Alveolar / Retroflex approximant?
Matt Davis
and the American R is a retroflex approximant. In lay man's terms, what is
the difference? To my untrained ear, the normal English R (not the posh
flapped R) and the American R sound pretty much the same, except the
American R sounds a bit longer sometimes (e.g. in the word America, it
sounds like A-merr-rrica). Apart from that, I can't hear a difference. Can
anyone explain it?
Cheers,
Matt
Purl Gurl
Enunciate "military" British style.
mill leh tree (tongue retracts, slightly downward)
Enunciate "military" American style.
mill leh tear ee (tongue extends, slightly upward)
Doing so, you will physically feel the difference
between alveolar and retroflex.
For those unfamiliar with this difference between
"enunciate" and "pronounce", enunciation is to
carefully and deliberately vocalize each sound unit
of a word as if individual words. Pronunciation is to
more quickly vocalize a word as a pseudo single unit.
Enunciation is slow and deliberate as teaching a child.
Pronunciation is common fast pace speech.
Purl Gurl
Don Phillipson
news:45e37951$1...@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com...
> I read on a couple of sites that the English R is an alveolar approximant,
> and the American R is a retroflex approximant. In lay man's terms, what is
> the difference?
There seem to be no laymen's terms. The source material
is sounds, viz. how people speak: and phonetic scholars require
a special jargon in order to cite these sounds; but being jargon
(there being no function in everyday English for what they define)
there may be no everyday term.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Purl Gurl
> Matt Davis wrote:
>> I read on a couple of sites that the English R is an alveolar approximant,
>> and the American R is a retroflex approximant. In lay man's terms, what is
>> the difference?
> There seem to be no laymen's terms. The source material
> is sounds, viz. how people speak: and phonetic scholars require
> a special jargon in order to cite these sounds; but being jargon
> (there being no function in everyday English for what they define)
> there may be no everyday term.
Yes, virtually impossible to attach terms to describe each function
of our complex speech abilities. Our physical attributes of speech
are much like speaker boxes. In theory, a speaker box is designed
according to a speaker; size, shape, frequency response and such.
Each of us enjoy a unique speaker box. Mother Nature does not equip
all with the same speaker box rather we adapt to whatever we have.
For any given word, each person will exhibit different physical
motions during pronunciation. No two people display precisely
the same physical attributes nor motions, very similar attributes
but none precisely the same; no one label fits all.
Reminds me of a nice boy with whom I attended school, many years back.
His tongue is too long for his mouth, genetically too long, a mess up.
This resulted in a severe speech impediment for him, which was later
corrected through surgery to shorten his tongue, by several inches.
Our "alveolar" and "retroflex" terms could not be applied to him, just
as those terms are difficult to describe.
While we girls love a boy like this, we have difficulties understanding
his whispered words, and have difficulties describing his unique condition,
least regarding his speech.
Purl Gurl
Matt Davis
news:b7OdnbAUHvST437Y...@giganews.com...
> Matt Davis wrote:
>
> > I read on a couple of sites that the English R is an alveolar
approximant,
> > and the American R is a retroflex approximant. In lay man's terms, what
is
> > the difference? To my untrained ear, the normal English R (not the posh
> > flapped R) and the American R sound pretty much the same, except the
> > American R sounds a bit longer sometimes (e.g. in the word America, it
> > sounds like A-merr-rrica). Apart from that, I can't hear a difference.
Can
> > anyone explain it?
>
> Enunciate "military" British style.
>
> mill leh tree (tongue retracts, slightly downward)
>
> Enunciate "military" American style.
>
> mill leh tear ee (tongue extends, slightly upward)
>
> Doing so, you will physically feel the difference
> between alveolar and retroflex.
OK, I've just done that, I think. It seems to me that an alveolar R is
quicker and comes out more easily. If I enunciate a retroflex R, it requires
considerably more effort, so why do people bother? Wouldn't alveolar Rs be
easier? Assuming I'm doing it right, of course.
To further illustrate my point, imagine an Englishman (non-posh, alveolar R)
saying "America" and an American saying "America". The R in the American
pronunciation seems to require more effort and sprawls over both adjoining
syllables, while the R in the English pronunciation just serves to join the
syllables together. I hope you understand my meaning; it's a bit hard to
explain! So, as the alveolar R is easier and requires less effort, why do
some people use the retroflex R in this type of word?
Cheers,
Matt
PS. On a similar note, wouldn't it be easier for rhotic people to just be
non-rhotic? All these retroflex Rs require a lot of effort. Save energy by
being alveolar - and save even more by only pronouncing R before a vowel! I
hereby name this week "Be non-rhotic for a week" week, and by the end of the
week you'll do it all the time! Too many Rs in rhotic accents, more Rs than
anything else - can hardly hear the rest of the words amongst all the
excessive Rs!
Father Ignatius
jump in, yet once again, to assert that "people" is not the plural of
"person".
Pat Durkin
"Matt Davis" <ave...@not.thisbit.tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
news:45e37951$1...@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com...
You do know that the alveolar ridge is:
ridge behind teeth: a hard ridge in the mouth immediately behind the
roots of the teeth
The description of the English R as an alveolar approximant is a bit
vague, without examples. Where or when (at what site, in what words)
are you hearing it? To me it means the tongue approaches the alveolar
ridge without touching it, and that leads into a discussion of
"rhoticism", as we have only recently had it. Intervocalic,
post-consonantal or terminal (in a phrase) position makes a difference
in how the letters are sounded.
The American R as I say it makes the tongue curl up towards the ridge,
maintaining some tension, but also without touching it. As you hear it
in "A-mehr (mare, bear)-i-ka", I call it a "hard r", and it has a very
strong (darkening) effect on the vowel preceding it. That is why, if I
split the syllables as you see, the "e" of "bet" changes. Perhaps the
British "alveolar approximant" doesn't have the retrograde (backward
effect) sound.
I think the American R is honestly come by. Picture all the caricatures
of pirates and "Aarrh"(spelled variously, of course). Most of those are
modeled on some conception of British sounds.
Archie Valparaiso
<FatherI...@ananzi.co.za> wrought:
>I think this would be a great place for that ol' Mr. Conningham to
>jump in, yet once again, to assert that "people" is not the plural of
>"person".
Do try to keep up. It's not not the plural of person; it's not *a*
plural of "person".
(And WB, BTW.)
--
Archie Valparaiso
Tunbridge Wells borough residents are the
second best recyclers in Kent.
Purl Gurl
> Purl Gurl wrote:
>> Matt Davis wrote:
>>> I read on a couple of sites that the English R is an alveolar
> approximant,
>>> and the American R is a retroflex approximant.
>> Enunciate "military" British style.
>> mill leh tree (tongue retracts, slightly downward)
>> Enunciate "military" American style.
>> mill leh tear ee (tongue extends, slightly upward)
> OK, I've just done that, I think. It seems to me that an alveolar R is
> quicker and comes out more easily. If I enunciate a retroflex R, it requires
> considerably more effort, so why do people bother? Wouldn't alveolar Rs be
> easier? Assuming I'm doing it right, of course.
This is not a matter of choice. This is a matter of training
during upbringing.
I can swim like crazy. I am as graceful of a swimmer as a whale.
Others cannot swim at all. Those others might ask, "Why do you
swim? Swimming is very difficult. You should stay out of water."
Easy for me to swim, I learned to swim as a baby when I was tossed
off the Tallahatchie Bridge up near Choctaw Ridge. Been swimming
ever since.
Long before birth, we begin learning language and this learning
intensifies at birth and after. Which language we learn, becomes
an easy language through learning and practice for decades.
Today, based on estimates, there are less than twenty-thousand
of us who speak Choctaw. Clearly, I rarely enjoy speaking Choctaw
with others. To maintain and hone my Choctaw language skills, I
hold Choctaw conversations with myself, while teaching myself new
Choctaw words as discovered from various sources.
Choctaw language is easy for me, not so easy for you. I would ask,
"Why do you speak English? Speaking Choctaw is easier, more logical
and more descriptive." You attempt to speak Choctaw. Later you visit
with a doctor to seek a prescription for Vicodin to alleviate this
pain caused by injuring your mouth trying to speak Choctaw.
Which language is most easy to speak is a matter of subjective
personal perspective, a viewpoint which is based upon individual
language training during upbringing.
Reminds me of a customer service incident. Years back, I have some
question about software. I can no longer remember my question nor
remember which software. However, I do remember and will always
remember the name of the customer representative. Her name is "O"
simply the letter "O" in our English alphabet,
"Your name is O? How do you spell your name?"
"O"
"Oh, O, Ok!"
"O, my name is Okpulot Taha (oak-pooh-loot tah-hay) or Okpulot Taha
(oak-pooh-lot tah-hah) depending if you are speaking Longtown dialect
or speaking SixTowns dialect. You may call me 'Crazy.' Now, about this
software of yours...."
"Crazy?"
"Yes, Crazy, my interpreted name is 'Crazy' in your English language.
O, do not think me crazy, but this software of yours...."
"I do not think you crazy."
I recall we never got around to discussing my software problem.
Language usage is crazy, yes? This is why I invented an English
name for myself; to avoid this crazy maker. Life is easy, now,
and I can swim like a whale!
Purl Gurl