Et tu, Brute?
Dave Krug
The question was posed in humanities.lit.authors.shakespeare if Julius
Caesar's dying words to Brutus had some more forceful connotation than
simply "And Thou?" It was mentioned that this expression might have been
the equivalent to calling him (Brutus) a SOB.
Can someone confirm or deny? Thanks.
Regards,
Dave Krug
please remove "nospam" from my address to reply.
Pierre Jelenc
Dave Krug <nospamb...@capital.net> writes:
> The question was posed in humanities.lit.authors.shakespeare if Julius
> Caesar's dying words to Brutus had some more forceful connotation than
> simply "And Thou?" It was mentioned that this expression might have been
> the equivalent to calling him (Brutus) a SOB.
It means "You too!" or "Even you!". "Et" used like this at the beginning
of a sentence is not the simple coordinating conjunction.
Pierre
--
Tired of TV reruns? Help is on the way!
New York City | Home Office
Beer Guide | Records
http://www.nycbeer.org/ | http://www.web-ho.com/
David Malecki
Pierre Jelenc wrote:
>
> It means "You too!" or "Even you!". "Et" used like this at the beginning
> of a sentence is not the simple coordinating conjunction.
Hi, I've been browsing for a while and thought I'd jump in on this one.
As I recall, my highschool Latin teacher said that "Et tu, Brute" was
actually
short for "Etiam tu, Brute" which means "Even you, Brutus".
Dave
Ross Howard
On 6 Mar 1998 08:50:31 -0500, lrud...@panix.com (Lee Rudolph) wrote:
>alde...@netcom9.netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III) writes:
>
>>Caesar's reported words were actually Greek, rather than Latin: _kai su, pais?_
>>"And thou, child/son?"
>
>I remembered it differently, as "kai su, teknon?"; an AltaVista web
>search finds two instances of that, one of "Kai su Tecktonen?" (wozzat?),
Are you sure that Kaiser Julie was referring to Brutus? It looks
suspiciously like he could have been addressing either a grindingly
efficient Finnish rally driver or Sir Gordon Sting -- in his
unforgettable role as a Very Spotty Herbert in *Dune* (yes, the movie
that features the worst process shot in the history of big-budget
filmmaking, when the Kylester is -- ahem -- "riding" the worm; an
image so hopeless it makes the shipyard in *Marnie* look like, well, a
not-so-crappy painting of a shipyard).
Ross Howard
****************************************************
There's a number in my e-mail address. Subtract four
from it to reply.
****************************************************
MadMax
Dave Krug <nospamb...@capital.net> wrote in article
<6dnbgl$4q$1...@Usenet.Logical.NET>...
> The question was posed in humanities.lit.authors.shakespeare if
Julius
> Caesar's dying words to Brutus had some more forceful connotation than
> simply "And Thou?" It was mentioned that this expression might have been
> the equivalent to calling him (Brutus) a SOB.
Well, it is now.
Richard M. Alderson III
In article <6dnbgl$4q$1...@Usenet.Logical.NET> "Dave Krug"
<nospamb...@capital.net> writes:
>The question was posed in humanities.lit.authors.shakespeare if Julius
>Caesar's dying words to Brutus had some more forceful connotation than simply
>"And Thou?" It was mentioned that this expression might have been the
>equivalent to calling him (Brutus) a SOB.
Caesar's reported words were actually Greek, rather than Latin: _kai su, pais?_
"And thou, child/son?" Grist for the gossips' mill for more than 2000 years
now, but Marcus Junius Brutus was most likely not Gaius Julius Caesar's get.
The Latin translation used by Shakespeare has no pejorative sense: There was
no distinction of familiar vs. formal in Classical Latin, and so no feeling of
(as the French have it) _tutoiement_ in the use of _tu_ towards an adult male.
--
Rich Alderson You know the sort of thing that you can find in any dictionary
of a strange language, and which so excites the amateur philo-
logists, itching to derive one tongue from another that they
know better: a word that is nearly the same in form and meaning
as the corresponding word in English, or Latin, or Hebrew, or
what not.
--J. R. R. Tolkien,
alde...@netcom.com _The Notion Club Papers_
Robert Clark
So far no-one has pointed out that 'brute' is the vocative form of
'Brutus', ie the case used when addressing someone. (pronounced broo-tay)
To the English-speaker's eye it looks like the word 'brute', which seems to
have led to some of the conjecture here.
RC
Dave Krug <nospamb...@capital.net> wrote in article
<6dnbgl$4q$1...@Usenet.Logical.NET>...
| The question was posed in humanities.lit.authors.shakespeare if
Julius
| Caesar's dying words to Brutus had some more forceful connotation than
| simply "And Thou?" It was mentioned that this expression might have been
| the equivalent to calling him (Brutus) a SOB.
|
kmast...@rocketmail.com
In article <6dnbgl$4q$1...@Usenet.Logical.NET>,
"Dave Krug" <nospamb...@capital.net> wrote:
>
> The question was posed in humanities.lit.authors.shakespeare if Julius
> Caesar's dying words to Brutus had some more forceful connotation than
> simply "And Thou?" It was mentioned that this expression might have been
> the equivalent to calling him (Brutus) a SOB.
It might depend on what you mean by "connotation". I've always taken the force
of the expression to come from its simplicity: -- after all, the context is
striking -- this is the thought that sticks most in Caesar's dying mind --,
the phrase is brief and pointed, you have ellipsis of the verb, and it's the
intonation rather than an interrogative word or the word order that makes it a
question instead of a statement. Another point is that "et" can be equivalent
to the more emphatic "also" as well as "and".
But by itself -- if you trust my authority -- what emotion, if any, you
*have to* read into the words is not so obvious. I don't see why it need
only or dominantly mean "Brutus, you're an SOB", although that might be part
of it. The dominant feeling, for instance, could simply be disappointment;
even anger isn't unavoidable.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Lee Rudolph
alde...@netcom9.netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III) writes:
>Caesar's reported words were actually Greek, rather than Latin: _kai su, pais?_
>"And thou, child/son?"
I remembered it differently, as "kai su, teknon?"; an AltaVista web
search finds two instances of that, one of "Kai su Tecktonen?" (wozzat?),
and no instance of "kai su" near "pais". Though I'm no classicist, I
wonder if you've remembered the meaning of the Greek correctly but
rendered it back into Greek wrongly.
Lee Rudolph
Ross Howard
>Hi, I've been browsing for a while and thought I'd jump in on this one.
>As I recall, my highschool Latin teacher said that "Et tu, Brute" was
>actually
>short for "Etiam tu, Brute" which means "Even you, Brutus".
Thus proving that Caesar was an early adherent of the Gogginite school
of abbreviation non-stopping -- were it not for this early example of
abbreviatory goggination, we'd write it "Et. tu, Brute".
cf When Irish ides are smiling....
Stan Brown
In article <ALDERSON.9...@netcom9.netcom.com>,
>
>Caesar's reported words were actually Greek, rather than Latin: _kai su, pais?_
As I recall from Greek class, it was "kai su, teknon". It's almost 30
years ago, so I could be wrong, and I've no idea where to look it up.
Can anyone provide a cite?
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA
http://www.concentric.net/%7eBrownsta/
Please do not send me mail with a false return address.
Thomas Scharle
In article <35054251...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, s.m...@ix.netcom.com (Polar) writes:
|> On Sat, 7 Mar 1998 21:31:59 -0500, brow...@concentric.net (Stan
|> Brown) wrote:
|>
|> >In article <ALDERSON.9...@netcom9.netcom.com>,
|> >alde...@netcom9.netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III) wrote:
|> >>
|> >>Caesar's reported words were actually Greek, rather than Latin: _kai su, pais?_
|>
|>
|> WHY would he have been speaking Greek to a fellow Roman?
|> Where did this idea come from? Is it historically based?
|>
|> While I'm at it, how is "Et tu, Brute" pronounced?
|>
|> "Brut" like the champagne?
|>
|> or "Brutay"?
From the FAQ for alt.usage.english:
Plutarch wrote two accounts in Greek of Caesar's crossing the
Rubicon. Both times, he gives the words as _Anerriphtho: kubos_ =
"Let the die be cast." In one of the accounts (Life of Pompey), he
says that Caesar actually uttered the words in Greek; in the other
(Life of Caesar), he suggests that the words were already a proverb
before Caesar uttered them.
My memory tells me that the "kai su teknon" story also comes
from Plutarch.
--
Tom Scharle scha...@nd.edu "standard disclaimer"
Terry Ross
On Sat, 7 Mar 1998, Stan Brown wrote:
> In article <ALDERSON.9...@netcom9.netcom.com>,
> alde...@netcom9.netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III) wrote:
> >
> >Caesar's reported words were actually Greek, rather than Latin: _kai su, pais?_
>
> As I recall from Greek class, it was "kai su, teknon". It's almost 30
> years ago, so I could be wrong, and I've no idea where to look it up.
>
> Can anyone provide a cite?
Suetonius, *The Twelve Caesars*, "Julius Caesar" 82.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Terry Ross Visit the SHAKESPEARE AUTHORSHIP home page
http://www.bcpl.lib.md.us/~tross/ws/will.html
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stan Brown
>
>WHY would he have been speaking Greek to a fellow Roman?
>Where did this idea come from? Is it historically based?
All educated Romans in the later Republican spoke Greek, since their
education came from Greek slaves. Greek was the language of literature;
Latin the language of law, administration, and the army.
Avi Jacobson
[Posting from home on a sunny East Bay Sunday morning:]
Polar <s.m...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
<35054251...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...
> While I'm at it, how is "Et tu, Brute" pronounced?
>
> "Brut" like the champagne?
>
> or "Brutay"?
Latin being dead, it has no living native speakers. Even when it was a
living language, its pronunciation evolved in its lifetime. In the
Catholic church, Latin is pronounced pretty much like Italian (except in
German- and French-speaking countries, where the rules are different).
Elsewhere, it tends to follow the phonology of the speaker's native
language. (That's why "habeus corpus" is pronounced the way it is by
English speakers.)
If it's authenticity you're after, you can safely pronounce this sentence
as though it were Spanish. And the vowel on the end of "Brute" would be
[E]; =NOT= [Ej} as Polar has indicated.
Ave,
Avi
--
Avi Jacobson, email: av...@pacbell.net | When an idea is
| wanting, a word
| can always be found
| to take its place.
| -- Goethe
Robert Stonehouse
s.m...@ix.netcom.com (Polar) wrote:
>On Sun, 8 Mar 1998 09:29:35 -0500, Terry Ross
><tr...@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 7 Mar 1998, Stan Brown wrote:
>>
>>> In article <ALDERSON.9...@netcom9.netcom.com>,
>>> alde...@netcom9.netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III) wrote:
>>> >
>>> >Caesar's reported words were actually Greek, rather than Latin: _kai su, pais?_
>>>
>>> As I recall from Greek class, it was "kai su, teknon". It's almost 30
>>> years ago, so I could be wrong, and I've no idea where to look it up.
>>>
>>> Can anyone provide a cite?
>>
>>Suetonius, *The Twelve Caesars*, "Julius Caesar" 82.
>
>Damn! The minute I give something to the library book sale because I
>haven't opened it in [censored] years...! Now I have to schlep up
>there to verify.
>
>But surely not every word Suentonius wrote is true. Or even half of
>them? Or one-third? Or? (Still they made yummy sources for Robert
>Graves...)
>
>Any other cites?
>
Suetonius is a powerful witness, because he was a Latin writer. The
only reason for him to go into Greek at this point was that he
thought it was necessary in order to get it right.
ew...@bcs.org.uk
Terry Ross
Suetonius says (I'm quoting the Graves translation), "Caesar did not utter
a sound after Casca's blow had drawn a groan from him; though some say
that when he saw Marcus Brutus about to deliver the second blow, he
reproached him in Greek with "You, too, my son?" Suetonius seems to have
believed that Caesar probably said nothing, but he passes on the minority
opinion that he said to Brutus, "kai tu, teknon."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Terry Ross Visit the SHAKESPEARE AUTHORSHIP home page
http://www.bcpl.lib.md.us/~tross/ws/will.html
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stan Brown
In article <6dv9qu$fqe$1...@comet.tomco.net>, carey...@tomco.net (John
Starr) wrote:
>In alt.usage.english, Stan Brown <brow...@concentric.net> wrote:
>> All educated Romans in the later Republican spoke Greek, since their
>> education came from Greek slaves. Greek was the language of literature;
>> Latin the language of law, administration, and the army.
>
No, they spoke. In fact, they were smart enough to speak Latin, which
eludes most Americans today!
But joking aside, _what_ doesn't wash? What specifically do you disagree
with?
Stan Brown
>(That's why "habeus corpus" is pronounced the way it is by
>English speakers.)
Funny, I always thought the writ was "habeas corpus".
But then, I think things get done "ad nauseam" rather than the popular
"ad nauseum".
Aaron J. Dinkin
>
> |> >In article <ALDERSON.9...@netcom9.netcom.com>,
> |> >alde...@netcom9.netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III) wrote:
> |> >>
> |> >>Caesar's reported words were actually Greek, rather than Latin: _kai su,
> |> >>pais?_
> |>
> |>
> |> WHY would he have been speaking Greek to a fellow Roman?
> |> Where did this idea come from? Is it historically based?
Someone else mentioned that it's in Plutarch. My guess as to why he said it
in Greek is merely that Greek was to Latin much as French is to English (or
perhaps was a century ago): it was the foreign language that all cultured,
upper-class Romans knew. Addressing Brutus in Greek probably expanded on
the literal meaning of "even you, my son?": "even you, my son, who are a
cultured Roman (who ought not to assassinate leaders) and whom I have
always respected?"
That's why Shakespeare used Latin for that line: Latin was to the English
of Shakespeare's day as Greek was to Caesar's Latin. Or picture a dying
English nobleman of the 19th century saying, "Tu aussi, mon fils?"
> |> While I'm at it, how is "Et tu, Brute" pronounced?
> |>
> |> "Brut" like the champagne?
> |>
> |> or "Brutay"?
Closer to "Brutay": /et tu: bru:te/, where /r/ represents whatever phoneme
the letter <R> meant to the Romans. Stress, non-phonemic in Latin, would
have been on "Bru-".
-Aaron J. Dinkin
Dr. Whom
Julia
Stan Brown <brow...@concentric.net> doth say:
> s.m...@ix.netcom.com (Polar) wrote:
>>
>>WHY would he have been speaking Greek to a fellow Roman?
>>Where did this idea come from? Is it historically based?
>
>education came from Greek slaves. Greek was the language of literature;
>Latin the language of law, administration, and the army.
>
such numbers as to form the basis of the Roman education system? Were
they, and this is a serious question, captured by pirates and sold off
into slavery? The reason I make this suggestion is that I read
somewhere that in the 'Dark Ages' or early Medieval period Italian
peasants deserted the coastal plains, which I think they continued to
cultivate, and built their villages on hilltops, to avoid capture and
being sold into slavery to the Turks.
However, the educated don't normally live in isolated villages. What
other explanation is there?
--
Julia
Steinar Midtskogen
[Polar]
> But surely not every word Suentonius wrote is true. Or even half of
> them? Or one-third? Or? (Still they made yummy sources for Robert
> Graves...)
He writes: Atque ita tribus et viginti plagis confossus est uno modo
ad primum ictum gemitu sine voce edito, etsi tradiderunt quidam Marco
Bruto irruenti dixisse: "kai sy, teknon!".
... uno modo ad primum ictum sine voce edito etsi tradiderunt quidam
Marco Bruto irruenti dixisse: ... = ... only one groan at the first
strike not having uttered a word, though some have said that, when
Markus Brutus attacked, Caesar said to him: ...
Not even Suentonius knew.
--
Steinar Midtskogen, stud.scient.; http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~steinarm/
"Mm" inquit "velim scire quomodo nomen cuiusdam plicae mutare possim."
Perii... Manedum, hic est dies mercedis, annon? Bono ergo animo sum.
"-Scribenda tibi sunt 'rm' et nomen plicae." "Gratias!" "-Libenter." --BOFH
Julia
Polar <s.m...@ix.netcom.com> doth say:
>>> >
>>> >Caesar's reported words were actually Greek, rather than Latin:
>>> > _kai su, pais?_
>>>
>>> years ago, so I could be wrong, and I've no idea where to look it up.
>>>
>>> Can anyone provide a cite?
>>
>>Suetonius, *The Twelve Caesars*, "Julius Caesar" 82.
>
>Damn! The minute I give something to the library book sale because I
>haven't opened it in [censored] years...! Now I have to schlep up
>there to verify.
>
might be related to our 'slog', to walk or work doggedly.
Incidentally, the word next to 'slog' in my dictionary is
'slogan', which I was surprised to see defined:
"slogan, n. Highland war-cry: party cry, watchword, motto; short
catchy phrase used in advertising [f. Gael. sluagh-ghairm
(sluagh = host, gairm = outcry)]"
We must surely owe its use to Sir Walter Scott - "Great Scott!",
or was it brought into the English language a trophy from the
battle of Culloden? That grizzly image seems a world away from
the cheerful 'Only the best' ASDA TV slogan.
--
Julia
Caius Marcius
> Stan Brown <brow...@concentric.net> writes:
>> s.m...@ix.netcom.com (Polar) wrote:
>>>
>>>WHY would he have been speaking Greek to a fellow Roman?
>>>Where did this idea come from? Is it historically based?
>>
>>All educated Romans in the later Republican spoke Greek, since their
>>education came from Greek slaves. Greek was the language of
literature;
>>Latin the language of law, administration, and the army.
That Greek was the language of the educated classes - but still not
necessarily understood by everyone - seems to be the point of the
following scene from Julius Caesar:
CASSIUS
Did Cicero say any thing?
CASCA
Ay, he spoke Greek.
CASSIUS
To what effect?
CASCA
Nay, an I tell you that, Ill ne'er look you i' the
face again: but those that understood him smiled at
one another and shook their heads; but, for mine own
part, it was Greek to me. I could tell you more
news too: Marullus and Flavius, for pulling scarfs
off Caesar's images, are put to silence. Fare you
well. There was more foolery yet, if I could
remember it.
I,ii.
The expression "It was all Greek to me" seems to be derived from
Casca's speech.
The New Testament was also written in Greek in order to ensure that it
would be more widely read (although Greek would have been the second
tongue to all of the NT authors).
- CMC
Pierre Jelenc
Aaron J. Dinkin <adi...@commschool.org> writes:
> That's why Shakespeare used Latin for that line: Latin was to the English
> of Shakespeare's day as Greek was to Caesar's Latin. Or picture a dying
> English nobleman of the 19th century saying, "Tu aussi, mon fils?"
Toi aussi...
Donna Richoux
Julia <J...@mistylaw.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Interesting word 'schlep'. Is it German? Dutch?
German schleppen, Yiddish shlep(pen?), Dutch slepen. - to drag, to pull
something behind you.
>Sounds as if it
> might be related to our 'slog', to walk or work doggedly.
Since you have done your own dictionary look-up, I will do mine.
Partridge's "Origins" traces "slog" to "to slug, to hit hard" and before
that a related group of Germanic words from which we also get "to slay."
No connection to "shlep."
What are related to shlepm according to Partrdige, are: sleigh, sled,
sledge, slide, and slither. Dragging heavy loads over snow and ice, what
a Northern concept.
Note that the modern Dutch spelling doesn't show an "sh" sound in
"slepen." I haven't figured out any regional, geographical, and class
nuances, but it is common for Dutch people to say "sh" for "s" and "zh"
for "z." Thus the famous old Zuider Zee is "Zhowder Zhay." This exchange
of sounds carries over to their English, too. The other day, a bank
employee with whom I was dealing (in English) said proudly, "I shaved
everything."
[snip discussion of "slogan"]
>
> We must surely
Ooh -- a friendly tip to a newcomer - that's strong language around
here. You might want to save it for when you *are* sure.
>owe its use to Sir Walter Scott - "Great Scott!",
That phrase has been discussed here, and I don't think Sir Walter was
credited as the eponymous Scott. You can search the archives at
www.dejanews.com if you are curious.
> or was it brought into the English language a trophy from the
> battle of Culloden? That grizzly image seems a world away from
> the cheerful 'Only the best' ASDA TV slogan.
I suppose, but military terms and fighting analogies get adapted to all
sorts of peacetime uses. Look at the "campaign" in "ad campaign."
"Slogan" is just so old we've forgotten its roots.
Best wishes --- Donna Richoux
Brian J Goggin
On 9 Mar 1998 16:01:06 GMT, tr...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux) wrote:
>Julia <J...@mistylaw.demon.co.uk> wrote:
[...]
>[snip discussion of "slogan"]
>>
>> We must surely
>
>Ooh -- a friendly tip to a newcomer - that's strong language around
>here. You might want to save it for when you *are* sure.
>
>>owe its use to Sir Walter Scott - "Great Scott!",
>
>That phrase has been discussed here, and I don't think Sir Walter was
>credited as the eponymous Scott. You can search the archives at
>www.dejanews.com if you are curious.
>
>> or was it brought into the English language a trophy from the
>> battle of Culloden? That grizzly image seems a world away from
>> the cheerful 'Only the best' ASDA TV slogan.
===OED=====
slogan (________). Forms: _. 6 slogorne, 6_7 sloggorne, sluggorn(e, 8
slugorn, slogurn; 6 sloghorne, 6, 8 slughorne, 7, 9 slughorn. _. 8
slughon, 7_ slogan, 9 slogen.
[ad. Gael. sluagh-ghairm, f. sluagh host + gairm cry, shout.]
1. a. A war-cry or battle cry; spec. one of those formerly employed by
Scottish Highlanders or Borderers, or by the native Irish, usually
consisting of a personal surname or the name of a gathering-place.
_.1513 Douglas Æneid vii. xi. 87 The slogorne, ensen_e, or the wache
cry.
1536 Bellenden Cron. Scot. (1821) I. 59 That nane of thaim name thair
capitane with ony uthir sloggorne, bot with the auld name of that
tribe.
_1572 Knox Hist. Ref. Wks. 1846 I. 87 Great was the noyse_that was
heard, whill that everie man calles his awin sloghorne.
_1578 Lindesay (Pitscottie) Chron. Scot. (S.T.S.) II. 263 Thay hard
ane slughorne cryand on the gait in this maner _ane hammiltowne', _ane
hammiltowne'.
1680 Mackenzie Sci. Her. 97 Not unlike these Motto's are our
Slughorns, which are called Cris de guerre in France.
1683 Martine Reliq. Divi S. Andreæ (1797) 3 They_go about begging, and
use still to recite the sluggornes of most of the true ancient
surnames of Scotland, from old experience and observation.
1723 W. Buchanan Acc. Fam. Buchanan 165 The isle of Clareinch was the
slogurn or call of war, proper to the family of Buchanan.
1851 M. A. Denham Slogans N. Eng. 1 Occasionally, as in Scotland, the
name of the rendezvous was used as a Slughorn.
_.1680 Mackenzie Sci. Her. 97 The Name of Hume have for their Slughorn
(or Slogan, as our Southern Shires terme it) a Hume, a Hume.
1805 Scott Last Minstrel iv. xxvii, To heaven the Border slogan
rung,_The English war-cry answer'd wide.
1861 Goldw. Smith Irish Hist. 67 An Act_was passed to abolish the
words Crom-a-boo and Butler-a-boo, the Slogans of these two clans.
1879 Dixon Windsor III. 3 Edward had struck the Genoese,_Monmouth the
French to one great Slogan, that of St. George of England.
b. transf. The distinctive note, phrase, cry, etc. of any person or
body of persons.
1704 in Maidment Scott. Pasquils (1868) 384 Your slughons are
falsehood and plunder.
_1859 Macaulay Hist. Eng. xxv. V. 301 The popular slogans on both
sides were indefatigably repeated.
1880 Mrs. Whitney Odd or Even? xiv, _Duty, God, immortality'---the
very slogan of the pulpit.
1887 A. Lang Bks. & Bookmen 114 Printers and authors had their emblems
and their private literary slogans.
1922 Times 20 June 7/4 _Post early.' New P.O. slogan on letters.
1928 Publishers' Weekly 9 June 2386 As an advertising man, Mr. Calkins
believes the slogan _a cent a copy to sell the art of reading', a
great and revolutionary one.
1951 H. Arendt Burden of Our Time i. ii. 38 Antisemitic slogans were
highly effective in mobilizing large strata of the population.
1958 P. H. Gibbs Curtains of Yesterday xix. 157 On the other side [of
an ancient gateway] with big letters deeply carved was the new slogan
of Lenin's Russia. _Religion is the Opium of the People.'
1968 V. S. Pritchett Cab at Door ix. 163 All sects have their jargon
and Father, eager as an advertising man is for slogans, had picked
them all up and lived by them.
1971 H. Macmillan Riding the Storm xv. 478 The somewhat disingenuous
slogan of _ban the bomb'.
1972 F. Fitzgerald Fire in Lake viii. 277 Thousands of soldiers and
civil servants marched with the dock workers shouting anti-government
and occasionally anti-American slogans.
1980 R. Scruton Meaning of Conservatism iii. 59 One particular slogan
will later occupy our attention---_equality of opportunity'.
===ends=====
>I suppose, but military terms and fighting analogies get adapted to all
>sorts of peacetime uses. Look at the "campaign" in "ad campaign."
>"Slogan" is just so old we've forgotten its roots.
bjg
a1a5...@bc.sympatico.ca
>Someone else mentioned that it's in Plutarch. My guess as to why he said it
>in Greek is merely that Greek was to Latin much as French is to English (or
>perhaps was a century ago): it was the foreign language that all cultured,
>upper-class Romans knew. Addressing Brutus in Greek probably expanded on
>the literal meaning of "even you, my son?": "even you, my son, who are a
>cultured Roman (who ought not to assassinate leaders) and whom I have
>always respected?"
>
>That's why Shakespeare used Latin for that line: Latin was to the English
>of Shakespeare's day as Greek was to Caesar's Latin. Or picture a dying
>English nobleman of the 19th century saying, "Tu aussi, mon fils?"
You have touched the needle to it, toi.
Still, the English nobleman would more likely have said: "But Bruttie,
your father and I were at Eton together!" and thereby damned the rest
of the disappointed and parvenu war-profiteers.
Truly Donovan
On Mon, 9 Mar 1998 09:58:59 +0000, Julia <J...@mistylaw.demon.co.uk>
wrote:
>Interesting word 'schlep'. Is it German? Dutch?
It may be German, it may be Dutch as well. What it certainly is is
Yiddish.
--
Truly Donovan
reply to truly at lunemere dot com
Simon R. Hughes
Thus Spake brow...@concentric.net (Stan Brown):
> In article <6dv9qu$fqe$1...@comet.tomco.net>, carey...@tomco.net (John
> Starr) wrote:
> >In alt.usage.english, Stan Brown <brow...@concentric.net> wrote:
> >> All educated Romans in the later Republican spoke Greek, since their
> >> education came from Greek slaves. Greek was the language of literature;
> >> Latin the language of law, administration, and the army.
> >
> >That doesn't wash. Presumably, common Romans were dumb?
>
> No, they spoke. In fact, they were smart enough to speak Latin, which
> eludes most Americans today!
Common Romans were a lot of plebeians.
And all Romans spoke a vulgar dialect of Italian.
--
Simon R. Hughes
mailto:shu...@geocities.com
... limping back to the barracades on an old and slow 486 and Free Agent.
Aaron J. Dinkin
In article <rpSElAAj...@mistylaw.demon.co.uk>, Julia
<J...@mistylaw.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Polar <s.m...@ix.netcom.com> doth say:
>
> >Damn! The minute I give something to the library book sale because I
> >haven't opened it in [censored] years...! Now I have to schlep up
> >there to verify.
> >
> Interesting word 'schlep'. Is it German? Dutch? Sounds as if it
> might be related to our 'slog', to walk or work doggedly.
Its primary meaning is "drag" or "lug", with the secondary meaning of "drag
oneself", and it's from Yiddish. I can't find my copy of _Hooray for
Yiddish_ by Leo Rosten, which goes into more detail on the etymology.
Jon Robert Crofoot
carey...@tomco.net (John Starr) wrote:
>In alt.usage.english, Stan Brown <brow...@concentric.net> wrote:
>
>> All educated Romans in the later Republican spoke Greek, since their
>> education came from Greek slaves. Greek was the language of literature;
>> Latin the language of law, administration, and the army.
>
>
>That doesn't wash. Presumably, common Romans were dumb?
>
Of course it washes. It wasn't all that long ago that,
for native English-speakers, Latin was the language of
education, German the language of science, and French the
language of diplomacy.
Constantinos Papapanagiotou
Maybe you'd like the opinion of a Greek on this subject...!
Well, et tu Brute is "kai su teknon Broute", that is "and you son Brute".
I agree that it is pronounced as Brutay with the stress on "Bru-".
This phrase is still used sometimes in Greek. With it we express our surprise when
someone, especially close to us (maybe a very close friend), or someone beyond
suspicion does something bad to us.
Costas Papapanagiotou
pa...@geocities.com
Mike Page
On Fri, 06 Mar 1998 05:10:23 GMT, rho...@mx7.redestb.es (Ross Howard)
wrote:
>On Thu, 05 Mar 1998 23:38:19 -0500, David Malecki
><david....@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>>Hi, I've been browsing for a while and thought I'd jump in on this one.
>>As I recall, my highschool Latin teacher said that "Et tu, Brute" was
>>actually
>>short for "Etiam tu, Brute" which means "Even you, Brutus".
>
>Thus proving that Caesar was an early adherent of the Gogginite school
>of abbreviation non-stopping -- were it not for this early example of
>abbreviatory goggination, we'd write it "Et. tu, Brute".
>
Caesar wasn't speaking Latin or Greek. He was in fact an early victim
of e-coli food poisoning. The Senators were protesting about the
importation of British beef into Rome and were brandishing cuts of
meat at him. In history this has been shifted first from steaks to
stakes and from stakes to daggers. At that moment, the crisis came
upon him and an anxious Brutus said 'You haven't eaten any of those
steaks, have you?' To which Caesar replied 'Ate two, Brute'.
Mike Page
Let the ape escape for e-mail
Lee Lester
> Interesting word 'schlep'. Is it German? Dutch? Sounds as if it
> might be related to our 'slog', to walk or work doggedly.
The OED gives the origin as German and Yiddish.
Stan Brown
In article <adinkin-ya0231800...@news.nii.net>,
adi...@commschool.org (Aaron J. Dinkin) seems to have written:
>
>Its primary meaning is "drag" or "lug", with the secondary meaning of "drag
>oneself", and it's from Yiddish. I can't find my copy of _Hooray for
>Yiddish_ by Leo Rosten, which goes into more detail on the etymology.
Is this a different book from his /The Joys of Yiddish/, or is HfY the
title of the UK edition?
Aaron J. Dinkin
In article <MPG.f71156ea...@news.concentric.net>,
brow...@concentric.net (Stan Brown) wrote:
> In article <adinkin-ya0231800...@news.nii.net>,
> adi...@commschool.org (Aaron J. Dinkin) seems to have written:
> >
> >Its primary meaning is "drag" or "lug", with the secondary meaning of "drag
> >oneself", and it's from Yiddish. I can't find my copy of _Hooray for
> >Yiddish_ by Leo Rosten, which goes into more detail on the etymology.
>
> Is this a different book from his /The Joys of Yiddish/, or is HfY the
> title of the UK edition?
Rosten wrote three different lexicons of Yiddishp-in-English: _The Joys of
Yiddish_, _Hooray for Yiddish_, and (if memory serves) _Hooray for
Yinglish_. The second of these is the one I own, or thought I owned, a copy
of.
Greybeard
The proper title of the last is _The Joys of Yinglish_.
Regards,
Greybeard