not my call- meaning what
Grzegorz Forc
Does "it's not my call" refer to: it's not my bussines?
Or rather: It's not my decision
I guess both, but I'm nonnative so can't be sure. What's your view?
Regards
GF
Grzegorz Forc
Użytkownik "Grzegorz Forc" <gf...@poczta.onet.pl> napisał w wiadomości
news:fn9cnt$dkv$1...@news.onet.pl...
R H Draney
>
>Does "it's not my call" refer to: it's not my bussines?
>Or rather: It's not my decision
>
>I guess both, but I'm nonnative so can't be sure. What's your view?
It's the "not my decision" meaning...the origin is a sports referee, who is
required to "make the call" when a violation is suspected...if you don't have
enough information to decide a matter, or you don't have the authority, it's
"not your call"....r
--
What good is being an executive if you never get to execute anyone?
Grzegorz Forc
Użytkownik "R H Draney" <dado...@spamcop.net> napisał w wiadomości
news:fn9d2...@drn.newsguy.com...
Thanks r. Cleared up.
Don Phillipson
news:fn9cnt$dkv$1...@news.onet.pl...
> Hello,
> Does "it's not my call" refer to: it's not my bussines?
> Or rather: It's not my decision
"Call" is used specifically in baseball, where every pitch
must be judged by eye, as to whether it did or did not
travel through the "strike zone" (space defined laterally
as above Home Plate and vertically as between the
knees and shoulders of the batter: i.e. this space is
different for batters of different physiques.) Every pitch
must be judged either a Ball or a Strike, and every
decision must be taken uniquely by the referee who
stands behind the catcher. This decision is usually
instantaneous, and indicated by a hand signal as
well as the referee's voice (for the benefit of people
out of earshot) but may be occasionally delayed.
I cannot remember exactly the proverbial phrase of
one umpire: "There's no strikes until I call them."
So in everyday speech "it's not my call" indicates duty
or responsibility. But the evolution of language does not
prevent the meaning from migrating away from that of the source.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Donna Richoux
> "R H Draney" <dado...@spamcop.net> napisa" w wiadomości
> news:fn9d2...@drn.newsguy.com...
> > Grzegorz Forc filted:
> >>
> >>Does "it's not my call" refer to: it's not my bussines?
> >>Or rather: It's not my decision
> >>
> >>I guess both, but I'm nonnative so can't be sure. What's your view?
> >
> > It's the "not my decision" meaning...the origin is a sports referee, who
> > is required to "make the call" when a violation is suspected...if you don't
> > have enough information to decide a matter, or you don't have the authority,
> > it's "not your call"....r
>
> Thanks r. Cleared up.
The meaning may be cleared up, but the origin is not. Several people
have blithely asserted that this is a sports term. Does anyone care to
provide any evidence of this term orginating and being used in sports?
What sport? When? Who? Did fans say it to each other, did players say it
to referees -- for what purpose? Where's the evidence?
Because when I look at history, all I find it that it was used in the
religious sense of ministers having a call -- we'd probably say "a
calling" now -- and missionaries and even prophets. Examples from Google
Books:
Again, many say, If you are called to preach, why do
you not do it constantly, and take a round as a
preacher? I answer, Because that is not my call. I
have many duties to attend to, and many cares which
they know nothing about.
(The Life of Mrs. Mary Fletcher: Consort and Relict
of the Rev. John Fletcher ... By Henry Moore.
Published 1846)
Quite true, Ellen. Plenty to be done in that way at
the Cape, ... as well as in every other portion of
the globe that ever I saw or heard of. But the Cape
is not my call at present -- I am bound for Australia.
(The Rose of Ashurst By Anne Marsh-Caldwell.
Published 1857)
Is not your call to the organ as evident and divine
as any minister's can be to the pulpit ?
(Life and Letters of Phillips Brooks - by Alexander
Viets Griswold Allen - 1900)
Then, there's a long silence for "not my call" and "not your call" for
nearly any purpose whatsoever -- then suddenly it turns up as an idiom
in US government hearings and legal proceedings. No sports.
The first is 1949. The snippet shows a different result than the Google
hit (at least it contains the phrase!). The actual text:
Department of Defense Appropriations: Hearings -
1949 ...
protected, and I would rather have the capability.
But it is your call, sir. It is not my call.
Senator Inouye. Well, on the matter of threats, we
have had had confusing signals in recent times.
Then I don't see any relevant "not my call" or "not your call" until
1988, though I might have missed some.
Far from cut and dried, I'd say.
Isn't "call" what you do what you say "heads" or "tails" -- "Whose
call?" meaning "Who gets to call it?"
Isn't it a poker term? Bridge?
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
Mike Lyle
[...]
>
> Then, there's a long silence for "not my call" and "not your call" for
> nearly any purpose whatsoever -- then suddenly it turns up as an idiom
> in US government hearings and legal proceedings. No sports.
>
> The first is 1949. The snippet shows a different result than the
> Google hit (at least it contains the phrase!). The actual text:
>
> Department of Defense Appropriations: Hearings -
> 1949 ...
> protected, and I would rather have the capability.
> But it is your call, sir. It is not my call.
> Senator Inouye. Well, on the matter of threats, we
> have had had confusing signals in recent times.
>
> Then I don't see any relevant "not my call" or "not your call" until
> 1988, though I might have missed some.
>
> Far from cut and dried, I'd say.
>
> Isn't "call" what you do what you say "heads" or "tails" -- "Whose
> call?" meaning "Who gets to call it?"
>
> Isn't it a poker term? Bridge?
Interesting. Let's not ignore Don's baseball explanation, and let's
remember that tennis also has "calls". But let's also bear in mind the
"beer call" and "calling the tune" (as famously done by him who pays the
piper). I can't make this usage fit with the religious call, as it
doesn't refer to a /lifelong/ obligation.
--
Mike.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Then, there's a long silence for "not my call" and "not your call"
> for nearly any purpose whatsoever -- then suddenly it turns up as an
> idiom in US government hearings and legal proceedings. No sports.
>
> The first is 1949. The snippet shows a different result than the
> Google hit (at least it contains the phrase!). The actual text:
>
> Department of Defense Appropriations: Hearings -
> 1949 ...
> protected, and I would rather have the capability.
> But it is your call, sir. It is not my call.
> Senator Inouye. Well, on the matter of threats, we
> have had had confusing signals in recent times.
>
> Then I don't see any relevant "not my call" or "not your call" until
> 1988, though I might have missed some.
Looking at the positive, it's used in sporting contexts by 1976:
Hayes, in a rare admission, blamed himself for the interception
that probably cost the Buckeyes 3 points in the first half.
"It was my call all the way," Hayes said, "and it was just a bad
call". [_NY Times_, 11/21/1976]
The OED cites the "decision or ruling made by an official in a sports
contest" meaning of "call" back to 1874 (in a rugby context), but the
non-sporting "decision, judgement, or idea; guess or prediction" only
to 1972. For verbs, they have officials calling games (stopping play)
to 1865 and calling strikes (and penalties) to 1887, and they have
quarterbacks calling plays to 1909.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |All tax revenue is the result of
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |holding a gun to somebody's head.
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |Not paying taxes is against the law.
|If you don't pay your taxes, you'll
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |be fined. If you don't pay the fine,
(650)857-7572 |you'll be jailed. If you try to
|escape from jail, you'll be shot.
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | P.J. O'Rourke
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
> Grzegorz Forc <gf...@poczta.onet.pl> wrote:
> >news:fn9d2...@drn.newsguy.com...
> > > Grzegorz Forc filted:
>
> > >>Does "it's not my call" refer to: it's not my bussines?
> > >>Or rather: It's not my decision
>
> > >>I guess both, but I'm nonnative so can't be sure. What's your view?
>
> > > It's the "not my decision" meaning...the origin is a sports referee, who
> > > is required to "make the call" when a violation is suspected...if you don't
> > > have enough information to decide a matter, or you don't have the authority,
>
> > Thanks r. Cleared up.
>
> The meaning may be cleared up, but the origin is not. Several people
> have blithely asserted that this is a sports term. Does anyone care to
> provide any evidence of this term orginating and being used in sports?
> What sport? When? Who? Did fans say it to each other, did players say it
> to referees -- for what purpose? Where's the evidence?
[snip call to the pulpit]
> Then, there's a long silence for "not my call" and "not your call" for
> nearly any purpose whatsoever -- then suddenly it turns up as an idiom
> in US government hearings and legal proceedings. No sports.
>
> The first is 1949. The snippet shows a different result than the Google
> hit (at least it contains the phrase!). The actual text:
>
> Department of Defense Appropriations: Hearings -
> 1949 ...
> protected, and I would rather have the capability.
> But it is your call, sir. It is not my call.
> Senator Inouye. Well, on the matter of threats, we
> have had had confusing signals in recent times.
That looks like one of those misleading GB years. According to
Wikipedia, Sen. Daniel Inouye was studying political science at U. H.
Manoa in 1949 (or at least he graduated in 1950).
> Then I don't see any relevant "not my call" or "not your call" until
> 1988, though I might have missed some.
>
> Far from cut and dried, I'd say.
I've been looking for sports uses earlier than the one Evan found,
with "whose call", "the referee's call", etc., but haven't found any
that distinguish one person's call from another's.
> Isn't "call" what you do what you say "heads" or "tails" -- "Whose
> call?" meaning "Who gets to call it?"
I've never heard "Whose call?" that way.
> Isn't it a poker term? Bridge?
I'll be surprised if "my call" etc. is a poker term. I think I've
heard "It's your call" once or twice in bridge, as "call" is the
generic term for bid, double, or pass, but in my experience it's more
common to remind someone it's their turn by saying their name in a
questioning tone.
--
Jerry Friedman
Donna Richoux
>> Department of Defense Appropriations: Hearings -
>> 1949 ...
>> protected, and I would rather have the capability.
>> But it is your call, sir. It is not my call.
>> Senator Inouye. Well, on the matter of threats, we
>> have had had confusing signals in recent times.
>That looks like one of those misleading GB years. According to
>Wikipedia, Sen. Daniel Inouye was studying political science at U. H.
>Manoa in 1949 (or at least he graduated in 1950).
Good catch. Wikipedia says he's been a senator since 1963. I should have
remembered that congressional and parliamentary reports suffer from The
Date Problem.
Why do they restrict all those hearings to "Snippet View"? Who are they
trying to protect?
Well, I'm rather glad it wasn't 1949, that was so much earlier than the
others.
[snip]
> I'll be surprised if "my call" etc. is a poker term. I think I've
> heard "It's your call" once or twice in bridge, as "call" is the
> generic term for bid, double, or pass, but in my experience it's more
> common to remind someone it's their turn by saying their name in a
> questioning tone.
I looked again for "It's your call" in Google Books, and found:
Idiomatic English Sentences with Swedish Equivalents, 1959
It's your call [at bridge] Det är du som bjuder.
Anyone know enough Swedish to read that? From what you say, "Your turn
to bid"?
Snidely
> Looking at the positive, it's used in sporting contexts by 1976:
>
> Hayes, in a rare admission, blamed himself for the interception
> that probably cost the Buckeyes 3 points in the first half.
> "It was my call all the way," Hayes said, "and it was just a bad
> call". [_NY Times_, 11/21/1976]
>
> The OED cites the "decision or ruling made by an official in a sports
> contest" meaning of "call" back to 1874 (in a rugby context), but the
> non-sporting "decision, judgement, or idea; guess or prediction" only
> to 1972. For verbs, they have officials calling games (stopping play)
> to 1865 and calling strikes (and penalties) to 1887, and they have
> quarterbacks calling plays to 1909.
The "quaterback calling plays" applies to the Hayes, quote, except
that in this case it is the coach (Woody Hayes, right?) doing the play
calling from the sidelines -- which has become the standard way of
play calling since then, with the QB only on occasion picking
something on his own -- usually by doing an "audible" after lining up
to start the previously picked (called) play.
/dps
tony cooper
>I've never heard "Whose call?" that way.
>
>> Isn't it a poker term? Bridge?
>
>I'll be surprised if "my call" etc. is a poker term. I think I've
>heard "It's your call" once or twice in bridge, as "call" is the
>generic term for bid, double, or pass, but in my experience it's more
>common to remind someone it's their turn by saying their name in a
>questioning tone.
"Call" is used in poker only as "I call", meaning "I'll match your bet
but I will not raise the bet".
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Evan Kirshenbaum
> jerry_f...@yahoo.com <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> I'll be surprised if "my call" etc. is a poker term. I think I've
>> heard "It's your call" once or twice in bridge, as "call" is the
>> generic term for bid, double, or pass, but in my experience it's more
>> common to remind someone it's their turn by saying their name in a
>> questioning tone.
>
> I looked again for "It's your call" in Google Books, and found:
>
> Idiomatic English Sentences with Swedish Equivalents, 1959
> It's your call [at bridge] Det är du som bjuder.
>
> Anyone know enough Swedish to read that? From what you say, "Your turn
> to bid"?
"Your turn to match the current bet". I can see it back to 1909:
"Just my luck...If this had been Saint Jo that pot would have
turned me something."
... "What was that you said about Saint Jo?"
... "Only that we don't play no limit down there."
"That so?" Hertzer flipped a twenty-dollar bill to the centre.
"Well, it's your call, and no limit but the roof. If that isn't
high enough for your sporty blood, we'll go outside."
Herman Whitaker, _The Planter_, 1909
Here's a figurative sense from 1903:
"I guess everyone here takes your meaning--which, put into plain
American, is just this: we've got to have those air-ships and
submarines. It doesn't matter about spending a few million
dollars on it. They're worth the money and if anybody gets hurt
over the transfer of the property, well, we have all got too much
at stake, financially and politically to worry much about that.
And now, since we seem to understand each other fairly well, in
the language of the immortal game, it's your call. What's it to
be?"
George Griffith, _The Lake of Gold_, 1903
Looking back a bit, though, I see a slightly different sense of
"choice":
'Who's to be knocked down for the next song?' roared the
wood-cutter, in his stentorian voice. 'It's my call, and I calls
on--I calls on--'
_The Old Roman Well_, 1861
After that I found I had to return thanks, which turned out to be
easier than I had expected, and then everybody called out 'Now
then, Macleane, it's your call.'
'I know,' said Macleane; 'I think I can't do better than to call
on the celebrated comic singer, Mr. Vere, for a song.'
"Boating Life at Oxford", _London Society, 1867
"Please miss, as it's my call, may I be so bold as to ask _you_ to
sing?"
Edward Greey, _Blue Jackets_, 1871
"It's my call now. Mr Batters will favour the company with a
song. Hurrah!"
G.J. Whyte-Melville, _The Brookes of Bridlemere_, 1872
"... You can tell a story as well as anyone I ever came across; so
go on. After having spun my yarn, it's my call, and I call upon
you."
R. Mounteney Jephson, "Our Travellers' Bungalow", _The
Roll of the Drum, and Other Tales_, 1880
There are a few others, but that 1880 quotation is the last one I see.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Yesterday I washed a single sock.
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |When I opened the door, the machine
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |was empty.
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
tony cooper
>> Isn't "call" what you do what you say "heads" or "tails" -- "Whose
>> call?" meaning "Who gets to call it?"
>
>I've never heard "Whose call?" that way.
>
The referee at the beginning of an (Am) football game at a neutral
site needs to know whose call it is, but I don't he needs to ask the
players on the field. He's informed in advance.
This is for the coin flip that decides which team kicks and which team
will receive. The winner of the flip decides that, and the loser
decides which goal to defend.
Barbara Bailey
> Grzegorz Forc wrote:
>> "R H Draney"
>> > Grzegorz Forc filted:
>> >>Does "it's not my call" refer to: it's not my bussines?
>> >>Or rather: It's not my decision
>> >>
>> >>I guess both, but I'm nonnative so can't be sure. What's your view?
>> > It's the "not my decision" meaning...the origin is a sports
>> > referee, who is required to "make the call" when a violation is
>> > suspected...if you don't have enough information to decide a
>> > matter, or you don't have the authority, it's "not your call"....r
>> Thanks r. Cleared up.
> The meaning may be cleared up, but the origin is not. Several people
> have blithely asserted that this is a sports term. Does anyone care to
> provide any evidence of this term orginating and being used in sports?
> What sport? When? Who? Did fans say it to each other, did players say
> it to referees -- for what purpose? Where's the evidence?
<http://books.google.com/books?id=0WKbymxf01kC&pg=PA214&dq=%
22not+my+call%22>
Macmillan's Magazine, Vol. LVIII May to October 1888, pg 214
In the story _the Lost Match; a Tragedy of the Cricket-field_ by A.
Mougher:
"Only two runs were wanted now, and those two would have been made in
the very next over (by two beautiful strokes in the slips) had not
Batson refused each time to run. To my not unnatural remonstrance, he
answered that it was not "my call", and that there was no run. Not my
call! Perhaps not, but it *was* my hit and that was why there was no
run. I felt really hurt to see my friend, at his age and at such a
moment, exhibiting the contemptible jealousy of a school-boy. ..."
That seems to establish it solidly in cricket, at least. While I don't
pretend to understand the rules of the game, this snippet seems to say
that it's the runner's "call" (decision) whether he will run on any
particular hit.
The overwhelming hits in Google books are religious in nature, but most
of them are also using the phrase "heed[s/ing] not my call", "hear
[s/d/ing] not my call", "answer[s/ed/ing] not my call", or such
construction rather than "[It's/that's] not my call."
Barbara Bailey
> Donna Richoux wrote:
>
>> Isn't it a poker term? Bridge?
>
> I'll be surprised if "my call" etc. is a poker term. I think I've
> heard "It's your call" once or twice in bridge, as "call" is the
> generic term for bid, double, or pass, but in my experience it's more
> common to remind someone it's their turn by saying their name in a
> questioning tone.
"Call" is certainly a poker term, indicating that you are willing to meet
the existing level of wager, but not increase it. Each player bets in turn
by "calling" (putting up the current amount,) "raising" (matching the
current amount and adding more,) or "folding" (declining to bet at all and
dropping out of play.) I don't know whether it's common to telll someone
that it's their turn to play by saying "your call" or not.
Oleg Lego
Is the winner of the toss allowed to defer the choice to the second
half, as in Canadian football?
--
WCdnE
Lars Enderin
it sounds reasonable.
Donna Richoux
> Here's a figurative sense from 1903:
>
> "I guess everyone here takes your meaning--which, put into plain
> American, is just this: we've got to have those air-ships and
> submarines. It doesn't matter about spending a few million
> dollars on it. They're worth the money and if anybody gets hurt
> over the transfer of the property, well, we have all got too much
> at stake, financially and politically to worry much about that.
> And now, since we seem to understand each other fairly well, in
> the language of the immortal game, it's your call. What's it to
> be?"
>
> George Griffith, _The Lake of Gold_, 1903
Every reference to "the immortal game" that I can find refers to chess.
There's "The Immortal Game: a history of chess" by David Shenk. There's
"The Immortal Game," a novel by Mark Coggin in which a detective hunts
for a stolen "virtual reality chess program." But what does chess having
to with calling? Maybe this was a bit of humorous alteration. It would
be nice to know.
> Looking back a bit, though, I see a slightly different sense of
> "choice":
>
> 'Who's to be knocked down for the next song?' roared the
> wood-cutter, in his stentorian voice. 'It's my call, and I calls
> on--I calls on--'
>
> _The Old Roman Well_, 1861
>
> After that I found I had to return thanks, which turned out to be
> easier than I had expected, and then everybody called out 'Now
> then, Macleane, it's your call.'
> 'I know,' said Macleane; 'I think I can't do better than to call
> on the celebrated comic singer, Mr. Vere, for a song.'
>
> "Boating Life at Oxford", _London Society, 1867
>
> "Please miss, as it's my call, may I be so bold as to ask _you_ to
> sing?"
>
> Edward Greey, _Blue Jackets_, 1871
>
> "It's my call now. Mr Batters will favour the company with a
> song. Hurrah!"
>
> G.J. Whyte-Melville, _The Brookes of Bridlemere_, 1872
>
> "... You can tell a story as well as anyone I ever came across; so
> go on. After having spun my yarn, it's my call, and I call upon
> you."
>
> R. Mounteney Jephson, "Our Travellers' Bungalow", _The
> Roll of the Drum, and Other Tales_, 1880
>
> There are a few others, but that 1880 quotation is the last one I see.
I really love this. Unexpected, and yet predictable that an ordinary
word like "call" would develop meanings that are forgotten a hundred
years later. This one fits perfectly with the modern idiom (your turn to
decide) and yet how could we ever show a link, if it exists?
tony cooper
wrote:
Not defer, but the choices switch for the start of the second half.
You can't defer the choice. One team must kick and one team must
receive at the start of the first half or the game never gets
underway.
The team that kicks off at the start of the first half receives at the
start of the second half. The goal choice switches too.
The coin toss is also used in (Am) football in a "sudden death"
overtime where the first team to score wins.
Richard Maurer
"it is your call" seems to arise from poker
after a hundred years in the back rooms of America,
heard from a football coach who calls plays.
That is for the forward sense, about a decision
to be made about what to do in the near future.
There is also some convergence, as
"it is your call" has been used for the recent
30 to 40 years for decisions made by the players
in sports when there is no referee. Tennis assigns
"in" or "out" decisions about the recent past
to a specific player. Basketball assigns the
foul calling decisions.
Another convergence item was the telephone call.
Back when long distance calls were worrisomely
expensive, the calling party might ask
"Should we discuss Smithers" and hear in response
"It is your call", meaning that it is fine if you
are willing to bear the expense.
-- ---------------------------------------------
Richard Maurer To reply, remove half
Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Donna Richoux
> According to the evidence Evan provided,
> "it is your call" seems to arise from poker
> after a hundred years in the back rooms of America,
> heard from a football coach who calls plays.
Sorry, is that a joke? Evan doesn't mention poker, not that I see.
"Calling plays" in football (quarterbacks more than coaches, right?) was
one of the uses of "call," and it matches the modern meaning more than
some of the others, but unless there was some reason to believe that
players (or sportswriters or *somebody*) went around saying, "Well, it
was his call, but..." when talking about specific football games, then
we still don't have evidence.
I do like that as an idea for the source -- "It's your call, coach"
(invented line) feels like the spirit of the phrase.
Barbara found one tie-in to cricket. That was good, but it could still
be chance and I'd want to see more than one.
> That is for the forward sense, about a decision
> to be made about what to do in the near future.
>
> There is also some convergence, as
> "it is your call" has been used for the recent
> 30 to 40 years for decisions made by the players
> in sports when there is no referee. Tennis assigns
> "in" or "out" decisions about the recent past
> to a specific player. Basketball assigns the
> foul calling decisions.
Do you have some citations for those?
>
> Another convergence item was the telephone call.
> Back when long distance calls were worrisomely
> expensive, the calling party might ask
> "Should we discuss Smithers" and hear in response
> "It is your call", meaning that it is fine if you
> are willing to bear the expense.
Yes. I saw a bit of that, along the lines of "It's your dime." Not
enough to generate a cliche of "It's not my call," though.
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Evan Kirshenbaum <kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> wrote:
>
>> Here's a figurative sense from 1903:
>>
>> "I guess everyone here takes your meaning--which, put into
>> plain American, is just this: we've got to have those air-ships
>> and submarines. It doesn't matter about spending a few million
>> dollars on it. They're worth the money and if anybody gets
>> hurt over the transfer of the property, well, we have all got
>> too much at stake, financially and politically to worry much
>> about that. And now, since we seem to understand each other
>> fairly well, in the language of the immortal game, it's your
>> call. What's it to be?"
>>
>> George Griffith, _The Lake of Gold_, 1903
>
> Every reference to "the immortal game" that I can find refers to
> chess. There's "The Immortal Game: a history of chess" by David
> Shenk. There's "The Immortal Game," a novel by Mark Coggin in which
> a detective hunts for a stolen "virtual reality chess program." But
> what does chess having to with calling? Maybe this was a bit of
> humorous alteration. It would be nice to know.
Restricting it to older quotes (before 1950), I see it used of
cricket, bowls, and what looks from the snippet to be fox hunting.
But (with this possible exception) no poker. The phrase "in the
language of the immortal game" shows up twice in this novel. Looking
at it in context, I'm pretty sure he meant poker, since the same
character, a page and a half before, also said "to use the language of
poker", but this is in the middle of a discussion in which others are
talking (also metaphorically) about trumps and declaring hands.
The passage is at
http://tinyurl.com/25lpcz
<URL:http://books.google.com/books?id=Y4W-F4JnVxcC&pg=PA215&
dq=%22the+immortal+game%22+date:0-1950+%22your+call%22&as_brr=3>
if you want to form your own opinion.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |_Bauplan_ is just the German word
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |for blueprint. Typically, one
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |switches languages to indicate
|profundity.
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com | Richard Dawkins
(650)857-7572
Evan Kirshenbaum
> On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 23:43:59 -0600, Oleg Lego <r...@atatatat.com>
> wrote:
>
>>Is the winner of the toss allowed to defer the choice to the second
>>half, as in Canadian football?
>
> Not defer, but the choices switch for the start of the second half.
> You can't defer the choice.
Yes you can, at least in college football. The team that wins the
toss gets to decide which half they want to get first choice in. The
team that gets first choice in the half gets to choose to kick, to
receive, or to start in one or the other direction. If they choose to
kick or receive, the other team then gets the choice of direction. If
they choose direction, the other team gets to choose to kick or receive.
> One team must kick and one team must receive at the start of the
> first half or the game never gets underway.
>
> The team that kicks off at the start of the first half receives at the
> start of the second half. The goal choice switches too.
In practice, the first choice is almost always to receive, so if the
team that wins the toss wants to receive in the second half, they will
choose to defer.
Looking at the NFL rules digest
http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/cointoss
you can't defer there, although you get the same "choice of choices"
and the loser of the toss gets the choice in the second half. So if
the team that loses the toss cares more about direction (if, say, wind
conditions were a factor), they might well allow the team that won the
toss to receive in the second half as well. I think I've seen it
happen once or twice. I know I've noticed teams not switching ends.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Now every hacker knows
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 | That the secret to survivin'
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |Is knowin' when the time is free
| And what's the load and queue
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |'Cause everyone's a cruncher
(650)857-7572 | And everyone's a user
|And the best that you can hope for
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | Is a crash when you're through
tony cooper
<kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> wrote:
>tony cooper <tony_co...@earthlink.net> writes:
>
>> On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 23:43:59 -0600, Oleg Lego <r...@atatatat.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Is the winner of the toss allowed to defer the choice to the second
>>>half, as in Canadian football?
>>
>> Not defer, but the choices switch for the start of the second half.
>> You can't defer the choice.
>
>Yes you can, at least in college football. The team that wins the
>toss gets to decide which half they want to get first choice in. The
>team that gets first choice in the half gets to choose to kick, to
>receive, or to start in one or the other direction. If they choose to
>kick or receive, the other team then gets the choice of direction. If
>they choose direction, the other team gets to choose to kick or receive.
I'm not sure I understand this.
The winner of the toss at the beginning of the game can defer to
choose whether to kick or receive the opening kick-off, but they do
choose which goal to defend, don't they? They don't defer to make a
decision.
To me, they are not deferring a decision to choose, but deferring on
choosing the kick or receive option. They are still choosing one of
the two remaining choices: goal to defend.
Weather, specifically wind, is usually the basis for the toss winner
to opt for the choice of goal to defend.
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Looking back a bit, though, I see a slightly different sense of
> "choice":
>
> 'Who's to be knocked down for the next song?' roared the
> wood-cutter, in his stentorian voice. 'It's my call, and I calls
> on--I calls on--'
>
> _The Old Roman Well_, 1861
[others snipped]. This game of "singer chooses next singer", with
this terminology, apparently goes back at least a couple of decades
more:
"Whose call is it--who sang last?"
Captain Marryatt, "Counterfeit Presentments" (No. VI),
_The Ladies' Companion_, 1843
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |And the wildest dreams of Kew
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 | are the facts of Khatmandhu,
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |And the crimes of Clapham
| chaste in Martaban.
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |
(650)857-7572 | Rudyard Kipling
Mike Lyle
> Evan Kirshenbaum <kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> writes:
>
>> Looking back a bit, though, I see a slightly different sense of
>> "choice":
>>
>> 'Who's to be knocked down for the next song?' roared the
>> wood-cutter, in his stentorian voice. 'It's my call, and I calls
>> on--I calls on--'
>>
>> _The Old Roman Well_, 1861
>
> [others snipped]. This game of "singer chooses next singer", with
> this terminology, apparently goes back at least a couple of decades
> more:
>
> "Whose call is it--who sang last?"
>
> Captain Marryatt, "Counterfeit Presentments" (No. VI),
> _The Ladies' Companion_, 1843
OT. "We call upon (x-x) to sing us a song!
Sing, you bugger, sing!"
(The second line may be adapted to "Sing! Sing! Sing!" if vocabulary is
subject to censorship.)
Then:
"That was a bloody [/varie/, "jolly"] good song!
Sing us another one,
Just like the other one,
Sing us another one, do!"
Snidely
> The "quaterback calling plays" applies to the Hayes, quote, except
s/b "Hayes quote,"
/dps
Snidely
> On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 12:39:21 -0800 (PST), "jerry_fried...@yahoo.com"
>
> <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> Isn't "call" what you do what you say "heads" or "tails" -- "Whose
> >> call?" meaning "Who gets to call it?"
>
> >I've never heard "Whose call?" that way.
>
> The referee at the beginning of an (Am) football game at a neutral
> site needs to know whose call it is, but I don't he needs to ask the
> players on the field. He's informed in advance.
Maybe -- I'll have to play some tapes (last year's scooper bowl, for
instance). I think the referee does say, when actually flipping the
coin, "Call it!"
> This is for the coin flip that decides which team kicks and which team
> will receive. The winner of the flip decides that, and the loser
> decides which goal to defend.
The followups on how this can vary are quite interesting.
/dps
Peter Moylan
> OT. "We call upon (x-x) to sing us a song!
> Sing, you bugger, sing!"
>
> (The second line may be adapted to "Sing! Sing! Sing!" if vocabulary is
> subject to censorship.)
>
> Then:
> "That was a bloody [/varie/, "jolly"] good song!
> Sing us another one,
> Just like the other one,
> Sing us another one, do!"
>
I've only ever heard this one as
"That was a very good rhyme.
Tell us another-y, do.
Tell us another-y
Dirty as buggery,
Tell us another-y, do."
Why "tell" rather than "sing", I don't know. Possibly it was because the
words (in that song) were more important than the tune.
--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
...
> > jerry_fried...@yahoo.com <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >> I'll be surprised if "my call" etc. is a poker term.
> "Your turn to match the current bet". I can see it back to 1909:
>
> "Just my luck...If this had been Saint Jo that pot would have
> turned me something."
>
> ... "What was that you said about Saint Jo?"
>
> ... "Only that we don't play no limit down there."
>
> "That so?" Hertzer flipped a twenty-dollar bill to the centre.
> "Well, it's your call, and no limit but the roof. If that isn't
> high enough for your sporty blood, we'll go outside."
...
Okay, I'm surprised, though from what Tony said, it isn't a poker
term, even if it was.
--
Jerry Friedman
Default User
> On Jan 24, 5:04 pm, tony cooper <tony_cooper...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > The referee at the beginning of an (Am) football game at a neutral
> > site needs to know whose call it is, but I don't he needs to ask the
> > players on the field. He's informed in advance.
>
> Maybe -- I'll have to play some tapes (last year's scooper bowl, for
> instance). I think the referee does say, when actually flipping the
> coin, "Call it!"
The referee will show the coin to both set of team captains and explain
which side is heads and which is tails. Then the home team will choose
one of those. It used to be called in the air, but there was a
confusion one time, and now the choice is made before the flip, and
reiterated by the referee. After the winner is announced, that team's
captain will elect to receive or kick.
Brian
--
If televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who
won't shut up.
-- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com)
tony cooper
I'm a little confused on what's being said here by Jerry and Evan.
When Hertzer says "it's your call", in this context, he's not talking
about the *poker* usage of "call" even though it's about a poker game.
He's saying that it is the other person's decision (call) to play "no
limit", and that he will abide by that call.
The poker usage of "call" that I referred to is the specific act of
matching, but not increasing, a bet in one round of betting on one
hand. The other usage of "call" deals with deciding who says, not
matching.
There are three (or more) possible usages of "call" involving the
story above. You can call the game (stud, draw, deuces wild),
call the betting limits (dollar raises, no limit, table stakes), and
call the bet on a round of betting. I suppose you can add "call your
wife for a ride home because you bet a pink slip and lost" and "call
for a re-deal".
Donna Richoux
> > >> Isn't "call" what you do what you say "heads" or "tails"
[snip]
>
> Maybe -- I'll have to play some tapes (last year's scooper bowl, for
> instance). I think the referee does say, when actually flipping the
> coin, "Call it!"
Oh, there's no doubt in my mind that "call" is the verb that goes with
"stating a prediction for 'heads' or 'tails." But like the other uses of
"call," it doesn't necessarily lead to "It's your call" or the like.
Google books has some uses of "whose call is it". This snippet is from
Dame Margaret: The Life Story of His Mother By Richard Lloyd George
Published 1947
It appears to be the end of an anecdote, and my guess is bridge:
On her return she picked up her and and sorted the
cards. Not a muscle moved in her face.
"Come on," she said, "whose call is it?"
There was also one falsely credited to Edward Allen Poe -- it's in a
Ladies Home Companion magazine of 1843, and for some reason Google lists
the most famous contributor of the volume in that situation. It's
actually an article by a Captain Maryatt, R.N., about navy men in a pub,
and it has the same sort of musical "call" that Evan has found:
"Whose call is it -- who sang last ?" "
Every body." "
Who's to sing next ?" "
Any body."
"Damn it, there's no fun in this -- pass the
wine -- who'll volunteer ?"
[A song is sung]
tony cooper
<Snide...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Jan 24, 5:04 pm, tony cooper <tony_cooper...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 12:39:21 -0800 (PST), "jerry_fried...@yahoo.com"
>>
>> <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >> Isn't "call" what you do what you say "heads" or "tails" -- "Whose
>> >> call?" meaning "Who gets to call it?"
>>
>> >I've never heard "Whose call?" that way.
>>
>> The referee at the beginning of an (Am) football game at a neutral
>> site needs to know whose call it is, but I don't he needs to ask the
>> players on the field. He's informed in advance.
>
>Maybe -- I'll have to play some tapes (last year's scooper bowl, for
>instance). I think the referee does say, when actually flipping the
>coin, "Call it!"
Yes, he does. What he knows in advance is which *team* gets to call
it. What he doesn't know is what the appointed team member of that
team will call.
>> This is for the coin flip that decides which team kicks and which team
>> will receive. The winner of the flip decides that, and the loser
>> decides which goal to defend.
>
>The followups on how this can vary are quite interesting.
>
>/dps
--
tony cooper
wrote:
>Snidely wrote:
>
>> On Jan 24, 5:04 pm, tony cooper <tony_cooper...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> > The referee at the beginning of an (Am) football game at a neutral
>> > site needs to know whose call it is, but I don't he needs to ask the
>> > players on the field. He's informed in advance.
>>
>> Maybe -- I'll have to play some tapes (last year's scooper bowl, for
>> instance). I think the referee does say, when actually flipping the
>> coin, "Call it!"
>
>The referee will show the coin to both set of team captains and explain
>which side is heads and which is tails. Then the home team will choose
>one of those. It used to be called in the air, but there was a
>confusion one time, and now the choice is made before the flip, and
>reiterated by the referee. After the winner is announced, that team's
>captain will elect to receive or kick.
>
I don't think there is a "home team" in the Super Bowl, some playoff
games, or a bowl game. The referee knows in advance which team will
make the call, but by some other factor. Possibly a coin flip.
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
> On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 13:34:54 -0800 (PST), "jerry_fried...@yahoo.com"
>
>
>
> <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >On Jan 24, 6:03 pm, Evan Kirshenbaum <kirshenb...@hpl.hp.com> wrote:
> >...
> >> > jerry_fried...@yahoo.com <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >> >> I'll be surprised if "my call" etc. is a poker term.
> >...
>
> >> "Your turn to match the current bet". I can see it back to 1909:
>
> >> "Just my luck...If this had been Saint Jo that pot would have
> >> turned me something."
>
> >> ... "What was that you said about Saint Jo?"
>
> >> ...
> >> "Only that we don't play no limit down there."
>
> >> "That so?" Hertzer flipped a twenty-dollar bill to the centre.
> >> "Well, it's your call, and no limit but the roof. If that isn't
> >> high enough for your sporty blood, we'll go outside."
> >...
>
> >Okay, I'm surprised, though from what Tony said, it isn't a poker
> >term, even if it was.
>
> I'm a little confused on what's being said here by Jerry and Evan.
> When Hertzer says "it's your call", in this context, he's not talking
> about the *poker* usage of "call" even though it's about a poker game.
> He's saying that it is the other person's decision (call) to play "no
> limit", and that he will abide by that call.
It looks to me as if he's saying, "It's your turn to bet or drop."
On the other hand, I wonder how precise the author's poker terminology
is. On the next page, the man from Saint Jo "covered the bet", which
I'd have thought meant "called", but his only remaining opponent
raises, and anyway the Missourian is bluffing, so apparently "covered
the bet" means "raised some amount".
(Also, the author uses "shuffling" to mean "making excuses and
evasions". Not the best choice in a poker scene.)
http://books.google.com/books?id=JQgoAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA51&dq=Saint+Jo+%22your+call%22+twenty&ei=9myaR_ShCYnUsgPsjMmCAQ#PPA51,M1
or <http://tinyurl.com/37yo4c>.
> The poker usage of "call" that I referred to is the specific act of
> matching, but not increasing, a bet in one round of betting on one
> hand. The other usage of "call" deals with deciding who says, not
> matching.
>
> There are three (or more) possible usages of "call" involving the
> story above. You can call the game (stud, draw, deuces wild),
> call the betting limits (dollar raises, no limit, table stakes), and
> call the bet on a round of betting. I suppose you can add "call your
> wife for a ride home because you bet a pink slip and lost" and "call
> for a re-deal".
None of those, certainly.
--
Jerry Friedman
Default User
In the NFL, there's always a "home" team. That determines who gets
uniform choice, which locker room, coin toss call, and all that. For
the Super Bowl, it alternates each year, with the NFC getting
odd-numbered years.
For playoff games, those are always in played one of the team's
stadiums.
I don't know how college bowl games are run.
Snidely
> Snidely <Snidely....@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >> Isn't "call" what you do what you say "heads" or "tails"
> [snip]
>
> > Maybe -- I'll have to play some tapes (last year's scooper bowl, for
> > instance). I think the referee does say, when actually flipping the
> > coin, "Call it!"
>
> Oh, there's no doubt in my mind that "call" is the verb that goes with
> "stating a prediction for 'heads' or 'tails." But like the other uses of
> "call," it doesn't necessarily lead to "It's your call" or the like.
No argument. I was just chasing the rabbit.
> Google books has some uses of "whose call is it". This snippet is from
>
> Dame Margaret: The Life Story of His Mother By Richard Lloyd George
> Published 1947
>
> It appears to be the end of an anecdote, and my guess is bridge:
>
> On her return she picked up her and and sorted the
> cards. Not a muscle moved in her face.
> "Come on," she said, "whose call is it?"
This one sounds like "who opens?", a way of asking who gets to start
the betting or the card exchanges or whatever is required for the type
of play to be played.
I lern allot hear, since the stuff people dig up can be fascinating.
/dps
Evan Kirshenbaum
> On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 08:23:34 -0800, Evan Kirshenbaum
> <kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> wrote:
>
>>Yes you can, at least in college football. The team that wins the
>>toss gets to decide which half they want to get first choice in.
>>The team that gets first choice in the half gets to choose to kick,
>>to receive, or to start in one or the other direction. If they
>>choose to kick or receive, the other team then gets the choice of
>>direction. If they choose direction, the other team gets to choose
>>to kick or receive.
>
> I'm not sure I understand this.
>
> The winner of the toss at the beginning of the game can defer to
> choose whether to kick or receive the opening kick-off, but they do
> choose which goal to defend, don't they? They don't defer to make a
> decision.
>
> To me, they are not deferring a decision to choose, but deferring on
> choosing the kick or receive option. They are still choosing one of
> the two remaining choices: goal to defend.
They defer the choice of which choice to make. There are three
choices:
1. Who chooses first in which half.
2. Who kicks off.
3. Who defends which goal.
The winner of the toss makes choice one. Then, the one who chooses
first in the first half makes *either* choice 2 or choice 3 and the
other team makes the other one. At the beginning of the second half,
the team who didn't choose first in the first half makes either choice
2 or choice 3 and the other team makes the other one.
So by defering you're saying that you want to be able to guarantee
either kicking, receiving, or direction in the second half.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Your claim might have more
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |credibility if you hadn't mispelled
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |"inteligent"
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
Richard Maurer
Hayes, in a rare admission, blamed himself
for the interception that probably cost the Buckeyes
3 points in the first half.
"It was my call all the way," Hayes said, "and it
was just a bad call". [_NY Times_, 11/21/1976]
Some more football snippets:
Gene Upshaw said of the coach's call to punt the ball away
with three minutes left; down four points to
"the best offensive team we've seen this trusting to ...
Oakland Tribune (Newspaper) - October 21, 1974,
Oakland, California Subscription - NewspaperArchive
"It was his call to make and he must have had confidence
in it, or he wouldn't have made the coach added.
"We would have tied the game with a Ed Jakl and ...
Post Crescent (Newspaper) - November 24, 1965,
Appleton, Wisconsin Subscription - NewspaperArchive -
And a transitional one:
It was his call for a long pass by Milt Plum .
in the final two minutes that ... But it Was
his call to" the press box after the game that
let everyone know ...
Press-Telegram (Newspaper) - October 11, 1962,
Long Beach, California Subscription - NewspaperArchive
-- ---------------------------------------------
Richard Maurer To reply, remove half
Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
(I call shotgun.)
Evan Kirshenbaum
> The referee will show the coin to both set of team captains and explain
> which side is heads and which is tails. Then the home team will choose
> one of those.
Visiting team.
http://www.footballscrimmage.com/nfl/coin-toss.shtml
> It used to be called in the air, but there was a confusion one time,
> and now the choice is made before the flip, and reiterated by the
> referee.
It's fairer the other way.
Diaconis himself has trained his thumb to flip a coin and make it
come up heads 10 out of 10 times.
http://news-service.stanford.edu/news/2004/june9/diaconis-69.html
(I took a class from him. I can believe it.) So if the ref knows who
called what before flipping it, in theory he can make whoever he wants
win. Diaconis and Richard Montgomery, who came up with a model that
explains how cats manage to land on their feet) demonstrated that, in
general, about 51% of flips will come out the same way up as the coin
was before it was flipped.
> After the winner is announced, that team's captain will elect to
> receive or kick.
Or choose a goal to defend. In practice, I don't think anybody
chooses to kick. They may choose the goal to defend and allow the
other team to choose to receive.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |There are just two rules of
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |governance in a free society: Mind
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |your own business. Keep your hands
|to yourself.
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com | P.J. O'Rourke
(650)857-7572
Richard Maurer
Every reference to "the immortal game" that
I can find refers to chess.
Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
Restricting it to older quotes (before 1950),
I see it used of cricket, bowls, and what
looks from the snippet to be fox hunting.
But (with this possible exception) no poker.
The phrase "in the language of the immortal game"
shows up twice in this novel. Looking at it
in context, I'm pretty sure he meant poker,
since the same character, a page and a half before,
also said "to use the language of poker", but this
is in the middle of a discussion in which others
are talking (also metaphorically) about trumps
and declaring hands.
The passage is at
http://tinyurl.com/25lpcz
<URL:http://books.google.com/books?id=Y4W-F4JnVxcC&pg=PA215&
dq=%22the+immortal+game%22+date:0-1950+%22your+call%22&as_brr=3>
if you want to form your own opinion.
After reading the passage, I think that he is talking
about which suit to declare as trumps -- whist talk.
I don't see "the immortal game", but Rudyard Kipling had
Most immortal game this. A man might drop
five whole rupees, if he began playing at
sun-down and kept it up all night.
Don't you ever play whist ...
Also, whist apparently had a convention termed
"call for trumps".
tony cooper
I don't see how. There's no indication in the text that a hand has
been dealt. He can't call a bet that hasn't been made, and a bet
isn't made until the hand is dealt.
The betting limits, though, *are* made before a hand is dealt.
>On the other hand, I wonder how precise the author's poker terminology
>is. On the next page, the man from Saint Jo "covered the bet", which
>I'd have thought meant "called", but his only remaining opponent
>raises,
Yes, but the player following the play who calls can raise the bet.
> and anyway the Missourian is bluffing, so apparently "covered
>the bet" means "raised some amount".
>
I would take it to mean that he matched the amount. That's covering
the bet.
>> The poker usage of "call" that I referred to is the specific act of
>> matching, but not increasing, a bet in one round of betting on one
>> hand. The other usage of "call" deals with deciding who says, not
>> matching.
>>
>> There are three (or more) possible usages of "call" involving the
>> story above. You can call the game (stud, draw, deuces wild),
>> call the betting limits (dollar raises, no limit, table stakes), and
>> call the bet on a round of betting. I suppose you can add "call your
>> wife for a ride home because you bet a pink slip and lost" and "call
>> for a re-deal".
>
>None of those, certainly.
Your call, but disagree. I think it's calling the betting limits.
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
> On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 15:31:34 -0800 (PST), "jerry_fried...@yahoo.com"
Maybe I should have summarized the situation instead of just providing
a link.
The hand (a "jack-pot"--I assume those aren't played any more) was in
progress. The Missourian thought everyone had folded and remarked
that he'd have won more back in Saint Jo. Hertzer angrily points out
that he was still in and asks what was better in Saint Jo. This is
where the Missourian says they used to play with no limit.
> The betting limits, though, *are* made before a hand is dealt.
In violation of this rule, but appropriately for a testosterone
contest, Hertzer puts in a big raise and says he's willing to continue
without a limit.
> >On the other hand, I wonder how precise the author's poker terminology
> >is. On the next page, the man from Saint Jo "covered the bet", which
> >I'd have thought meant "called", but his only remaining opponent
> >raises,
>
> Yes, but the player following the play who calls can raise the bet.
Now you know there are only two players left. In that case, isn't it
true that if one player calls, the betting is over?
> > and anyway the Missourian is bluffing,
The other reason that I don't think he was calling.
> > so apparently "covered
> >the bet" means "raised some amount".
>
> I would take it to mean that he matched the amount. That's covering
> the bet.
That's what I thought, and it's why I said "covered the bet" didn't
seem to be precise terminology.
> >> The poker usage of "call" that I referred to is the specific act of
> >> matching, but not increasing, a bet in one round of betting on one
> >> hand. The other usage of "call" deals with deciding who says, not
> >> matching.
>
> >> There are three (or more) possible usages of "call" involving the
> >> story above. You can call the game (stud, draw, deuces wild),
> >> call the betting limits (dollar raises, no limit, table stakes), and
> >> call the bet on a round of betting. I suppose you can add "call your
> >> wife for a ride home because you bet a pink slip and lost" and "call
> >> for a re-deal".
>
> >None of those, certainly.
>
> Your call, but disagree. I think it's calling the betting limits.
I see I overlooked that possibility, although it was your point. I'm
not certain that this "call" isn't that, but I still don't think so.
I'm sure you're in suspense, by the way. Hertzer eventually raises
$1000 and the Missourian folds. Serves him right for bragging.
--
Jerry Friedman
tony cooper
>Maybe I should have summarized the situation instead of just providing
>a link.
>
>The hand (a "jack-pot"--I assume those aren't played any more) was in
>progress.
Oh, OK. I didn't get that from the context posted.
Moving to "jack-pot", I would think that any poker game could contain
a "jack-pot". That, to me, would be the hand of the evening that had
the largest pot.
In the poker variations of stay-or-drop, (something, usually trips) to
win, there's often one big pot.
Also, in some poker circles, in the last hand of the evening, the
stakes are raised. That would be the jack-pot of the night.
If there's a specific type of game of poker called "jack-pot", I'm not
familiar with it.
> The Missourian thought everyone had folded and remarked
>that he'd have won more back in Saint Jo. Hertzer angrily points out
>that he was still in and asks what was better in Saint Jo. This is
>where the Missourian says they used to play with no limit.
>
>> The betting limits, though, *are* made before a hand is dealt.
>
>In violation of this rule, but appropriately for a testosterone
>contest, Hertzer puts in a big raise and says he's willing to continue
>without a limit.
I've seen that done. Usual prompted by the big loser of the night
hoping to get even.
>> >On the other hand, I wonder how precise the author's poker terminology
>> >is. On the next page, the man from Saint Jo "covered the bet", which
>> >I'd have thought meant "called", but his only remaining opponent
>> >raises,
>>
>> Yes, but the player following the play who calls can raise the bet.
>
>Now you know there are only two players left. In that case, isn't it
>true that if one player calls, the betting is over?
Yes.
>> > and anyway the Missourian is bluffing,
>
>The other reason that I don't think he was calling.
Usually, the bluffer either raises or drops out. Bluffers don't
call unless they think that the other guy is also bluffing.
>> > so apparently "covered
>> >the bet" means "raised some amount".
>>
>> I would take it to mean that he matched the amount. That's covering
>> the bet.
>
>That's what I thought, and it's why I said "covered the bet" didn't
>seem to be precise terminology.
>> >None of those, certainly.
>>
>> Your call, but disagree. I think it's calling the betting limits.
>
>I see I overlooked that possibility, although it was your point. I'm
>not certain that this "call" isn't that, but I still don't think so.
>
>I'm sure you're in suspense, by the way. Hertzer eventually raises
>$1000 and the Missourian folds. Serves him right for bragging.
I seldom follow those links into online text. Usually the discussion
is about the use of a word *in the sentence where it's written*. If
you have to go back several pages or paragraphs to understand, the
author is usually not a good enough wordsmith to bother with.
The concept here - in aue - is usually to understand the
meaning/usage/correctness of a word or short phrase. It's not to
understand the underlying story.
In this case, back-reading would have helped me.
Donna Richoux
> tr...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux) writes:
>
> > Evan Kirshenbaum <kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Here's a figurative sense from 1903:
> >>
> >> "I guess everyone here takes your meaning--which, put into
> >> plain American, is just this: we've got to have those air-ships
> >> and submarines. It doesn't matter about spending a few million
> >> dollars on it. They're worth the money and if anybody gets
> >> hurt over the transfer of the property, well, we have all got
> >> too much at stake, financially and politically to worry much
> >> about that. And now, since we seem to understand each other
> >> fairly well, in the language of the immortal game, it's your
> >> call. What's it to be?"
> >>
> >> George Griffith, _The Lake of Gold_, 1903
> >
> > Every reference to "the immortal game" that I can find refers to
> > chess.
[snip]
> Restricting it to older quotes (before 1950), I see it used of
> cricket, bowls, and what looks from the snippet to be fox hunting.
> But (with this possible exception) no poker. The phrase "in the
> language of the immortal game" shows up twice in this novel. Looking
> at it in context, I'm pretty sure he meant poker, since the same
> character, a page and a half before, also said "to use the language of
> poker", but this is in the middle of a discussion in which others are
> talking (also metaphorically) about trumps and declaring hands.
Yes, bridge is what came to mind for me.
>
> The passage is at
>
> http://tinyurl.com/25lpcz
> <URL:http://books.google.com/books?id=Y4W-F4JnVxcC&pg=PA215&
> dq=%22the+immortal+game%22+date:0-1950+%22your+call%22&as_brr=3>
>
> if you want to form your own opinion.
Where are you getting these passages from? All I get is one of those
annoying "No preview" pages with a map and stuff. No search box (that
would be a "limited view" page). Is there some trick I should know?
Could the restrictions placed on books be different for US GoogleBooks
than in Europe?
What I get when I do the search myself for
"the immortal game" date:0-1950 "your call"
is one hit:
The Lake of Gold: A Narrative of the Anglo-American Conquest of Europe
/ by ...
by George Chetwynd Griffith - Utopias - 1903 - 319 pages Page 215
And now, since we seem to understand each other fairly well, in the
language of the immortal game, it's your calL What's it to ...
No preview available - About this book - Add to my library
Clicking on the title brings up, as I said, one of those not-very-useful
pages.
There was another book a month or so ago where you seemed able to read a
text passage and I wasn't.
Richard Maurer
match the bet. Here is something that undarkles
the origin:
This is called his " bet." The player at
his left may stay out, or he may place
in the pool the same number of chips as
his neighbor (which is called " seeing ").
or he may put in more (which is called " raising "
or " going better "). The third player may stay
out, see, or raise the second player,
and so on, with each in turn, one or more
times around, either till all but one of the
players stay out, when that one takes the pool
without showing his hand, or till all the players
in the game have " seen " the one
that raised last. In the latter case,
they are said to " call" the player
that made the last raise (or the eldest hand,
if no raise was made), who must then show his hand.
If none of the others has a better hand,
they let him take the pool without showing
their hands ; otherwise the higher hands
are shown and the winner takes the pool.
The Young Folk's Cyclopędia of Games and Sports
by John Denison Champlin, Arthur Elmore Bostwick
1899 - see p269
I am guessing that this is a shortening of "call out",
making the raiser show himself (his cards).
Richard Maurer
but this one includes the year, so might be
legitimate, although a bit too snippety:
District of Columbia Appropriations, 1961:
Hearings Before a Subcommittee of ... - Page 2131
by United States Congress. House. Committee on
Appropriations - Washington (D.C.) - 1960
... 1960 ... It is your call. [The prepared statement
referred to follows:] ...
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
> On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 09:00:00 -0800 (PST), "jerry_fried...@yahoo.com"
>
> <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >Maybe I should have summarized the situation instead of just providing
> >a link.
>
> >The hand (a "jack-pot"--I assume those aren't played any more) was in
> >progress.
>
> Oh, OK. I didn't get that from the context posted.
>
> Moving to "jack-pot", I would think that any poker game could contain
> a "jack-pot". That, to me, would be the hand of the evening that had
> the largest pot.
>
> In the poker variations of stay-or-drop, (something, usually trips) to
> win, there's often one big pot.
>
> Also, in some poker circles, in the last hand of the evening, the
> stakes are raised. That would be the jack-pot of the night.
>
> If there's a specific type of game of poker called "jack-pot", I'm not
> familiar with it.
There was (actually "jackpots"), and it's where the word originated,
in the late 19th century. It was draw poker, and you needed a pair of
jacks or better to open. If no one opened, there was a new deal and
the players anted to increase the existing pot, which was now called a
jackpot.
/The New Complete Hoyle/, by Morehead, Frey, and Mott-Smith (1956) is
my source for all this. They suggest that "jackpot" comes from
"jacking up" the amount. They also say this is the most popular form
of poker in America. (Other countries play "blind and straddle", also
called "blind opening" and "blind tiger".) Obviously this is out of
date. (They don't know about Texas hold-em either.)
--
Jerry Friedman
tony cooper
That's what I was describing above, but we played jacks or better to
open and trips to win. Sometimes progressive on openers...jacks, then
queens, then kings and so on. If you dropped out at any time, you
were out of that game. I never heard it called "jackpot". It was
just stay-or-drop.
It's not unusual, though, for a game to have one name in some areas
and a different name somewhere else.
>/The New Complete Hoyle/, by Morehead, Frey, and Mott-Smith (1956) is
>my source for all this. They suggest that "jackpot" comes from
>"jacking up" the amount. They also say this is the most popular form
>of poker in America.
Oleg Lego
>On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 23:43:59 -0600, Oleg Lego <r...@atatatat.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 20:04:38 -0500, tony cooper posted:
>>
>>>On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 12:39:21 -0800 (PST), "jerry_f...@yahoo.com"
>>><jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Isn't "call" what you do what you say "heads" or "tails" -- "Whose
>>>>> call?" meaning "Who gets to call it?"
>>>>
>>>>I've never heard "Whose call?" that way.
>>>>
>>>The referee at the beginning of an (Am) football game at a neutral
>>>site needs to know whose call it is, but I don't he needs to ask the
>>>players on the field. He's informed in advance.
>>>
>>>This is for the coin flip that decides which team kicks and which team
>>>will receive. The winner of the flip decides that, and the loser
>>>decides which goal to defend.
>>
>>Is the winner of the toss allowed to defer the choice to the second
>>half, as in Canadian football?
>
>Not defer, but the choices switch for the start of the second half.
>You can't defer the choice. One team must kick and one team must
>receive at the start of the first half or the game never gets
>underway.
Interesting. The CFL rules are quite different. This is from the
official rules...
"At the start of the game, the captains of both teams shall meet the
Referee at centre field. The Referee shall toss a coin with the
visiting team captain making the call. The captain of the team
winning the coin toss shall declare whether to have first choice at
the start of the first or second half.
The captain of team having first choice at the start of the first
half shall choose between:
(a) kicking off or receiving the kickoff or,
(b) which end of the field to defend.
The captain of the other team shall have first choice at the start of
the second half, when both captains shall again meet the Referee at
centre field to make their choices."
>The team that kicks off at the start of the first half receives at the
>start of the second half. The goal choice switches too.
>
>The coin toss is also used in (Am) football in a "sudden death"
>overtime where the first team to score wins.
The rules for overtime in the CFL are VERY different indeed.
--
WCdnE
tony cooper
wrote:
I think Evan found that in (Am) this is also true, but the word
"defer" threw me off. I don't recall the teams ever meeting with the
ref at the beginning of the second half, though. They may meet, but
I've never seen the center-of-the-field thing.
Oleg Lego
"Defer" is what the refs say when announcing that the winner of the
toss has decided to take first choice in the second half. The rules
spell ut the same thing, but in different words.
> I don't recall the teams ever meeting with the
>ref at the beginning of the second half, though. They may meet, but
>I've never seen the center-of-the-field thing.
Right.. same in CFL games.
--
WCdnE
Mark Brader
> After reading the passage, I think that he is talking
> about which suit to declare as trumps -- whist talk.
Nope. The trump suit in whist was random. A form of bridge
<http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Biritch,_or_Russian_Whist>,
now called straight bridge or bridge-whist, existed by 1903
and did have players declaring a trump suit, but it was quite
a new game and therefore I wouldn't expect people to be calling
it "immortal".
> Also, whist apparently had a convention termed
> "call for trumps".
"Call for" here means "request". It's about requesting your
partner to lead a trump.
--
Mark Brader | "Earthmen learned how to send ships through space, and
m...@vex.net | so initiated human history, though I suppose there was
Toronto | previous history on Earth." -- Jack Vance, "Emphyrio"
My text in this article is in the public domain.
Mark Brader
> > I looked again for "It's your call" in Google Books, and found:
> >
> > Idiomatic English Sentences with Swedish Equivalents, 1959
> > It's your call [at bridge] Det är du som bjuder.
> >
> > Anyone know enough Swedish to read that? From what you say, "Your turn
> > to bid"?
Lars Enderin wroten:
> Word-by-word translation: It is you who bids. I don't play bridge, but
> it sounds reasonable.
Makes sense. As explained already, a "call" in bridge is the formal
term embracing a pass, bid, double, or redouble. In everyday usage
these are all called bids, and we'd say "It's your bid" rather than
"It's your call".
As to the idiom originally asked about, I would consider it obvious
that it refers to refereeing, printed evidence or not. The fact that
there are other meanings of "call" is irrelevant. A "call" is a
judgement decision, such as referees are entitled to make. Further,
I don't know why people in this thread keep talking about "it's your
call" as if it was a fixed expression. "Call" can have this generalized
meaning just as well in other expressions.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "If we gave people a choice, there would be chaos."
m...@vex.net | -- Dick McDonald
Donna Richoux
> As to the idiom originally asked about, I would consider it obvious
> that it refers to refereeing, printed evidence or not.
The referee's calls and not the coach, captain & quarterback calling
plays? Two different things. And I just can't imagine anyone telling a
referee that something was indeed his call, thus generating a phrase.
Surely referees don't routinely argue with each other over their
call-making authority? Whereas the other situation is full of
conflicting opinions.
>The fact that
> there are other meanings of "call" is irrelevant.
Not to the history of the word and phrase, it isn't. We don't get to
establish etymology by declaration.
>A "call" is a
> judgement decision, such as referees are entitled to make. Further,
> I don't know why people in this thread keep talking about "it's your
> call" as if it was a fixed expression.
Because it's the most common form of the expression? When detached from
sports context? It's used as the name of TV shows, radio shows
(particularly for viewer phone-ins), music CDs, social programs,
businesses, headlines... Many of these involve telephones, as a pun. I
have to go fairly deep into the 164,000 web hits for "it's your call" to
get past these stylized uses to more conversational ones, like:
It's your call - go with what you feel the most
comfortable with. If she likes you,
It's your call, but especially for the first few
years, it might be simplest to just bring it in to
your dealer for servicing.
Exactly like "It's up to you," I'd say. Maybe that's not a "fixed
phrase," either, but what is it?
Switching to Google Books for date ranges:
663 on "it's your call" date:2000-2008
607 on "it's your call" date:1990-1999
41 on "it's your call" date:1980-1989
10 on "it's your call" date:1970-1979
7 on "it's your call" date:1960-1969
2 on "it's your call" date:1950-1959
Of the last line, one is bridge and the other is a journal dating error,
an ad for the answering machines -- calls, geddit? -- of the Dynascan
Corporation, founded 1998.
There's a certain growth effect simply in more recent books being
available digitally, but that can be controlled for and I'm sure that
sharp of a dropoff does not show for other terms... Here's a comparison:
1148 on "it's up to you" date:2000-2008
660 on "it's up to you" date:1950-1959
That being said, I do agree that we're not talking here of a single
fixed phrase -- it can be "my call," "his call," "not my call," "whose
call," etc. "It being someone's call" almost summarizes it, but not
quite.
>"Call" can have this generalized
> meaning just as well in other expressions.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
tony cooper
wrote:
>Mark Brader <m...@vex.net> wrote:
>
>> As to the idiom originally asked about, I would consider it obvious
>> that it refers to refereeing, printed evidence or not.
>
>The referee's calls and not the coach, captain & quarterback calling
>plays? Two different things. And I just can't imagine anyone telling a
>referee that something was indeed his call,
Done all the time where there is more than one official on the field.
The other referees or umpires will indicate that the one nearest the
play or with the best sight of the play should make the call. Whether
they point, nod, or say "It's your call" changes, but the intent is
the same.
> thus generating a phrase.
I don't know if it is the source of the phrase, but I'm inclined to
think so.
>Surely referees don't routinely argue with each other over their
>call-making authority? Whereas the other situation is full of
>conflicting opinions.
It's not an argument. It's an agreement. Let's say one referee
signals "touchdown", but another referee - with a better line of sight
- says it is not a touchdown. The first referee will agree that the
second referee can make the call. A third referee can be consulted
to determine which was best positioned to make the call.
Just because the two don't stand there and jaw about which is right
doesn't mean there isn't conflict. The first referee doesn't like
being wrong, but he's not supposed to show it on the field.
Nowadays, the "call" can be made by cameras and a reviewing crew in a
booth, but it wasn't always this way.
While I've used football as an example, the same process of deciding
which official should make the call exists in basketball and baseball.
Evan Kirshenbaum
I see exactly the same thing, except that mine says "Full view" rather
than "No Preview available". Strange thought, but you're in the
Netherlands rather than the US and I wonder if the book might not
still be under copyright there and so Google Books is refusing to
serve it to you. Although Griffith died in 1906, so I would think it
would be public domain by now.
Google digitized the book from Harvard's collection.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Usenet is like Tetris for people
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |who still remember how to read.
Palo Alto, CA 94304
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
Paul Wolff
>> annoying "No preview" pages with a map and stuff. No search box
>> (that would be a "limited view" page). Is there some trick I should
>> know? Could the restrictions placed on books be different for US
>> GoogleBooks than in Europe?
>>
>> What I get when I do the search myself for
>>
>> "the immortal game" date:0-1950 "your call"
>>
>> is one hit:
>>
>> The Lake of Gold: A Narrative of the Anglo-American Conquest of Europe
>> / by ...
>> by George Chetwynd Griffith - Utopias - 1903 - 319 pages Page 215
>> And now, since we seem to understand each other fairly well, in the
>> language of the immortal game, it's your calL What's it to ...
>> No preview available - About this book - Add to my library
>
>I see exactly the same thing, except that mine says "Full view" rather
>than "No Preview available". Strange thought, but you're in the
>Netherlands rather than the US and I wonder if the book might not
>still be under copyright there and so Google Books is refusing to
>serve it to you. Although Griffith died in 1906, so I would think it
>would be public domain by now.
>
>Google digitized the book from Harvard's collection.
>
I can't visualise a European (in the broad-brush sense) copyright issue
attaching to this specific publication if it was published in 1903 and
the author died in 1906. But Google may have a catch-all policy
designed to err towards caution. They probably don't want to defer
electronic re-publication until they have examined each book for
possible copyright deadlines. After all, not every book has a single
author with easily discovered clog-popping year, and who would want the
research job anyway?
--
Paul
Nick
Wild guess - Harvard attached some strings to letting Google borrow it.
Reunite Gondwanaland (Mary Shafer)
wrote:
> Mark Brader <m...@vex.net> wrote:
>
> > As to the idiom originally asked about, I would consider it obvious
> > that it refers to refereeing, printed evidence or not.
>
> The referee's calls and not the coach, captain & quarterback calling
> plays? Two different things. And I just can't imagine anyone telling a
> referee that something was indeed his call, thus generating a phrase.
> Surely referees don't routinely argue with each other over their
> call-making authority?
You don't watch much pro football, do you? The referee, head
linesman, and umpire discuss calls, sometimes heatedly. I've seen all
seven of them in a discussion with arms waving.
I've thought all along it was referring to sports of some sort. In
many sports the closest official "makes the call" and the others, who
may not agree, concede the point. Deciding whether a ball hit in or
out, in a tennis game without a line judge, involves looking at the
player who was closest and saying "It's your call".
But maybe it's really from naval aviation, where pilots are required
to "call the ball" on approach to an aircraft carrier to indicate that
they can see the illuminated Fresnel lens indicating that they're on
glidepath and the visibility is adequate.
That's a joke, illustrating that making a call about a ball is not
limited purely to sports, even though that's probably where it
started.
Mary 'You "call the ball" by saying "Clara", if that helps'
--
Mary Shafer Retired aerospace research engineer
We didn't just do weird stuff at Dryden, we wrote reports about it.
reunite....@gmail.com or mil...@qnet.com
Visit my blog at http://thedigitalknitter.blogspot.com/
Donna Richoux
> On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 14:12:12 +0100, tr...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux)
> wrote:
>
> > Mark Brader <m...@vex.net> wrote:
> >
> > > As to the idiom originally asked about, I would consider it obvious
> > > that it refers to refereeing, printed evidence or not.
> >
> > The referee's calls and not the coach, captain & quarterback calling
> > plays? Two different things. And I just can't imagine anyone telling a
> > referee that something was indeed his call, thus generating a phrase.
> > Surely referees don't routinely argue with each other over their
> > call-making authority?
>
> You don't watch much pro football, do you? The referee, head
> linesman, and umpire discuss calls, sometimes heatedly. I've seen all
> seven of them in a discussion with arms waving.
You're right, it's been a very long time since I watched US football (or
the soccer/football they have here, either). I think it's quite
plausible that the current phrase has US football origins, but I'm not
going to take it on faith.
Actually, what we need to account for is the resigned-shrug feel of
"It's your call." It's not "You should have paid attention," but "I'll
keep out of this."
>
> I've thought all along it was referring to sports of some sort. In
> many sports the closest official "makes the call" and the others, who
> may not agree, concede the point. Deciding whether a ball hit in or
> out, in a tennis game without a line judge, involves looking at the
> player who was closest and saying "It's your call".
You say that as if you have literally heard those words uttered in that
scenario, on more than one occasion. Is that what you mean?
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
> On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 17:29:22 -0800 (PST), "jerry_fried...@yahoo.com"
>
>
>
> <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >On Jan 26, 1:16 pm, tony cooper <tony_cooper...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >> If there's a specific type of game of poker called "jack-pot", I'm not
> >> familiar with it.
> >...
>
> >There was (actually "jackpots"), and it's where the word originated,
> >in the late 19th century. It was draw poker, and you needed a pair of
> >jacks or better to open. If no one opened, there was a new deal and
> >the players anted to increase the existing pot, which was now called a
> >jackpot.
>
> That's what I was describing above, but we played jacks or better to
> open and trips to win. Sometimes progressive on openers...jacks, then
> queens, then kings and so on. If you dropped out at any time, you
> were out of that game. I never heard it called "jackpot". It was
> just stay-or-drop.
Was there a word for an extra-large pot following a deal with no
openers?
> It's not unusual, though, for a game to have one name in some areas
> and a different name somewhere else.
...
That appears to be what's going on here. Morehead, Frey, and Mott-
Smith's "bet or drop" is straight draw poker, no minimum to open, no
"pass" or "check" to stay in for free before the first bet has been
made. Neither their "jackpots" nor their "bet or drop" has a minimum
to win.
--
Jerry Friedman
Reunite Gondwanaland (Mary Shafer)
wrote:
Yes, I have. I've both played and watched a fair amount of
indifferent tennis. Of course, sometimes the closest player wasn't
looking at the ball (I said it was indifferent tennis) and the
response is, "No, it's someone else's call."
Mary "At this point, gritted teeth become involved"
tony cooper
>On Jan 26, 7:17 pm, tony cooper <tony_cooper...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 17:29:22 -0800 (PST), "jerry_fried...@yahoo.com"
>>
>>
>>
>> <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >On Jan 26, 1:16 pm, tony cooper <tony_cooper...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>...
>
>> >> If there's a specific type of game of poker called "jack-pot", I'm not
>> >> familiar with it.
>> >...
>>
>> >There was (actually "jackpots"), and it's where the word originated,
>> >in the late 19th century. It was draw poker, and you needed a pair of
>> >jacks or better to open. If no one opened, there was a new deal and
>> >the players anted to increase the existing pot, which was now called a
>> >jackpot.
>>
>> That's what I was describing above, but we played jacks or better to
>> open and trips to win. Sometimes progressive on openers...jacks, then
>> queens, then kings and so on. If you dropped out at any time, you
>> were out of that game. I never heard it called "jackpot". It was
>> just stay-or-drop.
>
>Was there a word for an extra-large pot following a deal with no
>openers?
Not that I know of by that description. A "jackpot" was anything big.
You hit the jackpot when won any big hand, found a box of nudist
magazines in someone's trash, or finally got a date with a particular
girl. The word was associated with anything big and good, but not any
more with a card game than anything else.
>> It's not unusual, though, for a game to have one name in some areas
>> and a different name somewhere else.
>...
>That appears to be what's going on here. Morehead, Frey, and Mott-
>Smith's "bet or drop" is straight draw poker, no minimum to open, no
>"pass" or "check" to stay in for free before the first bet has been
>made. Neither their "jackpots" nor their "bet or drop" has a minimum
>to win.
With Texas Hold'em a popular game and shown on TV, poker has taken on
a new dimension. When I were a lad, we didn't read books on poker or
study strategies. Poker variations were invented on the fly, and
often what we "invented" was a variation that was used somewhere else
and we didn't know it. What we did learn about the rules was learned
from the older boys or watching our fathers in their poker nights.
We played variations like "Michigan" which was seven card stud, two
down, four up, one down, with the high spade splitting the pot. I
wouldn't be surprised if others reading this played the same game and
called it "Michigan, or "Friedman" or "Walnut". I wouldn't be
surprised if some used a down club, diamond or heart as a
pot-splitter.
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
> On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 16:52:14 -0800 (PST), "jerry_fried...@yahoo.com"
To return to topics of general a.u.e. interest, are there other
examples where a word of phrase originated in a game, the game is
still played, and the word is still used--but not in the game?
> With Texas Hold'em a popular game and shown on TV, poker has taken on
> a new dimension. When I were a lad, we didn't read books on poker or
> study strategies. Poker variations were invented on the fly, and
> often what we "invented" was a variation that was used somewhere else
> and we didn't know it. What we did learn about the rules was learned
> from the older boys or watching our fathers in their poker nights.
>
> We played variations like "Michigan" which was seven card stud, two
> down, four up, one down, with the high spade splitting the pot. I
> wouldn't be surprised if others reading this played the same game and
> called it "Michigan, or "Friedman" or "Walnut". I wouldn't be
> surprised if some used a down club, diamond or heart as a
> pot-splitter.
Calling it "Friedman" is forbidden.
--
Jerry Friedman
Evan Kirshenbaum
> To return to topics of general a.u.e. interest, are there other
> examples where a word of phrase originated in a game, the game is
> still played, and the word is still used--but not in the game?
From what I've seen of poker players these days, very few of them have
the opportunity to play a hand "close to the vest" anymore.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |First Law of Anthropology:
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 | If they're doing something you
Palo Alto, CA 94304 | don't understand, it's either an
| isolated lunatic, a religious
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com | ritual, or art.
(650)857-7572
Evan Kirshenbaum
> I was wondering how "call" in poker came to mean match the bet.
> Here is something that undarkles the origin:
>
> This is called his " bet." The player at his left may stay out,
> or he may place in the pool the same number of chips as his
> neighbor (which is called " seeing "). or he may put in more
> (which is called " raising " or " going better "). The third
> player may stay out, see, or raise the second player, and so on,
> with each in turn, one or more times around, either till all but
> one of the players stay out, when that one takes the pool
> without showing his hand, or till all the players in the game
> have " seen " the one that raised last. In the latter case, they
> are said to " call" the player that made the last raise (or the
> eldest hand, if no raise was made), who must then show his hand.
> If none of the others has a better hand, they let him take the
> pool without showing their hands ; otherwise the higher hands
> are shown and the winner takes the pool.
>
> The Young Folk's Cyclopędia of Games and Sports by John
> Denison Champlin, Arthur Elmore Bostwick 1899 - see p269
>
>
> I am guessing that this is a shortening of "call out", making the
> raiser show himself (his cards).
_The American Hoyle_ (1894) says "call for a show of hands" and
defines the term:
CALL.--When the bet goes round to the last player who remains in,
if he does not wish to see and go better he simply sees and calls,
and then all those playing show their hands, and the highest hand
wins the pool.
So the options were "see and go better" (or "see and raise") or "see
and call". Interestingly, in that book they use "go in" for what is
now "open" and "pass" for what is now "fold"
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |I like giving talks to industry,
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |because one of the things that I've
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |found is that you really can't
|learn anything at the Harvard
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |Business School.
(650)857-7572 | Clayton Christensen
| Harvard Business School
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/
Evan Kirshenbaum
Heard it and used it (not specifically in tennis, but in sports). As
a soccer ref, it's drummed into us in training that the AR (linesman)
can raise his flag when he sees an infraction, but that it's the
referee's call whether the whistle gets blown. And I can definitely
recall a game where a not-exactly-unbiased AR (whom I was sorely
tempted to throw out by the end) got on my case for not calling
everything he saw, in which I'm fairly certain I said both "It's my
call" and "That's not your call" more than once. In training, it was
also communicated that it's the referee's call (and not the coaches'
or anybody else's) whether it's raining too hard to continue playing.
As a baseball coach, I've been on the other side, teaching my kids not
to argue with the umpire's calls, and again "That's his call" (meaning
not "That's what he said" but "It's his decision to make, not yours")
and "That's not your call" have both come out of my mouth. Ditto when
I felt that an opposing coach was trying to intimidate the (usually
teenage) umpire: "Hey, it's *his* call."
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |The law of supply and demand tells us
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |that when the price of something is
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |artificially set below market level,
|there will soon be none of that thing
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |left--as you may have noticed the
(650)857-7572 |last time you tried to buy something
|for nothing.
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | P.J. O'Rourke
R H Draney
>
>"jerry_f...@yahoo.com" <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>> To return to topics of general a.u.e. interest, are there other
>> examples where a word of phrase originated in a game, the game is
>> still played, and the word is still used--but not in the game?
>
>From what I've seen of poker players these days, very few of them have
>the opportunity to play a hand "close to the vest" anymore.
You're thinking of Jennifer Tilly, I'll wager....
I suppose if her arms were longer --
....r
--
What good is being an executive if you never get to execute anyone?
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
> "jerry_fried...@yahoo.com" <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> writes:
> > To return to topics of general a.u.e. interest, are there other
> > examples where a word of phrase originated in a game, the game is
> > still played, and the word is still used--but not in the game?
>
> From what I've seen of poker players these days, very few of them have
> the opportunity to play a hand "close to the vest" anymore.
Maybe in the British meaning of vest.
You answered the question I asked, but it wasn't what I meant. How
about one where the word or phrase is still used, but people don't
know that it came from the game they still play?
--
Jerry Friedman
Nick
>
> To return to topics of general a.u.e. interest, are there other
> examples where a word of phrase originated in a game, the game is
> still played, and the word is still used--but not in the game?
I think it might apply to some of the cribbage terms like "streets
ahead" (if you believe that story).
tony cooper
Would "His Nibs" count? I've heard the expression used to mean a
person who thinks he is important, and used by a person who doesn't
play cribbage. The cribbage term is also spelled "His Nobs", but
"Nibs" is also used.
Amethyst Deceiver
@earthlink.net says...
No, it wouldn't count, because it's not a game that the user plays.
Jerry did ask about terms coming from games that the user still plays,
after all.
--
Linz
Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford
My accent may vary
Donna Richoux
If *nobody at all* knows that a term came from that game (including, as
you say, people who play the modern game), how are *we* supposed to know
that it did? Maybe it didn't.
Does "coming from a game" include older words that happened to be
employed in a particular game, or did they have to be completely new
inventions?
I could go on in listing the problems I have with your question, but
I'll stop there. I think you packed too many restrictions in there, that
need clarification at best.
Trying to find a simpler case: do people say "Bingo" (meaning, "That's
it") because of the game "Bingo" (probably), or was the game "Bingo"
given its name because people already used "Bingo" to mean, say, Eureka,
achieved? (Possible - and in fact MW lists the definitions in that
historical order!)
--
Perplexed -- Donna Richoux
Donna Richoux
> Would "His Nibs" count? I've heard the expression used to mean a
> person who thinks he is important, and used by a person who doesn't
> play cribbage. The cribbage term is also spelled "His Nobs", but
> "Nibs" is also used.
>
> http://hisnibs.blogspot.com/
I don't understand why you think this originated with cribbage. What
does it mean there?
MW11 says:
Main Entry: nibs
Function: noun plural but singular in construction
Etymology: origin unknown
Date: circa 1821
: an important or self-important person -- usually used in the phrases
his nibs or her nibs as if a title of honor
tony cooper
wrote:
>tony cooper <tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> Would "His Nibs" count? I've heard the expression used to mean a
>> person who thinks he is important, and used by a person who doesn't
>> play cribbage. The cribbage term is also spelled "His Nobs", but
>> "Nibs" is also used.
>>
>> http://hisnibs.blogspot.com/
>
>I don't understand why you think this originated with cribbage.
I don't understand why you think I think it originated with cribbage.
I know it as a cribbage term, but have never given any thought to
where it originated.
Donna Richoux
I read that as being one of the half-a-dozen conditions Jerry packed
into his little challenge. What he first said was:
> To return to topics of general a.u.e. interest, are there other
> examples where a word of phrase originated in a game, the game is
> still played, and the word is still used--but not in the game?
And then he said:
> You answered the question I asked, but it wasn't what I meant. How
> about one where the word or phrase is still used, but people don't
> know that it came from the game they still play?
Let's wait for a ruling.
tony cooper
wrote:
OK. Disqualify "His Nibs".
>Let's wait for a ruling.
No need. I made the call.
CDB
[jackpot]
> To return to topics of general a.u.e. interest, are there other
> examples where a word of phrase originated in a game, the game is
> still played, and the word is still used--but not in the game?
Do poker players still use "buck" to mean "token indicating who has
the deal"?
http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/pass-the-buck.html
[...]
Mark Brader
> You answered the question I asked, but it wasn't what I meant. How
> about one where the word or phrase is still used, but people don't
> know that it came from the game they still play?
How about "pass the buck"?
From the use of a buckknife to mark the dealer's position in poker.
--
Mark Brader "A moment's thought would have shown him,
Toronto but a moment is a long time and thought
m...@vex.net is a painful process." -- A. E. Housman
Mark Brader
> > To return to topics of general a.u.e. interest, are there other
> > examples where a word of phrase originated in a game, the game is
> > still played, and the word is still used--but not in the game?
> I think it might apply to some of the cribbage terms like "streets
> ahead" (if you believe that story).
What does "streets ahead" mean in cribbage, and what's the story about
its originating there? There seems to be an obvious interpretation as
a metaphor for a race run through the streets of a town -- someone is
in the lead by several blocks.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "You can fool too many of the people
m...@vex.net too much of the time." -- James Thurber
Oleg Lego
I don't know if I misheard it, but I always thought that was the
"puck".
--
WCdnE
CDB
The puck stops here, he said through his teeth. And then he planted.
Nick
> Jerry Friedman:
>>> To return to topics of general a.u.e. interest, are there other
>>> examples where a word of phrase originated in a game, the game is
>>> still played, and the word is still used--but not in the game?
>
> "Nick":
>> I think it might apply to some of the cribbage terms like "streets
>> ahead" (if you believe that story).
>
> What does "streets ahead" mean in cribbage, and what's the story about
> its originating there? There seems to be an obvious interpretation as
> a metaphor for a race run through the streets of a town -- someone is
> in the lead by several blocks.
I'm not actually sure, I rarely play the game. It's to do with being a
row of holes on the traditional score board ahead of others I think.
A quick Google on <cribbage streets ahead> give you lots of claims that
it, and pile of other expressions that would pass the test (like "a turn
up for the books") come from the game.
I've heard it before, which is why I quoted it now, but have always
shared your view that it's got a quite transparent meaning independent
of the game.
Amethyst Deceiver
More commonly they use "button" for that now.
Amethyst Deceiver
says...
> tony cooper <tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > Would "His Nibs" count? I've heard the expression used to mean a
> > person who thinks he is important, and used by a person who doesn't
> > play cribbage. The cribbage term is also spelled "His Nobs", but
> > "Nibs" is also used.
> >
> > http://hisnibs.blogspot.com/
>
> I don't understand why you think this originated with cribbage. What
> does it mean there?
His nibs is a specific Jack. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cribbage
> MW11 says:
>
> Main Entry: nibs
> Function: noun plural but singular in construction
> Etymology: origin unknown
> Date: circa 1821
> : an important or self-important person -- usually used in the phrases
> his nibs or her nibs as if a title of honor
Which is how it is used in crib. Having his nibs gives you points.
CDB
> In article <fnnj6l$f84$1...@aioe.org>, belle...@sympatico.ca says...
>> jerry_f...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>
>> [jackpot]
>>
>>> To return to topics of general a.u.e. interest, are there other
>>> examples where a word of phrase originated in a game, the game is
>>> still played, and the word is still used--but not in the game?
>>
>> Do poker players still use "buck" to mean "token indicating who has
>> the deal"?
>> http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/pass-the-buck.html
>
> More commonly they use "button" for that now.
Thank you; IANAPP. So it qualifies, although I see Mark got there
first.
Richard Maurer
To return to topics of general a.u.e. interest,
are there other examples where a word of phrase
originated in a game, the game is still played,
and the word is still used--but not in the game?
Jerry Friedman clarified:
You answered the question I asked, but it wasn't
what I meant. How about one where the word
or phrase is still used, but people don't know
that it came from the game they still play?
You have another think coming.
-- ---------------------------------------------
Richard Maurer To reply, remove half
Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Brader
> > > Would "His Nibs" count? I've heard the expression used to mean a
> > > person who thinks he is important, and used by a person who doesn't
> > > play cribbage. The cribbage term is also spelled "His Nobs", but
> > > "Nibs" is also used.
Donna Richoux:
> > I don't understand why you think this originated with cribbage. What
> > does it mean there?
Linz Endell:
> His nibs is a specific Jack. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cribbage
Well, sure. But where's the evidence that it had that meaning *before*
it referred to a person? The card itself refers to a person, after all.
--
Mark Brader "Male got pregnant -- on the first try."
Toronto Newsweek article on high-tech conception
m...@vex.net November 30, 1987
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
> jerry_fried...@yahoo.com <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On Jan 28, 9:32 am, Evan Kirshenbaum <kirshenb...@hpl.hp.com> wrote:
> > > "jerry_fried...@yahoo.com" <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> writes:
> > > > To return to topics of general a.u.e. interest, are there other
> > > > examples where a word of phrase originated in a game, the game is
> > > > still played, and the word is still used--but not in the game?
>
> > > the opportunity to play a hand "close to the vest" anymore.
>
> > Maybe in the British meaning of vest.
>
> > You answered the question I asked, but it wasn't what I meant. How
> > about one where the word or phrase is still used, but people don't
> > know that it came from the game they still play?
>
> If *nobody at all* knows that a term came from that game (including, as
> you say, people who play the modern game), how are *we* supposed to know
> that it did? Maybe it didn't.
>
> Does "coming from a game" include older words that happened to be
> employed in a particular game, or did they have to be completely new
> inventions?
>
> I could go on in listing the problems I have with your question, but
> I'll stop there. I think you packed too many restrictions in there, that
> need clarification at best.
Okay, I'm looking for a term (a word, a sense of a word, a phrase)
that
a) originates in a game
b) that is still played,
c) a term that in other contexts is used by some players of the game
d) who don't know that the term originated in the game they play, or
what feature of the game it applied to.
Mark's "pass the buck" is probably an example.
I'd like to add condition
e) The players still use the feature to which the term applied. So a
tennis player's use of "from pillar to post" wouldn't count (assuming
the phrase is from some old variety of real/court tennis).
I'd have said this retroactively invalidates "pass the buck", but Linz
says poker players still use a token to show whose turn it is to
deal. (The NSOED, by the way, says the origin of this "buck" is
unknown. Is "buck-knife" known from more recent evidence?)
All this together is what struck me about Tony's (and no doubt
millions of others') use of "jackpot". He used the word in a derived
sense, and he played the game in which jackpots occur, but in the game
he didn't call them jackpots.
I don't know about "turn-up for the books" (which the NSOED doesn't
ascribe to any specific card or dice game), since I have no feeling
for this rest-of-the-world expression. Are there people who play
games with turn-ups who use the expression but don't know what kind of
turn-up it refers to?
> Trying to find a simpler case: do people say "Bingo" (meaning, "That's
> it") because of the game "Bingo" (probably), or was the game "Bingo"
> given its name because people already used "Bingo" to mean, say, Eureka,
> achieved? (Possible - and in fact MW lists the definitions in that
> historical order!)
That isn't what I'm looking for, as everyone who plays bingo uses the
word "bingo" (as far as I know).
The NSOED agrees with MW: it dates the exclamation to the early 20th
century and the name of the game to the mid 20th century, and says the
name of the game is "perhaps from the winner's exclamation".
I hope that's clear. I'm not trying to be obscure. Riddle who list,
for me, and pull for prime.
--
Jerry Friedman
Mark Brader
> Mark's "pass the buck" is probably an example.
> unknown. Is "buck-knife" known from more recent evidence?)
Apparently the correct form, or a more proper form, is "buckhorn knife".
The RHU and the online AHD both give this as the origin; I didn't know
it was disputed.
--
Mark Brader "HE'S the brains of the outfit."
Toronto "What does that make you?"
m...@vex.net "What else? An executive!"
-- the Rocky & Bullwinkle show
Fred Springer
> I don't know about "turn-up for the books" (which the NSOED doesn't
> ascribe to any specific card or dice game), since I have no feeling
> for this rest-of-the-world expression. Are there people who play
> games with turn-ups who use the expression but don't know what kind of
> turn-up it refers to?
>
It's a horse racing term, more often in my experience "a real turn-up
for the book". It means a surprising win for a horse which hasn't been
very widely backed, and therefore a good outcome for the bookmakers.
Amethyst Deceiver
> Tony Cooper:
> > > > Would "His Nibs" count? I've heard the expression used to mean a
> > > > person who thinks he is important, and used by a person who doesn't
> > > > play cribbage. The cribbage term is also spelled "His Nobs", but
> > > > "Nibs" is also used.
>
> Donna Richoux:
> > > I don't understand why you think this originated with cribbage. What
> > > does it mean there?
>
> Linz Endell:
> > His nibs is a specific Jack. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cribbage
>
> Well, sure. But where's the evidence that it had that meaning *before*
> it referred to a person? The card itself refers to a person, after all.
I have no idea. I wasn't answering that. I was answering "what does his
nibs mean in cribbage?".
LFS
>
> I don't know about "turn-up for the books" (which the NSOED doesn't
> ascribe to any specific card or dice game), since I have no feeling
> for this rest-of-the-world expression. Are there people who play
> games with turn-ups who use the expression but don't know what kind of
> turn-up it refers to?
>
Michael Quinion answered this for me some time ago:
http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-tur1.htm
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Mark Brader
>>>>> Would "His Nibs" count? I've heard the expression used to mean a
>>>>> person who thinks he is important, and used by a person who doesn't
>>>>> play cribbage. The cribbage term is also spelled "His Nobs", but
>>>>> "Nibs" is also used.
Donna Richoux:
>>>> I don't understand why you think this originated with cribbage. What
>>>> does it mean there?
Linz Endell:
>>> His nibs is a specific Jack. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cribbage
Mark Brader:
>> Well, sure. But where's the evidence that it had that meaning *before*
>> it referred to a person? The card itself refers to a person, after all.
Linz Endell:
> I have no idea. I wasn't answering that. I was answering "what does his
> nibs mean in cribbage?".
Oh. But you see how it was confusing, since you quoted Donna's previous
sentence as well.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "In cyberspace, the lunatics not only run the asylum,
m...@vex.net | but they helped build it..." --Richard Kadrey
Snidely
> Linz Endell:
> > I have no idea. I wasn't answering that. I was answering "what does his
> > nibs mean in cribbage?".
>
> Oh. But you see how it was confusing, since you quoted Donna's previous
> sentence as well.
I call for the question!
/dps
Mark Brader
> > I don't know about "turn-up for the books" (which the NSOED doesn't
> > ascribe to any specific card or dice game), since I have no feeling
Laura Spira:
> Michael Quinion answered this for me some time ago:
> http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-tur1.htm
I might as well quote what he said, to get it into the thread:
# It now means exactly what you say, something surprising. The
# origin is in horse racing, where the book was the record of bets
# laid on a race kept by -- who else -- a bookmaker. So when a horse
# performed in a way that nobody expected, so that most bets lost,
# it was something that benefited the book and so the bookmaker.
# The classic example would be a rank outsider that won with few
# bets on it, netting the bookmaker a nice windfall profit.
Well, that's a surprise. I would have guessed that "a turn-up"
just meant something that's "turned up", i.e. happened -- and I was
sure that "for the books" was the same usage seen in the expression
"that's one of the books", and meant something that would go into
the history books, or record books.
But I see that in Laura's query and Michael's reply, "book" is singular,
and that puts a different perspective on it. The singular is the less
common form now:
"a turn-up for the book" 6,780
"a turn-up for the books" 15,600
But that doesn't mean it's not the original. Oh, and for comparison:
"one for the books" 289,000
"one for the book" 381,000
I'm surprised to see this expression apparently more common in the singular,
as it is unfamiliar to me.
Here are the same queries with "That's" at the front:
"that's a turn-up for the book" 2,110
"that's a turn-up for the books" 4,030
"that's one for the books" 22,200
"that's one for the book" 52,000
Anyone feel look doing some searches for early uses of these expressions?
--
Mark Brader "Remember, this is Mark we're dealing with.
Toronto Rationality and fact won't work very well."
m...@vex.net -- Jeff Scott Franzman
My text in this article is in the public domain.