wish you would have

[navi]

Are these both correct:

1-I wish you HAD told me earlier.
2-I wish you WOULD HAVE told me earlier.

Is there any difference in their meanings?

Does "2" imply that you were hard-headed not to tell me earlier? That you had a choice but ill-advisedly chose not to tell me?

Gratefully,
Navi.

[Jerry Friedman]

On Nov 26, 5:12 pm, navi <lorca1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Are these both correct:
>
> 1-I wish you HAD told me earlier.
> 2-I wish you WOULD HAVE told me earlier.

1 is standard. 2 is not, but it's very common in colloquial American
English. People here say it's pretty much unused outside North
America.

> Is there any difference in their meanings?
>
> Does "2" imply that you were hard-headed not to tell me earlier? That you had a choice but ill-advisedly chose not to tell me?

Not as far as I can tell. Some people (including me) say 1 in all
circumstances, some Americans say 2 in all circumstances, and maybe
some Americans switch between them depending on formality.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Guy Barry]

"Jerry Friedman" wrote in message
news:6fe74bdc-802e-4012...@b9g2000pba.googlegroups.com...

> On Nov 26, 5:12 pm, navi <lorca1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Are these both correct:
>
> > 1-I wish you HAD told me earlier.
> > 2-I wish you WOULD HAVE told me earlier.

> 1 is standard. 2 is not, but it's very common in colloquial American
> English. People here say it's pretty much unused outside North
> America.

Previously, if I had heard (2) I would normally have assumed that it came
from a non-native speaker. I was quite surprised to learn that some
Americans spoke like that.

--
Guy Barry

[James Hogg]

I pity the poor immigrant, who wishes he would've stayed home.

--
James

[Eric Walker]

I imagine the form evolved from an effort to make the element of will
dominant, implying that the failure to timely reveal all was not an
accident or whim of fate, but rather a willed act of folly on the part of
the person being addressed. I would think it equivalent to:

1a-I wish you had chosen to tell me earlier.


--
Cordially,
Eric Walker

[tony cooper]

I'm sure I've used "would have" in aue, and been chastised for it.
Also "would 've". That comes easier to me than "had" in that
sentence. I try to avoid it in aue, but make no effort to avoid it in
other situations.

I am a native English speaker.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

[Guy Barry]

"tony cooper" wrote in message
news:ooh9b89rhr5mkd5st...@4ax.com...

> On Tue, 27 Nov 2012 06:58:14 -0000, "Guy Barry"
> <guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

[ (1): "I wish you had told me earlier"
(2): "I wish you would have told me earlier"]

> > Previously, if I had heard (2) I would normally have assumed that it
> > came
> > from a non-native speaker. I was quite surprised to learn that some
> > Americans spoke like that.

> I'm sure I've used "would have" in aue, and been chastised for it.
> Also "would 've". That comes easier to me than "had" in that
> sentence. I try to avoid it in aue, but make no effort to avoid it in
> other situations.

As I've mentioned previously, there's a form that many British speakers use
which is often regarded as incorrect, namely "I wish you had have told me
earlier". In practice it's often hard to distinguish this from (2) because
it gets abbreviated to "I wish you'd have told me earlier", although the
distinction is clear in the negative ("hadn't have" versus "wouldn't have").

For anyone who doesn't want to offend people's linguistic sensibilities it's
probably best to stick with (1).

--
Guy Barry

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Tue, 27 Nov 2012 14:16:43 -0000, "Guy Barry"

Anyway, all these are perfection personified in comparison with versions
using "of" in place of "have" or "'ve".

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[tony cooper]

On Tue, 27 Nov 2012 14:16:43 -0000, "Guy Barry"

I don't know about you, but other than the people here in aue and aeu,
I don't know anyone with offendable linguistic sensibilities. My
linguistic sensibilities are so blunted that I never, in person,
correct or challenge anyone's usage if I can figure out what they are
trying to say. Or, maybe I'm just polite.

[Guy Barry]

"tony cooper" wrote in message

news:mso9b8l71fvs3m081...@4ax.com...

> I don't know about you, but other than the people here in aue and aeu,
> I don't know anyone with offendable linguistic sensibilities.

Can you be sure?

--
Guy Barry

[Katy Jennison]

But do you ever yell at the TV or the radio when someone who ought to
know better commits a ghastly solecism? I do, and not just at obvious
grammatical errors but also at pronunciations like "goverment" or
"temporily" or, oh, all sorts of other examples which my
fellow-radio-4-listeners will readily supply.

--
Katy Jennison

[LFS]

Goodness, yes. My particular irritants are "bored of" and "renumeration"
which a surprising number of people say when talking about remuneration.
For a time I had to work with a senior person in the City on issues
relating to directors' remuneration: she was an expert in the area but
she always mispronounced it. There was no way I could have corrected her
and I was very relieved when she moved on to other things.

--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)

[Marius Hancu]

On Nov 27, 11:48 am, LFS <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
> On 27/11/2012 16:37, Katy Jennison wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 27/11/2012 16:04, tony cooper wrote:
> >> On Tue, 27 Nov 2012 14:16:43 -0000, "Guy Barry"

> >> <guy.ba...@blueyonder.co.uk>  wrote:

An anonymous letter (to her) might have helped:-)

Marius Hancu

[tony cooper]

Oh, yes, but since I appear regularly in aue and aeu, I consider
myself to be a person with offendable linguistic sensibilities. It is
just when I'm face-to-face with the offender that I remain silent.

I often watch "The People's Court" and find myself counting the
"like", "whatever", and "basically" uses with mounting fury. Also the
instances of "I borrowed him $50" or "He borrowed me $50".

[Mike L]

I often find sentences containing "temporally" so funny that I'm
prepared to forgive them.

>>
>> Goodness, yes. My particular irritants are "bored of" and "renumeration"
>> which a surprising number of people say when talking about remuneration.
>> For a time I had to work with a senior person in the City on issues
>> relating to directors' remuneration: she was an expert in the area but
>> she always mispronounced it. There was no way I could have corrected her
>> and I was very relieved when she moved on to other things.
>
>An anonymous letter (to her) might have helped:-)
>

Anominous letter would have been the nucular option.

Isn't it terrible about the flooding at Cheeksbury? I checked, and the
place has been washed right off the map.

--
Mike.

[Robert Bannister]

1. is English
2. is wrong
so the difference in meaning is that the person who told the second way
might not know what he or she is talking about.

--
Robert Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

I wish you hadn't written that.

--
Robert Bannister

[Marius Hancu]

Nucular??

> Isn't it terrible about the flooding at Cheeksbury? I checked, and the
> place has been washed right off the map.

Marius Hancu

[Guy Barry]

"Robert Bannister" wrote in message
news:ahl889...@mid.individual.net...

> On 27/11/12 8:12 AM, navi wrote:

> > 1-I wish you HAD told me earlier.
> > 2-I wish you WOULD HAVE told me earlier.

> 1. is English
> 2. is wrong

(2) is acceptable in some American dialects (Tony has told us he uses it
sometimes), so I'd be very cautious about labelling it as "wrong". It
certainly sounds unnatural to me though.

--
Guy Barry

[Marius Hancu]

2 is also valid in some New Zealand dialects:
http://tinyurl.com/co3zu9t

Marius Hancu

[Marius Hancu]

On Nov 27, 1:58 am, "Guy Barry" <guy.ba...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> "Jerry Friedman"  wrote in message
>
> news:6fe74bdc-802e-4012...@b9g2000pba.googlegroups.com...
>
> > On Nov 26, 5:12 pm, navi <lorca1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > Are these both correct:
>
> > > 1-I wish you HAD told me earlier.
> > > 2-I wish you WOULD HAVE told me earlier.
> > 1 is standard.  2 is not, but it's very common in colloquial American
> > English.  People here say it's pretty much unused outside North
> > America.
>
> Previously, if I had heard (2) I would normally have assumed that it came
> from a non-native speaker.

Indeed. See this BrE grammar, item C:
http://tinyurl.com/c7nqo2v

> I was quite surprised to learn that some
> Americans spoke like that.

Marius Hancu

[tony cooper]

I make no pretense that my usage is acceptable. If someone here
corrects me, I'll make no objection.

Somewhere along the line in growing up, I picked up that formation as
natural. No one corrected me, so it's now an instinctive phrasing.
It's far too late for me to change, but I sometimes use the phrasing
in a posting, see it, and change it.

Certainly, no one in the sphere of people I deal with outside of this
group would notice.

[Katy Jennison]

By now, I simply think of it as a Tonyism, and feel almost affectionate
towards it.

--
Katy Jennison

[Mike L]

On Tue, 27 Nov 2012 17:56:42 -0800 (PST), Marius Hancu
<marius...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Nov 27, 5:57 pm, Mike L <n...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Tue, 27 Nov 2012 09:19:45 -0800 (PST), Marius Hancu
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> <marius.ha...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >On Nov 27, 11:48 am, LFS <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
>> >> On 27/11/2012 16:37, Katy Jennison wrote:

[...]

>>
>> >> > But do you ever yell at the TV or the radio when someone who ought to
>> >> > know better commits a ghastly solecism?  I do, and not just at obvious
>> >> > grammatical errors but also at pronunciations like "goverment" or
>> >> > "temporily" or, oh, all sorts of other examples which my
>> >> > fellow-radio-4-listeners will readily supply.
>>
>> I often find sentences containing "temporally" so funny that I'm
>> prepared to forgive them.
>>
>>
>>
>> >> Goodness, yes. My particular irritants are "bored of" and "renumeration"
>> >> which a surprising number of people say when talking about remuneration.
>> >> For a time I had to work with a senior person in the City on issues
>> >> relating to directors' remuneration: she was an expert in the area but
>> >> she always mispronounced it. There was no way I could have corrected her
>> >> and I was very relieved when she moved on to other things.
>>
>> >An anonymous letter (to her) might have helped:-)
>>
>> Anominous letter would have been the nucular option.
>
>Nucular??

"Renumeration." "Anominous". I wanted to get a hittopotamus in there,
but it wouldn't fit, so I got bored of trying.

>
>> Isn't it terrible about the flooding at Cheeksbury? I checked, and the
>> place has been washed right off the map.
>

--
Mike.

[Joe Fineman]

Most Americans by now, I think.

My dialect is in between. I would be willing to countenance 2 if the
emphasis were on your willingness to tell me earlier. Compare:

Present: If you go, I will go.
Past: If you had gone, I would have gone.

Present: If you will go [= agree or are willing to go], I will go.
Past (according to me): If you would have gone, I would have gone.
--
--- Joe Fineman jo...@verizon.net

||: Traits as well as organisms can be parasitic. :||

[Guy Barry]

"Joe Fineman" wrote in message news:umwy1l...@verizon.net...

> "Guy Barry" <guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> writes:

> > Previously, if I had heard (2) I would normally have assumed that it
> > came from a non-native speaker. I was quite surprised to learn that
> > some Americans spoke like that.

> Most Americans by now, I think.

Really? I was under the impression it was a non-standard usage.

> My dialect is in between. I would be willing to countenance 2 if the
> emphasis were on your willingness to tell me earlier. Compare:

> Present: If you go, I will go.
> Past: If you had gone, I would have gone.

> Present: If you will go [= agree or are willing to go], I will go.
> Past (according to me): If you would have gone, I would have gone.

That certainly makes sense to me, in the sense "if you had been willing to
go". I can't imagine using it myself, though.

--
Guy Barry

[navi]

Thank you all very much.

I have to say that I heard it in an American TV series and Tony was not in it! So it cannot be deemed a Tonyism. The usage is probably widespread. In the series it was spoken by a well-educated person who was sober at the time of saying it!

I too thought it was either wrong or a special usage which gave a particular shade to the meaning (as my initial question attests).

Thank you all again.
Navi.

[Jerry Friedman]

On Nov 28, 11:06 pm, "Guy Barry" <guy.ba...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> "Joe Fineman"  wrote in messagenews:umwy1l...@verizon.net...

> > "Guy Barry" <guy.ba...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes:
> > > Previously, if I had heard (2) I would normally have assumed that it
> > > came from a non-native speaker.  I was quite surprised to learn that
> > > some Americans spoke like that.
> > Most Americans by now, I think.
>
> Really?  I was under the impression it was a non-standard usage.

...

I am too--that is, you won't see it often in edited text--but it's
extremely common. I can't argue with "most".

--
Jerry Friedman