A letter to Sis - page 1
Tony Cooper
Sorry for not writing more frequently, but I've been spending too much
time on the computer lately. I've been reading a news group called
"alt.usage.english" which ostensibly has to do with word meanings and
word usage. I say "ostensibly" because that is the chartered purpose
of the group, but the real purpose seems to be to discuss food groups,
food definitions, and forms of words meaning food items. If an army
travels on its' stomach, then an army of pedants travels whilst
discussing the past, present and future contents of its' stomach.
There must be over 400 posts to date just on the definition of a
grilled cheese sandwich. This mighty group has focused their
intellect on the humble sandwich and discussed ad infinitum and ad
nauseam the requirements of the shape of the bread, the cut of the
bread, the name of the bread, the quantity of pieces of bread, the
origin of the bread, and the manner of eating the bread. A side
issue - but one passionately debated - was the means of grilling of
the bread and the implements used. They have not yet gone into the
grilled cheese sandwich with a slice of pickle. I anticipate a lively
discussion on pickles.
Sometimes, the group discusses definitions of words. For example,
they might discuss the word "pedant". Now, you and I might just think
the word means someone that's a picky smartass about spelling mistakes
and using "further" when you mean "farther". These guys don't do it
this way, though. They would give you something like this:
Main Entry: Ped-ant
Pronunciation: 'pe-d&nt
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French, from Italian pedante
Date: 1588
1 obsolete : a male schoolteacher
2a : one who makes a show of knowledge
2b : one who is unimaginative or who unduly emphasizes minutiae in the
presentation or use of knowledge
2c : a formalist or precisionist in teaching
I took this from the Merriam-Webster dictionary, but they would
probably use the Oxford English Dictionary definition. In this group,
referencing the O.E.D. is like flashing your Rolex....it shows you
have a serious enough interest to spend the big bucks.
They don't seem to get into the oddity of words, though. Like a
pedant is something you call someone else, but not something you want
to be called. If you correct my usage, you're a pedant. If I correct
your usage, I'm widening your knowledge base.
The second most widely discussed topic (in the time that I've been
reading the group) in this forum for word usage is geographical
anomalies. I only skimmed the threads, but it seems that in certain
parts of some cities that 12th Avenue can cross 12th Street. This is
considered to be of great interest to these people! They have each
provided detailed analysis of their neighborhood's street grids, house
numbering systems, and nearby roadway patterns. I fully expect the
next great thread to be what street to take to get to a favorite
sandwich shop.
A smaller, but interesting, thread has been on something called Rot13.
This, according to the group, is a sophisticated encrypting system
using one letter of the alphabet to represent another letter of the
alphabet. They evidently have computer programs to both encode and
decode the Rot13 system. It's a young group, Sis, and they must have
grown up long after you could get a Capt. Midnight Code-O-Graph ring
for three Ovaltine labels and 25 cents. We waited by the mailbox for
weeks for ours, and they buy theirs on e-Bay.
It's a mannerly group of people that post in alt.usage.english. The
only thing that seems to upset them is something called "PGP". I
don't understand it all that well, but it seems to be a system that
prevents other people from stealing your news group identity. Their
objection seems to be that adding the PGP information increases the
post by 12 to 14 lines. There have been about 150 posts objecting to
this. Since no one in the group seems to be able to snip to the
relevant lines, this means that they have posted about 4,500 lines of
objection to 12 extra lines in a couple of posts. It must be a
principle thing.
There are some conventions that must be observed in this group. As far
as I can tell, it is déclassé to say Americans or Europeans. You
must say "leftpondians" or "rightpondians". This is a group that will
go to the wall on a discussion of pronominal declensions, but insists
on calling the Atlantic Ocean a pond. I've not yet figured out how to
differentiate South America from Africa.
They've a contest running with a number of questions posted daily. By
the time I read the questions, the answers have already appeared.
I'll give you a question, though: Where do you find a pound that
empties and fills but never should contain a dog or a cat?
Affectionately,
--
Tony Cooper aka: Tony_Co...@Yahoo.com
Provider of Jots & Tittles
R H Draney
<tony_co...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>There are some conventions that must be observed in this group. As far
>as I can tell, it is déclassé to say Americans or Europeans. You
>must say "leftpondians" or "rightpondians". This is a group that will
>go to the wall on a discussion of pronominal declensions, but insists
>on calling the Atlantic Ocean a pond. I've not yet figured out how to
>differentiate South America from Africa.
South America's got better coffee; Africa's got worse epidemics....
(Just helping out wherever I can)....r
--
"Supposedly, after a city was taken, you'd not only see lots
of rape victims, but also lots of people with bleeding ears."
- Kai Henningsen elicits a truly disturbing mental image
Charles Riggs
<tony_co...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Dear Sis:
>
>Sorry for not writing more frequently...
That's OK, bro, but since I am your sister, in the future please don't
follow my name with a colon as if I were a business.
> They have not yet gone into the
>grilled cheese sandwich with a slice of pickle.
I think this was mentioned in passing in at least one of the sandwich
posts, as were tomatoes in grilled cheese sandwiches. For what it's
worth, here's my standard GCS:
Melt some butter in a broiling pan and immerse both sides of two
pieces of whole wheat bread in it. Sprinkle a little Worcestershire
sauce on the inner surfaces of the two slices along with salt.
Place a thick slice of Swiss cheese (cheddar is an alternate) on top
of the lower slice and then cover with a row of longitudinally-sliced
pickles, followed by the top slice of bread.
Broil under heat (grill in GB) for a few minutes on each side until
the cheese is well-melted and the bread is lightly browned.
Charles Riggs
Maria Conlon
>Dear Sis:
[...]
Great, Tony! (I wish I'd come up with the idea.) But I have a quibble
with one little part, and would like you to inform your sister of this
correction lest she get the wrong impression.
>.....It's a young group, Sis, and they must have
>grown up long after you could get a Capt. Midnight Code-O-Graph ring
>for three Ovaltine labels and 25 cents. We waited by the mailbox for
>weeks for ours, and they buy theirs on e-Bay.
The part I object to is "young group." While this may be blatant
flattery, and while such may be appreciated, I would think that most of
us are not especially "young." It depends on your definition of "young,"
sure, but I would think the average age here (among regular posters[1])
is 45+, with many of us in the "+" category.
Not that we're "old," you understand. We're just more experienced than
the clueless kiddies that populate other groups.
By the way, you forgot sheep, or, more likely, don't know about them
yet. You'll hear more about this subject when the contest comes to a
close, though that's not the only time you might encounter the subject.
Some of our British and Irish posters seem to have a thing about sheep,
while Leftpondians are less likely to have...uh...gotten involved.
[1] The term "regular posters" does not, IMO, include the
crossposter-from-Hell and his followers, nor does it include other
cross-posters who never actually read aue, nor does it include the
random dropper-by.
Thanks for the enjoyable post.
Maria (Tootsie)
Matti Lamprhey
> [...]
> They've a contest running with a number of questions posted daily. By
> the time I read the questions, the answers have already appeared.
> I'll give you a question, though: Where do you find a pound that
> empties and fills but never should contain a dog or a cat?
On a hydraulic navigation facility.
(Nice post, Tony.)
Matti
Mike Barnes
>Dear Sis:
>
>Sorry for not writing more frequently, but I've been spending too much
>time on the computer lately. I've been reading a news group called
>"alt.usage.english" which ostensibly has to do with word meanings and
>word usage. I say "ostensibly" because that is the chartered purpose
>of the group, but the real purpose seems to be to discuss food groups,
>food definitions, and forms of words meaning food items. If an army
>travels on its' stomach, then an army of pedants travels whilst
>discussing the past, present and future contents of its' stomach.
:-)
Too much time, but not enough, it seems... "its'", indeed! Harrumph!
I hope you stick around to entertain and inform us. Your sister can
manage without, I'm sure.
--
Mike Barnes
Padraig Breathnach
>... If an army
>travels on its' stomach, then an army of pedants travels whilst
>discussing the past, present and future contents of its' stomach...
>
You want us to discuss English usage? Shall we start with possessive
pronouns? Nah, let's do sheep. I wouldn't like you to consider me a
pedant.
PB
Rowan Dingle
[...]
>By the way, you forgot sheep, or, more likely, don't know about them
>yet. You'll hear more about this subject when the contest comes to a
>close, though that's not the only time you might encounter the subject.
>Some of our British and Irish posters seem to have a thing about sheep,
>while Leftpondians are less likely to have...uh...gotten involved.
Sheep, spelling and political correctness:
===from portal.telegraph.co.uk===
SCHOOLS in Wales have been criticised for having too many pictures of
daffodils, sheep, coal mines and aproned ladies in tall black hats on
their walls.
Inspectors from Estyn, the Welsh equivalent of Ofsted [the English
schools inspectorate], said that schoolchildren needed to be presented
with more modern images of the principality such as economic
regeneration and multiculturalism, such as the presence of pupils of
Bengali, Somali and Yemeni origin.
===5th August===
Clumsy, yes, but where's the spelling mistake?
Whilst looking for Estyn's home site (in vain), I came across this proud
boast from a company that 'provides training, consultancy & inspection
services internationally for educationalists at all levels including
Governors, Senior Management Teams, teachers and inspectors':
===from www.wessexeducation.com/inspect.htm===
Wessex [Associates Ltd] also carries out inspections of primary schools
in Wales for ESTYN (Formally OHMCI). To date we have carried out over
100 of these inspections and continue to be active in this area.
===
(Hint: ESTYN used to be known as OHMCI.)
--
Rowan Dingle
Tony Cooper
]
> You want us to discuss English usage? Shall we start with possessive
> pronouns? Nah, let's do sheep. I wouldn't like you to consider me a
> pedant.
>
Prior to taking up AUE, I spent two years contributing to
soc.culture.irish. (I included a bit of Irish in my greeting above).
That background has contributed greatly to my knowledge of sheep and
the....erm....entertainment value a sheep has to a culchie. I've seen
and written so many sheep jokes and references that I'll baa out of
future posts on this topic.
In soc.culture.irish, food threads are as common as they are here.
They can go twenty posts on a doner kebab any time. Curry, and the
next day effects of curry, are a popular topic and the discussion gets
a bit more detailed than one would expect here. Also popular is the
ever-present argument about the best crisps (Tayto ROI or Tayto UK)
and - as you would expect - beer and stout posts.
We even have a Breathnach there, and he is a mighty poster indeed. A
writer noted for his original and humorous posts, but a man sadly
defeated by the inevitable defeats of the boys from Roscommon.
As to my possessive pronouns...I take it that I was incorrect in using
"its'". I was under the impression that if what follows "its" belongs
to "it", then the apostrophe is in order. What *is* the rule?
Rainer Thonnes
"Maria Conlon" <mcon...@sprynet.com> writes:
>
>The part I object to is "young group." While this may be blatant
>flattery, and while such may be appreciated, I would think that most of
>us are not especially "young." It depends on your definition of "young,"
>sure, but I would think the average age here (among regular posters[1])
>is 45+, with many of us in the "+" category.
Hold on, toots, he said the *group* was young, not its members.
Didn't someone fairly recently send us a birthday card? "Happy
birthday, AUE!", or words to that effect. I forget when it was
supposed to have been born, though.
Anyway, who says 46 is old?
Tony Cooper
> Not that we're "old," you understand. We're just more experienced
than
> the clueless kiddies that populate other groups.
If you didn't listen to the radio serials, send off for the decoder
rings, and get dressed on Saturday morning to "Let's Pretend".....then
you are ":young".
>
> By the way, you forgot sheep, or, more likely, don't know about them
> yet.
See my reply to Breathnach. They say the tricky part is getting their
hind legs in the wellies.
Tony Cooper
> > I'll give you a question, though: Where do you find a pound that
> > empties and fills but never should contain a dog or a cat?
>
> On a hydraulic navigation facility.
If I had a prize, I'd award it. The area in a lock is called a pound.
If you are ever in Brownsville (Brooklyn, not Texas) and need
directions to the Van Wyck without crossing an even numbered street, I
know people that know.
Robert Lipton
People 45 and younger.
Bob
Richard Fontana
> As to my possessive pronouns...I take it that I was incorrect in using
> "its'". I was under the impression that if what follows "its" belongs
> to "it", then the apostrophe is in order. What *is* the rule?
Geez, Tony! Geez!
There is no apostrophe. An apostrophe is used in the contraction "it's" =
"it is/it has" only. For the it-possessive, use, "its", no apostrophe.
Geez, Tony! Geez!
Geez!
Robert E. Lewis
Tony Cooper <tony_co...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:9kvmfi$lc8$1...@slb7.atl.mindspring.net...
> Dear Sis:
>
> Sorry for not writing more frequently, but I've been spending too much
> time on the computer lately. I've been reading a news group called
> "alt.usage.english" which ostensibly has to do with word meanings and
> word usage. I say "ostensibly" because that is the chartered purpose
> of the group, but the real purpose seems to be to discuss food groups,
> food definitions, and forms of words meaning food items. If an army
> travels on its' stomach, then an army of pedants travels whilst
> discussing the past, present and future contents of its' stomach.
>
> There must be over 400 posts to date just on the definition of a
> grilled cheese sandwich. This mighty group has focused their
> intellect on the humble sandwich and discussed ad infinitum and ad
> nauseam the requirements of the shape of the bread, the cut of the
> bread, the name of the bread, the quantity of pieces of bread, the
> origin of the bread, and the manner of eating the bread. A side
> issue - but one passionately debated - was the means of grilling of
> the bread and the implements used. They have not yet gone into the
> grilled cheese sandwich with a slice of pickle. I anticipate a lively
> discussion on pickles.
How did it come to pass that when we say "pickle," we by default mean a
pickled gherkin, and not pickled beets, pickled watermelon, pickled pigs'
feet, etc.?
It's similar to "french fries," meaning french-fried potatoes (at least
Leftpondian), and not french-fried onions, french-fried chicken, and so on.
--
Robert
Aaron J Dinkin
> How did it come to pass that when we say "pickle," we by default mean a
> pickled gherkin, and not pickled beets, pickled watermelon, pickled pigs'
> feet, etc.?
We do? I thought we meant a pickled pickling cucumber. A gherkin is less
than one sixth the size of a typical pickling cuke, isn't it?
I call a pickled gherkin a gherkin.
-Aaron J. Dinkin
Dr. Whom
Tony Cooper
I looked up, and there is clearly no apostrophe after "its". I've
been doing it wrong all these years. I guess I made the jump from
"Charles' stomach" to "its'".
But, hey, I'm just a simple provider of jots and tittles.
Tony Cooper
> How did it come to pass that when we say "pickle," we by default
mean a
> pickled gherkin,
Dunno about you, but a pickle to me is a pickled cucumber. A gherkin
is an immature cucumber and only one type of pickle.
A slight aside....one of the most annoying radio commercials is that
guy from "Star..." whatever it is TV show that does the Priceline ads
where he says something like "I knew it. I knew this would be big."
And back to topic....I knew it. I knew pickles would be big.
Richard Fontana
"Gherkins", pickled, so-called, are certainly marketed as a subcategory of
pickles (= pickled cucumbers).
Mike Lyle
<Pine.GSO.4.21.01081...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu>, Richard Fontana
wrote:
>
>On 10 Aug 2001, Aaron J Dinkin wrote:
>
>> Robert E. Lewis <rle...@brazosport.cc.tx.us> wrote:
>>
>> > How did it come to pass that when we say "pickle," we by default mean a
>> > pickled gherkin, and not pickled beets, pickled watermelon, pickled pigs'
>> > feet, etc.?
>>
>> We do? I thought we meant a pickled pickling cucumber. A gherkin is less
>> than one sixth the size of a typical pickling cuke, isn't it?
>>
>> I call a pickled gherkin a gherkin.
>
Mike.
Aaron J Dinkin
Yes. But if I wanted to say a word that meant, by default 'pickled
gherkin', I would say "gherkin", not "pickle". "Pickle" does mean 'picked
cucumber' by default.
And "gherkin", to me, means 'pickled gherkin' by default. I don't think
I've ever met the non-pickled kind.
Padraig Breathnach
>Scríobh Padraig Breathnach
>]
>> You want us to discuss English usage? Shall we start with possessive
>> pronouns? Nah, let's do sheep. I wouldn't like you to consider me a
>> pedant.
>>
>
>Prior to taking up AUE, I spent two years contributing to
>soc.culture.irish. (I included a bit of Irish in my greeting above).
>
I give you credit for stamina. Six weeks was long enough for me in
SCI.
>That background has contributed greatly to my knowledge of sheep and
>the....erm....entertainment value a sheep has to a culchie. I've seen
>and written so many sheep jokes and references that I'll baa out of
>future posts on this topic.
>
Don't. You can even recycle stuff from SCI, because most people here
don't participate there. Mind you, I have spotted a post recycled from
SCI in this group (Rush, are you reading this?).
>In soc.culture.irish, food threads are as common as they are here.
>They can go twenty posts on a doner kebab any time. Curry, and the
>next day effects of curry, are a popular topic and the discussion gets
>a bit more detailed than one would expect here.
>
The best of Irish cuisine. The recipes here are better.
>Also popular is the
>ever-present argument about the best crisps (Tayto ROI or Tayto UK)
>and - as you would expect - beer and stout posts.
>
For our leftpondian friends: chips.
>We even have a Breathnach there, and he is a mighty poster indeed. A
>writer noted for his original and humorous posts, but a man sadly
>defeated by the inevitable defeats of the boys from Roscommon.
>
>As to my possessive pronouns...I take it that I was incorrect in using
>"its'". I was under the impression that if what follows "its" belongs
>to "it", then the apostrophe is in order. What *is* the rule?
>
"It's" as a contraction for "It is" is correct.
"Its" denoting possession never has an apostrophe. Think of "his"; you
would (I suppose) never think of using an apostrophe with it.
Now, about the sheep ...
PB
Padraig Breathnach
>How did it come to pass that when we say "pickle," we by default mean a
>pickled gherkin, and not pickled beets, pickled watermelon, pickled pigs'
>feet, etc.?
>
Who's this "we"? For me, pickle is an assortment of chopped or diced
vegetables in a brown vinegar sauce.
PB
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Hold on, toots, he said the *group* was young, not its members.
> Didn't someone fairly recently send us a birthday card? "Happy
> birthday, AUE!", or words to that effect. I forget when it was
> supposed to have been born, though.
May 10, 1991. Making it nearly a bit over four years older than
Tony's prior haunt, soc.culture.irish (vote result posted May 13,
1995).
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |The mystery of government is not how
1501 Page Mill Road, Building 1U |Washington works, but how to make it
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |stop.
| P.J. O'Rourke
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
Richard Fontana
That would be a kind of US "relish", possibly a kind of piccalilli.
I think.
felix
> How did it come to pass that when we say "pickle," we by default mean a
> pickled gherkin, and not pickled beets, pickled watermelon, pickled pigs'
> feet, etc.?
>
> It's similar to "french fries," meaning french-fried potatoes (at least
> Leftpondian), and not french-fried onions, french-fried chicken, and so on.
Do the french fry onions, chickens and so on? I'm off to France next
week - I'll ask around, and should I return in one piece, will let you
know.
felix
Mike Barnes
>"its'". I was under the impression that if what follows "its" belongs
>to "it", then the apostrophe is in order. What *is* the rule?
The answer is to be found in another newsgroup (and yes, it really does
exist), called "alt.possessive.its.has.no.apostrophe". You don't even
need to subscribe. :-)
--
Mike Barnes
Padraig Breathnach
My idea of US-type relish is of something containing a lot of tomato
and chilli. Is that too restrictive a view?
The pickle I have in mind is often used to add zing to unexciting
food. I use it a lot with uninteresting cheeses, and sometimes with
ham. In sandwiches.
PB
Richard Fontana
> Richard Fontana <rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> wrote:
>
> >On Fri, 10 Aug 2001, Padraig Breathnach wrote:
> >
> >> "Robert E. Lewis" <rle...@brazosport.cc.tx.us> wrote:
> >>
> >> >How did it come to pass that when we say "pickle," we by default mean a
> >> >pickled gherkin, and not pickled beets, pickled watermelon, pickled pigs'
> >> >feet, etc.?
> >> >
> >> Who's this "we"? For me, pickle is an assortment of chopped or diced
> >> vegetables in a brown vinegar sauce.
> >
> >That would be a kind of US "relish", possibly a kind of piccalilli.
> >I think.
>
> My idea of US-type relish is of something containing a lot of tomato
> and chilli. Is that too restrictive a view?
I think it's an incorrect view. The most conventional sort of unqualified
US "relish" is sweet pickle relish; nothing particularly tomatoey or chili
in it. It's particularly used as a traditional condiment for hotdogs and
hamburgers. There are, however, other, more special purpose, kinds of
relishes; corn relish comes to mind.
Harvey V
<tony_co...@yahoo.com> said:
[snip of a lovely post...]
> I'll give you a question, though: Where do you find a
> pound that empties and fills but never should contain a dog or a
> cat?
It's certainly used in fishing.
(And in case that's not the answer you were thinking of, I'm *still*
correct! Ha!)
Cheers,
Harvey
>
> Affectionately,
Harvey V
Joe Fineman
people in a pickle (a distinct tho not disjoint set).
--
--- Joe Fineman j...@TheWorld.com
||: Anger is ice for the toothache of shame. :||
Joe Fineman
> US "relish" is sweet pickle relish; nothing particularly tomatoey or
> chili in it.
How could you pass up the opportunity to write "chiliey"?
--
--- Joe Fineman j...@TheWorld.com
||: The prince of virtues is courage, and the crown of courage :||
||: is contempt for public opinion. :||
Padraig Breathnach
I did a domestic google -- looked at the label of the jar of "American
style" relish in the larder. It has a long list of ingredients, headed
by tomato (in Ireland, ingredients must be listed in order of
quantity). Oddly, no mention of chilli, although the stuff tastes
strongly of it. It's possibly subsumed under the more general
"flavourings". It claims to contain gherkins as well, but they are not
easily detected. It's not sweet, but is a little on the hot side.
Some varieties of the pickles I mentioned earlier are indeed sweet.
PB
Tony Cooper
> Who's this "we"? For me, pickle is an assortment of chopped or diced
> vegetables in a brown vinegar sauce.
That's Branson Pickle, isn't it? We've some in the pantry. It's
served in the UK with a ploughman's lunch. There are some shops here
where we can buy specialty foods like this. Just a few weeks ago my
wife picked up some Bird's trifle mix for a treat. It always tastes
better over there.
Don Aitken
<tony_co...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Matti wrote:
>
>> > I'll give you a question, though: Where do you find a pound that
>> > empties and fills but never should contain a dog or a cat?
>>
>> On a hydraulic navigation facility.
>
>If I had a prize, I'd award it. The area in a lock is called a pound.
Actually, a pound is the stretch of water *between* two locks.
>If you are ever in Brownsville (Brooklyn, not Texas) and need
>directions to the Van Wyck without crossing an even numbered street, I
>know people that know.
--
Don Aitken