Hyphenation
Bob Coyle
Let's hear from the experts:
In a phrase such as "... calling project specific access functions ..." or
"... through locally stored managed objects ..." should the terms
"project specific" and "locally stored" be hyphenated?
I say that both should be hyphenated, but let's hear your votes.
Donnie Lee Waters
In article <4ncpn9$b...@aurns1.aur.alcatel.com>
hyphen. "Stored" in that sentence is an adjective, and "locally" is an adverb
modifying that adjective. There's no reason to put a hyphen between an adverb
and the word it modifies.
DLW
John Nurick
>"... calling project specific access functions ..." or
>"... through locally stored managed objects ..." should the terms
>"project specific" and "locally stored" be hyphenated?
>
Both, simply because it makes life easier for the poor abused reader.
--
Best wishes
John Nurick
e-mail: j.nu...@dial.pipex.com
v-mail: <+44|0> 191 281 1306
Beeswing
Truly Donovan <tr...@lunemere.com> wrote:
>Bob Coyle wrote:
>>
>> Let's hear from the experts:
>>
>> "... through locally stored managed objects ..." should the terms
>> "project specific" and "locally stored" be hyphenated?
>>
>
I hate to disagree with the esteemed Truly Donovan, but the rules I know
say DON'T hyphenate -ly constructions.
To quote The Associated Press Stylebook, "The principle of using a
hyphen to avoid confusion explains why no hyphen is required
with very and -ly words."
And before someone jumps me to note that AP is not exactly the
most respected source for style dictates, let me add that The Chicago
Manual of Style says basically the same thing -- but the "sound bite"
isn't as good.
The table in the Chicago Manual of Style reads:
Type compound: highly developed species
Similar compounds: poorly seen, barely living, wholly invented,
highly complex
Type: adverb ending in -ly + participle or adjective. Always open.
So, based on what my sources say, "locally stored" is open; "project
specific" is hyphenated.
Truly Donovan
Bob Coyle wrote:
>
> Let's hear from the experts:
>
> In a phrase such as "... calling project specific access functions ..." or
> "... through locally stored managed objects ..." should the terms
> "project specific" and "locally stored" be hyphenated?
>
> I say that both should be hyphenated, but let's hear your votes.
Yup. Definitely.
Truly Donovan
Lars Eighner
In our last episode <319A1C...@lunemere.com>,
Broadcast on alt.usage.english
Nope. The Chicago Manual of Style (opps, there is that dreaded word
again) recommends no hyphen in formations formed of an adverb ending
in -ly plus the past participle. There is a question whether you
mean the objects are both locally stored and locally managed, or
if they are managed objects that happen to be locally stored.
If the former, it should be "locally stored and managed objects,"
and if the latter, it should be "locally stored, managed objects."
BTW, if you do mean the objects are both locally stored and
locally managed, putting a single hyphen in "locally stored"
cannot be the answer.
I'll go with "project-specific," however.
--
=Lars Eighner===4103 Ave D (512)459-6693==Pawn to Queen Four==QSFx2==BMOC==
=eig...@io.com=Austin TX 78751-4617 ==Travels with Lizbeth==Bayou Boy==
= http://www.io.com/~eighner/ =====American Prelude==Gay Cosmos==
="Yes, Lizbeth is well."=======Whispered in the Dark==Elements of Arousal==
Andrea SMM Everard
On 15 May 1996, Bob Coyle wrote:
>
> Let's hear from the experts:
>
> In a phrase such as "... calling project specific access functions ..." or
> "... through locally stored managed objects ..." should the terms
> "project specific" and "locally stored" be hyphenated?
>
> I say that both should be hyphenated, but let's hear your votes.
>
I agree with the hyphenation in both cases.
John Nurick
eig...@io.com (Lars Eighner) wrote:
>Nope. The Chicago Manual of Style (opps, there is that dreaded word
>again) recommends no hyphen in formations formed of an adverb ending
>in -ly plus the past participle. There is a question whether you
>mean the objects are both locally stored and locally managed, or
>if they are managed objects that happen to be locally stored.
>If the former, it should be "locally stored and managed objects,"
>and if the latter, it should be "locally stored, managed objects."
>
>BTW, if you do mean the objects are both locally stored and
>locally managed, putting a single hyphen in "locally stored"
>cannot be the answer.
>
Nohow and contrariwise. One will get you five that the phrase
does indeed describe managed objects that are locally stored -
but sticking a comma in does not help (no matter what they say
in Chicago):
*"The use of locally stored, managed objects allows refibulation
of woggles without..."
Only "locally-stored managed objects" ensures that the local
storage is read as an attribute of the managed objects.
The problem arises because "managed", coming after "locally stored",
looks too much like a verb. No hyphen is needed in
"The use of locally stored playground equipment..."
On objects that are locally stored and locally managed, we agree:
"locally stored and managed objects".
>I'll go with "project-specific," however.
Me too.
Esther Vail
On (15 May 96) Bob Coyle wrote to All...
in
BC> Let's hear from the experts:
BC> In a phrase such as "... calling project specific access
BC> functions ..." or "... through locally stored managed objects
BC> ..." should the terms "project specific" and "locally stored"
BC> be hyphenated?
BC> I say that both should be hyphenated, but let's hear your
BC> votes.
No expert I, but I'm on your side, and also the side of the poor
folks who are going to have to read this kind of thing. Hyphens
play a useful role, making it possible to understand the sentence
on the first reading.
Esther H. Vail, Rochester NY USA
(est...@rochgte.fidonet.org)
Felicia E. Narvaez
On May 15, 1996 14:28:57 in article <Hyphenation>, 'co...@aur.alcatel.com
(Bob Coyle)' wrote:
>In a phrase such as "... calling project specific access functions ..." or
>"... through locally stored managed objects ..." should the terms
>"project specific" and "locally stored" be hyphenated?
All my reference books state that adverbs ending in "ly" should NOT be
hyphenated with adjectival verbals.
Your first phrase may need more than just the one hyphen with
"project-specific." As it is, even with that hyphen, I can't fathom its
meaning.
John Crane
In article <Pine.OSF.3.91.96051...@alcor.concordia.ca>,
Andrea SMM Everard <a_e...@alcor.concordia.ca> wrote:
> On 15 May 1996, Bob Coyle wrote:
>
> >
> > Let's hear from the experts:
> >
> > In a phrase such as "... calling project specific access functions ..." or
> > "... through locally stored managed objects ..." should the terms
> > "project specific" and "locally stored" be hyphenated?
> >
> > I say that both should be hyphenated, but let's hear your votes.
> >
> I agree with the hyphenation in both cases.
I would hyphenate both, too. I would also try to reword the the phrases so
they don't sound like government manuals, and that might negate the need
for hyphens.
John
Markus Laker
nar...@nyc.pipeline.com(Felicia E. Narvaez) wrote:
> Your first phrase may need more than just the one hyphen with
> "project-specific." As it is, even with that hyphen, I can't fathom its
> meaning.
It sounds to me as though it comes from a specification of the inner
workings of a piece of software, or the way in which two pieces of software
communicate. Unless that's your particular bucket of blood, it won't mean
much to you.
--
Markus Laker.
David Rosalky
I disagree with you both, Bob and Esther. The term "project-specific" does
need to be hyphenated because it is a compound adjective where the first part
is a noun and is joined to an adjective. The hyphen removes ambiguity from
this artificial construct.
The second example, however, _must not_ have a hyphen. The "locally" is an
adverb unambiguously applying to the adjective (or participle in this case)
"stored".
_______________________________________________________________
David Rosalky Canberra,
dav...@pcug.org.au AUSTRALIA
61-6-2731927
Daniel L. Sosnoski
Bob Coyle wrote:
> Let's hear from the experts:
> In a phrase such as "... calling project specific access functions ..." or
> "... through locally stored managed objects ..." should the terms
> "project specific" and "locally stored" be hyphenated?
> I say that both should be hyphenated, but let's hear your votes.
In the first phrase, there is ambiguity as to whether project modifies
specific or specific modifies access. The insertion of a hyphen to create
"project-specific" resolves the dilemma and eases the burden on the reader.
The call from this desk is: agreed, a hyphen is needed after "project."
The second case requires no thought whatsoever. (Shame on Truly for saying
"Yup" and missing this one.) Compound modifiers containing adverbs in the -ly
form are *never* hyphenated, and the reason is a simple one: the adverb, here
clearly an adverb, can only modify the word it precedes. Here, I must hold up
my hand and protest: no, a hyphen is not needed after "locally."
Enjoying the delightfully written cogent posts on a.u.e,
DLS
_______________________________
Daniel Sosnoski - Editor, Charles E. Tuttle Publishing Co.
<sosnoski%tuttle.co.jp> http://www.cyber.ad.jp/~tuttle
"Words, like Nature, half reveal and half conceal the Soul
within." -Tennyson
Markus Laker
sosnoski%tut...@fca.cyber.ad.jp (Daniel L. Sosnoski) wrote:
> The second case requires no thought whatsoever. (Shame on Truly for saying
> "Yup" and missing this one.) Compound modifiers containing adverbs in the -ly
> form are *never* hyphenated, and the reason is a simple one: the adverb, here
> clearly an adverb, can only modify the word it precedes. Here, I must hold up
> my hand and protest: no, a hyphen is not needed after "locally."
> Enjoying the delightfully written cogent posts on a.u.e,
> DLS
The _Oxford English_ (1986 ed, page 32) quotes Angus Wilson:
Sir Edgar, who had heard one or two more-sophisticated rumours
The meaning would be altered if the hyphen were removed. This demonstrates
that adverbs in general can be joined by hyphens to the words they modify.
I'd argue that a '-ly' suffix changes nothing.
Enjoying the friendly-written posts on a.u.e,
--
Markus Laker.
James Eason
Daniel L. Sosnoski wrote:
> The second case requires no thought whatsoever. (Shame on Truly for saying
> "Yup" and missing this one.) Compound modifiers containing adverbs in the -ly
> form are *never* hyphenated, and the reason is a simple one: the adverb, here
> clearly an adverb, can only modify the word it precedes. Here, I must hold up
> my hand and protest: no, a hyphen is not needed after "locally."
>
> Enjoying the delightfully written cogent posts on a.u.e,
> DLS
It is (perhaps, though I disagree) true that adverbly-adjective
combinations never _need_ a hyphen, but it is certainly not the case
that such modifiers _are_ never hyphenated. For instance, wine that is
made locally might well be termed a "locally-made wine", for the
reaons that "made wine" is a possible noun formation in English. There
are about a quintillion other such examples. Hyphens are truly a
matter for nightmares, and I often prefer a long and gorgeous phrase
to the more compact but possibly-hyphenated version. But that is,
perhaps, my nature,
Your kindly-inclined servant,
James
Truly Donovan
James Eason wrote:
>
> Daniel L. Sosnoski wrote:
>
> > The second case requires no thought whatsoever. (Shame on Truly for saying
> > "Yup" and missing this one.) Compound modifiers containing adverbs in the -ly
> > form are *never* hyphenated, and the reason is a simple one: the adverb, here
> > clearly an adverb, can only modify the word it precedes. Here, I must hold up
> > my hand and protest: no, a hyphen is not needed after "locally."
HARUMPH! I didn't miss nuthin. I was asked for an opinion and I gave it. Anyone
who has the idea that I cannot use a hyphen when I choose to has underestimated
me.
> >
> > Enjoying the delightfully written cogent posts on a.u.e,
> > DLS
>
> It is (perhaps, though I disagree) true that adverbly-adjective
> combinations never _need_ a hyphen, but it is certainly not the case
> that such modifiers _are_ never hyphenated. For instance, wine that is
> made locally might well be termed a "locally-made wine", for the
> reaons that "made wine" is a possible noun formation in English. There
> are about a quintillion other such examples. Hyphens are truly a
> matter for nightmares, and I often prefer a long and gorgeous phrase
> to the more compact but possibly-hyphenated version. But that is,
> perhaps, my nature,
And now I know why I feel the way I do. Thanks, James.
Truly Donovan
Wendell Cochran
In article <31A68B...@lunemere.com>,
Truly Donovan <tr...@lunemere.com> wrote:
>James Eason wrote:
>>
>> Daniel L. Sosnoski wrote:
>>
>> > The second case requires no thought whatsoever. (Shame on Truly for saying
>> > "Yup" and missing this one.) Compound modifiers containing adverbs in the -ly
>> > form are *never* hyphenated, and the reason is a simple one: the adverb, here
>> > clearly an adverb, can only modify the word it precedes. Here, I must hold up
>> > my hand and protest: no, a hyphen is not needed after "locally."
>
>HARUMPH! I didn't miss nuthin. I was asked for an opinion and I gave it. Anyone
>who has the idea that I cannot use a hyphen when I choose to has underestimated
>me.
Every rule for hyphening seems to leak, but in my experience any word
ending in -ly comes with a built-in hyphen.
I say again: I've been known to break my own rule, & without regret.
Wendell Cochran
West Seattle
Joseph Chacko
> Enjoying the friendly-written posts on a.u.e,
Are we then to assume that hyphenation can be used to legitimise the use
of an adjective as an adverb? Perhaps this is also allowable:
I do not have time to read all the good-written posts on a.u.e.
--
Psst
Markus Laker
Joseph Chacko <j...@sheril.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4o2nat$n...@zeus.tcp.co.uk> la...@tcp.co.uk "Markus Laker" writes:
> > Enjoying the friendly-written posts on a.u.e,
> Are we then to assume that hyphenation can be used to legitimise the use
> of an adjective as an adverb?
Not at all. I took care to check in a good dictionary (COD9) that
'friendly' can be used as an adverb, although admittedly its adjectival
usage is more common. I also concede that my example sentence was pretty
contrived, since it depended on my finding a '-ly' word which was both
adjective and adverb.
> Perhaps this is also allowable:
> I do not have time to read all the good-written posts on a.u.e.
Certainly not. We both agree that this is terrible.
--
Markus Laker.
Roy Lakin
In article <4ovfee$9...@zeus.tcp.co.uk>, Markus Laker <la...@tcp.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Perhaps this is also allowable:
>
>> I do not have time to read all the good-written posts on a.u.e.
>
>Certainly not. We both agree that this is terrible.
Agreed. "good-written posts on a.u.e." is an oxymoron, there is zero time
needed to read them all, so the statement is a non-sequitur.
Roy.
Joseph Chacko
> Joseph Chacko <j...@sheril.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > In article <4o2nat$n...@zeus.tcp.co.uk> la...@tcp.co.uk "Markus Laker" writes:
>
> > > Enjoying the friendly-written posts on a.u.e,
>
> > Are we then to assume that hyphenation can be used to legitimise the use
> > of an adjective as an adverb?
>
> Not at all. I took care to check in a good dictionary (COD9) that
> 'friendly' can be used as an adverb, although admittedly its adjectival
> usage is more common. I also concede that my example sentence was pretty
> contrived, since it depended on my finding a '-ly' word which was both
> adjective and adverb.
>
Ahaa! Sorry, I was assuming things again. Now I have to get used to
another usage of this word, "friendly". It still doesn't seem right,
although it is a huge improvement on the childish "friendlily", or the
pompous "in a friendly manner".
--
Psst
Keith C. Ivey
atr...@eskimo.com (Wendell Cochran) wrote:
>Every rule for hyphening seems to leak, but in my experience any word
>ending in -ly comes with a built-in hyphen.
Surely you mean any *adverb* ending in -ly. I would never write
"locally-grown fruit", but I would write "silly-sounding word"
or "scholarly-looking man".
Keith C. Ivey <kci...@cpcug.org> Washington, DC
Contributing Editor/Webmaster
The Editorial Eye <http://www.eei-alex.com/eye/>
Wendell Cochran
In article <4padll$r...@news4.digex.net>,
As I said, every rule for hyphening leaks. Mine, as stated, is only a
starting point.
A _lot_ of writers were born to mothers badly frightened by the parts of
speech.
Wendell Cochran atr...@eskimo.com
West Seattle