Mary Poppins traduced

[Peter T. Daniels]

I learned the word "pismire" from *Mary Poppins in the Park,* the last of
the four books (1952), but the first of them that I read because it was what
happened to be in the library that day, a few years after it was published,
and it was just about the only detail I always remembered.

It was clear that the set I bought last week was an American edition, because
the quotation marks are " " not ' ', and I was, I now realize suspiciously,
not caught up by too many Briticisms (though there are some); but then I came
to p. 150 and read "I stepped over every ant and beetle for fear it might be
one of my princes." Yet on p. 156 there's a "colour," and in the next chapter
Jane makes figurines of "plasticine," which I recalled was also new to me (we
call the stuff "clay" or when being picky "modeling clay").

Traduttore, traditore.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

And your point is, what? That you've only just realized that British
English isn't exactly the same as American English? Incidentally, it's
far from unknown for British publishers to use double quotation marks.


--
athel

[Peter T. Daniels]

That there is no hint in this edition that anything other than punctuation
has been altered.

In 1952? In 1934?

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

It is a specifc type of "modeling clay" which actually contains no clay.
Plasticine doesn't dry out and harden. It remains malleable.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasticine#Uses


>Traduttore, traditore.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Tony Cooper]

Plasticine is readily available in the US. I have an acquaintance who
uses it to create figures for use in his photographic hobby. He does
dioramas with plasticine figures that are the subject of a series of
individual photos with the figure changed and moved slightly in each
frame. In the finished product, it looks like the figures move like a
living creature would move.

It's just a hobby for him, for the entertainment of his grandchildren.



--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

[Default User]

Peter T. Daniels wrote:


> It was clear that the set I bought last week was an American edition,
> because the quotation marks are " " not ' ', and I was, I now realize
> suspiciously, not caught up by too many Briticisms (though there are
> some); but then I came to p. 150 and read "I stepped over every ant
> and beetle for fear it might be one of my princes." Yet on p. 156
> there's a "colour," and in the next chapter Jane makes figurines of
> "plasticine," which I recalled was also new to me (we call the stuff
> "clay" or when being picky "modeling clay").

I have been reading the novel Thin Air by UK author Richard Morgan,
noir SF set on Mars. The US editon not only changed the punctuation,
but the spelling as well. So it has "color" and "center" etc.

I didn't even know that he was British. There were some word choices
that didn't seem like something a US author would use. The one that
made me check was a slang term for cigarettes, which I don't recall
now. It wasn't "fag", but something totally unfamiliar to me.

He also used "smolder" as a noun, as in "streaming slurry and smolder
from . . . "

One of the advantages to an e-reader is the built-in dictionary that
makes it easy to look up words.


Brian

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

I've never met that in BrE. It seems to be this sense from the OED:

smoky vapour; the result of smouldering or slow combustion.

The most recent quotation is dated 1862. The entry has this note:

Discontinued about (or shortly after) 1600, and revived in the 19th
cent.

Two spellings are given: "smoulder" and "smolder". The latter is marked
"US".

>
>One of the advantages to an e-reader is the built-in dictionary that
>makes it easy to look up words.
>
>
>Brian

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

Interesting. I knew that plasticine is used in some animated movies (as
mentioned in the Wiki entry) but I didn't know that anyone did the same
as a hobby.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Saturday, December 22, 2018 at 1:58:38 PM UTC-5, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Sat, 22 Dec 2018 17:47:44 +0000, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
> <ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
> >On Sat, 22 Dec 2018 07:57:48 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
> ><gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

> >>I learned the word "pismire" from *Mary Poppins in the Park,* the last of
> >>the four books (1952), but the first of them that I read because it was what
> >>happened to be in the library that day, a few years after it was published,
> >>and it was just about the only detail I always remembered.
> >>It was clear that the set I bought last week was an American edition, because
> >>the quotation marks are " " not ' ', and I was, I now realize suspiciously,
> >>not caught up by too many Briticisms (though there are some); but then I came
> >>to p. 150 and read "I stepped over every ant and beetle for fear it might be
> >>one of my princes." Yet on p. 156 there's a "colour," and in the next chapter
> >>Jane makes figurines of "plasticine," which I recalled was also new to me (we
> >>call the stuff "clay" or when being picky "modeling clay").
> >It is a specifc type of "modeling clay" which actually contains no clay.
> >Plasticine doesn't dry out and harden. It remains malleable.

Just like the clay we played with in school.

> >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasticine#Uses
>
> Plasticine is readily available in the US.

As of 1952?

(I won't bother explaining why I picked that date.)

> I have an acquaintance who
> uses it to create figures for use in his photographic hobby. He does
> dioramas with plasticine figures that are the subject of a series of
> individual photos with the figure changed and moved slightly in each
> frame. In the finished product, it looks like the figures move like a
> living creature would move.

That's called "stop-motion photography" and has been used in many very
successful feature movies. Recently, Wallace & Grommit; earlier, Gumby;
perhaps contemporaneously, all those epics featuring the work of Ray
Harryhausen.

Here's a lot more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_stop_motion_films

[Tony Cooper]

On Sat, 22 Dec 2018 23:55:01 +0000, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"

He started out making animated gifs with just a few frames and then
went the full route. He's been doing dioramas (Civil War battle
scenes) for years and this combines the two hobbies. Well, three: 1)
dioramas, 2) plasticine figures, and 3) stop-action photography.

[soup]

I use " " and ' '

"" when quoting someone ~ HE SAID " CATS ARE BETTER THAN DOGS"

' ' when using a well known phrase ~ HE WAS 'THREE SHEETS TO THE WIND'
or not really the word to use.
Such as when talking of what someone 'said' in a usenet post (They
didn't really say anything they typed it).

[Peter Moylan]

On 23/12/18 06:20, Default User wrote:

> I didn't even know that he was British. There were some word choices
> that didn't seem like something a US author would use. The one that
> made me check was a slang term for cigarettes, which I don't recall
> now. It wasn't "fag", but something totally unfamiliar to me.

Durry?

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia

[Tony Cooper]

On Mon, 24 Dec 2018 03:25:10 +1100, Peter Moylan
<pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>On 23/12/18 06:20, Default User wrote:
>
>> I didn't even know that he was British. There were some word choices
>> that didn't seem like something a US author would use. The one that
>> made me check was a slang term for cigarettes, which I don't recall
>> now. It wasn't "fag", but something totally unfamiliar to me.
>
>Durry?

The one that stopped me was "roll-up" when it was in a sentence like
"He went outside for a roll-up". For some reason I read it as "roll
mop" and thought he went outside for a herring snack.

Hand-rolled cigarettes are not unknown here, but I don't think we use
"roll-up" to describe them.

I knew a guy who used to call mentholated cigarettes "Spuds". That
was a very popular brand in the US years ago, and he used the term for
all mentholated brands.

[HVS]

On Mon, 24 Dec 2018 03:25:10 +1100, Peter Moylan
<pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

> On 23/12/18 06:20, Default User wrote:


> > I didn't even know that he was British. There were some word
choices
> > that didn't seem like something a US author would use. The one
that
> > made me check was a slang term for cigarettes, which I don't
recall
> > now. It wasn't "fag", but something totally unfamiliar to me.

> Durry?

Gasper?

[Madrigal Gurneyhalt]

Much as I like a good guessing game, with at least 50 possible
terms available (and that's just the ones I know) this could take
some time!

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Sunday, December 23, 2018 at 12:01:12 PM UTC-5, Tony Cooper wrote:

[cigarette slang]

> The one that stopped me was "roll-up" when it was in a sentence like
> "He went outside for a roll-up". For some reason I read it as "roll
> mop" and thought he went outside for a herring snack.
>
> Hand-rolled cigarettes are not unknown here, but I don't think we use
> "roll-up" to describe them.

"Joint" is probably still the most common.

> I knew a guy who used to call mentholated cigarettes "Spuds". That
> was a very popular brand in the US years ago, and he used the term for
> all mentholated brands.

How does a mentholated cigarette differ from a menthol cigarette?

"Mentholated" is said of aromatic chest rubs and such.

[spuorg...@gowanhill.com]

On Sunday, 23 December 2018 17:35:02 UTC, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > Hand-rolled cigarettes are not unknown here, but I don't think we use
> > "roll-up" to describe them.
> "Joint" is probably still the most common.

"joint" in the UK would suggest there is more than just tobacco in the cigarette :-)

Owain

[Default User]

It's difficult to say how the author spelled it, other than getting a
UK edition. The spelling had been largely converted to American usage.

The e-reader dictionary (I don't recall which one) had something close
to:

noun
noun: smoulder; plural noun: smoulders; noun: smolder; plural noun:
smolders

1.
smoke coming from a fire that is burning slowly without a flame.
"the last acrid smolder of his cigarette"


Brian

[Default User]

I was able to find it. It was "snout". In my e-reader dictionary that
had:

2.
informal•British
a cigarette.


Brian

[Tony Cooper]

On Sun, 23 Dec 2018 09:35:00 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Sunday, December 23, 2018 at 12:01:12 PM UTC-5, Tony Cooper wrote:
>
>[cigarette slang]
>> The one that stopped me was "roll-up" when it was in a sentence like
>> "He went outside for a roll-up". For some reason I read it as "roll
>> mop" and thought he went outside for a herring snack.
>>
>> Hand-rolled cigarettes are not unknown here, but I don't think we use
>> "roll-up" to describe them.
>
>"Joint" is probably still the most common.

Perhaps in Jersey City, but not to the rest of us. A "joint" is
marijuana. Some people hand-roll cigarettes with regular tobacco. At
one time, it was common for people to own a little machine that was
used to make cigarettes using cigarette paper and a pouch of loose
tobacco.

https://www.rubylane.com/item/815747-jk226/Vintage-Cigarette-Roller-Brown-Williamson-Tobacco

The old Western movies often had a cowboy hand-rolling a cigarette
with the string closure for the pouch of tobacco clenched in his
teeth.

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/361836151289071137/

[Default User]

One of favorite episodes of the US TV show "Community" was stop-motion.
At least it seemed that way to one character:


Professor Ian Duncan : Abed, how many fingers am I holding up, and more
importantly, are they still made of clay?

Abed Nadir : Three, and I told you, it's not clay. We're silicone
bodies with ball-and-socket armatures.

Professor Ian Duncan : Very interesting, and publishable.



Professor Duncan was played by UK comedian and now political-show host
John Oliver.



Brian

[Peter T. Daniels]

Exactly.

Maybe some of what Tony's biker friends hand-roll is tobacco cigarettes,
but the other seems a lot more likely.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Sunday, December 23, 2018 at 2:23:18 PM UTC-5, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Sun, 23 Dec 2018 09:35:00 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >On Sunday, December 23, 2018 at 12:01:12 PM UTC-5, Tony Cooper wrote:
> >
> >[cigarette slang]
> >> The one that stopped me was "roll-up" when it was in a sentence like
> >> "He went outside for a roll-up". For some reason I read it as "roll
> >> mop" and thought he went outside for a herring snack.
> >>
> >> Hand-rolled cigarettes are not unknown here, but I don't think we use
> >> "roll-up" to describe them.
> >
> >"Joint" is probably still the most common.
>
> Perhaps in Jersey City, but not to the rest of us. A "joint" is
> marijuana. Some people hand-roll cigarettes with regular tobacco. At
> one time, it was common for people to own a little machine that was
> used to make cigarettes using cigarette paper and a pouch of loose
> tobacco.

Those "some people" are very few, and that "one time" is very long gone.

> https://www.rubylane.com/item/815747-jk226/Vintage-Cigarette-Roller-Brown-Williamson-Tobacco
>
> The old Western movies often had a cowboy hand-rolling a cigarette
> with the string closure for the pouch of tobacco clenched in his
> teeth.
>
> https://www.pinterest.com/pin/361836151289071137/

So now you've added old Westerns to your BBC-America reference points.
They're not any more realistic.

[Peter T. Daniels]

I think they did it once each season at least (then they moved to cable).

> Professor Ian Duncan : Abed, how many fingers am I holding up, and more
> importantly, are they still made of clay?
>
> Abed Nadir : Three, and I told you, it's not clay. We're silicone
> bodies with ball-and-socket armatures.
>
> Professor Ian Duncan : Very interesting, and publishable.
>
> Professor Duncan was played by UK comedian and now political-show host
> John Oliver.

I think he was already a political-show commentator. That was part of the
joke.

[Tony Cooper]

On Sun, 23 Dec 2018 11:44:56 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"

It has already been established in this thread that the terms are all
dated, so what was done at time "very long gone" is an appropriate
reference.

I have to laugh at you when you get snarky about references to Brit
shows and old Western movies when you seem to relate so much to
American television shows. Scarcely a day goes by when we don't read
some comment from you relating something to a American TV show. It's
as if it's not a valid instance of Americana if it's not seen/heard on
TBBT or some other show. And you question what is "realistic"!

[Tony Cooper]

I would not have made that association. To me, a "snout" is a police
informant in BrE.

In the US, they are "CI"s, or "Confidential or Criminal Informants".

[Default User]

Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> On Sunday, December 23, 2018 at 2:35:29 PM UTC-5, Default User wrote:

> > One of favorite episodes of the US TV show "Community" was
> > stop-motion. At least it seemed that way to one character:
>
> I think they did it once each season at least (then they moved to
> cable).

Stop-motion? I don't recall any other episodes besides "Abed's
Uncontrollable Christmas".

> > Professor Duncan was played by UK comedian and now political-show
> > host John Oliver.
>
> I think he was already a political-show commentator. That was part of
> the joke.

Part of which joke?


Brian

[Sam Plusnet]

It would do more than suggest.
The Trades Description Act might be invoked if it didn't contain marijuana.

I'd be quite surprised if there wasn't a similar response in the US.

--
Sam Plusnet

[Default User]

It was somewhat evident from context. Here's the entire passage:

"In the middle of all the abandoned furniture, Inez Thapa perched
elegantly on the edge of a table, smoking a lung turbo snout and
looking vaguely displeased through the ribbons of vapor it gave off."


One of the challenges with the book is that it's written in
first-person stream-of-consciousness style typical of noir fiction. He
frequently just mentions things without giving any "info-dumps" to
explain what they are. With science fiction that can be even more
difficult.

Example, throughout he mentions "'branegels". Never uses the full word
(speculation online is that it's probably "membranegel"). The main
character doesn't explain what they are, just describes the behavior of
ones that appear in the book.

These are thin, filmy sheets that float in the air and have some
limited ability to move. They can display advertisements or serve as
communication devices. In the passage above, "Hak" is interviewing her
through a 'branegel.


Brian

[Tony Cooper]

On Sun, 23 Dec 2018 21:02:38 -0000 (UTC), "Default User"

<defaul...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Tony Cooper wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 23 Dec 2018 19:20:16 -0000 (UTC), "Default User"
>> <defaul...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> > I was able to find it. It was "snout". In my e-reader dictionary
>> > that had:
>> >
>> > 2.
>> > informal•British
>> > a cigarette.
>>
>> I would not have made that association. To me, a "snout" is a police
>> informant in BrE.
>
>It was somewhat evident from context. Here's the entire passage:
>
>"In the middle of all the abandoned furniture, Inez Thapa perched
>elegantly on the edge of a table, smoking a lung turbo snout and
>looking vaguely displeased through the ribbons of vapor it gave off."

I missed the reference to "science fiction". The above doesn't make a
lick of sense to me.

[Default User]

Tony Cooper wrote:

> On Sun, 23 Dec 2018 21:02:38 -0000 (UTC), "Default User"
> <defaul...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> > It was somewhat evident from context. Here's the entire passage:
> >
> > "In the middle of all the abandoned furniture, Inez Thapa perched
> > elegantly on the edge of a table, smoking a lung turbo snout and
> > looking vaguely displeased through the ribbons of vapor it gave
> > off."
>
> I missed the reference to "science fiction". The above doesn't make a
> lick of sense to me.

Really? Other than "lung turbo snout" it's not too bad. A person named
Inez is sitting on the edge of table smoking [something] with vapor
coming from it. You could swap in "e-cigarette" and make it a pretty
unremarkable passage from a contemporary work.

There are definitely parts much less clear than that.


Brian

[Sam Plusnet]

Whenever I have come across the word "snout" it is in a (UK) prison
context, and refers to tobacco.
However using it to mean a cigarette isn't too much of a stretch.


--
Sam Plusnet

[Tony Cooper]

On Sun, 23 Dec 2018 21:49:45 -0000 (UTC), "Default User"

I see e-smokers quite a bit, and they seem to emit clouds of
smoke-like vapor, not ribbons. A passenger in a car next to me in
traffic earlier today was puffing on an e-cigarette, and I thought the
car was on fire when I saw the cloud coming from the car window.

The "lung turbo snout" is so much a part that passage that without
know what that means, the rest of it doesn't make any sense.

It's been established that "snout" is a word for a cigarette, but
whence comes the "lung turbo"?

[Default User]

Tony Cooper wrote:

> On Sun, 23 Dec 2018 21:49:45 -0000 (UTC), "Default User"
> <defaul...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> > Really? Other than "lung turbo snout" it's not too bad. A person
> > named Inez is sitting on the edge of table smoking [something] with
> > vapor coming from it. You could swap in "e-cigarette" and make it a
> > pretty unremarkable passage from a contemporary work.
> >
> > There are definitely parts much less clear than that.
> >
> I see e-smokers quite a bit, and they seem to emit clouds of
> smoke-like vapor, not ribbons. A passenger in a car next to me in
> traffic earlier today was puffing on an e-cigarette, and I thought the
> car was on fire when I saw the cloud coming from the car window.
>
> The "lung turbo snout" is so much a part that passage that without
> know what that means, the rest of it doesn't make any sense.

Well, I guess we're different. I figured out the gist without too much
trouble, woman smoking using some device. Possibly my long history of
reading SF helps.

> It's been established that "snout" is a word for a cigarette, but
> whence comes the "lung turbo"?

I don't have a good answer. Sometimes "turbo" means turbo-charged. In
this case perhaps the device draws in air.


Brian

[Peter T. Daniels]

You, however, pretend that your references to CB and BC&tSK have present
relevance.

[Peter T. Daniels]

The one you quoted.

[Tony Cooper]

On Sun, 23 Dec 2018 20:11:19 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> wrote:


>> >So now you've added old Westerns to your BBC-America reference points.
>> >They're not any more realistic.
>>

Watch for new references. My television watching has been more
Australian than British lately. I just finished three delightful
series of "800 Words" set in New Zealand (but the main characters are
from Sydney) and have just started "Janet King" (an Australian Crown
Prosecutor). We finished "Rake" some time ago. Acorn TV has a lot of
Aussie programs.

So far, no mention of putting a shrimp on the barbie, but a lot of
"G'day, Mate"s.

>> I have to laugh at you when you get snarky about references to Brit
>> shows and old Western movies when you seem to relate so much to
>> American television shows. Scarcely a day goes by when we don't read
>> some comment from you relating something to a American TV show. It's
>> as if it's not a valid instance of Americana if it's not seen/heard on
>> TBBT or some other show. And you question what is "realistic"!
>

[Default User]

I guess I'm not following.


Brian

[CDB]

It would make a little more sense if "lung" were a typo for "long".
Searching for "turbo cigarette" gets some hits, although I'm still not
sure what the things are.

https://preview.tinyurl.com/y92b7c2m

[Default User]

I think I found some clarification. Searching for "turbo" in the book
reveals that "lung turbos" are implants that Mars residents have to
assist with the thin air.

Examples:

Fresh gas exchange turbos for your lungs

What’s the matter, your lung turbos not up to scratch anymore?

enforcers mostly who can’t hack the thin air anymore and can’t afford
the newer turbo add-ons to make up the difference

[CDB]

On 12/24/2018 1:11 PM, Default User wrote:

Ha. I suppose the action of a turbine could account for the vapour's
coming in ribbons instead of clouds.

[Ken Blake]

On Sat, 22 Dec 2018 17:47:44 +0000, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
<ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:

>On Sat, 22 Dec 2018 07:57:48 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
><gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>>I learned the word "pismire" from *Mary Poppins in the Park,* the last of
>>the four books (1952), but the first of them that I read because it was what
>>happened to be in the library that day, a few years after it was published,
>>and it was just about the only detail I always remembered.
>>
>>It was clear that the set I bought last week was an American edition, because
>>the quotation marks are " " not ' ', and I was, I now realize suspiciously,
>>not caught up by too many Briticisms (though there are some); but then I came
>>to p. 150 and read "I stepped over every ant and beetle for fear it might be
>>one of my princes." Yet on p. 156 there's a "colour," and in the next chapter
>>Jane makes figurines of "plasticine," which I recalled was also new to me (we
>>call the stuff "clay" or when being picky "modeling clay").
>>
>
>It is a specifc type of "modeling clay" which actually contains no clay.
>Plasticine doesn't dry out and harden. It remains malleable.
>

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasticine#Uses



It's also sometimes called "plastiline."

[Madrigal Gurneyhalt]

By 3 year olds that don't yet form their words properly, yes. I'm
not sure it counts though!