Asshole (origin of the word)
Ab Ran
origin of this word.
Does it come from s-hole ? Where "s" stands for shit.
Over time "s" became "ass".
---- Abran.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
tHE qUEEN bEE
Ab Ran wrote:
> This post may sound a bit crass but I am interested in knowing the
> origin of this word.
> Does it come from s-hole ? Where "s" stands for shit.
> Over time "s" became "ass".
> ---- Abran.
Are you serious?
Karen
Schainbaum, Robert
> Ab Ran wrote:
> > This post may sound a bit crass but I am interested in knowing the
> > origin of this word.
>
> > Does it come from s-hole ? Where "s" stands for shit.
> > Over time "s" became "ass".
> > ---- Abran.
>
> Are you serious?
> Karen
He is QB, so why don't you just explain it to him. Think what
he's missing!!!!
/r
tHE qUEEN bEE
> > Are you serious?
> > Karen
I don't know the answer, darling Robert. Asshole = butthole, so I
think we should really find out how "ass" became a synonym for "butt".
Schainbaum, Robert
tHE qUEEN bEE wrote:
> I don't know the answer, darling Robert. Asshole = butthole, so I
> think we should really find out how "ass" became a synonym for "butt".
> Karen
Headache. The issue is so much simpler than that.
N.Mitchum
-----
> Does it come from s-hole ? Where "s" stands for shit.
> Over time "s" became "ass".
No, it comes from "arse," which goes back to Middle English, Old
English, and ultimately Greek. Middle English was spoken by
people who in the main were illiterate; hence, there's small
chance they would have had an inkling as to the first letter of
the Middle English word for "shit."
----NM
N.Mitchum
------
> I don't know why Americans
> spell arse, ass. But it's definitely just a misspelling of arse.
>.....
Try "variant." I could just as well claim that "arse" is a
misspelling, since everyone pronounces it "ass."
----NM
Rill Hoffman
> I don't know the answer, darling Robert. Asshole = butthole, so I
> think we should really find out how "ass" became a synonym for "butt".
AFAIK, it's been around since anglo-saxon times. From a Teutonic language,
according to the OED. Not spelt that way of course, originally spelt several
different ways, standardised to arse by the 17th century, although ars
appeared at least as early as the 11th century. I don't know why Americans
spell arse, ass. But it's definitely just a misspelling of arse. And
arsehole is a fairly obvious leap, arse meaning behind/bum whatever. I think
perhaps your next question should have been 'how "butt" became a synonym for
"arse"', rather than vice versa.
Rill.
Rill Hoffman
> Rill Hoffman wrote:
> ------
> > I don't know why Americans
> > spell arse, ass. But it's definitely just a misspelling of arse.
> >.....
>
> Try "variant." I could just as well claim that "arse" is a
> misspelling, since everyone pronounces it "ass."
Everyone who? I don't for one, nor do most Australians, or the English.
I suppose you mean Americans... The only country that holds a "World
Series" and fails to invite any other nations. Besides, as you
acknowledge in your other post, arse came first.
Oh all right, tactful my first post wasn't. I wonder if ass/arse was one
of the words Noah Webster (it was Webster who initiated the spelling
reforms wasn't it?: colour => color etc) changed in the American
spelling reforms Those have always seemed to me a bit of a dumbing down
rather than reforms, the language tends to lose some of its richness and
it's a lot harder to pick origins of the words.
Rill.
Ab Ran
tHE qUEEN bEE <thequ...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
>
> Ab Ran wrote:
> > This post may sound a bit crass but I am interested in knowing the
> > origin of this word.
>
> > Does it come from s-hole ? Where "s" stands for shit.
> > Over time "s" became "ass".
> > ---- Abran.
>
> Are you serious?
> Karen
I think my question has been answered. Yeah I was serious.
---- Ab.
candl...@my-deja.com
Ab Ran <ab...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> This post may sound a bit crass but I am interested in knowing the
> origin of this word.
>
> Does it come from s-hole ? Where "s" stands for shit.
> Over time "s" became "ass".
>
>
arse, n. Obs. in polite use. Forms: 1 aers, ears,
1-7 ars, 4-5 ers(e, eeres, arce, 4-9 arse. [common
Teut.: cf. OHG., ON., Da., Sw. ars, OFris. ers, G. arsch,
OTeut. *ars-oz, cogn. w. Gr. rroj, *rsoj.]
1. a. The fundament, buttocks, posteriors, or rump of
an animal.
c1000 Aelfric Gloss. in Wright 44/2 Nates, ears-lyre.
1377 Langl. P. Pl. B. v. 175 Baleised on the bare ers [v.r.
ars], and no breche bitwene. 1398 Trevisa Barth. De P.R.
vii. liv. (1495) 267 Emoroides ben fuyue veynes whyche stretche
out atte the eeres. 1480 Caxton Chron. Eng. ccxxvi. 233
They lete hange fox tailles..to hele and hyde her arses. 1547
Boorde Brev. Health xxv. 15b, The 25th chapitre dothe shewe
of a mannes ars. 1663 Butler Hud. i. iii. 964 Then mounted
both upon their Horses, But with their Faces to the Arses. 1704
Swift Batt. Books (1711) 235 Do you think I have nothing else
to do but to mend and repair after your Arse? [i.e. behind
you, in your rear.]
Ian Staples
Rill Hoffman <lel...@iinet.net.au> wrote:
>tHE qUEEN bEE wrote:
>>
>> I don't know the answer, darling Robert. Asshole = butthole, so I
>> think we should really find out how "ass" became a synonym for "butt".
>
>AFAIK, it's been around since anglo-saxon times. From a Teutonic language,
>according to the OED. Not spelt that way of course, originally spelt several
>different ways, standardised to arse by the 17th century, although ars
>appeared at least as early as the 11th century. I don't know why Americans
>spell arse, ass. But it's definitely just a misspelling of arse.
I've always assumed yanks say "ass" for "arse" because they
pronounce it that way. (But that leaves me wondering how
they would say "arse". :-)
I'm now wondering if it's simply a bowdlerised form -- much like
"geez" or "jeez" -- so the evangelicals can curse their neighbours
without appearing to do so. ;-)
But that would imply they don't say "ass" as "arse" wouldn't it?
Cheers, Ian S.
Donna Richoux
> In article <8qp5va$ap1$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> tHE qUEEN bEE <thequ...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >
> > Ab Ran wrote:
> > > This post may sound a bit crass but I am interested in knowing the
> > > origin of this word.
> >
> > > Does it come from s-hole ? Where "s" stands for shit.
> > > Over time "s" became "ass".
> >
> > Are you serious?
>
> I think my question has been answered. Yeah I was serious.
I wonder if your native language is one that uses the same sound for /&/
and /E/? For example, there is no /&/ sound in Dutch, so English
loan-words like flat, tram, and jam are pronounced like "flet, trem,
jem." Many Dutch learners of English never do learn to distinguish
between the two sounds, so, for them, "ass" and "ess" would be
pronounced the same. I wonder if that is so for you, in which case I can
see why you would associate the ideas.
I can also imagine other reasonable reasons for you to think this --
"shithole" *is* a real word, and some words do get abbreviated to a
single letter: e-mail, a-bomb, etc. And then there's the F-word. But I
strongly doubt anyone ever abbreviated shithole to s-hole.
I'm mildly curious if this was a story going around, or just an
assumption you made yourself. There are some very strange (and false)
explanations of word histories that make the rounds.
-
Best --- Donna Richoux
Ab Ran
> I'm mildly curious if this was a story going around, or just an
> assumption you made yourself. There are some very strange (and false)
> explanations of word histories that make the rounds.
This was my assumption.
Thanx,
Skitt
"Ian Staples" <ia...@refer.to.sig.au.invalid> wrote in message
news:8qs7ju$ffh$1...@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au...
> I've always assumed yanks say "ass" for "arse" because they
> pronounce it that way.
Say what?
--
Skitt (in SF Bay Area) http://i.am/skitt/
Wayward in Hayward
Charles Riggs
Staples) wrote:
>I've always assumed yanks say "ass" for "arse" because they
>pronounce it that way. (But that leaves me wondering how
>they would say "arse". :-)
They say it as they see it spelled: ass. An American could live out
his entire life and never see the word "arse" in print but those who
do would pronounce it with the r, I would assume. Americans, most of
them, *can* read after all.
Charles Riggs
Donna Richoux
Yes, and if an American person happened to hear a British person say
"arse" (something that they can also spend their lives without
encountering) they would most likely assume that said Brit was saying
"ass" with that broad A that Brits use sometimes instead of /&/, you
know, like "glahss" and "chahnce" and "cahstle." Those words don't have
a UK/US spelling difference.
Whether the vowel in (southern?) British "glass" is truly identical to
the vowel in "arse," I am afraid to think. It's close enough, anyway.
--
Best --- Donna Richoux
N.Mitchum
------
> > > I don't know why Americans
> > > spell arse, ass. But it's definitely just a misspelling of arse.
>
> > misspelling, since everyone pronounces it "ass."
>
> Everyone who? I don't for one, nor do most Australians, or the English.
Exactly. My position (which was *not* intended seriously) would
be no less simpleminded than yours. Nice of you to agree with me.
-----
> I suppose you mean Americans... The only country that holds a "World
> Series" and fails to invite any other nations. Besides, as you
> acknowledge in your other post, arse came first.
>.....
This "World Series" flag is run up the pole so often that it must
be the one thing foreigners know about America . They seem to
take it as prove of something fundamental.
----NM
Mike Page
Richoux) wrote:
>
>Whether the vowel in (southern?) British "glass" is truly identical to
>the vowel in "arse," I am afraid to think. It's close enough, anyway.
I think there's a touch of the rhotic in arse, but not glass.
But whoever wrote 'Eskimo Nell' was happy enough to rhyme them.
Mike Page
Let the ape escape for e-mail
Ferg
N.Mitchum <aj...@lafn.org> wrote in message
news:39D39A...@lafn.org...
> Rill Hoffman wrote:
> ------
> > > > I don't know why Americans
> > > > spell arse, ass. But it's definitely just a
misspelling of arse.
> >
is a
> > > misspelling, since everyone pronounces it "ass."
> >
> > Everyone who? I don't for one, nor do most Australians,
or the English.
>
> Exactly. My position (which was *not* intended seriously)
would
Why would we take an American seriously? What a crazy idea!
> be no less simpleminded than yours. Nice of you to agree
with me.
We agree that Americans are pretty keen on simpleminded
ideas.
> > I suppose you mean Americans... The only country that
holds a "World
> > Series" and fails to invite any other nations. Besides,
as you
> > acknowledge in your other post, arse came first.
> >.....
>
> This "World Series" flag is run up the pole so often that
it must
> be the one thing foreigners know about America . They
seem to
> take it as prove of something fundamental.
Well, it does explain why americans have such a limited
grasp on the real world which involves a number of
continents other than their own one.
Ferg
Charles Riggs <chr...@gofree.indigo.ie> wrote in message
news:9q46tsom2sq9nf4mq...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 27 Sep 2000 07:29:07 GMT,
ia...@refer.to.sig.au.invalid (Ian
> Staples) wrote:
>
> >I've always assumed yanks say "ass" for "arse" because
they
> >pronounce it that way. (But that leaves me wondering how
> >they would say "arse". :-)
>
> They say it as they see it spelled: ass. An American could
live out
> his entire life and never see the word "arse" in print but
those who
> do would pronounce it with the r, I would assume.
Americans, most of
> them, *can* read after all.
The reason the Americans say (and spell) "ass" is because of
their incredibly over-prudish approach to language.
At some stage, some Yank has been too squeamish to use the
real word, and they have employed instead the word "ass"
which really means some kind of donkey, or mule or
something.
barttr
I wouldn't throw stones if I were you. There seem to be enough
Australians who don't have a clue what the difference is between
Holland, the Netherlands and Denmark.
Cheers,
barttr
Jacques Guy
> I don't know why Americans
> spell arse, ass. But it's definitely just a
> misspelling of arse.
It is a phonetic spelling. In British and in
Australian English, the "r" of "arse" is
silent, "ar" being pronounced as "a" in "father".
In American English, the "a" of "father",
which is the "ar" of "arse", is pronounced
like the "a" of "jam". As for "arsehole"
itself, you have the same expression in
German (Arschloch) and in French (trou du
cul), and probably in many other languages
of Europe.
Sandgroper
>
>N.Mitchum <aj...@lafn.org> wrote in message
>news:39D39A...@lafn.org...
>> Rill Hoffman wrote:
>> ------
>> > > > I don't know why Americans
>> > > > spell arse, ass. But it's definitely just a
>misspelling of arse.
>Well, it does explain why americans have such a limited
>grasp on the real world which involves a number of
>continents other than their own one.
The word "asshole" is perhaps came about because it was the term the
yanks used in the movies so that they could get around the yank
censorship laws in the 1940's - 60's
And because of this , all the yanks now use the term "asshole" instead
of the original term "arsehole"
Sandgroper
==========
Remove Quokka for Email
Evan Kirshenbaum
> The reason the Americans say (and spell) "ass" is because of their
> incredibly over-prudish approach to language.
>
> At some stage, some Yank has been too squeamish to use the real
> word, and they have employed instead the word "ass" which really
> means some kind of donkey, or mule or something.
According to Fryer, it went the other way, with the animal's name
becoming at least mildly taboo. The word "donkey" is a relatively
recent (1785, and according to MW "origin unknown") euphemism for the
animal. (Mules are crosses between horses and donkeys, or, more
generally, between any two species.)
"Ass" for "arse" is simply a matter of an identification of the vowel
with that of "glass", etc., in non-rhotic dialects, and the consequent
shift. The original of "arse" was Old English "ærs" or "ears", which
had an /r/. The original of "ass" (the animal) was Old English
"assa".
Fryer lists the "three other old-established English words for this
part of the body" as "bum", "buttocks" (before 1300), and "fundament"
(1297). (The derivation of "bum" from "bottom" (1794) is
"erroneous".)
As to the origin of "asshole" itself, Fryer lists "arse-hole" as
nineteenth century, along with a bunch of others (e.g., "shit-hole",
"bottom-hole", "back passage"). Earlier are "hole" (C. 14), "anus"
(1658), "port-hole" (c. 1660), and "bung(-hole)" (late C. 18). There
are also a bunch of archaic terms: "siege", "fugo", "roby douglas",
"feak", "holloway", "Middlesex", "trill", "(brother) round mouth",
"spice island", "dilberry creek", "stinkhole bay", "wind-mill", and
"wrong door".
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Code should be designed to make it
1501 Page Mill Road, Building 1U |easy to get it right, not to work
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |if you get it right.
Alex Chernavsky
>As to the origin of "asshole" itself, Fryer lists "arse-hole"
>as nineteenth century, along with ... "roby douglas"
Huh? Who he?
--
Alex Chernavsky
al...@astrocyte-design.com
Greybeard
<jg...@alphalink.com.au> wrote:
>Someone wrote
>> I don't know why Americans
>> spell arse, ass. But it's definitely just a
>> misspelling of arse.
>
>
>It is a phonetic spelling. In British and in
>Australian English, the "r" of "arse" is
>silent, "ar" being pronounced as "a" in "father".
>In American English, the "a" of "father",
>which is the "ar" of "arse", is pronounced
>like the "a" of "jam".
Well, no. In my American dialect, the "a" of "father" is quite
distinct from the "a" of "ass" and of "jam". I suppose it's possible
that some Americans somewhere pronounce "father" with the "a" of
"jam", but no one has ever done so in my hearing.
My American Heritage Dictionary (3rd ed.) says that "ass" (with the
meaning under discussion) is derived from Old English "ears" through
Middle English "ars".
The unfortunate part about Americans spelling and pronouncing "ass" as
we do is that we cannot ride or carry loads on asses -- we have to use
donkeys instead. Or burros.
>As for "arsehole"
>itself, you have the same expression in
>German (Arschloch) and in French (trou du
>cul), and probably in many other languages
>of Europe.
Regards,
Greybeard
--
John Estill
Native English speaker (midwestern variety), español al estilo mexicano
Millersburg, Ohio, U.S.A.
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Evan Kirshenbaum wrote, in part:
>
> >As to the origin of "asshole" itself, Fryer lists "arse-hole"
> >as nineteenth century, along with ... "roby douglas"
>
> Huh? Who he?
Absolutely no clue. Fryer annotates it "c. 1780-1850", but gives no
further explanation other than including it in this list of "archaic
terms". The fact that it isn't capitalized (as are things like "John
Thomas", "Little Mary", "Sir Martin Wagstaff", "Master John Thursday",
or "Fanny") would seem to imply that he doesn't derive it from a
particular name, although I see no other obvious etymology.
A Google search turns up nothing but a few hits on people named "Roby
Douglas" or "Douglas Roby".
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |The reason that we don't have
1501 Page Mill Road, Building 1U |"bear-proof" garbage cans in the
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |park is that there is a significant
|overlap in intelligence between the
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |smartest bears and the dumbest
(650)857-7572 |humans.
| Yosemite Park Ranger
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Evan Kirshenbaum <ev...@garrett.hpl.hp.com> wrote in message
> news:v9h7l7p...@garrett.hpl.hp.com...
> > "Alex Chernavsky" <al...@astrocyte-design.com> writes:
> >
> > > Evan Kirshenbaum wrote, in part:
> > >
> > > >As to the origin of "asshole" itself, Fryer lists
> "arse-hole"
> > > >as nineteenth century, along with ... "roby douglas"
> > >
> > > Huh? Who he?
> >
> > Absolutely no clue.
>
> An example of cockney rhyming slang, perhaps?
He probably would have noted it. Also, what would it rhyme with, or,
more to the point, what common phrase would begin with it that would
rhyme with something that meant "anus"?
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Pious Jews have a category of
1501 Page Mill Road, Building 1U |questions that can harmlessly be
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |allowed to go without an answer
|until the Messiah comes. I suspect
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |that this is one of them.
(650)857-7572 | Joseph C. Fineman
Greg
> Australians who don't have a clue what the difference is between
> Holland, the Netherlands and Denmark.
>
One effect of living in a small country is that the citizens generally
take more interest in other nations.
Yanks generally seem to manage to be ignorant of anything outside their
own country and much of what is inside it as well.
Regards,
Greg.P.
Greg
>
> Ferg wrote in message ...
> >
> >news:39D39A...@lafn.org...
> >> Rill Hoffman wrote:
> >> ------
> >> > > > I don't know why Americans
> >> > > > spell arse, ass. But it's definitely just a
> >misspelling of arse.
>
> >grasp on the real world which involves a number of
> >continents other than their own one.
>
> yanks used in the movies so that they could get around the yank
> censorship laws in the 1940's - 60's
>
> And because of this , all the yanks now use the term "asshole" instead
> of the original term "arsehole"
>
So the problem is actually compounded stupidity! That figures.
hed...@my-deja.com
Greg <pro...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> Sandgroper wrote:
[...]
> >
> > The word "asshole" is perhaps came about because it was the term the
> > yanks used in the movies so that they could get around the yank
> > censorship laws in the 1940's - 60's
> >
> > And because of this , all the yanks now use the term "asshole"
instead
> > of the original term "arsehole"
> >
>
> So the problem is actually compounded stupidity! That figures.
>
It may figure, but that doesn't make it true. There were no U.S.
censorship laws during that period which forbade the use of the word
"arse" but not "ass" and there were few, if any, general release films
during that period which included the word "asshole." The reason that
we say "ass" and some other English speakers do not is the same reason
that some English speakers say "al-you-MIN--ee--um and we do not. That
figures too.
Harold
Ferg
barttr <btre...@hetnet.nl> wrote in message
news:39D980C2...@hetnet.nl...
> Ferg wrote:
> >
> > Well, it does explain why americans have such a limited
> > grasp on the real world which involves a number of
> > continents other than their own one.
>
enough
> Australians who don't have a clue what the difference is
between
> Holland, the Netherlands
In *english*, there is no difference between Holland and the
Netherlands.
> and Denmark.
I read that little boo-boo and I assumed it was a simple
error, and not an exhibition of genuine ignorance.
Ferg
<hed...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8rdsp9$od3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> The reason that
> we say "ass" and some other English speakers do not is the
same reason
> that some English speakers say "al-you-MIN--ee--um and we
do not. That
> figures too.
What figures? What other possible way *is* there of
pronouncing 'Aluminium'? How do *you* spell 'Aluminium'?
Ferg
Daniel
Obviously never heard a septic talk of "a-LOOM-in-um" (even though they
spell it the same as the rest of the English speaking world).
Reminds me of a conversation I overheard in a lift today.
"...you are from Russia so English is not your first language ?" (!)
"Yes..."
"That's all right ! I'm from Yorkshire so English isn't my first
language either !"
Cheers
Daniel
Ferg
Daniel <Dan...@nowhere.nohow> wrote in message
news:39DA9C83...@nowhere.nohow...
> Ferg wrote:
> >
> > <hed...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> > news:8rdsp9$od3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> >
> > > The reason that
> > > we say "ass" and some other English speakers do not is
the
> > same reason
> > > that some English speakers say "al-you-MIN--ee--um and
we
> > do not. That
> > > figures too.
> >
> > What figures? What other possible way *is* there of
> > pronouncing 'Aluminium'? How do *you* spell 'Aluminium'?
>
> Obviously never heard a septic talk of "a-LOOM-in-um"
(even though they
> spell it the same as the rest of the English speaking
world).
That's novel!
The Yanks can't say it (too many syllables, obviously), but
they manage to spell it properly! Wonders will never cease!
hed...@my-deja.com
"Ferg" <fergu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>[...]
>
> In *english*, there is no difference between Holland and the
> Netherlands.
>
> > and Denmark.
>
> I read that little boo-boo and I assumed it was a simple
> error, and not an exhibition of genuine ignorance.
>
>
Perhaps not in *english*, but there certainly is in English as well as
in the Netherlands. In English, they don't even rhyme.
hed...@my-deja.com
hed...@my-deja.com
Daniel <Dan...@nowhere.nohow> wrote:
[...]
> >
> > What figures? What other possible way *is* there of
> > pronouncing 'Aluminium'? How do *you* spell 'Aluminium'?
>
> Obviously never heard a septic talk of "a-LOOM-in-um" (even though
they
> spell it the same as the rest of the English speaking world).
Well, no they don't.
[...]
> Cheers
> Daniel
Sandgroper
>
>It may figure, but that doesn't make it true. There were no U.S.
>censorship laws during that period which forbade the use of the word
>"arse" but not "ass" and there were few, if any, general release films
>during that period which included the word "asshole." The reason that
>we say "ass" and some other English speakers do not is the same reason
>that some English speakers say "al-you-MIN--ee--um and we do not. That
>figures too.
Some of the US censorship laws were pretty stupid right up until the
1960's , one particular law was that if there was a bedroom scene with a
male and female , at least one of the actors had to have one foot on the
floor while sitting/laying on the bed.
Another law was on kissing , all a couple was allowed to do was lock
lips and kiss and not move their heads .
With some of these stupid censorship laws , I wouldn't be surprised if
the movie people changed the word "arse" to "ass" just to appease the
prudish censorship whackos.
Charles Riggs
<stev...@Quokka.iinet.net.au> wrote:
>hed...@my-deja.com wrote in message <8rdsp9$od3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>>
>>It may figure, but that doesn't make it true. There were no U.S.
>>censorship laws during that period which forbade the use of the word
>>"arse" but not "ass" and there were few, if any, general release films
>>during that period which included the word "asshole." The reason that
>>we say "ass" and some other English speakers do not is the same reason
>>that some English speakers say "al-you-MIN--ee--um and we do not. That
>>figures too.
>
>
>Some of the US censorship laws were pretty stupid right up until the
>1960's , one particular law was that if there was a bedroom scene with a
>male and female , at least one of the actors had to have one foot on the
>floor while sitting/laying on the bed.
As I understand it, this was not a law but merely a guideline
Hollywood followed to keep their movies out of trouble with
sexually-frustrated critics. Few, if any, movies have ever been
actually censored by the US government.
>Another law was on kissing , all a couple was allowed to do was lock
>lips and kiss and not move their heads .
Not a law, but perhaps another convention. I also understand that
prolonged kissing was taboo in French films even by the time when
nudity of the female, from the waist up at least, was perfectly
accepted in films.
Charles Riggs
Chris Conner
Sandgroper <stev...@Quokka.iinet.net.au> wrote:
>Some of the US censorship laws were pretty stupid right up until the
>1960's , one particular law was that if there was a bedroom scene with a
>male and female , at least one of the actors had to have one foot on the
>floor while sitting/laying on the bed.
>Another law was on kissing , all a couple was allowed to do was lock
>lips and kiss and not move their heads .
You are probably thinking of the Hays Code, which was adopted by
the Motion Picture Assosciation of America in, oh, the 30s, I think. The
Hays Code mostly gave general guidelines for the depiction of sex, drug
use, violence, and so on. This one-foot-on-the-floor rule, if there is any
truth to it at all, was probably either some studio's own rule, or a
convention that developed organically in the trade.
>With some of these stupid censorship laws , I wouldn't be surprised if
>the movie people changed the word "arse" to "ass" just to appease the
>prudish censorship whackos.
I, on the other hand, would be surprised if you could cite a
stupid censorship law, particular to film, that dictated what kind of
language could and could not be used. In the United States, that is.
--
Chris Conner
Sandgroper
>
> You are probably thinking of the Hays Code, which was adopted by
>the Motion Picture Assosciation of America in, oh, the 30s, I think.
The
>Hays Code mostly gave general guidelines for the depiction of sex, drug
>use, violence, and so on. This one-foot-on-the-floor rule, if there is
any
>truth to it at all, was probably either some studio's own rule, or a
>convention that developed organically in the trade.
>
couldn't remember the name.
I though it was actually part of the US Gov. censorship laws , but you
are right , it was actually a code of conduct that lasted right up
until the 1960's and effected TV as well as the movies.
Donna Richoux
>
> You are probably thinking of the Hays Code, which was adopted by
> the Motion Picture Assosciation of America in, oh, the 30s, I think. The
> Hays Code mostly gave general guidelines for the depiction of sex, drug
> use, violence, and so on. This one-foot-on-the-floor rule, if there is any
> truth to it at all, was probably either some studio's own rule, or a
> convention that developed organically in the trade.
>
> stupid censorship law, particular to film, that dictated what kind of
> language could and could not be used. In the United States, that is.
The Hays code, or Production Code, did ban offensive language as well as
behavior. See, for example, the article at:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/cultureshock/beyond/hollywood.html
But as you say, this is not a "law" but an industry policy.
It went into effect in 1930 and lost some force in 1952 when the Supreme
Court ruled in favor of a moviemaker. "The motion picture industry
officially abandoned the Code in 1968 and soon replaced it with the
system of age-based ratings."
I was not able to find an actual list of what words were forbidden.
Another article points out that Mae West came up with her great double
entendres because of the censorship codes.
--
Best wishes --- Donna Richoux
Olivers
>
> "Alex Chernavsky" <al...@astrocyte-design.com> writes:
>
> > Evan Kirshenbaum wrote, in part:
> >
> > >As to the origin of "asshole" itself, Fryer lists "arse-hole"
> > >as nineteenth century, along with ... "roby douglas"
> >
> > Huh? Who he?
>
Roby Wade's lawyer.
hed...@my-deja.com
"Sandgroper" <stev...@Quokka.iinet.net.au> wrote:
> Chris Conner wrote in message
<8retmd$5q4a$1...@nntp1.u.washington.edu>...
> >
> >the Motion Picture Assosciation of America in, oh, the 30s, I think.
> The
> >Hays Code mostly gave general guidelines for the depiction of sex,
drug
> >use, violence, and so on. This one-foot-on-the-floor rule, if there
is
> any
> >truth to it at all, was probably either some studio's own rule, or a
> >convention that developed organically in the trade.
> >
> couldn't remember the name.
>
> I though it was actually part of the US Gov. censorship laws , but you
> are right , it was actually a code of conduct that lasted right up
> until the 1960's and effected TV as well as the movies.
>
> ==========
> Remove Quokka for Email
>
>
So, let's recap.
The use of the word "asshole" in American English (as opposed to
"arsehole" by some other English speakers) was not a result of a
response by American film makers to U.S. censorship laws first because
there were no such laws. It did not result because the film industry
couldn't use "arse" without violating a taboo but could use "ass"
because there was no such taboo. Indeed, if there were any such
language manipulation by the film industry, it would have worked the
other way because all Americans knew the vulgar meaning of the word
"ass" but most would have been nonplussed if exposed to the word
"arse." Finally, I doubt if you can find one instance of a normal,
non-vulgar English word that has been used euphemistically in film and
has therefore become a general taboo word. In other words, the
phenomenon you are asserting is a myth.
Older morality standards as they existed and were applied by the
American film and television industry (and in the case of television and
radio, enforced to some extent by government regulators) may seem quaint
and archaic today. It wasn't so many years ago, I suspect, that the
words "asshole," "bitch," "dildo," and "douche bag" were completely
absent from prime-time television, but I have heard them all in the last
year. On TV, you still won't hear "fuck" and will very rarely hear
"shit." Seems that you rarely if ever see the middle finger gesture but
will see it blurred out from time to time.
I doubt that this restraint in using taboo words is unique to American
entertainment media standards, either. How many English or Australian
general release movies from the 50s used the word "fuck" or the word
"arsehole" or even "root" as a euphemism for "fuck?"
taj
>holds a "World
>> > Series" and fails to invite any other nations. Besides,
I had expected someone to inform this asshole that other nations have been
been invited to the World Series for several years now. In fact, the
Toronto Blue Jays won the World Series in 1992 and 1993. In 1994 the Series
was not played due to fear that if Toronto won it for a third straight time,
they'd keep it in Canada and the Series could never be played again.
Anatoly Vorobey
Jacques Guy <jg...@alphalink.com.au> wrote:
>> I don't know why Americans
>> spell arse, ass. But it's definitely just a
>> misspelling of arse.
>
>It is a phonetic spelling. In British and in
>Australian English, the "r" of "arse" is
>silent, "ar" being pronounced as "a" in "father".
>In American English, the "a" of "father",
>which is the "ar" of "arse", is pronounced
>like the "a" of "jam".
Surely you're not suggesting that Americans generally have the
same vowel in "father" and "jam"!
(I hope you're not, because they don't).
What you seem to be saying is that there was a pronunciation shift which
took [glA.s] to [gl&s], [A.sk] to [&sk] (for some speakers), and
[A.s] to [&s]. It may've been so, but it certainly didn't turn
[fA.-] into [f&-] in "father"!
--
Anatoly Vorobey,
mel...@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/
"Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton
Robert Lieblich
>
> >> > I suppose you mean Americans... The only country that
> >holds a "World
> >> > Series" and fails to invite any other nations. Besides,
>
> I had expected someone to inform this asshole that other nations have been
> been invited to the World Series for several years now. In fact, the
> Toronto Blue Jays won the World Series in 1992 and 1993.
No doubt he thinks Canada (or at least Toronto) is part of the US.
Americans aren't the only ones weak on their geography. There is a
quadrennial world-wide baseball championship, the last edition of which
recently ended in Sydney.[1] Anybody know who won?
> In 1994 the Series
> was not played due to fear that if Toronto won it for a third straight time,
> they'd keep it in Canada and the Series could never be played again.
There hasn't been a real World Series since Mickey Mantle retired. (And
I grew up a Yankee-hater, but facts are facts.) Everything after that
has been imposture.
[1] That's in Australia, for those who don't know.
Skitt
"Sandgroper" <stev...@Quokka.iinet.net.au> wrote in message
news:39dabe80$0$85...@echo-01.iinet.net.au...
>
>
> Some of the US censorship laws were pretty stupid right up until the
> 1960's , one particular law was that if there was a bedroom scene with a
> male and female , at least one of the actors had to have one foot on the
> floor while sitting/laying on the bed.
No, no, there's no laying allowed! Geez! You wanna watch someone getting
laid on prime-time TV? Pervert!
--
Skitt (in SF Bay Area) http://i.am/skitt/
Wayward in Hayward
I'm going to hunt down the people who have strong opinions
on subjects they don't understand. Then I'll bop them with
this cardboard tube. -- Dogbert
Skitt
> Yes , the Hays code was the one that I was thinking of , but I just
> couldn't remember the name.
>
> I though it was actually part of the US Gov. censorship laws , but you
> are right , it was actually a code of conduct that lasted right up
> until the 1960's and effected TV as well as the movies.
So that's what created TV and the movies, eh?
barttr
Pietr Van Den Hoosen Grooven Loosen Noosen wrote:
>
> On Tue, 03 Oct 2000 08:46:25 +0200, barttr <btre...@hetnet.nl> said:
>
> >Ferg wrote:
> >>
> >> N.Mitchum <aj...@lafn.org> wrote in message
> >> news:39D39A...@lafn.org...
> >> > Rill Hoffman wrote:
> >> > ------
> >> > > > > I don't know why Americans
> >> > > > > spell arse, ass. But it's definitely just a
> >> misspelling of arse.
> >> > >
> >> > > > Try "variant." I could just as well claim that "arse"
> >> is a
> >> > > > misspelling, since everyone pronounces it "ass."
> >> > >
> >> > > Everyone who? I don't for one, nor do most Australians,
> >> or the English.
> >> > >.....
> >> >
> >> > Exactly. My position (which was *not* intended seriously)
> >> would
> >>
> >> Why would we take an American seriously? What a crazy idea!
> >>
> >> > be no less simpleminded than yours. Nice of you to agree
> >> with me.
> >>
> >> We agree that Americans are pretty keen on simpleminded
> >> ideas.
> >>
> >> > > I suppose you mean Americans... The only country that
> >> holds a "World
> >> > > Series" and fails to invite any other nations. Besides,
> >> as you
> >> > > acknowledge in your other post, arse came first.
> >> > >.....
> >> >
> >> > This "World Series" flag is run up the pole so often that
> >> it must
> >> > be the one thing foreigners know about America . They
> >> seem to
> >> > take it as prove of something fundamental.
> >>
> >> Well, it does explain why americans have such a limited
> >> grasp on the real world which involves a number of
> >> continents other than their own one.
> >
> >I wouldn't throw stones if I were you. There seem to be enough
> >Australians who don't have a clue what the difference is between
> >Holland, the Netherlands and Denmark.
> >
> >Cheers,
> >
> >barttr
>
> Or Pays Bas for that matter.
Congratulations. You have just earned another 5 points, my learned
friend. For the bonus round, you can tell me what they are called in Chinese.
> Do you have a point to make, ...
No, not really. Do you? Actually, I was just playing Bait-a-Twit.
> ...or are you just waiting around for a dyke
> to stick your finger in, Hans Van Den Brinker Clogs?
Whatever. Have a nice day, mate.
Cheers,
barttr
barttr
Ferg wrote:
>
> barttr <btre...@hetnet.nl> wrote in message
> news:39D980C2...@hetnet.nl...
> > Ferg wrote:
> > >
> > > Well, it does explain why americans have such a limited
> > > grasp on the real world which involves a number of
> > > continents other than their own one.
> >
> > I wouldn't throw stones if I were you. There seem to be
> enough
> > Australians who don't have a clue what the difference is
> between
> > Holland, the Netherlands
>
> In *english*, there is no difference between Holland and the
> Netherlands.
Holland has seven letters, Netherlands eleven. :-)
You're right though, the two terms are used interchangeably in the
*English* speaking world.
> > and Denmark.
>
> I read that little boo-boo and I assumed it was a simple
> error, and not an exhibition of genuine ignorance.
Actually, I was referring to both Agora's "boo-boo"(?) and the "Great
news, Netherlands votes against Globalisation" thead which left a few
posters rather confused.
Cheers,
barttr
Brian J Goggin
<lieb...@erols.com> wrote:
>No doubt he thinks Canada (or at least Toronto) is part of the US.
>Americans aren't the only ones weak on their geography. There is a
>quadrennial world-wide baseball championship, the last edition of which
>recently ended in Sydney.[1] Anybody know who won?
[...]
>[1] That's in Australia, for those who don't know.
We understand that Australia is a country that knows how to run large
sporting events, and that its recent games were a welcome relief after
the last lot, which were conducted in a soft drinks factory.
bjg
Neil Gerace
Anatoly Vorobey <mel...@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:slrn8tmm1l....@happy.checkpoint.com...
Jacques might have meant the "a" of the British/Australian "father".
> What you seem to be saying is that there was a pronunciation shift which
> took [glA.s] to [gl&s], [A.sk] to [&sk] (for some speakers), and
> [A.s] to [&s].
I personally don't think there was any shift. IMHO Americans got their
pronunciation not from the part of England that says [A.sk] [glA.s] [A.s]
but from somewhere else in the British Isles eg Ireland.
cheers
Neil
Peter Mackay
> Holland has seven letters, Netherlands eleven. :-)
> You're right though, the two terms are used interchangeably in the
> *English* speaking world.
Hence, double Dutch.
Keating married Annita, a stewardess on a KLM flight, so overjoyed was he
to leave Australia.
--
Cheers! Peter Mackay
peter....@bigpond.com
personal opinion only
Greg
>
> In article <39DA54DF...@ihug.co.nz>,
> Greg <pro...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> > Sandgroper wrote:
> [...]
> > >
> > > The word "asshole" is perhaps came about because it was the term the
> > > yanks used in the movies so that they could get around the yank
> > > censorship laws in the 1940's - 60's
> > >
> > > And because of this , all the yanks now use the term "asshole"
> instead
> > > of the original term "arsehole"
> > >
> >
> > So the problem is actually compounded stupidity! That figures.
> >
>
> It may figure, but that doesn't make it true. There were no U.S.
> censorship laws during that period which forbade the use of the word
> "arse" but not "ass" and there were few, if any, general release films
> during that period which included the word "asshole." The reason that
> we say "ass" and some other English speakers do not is the same reason
> that some English speakers say "al-you-MIN--ee--um and we do not. That
> figures too.
>
>
The reason some of us do not use the word "ass" when we mean "arse" is
much more simple - the word "ass" is already used to denote the four
legged quadruped known as an ass. To use a word which already has a
specific meaning to represent something else which already has a (or
several) specific words representing, it is just idiotic!
Aluminium - "al-You-min-(ee)um"
Medicine - "Med-(ee)-sin"
Etc.
You yanks obviously have difficulties with pronouncing vowels!
(oh, and consonants, as in arse)
(which leaves...)
Greg.P.
Greg
>
> >> > I suppose you mean Americans... The only country that
> >holds a "World
> >> > Series" and fails to invite any other nations. Besides,
>
> been invited to the World Series for several years now. In fact, the
> was not played due to fear that if Toronto won it for a third straight time,
> they'd keep it in Canada and the Series could never be played again.
What you mean is that if the Toronto team won the series for the third
time, the Series really would become the "World Series" and no longer be
the "US (World) Series".
Greg
>
> Ferg wrote:
> >
> > barttr <btre...@hetnet.nl> wrote in message
> > news:39D980C2...@hetnet.nl...
> > > Ferg wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Well, it does explain why americans have such a limited
> > > > grasp on the real world which involves a number of
> > > > continents other than their own one.
> > >
> > > I wouldn't throw stones if I were you. There seem to be
> > enough
> > > Australians who don't have a clue what the difference is
> > between
> > > Holland, the Netherlands
> >
> > In *english*, there is no difference between Holland and the
> > Netherlands.
>
> You're right though, the two terms are used interchangeably in the
> *English* speaking world.
>
Holland was the most powerful of the Dutch States when England and the
Netherlands were in competition/at war.
The use of "Holland" to mean the whole of the Netherlands is a bit like
using "Canada" to represent the whole of North America - sure it is the
only bit worth considering, but it could make the other states fell left
out.
Regards,
Greg.P.
Ferg
>
>
> Ferg wrote:
> >
> > barttr <btre...@hetnet.nl> wrote in message
> > news:39D980C2...@hetnet.nl...
> > > Ferg wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Well, it does explain why americans have such a
limited
> > > > grasp on the real world which involves a number of
> > > > continents other than their own one.
> > >
> > > I wouldn't throw stones if I were you. There seem to
be
> > enough
> > > Australians who don't have a clue what the difference
is
> > between
> > > Holland, the Netherlands
> >
> > In *english*, there is no difference between Holland and
the
> > Netherlands.
>
> Holland has seven letters, Netherlands eleven. :-)
> You're right though, the two terms are used
interchangeably in the
> *English* speaking world.
>
> >
> > I read that little boo-boo and I assumed it was a simple
> > error, and not an exhibition of genuine ignorance.
>
> Actually, I was referring to both Agora's "boo-boo"(?) and
the "Great
> news, Netherlands votes against Globalisation" thead which
left a few
> posters rather confused.
I saw that thread and my fear that somebody might really be
confused between Denmark & Holland compelled me to ignore
the error.
Ferg
Evan Kirshenbaum <ev...@garrett.hpl.hp.com> wrote in message
news:v9hog11...@garrett.hpl.hp.com...
> "Ferg" <fergu...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
> > Evan Kirshenbaum <ev...@garrett.hpl.hp.com> wrote in
message
> > news:v9h7l7p...@garrett.hpl.hp.com...
> > > "Alex Chernavsky" <al...@astrocyte-design.com> writes:
> > >
> > > > Evan Kirshenbaum wrote, in part:
> > > >
> > > > >As to the origin of "asshole" itself, Fryer lists
> > "arse-hole"
> > > > >as nineteenth century, along with ... "roby
douglas"
> > > >
> > > > Huh? Who he?
> > >
> > > Absolutely no clue.
> >
>
> He probably would have noted it. Also, what would it
rhyme with, or,
> more to the point, what common phrase would begin with it
that would
> rhyme with something that meant "anus"?
I recently watched Lock, Stock, and Two Smoking Barrels a
couple of times, and a lot of that cockney slang is far from
obvious.
roby dougl-arse could easily have been some east london
expression.
Maybe a londoner could help out?
Jacques Guy
>
> Anatoly Vorobey <mel...@pobox.com> wrote in message
> news:slrn8tmm1l....@happy.checkpoint.com...
>
> Jacques might have meant the "a" of the British/Australian "father".
Yes, that's what I meant. And the "a" of "jam" is long,
at least in the Australian English I hear about me. Just
like the "a" of "past" or "castle" in what I believe
is American English (but _which_ American English?),
and in some varieties of Australian English.
hed...@my-deja.com
Greg <pro...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>[...] To use a word which already has a
> specific meaning to represent something else which already has a (or
> several) specific words representing, it is just idiotic!
>
> Greg.P.
>
Which says what about the way that some English speakers use the word
"root?"
Donna Richoux
> > > > > Evan Kirshenbaum wrote, in part:
> > > > >
> > > > > >As to the origin of "asshole" itself, Fryer lists
> > > "arse-hole"
> > > > > >as nineteenth century, along with ... "roby
> douglas"
[snip]
>
> roby dougl-arse could easily have been some east london
> expression.
>
> Maybe a londoner could help out?
It's in the _1811 Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue_, though there's not
much clue as to origin. Every entry gives initial caps to each word.
Look at this definition:
Roby Douglass, with one eye and a stinking breath. The breech.
I had to look up in another dictionary to verify that "breech" is
another word for "buttocks."
Who knows whether the rest was just the dictionary-maker's whimsy, or
whether this personification was part of an old joke or bawdy song or
whatever.
--
Best --- Donna Richoux
phx...@home.com
Here, we often call ignoring errors 'ferging'. In fact, those who go
through life in constant error are often renamed 'ferg'. When we're not
laughing at them, we often throw small rocks at them and hit them with
sticks.
phx...@home.com
Ferg wrote:
>
> Daniel <Dan...@nowhere.nohow> wrote in message
> news:39DA9C83...@nowhere.nohow...
> > Ferg wrote:
> > >
> > > <hed...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> > > news:8rdsp9$od3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > >
> > > > The reason that
> > > > we say "ass" and some other English speakers do not is
> the
> > > same reason
> > > > that some English speakers say "al-you-MIN--ee--um and
> we
> > > do not. That
> > > > figures too.
> > >
> > > What figures? What other possible way *is* there of
> > > pronouncing 'Aluminium'? How do *you* spell 'Aluminium'?
> >
> > Obviously never heard a septic talk of "a-LOOM-in-um"
> (even though they
> > spell it the same as the rest of the English speaking
> world).
>
> That's novel!
>
> The Yanks can't say it (too many syllables, obviously), but
> they manage to spell it properly! Wonders will never cease!
You dolts just stand in line to prove your stupidity, innit? First one
babbles crap, then another swears to it! Read the following, and learn
the proper way to spell a simple word. There's no need for you to go
through life embarrassing yourselves. Sheesh!
From The Elements (22Oct97) (elements)
aluminum Symbol: Al Atomic number: 13 Atomic weight: 26.9815
Silvery-white lustrous metallic element of group 3 of the
periodic table. Highly reactive but protected by a thin transparent
layer of the oxide which quickly forms in air. There are many
alloys of aluminum, as well as a good number of industrial uses. Makes
up 8.1% of the Earth's crust, by weight. Isolated in
1825 by H.C. Oersted.
phx...@home.com
hed...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> In article <A5wC5.33$AX4....@news0.optus.net.au>,
> "Ferg" <fergu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > <hed...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> > news:8rdsp9$od3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> >
> > > The reason that
> > > we say "ass" and some other English speakers do not is the
> > same reason
> > > that some English speakers say "al-you-MIN--ee--um and we
> > do not. That
> > > figures too.
> >
> > What figures? What other possible way *is* there of
> > pronouncing 'Aluminium'? How do *you* spell 'Aluminium'?
> >
> >
>
> I don't.
>
> Harold
Well, how would you spell 'aluminiumiumiumiumiumiumiuminumumumumumumum'?
phx...@home.com
The word has always been 'asshole'. Never trust spelling or
pronunciations recommended by anyone can't pronounce 'worcestershire',
or 'cholmondely'.
phx...@home.com
> general release movies from the 50s used the word "fuck" or the word
> "arsehole" or even "root" as a euphemism for "fuck?"
You want fuckheadedness? Ask a filthy engle how long "Bloody" has been
used in their movies....
barttr
"phx...@home.com" wrote:
[snip the rest]
>
> You dolts just stand in line to prove your stupidity, innit? First one
> babbles crap, then another swears to it! Read the following, and learn
> the proper way to spell a simple word. There's no need for you to go
> through life embarrassing yourselves. Sheesh!
Seems like you've found an appropriately named thread to land in.
Self-identification?
> From The Elements (22Oct97) (elements)
>
> aluminum Symbol: Al Atomic number: 13 Atomic weight: 26.9815
> Silvery-white lustrous metallic element of group 3 of the
> periodic table. Highly reactive but protected by a thin transparent
> layer of the oxide which quickly forms in air. There are many
> alloys of aluminum, as well as a good number of industrial uses. Makes
> up 8.1% of the Earth's crust, by weight. Isolated in
> 1825 by H.C. Oersted.
Thanks for the tip though.
Cheers,
barttr
Robert Lieblich
> > > What figures? What other possible way *is* there of
> > > pronouncing 'Aluminium'? How do *you* spell 'Aluminium'?
> > I don't.
> Well, how would you spell 'aluminiumiumiumiumiumiumiuminumumumumumumum'?
I'm not sure about the spelling, but I pronounce it "Bernard."
phx...@home.com
Greg wrote:
>
> phx...@home.com wrote:
> >
> > The word has always been 'asshole'.
>
> Unfortunately for confused yanks, the word "asshole" has always meant "a
> hole where one keeps ones ass".
You never weary of showing your ass, do you, slowboy? See below-
Hypertext Webster Gateway: "asshole"
From WordNet (r) 1.6 (wn)
asshole n 1: (obscene) insulting terms of address [syn: {bastard},
{cocksucker}, {shit}, {mother fucker}, {motherfucker},
{mother}, {prick}, {son of a bitch}, {SOB}] 2: excretory opening at the
end of the alimentary canal [syn: {anus}
>
> > Never trust spelling or
> > pronunciations recommended by anyone can't pronounce 'worcestershire',
> > or 'cholmondely'.
>
> Nor "Aluminium", "Arkansas" and "Sioux".
Bravely waving your bared ass to the world again, you mention one word
not used here at all, the next a couple of french words absorbed into
our language by way of The Melting Pot.
Is there no end to your persistent need to show as many as possible how
stupid you can be?
hed...@my-deja.com
Thank you for clearing that up for me, Robert. I appreciate your
response immensely.
hed...@my-deja.com
Greg <pro...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> "talkies.
>
And exactly how "eary" were they?
Harold (normally wouldn't pick up on a typo, but this one is just too
cool)
Evan Kirshenbaum
> phx...@home.com wrote:
> >
> > How many English or Australian
> > > general release movies from the 50s used the word "fuck" or the
> > > word "arsehole" or even "root" as a euphemism for "fuck?"
> >
> > You want fuckheadedness? Ask a filthy engle how long "Bloody" has
> > been used in their movies....
>
> I can remember "Bloody" being used in UK war movies from the eariest
> "talkies.
I can't comment on movies, but Fryer writes that following Shaw's 1912
_Pygmalion_, "it was not till 1935 that the word was heard again on
the stage, in a play by Noel Coward". He dates "the virtual end of
the taboo" to 1941, but notes a bit of official censorship based on
the word (by the Post Office) as late as 1962 (the year before his
book was published).
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |On a scale of one to ten...
1501 Page Mill Road, Building 1U |it sucked.
Palo Alto, CA 94304
Greg
Unfortunately for confused yanks, the word "asshole" has always meant "a
hole where one keeps ones ass".
> Never trust spelling or
Greg
Ferg
<phx...@home.com> wrote in message
news:39DCBCF6...@home.com...
>
>
> Ferg wrote:
> >
> > Daniel <Dan...@nowhere.nohow> wrote in message
> > news:39DA9C83...@nowhere.nohow...
> > > >
> > > > <hed...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:8rdsp9$od3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > > >
> > > > > The reason that
> > > > > we say "ass" and some other English speakers do
not is
> > the
> > > > same reason
> > > > > that some English speakers say "al-you-MIN--ee--um
and
> > we
> > > > do not. That
> > > > > figures too.
> > > >
> > > > pronouncing 'Aluminium'? How do *you* spell
'Aluminium'?
> > >
> > (even though they
> > > spell it the same as the rest of the English speaking
> > world).
> >
> > That's novel!
> >
> > The Yanks can't say it (too many syllables, obviously),
but
> > they manage to spell it properly! Wonders will never
cease!
>
innit? First one
> babbles crap, then another swears to it! Read the
following, and learn
> the proper way to spell a simple word. There's no need
for you to go
> through life embarrassing yourselves. Sheesh!
>
>
>
> aluminum Symbol: Al Atomic number: 13 Atomic weight:
26.9815
You seem to have inadvertantly included a typo in the very
word in question.
Ferg
<phx...@home.com> wrote in message
news:39DCECEC...@home.com...
>
>
> Greg wrote:
> >
> > phx...@home.com wrote:
> > >
>
> >
> > > Never trust spelling or
> > > pronunciations recommended by anyone can't pronounce
'worcestershire',
> > > or 'cholmondely'.
> >
> > Nor "Aluminium", "Arkansas" and "Sioux".
>
> Bravely waving your bared ass to the world again, you
mention one word
> not used here at all, the next a couple of french words
absorbed into
> our language by way of The Melting Pot.
Talking of absorption, I was interested to read a recent
report from the American Journal of Medicine which reported
that the instance of obesity has gone up by 60% in the last
decade.
Greg
>
> Greg wrote:
> >
> > phx...@home.com wrote:
> > >
> > > The word has always been 'asshole'.
> >
> > Unfortunately for confused yanks, the word "asshole" has always meant "a
> > hole where one keeps ones ass".
>
>
> Hypertext Webster Gateway: "asshole"
>
> From WordNet (r) 1.6 (wn)
>
> asshole n 1: (obscene) insulting terms of address [syn: {bastard},
> {cocksucker}, {shit}, {mother fucker}, {motherfucker},
> {mother}, {prick}, {son of a bitch}, {SOB}] 2: excretory opening at the
> end of the alimentary canal [syn: {anus}
>
I guess Webster has to catalogue verbal stupidity when it emulates from
yankie land.
I consider it to be particularly stupid to use a well defined and
understood word for another purpose which already has numerous words
assigned. I can well understand that you can easily accept such a
practice.
> >
> > > Never trust spelling or
> > > pronunciations recommended by anyone can't pronounce 'worcestershire',
> > > or 'cholmondely'.
> >
> > Nor "Aluminium", "Arkansas" and "Sioux".
>
> Bravely waving your bared ass to the world again, you mention one word
> not used here at all, the next a couple of french words absorbed into
> our language by way of The Melting Pot.
>
You're not keeping up there Phuxey - Aluminium has been mentioned in
this thread numerous times in the last couple of days by others.
The two words derived from French were mentioned to show that you can
still pronounce words much as they were intended, even though the
spelling doesn't match your pronounciation.
> Is there no end to your persistent need to show as many as possible how
> stupid you can be?
No! What's your excuse?
Regards,
Greg.
hed...@my-deja.com
"Ferg" <fergu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>[...]
> ~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> You seem to have inadvertantly included a typo in the very
> word in question.
>
>
Wrong again. The American spelling is actually older than the other
spelling.
Harold
Greg
> _Pygmalion_, "it was not till 1935 that the word was heard again on
> the stage, in a play by Noel Coward". He dates "the virtual end of
> the taboo" to 1941, but notes a bit of official censorship based on
> the word (by the Post Office) as late as 1962 (the year before his
> book was published).
I wasn't alive in 1912/1935/1941. Was the word "Bloody" in common usage
as an expletive in Britain before WWII? I rather doubt that it was,
perhaps with the exception of working class males.
phx...@home.com
It's true. Our Limitless Affluence & Plenty, combined with our ease in
obtaining same, have indeed resulted in our plumpness admired by all the
half-starved citizens of the rest of the world, where not only <what's>
for dinner is a question, but even <whether>. Filthy engleland, for
instance, where 1/3 of all children are malnourished, have many grownups
whose ribs can be counted through their shirts....
hed...@my-deja.com
"Ferg" <fergu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
[...]
>
> Talking of absorption, I was interested to read a recent
> report from the American Journal of Medicine which reported
> that the instance of obesity has gone up by 60% in the last
> decade.
>
>
You probably mean "Journal of the American Medical Association" and
I assume that you mean "incidence." 60% sounds about right to me.
Greg
About 80% of the Olympic athletes have physiques where all the ribs can
be counted through their shirts - (including the women) Are you
suggesting those individuals are unhealthy?
Regards,
Greg.P.
GrapeApe
>laid on prime-time TV? Pervert!
No Lie?
Peter Lawrence
>
> Ferg wrote:.
.
.
> > In *english*, there is no difference between Holland and the
> > Netherlands.
>
> Holland has seven letters, Netherlands eleven. :-)
> You're right though, the two terms are used interchangeably in the
> *English* speaking world.
No. "The netherlands" is just a geographic expression, a quaint way of saying
"the low countries", i.e. Holland AND Belgium. It suits a Dutch romantic
and irredentist streak to say "there is no such place as Belgium" though, and
this may be why they don't have a problem with the way the confusion has been
gaining ground in English.
WHILE Holland (to the Dutch) only refers to part of that country, in English
it is the whole country - it's a different word, in that it is in a different
language, even though it's spelled the same. It's not as obvious as the way
Switzerland doesn't mean "Schweiz" though, even though few of us now know the
English name of the country comes from just one canton of it. PML.
--
GST+NPT=JOBS
I.e., a Goods and Services Tax (or almost any other broad based production
tax), with a Negative Payroll Tax, promotes employment.
See http://users.netlink.com.au/~peterl/publicns.html#AFRLET2 and the other
items on that page for some reasons why.
Matti Lamprhey
> Greg <pro...@ihug.co.nz> writes:
> >
> > I can remember "Bloody" being used in UK war movies from the eariest
> > "talkies.
>
> _Pygmalion_, "it was not till 1935 that the word was heard again on
> the stage, in a play by Noel Coward". He dates "the virtual end of
> the taboo" to 1941, but notes a bit of official censorship based on
> the word (by the Post Office) as late as 1962 (the year before his
> book was published).
Are there no "bloody"s in Shakespeare then? Or was Fryer talking about a
particular usage of the word?
Matti
Olivers
>
>
> About 80% of the Olympic athletes have physiques where all the ribs can
> be counted through their shirts - (including the women) Are you
> suggesting those individuals are unhealthy?
>
...in many cases, yes, the proof being in the pudding, an amazing
propensity for former "Olympic" athletes to succumb to conditions
exaccerbated by their prior training regimen/dietary habits. The legend
of marathon runners living longer ain't quite true (although they may be
better off than wrestlers and weight lifters).....
....never made the Olympics, but my knees and one hip act like they went
to several.
hed...@my-deja.com
Greg <pro...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>
> I guess Webster has to catalogue verbal stupidity when it emulates
from
> yankie land.
> I consider it to be particularly stupid to use a well defined and
> understood word for another purpose which already has numerous words
> assigned. I can well understand that you can easily accept such a
> practice.
[...]
>
> Regards,
> Greg.
>
Perhaps you are referring to uses of words such as "emulate" when the
perfectly good word "emanate" already exists for the meaning intended.
Of course, dictionary compilers in "yankie land" can safely ignore this
particular example.
You have unwittingly, so it seems, stumbled upon a truth. That is,
dictionaries are intended to represent the language as it is used. If
the use of the word "emulate" when "emanate" is intended becomes
sufficiently widespread, that use will be duly noted in dictionaries.
Harold (Mrs. Malaprop would be proud of you)
Donna Richoux
[snip]
>
> No. "The netherlands" is just a geographic expression, a quaint way of saying
> "the low countries", i.e. Holland AND Belgium. It suits a Dutch romantic
> and irredentist streak to say "there is no such place as Belgium" though, and
> this may be why they don't have a problem with the way the confusion has been
> gaining ground in English.
[snip]
The British Foreign Office lists the country as "Netherlands." See
http://www.fco.gov.uk/news/dynpage.asp?Page=10179&Theme=19
The (London) Times Style Guide,
http://www.the-times.co.uk/styleguide/
says, under "Holland":
"now use The Netherlands for all contexts except sports teams,
historical uses, or when referring to the provinces of North and South
Holland. The adjective is Dutch."
--
Best --- Donna Richoux
(An American living in the Netherlands)
Evan Kirshenbaum
> In article <BV9D5.55$Rk4....@news0.optus.net.au>,
> "Ferg" <fergu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> [...]
> >
> > Talking of absorption, I was interested to read a recent
> > report from the American Journal of Medicine which reported
> > that the instance of obesity has gone up by 60% in the last
> > decade.
>
> You probably mean "Journal of the American Medical Association" and
> I assume that you mean "incidence." 60% sounds about right to me.
Of course, by itself, the statistic is meaningless. For all we know
it could be that there had been 100 obese people in the country and
now there are 160.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |If all else fails, embarrass the
1501 Page Mill Road, Building 1U |industry into doing the right
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |thing.
| Dean Thompson
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
Evan Kirshenbaum
I'm at home and my copy of Fryer is at work, but I believe that it's
use as an expletive dates back to the early nineteenth or late
eighteenth century, perhaps earlier. (I think one of his examples of
"a bloody cold day" goes back to Swift, but I don't believe that it
became taboo until sometime later.) In any case, the fuss about
Shaw's _Pygmalion_ was that the word was actually going to be used on
the stage for the first time, and it caused quite a stir indeed. I
believe that the first use in a novel was only a year or two prior.
Fryer cites numerous examples of the word's replacement by things like
"blooming" and "blasted" (and "b." and "b-----") as well as the
replacement of the literal sense by things like "ensanguinated" from
the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |The purpose of writing is to inflate
1501 Page Mill Road, Building 1U |weak ideas, obscure poor reasoning,
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |and inhibit clarity. With a little
|practice, writing can be an
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |intimidating and impenetrable fog!
(650)857-7572 | Calvin
Evan Kirshenbaum
> "Evan Kirshenbaum" <ev...@garrett.hpl.hp.com> wrote...
> > Greg <pro...@ihug.co.nz> writes:
> > >
> > > I can remember "Bloody" being used in UK war movies from the eariest
> > > "talkies.
> >
> > I can't comment on movies, but Fryer writes that following Shaw's 1912
> > _Pygmalion_, "it was not till 1935 that the word was heard again on
> > the stage, in a play by Noel Coward". He dates "the virtual end of
> > the taboo" to 1941, but notes a bit of official censorship based on
> > the word (by the Post Office) as late as 1962 (the year before his
> > book was published).
>
> Are there no "bloody"s in Shakespeare then? Or was Fryer talking
> about a particular usage of the word?
There are 211 uses of the word, but a cursory look through the list
suggests that they all appear to have at least a metaphorical
connection with actual blood rather than the general (and vulgar)
intensifier that the word later became in the UK (which was, indeed,
what Fryer was talking about). Of course, in Shakespeare's time, the
word didn't have the other reading, so some of the lines he wrote
sound very different to modern audiences, and many of them would not
have been acceptable in the late nineteenth or early twentieth
centuries, when even newspapers even avoided reporting of "bloody
battles".
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |_Bauplan_ is just the German word
1501 Page Mill Road, Building 1U |for blueprint. Typically, one
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |switches languages to indicate
|profundity.
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com | Richard Dawkins
(650)857-7572
Skitt
"Ferg" <fergu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:KT9D5.54$Rk4....@news0.optus.net.au...
>
> You seem to have inadvertantly included a typo in the very
> word in question.
Tee-hee. So have you in the above. No one escapes the sharp teeth of
Skitt's law. It strikes even when someone attempts to correct a nonexistent
error.
--
Skitt (in SF Bay Area) http://i.am/skitt/
Wayward in Hayward
phx...@home.com
Peter Mackay wrote:
>
> In article <39DE82...@netlink.com.au>, pet...@netlink.com.au says...
> > WHILE Holland (to the Dutch) only refers to part of that country, in English
> > it is the whole country - it's a different word, in that it is in a different
> > language, even though it's spelled the same. It's not as obvious as the way
> > Switzerland doesn't mean "Schweiz" though, even though few of us now know the
> > English name of the country comes from just one canton of it. PML.
>
> This must be why Holland has "Nederland" on its stamps and coins, eh?
Face it - peons don't know the proper names of their own countries.
Filthy engles are just as bad, even if they're only wannabe peons.
Nobody gives a fuck, anyway, so call yourself whatever you want. It
just doesn't matter.
Greybeard
On Fri, 06 Oct 2000 08:16:54 -0500, Olivers <ol...@calpha.com> wrote:
>Greg wrote:
>> About 80% of the Olympic athletes have physiques where all the ribs can
>> be counted through their shirts - (including the women) Are you
>> suggesting those individuals are unhealthy?
>>
>...in many cases, yes, the proof being in the pudding, an amazing
>propensity for former "Olympic" athletes to succumb to conditions
>exaccerbated by their prior training regimen/dietary habits. The legend
>of marathon runners living longer ain't quite true (although they may be
>better off than wrestlers and weight lifters).....
I've been hearing recently that "the proof is in the pudding", and it
irks and puzzles me.
I speculate that it derives from the maxim I learned as a child: "The
proof of the pudding is in the eating." This, too, puzzled me when I
was a young sprat, but I eventually figured out what it meant: that,
once you have eaten of a pudding, you can judge whether or not it is
good. Other, preliminary, tests are inconclusive.
Is this what "The proof is in the pudding" means? If so, how does it
mean it?
I visualize a detective, perhaps wearing a deerstalker cap, carefully
spooning out pudding from a large pot, looking for the elusive proof
that will solve the case. A pistol, perhaps, with incriminating
fingerprints, which the perpetrator attempted to hide in the pudding
as he fled through the kitchen.
Puzzled regards,
Greybeard
--
John Estill
Native English speaker (midwestern variety), español al estilo mexicano
Millersburg, Ohio, U.S.A.
Alex Chernavsky
>I've been hearing recently that "the proof is in the pudding",
>and it irks and puzzles me.
The Word Detective mentioned this subject in a column (excerpt below):
====Begin quote====
..."the proof of the pudding" is actually closer to the original form of the
proverb in question. The entire phrase is "the proof of the pudding is in
the eating," meaning that the true value or quality of a thing can only be
judged when it is put to use. ("Proof" in this context means "the act of
testing," rather than our more common "conclusive evidence" sense.) "The
proof of the pudding is in the eating" dates back to around 1600, and is
more often heard in the United Kingdom than the U.S., probably because
puddings of various kinds occupy a more prominent place on the dinner table
there.
"The proof is in the pudding," a fairly common mutation of the proverb, does
make a certain amount of sense, i.e., that the final product, not the
recipe, is what counts. But personally, I can't shake the feeling that "the
proof is in the pudding" would make an excellent last line for a Sherlock
Holmes mystery.
http://www.word-detective.com/081100.html#proofpudding
====End quote====
--
Alex Chernavsky
al...@astrocyte-design.com
Rowan Dingle
>hed...@my-deja.com writes:
>> In article <BV9D5.55$Rk4....@news0.optus.net.au>,
>> "Ferg" <fergu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> > Talking of absorption, I was interested to read a recent
>> > report from the American Journal of Medicine which reported
>> > that the instance of obesity has gone up by 60% in the last
>> > decade.
>>
>> You probably mean "Journal of the American Medical Association" and
>> I assume that you mean "incidence." 60% sounds about right to me.
>
>Of course, by itself, the statistic is meaningless. For all we know
>it could be that there had been 100 obese people in the country and
>now there are 160.
And if there are now 160 obese Americans nationwide, 11.4 of them (say
eleven whole fatties and one giant, dimpled, free-ranging buttock) are
now dollar millionaires, because it seems that one in every 14 US
households is now worth at least a million US dollars.
I've always liked Americans. Fat but fair, that's what I've always said.
And Christmas is coming up soon too. God bless America!
--
Rowan Dingle
(E-mail for bank account details. Serrano ham also welcome - but no fresh meat
please: postal service erratic.)