to burn the proverbial candle at both ends

[Lazypierrot]

I would like to know the meaning of the second-to-the-last sentence of the following passage: "Owls are thus often forced to burn the proverbial candle at both ends." "Owls" refers to "evening type people", while "larks" refers to "morning type people." I think "to burn the candle at both ends" means to work hard from early in the morning till late at night. I wonder what is intended to mean by "proverbial candle." Is it just that "to burn the candle at both ends" is a kind of proverb?

The engrained, un-level playing field of society’s work scheduling is strongly biased toward early start times that punish owls and favor larks. Although the situation is improving, standard employment schedules force owls into an unnatural sleep-wake rhythm. Consequently, job performance of owls as a whole is far less optimal in the mornings, and they are further prevented from expressing their true performance potential in the late afternoon and early evening as standard work hours end prior to its arrival. Most unfortunately, owls are more chronically sleep-deprived, having to wake up with the larks, but not being able to fall asleep until far later in the evening. Owls are thus often forced to burn the proverbial candle at both ends. Greater ill health caused by a lack of sleep therefore befalls owls, including higher rates of depression, anxiety, diabetes, cancer, heart attack, and stroke.


Cordially,

LP

[CDB]

On 2/25/2022 7:07 AM, Lazypierrot wrote:

> I would like to know the meaning of the second-to-the-last sentence
> of the following passage: "Owls are thus often forced to burn the
> proverbial candle at both ends." "Owls" refers to "evening type
> people", while "larks" refers to "morning type people." I think "to
> burn the candle at both ends" means to work hard from early in the
> morning till late at night. I wonder what is intended to mean by
> "proverbial candle." Is it just that "to burn the candle at both
> ends" is a kind of proverb?

Or at least a proverbial expression. But see below.

> The engrained, un-level playing field of society’s work scheduling
> is strongly biased toward early start times that punish owls and
> favor larks. Although the situation is improving, standard
> employment schedules force owls into an unnatural sleep-wake rhythm.
> Consequently, job performance of owls as a whole is far less optimal
> in the mornings, and they are further prevented from expressing
> their true performance potential in the late afternoon and early
> evening as standard work hours end prior to its arrival. Most
> unfortunately, owls are more chronically sleep-deprived, having to
> wake up with the larks, but not being able to fall asleep until far
> later in the evening. Owls are thus often forced to burn the
> proverbial candle at both ends. Greater ill health caused by a lack
> of sleep therefore befalls owls, including higher rates of
> depression, anxiety, diabetes, cancer, heart attack, and stroke.

I think in this case it means "use up their resources too quickly". The
context of working -hours leads to the image, but beyond that it is
probably a reference to a well-know poem by Edna St. Vincent Millay:

"My candle burns at both ends;
It will not last the night;
But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends—
It gives a lovely light!"

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Friday, February 25, 2022 at 8:43:31 AM UTC-5, CDB wrote:
> On 2/25/2022 7:07 AM, Lazypierrot wrote:

> > I would like to know the meaning of the second-to-the-last sentence
> > of the following passage: "Owls are thus often forced to burn the
> > proverbial candle at both ends." "Owls" refers to "evening type
> > people", while "larks" refers to "morning type people." I think "to
> > burn the candle at both ends" means to work hard from early in the
> > morning till late at night. I wonder what is intended to mean by
> > "proverbial candle." Is it just that "to burn the candle at both
> > ends" is a kind of proverb?
>
> Or at least a proverbial expression. But see below.

Difference?

> > The engrained, un-level playing field of society’s work scheduling
> > is strongly biased toward early start times that punish owls and
> > favor larks. Although the situation is improving, standard
> > employment schedules force owls into an unnatural sleep-wake rhythm.
> > Consequently, job performance of owls as a whole is far less optimal
> > in the mornings, and they are further prevented from expressing
> > their true performance potential in the late afternoon and early
> > evening as standard work hours end prior to its arrival. Most
> > unfortunately, owls are more chronically sleep-deprived, having to
> > wake up with the larks, but not being able to fall asleep until far
> > later in the evening. Owls are thus often forced to burn the
> > proverbial candle at both ends. Greater ill health caused by a lack
> > of sleep therefore befalls owls, including higher rates of
> > depression, anxiety, diabetes, cancer, heart attack, and stroke.
>
> I think in this case it means "use up their resources too quickly". The

I doubt it.

> context of working -hours leads to the image, but beyond that it is
> probably a reference to a well-know poem by Edna St. Vincent Millay:
>
> "My candle burns at both ends;
> It will not last the night;
> But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends—
> It gives a lovely light!"

Presumably this isn't an excerpt from either Patricia Cornwell or
Dick Francis, but does it really seem like the sort of thing that would
involve a subtle literary allusion, alongside the hackneyed word
"proverbial"? I don't know whether E.B. White added a tart comment
on the word to Strunk&White, but, Shirley, he would if he were doing
a new edition.

[CDB]

On 2/25/2022 9:56 AM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> CDB wrote:
>> Lazypierrot wrote:

>>> I would like to know the meaning of the second-to-the-last
>>> sentence of the following passage: "Owls are thus often forced to
>>> burn the proverbial candle at both ends." "Owls" refers to
>>> "evening type people", while "larks" refers to "morning type
>>> people." I think "to burn the candle at both ends" means to work
>>> hard from early in the morning till late at night. I wonder what
>>> is intended to mean by "proverbial candle." Is it just that "to
>>> burn the candle at both ends" is a kind of proverb?

>> Or at least a proverbial expression. But see below.

> Difference?

Directness of advice.

>>> The engrained, un-level playing field of society’s work
>>> scheduling is strongly biased toward early start times that
>>> punish owls and favor larks. Although the situation is improving,
>>> standard employment schedules force owls into an unnatural
>>> sleep-wake rhythm. Consequently, job performance of owls as a
>>> whole is far less optimal in the mornings, and they are further
>>> prevented from expressing their true performance potential in the
>>> late afternoon and early evening as standard work hours end prior
>>> to its arrival. Most unfortunately, owls are more chronically
>>> sleep-deprived, having to wake up with the larks, but not being
>>> able to fall asleep until far later in the evening. Owls are thus
>>> often forced to burn the proverbial candle at both ends. Greater
>>> ill health caused by a lack of sleep therefore befalls owls,
>>> including higher rates of depression, anxiety, diabetes, cancer,
>>> heart attack, and stroke.

>> I think in this case it means "use up their resources too quickly".
>> The

> I doubt it.

My opinion can beat up your opinion with both pinions tied behind its back.

In this case, my opinion is based on the practical example given.

>> context of working -hours leads to the image, but beyond that it
>> is probably a reference to a well-know poem by Edna St. Vincent
>> Millay:

>> "My candle burns at both ends; It will not last the night; But ah,
>> my foes, and oh, my friends— It gives a lovely light!"

> Presumably this isn't an excerpt from either Patricia Cornwell or
> Dick Francis, but does it really seem like the sort of thing that
> would involve a subtle literary allusion, alongside the hackneyed
> word "proverbial"? I don't know whether E.B. White added a tart
> comment on the word to Strunk&White, but, Shirley, he would if he
> were doing a new edition.

Too late to ask. I agree that that use of "proverbial" is not found in
serious prose, but in this case I believe, as I said, that the reader
was intended to think of some relevant use.

[occam]

On 25/02/2022 13:07, Lazypierrot wrote:
> I would like to know the meaning of the second-to-the-last sentence of the following passage: "Owls are thus often forced to burn the proverbial candle at both ends." "Owls" refers to "evening type people", while "larks" refers to "morning type people." I think "to burn the candle at both ends" means to work hard from early in the morning till late at night. I wonder what is intended to mean by "proverbial candle." Is it just that "to burn the candle at both ends" is a kind of proverb?
>
> The engrained, un-level playing field of society’s work scheduling is strongly biased toward early start times that punish owls and favor larks. Although the situation is improving, standard employment schedules force owls into an unnatural sleep-wake rhythm. Consequently, job performance of owls as a whole is far less optimal in the mornings, and they are further prevented from expressing their true performance potential in the late afternoon and early evening as standard work hours end prior to its arrival. Most unfortunately, owls are more chronically sleep-deprived, having to wake up with the larks, but not being able to fall asleep until far later in the evening. Owls are thus often forced to burn the proverbial candle at both ends. Greater ill health caused by a lack of sleep therefore befalls owls, including higher rates of depression, anxiety, diabetes, cancer, heart attack, and stroke.
>
>

'Proverbial' can mean idiomatic. 'Burning the candle at both ends" is
such an idiom, as is "when the shit hit the fan". When I looked up
alternative uses of 'proverbial', one I came across was "when the
proverbial hit the fan". A polite way of referring to the idiom without
mentioning 'shit'.

[Jerry Friedman]

She was using a well-known expression. The OED says,

P7. to light (also burn) the candle at both ends: to consume or waste in
two directions at once.

Cf. Cotgrave /‘Brusler la chandelle par lex deux bouts’./

1736 N. Bailey et al. /Dictionarium Britannicum/ (ed. 2) (at cited word)
The Candle burns at both Ends. Said when Husband and Wife are both
Spendthrifts.

1753 J. Hanway /Hist. Acct. Brit. Trade Caspian Sea/ II. xlii. 281 Apt
to light their candle at both ends; that is to say, they are apt to consume
too much, and work too little.

1848 C. Kingsley /Saint's Trag./ iii. i. 140 To double all your griefs, and
burn life's candle, As village gossips say, at either end.

I agree that it's not a proverb, but here's the OED again:

2. Used or referred to in a proverb or idiom; familiar or current as a proverb;
notorious, well known, especially so as to be stereotypical.

1571 A. Golding tr. J. Calvin /Psalmes of Dauid with Comm./ (xliv. 14) i.
f. 173/2 The name of them flew comonly abrode among proverbyall figures
[L. proverbiales figuras] in way of reproche.

1589 R. Greene /Menaphon sig. H3 That grounded tranquilitie, which
made it prouerbiall to the world, No heauen but Arcadie.

1711 R. Steele /Spectator/ No. 145. ⁋2 What Hudibras says of such
Disputants, which is so true, that it is almost Proverbial.

1792 H. H. Brackenridge /Mod. Chivalry/ I. i. 7 A Jack of all Trades, is
proverbial of a bungler; and we scarcely ever find any one who excels in
two parts of the same art.

1816 J. T. James /Jrnl. Tour/ ii. 105 The honesty of the Swedes is as
proverbial as that of the Highlanders of Scotland.

1832 F. A. Butler /Jrnl./ 31 Dec. (1835) II. 100 The Baltimore clippers are
proverbial for their elegance and fleetness.

1878 T. H. Huxley /Physiography/ (ed. 2) 45 The proverbial London fog
owes its density and darkness to the smoke.

1937 M. Allingham /Dancers in Mourning/ viii. 108 This morning..the
proverbial monkey-wrench had landed squarely in the middle of the brittle
machinery.

1976 J. Snow /Cricket Rebel/ 19 Having bowled a short ball at a batsman
during one match he sarcastically patted the pitch almost in front of my feet.
This is the proverbial red flag to a fast bowler.

1996 C. Bateman /Of Wee Sweetie Mice & Men/ xxv. 193 Matchitt and the
rest of the camp left under cover of darkness, using the proverbial tradesman's
entrance.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Jerry Friedman]

On Friday, February 25, 2022 at 5:07:07 AM UTC-7, Lazypierrot wrote:
> I would like to know the meaning of the second-to-the-last sentence of the following passage: "Owls are thus often forced to burn the proverbial candle at both ends." "Owls" refers to "evening type people", while "larks" refers to "morning type people." I think "to burn the candle at both ends" means to work hard from early in the morning till late at night. I wonder what is intended to mean by "proverbial candle." Is it just that "to burn the candle at both ends" is a kind of proverb?
>
> The engrained, un-level playing field of society’s work scheduling is strongly biased toward early start times that punish owls and favor larks. Although the situation is improving, standard employment schedules force owls into an unnatural sleep-wake rhythm. Consequently, job performance of owls as a whole is far less optimal in the mornings, and they are further prevented from expressing their true performance potential in the late afternoon and early evening as standard work hours end prior to its arrival. Most unfortunately, owls are more chronically sleep-deprived, having to wake up with the larks, but not being able to fall asleep until far later in the evening. Owls are thus often forced to burn the proverbial candle at both ends. Greater ill health caused by a lack of sleep therefore befalls owls, including higher rates of depression, anxiety, diabetes, cancer, heart attack, and stroke.

Am I right in thinking that the terminology of "owls" and "larks" is little
known in the U.S., where we say "morning people" and "night people"?

--
Jerry Friedman

[Peter T. Daniels]

I have the impression that this is from a pop psychology book and the
author is trying to introduce the avian terminology.

[Peter Moylan]

On 26/02/22 01:56, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> Presumably this isn't an excerpt from either Patricia Cornwell or
> Dick Francis, but does it really seem like the sort of thing that would
> involve a subtle literary allusion, alongside the hackneyed word
> "proverbial"? I don't know whether E.B. White added a tart comment
> on the word to Strunk&White, but, Shirley, he would if he were doing
> a new edition.

"Proverbial" has become so hackneyed that we now have expressions like
"a pain in the proverbial".

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

[bil...@shaw.ca]

Yes, I'd say so. I think that "owls" is fairly well known by North Americans, as "night owls".
"Larks" not so much, except for sonnet readers, whose memory banks cough up
"at break of day arising" at the mere mention.

bill

[David Kleinecke]

That "proverbial" IMO is a signal that the author will now stop the serious
stuff and insert some good old common sense. The fact that the serious
stuff is a big metaphor about larks and owls make "pop psychology" the
most likely context set.

[bil...@shaw.ca]

On Friday, February 25, 2022 at 1:10:07 PM UTC-8, Peter Moylan wrote:

Yes, but I have a quibble. For a number of years, I've been replacing that use
of "like" with "such as", since we're not talking about resemblances, but
providing an example.

bill

[Peter T. Daniels]

I think that euphemistic use of "proverbial" is more Brit than Am. We
might sometimes have "euphemism" there, or, a heritage of Watergate,
"[expletive deleted]" (which helped make Nixon a laughing-stock).

[Peter T. Daniels]

Oy, you've been taking CDB lessons! Do you also object to "such that"?

[bil...@shaw.ca]

No, I've been doing that sort of thing since my newspaper days, both as a writer
and a copy editor. "Like" where "such as" sould be is noticeably sloppy and, unfortunately,
it's everywhere these days, especially on the local TV news.

> Do you also object to "such that"?

I don't use it, but I haven't spent enough time thinking it through to preach against it.

bill

[CDB]

On 2/25/2022 11:40 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:

A "proverbial expression", as one might say. Maybe I could change "was"
to "may have been".

Thank you for the examples.

> P7. to light (also burn) the candle at both ends: to consume or waste
> in two directions at once.

Or, in the case adduced, to use up resources faster than is prudent.

[Peter T. Daniels]

This is a new prescriptivist point to me. The usual complaint was
simply about like-as-subordinating-conjunction (Winston tastes
good ..."). I don't see what could possibly be wrong with "like" to
introduce an example. Examples resemble, if you must!

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

The usage that I'm familiar with in BrE is:
https://www.lexico.com/definition/burn_the_candle_at_both_ends

burn the candle at both ends

phrase

Go to bed late and get up early.

‘we have been working long hours, burning the candle at both ends to
meet the needs of people’

‘I've been burning the candle at both ends since at least early
summer, and it's time to take a breather.’

‘In my mad attempt to get everything done I had been burning the
candle at both ends, staying up too late and getting up too early.’

{There are more examples}

>Cf. Cotgrave /‘Brusler la chandelle par lex deux bouts’./
>
>1736 N. Bailey et al. /Dictionarium Britannicum/ (ed. 2) (at cited word)
>The Candle burns at both Ends. Said when Husband and Wife are both
>Spendthrifts.
>
>1753 J. Hanway /Hist. Acct. Brit. Trade Caspian Sea/ II. xlii. 281 Apt
>to light their candle at both ends; that is to say, they are apt to consume
>too much, and work too little.
>
>1848 C. Kingsley /Saint's Trag./ iii. i. 140 To double all your griefs, and
>burn life's candle, As village gossips say, at either end.
>
>I agree that it's not a proverb, but here's the OED again:
>
>2. Used or referred to in a proverb or idiom; familiar or current as a proverb;
>notorious, well known, especially so as to be stereotypical.
>
>1571 A. Golding tr. J. Calvin /Psalmes of Dauid with Comm./ (xliv. 14) i.
>f. 173/2 The name of them flew comonly abrode among proverbyall figures
>[L. proverbiales figuras] in way of reproche.
>
>1589 R. Greene /Menaphon sig. H3 That grounded tranquilitie, which
>made it prouerbiall to the world, No heauen but Arcadie.
>

>1711 R. Steele /Spectator/ No. 145. ?2 What Hudibras says of such

>Disputants, which is so true, that it is almost Proverbial.
>
>1792 H. H. Brackenridge /Mod. Chivalry/ I. i. 7 A Jack of all Trades, is
>proverbial of a bungler; and we scarcely ever find any one who excels in
>two parts of the same art.
>
>1816 J. T. James /Jrnl. Tour/ ii. 105 The honesty of the Swedes is as
>proverbial as that of the Highlanders of Scotland.
>
>1832 F. A. Butler /Jrnl./ 31 Dec. (1835) II. 100 The Baltimore clippers are
>proverbial for their elegance and fleetness.
>
>1878 T. H. Huxley /Physiography/ (ed. 2) 45 The proverbial London fog
>owes its density and darkness to the smoke.
>
>1937 M. Allingham /Dancers in Mourning/ viii. 108 This morning..the
>proverbial monkey-wrench had landed squarely in the middle of the brittle
>machinery.
>
>1976 J. Snow /Cricket Rebel/ 19 Having bowled a short ball at a batsman
>during one match he sarcastically patted the pitch almost in front of my feet.
>This is the proverbial red flag to a fast bowler.
>
>1996 C. Bateman /Of Wee Sweetie Mice & Men/ xxv. 193 Matchitt and the
>rest of the camp left under cover of darkness, using the proverbial tradesman's
>entrance.

--

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)