To the back forty?
Marius Hancu
"The back forty?"
what would that be?
"Highway 40 passing at the back of the house?"
----
[He's incorrigible in terms of making visits at inappropriate times]
... then I am beyond even a chance of reclamation, let alone hope of
measurable improvement. You might just as well lead me out of the barn
now down to the back forty, and have the hired man shoot me point-blank
in the head.
Bomber's Law, by George V. Higgins, p. 98
--------
Thanks.
Marius Hancu
Richard Yates
From: http://onlineslangdictionary.com/definition+of/back+40
back 40
noun
1.. wild or rough terrain adjacent to a developed area. "We spent all
night doing manuevers in the back 40."
origin
1.. Origin: shortened form of "back 40 acres." A land owner or farmer who
has developed part of their property (e.g. planted crops or use the land for
cattle grazing) may refer to their undeveloped land as the "back X," where X
is some number of acres. "40" has become the popular number to cite when
using this expression.
Marius Hancu
Thank you very much.
Marius Hancu
tony cooper
wrote:
The back forty refers to 40 acres, but the usage now includes any
amount of land (not even one full acre) that is rough or untended. If
my house had a large back yard that hadn't been mowed for a few weeks,
I might say that I'm going to go out to mow the back forty. For that
matter, the "back 40" might be in the front or side of my house.
The use of "40", rather than 20 or 60 or whatever, goes back to the
"40 acres and a mule" that was granted to slaves after the (American)
Civil War. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/40_acres_and_a_mule
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Pat Durkin
news:gblcsc$qpr$1...@aioe.org
> Hello:
>
> "The back forty?"
> what would that be?
As Richard said.
In much of the US, surveys are based on the Township/Range plat, with
the Township ideally consisting in 36 square miles, a square six miles
on the side.
The square mile is a full section of 640 acres, frequently partitioned
and sold or settled in square quarter-sections. . .160 acres. The back
forty would be the most remote of a farmer's land, assuming his house
and barn are nearest the section or town-line road. Presumably, his
"back forty" would be next to his neighbors' back forties, hence the
most remote area in a farming community, at a distance of a half mile.
My grandfather, for example accumulated failed settled-and-proved
homesteads to the point at which, at his death, he owned more than 900
acres of good Wisconsin farm land. No money, you know. Just land. But
he was "rich".
HVS
Popular, I think, because it came from "the quarter of a quarter-
section not bounded by a road".
A section is 640 acres (1 mile x 1 mile); a quarter-section (of
160 acres) is 1/2 mile x 1/2 mile; that further subdivides into
four 40-acre squares.
If you have rights-of-way running along the 1-mile boundaries,
three of the 40-acre squares of a quarter-section will lie along a
road; the "back 40" squares, however, are land-locked by the
surrounding 40-acre parcels.
--
Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed
Barbara Bailey
> Hello:
>
> "The back forty?"
> what would that be?
>
> "Highway 40 passing at the back of the house?"
>
>
> ----
> [He's incorrigible in terms of making visits at inappropriate times]
>
> ... then I am beyond even a chance of reclamation, let alone hope of
> measurable improvement. You might just as well lead me out of the barn
> now down to the back forty, and have the hired man shoot me point-blank
> in the head.
The back forty is the most distant field or pasture from the hopuse on a
farm. (Originally it would be the back forty acres -- the forty acres at
the back of the property. The house would usually be at or near the front
of the property, assuming that the road formed the front property line.)
What happens in the back forty is easily concealed or ignored and is least
likely to disturb the people in the house. An animal that had to be put
down would often be taken out to the back forty and shot, point-blank, in
the head.
You may also come across the back forty used simply to mean "a remote
location, one that is a great distance away, or that takes a long time to
get to or from".
tony cooper
wrote:
I'm not in total agreement with this. While your information is
correct, "the back 40" is a phrase that is used, and has been
popularized by, people who have no understanding of the above
breakdown.
The phrase "40 acres and a mule", however, is familiar to both city
dwellers and farmers. The source is not always known by the people
who use it, but the phrase is known. (We often use phrases that have
some historical origin without knowing what the origin is)
I lean to this phrase being the reason for the popular usage of "the
back 40".
Dan Leifker
> Hello:
>
> "The back forty?"
> what would that be?
I've heard "back forty" in the southern U.S., but rarely anywhere else.
My parents used to live in Corpus Christi, Texas, and there was a
famous restaurant (at least to the locals north of town) called the
"Back Forty" with three wings labeled the "back forty," the "west
forty," and the "east forty." But I think the "east" and "west" were
playful extensions.
They had the best chicken-fried steak in the world. It was so rich that
after each bite you'd feel as if you'd eaten an entire box of donuts. I
remember waddling out after dinner many Saturday evenings.
A Web search shows a chain of restaurants today called the Back Forty
Texas BBQ, one even in lovely Shingle Springs, California (not far from
Mother Lode Drive, where do they get these names?), but they're not
connected to the place I was lovingly remembering from 25 years ago.
dleifker
HVS
> On Sat, 27 Sep 2008 15:05:22 +0100, HVS
> <use...@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> Popular, I think, because it came from "the quarter of a
>> quarter-section not bounded by a road".
>>
>> A section is 640 acres (1 mile x 1 mile); a quarter-section
>> (of 160 acres) is 1/2 mile x 1/2 mile; that further subdivides
>> into four 40-acre squares.
>>
>> If you have rights-of-way running along the 1-mile boundaries,
>> three of the 40-acre squares of a quarter-section will lie
>> along a road; the "back 40" squares, however, are land-locked
>> by the surrounding 40-acre parcels.
>
> I'm not in total agreement with this. While your information is
> correct, "the back 40" is a phrase that is used, and has been
> popularized by, people who have no understanding of the above
> breakdown.
>
> The phrase "40 acres and a mule", however, is familiar to both
> city dwellers and farmers. The source is not always known by
> the people who use it, but the phrase is known. (We often use
> phrases that have some historical origin without knowing what
> the origin is)
Well, I don't think people had (or needed) any idea where the "back
40" came from for it to become popular; sorry if that seemed to be
implied.
I do think, though, that that's probably how references to "the
back 40" originally entered common usage, as it refers to a
specific type of 40-parcel -- the "back one" -- rather than any old
regular kind of 40-acre holding.
> I lean to this phrase being the reason for the popular usage of
> "the back 40".
Fair 'nuff; we'll have to differ. (I think the land surveying one
is more likely; every farmer I've met has been cannily aware of
who owns or controls what sort of access to the various parts of
his land.)
Don Phillipson
news:gblcsc$qpr$1...@aioe.org...
> "The back forty?"
> what would that be?
> . . .
> ... then I am beyond even a chance of reclamation, let alone hope of
> measurable improvement. You might just as well lead me out of the barn
> now down to the back forty, and have the hired man shoot me point-blank
> in the head.
>
> Bomber's Law, by George V. Higgins, p. 98
This was a unit of land (viz. 40 acres) common infarming
regions of N.America. By the 18th century most land was
surveyed in townships 6 miles square, with road allowances
at one-mile intervals. The smalllest usual size of a farm was
one section viz. 160 acres, occupying a quarter of the one-mile
road grid. Forty acres was a quarter of a section -- typically the
part of the land a farmer might leave as forest (a wood-lot) or, if
all was cultivated, the quarter-section he would leave fallow for
a year, each 40 acre parcel in turn, when rotating his crops.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
mm
wrote:
>Hello:
>
>"The back forty?"
>what would that be?
>
>"Highway 40 passing at the back of the house?"
>
>
>----
>[He's incorrigible in terms of making visits at inappropriate times]
>
>... then I am beyond even a chance of reclamation, let alone hope of
>measurable improvement. You might just as well lead me out of the barn
>now down to the back forty, and have the hired man shoot me point-blank
>in the head.
Of course no one is really going to shoot him, unless this is an
unusual book. But here I think *back* 40 means fantasy shooting is
still not something one would want to do near the farm house and the
people in it.
But I doubt if most of the back 40 is still especially wild. Fewer
and fewer farmers need firewood to heat the house these days, and more
and mre would want to farm most of the land they have, as farm
equipment allows one man or two to farm more land.
Farm land is often bought and more often referred to in 40 acre
parcels. While most farms rotate their crops, I think, the back 40
is no more likely to be fallow on a random year than the front 40,
near the road and right by the house. Or any other parcel of land the
farmer owns.
My educated guess is that 40 acres goes back longer than the phrase 40
acres and a mule. Rather it's the other way around, 40 acres was used
in that expression because that was a common measure that was enough
land that can modestly support a family when used for farming.
BTW, "40 acres and a mule" was a plan to give that much to each freed
slave family, so they would have enough to be independent, but it
didn't have enough support and never came to pass. So iiuc most freed
slaves ended up working for the same people for whom they used to be
slaves, or for other similar people, or as tenant farmers on the land
of such people. You usually can't make much money as a tenant farmer,
and this and other things inhibited the progress of most black
Americans for another, 50, 75, or 100 years.
>Bomber's Law, by George V. Higgins, p. 98
>--------
>
>Thanks.
>Marius Hancu
--
A tribute to Erols/RCN/Starpower which took away newsgroups,
without giving any notice, in advance or when they did it!!
And a real tribute to https://www.forteinc.com/apn/subscribe.php
which starts at 3 dollars for 12 gigs a month,
including alt, misc, the big 8 and everything else, 12 gigs is
far more than someone who dl's mostly text should ever need.
Cece
>
> - Show quoted text -
I connect my own history of knowing this phrase with the farm that
Lassie lived on -- with Jeff, way before Timmy.
HVS
> "Marius Hancu" <NOS...@videotron.ca> wrote in message
> news:gblcsc$qpr$1...@aioe.org...
>
>> "The back forty?"
>> what would that be?
>> . . .
>> ... then I am beyond even a chance of reclamation, let alone
>> hope of measurable improvement. You might just as well lead me
>> out of the barn now down to the back forty, and have the hired
>> man shoot me point-blank in the head.
>>
>> Bomber's Law, by George V. Higgins, p. 98
>
> This was a unit of land (viz. 40 acres) common infarming
> regions of N.America. By the 18th century most land was
> surveyed in townships 6 miles square, with road allowances
> at one-mile intervals. The smalllest usual size of a farm was
> one section viz. 160 acres, occupying a quarter of the one-mile
> road grid.
It's been almost 30 years, so memory may be playing a trick...
I'm pretty sure, though, that when I worked in property development
in Alberta in the late 1970s a "section" was the 1 mile x 1 mile
block -- 640 acres -- and that the 160-acre allotment (the cowboy
song's "160-acres-in-a-valley") was a "quarter section".
tony cooper
wrote:
While the 40 acre unit may go back further in time, the question here
is why the writer would have the character use the phrase. It would
seem the character would use a term that has meaning as part of a
phrase and not meaning as a land division unit.
We are, of course, dealing with opinion here and not fact. The
opinion is about why the author had the character use the phrase.
There is no doubt about fact of 40 acres being a standard division of
a parcel of land in the US.
HVS
> On Sat, 27 Sep 2008 14:39:20 -0400, mm
> <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
>> My educated guess is that 40 acres goes back longer than the
>> phrase 40 acres and a mule. Rather it's the other way around,
>> 40 acres was used in that expression because that was a common
>> measure that was enough land that can modestly support a family
>> when used for farming.
>
> While the 40 acre unit may go back further in time, the question
> here is why the writer would have the character use the phrase.
Simply because it's become an idiomatic phrase, and has lost all
reference to something real; the motive doesn't need to resolve
analytically.
> It would seem the character would use a term that has meaning
> as part of a phrase and not meaning as a land division unit.
Nope; the character is just using a term that means "somewhere
private/the back of beyond".
> We are, of course, dealing with opinion here and not fact. The
> opinion is about why the author had the character use the
> phrase. There is no doubt about fact of 40 acres being a
> standard division of a parcel of land in the US.
--
tony cooper
wrote:
>On 27 Sep 2008, tony cooper wrote
>
>> On Sat, 27 Sep 2008 14:39:20 -0400, mm
>> <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>>
>>> My educated guess is that 40 acres goes back longer than the
>>> phrase 40 acres and a mule. Rather it's the other way around,
>>> 40 acres was used in that expression because that was a common
>>> measure that was enough land that can modestly support a family
>>> when used for farming.
>>
>> While the 40 acre unit may go back further in time, the question
>> here is why the writer would have the character use the phrase.
>
>Simply because it's become an idiomatic phrase, and has lost all
>reference to something real; the motive doesn't need to resolve
>analytically.
>
>> It would seem the character would use a term that has meaning
>> as part of a phrase and not meaning as a land division unit.
>
>Nope; the character is just using a term that means "somewhere
>private/the back of beyond".
Oh, I understand that. My point is that using "back 40" to mean
"somewhere ..." seems like it should originate from something that
would be familiar to the character, and that I think it's familiar
because of the saying and not because of the land division.
No biggie, though. As I said below, we are individually offering
opinion and not fact.
>> We are, of course, dealing with opinion here and not fact. The
>> opinion is about why the author had the character use the
>> phrase. There is no doubt about fact of 40 acres being a
>> standard division of a parcel of land in the US.
--
Hatunen
<dur...@sbc.com> wrote:
>"Marius Hancu" <NOS...@videotron.ca> wrote in message
>news:gblcsc$qpr$1...@aioe.org
>> Hello:
>>
>> "The back forty?"
>> what would that be?
>
>As Richard said.
>
>In much of the US, surveys are based on the Township/Range plat, with
>the Township ideally consisting in 36 square miles, a square six miles
>on the side.
>
>The square mile is a full section of 640 acres, frequently partitioned
>and sold or settled in square quarter-sections. . .160 acres. The back
>forty would be the most remote of a farmer's land, assuming his house
>and barn are nearest the section or town-line road. Presumably, his
>"back forty" would be next to his neighbors' back forties, hence the
>most remote area in a farming community, at a distance of a half mile.
That's pretty much the explanation. Might add, though, that under
the Homestead Act, a homesteader could gain title to a quarter
section of land (a section being nominally a square mile), as
surveyed under the Public Lands Survey System ("township and
range system") invented by Thomas Jefferson for the survey of the
original Northwest Territory, and subsequently extended to the
rest of the United States, not to mention much of Canada. The
homesteader normally considered the land to be of four forty acre
parts.
--
************* DAVE HATUNEN (hat...@cox.net) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
Pat Durkin
news:a3jtd49rkv9j6lqen...@4ax.com
I concur. The quarter section was considered a standard homestead, to
be proved by residence upon it for a given period of time. Some land
was purchased for $1 per acre, but in some areas the land was free for
the settling, and the only cost was the registration fee and proof of
residence on the land claim. "Land office business" was a term used to
explain the land rush in areas when they were opened to settlement, some
time after the surveys. My grandfather managed to buy up considerable
proved acreage from neighbors who quit the land for one reason or
another. When he died in 1914, he was possessed of more than 900 acres.
Doesn't sound like much in Texas, Wyoming, etc, but good Wisconsin
bottom land commanded a premium.
Hatunen
You are correct. The so-called township and range survey system,
known in the USA formally as the Public Lands Survey System, was
invented by Tomas Jefferson for the survey of public lands in the
Northwest Territory (the present states of Wisconsin, Michigan,
Illinois, Indiana and Ohio) and extended later to all public
lands in the new western regions. It was also adopted by Canada
with, I believe, some minor modifications.
A section is nominally one square mile and they are numbered 1
through 36 in a six mile square township. A given ten acre parcel
may be described as, for instance, the NE quarter of the SW
quarter of the NW quarter of Section 24, Township 21 South, Range
14 East, written as NE 1/4 SW 1/4 NW 1/4 Sect 24 T21S R14E.
R H Draney
>
>A section is nominally one square mile and they are numbered 1
>through 36 in a six mile square township. A given ten acre parcel
>may be described as, for instance, the NE quarter of the SW
>quarter of the NW quarter of Section 24, Township 21 South, Range
>14 East, written as NE 1/4 SW 1/4 NW 1/4 Sect 24 T21S R14E.
You need one more pair of qualifiers...T21S R14E of what baseline and
meridian?...
(Unstated but perhaps of interest: the numbering of the 36 sections in a
township is boustrophedonic)....r
--
Little-known fact: About 2% of the famous
quotations credited to "Anonymous" were actually
originated by Jasper D Anonymous, a 14th-century
maker of carriage wheels.
Pat Durkin
news:gbn1t...@drn.newsguy.com
> Hatunen filted:
>>
>> A section is nominally one square mile and they are numbered 1
>> through 36 in a six mile square township. A given ten acre parcel
>> may be described as, for instance, the NE quarter of the SW
>> quarter of the NW quarter of Section 24, Township 21 South, Range
>> 14 East, written as NE 1/4 SW 1/4 NW 1/4 Sect 24 T21S R14E.
>
> You need one more pair of qualifiers...T21S R14E of what baseline and
> meridian?...
>
> (Unstated but perhaps of interest: the numbering of the 36 sections
> in a township is boustrophedonic)....r
Oh, and one of those 36 sections was to be devoted to public education.
As an example, frequently one of the center sections was so labeled, but
if it was very good land, then some poorer land was chosen, and a school
built upon it, with the remainder sold to build the school, buy a
teacher, etc, or neighboring farmers could rent the land with the funds
to go to support the school.
Chuck Riggs
<tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote:
<snip>
>No biggie, though. As I said below, we are individually offering
>opinion and not fact.
Some members have been striving for fact, for what good are opinions?
As a coworker of mine used to say, "Opinions are like assholes:
everyone has one".
--
Regards,
Chuck Riggs
Near Dublin, Ireland
John Kane
I would tend to agree with Harvey although since I grew up in rough
country the idea of a landlocked back 40 was not terribly relevant.
The property had only one road.
However it is clear to any farmer or ex-farmer that the back 40 has to
be either distant (that is, far back from the farm buildings/road or
hard to access. Given that the phrase had to originate somewhere it
seems likely that this would be it.
The term 40 acres and a mule simple apprears to be a reference to a
small landholding that can be farmed by one family with a mule. It
would have no direct relevance to the back forty concept.
This was probably close to the smallest practical economic unit in
some agricultural areas in the USA.
John Kane Kingston ON Canada
John Kane
Indeed: A section is 640 acres--a 160 acres is a quarter section. I
don't believe that there is any name for forty acres ( Front lawn in
Saskatchewan?).
Hatunen
wrote:
>Hatunen filted:
>>
>>A section is nominally one square mile and they are numbered 1
>>through 36 in a six mile square township. A given ten acre parcel
>>may be described as, for instance, the NE quarter of the SW
>>quarter of the NW quarter of Section 24, Township 21 South, Range
>>14 East, written as NE 1/4 SW 1/4 NW 1/4 Sect 24 T21S R14E.
>
>You need one more pair of qualifiers...T21S R14E of what baseline and
>meridian?...
That's usually presumed from teh general location, but you're
right, and I almost added "Gila and Salt River Meridian and
Baseline."
rwalker
"HVS" <use...@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Xns9B26D48D...@78.46.73.112...
Right. Same in the U.S. 40 acres would be a quarter-quarter-section. The
"back forty" is simply a euphimism for the most remote part of the farm or
property. In my case it's the garden shed.
Mike Lyle
> On Sat, 27 Sep 2008 16:46:31 -0400, tony cooper
> <tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> No biggie, though. As I said below, we are individually offering
>> opinion and not fact.
>
> Some members have been striving for fact, for what good are opinions?
> As a coworker of mine used to say, "Opinions are like assholes:
> everyone has one".
And very useful both possessions can be, too. I hold myself twice blest
in owning only one of the latter, but a large number of the former.
Cue Oz crow gag 7,973,064 ver 2.3. Low-flying jet fighter suddenly
screams past two crows, one of whom nearly suffers a cardiac thingie:
"Jeezmate*! That bastard was shifting!" "Yeahmate. So would you if you
had two arseholes and they were both on fire!"
*Variant spelling, "cheesemite".
--
Mike.
Chuck Riggs
<mike_l...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>Chuck Riggs wrote:
>> On Sat, 27 Sep 2008 16:46:31 -0400, tony cooper
>> <tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> No biggie, though. As I said below, we are individually offering
>>> opinion and not fact.
>>
>> Some members have been striving for fact, for what good are opinions?
>> As a coworker of mine used to say, "Opinions are like assholes:
>> everyone has one".
>
>And very useful both possessions can be, too. I hold myself twice blest
>in owning only one of the latter, but a large number of the former.
Although it'd give me pain to give up the former, it'd give me
substantially more to give up the latter.
<snip>