels on its' stomach, then an army of pedants travels whilst

>discussing the past, present and future contents of its' stomach...
>
You want us to discuss English usage? Shall we start with possessive
pronouns? Nah, let's do sheep. I wouldn't like you to consider me a
pedant.

PB

Rowan Dingle

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Aug 10, 2001, 8:40:09 AM8/10/01
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In alt.usage.english, Maria Conlon <mcon...@sprynet.com> wrote:

[...]

>By the way, you forgot sheep, or, more likely, don't know about them
>yet. You'll hear more about this subject when the contest comes to a
>close, though that's not the only time you might encounter the subject.
>Some of our British and Irish posters seem to have a thing about sheep,
>while Leftpondians are less likely to have...uh...gotten involved.

Sheep, spelling and political correctness:

===from portal.telegraph.co.uk===
SCHOOLS in Wales have been criticised for having too many pictures of
daffodils, sheep, coal mines and aproned ladies in tall black hats on
their walls.

Inspectors from Estyn, the Welsh equivalent of Ofsted [the English
schools inspectorate], said that schoolchildren needed to be presented
with more modern images of the principality such as economic
regeneration and multiculturalism, such as the presence of pupils of
Bengali, Somali and Yemeni origin.
===5th August===

Clumsy, yes, but where's the spelling mistake?

Whilst looking for Estyn's home site (in vain), I came across this proud
boast from a company that 'provides training, consultancy & inspection
services internationally for educationalists at all levels including
Governors, Senior Management Teams, teachers and inspectors':

===from www.wessexeducation.com/inspect.htm===
Wessex [Associates Ltd] also carries out inspections of primary schools
in Wales for ESTYN (Formally OHMCI). To date we have carried out over
100 of these inspections and continue to be active in this area.
===

(Hint: ESTYN used to be known as OHMCI.)

--
Rowan Dingle

Tony Cooper

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Aug 10, 2001, 9:27:02 AM8/10/01
to
Scríobh Padraig Breathnach
]

> You want us to discuss English usage? Shall we start with possessive
> pronouns? Nah, let's do sheep. I wouldn't like you to consider me a
> pedant.
>

Prior to taking up AUE, I spent two years contributing to
soc.culture.irish. (I included a bit of Irish in my greeting above).
That background has contributed greatly to my knowledge of sheep and
the....erm....entertainment value a sheep has to a culchie. I've seen
and written so many sheep jokes and references that I'll baa out of
future posts on this topic.

In soc.culture.irish, food threads are as common as they are here.
They can go twenty posts on a doner kebab any time. Curry, and the
next day effects of curry, are a popular topic and the discussion gets
a bit more detailed than one would expect here. Also popular is the
ever-present argument about the best crisps (Tayto ROI or Tayto UK)
and - as you would expect - beer and stout posts.

We even have a Breathnach there, and he is a mighty poster indeed. A
writer noted for his original and humorous posts, but a man sadly
defeated by the inevitable defeats of the boys from Roscommon.

As to my possessive pronouns...I take it that I was incorrect in using
"its'". I was under the impression that if what follows "its" belongs
to "it", then the apostrophe is in order. What *is* the rule?

Rainer Thonnes

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Aug 10, 2001, 9:25:26 AM8/10/01
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In article <9kvqol$uk3$1...@slb0.atl.mindspring.net>,

"Maria Conlon" <mcon...@sprynet.com> writes:
>
>The part I object to is "young group." While this may be blatant
>flattery, and while such may be appreciated, I would think that most of
>us are not especially "young." It depends on your definition of "young,"
>sure, but I would think the average age here (among regular posters[1])
>is 45+, with many of us in the "+" category.

Hold on, toots, he said the *group* was young, not its members.
Didn't someone fairly recently send us a birthday card? "Happy
birthday, AUE!", or words to that effect. I forget when it was
supposed to have been born, though.

Anyway, who says 46 is old?

Tony Cooper

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Aug 10, 2001, 9:32:30 AM8/10/01
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Maria wrote:

> Not that we're "old," you understand. We're just more experienced
than
> the clueless kiddies that populate other groups.

If you didn't listen to the radio serials, send off for the decoder
rings, and get dressed on Saturday morning to "Let's Pretend".....then
you are ":young".


>
> By the way, you forgot sheep, or, more likely, don't know about them
> yet.

See my reply to Breathnach. They say the tricky part is getting their
hind legs in the wellies.

Tony Cooper

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Aug 10, 2001, 9:43:36 AM8/10/01
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Matti wrote:

> > I'll give you a question, though: Where do you find a pound that
> > empties and fills but never should contain a dog or a cat?
>
> On a hydraulic navigation facility.

If I had a prize, I'd award it. The area in a lock is called a pound.
If you are ever in Brownsville (Brooklyn, not Texas) and need
directions to the Van Wyck without crossing an even numbered street, I
know people that know.

Robert Lipton

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Aug 10, 2001, 10:13:00 AM8/10/01
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People 45 and younger.

Bob

Richard Fontana

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Aug 10, 2001, 10:35:42 AM8/10/01
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On Fri, 10 Aug 2001, Tony Cooper wrote:

> As to my possessive pronouns...I take it that I was incorrect in using
> "its'". I was under the impression that if what follows "its" belongs
> to "it", then the apostrophe is in order. What *is* the rule?

Geez, Tony! Geez!

There is no apostrophe. An apostrophe is used in the contraction "it's" =
"it is/it has" only. For the it-possessive, use, "its", no apostrophe.

Geez, Tony! Geez!

Geez!

Robert E. Lewis

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Aug 10, 2001, 10:39:34 AM8/10/01
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Tony Cooper <tony_co...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:9kvmfi$lc8$1...@slb7.atl.mindspring.net...

> Dear Sis:
>
> Sorry for not writing more frequently, but I've been spending too much
> time on the computer lately. I've been reading a news group called
> "alt.usage.english" which ostensibly has to do with word meanings and
> word usage. I say "ostensibly" because that is the chartered purpose
> of the group, but the real purpose seems to be to discuss food groups,
> food definitions, and forms of words meaning food items. If an army
> travels on its' stomach, then an army of pedants travels whilst
> discussing the past, present and future contents of its' stomach.
>
> There must be over 400 posts to date just on the definition of a
> grilled cheese sandwich. This mighty group has focused their
> intellect on the humble sandwich and discussed ad infinitum and ad
> nauseam the requirements of the shape of the bread, the cut of the
> bread, the name of the bread, the quantity of pieces of bread, the
> origin of the bread, and the manner of eating the bread. A side
> issue - but one passionately debated - was the means of grilling of
> the bread and the implements used. They have not yet gone into the
> grilled cheese sandwich with a slice of pickle. I anticipate a lively
> discussion on pickles.


How did it come to pass that when we say "pickle," we by default mean a
pickled gherkin, and not pickled beets, pickled watermelon, pickled pigs'
feet, etc.?

It's similar to "french fries," meaning french-fried potatoes (at least
Leftpondian), and not french-fried onions, french-fried chicken, and so on.

--
Robert

Aaron J Dinkin

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Aug 10, 2001, 10:54:18 AM8/10/01
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Robert E. Lewis <rle...@brazosport.cc.tx.us> wrote:

> How did it come to pass that when we say "pickle," we by default mean a
> pickled gherkin, and not pickled beets, pickled watermelon, pickled pigs'
> feet, etc.?

We do? I thought we meant a pickled pickling cucumber. A gherkin is less
than one sixth the size of a typical pickling cuke, isn't it?

I call a pickled gherkin a gherkin.

-Aaron J. Dinkin
Dr. Whom

Tony Cooper

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Aug 10, 2001, 11:07:00 AM8/10/01
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Richard Fontana wrote:

I looked up, and there is clearly no apostrophe after "its". I've
been doing it wrong all these years. I guess I made the jump from
"Charles' stomach" to "its'".

But, hey, I'm just a simple provider of jots and tittles.

Tony Cooper

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Aug 10, 2001, 11:12:55 AM8/10/01
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Robert E. Lewis wrote:

> How did it come to pass that when we say "pickle," we by default
mean a
> pickled gherkin,

Dunno about you, but a pickle to me is a pickled cucumber. A gherkin
is an immature cucumber and only one type of pickle.

A slight aside....one of the most annoying radio commercials is that
guy from "Star..." whatever it is TV show that does the Priceline ads
where he says something like "I knew it. I knew this would be big."

And back to topic....I knew it. I knew pickles would be big.

Richard Fontana

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Aug 10, 2001, 12:05:13 PM8/10/01
to

"Gherkins", pickled, so-called, are certainly marketed as a subcategory of
pickles (= pickled cucumbers).

Mike Lyle

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Aug 10, 2001, 12:24:18 PM8/10/01
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On Fri, 10 Aug 2001 12:05:13 -0400, in
<Pine.GSO.4.21.01081...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu>, Richard Fontana
wrote:

>
>On 10 Aug 2001, Aaron J Dinkin wrote:
>
>> Robert E. Lewis <rle...@brazosport.cc.tx.us> wrote:
>>
>> > How did it come to pass that when we say "pickle," we by default mean a
>> > pickled gherkin, and not pickled beets, pickled watermelon, pickled pigs'
>> > feet, etc.?
>>
>> We do? I thought we meant a pickled pickling cucumber. A gherkin is less
>> than one sixth the size of a typical pickling cuke, isn't it?
>>
>> I call a pickled gherkin a gherkin.
>
[..]Except, I imagine, when it's a cornichon.

Mike.


Aaron J Dinkin

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Aug 10, 2001, 12:40:15 PM8/10/01
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Richard Fontana <rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> wrote:

Yes. But if I wanted to say a word that meant, by default 'pickled
gherkin', I would say "gherkin", not "pickle". "Pickle" does mean 'picked
cucumber' by default.

And "gherkin", to me, means 'pickled gherkin' by default. I don't think
I've ever met the non-pickled kind.

Padraig Breathnach

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Aug 10, 2001, 11:53:05 AM8/10/01
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"Tony Cooper" <tony_co...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Scríobh Padraig Breathnach
>]
>> You want us to discuss English usage? Shall we start with possessive
>> pronouns? Nah, let's do sheep. I wouldn't like you to consider me a
>> pedant.
>>
>
>Prior to taking up AUE, I spent two years contributing to
>soc.culture.irish. (I included a bit of Irish in my greeting above).
>

I give you credit for stamina. Six weeks was long enough for me in
SCI.

>That background has contributed greatly to my knowledge of sheep and
>the....erm....entertainment value a sheep has to a culchie. I've seen
>and written so many sheep jokes and references that I'll baa out of
>future posts on this topic.
>

Don't. You can even recycle stuff from SCI, because most people here
don't participate there. Mind you, I have spotted a post recycled from
SCI in this group (Rush, are you reading this?).

>In soc.culture.irish, food threads are as common as they are here.
>They can go twenty posts on a doner kebab any time. Curry, and the
>next day effects of curry, are a popular topic and the discussion gets
>a bit more detailed than one would expect here.
>

The best of Irish cuisine. The recipes here are better.

>Also popular is the
>ever-present argument about the best crisps (Tayto ROI or Tayto UK)
>and - as you would expect - beer and stout posts.
>

For our leftpondian friends: chips.

>We even have a Breathnach there, and he is a mighty poster indeed. A
>writer noted for his original and humorous posts, but a man sadly
>defeated by the inevitable defeats of the boys from Roscommon.
>
>As to my possessive pronouns...I take it that I was incorrect in using
>"its'". I was under the impression that if what follows "its" belongs
>to "it", then the apostrophe is in order. What *is* the rule?
>

"It's" as a contraction for "It is" is correct.

"Its" denoting possession never has an apostrophe. Think of "his"; you
would (I suppose) never think of using an apostrophe with it.

Now, about the sheep ...

PB

Padraig Breathnach

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Aug 10, 2001, 11:57:48 AM8/10/01
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"Robert E. Lewis" <rle...@brazosport.cc.tx.us> wrote:

>How did it come to pass that when we say "pickle," we by default mean a
>pickled gherkin, and not pickled beets, pickled watermelon, pickled pigs'
>feet, etc.?
>

Who's this "we"? For me, pickle is an assortment of chopped or diced
vegetables in a brown vinegar sauce.

PB

Evan Kirshenbaum

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Aug 10, 2001, 1:05:34 PM8/10/01
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r...@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Rainer Thonnes) writes:

> Hold on, toots, he said the *group* was young, not its members.
> Didn't someone fairly recently send us a birthday card? "Happy
> birthday, AUE!", or words to that effect. I forget when it was
> supposed to have been born, though.

May 10, 1991. Making it nearly a bit over four years older than
Tony's prior haunt, soc.culture.irish (vote result posted May 13,
1995).


--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |The mystery of government is not how
1501 Page Mill Road, Building 1U |Washington works, but how to make it
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |stop.
| P.J. O'Rourke
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/


Richard Fontana

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Aug 10, 2001, 1:26:37 PM8/10/01
to

That would be a kind of US "relish", possibly a kind of piccalilli.
I think.

felix

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Aug 10, 2001, 1:28:23 PM8/10/01
to
"Robert E. Lewis" <rle...@brazosport.cc.tx.us> wrote in message news:<9l0rnj$g...@netaxs.com>...


> How did it come to pass that when we say "pickle," we by default mean a
> pickled gherkin, and not pickled beets, pickled watermelon, pickled pigs'
> feet, etc.?
>
> It's similar to "french fries," meaning french-fried potatoes (at least
> Leftpondian), and not french-fried onions, french-fried chicken, and so on.

Do the french fry onions, chickens and so on? I'm off to France next
week - I'll ask around, and should I return in one piece, will let you
know.


felix

Mike Barnes

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Aug 10, 2001, 10:57:51 AM8/10/01
to
In alt.usage.english, Tony Cooper <tony_co...@yahoo.com> wrote
>As to my possessive pronouns...I take it that I was incorrect in using
>"its'". I was under the impression that if what follows "its" belongs
>to "it", then the apostrophe is in order. What *is* the rule?

The answer is to be found in another newsgroup (and yes, it really does
exist), called "alt.possessive.its.has.no.apostrophe". You don't even
need to subscribe. :-)

--
Mike Barnes

Padraig Breathnach

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Aug 10, 2001, 2:21:56 PM8/10/01
to
Richard Fontana <rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> wrote:

My idea of US-type relish is of something containing a lot of tomato
and chilli. Is that too restrictive a view?

The pickle I have in mind is often used to add zing to unexciting
food. I use it a lot with uninteresting cheeses, and sometimes with
ham. In sandwiches.

PB

Richard Fontana

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Aug 10, 2001, 3:20:17 PM8/10/01
to
On Fri, 10 Aug 2001, Padraig Breathnach wrote:

> Richard Fontana <rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> wrote:
>
> >On Fri, 10 Aug 2001, Padraig Breathnach wrote:
> >
> >> "Robert E. Lewis" <rle...@brazosport.cc.tx.us> wrote:
> >>
> >> >How did it come to pass that when we say "pickle," we by default mean a
> >> >pickled gherkin, and not pickled beets, pickled watermelon, pickled pigs'
> >> >feet, etc.?
> >> >
> >> Who's this "we"? For me, pickle is an assortment of chopped or diced
> >> vegetables in a brown vinegar sauce.
> >
> >That would be a kind of US "relish", possibly a kind of piccalilli.
> >I think.
>
> My idea of US-type relish is of something containing a lot of tomato
> and chilli. Is that too restrictive a view?

I think it's an incorrect view. The most conventional sort of unqualified
US "relish" is sweet pickle relish; nothing particularly tomatoey or chili
in it. It's particularly used as a traditional condiment for hotdogs and
hamburgers. There are, however, other, more special purpose, kinds of
relishes; corn relish comes to mind.


Harvey V

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Aug 10, 2001, 4:59:40 PM8/10/01
to
On 10 Aug 2001, I take it that "Tony Cooper"
<tony_co...@yahoo.com> said:

[snip of a lovely post...]

> I'll give you a question, though: Where do you find a
> pound that empties and fills but never should contain a dog or a
> cat?

It's certainly used in fishing.

(And in case that's not the answer you were thinking of, I'm *still*
correct! Ha!)

Cheers,
Harvey

>
> Affectionately,

Harvey V

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Aug 10, 2001, 5:01:07 PM8/10/01
to

Joe Fineman

unread,
Aug 10, 2001, 5:46:08 PM8/10/01
to
Oddly enough, pickled people are not called pickles, and neither are
people in a pickle (a distinct tho not disjoint set).
--
--- Joe Fineman j...@TheWorld.com

||: Anger is ice for the toothache of shame. :||

Joe Fineman

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Aug 10, 2001, 5:48:49 PM8/10/01
to
Richard Fontana <rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> writes:

> US "relish" is sweet pickle relish; nothing particularly tomatoey or
> chili in it.

How could you pass up the opportunity to write "chiliey"?


--
--- Joe Fineman j...@TheWorld.com

||: The prince of virtues is courage, and the crown of courage :||
||: is contempt for public opinion. :||

Padraig Breathnach

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Aug 10, 2001, 5:16:15 PM8/10/01
to
Richard Fontana <rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> wrote:

I did a domestic google -- looked at the label of the jar of "American
style" relish in the larder. It has a long list of ingredients, headed
by tomato (in Ireland, ingredients must be listed in order of
quantity). Oddly, no mention of chilli, although the stuff tastes
strongly of it. It's possibly subsumed under the more general
"flavourings". It claims to contain gherkins as well, but they are not
easily detected. It's not sweet, but is a little on the hot side.

Some varieties of the pickles I mentioned earlier are indeed sweet.

PB

Tony Cooper

unread,
Aug 10, 2001, 6:15:04 PM8/10/01
to
Padraig wrote:

> Who's this "we"? For me, pickle is an assortment of chopped or diced
> vegetables in a brown vinegar sauce.

That's Branson Pickle, isn't it? We've some in the pantry. It's
served in the UK with a ploughman's lunch. There are some shops here
where we can buy specialty foods like this. Just a few weeks ago my
wife picked up some Bird's trifle mix for a treat. It always tastes
better over there.

Don Aitken

unread,
Aug 10, 2001, 8:00:39 PM8/10/01
to
On Fri, 10 Aug 2001 09:43:36 -0400, "Tony Cooper"
<tony_co...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Matti wrote:
>
>> > I'll give you a question, though: Where do you find a pound that
>> > empties and fills but never should contain a dog or a cat?
>>
>> On a hydraulic navigation facility.
>
>If I had a prize, I'd award it. The area in a lock is called a pound.

Actually, a pound is the stretch of water *between* two locks.

>If you are ever in Brownsville (Brooklyn, not Texas) and need
>directions to the Van Wyck without crossing an even numbered street, I
>know people that know.

--
Don Aitken

Tony Cooper

unread,
Aug 10, 2001, 8:21:12 PM8/10/01
to
Richard Fontana wrote:

> > My idea of US-type relish is of something containing a lot of
tomato
> > and chilli. Is that too restrictive a view?
>
> I think it's an incorrect view. The most conventional sort of
unqualified
> US "relish" is sweet pickle relish; nothing particularly tomatoey or
chili
> in it. It's particularly used as a traditional condiment for
hotdogs and
> hamburgers. There are, however, other, more special purpose, kinds
of
> relishes; corn relish comes to mind.
>

I think he's thinking of Chili Sauce. We use it instead of ketchup.
It's thicker, contains bits of veggies, and a tomato sauce.

Robert E. Lewis

unread,
Aug 10, 2001, 8:23:33 PM8/10/01
to

Padraig Breathnach <padr...@iol.ie> wrote in message
news:vd98nt0g940flu1tk...@4ax.com...

> Richard Fontana <rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> wrote:
>
> >On Fri, 10 Aug 2001, Padraig Breathnach wrote:
> >
> >> "Robert E. Lewis" <rle...@brazosport.cc.tx.us> wrote:
> >>
> >> >How did it come to pass that when we say "pickle," we by default mean
a
> >> >pickled gherkin, and not pickled beets, pickled watermelon, pickled
pigs'
> >> >feet, etc.?
> >> >
> >> Who's this "we"? For me, pickle is an assortment of chopped or diced
> >> vegetables in a brown vinegar sauce.
> >
> >That would be a kind of US "relish", possibly a kind of piccalilli.
> >I think.
>
> My idea of US-type relish is of something containing a lot of tomato
> and chilli. Is that too restrictive a view?

I wouldn;t call that relish; I'd call it salsa.

Padraig Breathnach

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Aug 10, 2001, 8:14:31 PM8/10/01
to
"Tony Cooper" <tony_co...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Padraig wrote:
>
>> Who's this "we"? For me, pickle is an assortment of chopped or diced
>> vegetables in a brown vinegar sauce.
>
>That's Branson Pickle, isn't it? We've some in the pantry. It's
>served in the UK with a ploughman's lunch.
>

Branston is one popular type. There are also Sweet Pickle and Military
Pickle.

>There are some shops here
>where we can buy specialty foods like this.
>

There are lots of shops here where we can buy them.

>Just a few weeks ago my
>wife picked up some Bird's trifle mix for a treat. It always tastes
>better over there.
>

I don't think so.

PB

Robert E. Lewis

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Aug 10, 2001, 8:38:20 PM8/10/01
to

felix <fel...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:430d1c32.01081...@posting.google.com...

Wouldn't you have preferred I asked about french-kissing? (The research
would be so much more fun, and you could solicit kisses for scientific
reasons from Parisian waiters.)

My semi-ancient Better Homes & Gardens "New" cookbook (1953, 1962) features
french-fried potatoes, chicken, onion-rings and shrimp. All are deep-fried;
surely the French deep-fry something, but what they call it, and how
deep-frying came also to be called french-frying, if it's not common there,
would be of interest to me.

Interesting coincidence: I have the television on, Diana Krall (sp?) singing
jazz some studio show. I wasn't particularly paying attention, but as I
walked past on my way to fetch a cookbook, she was singing something
food-related, and said what sounded like, "French-me-fried,"

--
Robert

Richard Fontana

unread,
Aug 10, 2001, 9:00:36 PM8/10/01
to
On Fri, 10 Aug 2001, Tony Cooper wrote:

> Richard Fontana wrote:
>
> > > My idea of US-type relish is of something containing a lot of
> tomato
> > > and chilli. Is that too restrictive a view?
> >
> > I think it's an incorrect view. The most conventional sort of
> unqualified
> > US "relish" is sweet pickle relish; nothing particularly tomatoey or
> chili
> > in it. It's particularly used as a traditional condiment for
> hotdogs and
> > hamburgers. There are, however, other, more special purpose, kinds
> of
> > relishes; corn relish comes to mind.
> >
> I think he's thinking of Chili Sauce. We use it instead of ketchup.
> It's thicker, contains bits of veggies, and a tomato sauce.

I think Heinz has a Chili Sauce that is packaged very much like their
traditional ketchup (not the green stuff) is. I've tried it; it seemed
like a slightly spicier version of ketchup. No bits of veggies in that
one, though. A bit closer to traditional 1970s-style barbecue sauce.

Tony Cooper

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Aug 10, 2001, 9:10:45 PM8/10/01
to
Don Aitken wrote:

> Actually, a pound is the stretch of water *between* two locks.

How do you stretch water?

Skitt

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Aug 10, 2001, 9:28:18 PM8/10/01
to

"Tony Cooper" <tony_co...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:9l20gp$qsd$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net...

> Don Aitken wrote:
>
> > Actually, a pound is the stretch of water *between* two locks.
>
> How do you stretch water?

Aha, ready to learn? Go to:
http://wwwlwhs.lkwash.wednet.edu/edu/science/IES/WaterWeb/P1-Cohesion-bf.vs/
bf4692-coh.HTML
for the finer points in the art of water stretching.
--
Skitt (in SF Bay Area) http://www.geocities.com/opus731/
I speak English well -- I learn it from a book!
-- Manuel of "Fawlty Towers" (he's from Barcelona).


Skitt

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Aug 10, 2001, 9:56:02 PM8/10/01
to

I, "Skitt" <sk...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:9l21ln$7dnor$1...@ID-61580.news.dfncis.de...

>
> "Tony Cooper" <tony_co...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:9l20gp$qsd$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net...
> >
> > How do you stretch water?
>
> Aha, ready to learn? Go to:
>
http://wwwlwhs.lkwash.wednet.edu/edu/science/IES/WaterWeb/P1-Cohesion-bf.vs/
> bf4692-coh.HTML
> for the finer points in the art of water stretching.

The poor slobs doing the experiment had no concept of what a centimeter is,
though.

Frances Kemmish

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Aug 11, 2001, 1:05:20 AM8/11/01
to
Skitt wrote:
>
> "Tony Cooper" <tony_co...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:9l20gp$qsd$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net...
> > Don Aitken wrote:
> >
> > > Actually, a pound is the stretch of water *between* two locks.
> >
> > How do you stretch water?
>
> Aha, ready to learn? Go to:
> http://wwwlwhs.lkwash.wednet.edu/edu/science/IES/WaterWeb/P1-Cohesion-bf.vs/
> bf4692-coh.HTML
> for the finer points in the art of water stretching.
>

On a related subject: the other day while grocery shopping, I stopped
to examine the label on a bottle of Powerade (I think that's what it
was called). The contents of the bottle were a toxic shade of blue,
and I wondered what combination of chemicals had been used to achieve
it.

I didn't get as far as the ingredients list, though, because I was
distracted by seeing that it was intended for "liquid hydration".
Perhaps I am missing something obvious, but isn't hydration usually
liquid?

Fran

Laura F Spira

unread,
Aug 11, 2001, 4:14:06 AM8/11/01
to
Tony Cooper wrote:
>
> Padraig wrote:
>
> > Who's this "we"? For me, pickle is an assortment of chopped or diced
> > vegetables in a brown vinegar sauce.
>
> That's Branson Pickle, isn't it? We've some in the pantry. It's
> served in the UK with a ploughman's lunch. There are some shops here
> where we can buy specialty foods like this. Just a few weeks ago my
> wife picked up some Bird's trifle mix for a treat. It always tastes
> better over there.
>
>

When my cousin's wife first arrived in California from the UK she asked
at the local supermarket if they sold Bird's Custard. 'Didn't know birds
ate custard, ma'am,' came the polite reply from the manager.

--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)

Fabian

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Aug 11, 2001, 9:19:07 AM8/11/01
to

"Laura F Spira" <la...@DRAGONspira.u-net.com> wrote in message
news:3B74E94E...@DRAGONspira.u-net.com...

Rreminds me of teh time I was asked if I likd the band smashing
pumpkins. Never having heard of them before, the conversation went liek
this...

Do you like smashing pumpkins?

Umm, well, someone has to smash them i suppose


--
--
Fabian
ghajn f'wicc kahal ra ghajn f'wicc hamar
dak l-ghajn jisbah dan l-ghajn
qal l-ghajn l-ewwel
imma baxx, mhux gholi


Barbara Briggs

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Aug 11, 2001, 11:34:21 AM8/11/01
to

"snip

> Interesting coincidence: I have the television on, Diana Krall (sp?)
singing
> jazz some studio show. I wasn't particularly paying attention, but as I
> walked past on my way to fetch a cookbook, she was singing something
> food-related, and said what sounded like, "French-me-fried,"


I love this song and the way the words are used

"Peel Me a Grape"
Peel me a grape, crush me some ice
Skin me a peach,save the fuzz for my pillow
Poach me a prawn, talk to me nice
You gotta wine me and dine me

Don't try to fool me, bejewel me
Either amuse me or lose me
I'm getting hungry, peel me a grape

Pop me a cork , french me a fry
Crack me a nut, bring a bowl fulla bon-bons
Chill me some wine, keep standing by
Just entertain me, champagne me
Show me you love me, kid glove me
Best way to cheer me, cashmere me
I'm getting hungry, peel me a grape

Here's how to be an agreeable chap
Love me and leave me in luxury's lap
Hop when I holler, skip when I snap
When I say, "do it" jump to it

Send out for scotch, call me a cab
Cut me a rose, make my tea with the petals
Just hang around, pick up the tab
Never out think me, just mink me
Polar bear rug me, don't bug me
New Thunderbird me, you heard me
I'm getting hungry, peel me a grape.


There is also a verse on the recording in the same song where she
asks/demands
Bijou me. I felt old as the rest of the group when I needed to explain
to my daughter that the Bijou was a line of theatres and that she was asking
to go to the movies.

Barbara


French me a fry


Skitt

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Aug 11, 2001, 1:30:56 PM8/11/01
to

"Fabian" <mu...@chung.ii> wrote in message
news:gyad7.12525$LN3.2...@monolith.news.easynet.net...
>

> Rreminds me of teh time I was asked if I likd the band smashing
> pumpkins. Never having heard of them before, the conversation went liek
> this...
>
> Do you like smashing pumpkins?
>
> Umm, well, someone has to smash them i suppose

Gallagher!

Robert E. Lewis

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Aug 11, 2001, 2:58:32 PM8/11/01
to

Barbara Briggs <bbr...@shasta.com> wrote in message
news:tnajr46...@corp.supernews.com...

Tanx.. er, I mean, thanks.

--
Robert

Aaron J Dinkin

unread,
Aug 11, 2001, 3:01:57 PM8/11/01
to
Fabian <mu...@chung.ii> wrote:

> Rreminds me of teh time I was asked if I likd the band smashing
> pumpkins. Never having heard of them before, the conversation went liek
> this...
>
> Do you like smashing pumpkins?
>
> Umm, well, someone has to smash them i suppose

An introduction:

"Billy Corgan, Smashing Pumpkins."
"Homer Simpson, smiling politely."


-Aaron J. Dinkin
Dr. Whom

laroche annie

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Aug 10, 2001, 6:01:38 PM8/10/01
to

I have been to England where I lived during eight months for
to learn English.
Good experience !
I worked in a hotel as waitress.
I would like to have a chat with a English person for
to practice this language.

Have fun

Kind regards.


My email is : laroch...@wanadoo.fr

John Seeliger

unread,
Aug 12, 2001, 2:23:26 AM8/12/01
to
Frances Kemmish <fkem...@optonline.net> wrote in article
<3B74BD10...@optonline.net>...

> Skitt wrote:
> >
> > "Tony Cooper" <tony_co...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:9l20gp$qsd$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net...
> > > Don Aitken wrote:
> > >
> > > > Actually, a pound is the stretch of water *between* two locks.
> > >
> > > How do you stretch water?
> >
> > Aha, ready to learn? Go to:
> >
http://wwwlwhs.lkwash.wednet.edu/edu/science/IES/WaterWeb/P1-Cohesion-bf.vs/

> > bf4692-coh.HTML
> > for the finer points in the art of water stretching.
> >
>
> On a related subject: the other day while grocery shopping, I stopped
> to examine the label on a bottle of Powerade (I think that's what it
> was called). The contents of the bottle were a toxic shade of blue,
> and I wondered what combination of chemicals had been used to achieve
> it.

Probably just one. Blue 1, or whatever it's called. Red 40 is another
popular one. Yellow 5 too. I had a cow-orker who was allergic to yellow-5
and to N-SAIDS (aspirin, ibuprofen, etc.) which are apparently similar and
would give her migraines. Bad when a headache medication gives you
headaches and migraines at that. She would give us her yellow and green
candy (eq. Jolly Rancher, Sweet Tarts; both of which colors had yellow 5).
She had to take acetaminophen


.
>
> I didn't get as far as the ingredients list, though, because I was
> distracted by seeing that it was intended for "liquid hydration".
> Perhaps I am missing something obvious, but isn't hydration usually
> liquid?

Perhaps this is solid water hydration.

Gene Wirchenko

unread,
Aug 12, 2001, 2:55:20 AM8/12/01
to
r...@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Rainer Thonnes) wrote:

>In article <9kvqol$uk3$1...@slb0.atl.mindspring.net>,
> "Maria Conlon" <mcon...@sprynet.com> writes:
>>
>>The part I object to is "young group." While this may be blatant
>>flattery, and while such may be appreciated, I would think that most of
>>us are not especially "young." It depends on your definition of "young,"
>>sure, but I would think the average age here (among regular posters[1])
>>is 45+, with many of us in the "+" category.
>
>Hold on, toots, he said the *group* was young, not its members.

Oddly, in my idiolect, it would mean that the members are young.
I can see the ambiguity now that you've pointed it out.

In order to say that the group itself is young, in my idiolect,
the group is "new".

Hmm, in my idiolect, "old group" would be used for both the group
itself and its members.

I live in British Columbia, Canada.

Don't look at me like that! I didn't design the English
language.

>Didn't someone fairly recently send us a birthday card? "Happy
>birthday, AUE!", or words to that effect. I forget when it was
>supposed to have been born, though.
>
>Anyway, who says 46 is old?

I'm 40. I'll keep quiet if you don't say things like
"whippersnapper".

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation:
I have preferences.
You have biases.
He/She has prejudices.

Gene Wirchenko

unread,
Aug 12, 2001, 2:55:21 AM8/12/01
to
"Fabian" <mu...@chung.ii> wrote:

[snip]

>Rreminds me of teh time I was asked if I likd the band smashing
>pumpkins. Never having heard of them before, the conversation went liek
>this...
>
>Do you like smashing pumpkins?
>
>Umm, well, someone has to smash them i suppose

Alternatively, I suppose it could be:

Of course! If a pumpkin is good enough to be thought smashing, I
expect I'd like it.

Rainer Thonnes

unread,
Aug 13, 2001, 7:07:01 AM8/13/01
to
In article <3b761c02...@news.shuswap.net>,
ge...@shuswap.net (Gene Wirchenko) writes:

>r...@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Rainer Thonnes) wrote:
>> "Maria Conlon" <mcon...@sprynet.com> writes:
>>>
>>>The part I object to is "young group." While this may be blatant
>>>flattery, and while such may be appreciated, I would think that most of
>>>us are not especially "young." It depends on your definition of "young,"
>>>sure, but I would think the average age here (among regular posters[1])
>>>is 45+, with many of us in the "+" category.
>>
>>Hold on, toots, he said the *group* was young, not its members.
>
> Oddly, in my idiolect, it would mean that the members are young.
>I can see the ambiguity now that you've pointed it out.
>
> In order to say that the group itself is young, in my idiolect,
>the group is "new".

I wouldn't call a group new unless it were *very* young, e.g. it had been
formed more recently than, say, a year ago. How would you refer to a
group that was not old enough for "old" but too old for "new"?

I can see the problem, though. "Young" does tend to mean "youthful" and
as such it wants to go with not just any old noun, but one describing an
animate object. Only someone with a mind at least as warped as mine dares
apply it to abstract things as well.

Stephen Toogood

unread,
Aug 13, 2001, 6:50:33 AM8/13/01
to
In article <rhj8nt4b954csb1vr...@4ax.com>, Padraig
Breathnach <padr...@iol.ie> writes
I have always thought that the distinction between pickle and relish was
one of thickness or solids content.

Tomato ketchup and Worcester Sauce are examples of relishes, though
admittedly a bit on the thin side even for relish. But you couldn't call
Branston Pickle, or indeed Hayward's Military Pickle (is that still
around?) a relish - too many lumps.

Then we have to put 'chutney' into the frame.
--
Stephen Toogood

Mike Page

unread,
Aug 19, 2001, 5:09:45 PM8/19/01
to
On Mon, 13 Aug 2001 11:50:33 +0100, Stephen Toogood
<ste...@stenches.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>I have always thought that the distinction between pickle and relish was
>one of thickness or solids content.
>
>Tomato ketchup and Worcester Sauce are examples of relishes, though
>admittedly a bit on the thin side even for relish. But you couldn't call
>Branston Pickle, or indeed Hayward's Military Pickle (is that still
>around?) a relish - too many lumps.
>
>Then we have to put 'chutney' into the frame.

I was wondering when someone was going to bring that up. I don't
agree with your distinction between relishes and pickles. Relish
seems to cover the whole gamut of spicy, sweet or piquant things
to be served with food Ketchup and Lea and Perrins are clearly
also sauces. I'd classify Branston Pickle as a chutney[1] along
with any other example of lumpy vegetarian concoctions in a
thickened vinegar-based medium. A pickle seems to me to be
relatively unmucked-about food like onions, walnuts, small
cucumbers or eggs preserved in vinegar or brine. Note that the
brine used in making gravadlax or salt beef is also pickle.

[1] Notwithstanding the Indian origins of the word for a spicy
fresh relish.
Mike Page, BF(UU)
Let the ape escape for e-mail

Richard Fontana

unread,
Aug 19, 2001, 6:02:47 PM8/19/01
to
On Sun, 19 Aug 2001, Mike Page wrote:

> Relish seems to cover the whole gamut of spicy, sweet or piquant things
> to be served with food Ketchup and Lea and Perrins are clearly
> also sauces.

I will assert here that neither conventional tomato ketchup nor
Worcestershire sauce are "sauces" in the American English sense.

Ketchup is definitely a condiment. Perhaps Worcestershire sauce should
also be so described.

I think a "sauce" has to be something that is designed to be a defining
component of the dishes it is employed in. It cannot be used sparingly as
a flavo(u)r enhancer.


Padraig Breathnach

unread,
Aug 19, 2001, 7:23:18 PM8/19/01
to
Richard Fontana <rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> wrote:

>I will assert here that neither conventional tomato ketchup nor
>Worcestershire sauce are "sauces" in the American English sense.
>
>Ketchup is definitely a condiment. Perhaps Worcestershire sauce should
>also be so described.
>
>I think a "sauce" has to be something that is designed to be a defining
>component of the dishes it is employed in. It cannot be used sparingly as
>a flavo(u)r enhancer.
>

The hoi polloi in rightpondia and Mike Page take a more liberal view:
any liquid or viscuous substance added to food, whether as defining
component or as flavour enhancer is likely to be called a sauce. And
it is not always used sparingly. Sometimes liberal doses are
necessary.

PB

R J Valentine

unread,
Aug 19, 2001, 11:16:57 PM8/19/01
to

How about Tabasco sauce, cranberry sauce, soy sauce, and duck sauce (or is
that duct sauce?)? Are they not-sauces in the sense that non-sliced=bread
sandwiches aren't sandwiches? Do your sauces have to be ladled on? Is
gravy a sauce? Drawn butter? Does a sauce have to be edible on its own?

--
R. J. Valentine <mailto:r...@smart.net>

Richard Fontana

unread,
Aug 19, 2001, 11:45:44 PM8/19/01
to
On Mon, 20 Aug 2001, R J Valentine wrote:

> On Sun, 19 Aug 2001 18:02:47 -0400 Richard Fontana <rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> wrote:
>
> } On Sun, 19 Aug 2001, Mike Page wrote:
> }
> }> Relish seems to cover the whole gamut of spicy, sweet or piquant things
> }> to be served with food Ketchup and Lea and Perrins are clearly
> }> also sauces.
> }
> } I will assert here that neither conventional tomato ketchup nor
> } Worcestershire sauce are "sauces" in the American English sense.
> }
> } Ketchup is definitely a condiment. Perhaps Worcestershire sauce should
> } also be so described.
> }
> } I think a "sauce" has to be something that is designed to be a defining
> } component of the dishes it is employed in. It cannot be used sparingly as
> } a flavo(u)r enhancer.
>
> How about Tabasco sauce,

Not a sauce.

> cranberry sauce,

Not a sauce at all. Nor is applesauce.

> soy sauce,

Not a sauce.

> and duck sauce (or is
> that duct sauce?)?

Not a sauce.

> Are they not-sauces in the sense that non-sliced=bread
> sandwiches aren't sandwiches?

Possibly.

> Do your sauces have to be ladled on?

No.

> Is gravy a sauce?

Gravy resembles sauce. I think you could get away with calling gravy a
special-purpose sauce. Calling sauce "gravy" is, however, the American
equivalent of non-U.

> Drawn butter?

Possibly.

> Does a sauce have to be edible on its own?

Probably not, but if it is edible on its own it is more likely to be a
sauce.

Frances Kemmish

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Aug 20, 2001, 12:00:53 AM8/20/01
to

Does that include calling pasta sauce "gravy"?

Fran

Richard Fontana

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Aug 20, 2001, 1:13:03 AM8/20/01
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On Mon, 20 Aug 2001, Frances Kemmish wrote:

> Richard Fontana wrote:
> >
> > > Is gravy a sauce?
> >
> > Gravy resembles sauce. I think you could get away with calling gravy a
> > special-purpose sauce. Calling sauce "gravy" is, however, the American
> > equivalent of non-U.
> >
>
> Does that include calling pasta sauce "gravy"?

Indeed it does; that's what I had in mind.

Mike Barnes

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Aug 19, 2001, 6:10:57 PM8/19/01
to
In alt.usage.english, Mike Page <da...@pagedm.orang.fsnet.co.uk> wrote

>I'd classify Branston Pickle as a chutney[1] along
>with any other example of lumpy vegetarian concoctions in a
>thickened vinegar-based medium.

To me a chutney has to be clearly fruit-based. I think Branston is
vegetable-based. (Not long now before we get onto gheavc, fjrqr, and
ehgnontn, I suspect).

>A pickle seems to me to be
>relatively unmucked-about food like onions,

Agreed. In our family, "pickles" were pickled onions.

>walnuts, small
>cucumbers or eggs preserved in vinegar or brine.

But walnuts I can't agree to, unless "relatively unmucked-about"
includes "rendered unrecognisable and inedible".

--
Mike Barnes

Charles Riggs

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Aug 20, 2001, 3:45:53 AM8/20/01
to
On Sun, 19 Aug 2001 23:45:44 -0400, Richard Fontana
<rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> wrote:


>> How about Tabasco sauce,
>
>Not a sauce.

A sauce.

>> cranberry sauce,
>
>Not a sauce at all. Nor is applesauce.

Not sauces. Too thick.

>> soy sauce,
>
>Not a sauce.

A sauce, but it only barely fits the definition, as yet unspecified.

>> and duck sauce (or is
>> that duct sauce?)?
>
>Not a sauce.

Most definitely a sauce. If duck sauce is not a sauce, there is no
such thing as a sauce.

>> Do your sauces have to be ladled on?
>
>No.

Here, you are correct.

>> Is gravy a sauce?
>
>Gravy resembles sauce. I think you could get away with calling gravy a
>special-purpose sauce. Calling sauce "gravy" is, however, the American
>equivalent of non-U.

Technically, a sauce, since A1 and HP are sauces, but nearly everyone
calls it gravy if it is homemade.

>> Drawn butter?
>
>Possibly.

Not a sauce because it is only butter. A sauce has to have more to
it. Similarly, vinegar is not a sauce nor is lemon juice.

>&