Hortense
Bob Cunningham
I've tested all of the links in the Resources (Categorized
Links) file at my Web site. There were eleven bad links,
and they have now been repaired.
You can see a list of the repairs in my "What's New" file at
http://www.exw6sxq.com/sparky/aue_related/whats_new.html
under "2004 January 22".
About the subject line: I greatly dislike it when I write a
meaningful subject line and then see it used for weeks above
discussions that have nothing to do with it. My answer to
the problem is to use nonsense subject lines to begin with.
If we now have a thread of 400 postings under the subject
line "Hortense", chatting about everything from baked apples
to the weather in North Dakota, I could not care less.
Matti Lamprhey
> [...]
> About the subject line: I greatly dislike it when I write a
> meaningful subject line and then see it used for weeks above
> discussions that have nothing to do with it. My answer to
> the problem is to use nonsense subject lines to begin with.
My middle name is Hortense (don't ask), so I'm grossly miffed by your
attitude here, Bob CunningHam.
Matti
Louisa Hennessy
<matti-...@totally-official.com> writes:
>"Bob Cunningham" <exw...@earthlink.net> wrote...
>> [...]
>> About the subject line: I greatly dislike it when I write a
>> meaningful subject line and then see it used for weeks above
>> discussions that have nothing to do with it. My answer to
>> the problem is to use nonsense subject lines to begin with.
>
>My middle name is Hortense (don't ask), so I'm grossly miffed by your
>attitude here, Bob CunningHam.
I have been resisting for several minutes now, but can't stand it any longer. I
have to ask, why is your middle name Hortense??
--
Louisa
Essex, England, Europe
John O'Flaherty
It's a hormoanal problem. Pay her, she'll relax.
--
john
Matti Lamprhey
> "Matti Lamprhey" <matti-...@totally-official.com> writes:
> >"Bob Cunningham" <exw...@earthlink.net> wrote...
> >> [...]
> >> About the subject line: I greatly dislike it when I write a
> >> meaningful subject line and then see it used for weeks above
> >> discussions that have nothing to do with it. My answer to
> >> the problem is to use nonsense subject lines to begin with.
> >
> >My middle name is Hortense (don't ask), so I'm grossly miffed by your
> >attitude here, Bob CunningHam.
>
> I have been resisting for several minutes now, but can't stand it any
> longer. I have to ask, why is your middle name Hortense??
Which bit of "don't ask" didn't you understand, Louisa?
If you must know, the vicar offered a choice of that or Lavinia, so it
could have been worse. Something to do with balancing the statistics,
apparently.
Matti
Wood Avens
<matti-...@totally-official.com> wrote:
>If you must know, the vicar offered a choice of that or Lavinia, so it
>could have been worse.
Interesting (or perhaps not very) - to me, Lavinia would have been by
far the better choice.
--
Katy Jennison
spamtrap: remove number to reply
Louisa Hennessy
<woodav...@gmx.co.uk> writes:
>On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 16:14:36 -0000, "Matti Lamprhey"
><matti-...@totally-official.com> wrote:
>
>>If you must know, the vicar offered a choice of that or Lavinia, so it
>>could have been worse.
>
>Interesting (or perhaps not very) - to me, Lavinia would have been by
>far the better choice.
I think I prefer Hortense, it has a little whiff of French exoticism about it
:-)
mUs1Ka
Ah, but Lavinia has the scent of India perfuming its very essence.
m.
John DeFiore
"Bob Cunningham" <exw...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:m2mv00hcuncr9sgcd...@4ax.com...
>
> If we now have a thread of 400 postings under the subject
> line "Hortense", chatting about everything from baked apples
> to the weather in North Dakota, I could not care less.
It would be ironic if there were 400 on-topic postings on the subject of
"Hortense".
Regards,
John
Bob Cunningham
<quia...@yahoo.com> said:
> On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 14:19:56 GMT, Bob Cunningham
> <exw...@earthlink.net> wrote:
[ . . . ]
> >About the subject line: I greatly dislike it when I write a
> >meaningful subject line and then see it used for weeks above
> >discussions that have nothing to do with it. My answer to
> >the problem is to use nonsense subject lines to begin with.
> >If we now have a thread of 400 postings under the subject
> >line "Hortense", chatting about everything from baked apples
> >to the weather in North Dakota, I could not care less.
> It's a hormoanal problem.
But is it a genuwhine hormoanal problem?
> Pay her, she'll relax.
Congratulations, John. I tried to think of something to do
with "whore tense", but nothing came ... not even Hortense.
Bob Cunningham
We could try. It would be something to do.
Have there been any great Hortenses in history? I mean,
besides Matti?
Robert Lipton
Bob Cunningham wrote:
Well, there was my mother, but I may well be biased.
Bob
R H Draney
>
>About the subject line: I greatly dislike it when I write a
>meaningful subject line and then see it used for weeks above
>discussions that have nothing to do with it. My answer to
>the problem is to use nonsense subject lines to begin with.
>
>If we now have a thread of 400 postings under the subject
>line "Hortense", chatting about everything from baked apples
>to the weather in North Dakota, I could not care less.
ObAUE: don't you mean you *could* care less?...r
Donna Richoux
"Hortensia" is what the Dutch call the hydrangea, so I looked up why. It
turns out that Hortense de Beauharnais, daughter of the Empress
Josephine and the step-daughter of Napoleon Bonaparte, was Queen of
Holland, too. She also gave her name to one of the world's largest
diamonds.
398 to go.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
Maria Conlon
> About the subject line: I greatly dislike it when I write a
> meaningful subject line and then see it used for weeks above
> discussions that have nothing to do with it. My answer to
> the problem is to use nonsense subject lines to begin with.
>
> If we now have a thread of 400 postings under the subject
> line "Hortense", chatting about everything from baked apples
> to the weather in North Dakota, I could not care less.
I rather like the "Hortense" subject line. It reminds me of an old
Archie comic book, wherein a girl named Hortense -- a shy, unattractive
young lady -- was asked for a date to a dance by none other than
Jughead -- an unattractive guy who was ahead of his time, being already
dumbed down.
As a name, "Hortense" is dreadful, of course. A "Hortense" cannot escape
being called "whore" and is, whorish or not, often considered
"horse-like." I think "Hortense" in the Archie comic had a rather long,
horsey face.
On the whole, I'm glad to have the name I do. If I were a guy, I
wouldn't want to be named "Dick"[1] (sorry to the Richards here) or
"Les." I also would not want to be named "Adolph." I once worked for a
Jewish man, who was born some time in the early 1920s and whose first
name was "Adolph." He didn't use it in everyday life, but he didn't go
to the trouble or expense of legally changing it. Thus, there is was,
any time he had to affix his official, legal name to anything.
[1] When I was in high school (late 1950s), "Dick" used to be a
perfectly acceptable name, not subject to anatomy-type jokes, at least
not openly. If there *were* jokes being made, most of the girls were not
privy to them. Sometimes I long for those innocent days. (Note that I
didn't say "happy days." They weren't, not especially.)
--
Maria Conlon
Please send any email to the Hot Mail address.
Bob Cunningham
Serendipity and Hortense have led me to stumble upon a Web
site I've been wanting to find: one that tells where first
names have come from. The site is at
http://www.behindthename.com/ . There are 27 internal
links, most of which sound like they could be useful or fun.
For example, I find that "Robert" in Finnish is
PERTTI (m) ROOPE (m) ROOPERTTI (m)
And in the period 1920-1929 Robert was the most popular name
for boys, with John, James, and William not far behind;
Charles, George, and Joseph were only about half as popular.
Wylie was in last (994th) place.
Hortense was 567th in the list of girls' names. An anagram
of Hortense is Noethers.
It doesn't give any namesakes for Hortense, but for Robert
it has
Namesakes for Robert:
Shakespearian Characters: 3 characters
Kings of the Franks and France: 2 kings
Nobel Prize Winners: 6 physics, 6 chemistry, 4 medicine, 1
peace, 5 economics
Oscar Award Winners: 4 directors, 3 actors
Saints: 12 saints, 7 blessed
Kings and Queens of Scotland: 3 kings
Sports Stars: 1 baseball, 8 basketball
I guess it doesn't count Bobby under Robert, because I can
already think of sports stars Bobby Bonds and Bobby Jones
without even trying hard.
It has
HORTENSE f French
Pronounced: or-TAWNS
French feminine form of Hortensius (see HORTENSIA).
HORTENSIA f Ancient Roman, English, Spanish
Feminine form of the Roman family name Hortensius,
possibly derived from Latin hortus "garden".
And possibly not?
MATTI m Finnish
Finnish form of MATTHEW
MATTHEW m English, Biblical
Pronounced: MATH-yoo
English form of Matthaios, which was a Greek form
of the Hebrew name Mattithyahu which meant "gift
of YAHWEH". Saint Matthew, also called Levi, was
one of the twelve apostles (a tax collector). He
was supposedly the author of the first Gospel in
the New Testament.
It also has "© Mike Campbell 1996-2001. You may not reprint
or redisplay this material without my permission."
But I plead fair use, your honor. Besides, I'm illustrating
and advertising what a great site it is. Mike Campbell
should thank me.
Ben Zimmer
Hmm... OED says "hortensia" was named after "the wife of J.-A. Lepaute
(1720-c1787), French clockmaker". First used by P. Commerson in 1789.
Some discussion on fr.lettres.langue.francaise here:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3EFD5159...@noos.fr
Either way, it seems like an awfully convenient name for a flower, since
"Hortensia" comes from Latin _hortensi(u)s_ 'of or belonging to a
garden' (f. _hortus_ 'garden').
R H Draney
>
>On the whole, I'm glad to have the name I do. If I were a guy, I
>wouldn't want to be named "Dick"[1] (sorry to the Richards here) or
>"Les." I also would not want to be named "Adolph."
Consider "Ronald"...with Colman fast fading in cultural significance, there were
two possible role models for me growing up in California in the 1960s: a
hamburger clown and a B-movie actor turned politician...(and whichever one I
chose to emulate, I'd have to dye my hair orange)....
Your surname, Maria, has afforded a bit of public amusement to at least one
person...last week "Schickele Mix" repeated a program in which the
jazz/classical fusion of composer Conlon Nancarrow was featured...the host spent
some time wondering what the original name was that must have been anagrammed to
form that...he finally settled on a Christmas song written in honor of an old
piece of artillery, the "Worn Cannon Carol"....r
John Varela
wrote:
> I rather like the "Hortense" subject line. It reminds me of an old
> Archie comic book, wherein a girl named Hortense -- a shy, unattractive
> young lady -- was asked for a date to a dance by none other than
> Jughead -- an unattractive guy who was ahead of his time, being already
> dumbed down.
There was a Disney character named Hortense McDuck:
http://duckman.pettho.com/characters/hortense.html
Also, an ostrich named Hortense:
http://disneyshorts.toonzone.net/years/1937/donaldsostrich.html
--
John Varela
(Trade "OLD" lamps for "NEW" for email.)
I apologize for munging the address but the spam is too much.
Donna Richoux
The editor at De Tuingids (The Garden Guide) thought that the Napoleonic
Hortense was the source of the name:
http://www.detuingids.be/pages/detail.asp?Id=2720
Deze plant wel eens genoemd naar HORTENSE DE
BEAUHARNAIS, de bloedmooie dochter van Keizerin
Josephine van Frankrijk.
But maybe they were wrong -- it wouldn't be the first time somebody was
wrong on the Web...
One page says that Hortense was named *after* the flower:
Josephine had two children by Beauharnais, Eugene
and Hortense. The latter was also named after a
flower; the hortensia, known more familiarly as the
"mophead" hydrangea.
Hortense de Beauharnais was b.1783, d. 1837, if that helps. I can't find
when the hydrangea hortensia was brought to Europe.
And here's another which mentions someone else, a botanist -- that's
rather what I expected in the first place:
Hydrangeas: Pots Of Mopheads And Lacecaps
Hortensias {H. macrophylla}, also known as bigleaf
or garden hydrangeas, are very popular and widely
grown. Hortensias, also known as "mopheads," were
named in honor of Hortense, the daughter of 18th
century botanist Prince de Nassau.
Well, that's something more to look for. And, yes, it turns up more
hits:
1.De naam Hydrangea is voor het eerst gebruikt door
de botanist Grovonius in zijn 'Flora
Virginica'.*********2.De naam Hortensia is gegeven
ter ere van Hortense van Nassau ,de dochter van de
Prins van Nassau,die deel uitmaakte van de
plant-hunter-expeditie van Bougainville.
(The name Hydrangea was first used by the botanist Grovonious in his
"Flora Virginica." The name Hortensia was given in honor of Hortense van
nassu, the daughter of the Prince of Nassau, who took part in the
plant-hunter expedition of Bougainville.)
Another page says Hortense was the sister of the one who went on the
expedition:
De hortensia is vernoemd naar Hortense van Nassau,
zuster van de prins van Nassau-Siegen, die als
officier in Franse dienst in 1766 deel nam aan een
wereldreis van plantenverzamelaar Bougenville en de
Hydrangea hier introduceerde.
The date checks: Louis Antoine de Bougainville sailed around the world,
1766-69, collecting plants. The flower he collected in Brazil is of
course named for him, Bougainvillea. However, the page I checked does
*not* mention whether he collected the hydrangea.
However, another mentions that Philibert Commerson, the botanist you say
the OED credits with the name, was on that same voyage... Maybe he made
a little pun, naming the flower both in honor of gardens *and* the
sister of his expedition comrade, the prince.
Like your French post said, however, the beautiful Hortense rests
mysterious. It does seem terribly likely that the real origin of the
name was simply "the garden hydrangea, the hydrangea grown in gardens"
and all these women were named later, or independently.
I would expect the adjective "hortensia" to have been used in many other
species, the same way that, say, "chinensis" and "japonica" turn up in
many names... And indeed, with a little looking, I find:
Rudbeckia Laciniata Hortensia
Myosotidium Hortensia
And they have nothing to do with hydrangeas.
The earliest record I can find in Ancestry World Tree with the name
"Hortense" is a German countess born 1569. There may be some earlier,
there's no quick way to check. Now I wonder, was "Hortensia" used as a
woman's name in Roman times?...
Dr Robin Bignall
I would have thought that 'Lamprhey' was exotic enough not to require
further amplification.
--
wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall
Quiet part of Hertfordshire
England
Robert Bannister
> [1] When I was in high school (late 1950s), "Dick" used to be a
> perfectly acceptable name, not subject to anatomy-type jokes, at least
> not openly. If there *were* jokes being made, most of the girls were not
> privy to them. Sometimes I long for those innocent days. (Note that I
> didn't say "happy days." They weren't, not especially.)
>
I've still got two friends who are unselfconsciously called Dick. It
doesn't seem to present a problem. Willy, however, does seem to have
dropped out, but I think mainly because of fashion rather than the
possibility of double-meaning.
--
Rob Bannister
Bob Cunningham
Richoux) said:
[ . . . ]
> The earliest record I can find in Ancestry World Tree with the name
> "Hortense" is a German countess born 1569. There may be some earlier,
> there's no quick way to check. Now I wonder, was "Hortensia" used as a
> woman's name in Roman times?...
From www.behindthename.com :
HORTENSE f French
Pronounced: or-TAWNS
French feminine form of Hortensius (see HORTENSIA).
HORTENSIA f Ancient Roman, English, Spanish
Feminine form of the Roman family name Hortensius,
possibly derived from Latin hortus "garden".
By the way, I see now that www.behindthename.com has been
mentioned at least 37 times in AUE in recent years -- as far
back as August 2000.
And, lo and behold, I see also that I have added it to Mark
Israel's AUE FAQ at some time in more or less recent years.
( http://alt-usage-english.org/excerpts/fxetymol.html .)
Robert Lieblich
[ ... ]
> Congratulations, John. I tried to think of something to do
> with "whore tense", but nothing came ... not even Hortense.
Gimme a sentence with the name "Hortense" --
One way to make a whore tense is to threaten to call the vice squad.
Do non-rhotics pronounce it "Ho tense"?
Have I no shame?
--
Bob Lieblich
None
Donna Richoux
> On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 23:17:41 +0100, tr...@euronet.nl (Donna
> Richoux) said:
>
> Now I wonder, was "Hortensia" used as a
> > woman's name in Roman times?...
>
> From www.behindthename.com :
>
> HORTENSE f French
> Pronounced: or-TAWNS
> French feminine form of Hortensius (see HORTENSIA).
>
> HORTENSIA f Ancient Roman, English, Spanish
> Feminine form of the Roman family name Hortensius,
> possibly derived from Latin hortus "garden".
I see. That made me check the Perseus Project, which has:
Hortensia
The daughter of the orator Hortensius (q.v.), who
inherited her father's eloquence. When the members
of the Second Triumvirate had imposed a heavy tax
upon the Roman matrons and no one of the other sex
dared to espouse their cause, Hortensia appeared as
their advocate, and made so able a speech that a
large portion of the burden was removed (Val. Max.
viii. 3, 3). This harangue was extant in
Quintilian's time, who speaks of it with praise (
Quint.i. 1Quint., 6).
There's an even longer article on her father, which begins:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3atext%3a1999%2e0
4%2e0062&query=id%3dhortensius#id,hortensius
Hortensius
Quintus. (1) A celebrated orator, who began to
distinguish himself by his eloquence in the Roman
Forum at the age of nineteen. He was born of a
plebeian family, B.C. 114, eight years before
Cicero. He served at first as a common soldier, and
afterwards as military tribune, in the Social War.
In the contest between Marius and Sulla he remained
neutral, and was one of the twenty quaestors
established by Sulla. He afterwards obtained in
succession the offices of aedile, praetor, and consul.
It goes on and on about his career and distinctive oratorial style.
Then I wondered whether the "Hort-" in their names had anything to do
with "exhort" and "hortatory," but AHD says the "to urge" meaning and
the "garden" meaning are from two unrelated Indo-European roots.
Besides, I don't think these were nicknames they earned, but family
names.
Jim Ward
> By the way, I see now that www.behindthename.com has been
> mentioned at least 37 times in AUE in recent years -- as far
> back as August 2000.
I looked up Dena - Possibly means "dale" or "valley" in a Native American
language.
Bob Cunningham
Richoux) said:
[ . . . ]
> Then I wondered whether the "Hort-" in their names had anything to do
> with "exhort" and "hortatory," but AHD says the "to urge" meaning and
> the "garden" meaning are from two unrelated Indo-European roots.
> Besides, I don't think these were nicknames they earned, but family
> names.
But the "hort-" is the same as in "cohort". In November
1999 I posted to say
I've found it fascinating that the 'hort' in the word
'cohort' is related to the 'hort' in 'horticultural',
and derives from the use of a farmyard as the meeting
place for a group of soldiers. [...]
(_The Merriam-Webster New Book of Word Histories_ has
nearly a full page devoted to the etymology of
'cohort'. They say, among other things, that '-hort',
'yard', and 'garden' all go back 'through the mists
of time' to the same source.)
Charles Riggs
<Robert....@Verizon.net> wrote:
>Bob Cunningham wrote:
>
>[ ... ]
>
>> Congratulations, John. I tried to think of something to do
>> with "whore tense", but nothing came ... not even Hortense.
>
>Gimme a sentence with the name "Hortense" --
>
>One way to make a whore tense is to threaten to call the vice squad.
That'd even make a hormone.
--
Charles Riggs
Email address: chriggsŚatŚeircomŚdotŚnet
Charles Riggs
<mariaco...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>[1] When I was in high school (late 1950s), "Dick" used to be a
>perfectly acceptable name, not subject to anatomy-type jokes, at least
>not openly. If there *were* jokes being made, most of the girls were not
>privy to them.
That must have been the case. The OED has the word going back to 1891
with the meaning of penis; I suspect it is far older. Am I remembering
right that Shakespeare used it that way a time or two?
Back in the early 60s, we used to tease our classmate Richard Steele
by calling him Steel Dick. Actually, I think he rather liked the joke.
>Sometimes I long for those innocent days.
Yeah, bring back those good old nuclear attack drills.
PS -- Kerry will be the hands-down winner in New Hampshire next week.
My crystal ball, assisted by knowledge of the results from the most
recent US polls, also tells me a Democrat will be the next President.
Happy days are here again.
What an ass Bush made of himself, reaffirming his idiocy, during his
State of the Union address. Hard for me to decide whether to laugh or
cry as I watched his performance.
Charles Riggs
<matti-...@totally-official.com> wrote:
>"Bob Cunningham" <exw...@earthlink.net> wrote...
>> [...]
>> About the subject line: I greatly dislike it when I write a
>> meaningful subject line and then see it used for weeks above
>> discussions that have nothing to do with it. My answer to
>> the problem is to use nonsense subject lines to begin with.
>
>My middle name is Hortense (don't ask), so I'm grossly miffed by your
>attitude here, Bob CunningHam.
Can we be 100% certain Matti Hortense is a man? If something is always
referred to as a horse, isn't it safe to assume it is a horse?
Bob Cunningham
<dado...@earthlink.net> said:
> Bob Cunningham filted:
An intriguing thought about ontopicness:
Suppose RHD's posting were to be followed by a thread of
1000 postings, none of which had anything to do with
giraffes. They would all be on topic even though they ran
the gamut of content from "aardvark" to "zythum", so long as
no one changed the subject line and none of the postings
touched upon the subject of giraffes.
That is, to be on topic a posting would have only to satisfy
the condition of the subject line "Nothing whatever to do
with giraffes".
Alec McKenzie
> An intriguing thought about ontopicness:
>
> Suppose RHD's posting were to be followed by a thread of
> 1000 postings, none of which had anything to do with
> giraffes. They would all be on topic even though they ran
> the gamut of content from "aardvark" to "zythum", so long as
> no one changed the subject line and none of the postings
> touched upon the subject of giraffes.
>
> That is, to be on topic a posting would have only to satisfy
> the condition of the subject line "Nothing whatever to do
> with giraffes".
So your posting above is completely off-topic!
--
Alec McKenzie
mcke...@despammed.com
Matti Lamprhey
> "Matti Lamprhey" <matti-...@totally-official.com> wrote:
> >
> >My middle name is Hortense (don't ask), so I'm grossly miffed by your
> >attitude here, Bob CunningHam.
>
> Can we be 100% certain Matti Hortense is a man? If something is always
> referred to as a horse, isn't it safe to assume it is a horse?
I'll swap my urkingdom for a horse any day.
Matti
Bob Cunningham
:)
Laura F Spira
"Bob smiles!" (only those cinema buffs of a certain age will understand)
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Richard R. Hershberger
> Louisa Hennessy wrote:
> > In article <tbuv00d70he2bhsni...@4ax.com>, Wood Avens
> > <woodav...@gmx.co.uk> writes:
> >
> >> <matti-...@totally-official.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> If you must know, the vicar offered a choice of that or Lavinia, so
> >>> it could have been worse.
> >>
> >> Interesting (or perhaps not very) - to me, Lavinia would have been by
> >> far the better choice.
> >
> > I think I prefer Hortense, it has a little whiff of French exoticism
> > about it :-)
>
> Ah, but Lavinia has the scent of India perfuming its very essence.
Do we all get votes? If so, put me down for "Lavinia".
Maria Conlon
> Maria Conlon wrote:
>> Sometimes I long for those innocent days.
>
> Yeah, bring back those good old nuclear attack drills.
"Air raid drills."
>
> PS -- Kerry will be the hands-down winner in New Hampshire next week.
> My crystal ball, assisted by knowledge of the results from the most
> recent US polls, also tells me a Democrat will be the next President.
> Happy days are here again.
PS -- Sure, Kerry will probably win in New Hampshire, despite the
obvious moral superiority of Joe Lieberman. The rest of your crystal
ball's prediction is pure fantasy. You may as well ask questions of one
of those 8-ball things.
>
> What an ass Bush made of himself, reaffirming his idiocy, during his
> State of the Union address. Hard for me to decide whether to laugh or
cry as I watched his performance.
The one who made an ass of himself was Ted Kennedy, but it played well
in Kennedy-Kerry liberal-lefty Massachusetts, no doubt. As for Bush's
performance, I applauded. Didn't you like the "permission slip"
statement? And didn't you gag at the Democratic responses? Talk about
weak.
But enough U. S. politics. You need to be *here*, Charles, IMO, to get
the full flavor. So let us get back to poor Hortense. Where is
"Hortense" today, besides in the middle of Matti's full name? Will
"Jennifer," or "Ashley," or "Kaitlin" (of any spelling) or
"McKenzie-McKenna-McSurname," or "Cameron-Lindsey-Jordan"(of either sex)
have the same fate as "Hortense" in the not-too-distant future? (That
is: Will those names be lost except in occasional middle-name slots?
Will they be unpopular as anything but newsgroup topics?) Will "Mary,"
and "Elizabeth" and "Carol" and "Ruth" and "Charles" and "George" and
"Ronald" and "Hughie," and "Dewey," and "Louie" make comebacks?
These are important, on-topic questions, and people expecting to name
children within the immediate future need answers. To name one's
children names the same as one-half of their kindergarten class is not
good. To name one's children names that better suit the sex they are not
is not good.
Let us help future parents and future children. It's the least aue can
do.
--
Maria Conlon
John Dean
> Bob Cunningham <exw...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 23:17:41 +0100, tr...@euronet.nl (Donna
>> Richoux) said:
>>
>> Now I wonder, was "Hortensia" used as a
>>> woman's name in Roman times?...
>>
>> From www.behindthename.com :
>>
>>
>> Feminine form of the Roman family name Hortensius,
>> possibly derived from Latin hortus "garden".
>
> I see. That made me check the Perseus Project, which has:
>
> Hortensia
> The daughter of the orator Hortensius (q.v.), who
> inherited her father's eloquence.
>
>
> http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3atext%3a1999%2e0
> 4%2e0062&query=id%3dhortensius#id,hortensius
>
> Hortensius
> Quintus. (1) A celebrated orator, who began to
> distinguish himself by his eloquence in the Roman
> Forum at the age of nineteen. >
Lempriere identifies several men named Hortensius, including the man who
introduced the fashion for eating peacocks. 'Hortensia Lex', the Hortensian
Law, was enacted by the Dictator Q. Hortensius to oblige the nobility to
subject themselves to the laws passed by commoners.
--
John Dean
Oxford
De-frag to reply
Jerry Friedman
> Charles Riggs wrote:
...
> > What an ass Bush made of himself, reaffirming his idiocy, during his
> > State of the Union address. Hard for me to decide whether to laugh or
> > cry as I watched his performance.
>
> The one who made an ass of himself was Ted Kennedy, but it played well
> in Kennedy-Kerry liberal-lefty Massachusetts, no doubt. As for Bush's
> performance, I applauded. Didn't you like the "permission slip"
> statement?
I agreed with it, but as it has no relevance to recent history (I
didn't hear anyone say we should have asked permission to invade
Afghanistan), I interpreted it as a further nauseating attempt to
suggest, without the outright lie of saying so, that the invasion of
Iraq was self-defense.
By the way, in the other sound bite I heard, Mr. Bush mentioned the
"liberation of Iraq". Sorry, but a country being ruled by a foreign
country is not free. There seems to be a pretty good chance that
we'll stop ruling them even de facto, and some small chance that they
won't immediately return to dictatorship. If that happens, it will be
time to talk about liberation.
> And didn't you gag at the Democratic responses? Talk about
> weak.
...
Missed 'em. "Weak" would not surprise me. (For one thing, they have
to make some of it up themselves.) I take it nobody here heard my
governor's response in Spanish? I sure didn't.
--
Jerry Friedman
John Varela
> I've still got two friends who are unselfconsciously called Dick. It
> doesn't seem to present a problem.
My uncle named his two sons Peter and Dick. I seem to be the only one who
noticed.
Pat Durkin
"Jerry Friedman" <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:96efe132.04012...@posting.google.com...
> "Maria Conlon" <mariaco...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:<burbf3$l5ll3$1...@ID-113669.news.uni-berlin.de>...
> > statement?
>
> I agreed with it, but as it has no relevance to recent history (I
> didn't hear anyone say we should have asked permission to invade
> Afghanistan), I interpreted it as a further nauseating attempt to
> suggest, without the outright lie of saying so, that the invasion of
> Iraq was self-defense.
>
> By the way, in the other sound bite I heard, Mr. Bush mentioned the
> "liberation of Iraq". Sorry, but a country being ruled by a foreign
> country is not free. There seems to be a pretty good chance that
> we'll stop ruling them even de facto, and some small chance that they
> won't immediately return to dictatorship. If that happens, it will be
> time to talk about liberation.
This is not the first time the President has used "liberation" as our reason
for being there in Iraq. It is frightening to me that he will use these
calls on the emotions of the WWII generation.
Pat Durkin
"John Varela" <OLDl...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:ZKRm3c4Ddl7U-p...@dialup-171.75.32.122.Dial1.Washington1.Level3.net...
> On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 00:56:39 UTC, Robert Bannister <rob...@it.net.au>
wrote:
>
> > I've still got two friends who are unselfconsciously called Dick. It
> > doesn't seem to present a problem.
>
> My uncle named his two sons Peter and Dick. I seem to be the only one who
> noticed.
>
Well, your name is the place where your cousins whip it out most often.
Seems to me your folks and your uncle need a woodshedding. But it is a bit
late.
Donna Richoux
> Ben Zimmer <bgzi...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>
> > Donna Richoux wrote:
> > >
> > > Bob Cunningham <exw...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > > > Have there been any great Hortenses in history? I mean,
> > > > besides Matti?
> > >
> > > "Hortensia" is what the Dutch call the hydrangea, so I looked up why. It
> > > turns out that Hortense de Beauharnais, daughter of the Empress
> > > Josephine and the step-daughter of Napoleon Bonaparte, was Queen of
> > > Holland, too. She also gave her name to one of the world's largest
> > > diamonds.
> >
> > Hmm... OED says "hortensia" was named after "the wife of J.-A. Lepaute
> > (1720-c1787), French clockmaker". First used by P. Commerson in 1789.
> >
> > Some discussion on fr.lettres.langue.francaise here:
> > http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3EFD5159...@noos.fr
I've been having fun following all sorts of leads, and I can tell you
that what appear to be two different women in that French letter are
really one and the same: Hortense Lepaute, wife of the royal clockmaker,
Mme Nicole Reine Lepeaute, celebrated mathematician -- all one person.
Her full name was Nicole-Reine Etable de la Briere Hortense Lepaute; I
haven't actually been able to establish whether she used her middle name
"Hortense" publicly at the time or not. She was more than a
mathematician:
[From a "Women in Astronomy" site]
NICOLE-REINE LEPAUTE: Nicole-Reine was born in
France in 1723. Not much is known of her childhood.
She married Jean-Andre Lepaute (1720-89) who was the
royal clockmaker. Nicole studied the oscillations of
pendulums of different lengths, and her results were
published by her husband in his Traite D'horlogerie
in 1755.
She was hired by J.J. Lalande, the director
of the Paris Observatory, to help Clairaut determine
the nature of the gravitational attraction of
Jupiter and Saturn on Halley's Comet and calculate
the exact time of its return in 1759. Lalande gave
Nicole full credit for her work. She went on to
calculate the path of the 1764 eclipse of the sun
for all of Europe and the chart was published by the
French government. for 15 years, from 1759 to 1774,
she helped Lalande with an almanac for use by
astronomers and navigators, published by the
Academie des Sciences, and then from 1774 to 1783,
she worked ont he 7th and 8th volumes of the
Ephemeris, calculating the positions of the sun,
moon, and planets covering the decade from 1784 to
1794.
She dies a quiet death in 1788 and a crater
on the moon is named after her.
I think that French post you gave probably has the gist of the case
right. Some flower was named by Commerson or someone else in honor of
Mme. Lepaute; that post has "peautia caelestina" and I've seen it as
"Lepautia caelestina". Celestial, get it? (I can't find any official
record of the name.) Then the same person or someone else decided that
the Lepautia plant was really a Hortensia, an already-existing genus,
and so changed its name. That sort of realization and name change
happens fairly often. Yet it is just tricky enough that it might have
confused the OED.
The French botanist Commerson's got his own dramatic story -- he took
his girlfriend Jeanne along on the big 1766 expedition run by
Bougainville. She disguised herself as a man and worked on the crew, and
the deception wasn't discovered until Tahiti. She and Commerson left the
ship at Mauritius (near Madagascar), where Commerson still did what he
could for the natural sciences until his death five years later. So, he
never got back to France.
> > Either way, it seems like an awfully convenient name for a flower, since
> > "Hortensia" comes from Latin _hortensi(u)s_ 'of or belonging to a
> > garden' (f. _hortus_ 'garden').
Precisely why Commerson created the flower name "Hortensia" is still
unknown to me. Probably the "garden" meaning. But maybe in honor of
someone. Or both.
Evan Kirshenbaum
> PS -- Kerry will be the hands-down winner in New Hampshire next
> week. My crystal ball, assisted by knowledge of the results from
> the most recent US polls, also tells me a Democrat will be the next
> President.
I note that that statement can still be true if Bush wins in
November.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |So when can we quit passing laws and
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |raising taxes? When can we say of
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |our political system, "Stick a fork
|in it, it's done?"
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com | P.J. O'Rourke
(650)857-7572
R H Draney
>
>Charles Riggs <CHA...@aircom.net> writes:
>
>> PS -- Kerry will be the hands-down winner in New Hampshire next
>> week. My crystal ball, assisted by knowledge of the results from
>> the most recent US polls, also tells me a Democrat will be the next
>> President.
>
>I note that that statement can still be true if Bush wins in
>November.
That occurred to me as well...this year, there are four possible outcomes:
(1) Bush wins, pushing the "next President" question into 2008
(2) A Democrat wins, making Charles's crystal ball correct immediately
(3) A third-party candidate wins, a first in US Presidential politics, or
(4) Bush is not the Republican candidate in November...given his current
approval rating and the traditional edge an incumbent has both in primaries and
in the general election, it's unlikely that he'll fail to be nominated by his
party unless something dire happens (the last time the party favorite missed
appearing on the ballot was 1968, a tragic and--more importantly--uncommon
occurrence)....
Let's set aside possibilities 3 and 4 at this point....
Now if it goes to 2008, Dububbya will be ineligible to run under the provisions
of the 22nd Amendment, and the likely choice of the GOP at that time will be
Dick Cheney...the party in the White House has nominated either its incumbent
President or its Vice-President in every election since 1956 and things have, if
anything, become even more hidebound since...all those months in an "undisclosed
location" and out of the limelight can't but hurt Cheney's appeal to voters, and
if the Democrats lose this time out they'll have four years to concentrate their
efforts on further building their base and positioning a genuinely strong
candidate to run...whoever they pick in '08 (my crystal ball is dark on this
point) will be a virtual shoo-in....r
Dr Robin Bignall
"Valley" reminds me of "cleavage" and... No, I won't take that thought any
further (until she visits me in England). ;)
Evan Kirshenbaum
> "Valley" reminds me of "cleavage" and... No, I won't take that
> thought any further (until she visits me in England). ;)
We are *not* going down that path again!
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |People think it must be fun to be a
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |super genius, but they don't
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |realize how hard it is to put up
|with all the idiots in the world.
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com | Calvin
(650)857-7572
R J Valentine
...
} About the subject line: I greatly dislike it when I write a
} meaningful subject line and then see it used for weeks above
} discussions that have nothing to do with it. My answer to
} the problem is to use nonsense subject lines to begin with.
Yeah, but how hard would't've been to have stuck an "etc." after the
nonsense word (in the spirit of encouraging conformity)?
--
R. J. Valentine <mailto:conformit...@wicked.smart.net>
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Oops! Sorry.
Charles Riggs
<OLDl...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 00:56:39 UTC, Robert Bannister <rob...@it.net.au> wrote:
>
>> I've still got two friends who are unselfconsciously called Dick. It
>> doesn't seem to present a problem.
>
>My uncle named his two sons Peter and Dick. I seem to be the only one who
>noticed.
More serious was when an acquaintance of my father, a Mr Dick, named
his newborn Harry. He, not Harry, considered it highly amusing.
Charles Riggs
<mariaco...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Charles Riggs wrote:
>> Maria Conlon wrote:
>
>>> Sometimes I long for those innocent days.
>>
>> Yeah, bring back those good old nuclear attack drills.
>
>"Air raid drills."
Did we think it'd be Russian airplanes delivering nuclear bombs or
that it'd more likely be missiles equipped with nuclear warheads
dropping in our yards?
Air raid drills are what they had in London a decade earlier.
>> PS -- Kerry will be the hands-down winner in New Hampshire next week.
>> My crystal ball, assisted by knowledge of the results from the most
>> recent US polls, also tells me a Democrat will be the next President.
>> Happy days are here again.
>
>PS -- Sure, Kerry will probably win in New Hampshire, despite the
>obvious moral superiority of Joe Lieberman. The rest of your crystal
>ball's prediction is pure fantasy. You may as well ask questions of one
>of those 8-ball things.
We'll see in November who, you or me, is right. After the resignation
of the arms inspector, along with what he had to say about Bush's
foolish proclaimed justification for attacking Iraq, I'm even more
certain Bush is going down. Going down big time. Happy days will soon
be here again.
>> What an ass Bush made of himself, reaffirming his idiocy, during his
>> State of the Union address. Hard for me to decide whether to laugh or
>cry as I watched his performance.
>
>The one who made an ass of himself was Ted Kennedy, but it played well
>in Kennedy-Kerry liberal-lefty Massachusetts, no doubt. As for Bush's
>performance, I applauded. Didn't you like the "permission slip"
>statement?
As much as I liked his 'dead or alive' statement. Your man is a
cowboy. In the eyes of the world, he looks like the fool he is. Some
wool appears to still be covering your eyes, however. I hope you'll
see the light soon.
>But enough U. S. politics. You need to be *here*, Charles, IMO, to get
>the full flavor.
No, you need to be in Europe. Only here will you get the larger
picture. People are laughing at Bush and, as a result, Americans, if
you people in the Midwest hadn't realized that by now. Thankfully, a
large number of voters live on the one, or the other, coast. There are
a few in-between who also recognize the urgency of ridding the world
of Mr Bush's influence. He is a very dangerous man, as is any deluded
evangelist who wields a large amount of power.
Mickwick
>More serious was when an acquaintance of my father, a Mr Dick, named
>his newborn Harry. He, not Harry, considered it highly amusing.
A friend surnamed Cove named his first-born Sandy.
--
Mickwick
Laura F Spira
My mother knew a Pearl Button and my aunt's first names were Violet Ray
(but that wouldn't have seemed so odd around 1915, I suppose.)
I am reading a book by a Harvard professor called Lynn Sharp Paine. I
assume that her maiden name was Sharp and she just couldn't resist the
combination. The acknowledgements reveal that her husband is called Tom.
Robert Lieblich
Time once again, I guess, to bring up my grammar-school classmate
Iva Payne.
--
Bob Lieblich
This post dedicated to Robin Bignall
Frances Kemmish
I'm sure I've mentioned before that I used to work with a man called
Robin Banks. Checking to see the last time I brought it up, I found lots
of references to a female blues singer also called Robin Banks.
At least it's memorable.
--
Frances Kemmish
Production Manager
East Coast Youth Ballet
www.byramartscenter.com
Tony Cooper
<Robert....@Verizon.net> wrote:
>Mickwick wrote:
>>
>> In alt.usage.english, Charles Riggs wrote:
>>
>> >More serious was when an acquaintance of my father, a Mr Dick, named
>> >his newborn Harry. He, not Harry, considered it highly amusing.
>>
>> A friend surnamed Cove named his first-born Sandy.
>
>Time once again, I guess, to bring up my grammar-school classmate
>Iva Payne.
Add the lady I met named Bunny Rabitt. She was not named Bunny at
birth, but legally changed her name to Bunny when she was in her early
20s. She said that's what every called her, so she might as be Bunny.
R H Draney
>
>I am reading a book by a Harvard professor called Lynn Sharp Paine. I
>assume that her maiden name was Sharp and she just couldn't resist the
>combination. The acknowledgements reveal that her husband is called Tom.
Every Monday night, Jay Leno does a feature he calls "Headlines" which usually
includes a list of humorous wedding announcements...the family names being
joined are often used as the headline when such announcements are placed in the
newspaper, so his viewers scour the local notices for things like the
"Gettinet-Dailey" wedding...the list usually ends with one that plays on the
phallic significance of a certain very common name; "Aiken-Johnson" once got one
of the biggest laughs....
The best I've been able to find was a bride who *could* have hyphenated her
married name as "Brown-Pyle"....r
Pat Durkin
"Charles Riggs" <CHA...@aircom.net> wrote in message
news:2t5410tk6og2ketdt...@4ax.com...
Another egregious slam at the Midwest.
John Varela
<Robert....@Verizon.net> wrote:
> Time once again, I guess, to bring up my grammar-school classmate
> Iva Payne.
In college I knew Peter (Pete) Toohy, pronounced Ptui.
Maria Conlon
[regarding Charles Riggs's comment]
> Another egregious slam at the Midwest.
Yes. Pat, you and I and the other sensible AUEers (most of whom are in
the Midwest or at least have spent part of their lives here) need to get
together and form a -- what? A club, a committee, a think tank? No...
um -- wait a minute! I know! A mob. Yes, a mob, formed specifically to
teach them whippersnappers and smart-alecks from the coasts a thing or
two.
I'm ready to take 'em on.
--
Maria Conlon
Bob Cunningham
Which coast is Ireland on?
Laura F Spira
I've spent a week in Omaha and five days in Chicago. Am I sensible?
Matti Lamprhey
Do you remember, years ago, a BBC series about nurses, called _Angels_?
One of the young male nurses was played by Martin Barrass, and since
then I've noticed many other people with that surname having a forename
beginning with 'M'.
Matti
Truly Donovan
<la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
>
>I've spent a week in Omaha and five days in Chicago. Am I sensible?
That's seven more days than I've spent in Omaha, but I've got you
beat all hollow for Chicago.
OBaue: How did "all hollow" come to mean "completely"?
--
Truly Donovan
Lexy Connor mysteries: Chandler's Daughter, Winslow's Wife
http://www.trulydonovan.com
tr...@trulydonovan.com
Robert Lieblich
Yeah, where is Areff these days?
--
Bob Lieblich
Where am I? come to think of it
Robert Lieblich
Will you accept applications from people born and reared in Flyover
Country even if we now live in a coastal state?
>
> I'm ready to take 'em on.
You and the Cowardly Lion (after he got his medal).
--
Bob Lieblich
And me
Charles Riggs
Interesting word, egregious. With its several meanings, some the
opposite from others, I can see how useful it might be at times. I'll
try to remember it.
Since I gave the Midwest a good deal of credit this time, I'm not sure
which meaning of the word was intended.
Charles Riggs
Its inhabitants apparently think it is on the East coast since they
flock in droves to Boston and New York, rarely going further west. No
need to really, so I applaud their preference.
Charles Riggs
<la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
Certainly. You left, didn't you?
Aside: Chicago, as I think Richard will confirm, is actually an East
coast city: it's okay, in other words. San Francisco is the only other
city to have this never-never land characteristic. It's even more than
okay.
Martin Ambuhl
> OBaue: How did "all hollow" come to mean "completely"?
This is what OED2 has to say:
hollow, a. and adv.
[...]
A. adj.
[...]
6. [f. the adv.: cf. B. 2.] Complete, thorough, out-and-out. colloq.
1750 Coventry Pompey Litt. i. xvi. (1785) 41/1 It was quite a hollow
thing; Goliah won the day.
1761 Colman Jealous Wife v. (D.), So, my lord, you and I are both
distanced; a hollow thing, damme.
1852 Dickens Bleak Ho. lxiv, Which, in the opinion of my friends, is a
hollow bargain.
1894 Times 31 July 11/1 The Prince's cutter steadily left her opponent
and gained a very hollow victory.
[...]
B. adv.
2. Thoroughly, completely, out-and-out; also (U.S.) all hollow. colloq.
[The origin of this is obscure, and has excited conjecture from its
first appearance in literature.]
1668–71 Skinner Etymol. Ling. Angl. s.v., He carried it Hollow,
Luculenter Vicit vel Superavit,..credo dictum quasi ‘he carried it wholy’.
1762 Foote Orators i. Wks. 1799 I. 193 Foote... You succeeded? Suds...
Yes, yes, I got it all hollow.
1767 Chesterfield Lett. (1794) IV. cccxxi. 267 He set up for the County
of Middlesex, and carried it hollow, as the jockeys say.
1786 Wolcott (P. Pindar) Farew. Odes xiv. Wks. 1794 I. 185 I'm greatly
pleas'd..To see the foreigners beat hollow.
1824 W. Irving T. Trav. II. 39 Her blood carried it all hollow.
1839 Times 19 Oct., In the article of hypocrisy..as in sheer impudence,
Minto has it hollow.
1851 J. H. Newman Cath. in Eng. 367 Local opinion would carry it hollow
against popular opinion.
1859 Geo. Eliot A. Bede 47 She beats us younger people hollow.
[...]
--
Martin Ambuhl
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Truly Donovan <tr...@lunemere.com> wrote:
> >
> > OBaue: How did "all hollow" come to mean "completely"?
> >
>
> The only reference I could quickly find comes from John Ciardi:
>
> beat all hollow 1. To beat overwhelmingly. 2. To be better than in
> every way. "Drinking beats working all hollow." ["Beat hollow" is
> attested in Brit. 1759. "All hollow," which is Am. only, attested
> 1762. "Hollow" is prob. a corruption of "wholely." If so, the
> original Brit. form may have been "to beat wholely"; and the Am.
> "all" may be a root echo of the lost "wholely."]
Hmm. Lots more hits for "wholely" than I would have thought. What's
the distribution for "wholely" vs. "wholly"? (The latter leads about
172:1 on Google.)
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |On a scale of one to ten...
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |it sucked.
Palo Alto, CA 94304
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
Pat Durkin
I hope Areff shows up to counter your interpretation of Chicago's place in
the firmament.
It is hardly the goal of the lemmings that rush to the coasts.
Recall, Charles. Richard thinks Chicago is landlocked.
Charles Riggs
<durk...@nothome.com> wrote:
>"Charles Riggs" <CHA...@aircom.net> wrote in message
>news:vob610tiltk4b6ilo...@4ax.com...
>> Aside: Chicago, as I think Richard will confirm, is actually an East
>> coast city: it's okay, in other words. San Francisco is the only other
>> city to have this never-never land characteristic. It's even more than
>> okay.
>
>I hope Areff shows up to counter your interpretation of Chicago's place in
>the firmament.
I thought he'd written a few kind words about it. I realize there is
only one real city, but I think he allows for the slim possibility
that a few others might be acceptable to some.
>It is hardly the goal of the lemmings that rush to the coasts.
>
>Recall, Charles. Richard thinks Chicago is landlocked.
Richard has said a great many things, Pat. I'd need a memory far
better than mine to keep track of half of them.
Richard Maurer
That's seven more days than I've spent in Omaha, but I've got you
beat all hollow for Chicago.
OBaue: How did "all hollow" come to mean "completely"?
[end quote] >>
<< [Murray Arnow]
The only reference I could quickly find comes from John Ciardi:
beat all hollow 1. To beat overwhelmingly. 2. To be better than in
every way. "Drinking beats working all hollow." ["Beat hollow" is
attested in Brit. 1759. "All hollow," which is Am. only, attested
1762. "Hollow" is prob. a corruption of "wholely." If so, the
original Brit. form may have been "to beat wholely"; and the Am.
"all" may be a root echo of the lost "wholely."]
[end quote] >>
<< [Martin Ambuhl]
[end quote] >>
This is completely new to me.
I note in the above:
"The Prince's cutter steadily left her opponent
and gained a very hollow victory."
I always took "hollow victory" with the "empty, superficial" meaning.
The "complete" sense does not appear in my AmHer1(1969),
so may I take it that all of the above are archaic?
How should we read "hollow victory" today?
What other idioms use this "complete" hollow?
How much repair work is needed?
-- ---------------------------------------------
Richard Maurer To reply, remove half
Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
david56
Good Grief, you remember the men? What about Nurse Rose Butchins,
eh? She is the partner of Richard "Countdowns" Whiteley. Bet you
didn't know that.
--
David
=====
Ben Zimmer
>
> << [Truly Donovan]
> OBaue: How did "all hollow" come to mean "completely"?
> [end quote] >>
>
> This is what OED2 has to say:
>
> hollow, a. and adv.
> [...]
> A. adj.
> [...]
> 6. [f. the adv.: cf. B. 2.] Complete, thorough, out-and-out. colloq.
> 1750 Coventry Pompey Litt. i. xvi. (1785) 41/1 It was quite a hollow
> thing; Goliah won the day.
> 1761 Colman Jealous Wife v. (D.), So, my lord, you and I are both
> distanced; a hollow thing, damme.
> 1852 Dickens Bleak Ho. lxiv, Which, in the opinion of my friends, is a
> hollow bargain.
> 1894 Times 31 July 11/1 The Prince's cutter steadily left her opponent
> and gained a very hollow victory.
> [...]
> B. adv.
> 2. Thoroughly, completely, out-and-out; also (U.S.) all hollow. colloq.
> [The origin of this is obscure, and has excited conjecture from its
> first appearance in literature.]
> [end quote] >>
>
> This is completely new to me.
> I note in the above:
> "The Prince's cutter steadily left her opponent
> and gained a very hollow victory."
> I always took "hollow victory" with the "empty, superficial" meaning.
> The "complete" sense does not appear in my AmHer1(1969),
> so may I take it that all of the above are archaic?
I don't see "hollow = complete" listed in any of the major dictionaries
besides OED, so I think we can safely consider it archaic. Even the
adverbial "hollow = completely" seems rather obsolete to me, surviving
(for some) in the fixed expression "all hollow".
> How should we read "hollow victory" today?
I think one can only read this now as "empty/worthless/false victory".
From the looks of the OED cites, this was only a contronym [1] in the
18th-19th centuries.
Speaking of historical contronyms, we discussed "stay the course" here
back in December [2]. William Safire happened to make a query about
this phrase in his "On Language" column, and my response (based on the
AUE discussion) ended up appearing in his column two weeks ago (still
available on the International Herald Tribune site [3]).
[1]
http://www.alt-usage-english.org/excerpts/fxwhatwo.html
[2]
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3FD76EDB...@midway.uchicago.edu
[3]
http://www.iht.com/articles/124575.html
Martin Ambuhl
> I don't see "hollow = complete" listed in any of the major dictionaries
> besides OED, so I think we can safely consider it archaic. Even the
> adverbial "hollow = completely" seems rather obsolete to me, surviving
> (for some) in the fixed expression "all hollow".
You have a perverse sense of what qualifies as a major dictionary.
Perhaps you don't consider SOED5 a major dictionary or, perhaps, as
distinct from the OED. In any case, it has
hollow
[...]
B /adverb/ [...]
2 Thoroughly, completely. /coloq./ M17
Geo. Eliot: "She beat us younger people hollow."
It is not marked obsolete, and does not have a terminus ante, which SOED5
supplies for words it considers no longer living.
Perhaps you don't consider Chambers (2003) a major dictionary. Once again
you would be in error. It has -- and this is the primary adverbial use it
gives --
hollow
[...]
/adv/ completely, as in /beat/ (ie defeat) /someone hollow/; [...]
Once again, no marking as obsolete.
Perhaps you don't consider MWCD11 (2003) a major dictionary. Once again
you would be in error. There we find
hollow /adv/ (1601)
[...]
2 : completely, thoroughly <an ongoing story that has the old
cowboy-and-Indians genre beat [hollow] - Barbara Bannon> -- ofter used
with /all/
Once again, no marking as obsolete.
Perhaps you should rethink any claim based on your extemely obscure idea of
what is a major dictionary.
--
Martin Ambuhl
Maria Conlon
> Maria Conlon said:
>> Pat Durkin wrote:
>> [regarding Charles Riggs's comment]
>
>>> Another egregious slam at the Midwest.
>
>> Yes. Pat, you and I and the other sensible AUEers (most of whom are
>> in the Midwest or at least have spent part of their lives here) need
>> to get together and form a -- what? A club, a committee, a think
>> tank? No... um -- wait a minute! I know! A mob. Yes, a mob, formed
>> specifically to teach them whippersnappers and smart-alecks from the
>> coasts a thing or two.
>
> Which coast is Ireland on?
I was referring to the east and west coasts of the US. I realize this
was not made clear. When I said "AUEers," I meant Amercian AUEers,
forgetting temporarily that dissers of the Midwest could be from
anywhere in AUEland.
I'm sorry that I confused people.
By the way, the mob I propose will welcome volunteers from the UK,
Ireland, Canada, Australia, and other English-speaking locales.
--
Maria Conlon
Maria Conlon
> Bob Cunningham wrote:
>>> Pat Durkin wrote:
>>> [regarding Charles Riggs's comment]
>>
>>>> Another egregious slam at the Midwest.
>>
>>> Yes. Pat, you and I and the other sensible AUEers (most of whom are
>>> in the Midwest or at least have spent part of their lives here)
>>> need to get together and form a -- what? A club, a committee, a
>>> think tank? No... um -- wait a minute! I know! A mob. Yes, a mob,
>>> formed specifically to teach them whippersnappers and smart-alecks
>>> from the coasts a thing or two.
>>
>> Which coast is Ireland on?
>
> Its inhabitants apparently think it is on the East coast since they
> flock in droves to Boston and New York, rarely going further west. No
> need to really, so I applaud their preference.
I am thankful the Conlons (from Carrick-on-Shannon) continued in a
western direction and settled in Detroit. Smart folks. One of them did
end up in California some years later, but he was not quite as bright as
his brothers and sisters, and probably felt at home out there.
--
Maria Conlon
Maria Conlon
Certainly! And, if you'll read my response to Bob C., you'll see that
non-US volunteers will be welcome to our Midwest Mob. Professors from
any location are certainly welcome -- we are not anti-academia -- and I
hope Prof. Lawler will see this note, too.
Membership cards are not quite ready, not having been begun as yet.
--
Maria Conlon
Maria Conlon
> Maria Conlon wrote:
>> Pat Durkin wrote:
>> [regarding Charles Riggs's comment]
>>
>>> Another egregious slam at the Midwest.
>>
>> Yes. Pat, you and I and the other sensible AUEers (most of whom are
>> in the Midwest or at least have spent part of their lives here) need
>> to get together and form a -- what? A club, a committee, a think
>> tank? No... um -- wait a minute! I know! A mob. Yes, a mob, formed
>> specifically to teach them whippersnappers and smart-alecks from the
>> coasts a thing or two.
>
> Will you accept applications from people born and reared in Flyover
> Country even if we now live in a coastal state?
Certainly! See (above) what I said about living "part of their lives
here." (And see also my response to Bob C.)
>> I'm ready to take 'em on.
>
> You and the Cowardly Lion (after he got his medal).
Well, I don't guess I'll ever get any medals, but I'll stand up and
fight for the Great Midwest anyway. Its dissing critics are stone cold
wrong, and that's more wrong than wrong, wrong, wrongity, wrong.
--
Maria Conlon
Hi, Bob.
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Ben Zimmer wrote:
>
> > I don't see "hollow = complete" listed in any of the major
> > dictionaries besides OED, so I think we can safely consider it
> > archaic. Even the adverbial "hollow = completely" seems rather
> > obsolete to me, surviving (for some) in the fixed expression "all
> > hollow".
>
> You have a perverse sense of what qualifies as a major dictionary.
Would you be more satisfied with a restatement:
Even the adverbial "hollow = completely" seems rather obsolete to
me, surviving (for some) in the fixed expression "beat (all)
hollow".
I note that all three dictionaries you cite refer to the word "beat",
and I'd say that I've only heard it used in that fixed phrase. I
can't imagine it being used with another verb except as a conscious
play on "beat all hollow".
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |The body was wrapped in duct tape,
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |weighted down with concrete blocks
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |and a telephone cord was tied
|around the neck. Police suspect
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |foul play...
(650)857-7572
Bob Cunningham
If I understand correctly, you will accept applications from
people in Moldavia and Taiwan, but not from Californians for
two reasons:
1. They are near a coast.
2. They are not bright.
Maria Conlon
Unless said Californians have spent part of their lives in the Midwest,
and/or feel kindly towards the Midwest, do you think they'd be
interested in joining? If yes, that's intriguing. One has to wonder why.
By the way, the "not bright" remark I made (in another post) *could*
indicate that Californians are a very tolerant, and make newcomers feel
at home. Could have.
But if you understand my posts on this subject in the 1-2 fashion you
indicated, then that's what you understand. But there's no problem --you
can join anyway providing you defend the Great Midwest henceforth.
Oh. Did I mention dues yet?
--
Maria Conlon
Ben Zimmer
Perhaps you should reread my claim -- of the major dictionaries, only
the OED lists "hollow" meaning "complete", i.e., in its *adjectival*
sense. (Richard Maurer was asking about a cite where "hollow victory"
was construed to mean "complete victory".) The references you've given
are all for "hollow" in its *adverbial* sense ("completely"), which I
granted is a usage that survives in some people's active vocabulary.
But as Evan points out, even the adverbial sense only seems possible in
"beat (all) hollow", which would put "hollow" in the same category as
"caboodle", "druthers", "kibosh", "vim", and various other fossilized
lexical items. See Jeff Sherman's list of "verbal vestigia" and Mike
Bandy's commentary thereon:
http://bookshelf.info/wordlists/v/vev/www/
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dmpehvoe066p9h3p9...@4ax.com
Bob Cunningham
<mariaco...@hotmail.com> said:
> Bob Cunningham wrote:
> > Maria Conlon said:
> >> Pat Durkin wrote:
> >> [regarding Charles Riggs's comment]
> >
> >>> Another egregious slam at the Midwest.
> >
> >> Yes. Pat, you and I and the other sensible AUEers (most of whom are
> >> in the Midwest or at least have spent part of their lives here) need
> >> to get together and form a -- what? A club, a committee, a think
> >> tank? No... um -- wait a minute! I know! A mob. Yes, a mob, formed
> >> specifically to teach them whippersnappers and smart-alecks from the
> >> coasts a thing or two.
> >
> > Which coast is Ireland on?
> >[...]
>
> I was referring to the east and west coasts of the US. I realize this
> was not made clear.
I thought it was quite clear that you were referring to
Charles Riggs, since he was the slammer that Pat Durkin had
slammed.
Maria Conlon
Interesting. My post was a response, more or less, to Charles's remarks
(as, of course, was obvious), but the coasts were as I just said -- east
and west coasts of the US. Charles's posts have been known to include
criticism of the Midwest and praise of the east and west US coasts. My
posts have been known to contradict what Charles says about the Midwest
and the coasts. Ireland rarely comes into it.
And "slamming"? "Friendly jousting" is a more apt term, I think.
I've grown rather fond, by the way, of "Hortense." Thus, I've
reinstalled the name in first place in the subject line.
--
Maria Conlon
Richard Maurer
Perhaps you should reread my claim -- of the major dictionaries, only
the OED lists "hollow" meaning "complete", i.e., in its *adjectival*
sense. (Richard Maurer was asking about a cite where "hollow victory"
was construed to mean "complete victory".) The references you've given
are all for "hollow" in its *adverbial* sense ("completely"), which I
granted is a usage that survives in some people's active vocabulary.
But as Evan points out, even the adverbial sense only seems possible in
"beat (all) hollow", which would put "hollow" in the same category as
"caboodle", "druthers", "kibosh", "vim", and various other fossilized
lexical items. See Jeff Sherman's list of "verbal vestigia" and Mike
Bandy's commentary thereon:
[end quote] >>
Adjective or adverb, active or passive -- anything with the "complete"
sense was completely unfamiliar. Perhaps when it made its way
to California the phrase had morphed to "beat it to hell" or
"beat it all to hell" or "beat all to hell" or "beat all".
As for "hollow victory", the quote with the "complete" sense
was from 1895, which does not seem all that long ago.
Did the "empty victory" meaning start after 1895, or was
there a long period when both meanings were active?
Charles Riggs
<mariaco...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Charles's posts have been known to include
>criticism of the Midwest and praise of the east and west US coasts. My
>posts have been known to contradict what Charles says about the Midwest
>and the coasts.
I'll let you in on a little secret, Maria: I was born smack dab in the
middle of the country, far away from either coast. I like ALL of
America, still recognizing that certain parts of it are culturally
superior to certain others. Six months after being born, I left the
wholly wilds of the beautiful, but wishy-washy, In-Between and settled
on the solid banks of the East coast, in the America our Founding
Fathers founded. I never regretted the trip of course, but I have no
problem whatever with those who remained behind, or even those who
made the reverse trip, ho-ho-ho, if there are such folk. Westward-ho,
yes, but I'd hope the travelers would know not to get off prematurely,
either 'I Love New York' or 'California, Here I Come' being the song
I'd assume they were singing.
Ben Zimmer
>
> As for "hollow victory", the quote with the "complete" sense
> was from 1895, which does not seem all that long ago.
> Did the "empty victory" meaning start after 1895, or was
> there a long period when both meanings were active?
"Hollow" meaning "empty, false" is attested back to the 16th century.
I'm not sure when "hollow victory" in that sense began to be used, but
it was certainly before the 1895 quote. ProQuest has it back to 1848:
The Position of the Democratic Party -- Southern Alliance.
National Era, Nov 30, 1848.
Though it [the Democratic Party] might at first win
a hollow victory, its ultimate defeat and extinction
would be as certain as that the spirit of the age is
progressive.
And here's a Making of America cite from 1866 (also, oddly enough, about
the Democratic Party):
http://tinyurl.com/39sfy
The Origin of the Late War, by George Lunt. 1866.
The Democratic success in the election proved, in
fact, but a hollow victory.
Matti Lamprhey
> Matti Lamprhey spake thus:
> >
> > Do you remember, years ago, a BBC series about nurses, called
> > _Angels_? One of the young male nurses was played by Martin
> > Barrass, and since then I've noticed many other people with that
> > surname having a forename beginning with 'M'.
>
> Good Grief, you remember the men? What about Nurse Rose Butchins,
> eh? She is the partner of Richard "Countdowns" Whiteley. Bet you
> didn't know that.
I didn't know that. She was a great nurse -- I always think of her if I
ever have a chest complaint, coming.
Matti
-- Truss me: I'm a punctuation expurt
Mickwick
>By the way, the mob I propose will welcome volunteers from the UK,
>Ireland, Canada, Australia, and other English-speaking locales.
May I join, please?
As a token of goodwill, here is part of the supposedly anonymous (but
probably from Illuminatus! or something) 'Manifesto of the Artistic
Elite of the Midwest' (cut and pasted (so its not my flaut)):
We believe in the sanity and stability of the Midwest and refute
those of either coast who see the heartland as oppressive,
backward, uncultured (we _are_ redneck, motherfucker), etc.
This is propaganda created by the intellectual power elite of
the East in their cynical and ruthless attempt to keep the
chains on middle america. We claim solidarity with the Third
World as an exploited people! As one of the richest Third World
nations we vow to beat our Winebagos in plowshares in order to
do our part in the growing Third World alliance. [...] This is a
call for solidarity of all Midwestern peoples so that we can
refute the political ideas of the East, to call a halt to the
convenient image of the Midwest as a passive land filled with
bumpkins and hay- seeds. Of easily led puppets, of a land
easily dominated by the ideas and wills of our English speaking
cousins. We're not your puppets anymore! We need to restructure
our Eastern dominated universities. Solidarity with the Canadian
Midlands. Solidarity with the Ukraine!
http://mud.lysator.liu.se/cgi-bin/finger.pl?who=beldin
Let us climb aboard the Winnebago of regional autonomy and block the
highway of littoral hegemony! If we drive slowly enough, together we can
refute the East Coast!
--
Mickwick
david56
Thank you for the invitation. Before I apply, how far do "the
coasts" stretch inland? I am well away from the coast here in
Warrington, but you might think that 25 miles does not separate me by
enough to qualify for membership of your mob. Nowhere in the UK is
more than about 100 miles from the sea.
--
David
=====
Wade Hassler
> Laura F Spira filted:
> >
> >I am reading a book by a Harvard professor called Lynn Sharp Paine. I
> >assume that her maiden name was Sharp and she just couldn't resist the
> >combination. The acknowledgements reveal that her husband is called Tom.
>
> includes a list of humorous wedding announcements...the family names being
> joined are often used as the headline when such announcements are placed in the
> newspaper, so his viewers scour the local notices for things like the
> "Gettinet-Dailey" wedding...the list usually ends with one that plays on the
> phallic significance of a certain very common name; "Aiken-Johnson" once got one
> of the biggest laughs....
>
> The best I've been able to find was a bride who *could* have hyphenated her
> married name as "Brown-Pyle"....r
There was one in the National Lampoon 'True Facts' section waybackwhen
who could have hyphenated hers "Swallows-Cox." But likely didn't.
Dr Robin Bignall
wrote:
True, but I'd like to apply because I must have flown over the Midwest a
time or two. As far as I can remember, it was a great experience, and
belonging to a well-organised mob appeals to me.
--
wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall
Quiet part of Hertfordshire
England
Dr Robin Bignall
<mariaco...@hotmail.com> wrote:
[the Midwest supporters' mob]
>
>Oh. Did I mention dues yet?
I knew there'd be a snag.
Robert Lieblich
>
> On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 16:50:19 -0500, "Maria Conlon"
> <mariaco...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> [the Midwest supporters' mob]
> >
> >Oh. Did I mention dues yet?
>
> I knew there'd be a snag.
This is very discouraging. I assumed that, like all warriors, we'd
be on salary.
Be careful, Tootsie, you never know who's watching.
--
Bob Lieblich
Former naval person
Laura F Spira
> In alt.usage.english, Maria Conlon wrote:
>
>
>>By the way, the mob I propose will welcome volunteers from the UK,
>>Ireland, Canada, Australia, and other English-speaking locales.
>
>
> May I join, please?
>
> As a token of goodwill, here is part of the supposedly anonymous (but
> probably from Illuminatus! or something) 'Manifesto of the Artistic
> Elite of the Midwest' (cut and pasted (so its not my flaut)):
>
Flaut is good (I assume it was deliberate).
<snip>
>
> http://mud.lysator.liu.se/cgi-bin/finger.pl?who=beldin
Blimey, that last paragraph about archbishops was a bit racy...
>
> Let us climb aboard the Winnebago of regional autonomy and block the
> highway of littoral hegemony! If we drive slowly enough, together we can
> refute the East Coast!
>
That's a bit too wordy for the banner, though: can you come up with
something pithier, please?
And, now I come to think of it, whatever happened to the Axis of
Misbehaviour? Tootsie?
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Maria Conlon
> And, now I come to think of it, whatever happened to the Axis of
> Misbehaviour? Tootsie?
I've misbehaved so much that you and the others don't need to. It seems
I've found my true talent after all these years -- making people
extremely angry just by stating my opinions. Oh, well. When we get the
mob going, I'll ask for deputies to do the angering so I can recoup.
--
Maria Conlon
Maria Conlon
> Maria Conlon spake thus:
>> By the way, the mob I propose will welcome volunteers from the UK,
>> Ireland, Canada, Australia, and other English-speaking locales.
>
> Thank you for the invitation. Before I apply, how far do "the
> coasts" stretch inland? I am well away from the coast here in
> Warrington, but you might think that 25 miles does not separate me by
> enough to qualify for membership of your mob. Nowhere in the UK is
> more than about 100 miles from the sea.
That's okay. The only coasts that might present problems to the Great
Midwest Mob are those that lie on the right and left sides of the
contiguous 48 states.[1] Residents of other coastal areas in the world
don't seem to think ill of the Midwest -- in fact, they may not think of
the Midwest at all.
[1] And not all the residents of those US coasts are anti-Midwest. Some
of them are simply pro-coast. I can live with that.
--
Maria Conlon
Dr Robin Bignall
<Robert....@Verizon.net> wrote:
>Bob Lieblich
>Former naval person
That reminds me of another of those silly jokes. What's a naval destroyer?
A hula hoop with a nail through it.
What were these things called at the time? (1960s?) I'm sure they had a
name.