double negatives and English humour
Christopher Kluth
I just wondered if anyone has any thoughts on the humour that is often
to be derived from the use of double negatives (or positives) in English.
I think it was in Stephen Fry's novel "The Hippopotamus" that there's
an old Cambridge professor who speaks almost exclusively in double
negatives. This made for very enjoyable reading!
I found the following three items on the Web:
1. A linguistics professor was lecturing to his class one day. 'In English,' he said, 'A double negative forms
a positive. In some languages, though, such as Russian, a double negative is still a negative. However,
there is no language wherein a double positive can form a negative.'
A voice from the back of the room piped up, 'Yeah, right.'
2. It is not true, as some assert, that double negatives are always wrong; but the pattern in formal
speech and writing is that two negatives equal a mild positive: "he is a not untalented guitarist"
means he has some talent. In informal speech, however, double negatives are intended as negatives:
"he ain't got no talent" means he is a lousy musician. People are rarely confused about the meaning
of either pattern, but you do need to take your audience into account when deciding which pattern to
follow.
3. One of the funniest uses of the literary double negative is Douglas Adams' description of a machine
dispensing "a substance almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea."
If anyone has had any humourous experiences with double negatives, I'd
really enjoy reading about them.
Regards,
Christopher
(Christopher Kluth)
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Date: Tue Jun 26 19:18:02 2001 GMT
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R H Draney
<Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> =====
>
>If anyone has had any humourous experiences with double negatives, I'd
>really enjoy reading about them.
I don't normally respond to the occasional trolling message one finds all
over
Usenet, but sometimes I can't help myself...one reply I've found useful is
to
quote what appears to be the gist of the troll's argument (the more obscure
the better) and add:
"I couldn't help but fail to disagree with you less."
Usually shuts them up for at least a couple of days while they figure out
which side I'm on....r
--
What good is being an executive if you never get to execute anyone?
Aaron Davies
> One of the funniest uses of the literary double negative is Douglas Adams'
> description of a machine dispensing "a substance almost, but not quite,
> entirely unlike tea."
Speaking of the late lamented DNA, there's a beautiful quote from Marvin
(in a very good HHGTG fanfic) which contains approximately ten chained
negatives, but I can't find it at the moment. I'll post it when I do.
In the mean time, care to comment on the phenomonen of non-negative
words which take negative meanings in both positive and negative
sentances? Example: "jack" in slang usage. "What do you have?" can be
answered with either "I've got jack." or "I don't have jack." with
identical meaning. Not uninteresting, isn't it?
--
__ __
/ ) / )
/--/ __. __ ________ / / __. , __o _ _
/ (_(_/|_/ (_(_) / / <_ /__/_(_/|_\/ <__</_/_)_
John W Hall
Visible/Invisible
(Thinks... 'in' appears to mean 'not')
Valuable/Invaluable.
Flammable/Inflammable.
Neeraj 'The Ridge' Nagarkatti
Aaron Davies wrote:
--
Like I said to the
magician, "How's tricks"?
keep cool
> "I couldn't help but fail to disagree with you less."
double negatives and English humour = British politicians although some if
not all of the humour is unintentional.
My village locals use a form of double negative saying "do you not want a
....." instead of "do you want a ..." This style of speech is more
localised than regional. I live North of Manchester where the next local
dialect is always just five miles down the road.
The above quote is a treasure.
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.262 / Virus Database: 132 - Release Date: 12/06/2001
Donna Richoux
> Fat chance / slim chance?
It always surprises me that there are people who don't understand the
origin of "fat chance." It is sarcastic. Heavily sarcastic. It is never
said straight. Anything can mean the opposite of its literal meaning if
said sarcastically.
>
> Aaron Davies wrote:
>
> > Christopher Kluth <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote:
> >
> > > One of the funniest uses of the literary double negative is Douglas Adams'
> > > description of a machine dispensing "a substance almost, but not quite,
> > > entirely unlike tea."
> >
> > Speaking of the late lamented DNA, there's a beautiful quote from Marvin
> > (in a very good HHGTG fanfic) which contains approximately ten chained
> > negatives, but I can't find it at the moment. I'll post it when I do.
> >
> > In the mean time, care to comment on the phenomonen of non-negative
> > words which take negative meanings in both positive and negative
> > sentances? Example: "jack" in slang usage. "What do you have?" can be
> > answered with either "I've got jack." or "I don't have jack." with
> > identical meaning. Not uninteresting, isn't it?
--
Best --- Donna Richoux
Donna Richoux
> And how about the sometimes-negative/sometimes-positive prefixes...
>
> Visible/Invisible
> (Thinks... 'in' appears to mean 'not')
Yes. There is more than one prefix "in-" but this one is the negative.
> Valuable/Invaluable.
In this one, in- also means "not," actually. A thing that is so
incredibly good that a value cannot be named for it. Same as "beyond
price."
> Flammable/Inflammable.
A famous example that has been discussed to death in a.u.e and whose
history is undoubtedly in our FAQ. In this case, the "in-" never meant
"not," it meant more like "en-" as in "enflame" -- something like "to
become."
Linz
> >
> > "I couldn't help but fail to disagree with you less."
>
> double negatives and English humour = British politicians although some if
> not all of the humour is unintentional.
> My village locals use a form of double negative saying "do you not want a
> ....." instead of "do you want a ..." This style of speech is more
> localised than regional. I live North of Manchester where the next local
> dialect is always just five miles down the road.
Crikey! Where d'you live? I also live in a village north of Manc where
the next local dialect (and indeed accent) is a short distance away.
And yes, the locals also use "do you not...?"
--
That was summer, then.
John Lawler
>Christopher Kluth writes:
>> One of the funniest uses of the literary double negative is Douglas Adams'
>> description of a machine dispensing "a substance almost, but not quite,
>> entirely unlike tea."
>In the mean time, care to comment on the phenomonen of non-negative
>words which take negative meanings in both positive and negative
>sentances? Example: "jack" in slang usage. "What do you have?" can be
>answered with either "I've got jack." or "I don't have jack." with
>identical meaning. Not uninteresting, isn't it?
These are called "squatitives" in a paper by Haj Ross and Paul Postal.
They include "squat" (He doesn't know squat about that), "jack", "zip",
"nada", and others, many of which are taboo terms. The German equivalent
is, surprisingly to me at least, "Bahnhof" ("Er weisst Bahnhof" = He knows
jack).
-John Lawler http://www.umich.edu/~jlawler U of Michigan Linguistics Dept
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Language is the most massive and inclusive art we know, a - Edward Sapir
mountainous and anonymous work of unconscious generations." Language (1921)
Mike Barnes
>My village locals use a form of double negative saying "do you not want a
>....." instead of "do you want a ..."
If you replied simply "Yes", would they think you wanted one?
--
Mike Barnes
keep cool
Steve MacGregor
> If anyone has had any humourous experiences with double negatives, I'd
> really enjoy reading about them.
I'm waiting for the chance to use this one:
Some redneck gets angry at me and shouts, "You ain't shit!"
I reply, "And I suppose you thing you =are=?"
If he replies in the afirmative...
--
-- __Q Stefano MAC:GREGOR Mi dankas al miaj bonsxancigaj
-- -`\<, (s-ro) \ma-GREG-ar\ steloj, ke mi ne estas
-- (*)/ (*) Fenikso, Arizono, Usono supersticxulo.
------------ <http://www.geocities.com/esperantujo> ---
Spehro Pefhany
> Some redneck gets angry at me and shouts, "You ain't shit!"
> I reply, "And I suppose you thing you =are=?"
> If he replies in the afirmative...
If you survive and can communicate, be sure to post about the experience,
even if you have to type by blowing into a straw.
Best regards,
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
sp...@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
Contributions invited->The AVR-gcc FAQ is at: http://www.BlueCollarLinux.com
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Peter Morris
"Aaron Davies" <aa...@avalon.pascal-central.com> wrote in message
news:1evmjpp.1n4vnyiam00vdN%aa...@avalon.pascal-central.com...
> Christopher Kluth <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote:
>
> > One of the funniest uses of the literary double negative is Douglas
Adams'
> > description of a machine dispensing "a substance almost, but not quite,
> > entirely unlike tea."
>
> Speaking of the late lamented DNA, there's a beautiful quote from Marvin
> (in a very good HHGTG fanfic) which contains approximately ten chained
> negatives, but I can't find it at the moment. I'll post it when I do.
I think I know the one you mean. Its from DNA himself, not
a fanfic, the third novel, I think Quoting from memory it goes
approximately :
She is one of the least benightedly unintelligent beings it has ever
been my profound lack of displeasure not to be able to avoid
meeting.
--
______________________________
/____________________________(_)
| ___________________________ email to
| | |________________________(_) Peter_Morris_1
| |/__________________________ at Hotmail dot com
|____________________________(_)
Raymond S. Wise
[snip]
> > Flammable/Inflammable.
>
> A famous example that has been discussed to death in a.u.e and whose
> history is undoubtedly in our FAQ. In this case, the "in-" never meant
> "not," it meant more like "en-" as in "enflame" -- something like "to
> become."
A curious prefix, this _in-._ It appears to have started out _en,_
then became _in_ then became _en,_ then became _in_ again. See the
entry for the Indo-European root _en_ at
http://www.bartleby.com/61/roots/IE127.html
It also took the forms _im-_ and _em-_: See the etymology for the word
_embark,_ for example, at
http://www.bartleby.com/61/10/E0101000.html
_Enflame_ is pretty rare nowadays. I suspect that _enflame_ got to be
spelled _inflame_ by etymological respellers, when they realized that
it came from a Latin word that began with _in-._ There's a good
discussion of _inflammable_/_flammable_ at the Word Detective's site
at http://www.word-detective.com/ (go to the archives index and click
on the word _flammable_). He points out that _flammable_ did not
really catch on after it was first coined. It did, however, succeed
well enough to become an entry in Noah Webster's 1828 dictionary:
[quote]
FLAM'MABLE, a. Capable of being enkindled into flame.
[end quote]
But by 1913 it was definitely out of favor:
From
http://machaut.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/WEBSTER.sh?WORD=flammable
[quote]
ARTFL Project: Webster Dictionary, 1913
[...]
Flam"ma*ble (?), a. Inflammable. [Obs.]
[end quote]
--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
Aaron Davies
> Christopher Kluth <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote in message
> news:<2001062619180...@nym.alias.net>...
>
> > If anyone has had any humourous experiences with double negatives, I'd
> > really enjoy reading about them.
>
> I'm waiting for the chance to use this one:
>
> Some redneck gets angry at me and shouts, "You ain't shit!"
>
> I reply, "And I suppose you thing you =are=?"
>
> If he replies in the afirmative...
Well, given the slang of today, he could simply reply, "No, I'm *the*
shit!"
Aaron Davies
> "Aaron Davies" <aa...@avalon.pascal-central.com> wrote in message
> news:1evmjpp.1n4vnyiam00vdN%aa...@avalon.pascal-central.com...
> > Christopher Kluth <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote:
> >
> > > One of the funniest uses of the literary double negative is Douglas
> Adams'
> > > description of a machine dispensing "a substance almost, but not quite,
> > > entirely unlike tea."
> >
> > Speaking of the late lamented DNA, there's a beautiful quote from Marvin
> > (in a very good HHGTG fanfic) which contains approximately ten chained
> > negatives, but I can't find it at the moment. I'll post it when I do.
>
>
> I think I know the one you mean. Its from DNA himself, not
> a fanfic, the third novel, I think Quoting from memory it goes
> approximately :
>
> She is one of the least benightedly unintelligent beings it has ever
> been my profound lack of displeasure not to be able to avoid
> meeting.
Sounds right, I may have been misremembering. Or, possibly the fanfic
author lifted the line.
P. Schultz
>
> >
> > "I couldn't help but fail to disagree with you less."
>
> double negatives and English humour = British politicians although some if
> not all of the humour is unintentional.
> My village locals use a form of double negative saying "do you not want a
> ....." instead of "do you want a ..." This style of speech is more
> localised than regional. I live North of Manchester where the next local
When my mother (from northern Indiana USA, early 20th century) said,
"Ask John if he doesn't want a sandwich," she meant that you should ask
John if he wants a sandwich.
\\P. Schultz
Aaron J Dinkin
> When my mother (from northern Indiana USA, early 20th century) said,
> "Ask John if he doesn't want a sandwich," she meant that you should ask
> John if he wants a sandwich.
Did it also mean that she expected he very likely would?
-Aaron J. Dinkin
Dr. Whom
Charles Riggs
wrote:
>P. Schultz <schu...@erols.com> wrote:
>
>> When my mother (from northern Indiana USA, early 20th century) said,
>> "Ask John if he doesn't want a sandwich," she meant that you should ask
>> John if he wants a sandwich.
Isn't it more likely that she meant for you to ask him, "Wouldn't you
like a sandwich?"
>Did it also mean that she expected he very likely would?
It would to me.
Charles Riggs
Sebastian Tredinnick
have you heard this German phrase used as referring to general lack of
knowledge, or only in the case of not knowing much about a foreign language?
I always took the phrase as being similar to the English "It's all Greek to
me" (or "him" in this case).
As you probably know, "Bahnhof", means "train station" and the phrase is
supposed to imply that "train station" is the only word known to the subject
in the foreign language in question.
Cheers,
Seb.
Rainer Thonnes
"Sebastian Tredinnick" <Seb...@btinternet.com> writes:
>> These are called "squatitives" in a paper by Haj Ross and Paul Postal.
>> They include "squat" (He doesn't know squat about that), "jack", "zip",
>> "nada", and others, many of which are taboo terms. The German equivalent
>> is, surprisingly to me at least, "Bahnhof" ("Er weisst Bahnhof" = He knows
>> jack).
Correction: "Er weisst" is ungrammatical, it should be "er weiss", but
that's a minor point. The major one is that "Er weiss Bahnhof" simply is
not idiomatic at all, in my experience.
>have you heard this German phrase used as referring to general lack of
>knowledge, or only in the case of not knowing much about a foreign language?
>I always took the phrase as being similar to the English "It's all Greek to
>me" (or "him" in this case).
>As you probably know, "Bahnhof", means "train station" and the phrase is
>supposed to imply that "train station" is the only word known to the subject
>in the foreign language in question.
That's a plausible-sounding derivation, and in fact the idiomatic phrase
actually used is "Bahnhof verstehen", as in "er hat Bahnhof verstanden"
("he has understood 'station'"). It is not used to describe lack of
knowlegde, but lack of understanding, failure to recognise a word for
what it really means. However attractive the idea might be that it comes
from foreigners misparsing spoken words and thus performing a false
recognition, the phrase in actually used mostly in the context of
misunderstandings by non-foreigners, due to being hard of hearing.
Many people who are hard of hearing try to deny that they are, and will
consciously or subconsciously substitute a word that sounds vaguely
similar to that actually spoken. Often, even, the listener will be
guided by context, anticipate what the speaker will say next, and will
have a limited menu of candidate words to try to match against what he
thinks he hears. The best match, even if it doesn't seem to make sense,
will be taken to represent what the speaker is presumed to have said.
I think "Bahnhof" was originally just a random choice of nonsense word.
The idea is that the poor impaired listener has "heard" something which
bears no relation at all to what was said.
Besides, would not a tourist, with a limited vocabulary of one word, be
more likely to understand "toilet" than "station"? Toilets, when you
really need them, are much more important a facility to be able to ask
directions to in a foreign country than stations.
Peter.P
> Peter Morris wrote:
>
> >She is one of the least benightedly unintelligent beings it has ever
> >been my profound lack of displeasure not to be able to avoid
> >meeting.
>
to her mistress about some tradesman who had not called with his ware.
"Ma'am, he's been and gone and never come" which passed into the language
and my West Country mother used to use the expression in all sorts of
situations. Does it qualify?
Peter P
Eric Walker
[...]
>Many people who are hard of hearing try to deny that they are, and
>will consciously or subconsciously substitute a word that sounds
>vaguely similar to that actually spoken. . . .
Traveller: Is there a train to Wembley today?
First Old Lounger: No, it's Thursday.
Second Old Lounger: Me, too--let's get a drink.
(Sorry, couldn't resist.)
--
Cordially,
Eric Walker, webmaster
Great Science-Fiction & Fantasy Works
http://owlcroft.com/sfandf
Joe Fineman
> These are called "squatitives" in a paper by Haj Ross and Paul
> Postal. They include "squat" (He doesn't know squat about that),
> "jack", "zip", "nada", and others, many of which are taboo terms.
A curious variant on the construction -- used with _positive_ verbs --
is the British series "damn all", "fuck all", "bugger all" (are there
any more?). It is said to have trapped an eminent angry foreigner
into shouting "You think I know fuck nothing, but I know fuck all!".
--
--- Joe Fineman j...@TheWorld.com
||: A celebrity is someone whom excessive attention has rendered :||
||: unworthy of attention. :||
P. Schultz
I believe so, yes.
\\P. Schultz
Mike Barnes
>A curious variant on the construction -- used with _positive_ verbs --
>is the British series "damn all", "fuck all", "bugger all" (are there
>any more?).
sod all
naff all
--
Mike Barnes
frank
"Christopher Kluth" <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote in message
news:2001062619180...@nym.alias.net...
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> If anyone has had any humourous experiences with double negatives, I'd
> really enjoy reading about them.
>
> Regards,
>
> Christopher
"All music is folk music. I ain't never heard no horse sing no song." -
Louis Armstrong.
Actually, I made an unauthorized insertion. The second sentence should not
have the last "no." He said: "I ain't never heard no horse sing a song." - f
Roberta Davies
> If anyone has had any humourous experiences with double negatives, I'd
> really enjoy reading about them.
I recall George Orwell's example: "A not unblack dog chased a not
unwhite rabbit across a not ungreen field." This was intended to be
drummed into writers to break them of the habit of pompous double
negatives.
For years now I've been plagued by a memory of only one line from a
song:
"No, not never, no, not never no more"
Can anyone place this in a wider context? Or have I hallucinated the
whole thing?
Robbie
Harvey V
<roberta...@virgin.net> said:
[...]
>
> For years now I've been plagued by a memory of only one line from a
> song:
> "No, not never, no, not never no more"
> Can anyone place this in a wider context? Or have I hallucinated
> the whole thing?
>
> Robbie
>
>
The chorus to the "Irish Rover", is it not?
And it's no way, never;
(clap, clap, clap, clap)
No way never no more.
And I'll play the wild rover,
No never, no more.
The above is entirely from a wine-fueled memory; I'm happy to be
corrected on the words.
Cheers,
Harvey
isabelle haas
Harvey V a écrit dans le message ...
<cough cough>
The Wild Rover
And it's no, nay, never,
(clap, clap, clap, clap)
No nay never no more
Will I play the wild rover
No never, no more.
I've been a wild rover for many a year
And I('ve?) spent all my money on whiskey and beer,
And now I'm returning with gold in great store
And I never will play the wild rover no more.
And it's no, nay, never,...
I went into an ale-house I used to frequent
And I told the landlady my money was spent.
I asked her for credit, she answered me "Nay,
Such custom as yours I can get any day."
And it's no, nay, never,...
I took from my pocket ten sovereigns bright
And the landlady's eyes opened wide with delight.
She said "I have whiskey and wines of the best
And the words that I told you were only in jest."
And it's no, nay, never,...
I'll go home to my parents, confess what I've done
And I'll ask them to pardon their prodigal son.
And if they caress me as oft times before
Sure I never will play the wild rover no more.
And it's no, nay, never,...
One more time!
And it's No! Nay! Neverrr!
(CLAP, CLAP, CLAP, CLAP)
No nay never no mooooooooore
Will I plaaaaaayyyyyyyy
The wild roverrrrrrrrr
No, Neverrrrrrr,
Noooooo
Mooooooooooooooooore.
Er... Cheers,
Isabelle
Rich Lafferty
isabelle haas <isabel...@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
>
> <cough cough>
>
> The Wild Rover
>
> And it's no, nay, never,
> (clap, clap, clap, clap)
Was that Bowdler clapping, or do they really clap where you are? Here,
you'll hear "Right up yer kilt" (which I've never quite understood,
but perhaps Canadians are unclear on which country is which over
there), "Go fuck the Queen", and "Go fuck the Pope" -- of course,
the choice of the correct one of the last two is usually best left to
the muscular gents sitting around you.
-Rich
--
Rich Lafferty --------------+-----------------------------------------------
Montreal, Quebec, Canada | "Do not expose your LaserWriter to open
http://www.lafferty.ca/ | fire or flame" -- Apple LaserWriter manual
rich+...@lafferty.ca ----+-----------------------------------------------
Neno
It is right. It's from "Life, the Universe, and Everything":
"Maybe," said Marvin with unexpected authority in his lugubrious
voice, "it would be better if you monitored them from here. That
young girl," he added unexpectedly, "is one of the least benightedly
unintelligent life forms it has been my profound lack of pleasure not
to be able to avoid meeting."
Neno
neno.site.sh
Harvey V
(Rich Lafferty) said:
> In alt.usage.english,
> isabelle haas <isabel...@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
>>
>> <cough cough>
>>
>> The Wild Rover
>>
>> And it's no, nay, never, (clap, clap, clap, clap)
>
> Was that Bowdler clapping, or do they really clap where you are?
They clapped when I first learned the song -- I was probably about 8
years old, which is why whoever sang it to me didn't use whatever was
originally in the song......
The length of time since I last heard it is also my excuse for
forgetting the name, but the "no way never" was undoubtedly a youthful
mondegreen......
Cheers,
Harvey
Brian J Goggin
<whhvs@*removethis*operamail.com> wrote:
>They clapped when I first learned the song -- I was probably about 8
>years old, which is why whoever sang it to me didn't use whatever was
>originally in the song......
The clappage is quite standard in these parts. Shouted lines,
unsuitable for children, are often used by rude persons such as rugby
players.
bjg
Katie Wilson
>The chorus to the "Irish Rover", is it not?
>
> And it's no way, never;
> (clap, clap, clap, clap)
> No way never no more.
> And I'll play the wild rover,
> No never, no more.
>
>The above is entirely from a wine-fueled memory; I'm happy to be
>corrected on the words.
As I remember it, it's called 'The Wild Rover' and the chorus goes
something like:
And it's no, nay, no never,
No never, no never no more
Will I play the wild rover
No never, no more
I couldn't find it in my song book though - 'Songs for the Woodcraft
Folk'. I'm not too sure about the second line, either.
Though folk songs follow the same evolutionary process as the English
language, of course, and the words might change slightly depending on
the singer. ('This Land Is Your Land', and 'Red River Valley', for
instance, both of which I found to be slightly different in England and
America.)
Katie
Padraig Breathnach
Are rugby players mechanicals?
PB
Padraig Breathnach
>As I remember it, it's called 'The Wild Rover' and the chorus goes
>something like:
>
> And it's no, nay, no never,
> No never, no never no more
> Will I play the wild rover
> No never, no more
>
>I couldn't find it in my song book though - 'Songs for the Woodcraft
>Folk'. I'm not too sure about the second line, either.
>
We Hibernians, who know best about these things, sing:
And it's no, nay, never,
No never no more
Will I play the wild rover
No, never no more.
>Though folk songs follow the same evolutionary process as the English
>language, of course, and the words might change slightly depending on
>the singer. ('This Land Is Your Land', and 'Red River Valley', for
>instance, both of which I found to be slightly different in England and
>America.)
>
I doubt if either "This Land Is Your Land" or "Red River Valley" can
be appropriately grouped with older folk songs whose specific origins
are now obscure or unknown. I think that for each of these songs there
exists what might be regarded as the canonical version.
PB
>Katie
Donna Richoux
> Katie Wilson <katherin...@durham.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> >Though folk songs follow the same evolutionary process as the English
> >language, of course, and the words might change slightly depending on
> >the singer. ('This Land Is Your Land', and 'Red River Valley', for
> >instance, both of which I found to be slightly different in England and
> >America.)
> >
> I doubt if either "This Land Is Your Land" or "Red River Valley" can
> be appropriately grouped with older folk songs whose specific origins
> are now obscure or unknown. I think that for each of these songs there
> exists what might be regarded as the canonical version.
It was 1940 when Woody Guthrie wrote "This Land Is Your Land," according
to several web sites. The history of "Red River Valley" is less certain.
The folksong database Digital Traditions gives the best-known version as
written by James Kerrigen in 1896. See
http://www.mudcat.org/threads.cfm
But this site says:
http://www.redrivervalley.com/history1.htm
...research by Canadian folklorist Edith Fowke, shows
the song originated among British troops who came to
Manitoba, the Red River Valley of the North. The
time was the late 1860's...
So I'm agreeing with both of you, there are canonical versions, yet
there's been plenty of time for the folk process to introduce
variations.
--
Best --- Donna Richoux
Brian J Goggin
wrote:
>Are rugby players mechanicals?
Many of them show an unnatural interest in bottoms, although I must
admit few are starvelings.
bjg
PS The Corcadorca outdoor production in Cork is wonderful: well worth
the drive (at least from here).
Brian J Goggin
wrote:
>We Hibernians, who know best about these things, sing:
> And it's no, nay, never,
> No never no more
> Will I play the wild rover
> No, never no more.
I forgot, earlier, to distinguish between the Wild Rover and the Irish
Rover.
There used to be a German Rover, but he passed on when he got over 75.
bjg
Ben Zimmer
>
> Padraig Breathnach <padr...@iol.ie> wrote:
>
> > Katie Wilson <katherin...@durham.ac.uk> wrote:
> >
> > >Though folk songs follow the same evolutionary process as the English
> > >language, of course, and the words might change slightly depending on
> > >the singer. ('This Land Is Your Land', and 'Red River Valley', for
> > >instance, both of which I found to be slightly different in England and
> > >America.)
> > >
> > I doubt if either "This Land Is Your Land" or "Red River Valley" can
> > be appropriately grouped with older folk songs whose specific origins
> > are now obscure or unknown. I think that for each of these songs there
> > exists what might be regarded as the canonical version.
>
> It was 1940 when Woody Guthrie wrote "This Land Is Your Land," according
> to several web sites.
Interestingly, what is now the "canonical" version of the song (sung in
U.S. elementary schools, etc.) omits two verses of the original that
betray Woody's leftie politics:
As I went walking, I saw a sign there,
And on the sign it said "No Trespassing."
But on the other side it didn’t say nothing,
That side was made for you and me.
In the shadow of the steeple I saw my people,
By the relief office I seen my people;
As they stood there hungry, I stood there asking
Is this land made for you and me?
Somehow those verses got "lost" early on in the Cold War era!
--Ben
Sara Moffat Lorimer
> Interestingly, what is now the "canonical" version of the song (sung in
> U.S. elementary schools, etc.) omits two verses of the original that
> betray Woody's leftie politics:
>
[snip]
Close, but no cigar. Those verses originally went:
Was a big high wall there that tried to stop me
A sign was painted said: Private Property
But on the back side it didn't say nothing --
God blessed America for me.
One bright sunny morning in the shadow of the steeple
By the relief office I saw my people --
As they stood hungry, I stood there wondering if
God blessed America for me
The "God blessed America for me" is crossed out, and it looks like he
decided right away to change it to "This Land Was Made For You and Me"
-- and at the same time Woody (not The Man) got rid of the relief office
verse.
You can see it at <http://www.woodyguthrie.org/images/OrigThisLand.jpg>,
which I think is just great.
Ben Zimmer
Very cool! By "original" I just meant the published version, as it
appeared in "Woody Guthrie Songs" (New York, 1972). In that version the
sign says "No Trespassing", and the relief office verse is still in
(cited in http://www.loyno.edu/~history/journal/1996-7/Spivey.html).
And I'm sure I've heard Pete Seeger and other sympathetic folkies sing
it that way. So now I'm wondering, did Woody revise it or did someone
else?
--Ben
Geoff Butler
>
>I took from my pocket ten sovereigns bright
>And the landlady's eyes opened wide with delight.
>She said "I have whiskey and wines of the best
>And the words that I told you were only in jest."
>
>And it's no, nay, never,...
>
>I'll go home to my parents, confess what I've done
>And I'll ask them to pardon their prodigal son.
>And if they caress me as oft times before
>Sure I never will play the wild rover no more.
There's another verse between those two, where he tells the landlady
what he thinks of her. The words escape me, but the last line is
something like
Begone now landlady, I'll have none of yours.
-ler
Jacqui
> I forgot, earlier, to distinguish between the Wild Rover and the Irish
> Rover.
>
> There used to be a German Rover, but he passed on when he got over 75.
The Oxford Rover was mostly turned into a hotel and a business park...
Jac
Nero
The Bristol Rovers lived up to their name by going from Eastville to Twerton and
then to the Memorial Ground.
Neil
Brian J Goggin
>In article <3B41867B...@hotmail.com>, Jacqui says...
>>Brian J Goggin wrote:
>>> I forgot, earlier, to distinguish between the Wild Rover and the Irish
>>> Rover.
>>> There used to be a German Rover, but he passed on when he got over 75.
>>The Oxford Rover was mostly turned into a hotel and a business park...
>The Bristol Rovers lived up to their name by going from Eastville to Twerton and
>then to the Memorial Ground.
Some Rovers return, though, or so I've heard.
bjg
Nero
did those Scottish ones of Albion, reputedly named after a model of lorry.
Neil
Odysseus
>
> Katie Wilson <katherin...@durham.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> >As I remember it, it's called 'The Wild Rover' and the chorus goes
> >something like:
> >
> > And it's no, nay, no never,
> > No never, no never no more
> > Will I play the wild rover
> > No never, no more
> >
> >I couldn't find it in my song book though - 'Songs for the Woodcraft
> >Folk'. I'm not too sure about the second line, either.
> >
> We Hibernians, who know best about these things, sing:
> And it's no, nay, never,
> No never no more
> Will I play the wild rover
> No, never no more.
>
"And it's no, nay, never,
[Shouted] Right up yer kilt!
No, nay, never, no more
Will I play the wild rover,
No, never, no more."
--Odysseus
Brian J Goggin
wrote:
>I first heard this in Scotland, where it is often sung,
[...]
Well, there you go. It just goes to show. Since Scotland was removed
from the Irish empire, its culture has gone to blazes.
bjg
Jerry Friedman
...
> Interestingly, what is now the "canonical" version of the song (sung in
> U.S. elementary schools, etc.) omits two verses of the original that
> betray Woody's leftie politics:
>
> As I went walking, I saw a sign there,
> And on the sign it said "No Trespassing."
> But on the other side it didn't say nothing,
> That side was made for you and me.
>
> In the shadow of the steeple I saw my people,
"In the squares of the city, in the shadow of the steeple" according
to the Mudcat, which I believe implicitly except for the mistakes.
They also give the verses in the other order, first stating the
problem, then the solution (in Guthrie's view). See
<http://shorty.mudcat.org/!!-song99.cfm?stuff=fall99+D+12123931>.
> By the relief office I seen my people;
> As they stood there hungry, I stood there asking
> Is this land made for you and me?
>
> Somehow those verses got "lost" early on in the Cold War era!
Yep, I once took a poll in a high-school class here in New
Mexico--everybody but one Native American girl (I guess the irony
would have been too pointed) had sung the song in school, nobody knew
those verses.
Roberta Davies
"no, never no more" song line. I'm relieved to know that it does come
from a real song! That one line has been floating around in my head for
years without any attached references.
Robbie
Alfred Epple
One of my favourite double negatives is: Yes, we don't have no bananas.
A classic by now: I can't get no satisfaction (Rolling Stones)
___
_/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/ _/_/_/ ALFRED EPPLE
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ AF.E...@t-online.de
_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/ _/_/_/ URL: www.alfred-epple.de
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ PGP Public Key available
_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ Fax: 07581 527683
Aaron Davies
> Roberta Davies <roberta...@virgin.net> schrieb:
> > Christopher Kluth wrote:
> >
> > > If anyone has had any humourous experiences with double negatives, I'd
> > > really enjoy reading about them.
> >
> > I recall George Orwell's example: "A not unblack dog chased a not
> > unwhite rabbit across a not ungreen field." This was intended to be
> > drummed into writers to break them of the habit of pompous double
> > negatives.
> >
> > For years now I've been plagued by a memory of only one line from a
> > song:
> > "No, not never, no, not never no more"
> > Can anyone place this in a wider context? Or have I hallucinated the
> > whole thing?
> >
> > Robbie
> >
> >
>
> One of my favourite double negatives is: Yes, we don't have no bananas.
If you mean the song lyric, IIRC there's no "don't" in it.
--
__ __
/ ) / )
/--/ __. __ ________ / / __. , __o _ _
/ (_(_/|_/ (_(_) / / <_ /__/_(_/|_\/ <__</_/_)_
Earle D Jones
af.e...@t-online.de (Alfred Epple) wrote:
> Roberta Davies <roberta...@virgin.net> schrieb:
> > Christopher Kluth wrote:
> >
> > > If anyone has had any humourous experiences with double negatives, I'd
> > > really enjoy reading about them.
> >
> > I recall George Orwell's example: "A not unblack dog chased a not
> > unwhite rabbit across a not ungreen field." This was intended to be
> > drummed into writers to break them of the habit of pompous double
> > negatives.
> >
> > For years now I've been plagued by a memory of only one line from a
> > song:
> > "No, not never, no, not never no more"
> > Can anyone place this in a wider context? Or have I hallucinated the
> > whole thing?
> >
> > Robbie
> >
> >
>
> One of my favourite double negatives is: Yes, we don't have no bananas.
*
The song title was, "Yes, we have no bananas".
Do you remember the song, "I like bananas, because they have no bones"?
How many other songs mention bananas in the title?
Answer coming soon.
earle
*
Arian Hokin
> The song title was, "Yes, we have no bananas".
Yes, we have no Chihuahuas
We have no Chihuahuas today
We've Alsatians, Dalmatians,
The fruits of a flirtation
'Tween a half-blind Pekinese and a toupee,
But yes, we have no Chihuahuas
We have no Chihuahuas today-ay-ay
(Eric Bogle, "Little Gomez")
Arian
M. Ranjit Mathews
> > Valuable/Invaluable.
>
> In this one, in- also means "not," actually. A thing that is so
> incredibly good that a value cannot be named for it.
That is, invaluable = that which cannot be valued or that whose value
cannot be appraised.
> Same as "beyond price."
"Priceless" can mean "beyond price" in more than one way as in:
(1) priceless gem
(2) priceless ass
R H Draney
news:1ewdtus.jxwdzt8cipaN%aa...@avalon.pascal-central.com...
> Alfred Epple <af.e...@t-online.de> wrote:
>
> > One of my favourite double negatives is: Yes, we don't have no bananas.
>
> If you mean the song lyric, IIRC there's no "don't" in it.
Surely you meant to say there *isn't* no "don't" in it?...r
Tony Cooper
> > For years now I've been plagued by a memory of only one line from
a
> > song:
> > "No, not never, no, not never no more"
> > Can anyone place this in a wider context? Or have I hallucinated
the
> > whole thing?
Could you be thinking of the Irish tune "Wild Rover"? It's a commonly
played tune in Irish themed pubs and bars since the crowd ends up
chanting "No, nay, never no more".
The Clancy Brothers recorded it years ago.
WILD ROVER
I've been a wild rover for many a year
And I spent all my money on whiskey and beer,
And now I'm returning with gold in great store
And I never will play the wild rover no more.
chorus
And it's no, nay, never,
No nay never no more,
Will I play the wild rover
No never no more.
I went to an ale-house I used to frequent
And I told the landlady my money was spent.
I asked her for credit, she answered me "nay
Such a custom as yours I could have any day."
chorus:
I took from my pocket ten sovereigns bright
And the landlady's eyes opened wide with delight.
She said "I have whiskey and wines of the best
And the words that I spoke sure were only in jest."
chorus:
I'll go home to my parents, confess what I've done
And I'll ask them to pardon their prodigal son.
And if they caress (forgive) me as ofttimes before
Sure I never will play the wild rover no more.
--
Tony Cooper aka: Tony_Co...@Yahoo.com
Provider of Jots & Tittles
Arian Hokin
> Tony Cooper aka: Tony_Co...@Yahoo.com
> Provider of Jots & Tittles
Are you that same Tony Cooper who politely offered (in rec.music.folk
three years ago) to let me hate him as a stereotypical American, and thus
salve my Australian conscience for unpatriotically liking all the other
Americans I knew? Well, well, it's a small 'Net. :-)
Arian
Tony Cooper
> Are you that same Tony Cooper who politely offered (in
rec.music.folk
> three years ago) to let me hate him as a stereotypical American, and
thus
> salve my Australian conscience for unpatriotically liking all the
other
> Americans I knew? Well, well, it's a small 'Net. :-)
>
Basically the same one. There have been some rearrangements of
physical appearance involving shifting body bulges and ear hair
growth. Nothing you'd notice in UseNet.
I've been hanging out in soc.culture.irish since that exchange with
you. I've decided to go a bit up-market and visit this group for a
while. This being the marching season in Ireland, the postings are
too full of "you started it" to be interesting.
>my Australian conscience
It's nice to see hyperbole is not unknown in Oz.
--
Aaron Davies
How 'bout "Don't you know there ain't no 'don't' in it, innit?"?