Pronounce "route"
Robert Smart
"rowt" as a minor variation used by the military. I have a nasty feeling
that the military pronunciation is spreading.
Bob Kummerfeld from the University of Sydney offered a nice explanation
of how this might have happened. In an American battalion of non-English
background the commander told the non-commisioned officer that they
were going on a "route(root) march to rout(rowt) the enemy" but this
got mangled into a "rowt march to root the enemy", and the mistake stuck.
A more likely explanation is that the use of "root" as slang for
sexual intercourse lead to giggles, so they looked for an alternative
pronunciation.
It is presumably through military involvement in the development of
computer networking that the network boxes came to be called "rowters"
and the activity they engage in got called "rowting". I now sense that
this disaster is spreading into the general community.
When I was young there was a tv program "Route 66". Is that still
pronounced "root 66" or is "rowt 66" winning in America?
Bob Smart
P.S. It would have been better as alt.english.usage but this can
be improved when it is moved to the real heirarchy. This will only
happen if the contributions are not all frivolous.
Michael A. Covington
pronunciation of "route") was gaining ground against "rowt".
But I could be wrong. The obvious place to look would be
Przebienda & Wall's WORDS AND PHRASES INDEX, which will give references
to appropriate articles in American Speech and other journals.
Or the New Oxford English Dictionary.
[Yes, I know that last bit isn't a sentence.]
--
-------------------------------------------------------
Michael A. Covington | Artificial Intelligence Programs
The University of Georgia | Athens, GA 30602 U.S.A.
-------------------------------------------------------
Baba C Prasad
>My dictionary says that "route" is pronounced like root. It mentions
>"rowt" as a minor variation used by the military. I have a nasty feeling
>that the military pronunciation is spreading.
Sorry, but route is pronounced "rut" (u with umlaut) so "rooot", and
so your entire theory is invalid. It has nothing to do with "root" and
its sexual implications!
--baba prasad
Duncan Peter G. Thornton
>My dictionary says that "route" is pronounced like root. It mentions
>"rowt" as a minor variation used by the military. I have a nasty feeling
>that the military pronunciation is spreading.
>Bob Kummerfeld from the University of Sydney offered a nice explanation
>of how this might have happened. In an American battalion of non-English
>background the commander told the non-commisioned officer that they
>were going on a "route(root) march to rout(rowt) the enemy" but this
>got mangled into a "rowt march to root the enemy", and the mistake stuck.
>A more likely explanation is that the use of "root" as slang for
>sexual intercourse lead to giggles, so they looked for an alternative
>pronunciation.
I'm not sure I think this is a likely explanation, since I've never
heard this particular euphemism. Granted I'm not an American, or
in the military, but still...
- Duncan
Duncan Thornton | An odd thought stikes me - we shall receive no
tho...@ccu.umanitoba.ca | email in the grave.
Chuck Coleman
>
>I wonder if [rowt] for `route' is an affected pronunciation. To North
>American (especially to those who do not want to sound American) it
>might seem more educated. The OED gives only the [root] pronunciation.
As far as I can tell, this a regional variation. Northerners say
"root", Southerners say "rout." Californians use both because they
are descended from migrants from both sides of the Mason-Dixon line.
>For parallels, consider the Canadian or British pronunciations of
>words like `house' and `out'.
The usual Canadian pronunciations "huws" and "uwt" are, in fact,
archaic survivals from the 16th Century. These were the
pronunciations used by Chaucer and Shakespeare. The other
pronunciations are comparatively recent innovations. It can probably
be shown that the other North American pronunciations are descended from
Southern English dialects (i.e. the South of England.)
Chuck Coleman "Sorry, no concluding witticism"
School: Work:
Center for Study of Public Choice NPA Data Services, Inc.
George Mason University 1424 16th St. N.W. Suite 700
4400 University Drive Washington, DC 20036
Fairfax, VA 22030 (202) 265-7685
BITNET: ccoleman@GMUVAX
Internet: ccol...@gmuvax2.gmu.edu
William F Phillips
:My dictionary says that "route" is pronounced like root. It mentions
:"rowt" as a minor variation used by the military. I have a nasty feeling
:that the military pronunciation is spreading.
:It is presumably through military involvement in the development of
:computer networking that the network boxes came to be called "rowters"
:and the activity they engage in got called "rowting". I now sense that
:this disaster is spreading into the general community.
It seems to me more likely that this occurred as a result of the
involvement of amateur cabinetmakers in the development of
computer networking.
--
___ ___ _ | Bill Phillips,
(/__) . /) /) (/__) /_ . /) /) . _ _ | Friend Of A Friend
/__) (__(__(___ / / )_(__(__(__(_ /_)_/_)_ |
( ( ( | w...@world.std.com
Penny Cass
>A more likely explanation is that the use of "root" as slang for
>sexual intercourse lead to giggles, so they looked for an alternative
>pronunciation.
My mailman has the longest route in town.
--
--*--*--*--*--*--*--*-- SECUNDUM NATURAM VIVESI --*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--
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are in harmony with the changing productive potential of the ecosystem"- U.N.
-- Internet: cas...@mist.cs.orst.edu --*-- UUCP hplabs!hp-pcd!orstcs!casspe --
Kaleb Keithley
>"rowt" as a minor variation used by the military. I have a nasty feeling
>that the military pronunciation is spreading.
>
>Bob Kummerfeld from the University of Sydney offered a nice explanation
>
>When I was young there was a tv program "Route 66". Is that still
>pronounced "root 66" or is "rowt 66" winning in America?
You say tomayto,
and I say tomahto,
you say potayto,
and I say potahto,
Let's call the whole thing off.
Here in the land of LA, I hear both used. I personally prefer the
pronunciation that rhymes with out and have always used context to
differentiate between route and rout. Although the US military hadn't
had a rout during my lifetime until recently, so rout didn't really come
up in conversation all that often.
--
Kaleb Keithley ka...@thyme.jpl.nasa.gov
Meep Meep Roadrunner
Veep veep Quayle
Gordon Smith
> sexual intercourse lead to giggles, so they looked for an alternative
> pronunciation.
--
Gordon Smith, Computer Centre, Uni. of New England, Armidale, Australia 2351
Internet: gor...@une.oz.au, telephone: +61 67 73 2287, fax: +61 67 73 3272
Warwick Allison
>>"rowt" as a minor variation used by the military. I have a nasty feeling
>>that the military pronunciation is spreading.
>Sorry, but route is pronounced "rut" (u with umlaut) so "rooot", and
>so your entire theory is invalid. It has nothing to do with "root" and
>its sexual implications!
Well, ignoring the godlike tone of that article...
Australian pronunciation:
root and route are usually pronounced exactly the same, spell it rute if you like.
Does any dialect usually have root rhyme with soot? (where soo ryhmes with put).
O, hell, we will have to start using digraphs soon. Is there a standard notation
describing a grave/umlaut/etc. over a letter? o` o: o~ o^ ???
Warwick.
--
_-_|\ war...@cs.uq.oz.au
/ * <-- Computer Science Department,
\_.-._/ University of Queensland,
v Brisbane, AUSTRALIA.
David Megginson
I wonder if [rowt] for `route' is an affected pronunciation. To North
American (especially to those who do not want to sound American) it
might seem more educated. The OED gives only the [root] pronunciation.
For parallels, consider the Canadian or British pronunciations of
words like `house' and `out'.
--
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
/ David Megginson da...@doe.utoronto.ca /
/ Centre for Medieval Studies meg...@vm.epas.utoronto.ca /
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Blue Dragon
>In article <1991May11.0...@mel.dit.csiro.au> sm...@manta.mel.dit.csiro.au (Robert Smart) writes:
>
>
>in that there is even more contention over the pronunciation of 'root' than
>there is over 'route'...
>
Good point. I've just noticed the following with regard to my pronounciation:
Route 66: I pronounce it just like in the song, i.e. rhymes with 'toot'
newspaper route: I pronounce it "rowt" (i.e. rhymes with 'doubt')
route as a verb: I pronounce it as in newspaper route
Anyone else make these distinctions? Or do you all have one unique
pronounciation for the word?
Blue
David M Tate
>My dictionary says that "route" is pronounced like root.
My guess is that this comment does *not* clarify the issue for most people,
in that there is even more contention over the pronunciation of 'root' than
there is over 'route'...
--
David M. Tate | "Your telegram has been sent, sir. You should be
dt...@unix.cis.pitt.edu | receiving it in about an hour. We've sent your
Motto: | bags ahead to your hotel. Where will you be
Gramen artificiosum odi | staying?" --Firesign Theater.
Scott Brim
"rowt" pronunciation for "route" simply because we have run into
significant, sometimes potentially dangerous, confusion when pronouncing
"root" and "route" the same way. It used to be that everyone knew it
was a conscious decision to use a less preferred pronunciation, and we
would smile at each other when we used it. Nowadays in the networking
world "rowt" and "rowter" have become the preferred pronunciations.
Scott
Craig Cockburn
|>From: s...@nr-tech.cit.cornell.edu (Scott Brim)
|>Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
|>Subject: Re: Pronounce "route"
This is news to me. I used to work in the group which developed Digital's
X25Router and we never pronounced it 'rowter'. What sort of problems did
you run into?
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Craig Cockburn, Digital Equipment Co. Ltd, Reading, England.
ARPAnet: cock...@system.enet.dec.com
UUCP:..!decwrl!system.enet.dec.com!cockburn
{ Airson Alba Ur }
Views expressed here are my own, and do not necessarily
reflect those of Digital.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
System Janitor
looks. I mean, it has ``out'' stuck in the middle of it.
-Mike
Andrew Dunstan
Since when did English have phonetic spelling?
Why do we pronounce "bough" as "bow" (doggy noise) and not "buff" or "boff"?
If you want phonetic spelling, you will ahve to use a language other
than English.
Many feel that this is already happening in a certain part of the world!
- Andrew
David Hansen
>-Mike
In hydrology most people say "rowting" for "routing",
a simple mathematical procedure used to convert
an inflow hydrograph to an outflow hydrograph which
is desired at some distance downstream.
However, I believe most Canadians would say
root when referring to a bus route. Odd.
David Hansen
Civil Engineering
Memorial University of Newfoundland
dav...@garfield.cs.mun.ca
Sameer Parekh
>In article <1991May11.0...@mel.dit.csiro.au> sm...@manta.mel.dit.csiro.au (Robert Smart) writes:
>
>>A more likely explanation is that the use of "root" as slang for
>>sexual intercourse lead to giggles, so they looked for an alternative
>>pronunciation.
>
> My mailman has the longest route in town.
depending on the context. The route 66 was rowt for me, and the mailman
route was root for me.
--
The Ravings of the Insane Maniac Sameer Parekh -- za...@ddsw1.MCS.COM
Michael DeLong
gre...@gambia.crd.ge.com (ben a green) writes:
|> In article <282F161...@ics.uci.edu> dhar...@bonnie.ics.uci.edu
(Daniel Lee Harkless) writes:
|>
|> In article <1991May13.1...@hubcap.clemson.edu>
hub...@hubcap.clemson.edu (System Janitor) writes:
|> >Gosh... I think I've always said ``rowt'' because that's how it
|> >looks. I mean, it has ``out'' stuck in the middle of it.
|> >
|> >-Mike
|>
with
|> "boot." The "rowt" pronunciation is just an ugly anglicization of
the proper
|> pronunciation. I hate it when people mangle French.
|>
|>
|> Yes, but if we are speaking English, then French rules shouldn't
matter.
|> One shouldn't be so lacking in self-confidence as to use foreign
rules
|> to pronounce words in one's own language. No?
No.
If by "one's own language" you mean your interior monologue, then
pronounce
the word any way you like. But if you are going to try to communicate
with other people...
|>
|> Consider how the British pronounce "Nicaragua" and "Jaguar".
|>
Consider how most English speaking people pronounce "hors d'oeuvre", or
"petit four", or "gauche". As best I can remember, these are French,
where "Nicaragua" and "Jaguar" are not. No?
Communication is a matter of convention rather than confidence.
|> Ben
|>
|> --
|> Ben A. Green, Jr.
|> gre...@crd.ge.com
|> Speaking only for myself, of course.
Mike.
-----
(ma...@virginia.edu)
ben a green
In article <1991May13.1...@hubcap.clemson.edu> hub...@hubcap.clemson.edu (System Janitor) writes:
Well, it's a French word and it is properly pronounced rhyming with
"boot." The "rowt" pronunciation is just an ugly anglicization of the proper
pronunciation. I hate it when people mangle French.
Yes, but if we are speaking English, then French rules shouldn't matter.
One shouldn't be so lacking in self-confidence as to use foreign rules
to pronounce words in one's own language. No?
Consider how the British pronounce "Nicaragua" and "Jaguar".
Ben
David Megginson
In <1991May13....@gmuvax2.gmu.edu>, Chuck Coleman writes:
> In article <1991May13....@doe.utoronto.ca> da...@doe.utoronto.ca (David Megginson) writes:
>
> >2) Shakespeare probably said [hews] (for `e', read schwa (a sort of
> > grunt), _not_ [e:]).
>
> This is basically the same as the Canadian pronunciation, the claim
> being made here is that the initial vowel of Shakespeare's diphthong
> is shorter.
Actually, they are very different. 16t century London English began
the diphthong with schwa, while Canadians begin it with the `u' in
Standard (read King's/Queen's) English `but'. The 16th-century
pronunciation was much more open, and would be obvious, even to
an untrained ear. I'm not certain, but I do remember hearing that
the Canadian pronunciation was common around the 18th century, or
at least, that it died out before 1800 in Standard English.
I don't know why I'm arguing, though. It would be nice to be able to
say that Canadians have preserved the purity of Shakespeare's English,
if such a thing as linguistic purity existed or mattered.
David
charles allen
> I have heard that Canadians do tend to use a broader vowel than Americans
> in pronouncing "house", but I can't detect the difference. A word where
> I can tell the difference is "roof" - Americans tend to pronounce it
> closer to "rough".
(for regional references, I live in the Southeast USA)
I have heard some people from other parts say "rough" or "ruff" for roof,
but not where I live. We say "roof" just like it's spelled.
> Ian.
> --
> Ian MacPhedran, Engineering Computer Centre, University of Saskatchewan.
> 2B13 Engineering Building, U. of S. Campus, Saskatoon, Sask., CANADA S7N 0W0
> mac...@dvinci.USask.CA macph...@sask.USask.CA
- Charles A, Mech Engr senior @ Clemson, SC
( Clemson is "Climpson", NOT "Clemzen" or "Climzen" or "Climzin" like
#*(^ yankee TV announcers say it. ) ;-)
Andreas Karrer
[...]
>We say "roof" just like it's spelled.
[...]
A utterly meaningless statement. So sorry.
- Andi
Murthy Yenamandra
>In article <282F161...@ics.uci.edu> dhar...@bonnie.ics.uci.edu (Daniel Lee Harkless) writes:
> "boot." The "rowt" pronunciation is just an ugly anglicization of the proper
> pronunciation. I hate it when people mangle French.
>Yes, but if we are speaking English, then French rules shouldn't matter.
>One shouldn't be so lacking in self-confidence as to use foreign rules
>to pronounce words in one's own language. No?
I agree partially. If the word you borrowed from another language is
so incorporated into your own language that it has lost all its original
foreign flavor, then I consider it OK to pronounce it as it has evolved in
your language. But if the word still retains its original flavor, then you
should probably stick to the original pronunciation.
If you were to pronounce all foreign words in English as they were
originally pronounced in some other languages that you borrowed them from,
you'd probably end up speaking French or Latin.
IMNSHO, ofcourse.
Murthy
--
"I'm guided by a signal in the heavens,
I'm guided by this birthmark on my skin;
I'm guided by the beauty of our weapons,
First, we take Manhattan; then we take Berlin..."
Peter Moylan
> looks. I mean, it has ``out'' stuck in the middle of it.
By this reasoning, you should pronounce it as a two-syllable word.
Peter
Peter Moylan
(Andrew Dunstan) writes:
>
> Since when did English have phonetic spelling?
>
> Why do we pronounce "bough" as "bow" (doggy noise) and not "buff" or "boff"?
>
it is written; but somewhere along the line the guttural `gh' sound
disappeared from the language.
English does have phonetic spelling. It just doesn't have phonetic
pronunciation. :-)
Peter Moylan ee...@cc.newcastle.edu.au
Peter Moylan
(Daniel Lee Harkless) writes:
>
> Well, "roof" rhyming with "hoof" is only one of two acceptable
> American pronunciations of "roof." That one would be common in the Midwest.
> In California and elsewhere, the more common pronunciation would be "roof"
> rhyming with "poof."
>
Now I'm really confused. In Australia, "hoof" rhymes with "poof", and
neither rhymes with "roof".
[No, I don't mean that "roof" is pronounced "reither".]
A cautionary tale: some years ago, I spent a year living in the U.S.A, and
my son went to school there, at a time when it had become fashionable to
teach a form of phonetic spelling as an aid in the teaching of reading and
writing.
Those homework exercises drove me crazy! Example: "Look at the following list
of words. In which is the `o' pronounced as in "hot", and in which is it
pronounced as in "coffee"?" As background, I should explain that in
Australian English there is *no* difference between those two `o' sounds.
I know that there is a difference in American English, but I could never
remember which was which.
[As an aside, my son also performed very poorly in spelling that year
- he kept using the Australian spellings, which are pretty much the same
as the British spellings. It was not until then that I came to appreciate
just how many differences there are.]
Until then, I had been in favour of some measure of spelling reform. That
experience cured me of that fallacy, by showing me that phonetic spelling
would mean that the various English-speaking nations would be unable to
read one another's written language.
Peter Moylan ee...@cc.newcastle.edu.au
Mary Tabasko
(Beverly Frobisher), referring to `o' in "hot" and "coffee", writes:
>Gee, I'm an American who has lived and visited all over the U.S.A. and I have
>*never* heard a difference between those two `o' sounds!
Listen to the "Coffee Talk" sketches on _Saturday Night Live_ :
"hot" doesn't have the same sound as "coffee," "dogs," or
"daughters."
-- Mary
**********************************************************************
* This curious world which we inhabit is more wonderful than it *
* is convenient; more beautiful than it is useful; it is more to *
* be admired and enjoyed than used. -- H.D. Thoreau *
**********************************************************************
--
Mary Tabasko (no relation to the hot-sauce folks)
Snail Mail: 371 S. Negley Ave., Apt. 5 MaBellNet: 412/362-0544
Pittsburgh, PA 15232-1110
E-Mail: mc...@unix.cis.pitt.edu /or/ tab...@icarus.lis.pitt.edu
Beverly Frobisher
>of words. In which is the `o' pronounced as in "hot", and in which is it
>pronounced as in "coffee"?" As background, I should explain that in
>Australian English there is *no* difference between those two `o' sounds.
>I know that there is a difference in American English, but I could never
>remember which was which.
Gee, I'm an American who has lived and visited all over the U.S.A. and I have
*never* heard a difference between those two `o' sounds!
*Frobi
--
The difference between practice and theory in practice is always
greater than the difference between practice and theory in theory
Practice: Theory which does not work properly.
Lig Lury Jr.
>In much of the great plains of the U.S.:
Like, say, Nebraska? That's where I am.
>root rhymes with foot, not with boot.
I pronounce it like boot. Born Nebraskan (unfortunately).
>route rhymes with boot if you mean a road, and bout if you mean a job
> delivering something (like a milk route, or a paper route)
Paper route though has been known to bounce back and forth in its
pronunciation.
>roof sounds like root (as above, except with an f)
Bow wow. Nope, not with me.
>Yes, we can hear the difference in the way Canadians (and Minnesotans, and
>North Dakotans...) pronounce any word that has the 'ou' sound in 'house'.
>(I know, period inside the quotes, but I think it's stupid, too.)
Yeah, but note that that is not in a speaking sense, like 'She said,
"Hi."' That seems to be the distinguising characteristic concerning
placement of commas and periods relative to quotes.
>-Just a guy from South Dakota worrying his mother to death and picking
> up bad habits from godless northeastern New York liberals.
>--
> Layne Ainsworth | la...@world.std.com <or> ...!{xylogics,uunet}!world!lains
> What I believe (Part IV): This is a pine tree. Many parts are edible.
--
/// ____ \\\ |"What? What's going on? Who's this?... Ladies and
| |/ / \ \| | | Gentlemen, a big hand please for the Great Prophet Zarquon."
\\_|\____/|_// |"Uh, thank you, sorry I'm late, so many things cropping up at
greg \_\\\/ hoss | the last moment. How are we for time? Have I just got a min
Lig Lury Jr.
>>I have heard that Canadians do tend to use a broader vowel than Americans
>>in pronouncing "house", but I can't detect the difference. A word where
>>I can tell the difference is "roof" - Americans tend to pronounce it
>>closer to "rough".
>>Can others really tell the difference in "house"?
> Well, "roof" rhyming with "hoof" is only one of two acceptable
>American pronunciations of "roof." That one would be common in the Midwest.
>In California and elsewhere, the more common pronunciation would be "roof"
>rhyming with "poof."
Heh, however hoof and poof can be pronounced differently as well, although
I haven't seen anyone who pronounces poof and puff the same.
Perhaps we should be comparing "roof" with "ruff".
>Dan Harkless
>dhar...@bonnie.ics.uci.edu
Lig Lury Jr.
>hub...@hubcap.clemson.edu (System Janitor) writes:
>>Gosh... I think I've always said ``rowt'' because that's how it
>>looks. I mean, it has ``out'' stuck in the middle of it.
>>
>>-Mike
>Since when did English have phonetic spelling?
>Why do we pronounce "bough" as "bow" (doggy noise) and not "buff" or "boff"?
You mean you don't consider "bough" as in "bow" as in "bow and arrow" a
possible pronunciation?
>If you want phonetic spelling, you will ahve to use a language other
>than English.
Or multiple equivalencies.
>- Andrew
Wait 'til people are trying to figure out the spelling of fiction devices
given only their name; for example, the Tox Utat, from Star Trek: The Next
Generation.
(With this font, two spaces after a colon doesn't look that good.)
ben a green
>Those homework exercises drove me crazy! Example: "Look at the following list
>of words. In which is the `o' pronounced as in "hot", and in which is it
>pronounced as in "coffee"?" As background, I should explain that in
>Australian English there is *no* difference between those two `o' sounds.
>I know that there is a difference in American English, but I could never
>remember which was which.
Gee, I'm an American who has lived and visited all over the U.S.A. and I have
In the southern US, "hot" rhymes with "not", and coffee rhymes with "Aw, gee".
But then in the south we distinguish Mary (with the sound of letter A),
marry (with the sound of at or Harry) and merry (with the sound of bet or berry).
The rest of you have just forgotten, that's all. :-)
Ed Russell
reply) about the pronunciation of "bough" and a response said something
about the gutteral "gh" sound being dropped from the language. How does
that explain the different sounds for "bough", "cough", "dough", "rough",
"through", and probably some others? No wonder English is so difficult
to learn as a second language.
David Smith
>(for regional references, I live in the Southeast USA)
>I have heard some people from other parts say "rough" or "ruff" for roof,
>but not where I live. We say "roof" just like it's spelled.
Just like it's spelled?
look loot
book boot
took toot
hook hoot
cook coot
crook cool
nook moot
good fool
rook Saskatoon
OK, how do you pronounce "roof"? Do you make it assonant with "rook"?
While we're at it, how about "hoof"? Is it pronounced "hoof" like it's
spelled, or "hoof" like it's spelled?
--
David R. Smith, HP Labs | "There are two kinds of truth.
dsm...@hplabs.hp.com | There are real truths,
(415) 857-7898 | and there are made-up truths."
| - Marion Barry (USN&WR 12/31/90 p18)
Warwick Allison
I can't understand half the things that are said when we talk
about words rhyming. Is there some way we can write things so
that we (Southern US, Northern US, Candaian, UK, Australian, NZ, etc.)
can all know what is being said?
How about: (best ASCII I can produce from my dictionary's key)
The example words are very generic if you just try to think how an English person
would pronounce them (call it Queen's English)...
a bat e bet i bit o bot u but
a| rate a: far e| meat i| why
o| tone o^ call oo book o_o food
yoo sinuous yo_o few oi boy ou shout
ur fern e@ potter e|e@ beer ooe@ bear
ch lurch sh shin zh leisure th think
th/ this n/ anger ' happen: hap'n kh loch (Scot)
a* bal (Fr) halfway between a and a:
e: coeur (Fr) e said with lips in o position
o: Goethe (Ger) a| with lips in o| position
o* coq (Fr)
u: duc (Fr) e| with lips in o_o position
H ich (Ger) kh with tongue raised towards the front of the palate
n/ bon (Fr) indicating that the previous vowel is nasalized
r/ recht (Ger) tongue-point trill
' lettre (at end of word: letr')
So, I pronounce:
route ro_ot
roof ro_of
daughter do^te@r
Phew,
Warwick.
--
_-_|\ war...@cs.uq.oz.au
/ * <-- Computer Science Department,
\_.-._/ University of Queensland,
v Brisbane, AUSTRALIA.
Peter Moylan
(Beverly Frobisher) writes:
> [quoting me]
>>Those homework exercises drove me crazy! Example: "Look at the following list
>>of words. In which is the `o' pronounced as in "hot", and in which is it
>>pronounced as in "coffee"?" As background, I should explain that in
>>Australian English there is *no* difference between those two `o' sounds.
>>I know that there is a difference in American English, but I could never
>>remember which was which.
>
> Gee, I'm an American who has lived and visited all over the U.S.A. and I have
> *never* heard a difference between those two `o' sounds!
Sorry, that means that I must have misquoted the original example. What
I meant was that in American English there are at least three `o' sounds
(sounding roughly like the way I would pronounce the vowels in "home",
"port", and "tart"), and that corresponding to these there are only two
distinct sounds in Australian English - and, more importantly, that it can
be very different for a non-American to remember which `o' belongs with
which word. For example, I still can't remember whether I'm supposed
to ask for "corfee" or "carfee" in the US.
Peter
Peter Moylan
I'm not an expert on this, but since I was that somebody I'd better
follow up. As I understand it, what happened was this:
1. English used to have a guttural "gh", a sort of throat-clearing sound
which still exists in some other European languages but which has now
disappeared from standard English. As nearly as I can guess, it sounded
roughly like the modern Dutch "g" - i.e. a bit like the "ch" in "loch"
but further back in the throat. When it disappeared, it was replaced
by a hard `g' (as in Ghent, pronounced the English way), or by an
approximate equivalent (cough, rough, etc.), or in some cases (bough,
dough) simply became silent.
2. The "ou" had a very wide range of pronunciations from one region to
another. The difference in the vowel sounds in pairs like bough/through
arises because at different times in history different parts of
England had their pronunciations accepted as "standard".
Peter Moylan ee...@cc.newcastle.edu.au
Beverly Frobisher
>"hot" doesn't have the same sound as "coffee," "dogs," or
>"daughters."
>
>-- Mary
Maybe that's because they are New Yorkers? :-) :-)
Beverly Frobisher
>I meant was that in American English there are at least three `o' sounds
>(sounding roughly like the way I would pronounce the vowels in "home",
>"port", and "tart"), and that corresponding to these there are only two
>distinct sounds in Australian English - and, more importantly, that it can
>be very different for a non-American to remember which `o' belongs with
>which word. For example, I still can't remember whether I'm supposed
>to ask for "corfee" or "carfee" in the US.
>
>Peter
Sorry I keyed in on just a small part of what you were saying. I think you
made a very interesting point. I don't have children and was unaware of the
methods used in American schools these days. I think that could be difficult
for any non-American and possibly for Americans from different regions of the
country as well.
I personally have not heard people pronounce coffee with an r sound, but I
would not doubt that some people do.
David Smith
>1. English used to have a guttural "gh", a sort of throat-clearing sound
> which still exists in some other European languages but which has now
> disappeared from standard English. As nearly as I can guess, it sounded
> roughly like the modern Dutch "g" - i.e. a bit like the "ch" in "loch"
> but further back in the throat. When it disappeared, it was replaced
> by a hard `g' (as in Ghent, pronounced the English way), or by an
> approximate equivalent (cough, rough, etc.), or in some cases (bough,
> dough) simply became silent.
I inferred (part of) this from the correspondence between "knight" and
German "Knecht", and between "light" and German "Licht". But my guess was
that the "gh" would correspond in sound to the "ch" in these German words,
which is farther forward in the mouth, about halfway between "sh" and the
"ch" in "loch".
Dave Cochran
Don't be so quick to lump the entire "south" into one category. My family and
I make no phonetic distinction between "Mary" and "merry", although "marry" is
pronounced differently.
The difference in the vowel sound between "hot" and "coffee" is related to the
relative "hardness" of the subsequent consonant sound. "f", "v", "l", and "g",
to name a few, would almost always elicit an "aw" sound when preceded by "o",
but "p", "b", "t" and others would bring out a short "o" sound, as in "hot".
We therefore have "cob", "lop", "pot", etc., but we have "dawg", "hawl (hall)",
"cawfee", etc.
Lest I be accused of generalizing (as I accused, in my opening sentence), this
is my experience from a southern Georgia family. I'm sure that there are other
pronunciations and inflections throughout the southern part of the country.
--
+------------------------------------------------------+
|Dave Cochran (coc...@spam.rtp.dg.com) |
|Data General Corporation, Research Triangle Park, NC |
+------------------------------------------------------+
|"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. |
| Inside of a dog it's too dark to read." -Groucho Marx|
+------------------------------------------------------+
David M. Brown
Frobisher) writes:
I personally have not heard people pronounce coffee with an r sound, but I
would not doubt that some people do.
I wondered whether anyone would make this mistake when I read Warwick's
message: an Australian wouldn't pronounce the "r" in "corfee" or "carfee"
either!
Rent Crocodile Dundee (the sequel's nowhere near as good) and listen to Paul
Hogan's accent. It'll help you understand the point Warwick is making.
Just one Australophile's advice...
--
David M. Brown, Technical Editor
Sequent Computer Systems, Inc. | Telephone: (503) 578-3176
Mail Stop RHE2-730 | Fax: (503) 578-7569
15450 SW Koll Parkway | Internet: d...@sequent.com
Beaverton, Oregon 97006-6063 | uucp: ...!sequent!dmb
Dan Harkless
>Yes, but if we are speaking English, then French rules shouldn't matter.
>One shouldn't be so lacking in self-confidence as to use foreign rules
>to pronounce words in one's own language. No?
>
>Consider how the British pronounce "Nicaragua" and "Jaguar"
Yes, I know. I think it sounds incredibly stupid. I think it's a
particularly foolish form of cultural superioritsim to deliberately
mispronounce foreign words as if they were words within one's own tongue
because one has "self-confidence" and is "speaking one's own language, dammit!
Who cares how them damn foriegners pronounce it?" This attitude is
particularly annoying. Mispronouncing foreign words indicates ignorance and
unsophistication. My mother used to be a stewardess for Pan Am, and some Texan
passenger once asked her when they would arrive at Rio de Janeiro, pronouncing
it "Righ-oh dee Juh-neh-ree-oh." I think it symbolizes a general self-superior
lack of regard towards other cultures to not learn the very basic pronunciation
rules of the major ones. I, for one, can appreciate the beauty and value of
other languages and try my hardest to pronounce things properly.
Dan Harkless
dhar...@bonnie.ics.uci.edu
Daniel Lee Harkless
>>of words. In which is the `o' pronounced as in "hot", and in which is it
>>pronounced as in "coffee"?" As background, I should explain that in
>>Australian English there is *no* difference between those two `o' sounds.
>>I know that there is a difference in American English, but I could never
>>remember which was which.
>
>Gee, I'm an American who has lived and visited all over the U.S.A. and I have
>*never* heard a difference between those two `o' sounds!
Me neither! Are you sure your memory is accurate, Pete?
Dan Harkless
dhar...@bonnie.ics.uci.edu
Chuck Coleman
"Gh" represents three different sounds, at least two of which are
still current in Scotland. 1: IPA [x], which is found as "ch" in the
Scottish "Loch", as in Loch Ness. This is similar to the sound made
by clearing the throat. 2: A palatal version of this sound in
conjuction with front vowels "e" and "i", as in the standard High
German "ch" in "ich". 3: The voiced version of 1 [gh]. The only
example that comes to mind of this is "Edinburgh," in which "gh" has
has shifted to "uh"!. Perhaps some Northern dialects still preserve the
original consonental pronunciation.
I don't know why the different pronunciations of "gh" developed.
Pronunciation 2 is particularly fragile, and his disappeared
completely from the Queen's (King's?) English, and from dialects
outside Britain. Exx: "eight" and "neighbor." In case 1, both [f] and silence
are logical developments of this phoneme. Perhaps different dialects
evolved different pronunciations, which were mixed up randomly by our
linguistic predecessors. Case 3 is the most interesting. At first, I
thought that "gh" fell silent, but the usual pronunciation of
"Edinburgh" is [Edinbruh]. What I believe happened is the following: 1.
[gh] shifted to [uh]: [Edinburuh]. 2. The first "u" fell silent,
resulting in the modern pronunciation. "Burgh" is an interesting word.
"Gh" was originally (at the time of the Norman conquest) pronounced as
spelled. ;-) Various dialects shifted its pronunciation around, so that
we now "borough", with silent "gh"; "Edinburgh" per above; modern, but
rare, "burg", sometimes spelled "burgh" in place names, with its hard
"g"; and "bury" found in modern place names. The last arose a result of
the fronting of "u" (Old and Middle English sp. "y" or the curious
character called "wynn"), which began during Anglo-Saxon times. "Gh" is
a weak sound when not fronted, and in this case came to be vocalic "y".
Chuck Coleman "Sorry, no concluding witticism"
School: Work:
Center for Study of Public Choice NPA Data Services, Inc.
George Mason University 1424 16th St. N.W. Suite 700
4400 University Drive Washington, DC 20036
Fairfax, VA 22030 (202) 265-7685
BITNET: ccoleman@GMUVAX
Internet: ccol...@gmuvax2.gmu.edu
Chuck Coleman "Sorry, no concluding witticism"
School: Work:
Center for Study of Public Choice NPA Data Services, Inc.
George Mason University 1424 16th St. N.W. Suite 700
4400 University Drive Washington, DC 20036
Fairfax, VA 22030 (202) 265-7685
BITNET: ccoleman@GMUVAX
Internet: ccol...@gmuvax2.gmu.edu
Steve Guest
> When I was young there was a tv program "Route 66". Is that still
> pronounced "root 66" or is "rowt 66" winning in America?
There was also a song called Route 66, pronounced root, possibly the theme
of that show, although I'm too young to remember it.
----
Steve Guest (ssgu...@cc.curtin.edu.au)
Ph. +61 9 296 1371 (ah)
Damian Cugley
Message-Id: <1991May15.1...@cc.newcastle.edu.au>
> In article <282F1F9...@ics.uci.edu>, dhar...@bonnie.ics.uci.edu
> (Daniel Lee Harkless) writes:
> >
> > Well, "roof" rhyming with "hoof" is only one of two acceptable
> > American pronunciations of "roof." That one would be common in the Midwest.
> > In California and elsewhere, the more common pronunciation would be "roof"
> > rhyming with "poof."
> >
> Now I'm really confused. In Australia, "hoof" rhymes with "poof", and
> neither rhymes with "roof".
Also, in British and Australian English, "poof" is pronounced
differently according to whether it is being used as onamatapeia for
dissappearing in a puff of smoke or as an insulting term for a
homosexual or effeminate male person.
In British English two "oo" sounds are often called oo-as-in-book (in
the IPA an inverted cap. Omega) and oo-as-in-boot (in IPA a l.c. "u").
"Roof" and sometimes "hoof" are pronounced as in "boot" in the South of
England and as in "book" in the North. I think.
ben a green
Dan Harkless
Peter's memory is perfect. Most of us from the southern US say
"cawfee", not "cahfee". Warwick tried to express these as "corfee"
and "carfee", but some of us in the States were distracted by the
r's, which were intended to be silent.
Robert Harper
>Dan Harkless
>dhar...@bonnie.ics.uci.edu
There's another interpretation of the motivation for pronouncing foreign words
as if they were English, and that's that in nearly every case nearly every
person cannot pronounce the foreign word remotely correctly, so why pretend
that you can? It's actually a form of humility, not arrogance.
- Bob Harper
--
Robert Harper
Department of Computer Science
Carnegie-Mellon University
Pittsburgh, PA 15213-3890
Paul Crowley
> look loot
I suspect that Mancunians (that's residents of Manchester for you USAns)
pronounce the two very similarly...
____
\/ o\ Paul Crowley ai...@castle.ed.ac.uk \ /
/\__/ Part straight. Part gay. All queer. \/
Paul Crowley
>dhar...@bonnie.ics.uci.edu (Daniel Lee Harkless) writes:
>>In California and elsewhere, the more common pronunciation would be "roof"
>>rhyming with "poof."
>Heh, however hoof and poof can be pronounced differently as well, although
>I haven't seen anyone who pronounces poof and puff the same.
Yup. Down south, East London way, "poof" is a dull sounding [puf]
sound. Up here, it's a vowel whose name I can't remember, but it's a
front rounded dipthong of some sort with a lot more flavour. I like
it...
Brian Scearce
>In article <GREENBA.91...@gambia.crd.ge.com> gre...@gambia.crd.ge.com (ben a green) writes:
>>Yes, but if we are speaking English, then French rules shouldn't matter.
>>One shouldn't be so lacking in self-confidence as to use foreign rules
>>to pronounce words in one's own language. No?
>>
>>Consider how the British pronounce "Nicaragua" and "Jaguar"
> Yes, I know. I think it sounds incredibly stupid. I think it's
> a particularly foolish form of cultural superioritism to deliberately
> mispronounce foreign words as if they were words within one's own
> tongue because one has "self-confidence" and is "speaking one's
> own language, dammit!
This is a tricky area. I tend to think of non-English place names,
at least, as being the English words for those places. The capital
of France is [PAIR-iss] not [pah-REE]. That big country fifty
miles from Alaska is the Soviet Union, or the USSR, not the Russian
words. It's "Germany", not "Deutschland".
I don't think I'm being self-superior in this -- I can speak (some)
French, at least enough to "correctly" pronounce French place names,
but I use the accepted English pronunciations. Sometimes the
accepted English names are "correct" -- it's [nees] not [nice].
For phrases and people's names, I try to say them in the original
language as best I can. For place names, I use the accepted English
pronunciation. Double standard? Maybe. But it's tough enough
making myself understood saying "Soviet Union" instead of "Roosha"
:-), so I'm not going to try to make my communcation foggier yet
by trying to adhere to rules not followed by my listeners.
Interesting side note: there's a city in the San Francisco Bay area
named "Vallejo". The English pronunciation would be "val-EE-jo",
the Spanish would be "vie-AY-ho", but the accepted pronunciation
here is "vall-AY-ho". So nobody's right.
--
Brian Scearce (b...@robin.svl.cdc.com -or- robin!b...@shamash.cdc.com)
"Don't be surprised when a crack in the ice appears under your feet..."
Any opinions expressed herein do not necessarily reflect CDC corporate policy.
Lig Lury Jr.
>fr...@solbourne.com (Beverly Frobisher) writes:
>>ee...@cc.newcastle.edu.au (Peter Moylan) writes:
Thing is, there is no "r" sound in coffee. Or, due to the increasing
Spanish-speaking population, ask for "cafe'", where the ' indicates an
accent on the e.
>Peter
--
/// ____ \\\ Lig "By the way, what does teleport mean?" "Where
| |/ / \ \| | Lury does it say teleport!" "Oh, right over here, just
\\_|\____/|_// Jr. below the word Emergency, above the word `System',
greg \_\\\/ hoss.unl.edu and next to a sign which says `Out of Order'."
Natalie Maynor
>This is a tricky area. I tend to think of non-English place names,
>at least, as being the English words for those places. The capital
>of France is [PAIR-iss] not [pah-REE]. That big country fifty
>miles from Alaska is the Soviet Union, or the USSR, not the Russian
>words. It's "Germany", not "Deutschland".
Doesn't this depend upon where the conversation is taking place? If
I'm in France and am speaking French, I use the French pronunciation
of Paris. If I'm in the U.S. speaking English, the French pronunciation
would sound silly. If I'm talking to a Lufthansa airline employee, I
would say Deutschland. If I'm talking to a travel agent here in
Starkville, Mississippi, USA, I would feel silly saying Deutschland
(unless the travel agent happened to be German.)
--
--Natalie (n...@ra.msstate.edu)
Lig Lury Jr.
>Interesting side note: there's a city in the San Francisco Bay area
>named "Vallejo". The English pronunciation would be "val-EE-jo",
>the Spanish would be "vie-AY-ho", but the accepted pronunciation
>here is "vall-AY-ho". So nobody's right.
Hmm, from what Spanish I know, I believe your Spanish pronunciation is
wrong. You wrote the pronunciation for viejo. You want "va-yay-ho".
Also, I believe the accepted would be more close to "val-LAY-ho". I'll
have to ask my sister when I attend her wedding in San Francisco.
> Brian Scearce (b...@robin.svl.cdc.com -or- robin!b...@shamash.cdc.com)
--
Jon J Thaler
> Well, "roof" rhyming with "hoof" is only one of two acceptable
> American pronunciations of "roof." That one would be common in the .
> Midwest
> In California and elsewhere, the more common pronunciation would be "roof"
> rhyming with "poof."
>
> Now I'm really confused. In Australia, "hoof" rhymes with "poof", and
> neither rhymes with "roof".
Where I come from they all rhyme with 'axolotl'.
Jon J Thaler
Harper) says:
>
>There's another interpretation of the motivation for pronouncing foreign words
>as if they were English, and that's that in nearly every case nearly every
>person cannot pronounce the foreign word remotely correctly, so why pretend
>that you can? It's actually a form of humility, not arrogance.
I recall reading some time ago that there is evidence for a physiological
basis for the mispronunciation (not that I'm condoning laziness, you see).
Infants' babble contains all the sounds that occur in natural language. If
these sounds are not part of their environment, however, they lose the ability
to say, and even to hear, them. I recall that this happens over the course of
about one to two years. I would appreciate confirmation or contradiction.
I have two anecdotes (actually, pursuant to a posting by someone else on
another topic, the plural of 'anecdote' is 'data') that support my opinion.
While spending a month in China several years ago, I continually thirsted
for cold water. One can obtain water to drink, but it is always
boiled and usually warm. I persuaded my Chinese friends to teach
me the Chinese words for 'cold water', but I was never able to make myself
understood to restaurant personnel. It is not that cold water was
unavailable; I saw others (native speakers, presumably) ordering and
receiving cold water. It is also not that I didn't know the correct words
to say. A couple of years later I was in a Chinese restaurant in the USA,
heard someone order cold water in Chinese, and knew what he was saying before
it arrived.
I once was speaking to a Japanese graduate student on the phone. He spoke
English quite well, but during the conversation I spoke a word whose meaning
was completely changed by the substitution of the letter 'r' for the letter
'l'. Unfortunately, I don't remember the word. Naturally, confusion
reigned for several minutes, until I spelled the word to him. He could
not otherwise hear the difference.
Raymond Lang
>b...@u02.svl.cdc.com (Brian Scearce) writes:
>>dhar...@Bonnie.ICS.UCI.EDU (Dan Harkless) writes:
>>>gre...@gambia.crd.ge.com (ben a green) writes:
>>Interesting side note: there's a city in the San Francisco Bay area
>>named "Vallejo". The English pronunciation would be "val-EE-jo",
>>the Spanish would be "vie-AY-ho", but the accepted pronunciation
>>here is "vall-AY-ho". So nobody's right.
>Hmm, from what Spanish I know, I believe your Spanish pronunciation is
>wrong. You wrote the pronunciation for viejo. You want "va-yay-ho".
>Also, I believe the accepted would be more close to "val-LAY-ho". I'll
>have to ask my sister when I attend her wedding in San Francisco.
In Spanish, "ll" is pronounced as in the English word "million."
Lig Lury Jr.
Not how I was taught. I was taught it was pronounced similar to an
English y sound, repeated.
This was from my second Spanish teacher. The one that was supposedly from
Mexico told us that the pronunciation of the name of the Spanish letter g
was "ga", with a hard g sound, instead of "ge", with an h sound. Pretty
much all we did in his class was conjugate verbs.
Raymond Lang
>la...@rex.cs.tulane.edu (Raymond Lang) writes:
>>In Spanish, "ll" is pronounced as in the English word "million."
>Not how I was taught. I was taught it was pronounced similar to an
>English y sound, repeated.
Beginning Spanish is taught "ll equals y" because it's easier to
come closer to an authentic pronunciation; but if you say "million"
quickly, keeping the tip of the tongue down as you say the 'll', you'll
see what I mean.
Peter Moylan
>
> There's another interpretation of the motivation for pronouncing foreign words
> as if they were English, and that's that in nearly every case nearly every
> person cannot pronounce the foreign word remotely correctly, so why pretend
> that you can? It's actually a form of humility, not arrogance.
>
an import from French, so most English-speaking people try to make it
sound French, and they say something like long-zher-ray. The actual
French pronunciation is something totally different; I can't
reproduce it with this character set, but it's something like
la-zhe-ree. Moral: the attempt to make the word sound French in fact
made it incomprehensible to the French.
It works both ways. The English word "shampooing" has been adopted
(with spelling unchanged) into the French language, but you would never
recognize it: the pronunciation is sho-pwang.
Peter.
ben a green
In <1991May18....@unlinfo.unl.edu> gr...@hoss.unl.edu (Lig Lury Jr.) writes:
>la...@rex.cs.tulane.edu (Raymond Lang) writes:
>>In Spanish, "ll" is pronounced as in the English word "million."
>Not how I was taught. I was taught it was pronounced similar to an
>English y sound, repeated.
Beginning Spanish is taught "ll equals y" because it's easier to
come closer to an authentic pronunciation; but if you say "million"
quickly, keeping the tip of the tongue down as you say the 'll', you'll
see what I mean.
Before you get to tightly wed to the "ll" as "y" pronunciation, consider
that there are many regional differences among Spanish speakers. My
nephew, a Bolivian, insists on the [L] in "val-yea-ho" (English phonetics).
My Mexican friends say "va-yea-ho".
Juan Carlos Guzman
In article <1991May18....@unlinfo.unl.edu>, gr...@hoss.unl.edu (Lig Lury Jr.) writes:
|> la...@rex.cs.tulane.edu (Raymond Lang) writes:
|> >gr...@hoss.unl.edu (Lig Lury Jr.) writes:
|> >>b...@u02.svl.cdc.com (Brian Scearce) writes:
|>
|> >>>Interesting side note: there's a city in the San Francisco Bay area
|> >>>named "Vallejo". The English pronunciation would be "val-EE-jo",
|> >>>the Spanish would be "vie-AY-ho", but the accepted pronunciation
|> >>>here is "vall-AY-ho". So nobody's right.
|>
Well, Americans certainly pronounce Spanish words in a funny way :-).
My first experience was when I was taking English classes, trying to
pronounce `San Francisco'. Then San Juan, Puerto Rico. Then my own
name (Juan, usually pronounced very similar to ONE :-(). Another funny
word is `adios', (in the Spanish pronunciation, `i' and `o' form a diphtong
(sp?)). I almost laughed at a friend of mine when he told me he was going
to `El Paso'. We usually say Americans (and for that matter all English
speaking people) talk `with a potato in their mouths' :-).
Ah, I almost forgot; in `Los Angeles' the `g' is pronounced as an
English `h', not as a `j'. Well I was amazed to hear Peter Jennings
pronounce it with the `g' sound as in `get'.
My personal opinion is that people should pronounce foreign names
in English without making much effort to affect the pronunciation.
As much as I make fun of English speaking people trying to pronounce
foreign names, I am also aware of Spanish speaking people trying to
sound educated and mispronounce English words.
Juan Carlos Guzman.
PS. I pronounce Spanish `ll' and `y' (when consonant) as a sound
between English `y' and `j'. This is not the only acceptable
pronunciation, but (I believe) it's is the most widespread.
Erland Sommarskog
>This is a tricky area. I tend to think of non-English place names,
>at least, as being the English words for those places. The capital
>of France is [PAIR-iss] not [pah-REE]. That big country fifty
>miles from Alaska is the Soviet Union, or the USSR, not the Russian
>words. It's "Germany", not "Deutschland".
I have to start with saying that I am not consistent. For names
of countries I use the name of the language I'm currently speaking,
or at least I try to. Same goes for major cities which usually
have a language-specific name, or at least pronouciation. So Paris,
that's "Paris" in English and Swedish. And "G|teborg" ("|" is dotted
"o") is "Gothemburg" in English. (Surprising often I hear "Goteborg"
when people talk English as if they were ignorant of the English
name.) But other for Swedish cities, except Stockholm, I tend to
use the Swedish pronounciation. And I say "Torino" (Italy) no matter
the language I'm talking, not "Turin". Then again I don't say "Rome"
except in Italian. I prefer saying "Firenze" but that is so different
from "Florence"/"Florens" that it causes confusion for an ignorant
listener.
So far so good, but if we take places like Klaipeda (Lithuania),
Bagdad, Dushanbe (Tadjikistan), Hiroshima I will use the pro-
nounciation of the language I'm speaking, simply because being
ignorant of the language of the place I have no choice.
Another observation is that I find it distinctively harder to
switch temporary pronounciation to another language when I'm
talking English than Swedish. It may of course be due to that
English is not my native language, but somehow I have a feeling
that it is also because English has a stronger "colour" than
Swedish, and therefore more difficult to wash away.
--
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - som...@enea.se
Stephen Kurtzman
>Ah, I almost forgot; in `Los Angeles' the `g' is pronounced as an
>English `h', not as a `j'. Well I was amazed to hear Peter Jennings
>pronounce it with the `g' sound as in `get'.
The typical pronunciation around here would be close to:
Lahs An-juh-lus
A former mayor of Los Angeles, Sam Yorty, pronounced the "g" in
the manner you describe. His pronunciation was close to:
Lohs Ang-guh-lees
--
Stephen Kurtzman | "love is a minor chord; love is a mental ward;"
kurt...@pollux.usc.edu | love is a drawn sword; love is its own reward."
| -- Kate, Anna, & Jane McGarrigle
Daniel Lee Harkless
>There's another interpretation of the motivation for pronouncing foreign word
>as if they were English, and that's that in nearly every case nearly every
>person cannot pronounce the foreign word remotely correctly, so why pretend
>that you can? It's actually a form of humility, not arrogance.
Sure they *can*! It's just a question of whether or not they *will*.
There is no biological difference between people from different cultures that
allows only the natives to pronounce their language properly. It's just that
people are used to their own languages' pronunciation rules, and they're too
lazy or too indifferent to learn the rudiments of another set of such.
Dan Harkless
dhar...@bonnie.ics.uci.edu
Richard L. Goerwitz
>
>I have to start with saying that I am not consistent. For names
>of countries I use the name of the language I'm currently speaking,
>or at least I try to. Same goes for major cities which usually
>have a language-specific name, or at least pronouciation.
>
>Bagdad, Dushanbe (Tadjikistan), Hiroshima I will use the pro-
>nounciation of the language I'm speaking, simply because being
>ignorant of the language of the place I have no choice.
Bingo. It's long been the custom in English writing (both American
and British English) to use the English name if there is one, and
the native name if there is not (or at least if there is not a well-
known one). Is this custom formalized for Swedish as well, Erland?
Recently, I've been hearing newscasters here in the states try to
pronounce Spanish names "correctly." It's a real riot. Not because
the pronunciation is terrible. Rather, it's because this practice,
if taken to its logical conclusion, would become quite ludicrous.
Imagine newscasters trying to pronounce Chinese cities as Chinese,
Japanese business firms as Japanese. Erland, imagine them making
that funny Swedish 's' sound that you guys say with your teeth :-).
--
-Richard L. Goerwitz goer%sop...@uchicago.bitnet
go...@sophist.uchicago.edu rutgers!oddjob!gide!sophist!goer
Jon J Thaler
Harkless) says:
>> ... in nearly every case nearly every
>>person cannot pronounce the foreign word remotely correctly, so why pretend
>>that you can? It's actually a form of humility, not arrogance.
> Sure they *can*! It's just a question of whether or not they *will*.
>There is no biological difference between people from different cultures that
>allows only the natives to pronounce their language properly.
I think that you are mistaken. There is (although I can't cite
references) evidence that infants lose the ability to utter or hear
sounds that are not present in their environment. This appears to be a
genuine "wiring" change in the language centers of the brain. This
phenomenon clearly affects some people more than others, but I think it
is more than laziness than makes it more difficult for an older person to
learn a foreign language.
Glenn Bruns
in the US and Britain is that some words, such as "fillet", are
pronounced according to French in the US but not Britain; while
words such as "coupe" are just the opposite.
--
Glenn Bruns
Laboratory for Foundations of Computer Science
University of Edinburgh
ben a green
Or exhausted. There are thousands of languages in the world. Even if I am
foolish enough to try to learn them all, my listeners are not. I will not
attain my goal of communication if I insist on pronouncing words in a way
my listeners cannot understand.
Jim Scobbie
>Recently, I've been hearing newscasters here in the states try to
>pronounce Spanish names "correctly." It's a real riot. Not because
>the pronunciation is terrible. Rather, it's because this practice,
>if taken to its logical conclusion, would become quite ludicrous.
>Imagine newscasters trying to pronounce Chinese cities as Chinese,
>Japanese business firms as Japanese. Erland, imagine them making
>that funny Swedish 's' sound that you guys say with your teeth :-).
I couldn't agree more, or not much more. The BBC news readers have a habit
of getting off on the occasional fancy pronunciation to show how clever they
are. The gulf war was particularly sad. Lots of voiced velar fricatives
instead of pharyngeals and stuff --- yet when it came to a news item
about the US navy pulling out of Holy Loch in Scotland, we got no velar
fricatives [lAx] but the good ol' homophone for 'lock'. It makes me weep.
English speakers can't even pronounce words in their own language, so
why expect them to [pronounce foreign ones?
--
-------
Jim Scobbie, Dept of Linguistics, Stanford University, CA 94305-2150
(Previously at Edinburgh)
Scharle
is a French pronunciation for a word which may or may not be French.
A common example in the United States is for-tay for forte
(=a strong point, not the musical direction). I have also heard
toor-bo for turbot. Of course, even in the United States, purists pronounce
fillet with the "t" sound, distinguishing it from filet.
--
Tom Scharle CCCpqrCCrpCsp
Room G003 Computing Center
University of Notre Dame
Notre Dame, IN 46556-0539
sch...@lukasiewicz.cc.nd.edu
cm65n6@irishmvs (Bitnet)
Daniel Lee Harkless
Yes, I know it is much more difficult for an older person to learn a
foreign language, and that one is much more accustomed to the sounds of one's
own language, but all I am saying is that at the least, people should learn the
rudiments of how to pronounce common foreign languages using the sounds of
their own native lanuage. For instance, the word "route", which started all of
this. The oo-as-in-boot sound exists is English, so why not pronounce the word
using this correct pronunciation? The "rowt" pronunciation only came about due
to English-speakers looking at the word in print and pronouncing it as if it
were an English word. I realize that it is quite difficult for some to get
their tongue (even though, physically, it is absolutely capable) to make the
sounds heard in foreign languages. All I ask is that people pronounce the
closest approximation. For instance, "beaucoup" is very commonly mispronounced
"boo-coo." There is no reason for this, because the correct pronunciation
"bow-coo" (bow as in bow and arrow) is perfectly pronounceable in English.
Likewise, I know it is difficult to pronounce "franc?ais" (? signifying the
sedille under the c) properly because the back-of-the-throat 'r' pronunciation
does not exist in English, and nor does the nasal 'an.' But "frahnsay" is
much better than "francase."
Dan Harkless
dhar...@bonnie.ics.uci.edu
Daniel Lee Harkless
No, "coupe" is pronounced correctly here. It's not pronounced "cowp."
Dan Harkless
dhar...@bonnie.ics.uci.edu
Daniel Lee Harkless
>In article <11...@skye.cs.ed.ac.uk>, br...@cs.ed.ac.uk (Glenn Bruns) writes:
>|> A funny thing about the pronunciation of French-derived words
>|> in the US and Britain is that some words, such as "fillet", are
>|> pronounced according to French in the US but not Britain; while
>|> words such as "coupe" are just the opposite.
>|>
>|> --
>|> Glenn Bruns
>|> Laboratory for Foundations of Computer Science
>|> University of Edinburgh
> A funnier thing is the tendency for some people to give what they think
>is a French pronunciation for a word which may or may not be French.
> A common example in the United States is for-tay for forte
> (=a strong point, not the musical direction). I have also heard
Yeah, but it's Italian and that's still the proper pronunciation.
Right?
Dan Harkless
dhar...@bonnie.ics.uci.edu
Natalie Maynor
> Sure they *can*! It's just a question of whether or not they *will*.
>There is no biological difference between people from different cultures that
>allows only the natives to pronounce their language properly. It's just that
>people are used to their own languages' pronunciation rules, and they're too
>lazy or too indifferent to learn the rudiments of another set of such.
Has anybody suggested that a *biological* difference "allows only natives to
pronounce their language properly"?? True, people are used to their own
languages' pronunciation rules. But inability to differentiate and
vocalize phonemes in a new language is not necessarily a matter of laziness
or indifference. At infancy, any child can acquire any language; at the age
of two or three, any child can acquire a second language without effort; at
the age of ten, a child can acquire a second language more easily than his
or her parents; at the age of fifteen, things get shakier; at the age of
forty, it's tough -- for some people impossible in the sense of acquiring
the phonology. An infant exercises all possible phones and phonemes in
the babbling stage. Those not needed are ultimately lost. Retrieving them
is at best difficult, in many cases impossible. It's the old "use it or
lose it" idea.
--
--Natalie (n...@ra.msstate.edu)
Natalie Maynor
> For instance, the word "route", which started all of
>this. The oo-as-in-boot sound exists is English, so why not pronounce the word
>using this correct pronunciation? The "rowt" pronunciation only came about due
On what basis are you deeming this the "correct" pronunciation? What is a
"correct" pronunciation?
--
--Natalie (n...@ra.msstate.edu)
Jim Scobbie
> But "frahnsay" is much better than "francase."
Damn right. I'm having awful trouble pronouncing all the Spanish here, but
I'll keep trying. Language is primarily oral, so we accomodate French
francais to English "frahnsay" orally --- the problem is for those who
read words first without hearing them. But this is a general problem
of which foreign words, since there is a certain systematicity there,
are actually easier than idiosyncratic English words, like the wee town
near where I came from called Milngavie ("mull-gai")
[NOTE: please don't fill up the group with *your* favcourite funny town,
I thought of it first nya nya and everyone reading this can recall one
for themselves without you! END OF SNOTTY NOTE]
The word 'restaurant' is typically pronounced in Scotland as if it were
written 'restaurang', which is much better IMHO than pronouncing the 't'.
=========================================================================
My advice, if you want it, is to use the sounds of English to approximate
the sound of the word in its original langage, not to read it aloud as if
it *were* English, nor (which is far far worse) to attempt a foreign
pronunciation. Of course, there will be exceptions, there always are.--
michael j yalkut
says:
>I can't understand half the things that are said when we talk
>about words rhyming. Is there some way we can write things so
>that we (Southern US, Northern US, Candaian, UK, Australian, NZ, etc.)
>can all know what is being said?
Your 'pronounciation' key is a valiant effort to standardize the methods of
describing the sounds of different words. However, it fails to truly unify
the different groups by the very fact that in the United States, at least,
your list should properly be called a 'pronunciation' key! :)
Michael J Yalkut.
Bill Cole
Glenn Bruns writes:
|> >A funny thing about the pronunciation of French-derived words
|> >in the US and Britain is that some words, such as "fillet", are
|> >pronounced according to French in the US but not Britain; while
|> >words such as "coupe" are just the opposite.
Daniel Lee Harkless replies:
|> No, "coupe" is pronounced correctly here. It's not pronounced "cowp."
Not necessarily, Dan.
Cars are coupes (coops) or coupes (coopays).
An overthrow of a government is still a coupe (coo), though.
/Bill
Peter Lamb
>In article <1991May22.1...@dg-rtp.dg.com>,
>No, the overthrow of a government is a coup. This has no 'e' at the end.
>andrew
Cars are coup\'es (coopays; only reasonable pronunciation if the accent
is given) or coupes (coopays or coops), depending on what you think you
should do when you discard an accent. The Shorter Oxford (1979?) has
only coup\'e, my fairly old Oxford Concise marks coupes (coops) as
American usage, and insists on that pronunciation for that spelling.
Webster-Miriam Collegiate (7th ed) admits both (coops) and (coopays) as
pronunciations for the unaccented spelling. The Oxford Advanced
Learner's insists on the spelling coup\'e for horse-drawn carriages,
and only gives coupe (coop) as a US variant for two-seater automobiles.
The Oxford Concise has a separate entry for the unaccented coupe (coop),
as an ice cream sundae, or a cup suitable for putting one in.
--
Peter Lamb
uucp: uunet!mcsun!ethz!prl eunet: p...@iis.ethz.ch Tel: +411 256 5241
Integrated Systems Laboratory
ETH-Zentrum, 8092 Zurich
Andrew Dunstan
No, the overthrow of a government is a coup. This has no 'e' at the end.
andrew
Chuck Coleman
>An overthrow of a government is still a coupe (coo), though.
That should be "coup" as in "coup d'etat" or "coup de grace",
literally "stroke of state" and "stroke of grace."
Chuck Coleman "Sorry, no concluding witticism"
School: Work:
Center for Study of Public Choice NPA Data Services, Inc.
George Mason University 1424 16th St. N.W. Suite 700
4400 University Drive Washington, DC 20036
Fairfax, VA 22030 (202) 265-7685
BITNET: ccoleman@GMUVAX
Internet: ccol...@gmuvax2.gmu.edu
Daniel Lee Harkless
Well, I had never heard the "coopay" (mis)pronunciation. It's dead
wrong, though. Just a case of silly people looking at it and going, "Okay.
It's French. The last 'e' must be pronounced 'ay'." This would be the case
if there were an "accent aigu" (right-leaning accent) over the 'e', but there
is not; not in France or here (in other words, there has not been an accent
dropped). However, there is no accent and the correct pronunciation is
"coop." That's really annoying when people think a foreign word isn't foreign
enough and "foreignize" it some more to their perceived notions of how it
should be pronounced in the foreign language in question.
Dan Harkless
dhar...@bonnie.ics.uci.edu
Daniel Lee Harkless
Oops. One thing I forgot to mention. It's spelled "coup." You got
the pronunciation right, though.
Dan Harkless
dhar...@bonnie.ics.uci.edu
Jean P. Legrand
>It's French. The last 'e' must be pronounced 'ay'." This would be the case
>if there were an "accent aigu" (right-leaning accent) over the 'e', but there
>is not; not in France or here (in other words, there has not been an accent
>dropped). However, there is no accent and the correct pronunciation is
>"coop." That's really annoying when people think a foreign word isn't foreign
>enough and "foreignize" it some more to their perceived notions of how it
>should be pronounced in the foreign language in question.
>Dan Harkless
>dhar...@bonnie.ics.uci.edu
Dan hit the nail on the head. Another (better) example is the
(mis)pronunciation of the french article `le' (meaning `the') as `lay'!
hmmm....maybe it's wishful thinking :-)
--
John Patrick Lestrade, PhD
Department of Physics and Astronomy
Mississippi State University, MS 39762
Voice: (601) 325-2806 Fax: (601) 325-8898
Rowan Hughes
Apparently in England, early 1800's, the word was pronounced rowt, the
same as the American way. However routing (rowting) was rural vernacular
for what farm yard animals do naturally. Hence to clean minded people
the word became root. Oddly enough here in Oz, root is slang for sex
(between humans); there may be a connection ... "I feel rooted" ,
"lets have a root" , "this keyboard is rooted".
Its a laugh watching American TV shows where the cheer leader
is "rooting" for the whole football team.
Also I've heard that the US word "guy" comes from the English/Scottish
slang "geyser" (guyser ?) for a man. Any comments ?
--
Rowan Hughes James Cook University
Marine Modelling Unit Townsville, Australia.
Dept. Civil and Systems Engineering cs...@marlin.jcu.edu.au
Daniel Lee Harkless
>In article <1991May22.1...@dg-rtp.dg.com> co...@farmhand.rtp.dg.com (Bill Cole) writes:
>>
>>Glenn Bruns writes:
>>|> >A funny thing about the pronunciation of French-derived words
>>|> >in the US and Britain is that some words, such as "fillet", are
>>|> >pronounced according to French in the US but not Britain; while
>>|> >words such as "coupe" are just the opposite.
>>
>>Daniel Lee Harkless replies:
>>|> No, "coupe" is pronounced correctly here. It's not pronounced "cowp."
>>
>>Not necessarily, Dan.
>>Cars are coupes (coops) or coupes (coopays).
>>An overthrow of a government is still a coupe (coo), though.
>
> Well, I had never heard the "coopay" (mis)pronunciation. It's dead
>wrong, though. Just a case of silly people looking at it and going, "Okay.
>It's French. The last 'e' must be pronounced 'ay'." This would be the case
>if there were an "accent aigu" (right-leaning accent) over the 'e', but there
>is not; not in France or here (in other words, there has not been an accent
Gee, is my face rouge. Sorry, I have been informed by a francophone
that there was indeed originally an accent aigu, as it meant that part of the
car had been "cut." Sorry, "coopay" is right. My mistake.
Dan Harkless
dhar...@bonnie.ics.uci.edu
Robert Craig Harman
(coup-coupe-coupe' discussion omitted at discretion of current informant)
> Well, I had never heard the "coopay" (mis)pronunciation. It's dead
>wrong, though. Just a case of silly people looking at it and going, "Okay.
>It's French. The last 'e' must be pronounced 'ay'." This would be the case
>if there were an "accent aigu" (right-leaning accent) over the 'e', but there
>is not; not in France or here (in other words, there has not been an accent
>dropped). However, there is no accent and the correct pronunciation is
>"coop." That's really annoying when people think a foreign word isn't foreign
>enough and "foreignize" it some more to their perceived notions of how it
>should be pronounced in the foreign language in question.
Or conversely when people know a bit of a foreign tongue and don't cross-check
their etymologies. I reprint from Webster's 7th Collegiate Dictionary, (C)1963:
cou-pe'
or coupe \k:u-'pa^-, 2 often 'k:up\ n
[F coupe', fr. pp. of couper to cut]
(1834)
1: a four-wheeled closed horse-drawn carriage for two persons inside
with an outside seat for the driver in front
2 usu coupe
a: a closed 2-door automobile for usu. two persons
2b: a usu. closed 2-door automobile with a full-width rear seat
Thus, the "coop" pronunciation is the aberrant one. The "foreignization"
never occurred and coupe' as "coo-pay" is quite accurate, if not dated.
craig
no .sig
go .fig
Roland Hutchinson
>In <1991May17.2...@unlinfo.unl.edu> gr...@hoss.unl.edu (Lig Lury Jr.) writes:
>>b...@u02.svl.cdc.com (Brian Scearce) writes:
>>>dhar...@Bonnie.ICS.UCI.EDU (Dan Harkless) writes:
>>>>gre...@gambia.crd.ge.com (ben a green) writes:
>>>Interesting side note: there's a city in the San Francisco Bay area
>>>named "Vallejo". The English pronunciation would be "val-EE-jo",
>>>the Spanish would be "vie-AY-ho", but the accepted pronunciation
>>>here is "vall-AY-ho". So nobody's right.
>>Hmm, from what Spanish I know, I believe your Spanish pronunciation is
>>wrong. You wrote the pronunciation for viejo. You want "va-yay-ho".
>>Also, I believe the accepted would be more close to "val-LAY-ho". I'll
>>have to ask my sister when I attend her wedding in San Francisco.
>In Spanish, "ll" is pronounced as in the English word "million."
Only in "Castillian" Spanish. (The dialect spoken in Spain,
particularly in Castille.) Most American (i.e. western-hemispehere)
varieties (and the European dialects from which they derive) pronounce
"ll" like English "y". So "va(i)-yay-ho" it is, in Californian Spanish.
("h" gutteral, like German "ch", and "yay" without a diphthong).
And it'ss "vuh-LAY-yo" in Californian English, by the way, at least in
my experience. ("uh" is meant to be a schwa, and the y of "yo" is
very lightly sounded--just the end of the diphthongal glide of "AY",
as in "DAY".)
But then I'm a native speaker of *Southern* Californian, so, I mean,
like, what do I know?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roland Hutchinson Visiting Specialist/Early Music
Internet: rhut...@pilot.njin.net Department of Music
Bitnet: rhutchin@NJIN Montclair State College
Upper Montclair, NJ 07043
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Engholm Daniel M
of the name "Vallejo" deleted]
I don't know about all the other dialects of Spanish, but I am taking
a Spanish class taught by a native Peruvian. According to her, the Spanish
letter "ll" is pronounce sort of like "ayjay" but with a soft "j." When
in a word, the letter makes a soft "j" sound. For instance, armadillo is
REALLY pronounce something like "ahrm ah dee jo" and amarillo (which is the
Spanish word for the color yellow) goes something like this...
"ah mah ree jo."
--
From my Unix (tm) work- | Stuck out here in the middle of Iowa with the
station to yours. | 'buttaters. ..or is this Idaho? Ohio????
__________________________|____________________________________________________
Don't take life too seriously or you'll never get out of it alive. --Bugs Bunny
JOSEPH T CHEW
I usually heard it called "vuh-Lay-o" when I lived there. Incidentally,
despite its name, it is not at all Hispanic. Mostly WASPS and blacks,
with a rising influx of Southeast Asians. The WASPS appear to be
Midwest and Southwest in origin ("Okies" is a dirty word, but note also
Steinbeck's references to "Valley Joe").
In Spanish, I'd have pronounced it "vay-Yea-ho," but then again, I learned
Spanish in Alabama from a teacher with a Southern accent...
Joe
"The pallid pimp of the dead-line/The enervate of the pen" --Rob't Service
Ruth Milner
>
>>In Spanish, "ll" is pronounced as in the English word "million."
>
>Only in "Castillian" Spanish. (The dialect spoken in Spain,
>particularly in Castille.) Most American (i.e. western-hemispehere)
>varieties (and the European dialects from which they derive) pronounce
>"ll" like English "y". So "va(i)-yay-ho" it is, in Californian Spanish.
>("h" gutteral, like German "ch", and "yay" without a diphthong).
Since we're temporarily in alt.pronunciation.spanish :-), I'll throw my two
cents' worth in. (For what it's worth, I studied (Spanish) Spanish for three
years and spent a summer in central Spain, and my brother lived there for
more than two years (Granada and Barcelona, where he learned Catalan as well).)
Even Castilian Spanish "ll" doesn't pronounce the "l" sound at all except in
the name of the letter itself (it is a separate letter in the Spanish
alphabet): "elye". Sometimes it is pronounced more like a buzzing j, "zh",
which is why Mallorca is also sometimes spelled Majorca. But "Malyorca" -
uh-uh.
Also, it's the "g", when followed by "e" or "i", which produces the guttural
German "ch" sound. The "j" is generally a simple breath. So, Jorge (Spanish
for George), would be "hor'-chay", one of the most difficult to pronounce.
I don't speak Portuguese, but I think there may be a letter in the Portuguese
alphabet which *is* pronounced as in "million" (lh?). But I don't make any
promises :-).
Incidentally, the town I live in, Socorro, is actually Spanish for "help"
(or "succor", if you prefer the same root). But even the resident Hispanic
population pronounces it with the emphasis on the middle syllable, rather
than the first (there used to be an accent there). So Californian English
speakers aren't the only ones who change Spanish names.
Here endeth the lesson :-) ...
--
Ruth Milner
Systems Manager NRAO/VLA Socorro NM
Computing Division Head rmi...@zia.aoc.nrao.edu
bai...@hmivax.humgen.upenn.edu
>>>|> >in the US and Britain is that some words, such as "fillet", are
>>>|> >pronounced according to French in the US but not Britain; while
Given that the discussion at hand considers origins, I feel compelled to
mention that the word above would best (IMHO) be spelled 'filet'. (For the
real purists: I'm omitting an accent, but its inclusion is *very* uncommon in
English.) If I recall correctly, 'fillet' is a distinct, though uncommonly
used, word which refers to a sort of head band. I ask the indulgence of those
pragmatists who are willing to consider 'fillet' acceptable by virtue of
frequent (?) usage.
>>>Cars are coupes (coops) or coupes (coopays).
>>>An overthrow of a government is still a coupe (coo), though.
I think that, in most if not all instances, the overthrow of a government is
still referred to as a 'coup'.
Correction of any oversights welcome...
Charles Bailey
bai...@hmivax.humgen.upenn.edu