Whom does 'fat lady' refers in "It's not over till the fat lady sings" ??
qazmlp
Thanks!
John Seeliger
news:db9bbf31.02100...@posting.google.com...
> Who is the 'fat lady' in the expression "It's not over till the fat lady
sings" ?
The fat lady in the opera. The opera isn't over until the fat lady sings.
This expression is used about sporting events (ex. football) and political
races to say that the race/game is not over until the result is official.
--
John Seeliger Limited but increasing content
jsee...@yahoo.com <http://www.freewebz.com/hudathunkett/>
jsee...@aaahawk.com
Wayne Leman
sings" ?
I've assumed that the expression is a stereotype that comes from watching
operas where people get the impression that a fat lady is often the last
person to sing. But this may just be a folk etymology. It would be safer to
check in a book that gives the source of expressions like this.
Wayne
-----
Wayne Leman
http://committed.to/fieldtesting
>
> Thanks!
Jitze Couperus
wrote:
>Who is the 'fat lady' in the expression "It's not over till the fat lady sings" ?
>
>Thanks!
Brunhilda. See
http://www.bartleby.com/65/br/Brunhilda.html
Jitze
Gary Vellenzer
says...
>
> "qazmlp" <qazml...@rediffmail.com> wrote in message
> news:db9bbf31.02100...@posting.google.com...
> > Who is the 'fat lady' in the expression "It's not over till the fat lady
> sings" ?
>
> I've assumed that the expression is a stereotype that comes from watching
> operas where people get the impression that a fat lady is often the last
> person to sing. But this may just be a folk etymology. It would be safer to
> check in a book that gives the source of expressions like this.
>
lady dies". If you've ever seen Traviata you'll know the extended death
scene where the consumptive heroine alternates between exhaustion and
lively singing. You think she's finally dead, only to have her force
herself, by pure will power, to stay alive and sing some more. Tjhis
goes on for some time until she finally does expire.
Gary
Robert Lieblich
>
> "qazmlp" <qazml...@rediffmail.com> wrote in message
> news:db9bbf31.02100...@posting.google.com...
> > Who is the 'fat lady' in the expression "It's not over till the fat lady
> sings" ?
>
> I've assumed that the expression is a stereotype that comes from watching
> operas where people get the impression that a fat lady is often the last
> person to sing. But this may just be a folk etymology. It would be safer to
> check in a book that gives the source of expressions like this.
If you go to Google Groups and search for a posting by me dated 23
NOV 1997, you'll learn that it is credited to Dan Cook, a Texas
sportswriter, and was popularized by Dick Motta, coach of the
Washington Bullets, during the year the Bullets won their first,
last, and only NBA championship. Working the thread will give you
additional info.
--
Bob Lieblich
The Bullets are now the Wizards. Political correctness, dontcha
know
Donna Richoux
> Who is the 'fat lady' in the expression "It's not over till the fat lady
sings" ?
This is a question we get quite often at a.u.e, but there is no entry
for the FAQ. Last time, I saved the pertinent discussion, and I've put
it together in the summary below.
PROPOSED:
--------------------------------------
It's not over until the fat lady sings
--------------------------------------
Although this saying was popularized in 1975 by San Antonio, Tx, sports
editor Dan Cook, and later in the season by the Washington Bullets
basketball coach Dick Motta, it has older origins. Bartlett's Quotations
(1992) finds in "Southern Words and Sayings" [F.R. and C.R. Smith, 1976]
lists as an old saying, `Church ain't out till the fat lady sings.'
(The above facts are taken from Nigel Rees, Volume 2, Number 1, January
1993 issue of The "Quote... Unquote" Newsletter.)
Jitze Couperous, an a.u.e participant, also remembers hearing a similar
proverb in the 1940s, an old Friesian/Dutch saying of his father's,
roughly ""Kerk is pas uit als de dikke tante haar zangboek neer legt".
Roughly translated, "Church is only finished when the fat lady puts her
hymnal down." Jitze's father was born in 1905 and left the Netherlands
as a teenager around 1920.
So, if anything, the original fat lady appeared to be a member of a
church congregation.
-----------------------------------------------
Suggestions and corrections are welcome.
Best -- Donna Richoux
Irwell
Ditto for Madame Butterfly and Mimi in 'La Boheme'
Stephen Toogood
<couperu...@znet.com> writes
immolation scene"?
Doesn't quite have the same ring to it.
--
Stephen Toogood
Garry J. Vass
sings" ?
>
There is an article on the etymology of the "fat lady" at
Don Aitken
wrote:
>PROPOSED: [FAQ entry]
>Bartlett's Quotations
>(1992) finds in "Southern Words and Sayings" [F.R. and C.R. Smith, 1976]
>lists as an old saying, `Church ain't out till the fat lady sings.'
This sentence seems to have got a bit mangled. It would be grammatical
with "listed as", but is still very awkward. I would go for:
Barlett's Quotations (1992) finds, listed as an old saying, in
"Southern Words and Sayings" [F.R. and C.R. Smith, 1976],'Church ain't
out till the fat lady sings.'
--
Don Aitken
Apteryx
news:3da14bc4....@sd.znet.com...
has around 5 minutes to run, and it is Hagen who has the last line - his way
too belated advice to the audience to stay away from The Ring.
--
Apteryx
"My advice to you is get married: if you find a good wife you'll be happy;
if not, you'll become a philosopher" Socrates
Lars Eighner
lovely and talented Apteryx broadcast on alt.usage.english:
> But Gotterdammerung isn't over even when that fat lady has sung. It still
> has around 5 minutes to run, and it is Hagen who has the last line - his way
> too belated advice to the audience to stay away from The Ring.
Anna Russell, is that you?
--
Lars Eighner -finger for geek code- eig...@io.com http://www.io.com/~eighner/
Let deeds match words. --Platus * * * Let words match deeds --Lars
Robert Lieblich
>
> In our last episode, <mcpo9.4715$Os6.6...@news.xtra.co.nz>, the
> lovely and talented Apteryx broadcast on alt.usage.english:
>
> > But Gotterdammerung isn't over even when that fat lady has sung. It still
> > has around 5 minutes to run, and it is Hagen who has the last line - his way
> > too belated advice to the audience to stay away from The Ring.
>
> Anna Russell, is that you?
I'm not making this up, you know.
--
Anna R. (channeled by Bob L.)
John Smith
>
> Who is the 'fat lady' in the expression "It's not over till the fat lady sings" ?
Wagnerian Opera singer Kirsten Flagstad (1895-1962). She was a celebrity
on radio, and had her picture in the magazines, in the 40s and early 50s
when the pop iconography that ultimately generated the expession was
crystalizing.
\\P. Schultz
Apteryx
news:slrnaq49aq....@dumpster.io.com...
> In our last episode, <mcpo9.4715$Os6.6...@news.xtra.co.nz>, the
> lovely and talented Apteryx broadcast on alt.usage.english:
>
> > But Gotterdammerung isn't over even when that fat lady has sung. It
still
> > has around 5 minutes to run, and it is Hagen who has the last line - his
way
> > too belated advice to the audience to stay away from The Ring.
>
> Anna Russell, is that you?
>
Some of you guys have way too long a memory. A Google search reveals that a
1996 incarnation of this same thread had a guy referring to the
Gotterdamerung connection, and someone responding with a reference to Anna
Russell who evidently even at that time had a reputation as something of a
Wagner summeriser. I am obviously in some respects a kindred spirit, as I
do recall undertaking (and performing) to summarise the story of The Ring to
some of my work colleagues in the course of a 10 minute coffee break. I
don't remember exactly when that was, but it must have been long enough ago
that there were still coffee breaks.
Lars Eighner
<bCvo9.4862$Os6.6...@news.xtra.co.nz>,
broadcast on alt.usage.english:
> Some of you guys have way too long a memory. A Google search reveals that a
> 1996 incarnation of this same thread had a guy referring to the
> Gotterdamerung connection, and someone responding with a reference to Anna
> Russell who evidently even at that time had a reputation as something of a
> Wagner summeriser. I am obviously in some respects a kindred spirit, as I
> do recall undertaking (and performing) to summarise the story of The Ring to
> some of my work colleagues in the course of a 10 minute coffee break. I
> don't remember exactly when that was, but it must have been long enough ago
> that there were still coffee breaks.
Pity you don't know her. She had a special fondness for the
antipodes, and even took up residence in that rather largish
land mass to your left for some 8 or 9 years.
--
Lars Eighner -finger for geek code- eig...@io.com http://www.io.com/~eighner/
Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity. --Horace Mann
Lars Eighner
<slrnaq54oh....@dumpster.io.com>,
the lovely and talented Lars Eighner
broadcast on alt.usage.english:
> Pity you don't know her. She had
Whoops! She's living, according to the dead people server
(b. 1911). She's in Ontario, I believe.
> a special fondness for the
> antipodes, and even took up residence in that rather largish
> land mass to your left for some 8 or 9 years.
--
Lars Eighner -finger for geek code- eig...@io.com http://www.io.com/~eighner/
It is a most mortifying reflection for a man to consider what he has
done, compared to what he might have done. --Samuel Johnson
tomca...@yanospamhoo.com
> If you go to Google Groups and search for a posting by me dated 23
> NOV 1997, you'll learn that it is credited to Dan Cook, a Texas
> sportswriter, and was popularized by Dick Motta, coach of the
> Washington Bullets, during the year the Bullets won their first,
> last, and only NBA championship. Working the thread will give you
> additional info.
According to http://www.qunl.com/rees0003.html, Cook's quote was:
"The opera ain't over till the fat lady sings."
not "Church" or "The game".
Donna Richoux
Yes, a good point. But this could be explained by the folk process, the
natural changes that occur when people speak.
We have evidence (shown elsewhere) that "Church" was the earliest
(known) version. Perhaps, and now I'm speculating, people found they got
in trouble making light-hearted remarks about church in front of
strait-laced elders. So they substituted "It isn't over..." instead.
Then, continuing the speculating, perhaps this went on for long enough
(and in a purely oral tradition, it doesn't take long for things to
change) for people to make guessing substitutions as to what "It" was.
Opera had fat lady singers, so they put in "opera." Ballgames were
watched and talked about, so they humorously put in "ball game."
Fifty or a hundred years later, we come along and ask what the "real"
saying is. It's really a process.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
Ben Zimmer
As far as baseball usage goes, remember that by the time Dan Cook
began popularizing the expression in 1976, baseball already had "It
ain't over till it's over", attributed to the immortal Yogi Berra in
1973 (when he was managing the New York Mets, winners of a tight NL
pennant race that year). So it would have been quite easy to
substitute "...it's over" with "...the fat lady sings" in the baseball
context (in fact the "fat lady" version is often incorrectly
considered a Yogi-ism).