hid/hidden
Yooseph
I have question: where and in what cases I can use either of the verb
form 'hid' or 'hidden' as past parciple of 'hide'?
* I have hid.
* I have hidden.
Which form is preferred and why?
--
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yooseph&gazeta,pl,nospam
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Dominic Bojarski
> Hi!
> I have question: where and in what cases I can use either of the verb
> form 'hid' or 'hidden' as past parciple of 'hide'?
>
> * I have hid.
> * I have hidden.
>
> Which form is preferred and why?
>
"Hidden" is strongly preferred by most educated English speakers. I
was surprised to see that dictionaries mention "hid" as a possible
alternative. It sounds substandard or dialectical to me, and I suspect
that it would to most speakers.
Dominic Bojarski
Donna Richoux
When Bilbo plays the riddle-game with Gollum in "The Hobbit," one of the
riddles is:
A box without hinges, key, or lid,
Yet golden treasure inside is hid.
That's a memorable case of "hid" instead of "hidden."
Google has:
"i've hidden" 52,100
"i've hid" 762 Ratio 68:1
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
Yooseph
<news:1i0l7r4.13gft8g7jbo2bN%tr...@euronet.nl> tr...@euronet.nl (Donna
Richoux) napisał(a):
> When Bilbo plays the riddle-game with Gollum in "The Hobbit," one
> of the riddles is:
>
> A box without hinges, key, or lid,
> Yet golden treasure inside is hid.
>
> That's a memorable case of "hid" instead of "hidden."
>
Well, could you tell me why in this stanza there aren't items like:
has, have 's or 've?
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yooseph&gazeta,pl,nospam
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Roland Hutchinson
> Dnia N 01 lip 2007 19:59:35 w
> <news:1i0l7r4.13gft8g7jbo2bN%tr...@euronet.nl> tr...@euronet.nl (Donna
> Richoux) napisa³(a):
>
>
>> When Bilbo plays the riddle-game with Gollum in "The Hobbit," one
>> of the riddles is:
>>
>> A box without hinges, key, or lid,
>> Yet golden treasure inside is hid.
>>
>> That's a memorable case of "hid" instead of "hidden."
>>
>
> Well, could you tell me why in this stanza there aren't items like:
> has, have 's or 've?
It's a riddle. One of the ways of telling riddles is to just give out a
noun phrase, and the question "--what is it?" is understood without being
stated.
Here is a page that has several traditional that use the same construction,
and some others that don't:
http://home.gwi.net/~rdorman/frilond/bac/poems/riddles.htm
--
Roland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food.
NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to
remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it.
Dominic Bojarski
> Dnia N 01 lip 2007 19:59:35 w
> Richoux) napisa³(a):
>
> > When Bilbo plays the riddle-game with Gollum in "The Hobbit," one
> > of the riddles is:
>
> > A box without hinges, key, or lid,
> > Yet golden treasure inside is hid.
>
> > That's a memorable case of "hid" instead of "hidden."
>
> Well, could you tell me why in this stanza there aren't items like:
> has, have 's or 've?
>
Because the third part of the verb is used not only in perfect tenses,
but in the passive voice as well.
Example:
He has eaten the pizza. (Perfect: have/has + third form)
Dos ownie: Ja mam zjedzon t pizz .
Pizza is eaten in America. (Passive: am/is/are + third form).
Dos ownie: Pizza jezt jedzona w Ameryce.
The third form is often used as an independent, verb-derived adjective
in it's own right, like "zaj ty" and "zm czony" are in Polish. That is
how "hid(den)" is being used here. Do you think of them as forms of
the verbs "zaj " and "zm czy ", or as ordinary adjectives?
Tolkein probably used "hid" instead of "hidden" for poetic effect.
Dominic Bojarski
Yooseph
<news:1183315024....@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> Dominic
Bojarski <dominic...@gmail.com> napisał(a):
>
> Because the third part of the verb is used not only in perfect
> tenses, but in the passive voice as well.
>
> Example:
>
> He has eaten the pizza. (Perfect: have/has + third form)
> Dos ownie: Ja mam zjedzon t pizz .
>
> Pizza is eaten in America. (Passive: am/is/are + third form).
> Dos ownie: Pizza jezt jedzona w Ameryce.
>
> The third form is often used as an independent, verb-derived
> adjective in it's own right, like "zaj ty" and "zm czony" are in
> Polish. That is how "hid(den)" is being used here. Do you think of
> them as forms of the verbs "zaj " and "zm czy ", or as ordinary
> adjectives?
>
> Tolkein probably used "hid" instead of "hidden" for poetic effect.
>
Yeah, I finally noticed that this in in passive. Now I know almost
everything about hid/hidden.
But there are more examples of unusual irregulars:
cleave -> cleft/clove -> cleft/clove
shrink -> shrunk -> shriven/shrunken
het -> got -> got/gotten
etc.
Pozdro
--
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yooseph&gazeta,pl,nospam
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Donna Richoux
> tr...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux) napisa?(a):
> > A box without hinges, key, or lid,
> > Yet golden treasure inside is hid.
> >
> > That's a memorable case of "hid" instead of "hidden."
>
> Well, could you tell me why in this stanza there aren't items like:
> has, have 's or 've?
It's the past participle used as adjective.
The wall is painted.
It is a painted wall.
The wall was painted.
The wall has been painted.
The wall had been painted.
To use "painted" as a proper past participle, the subject has to be who
is doing the painting, not the object receiving paint.
I painted the wall. I have painted the wall.
I hid in the closet. I have hidden in the closet.
You see this participle-as-adjective all the time. More examples:
It is known...
They are excited.
This is woven cloth.
(Someone may come along with other names -- grammatical terms are not
fixed.)
I noticed you asked in the first post specifically about "the verb
form 'hid' or 'hidden' as past participle" which is why I went on to
compare figures for "I've hidden" to "I've hid".
I suppose I must have seen or heard people say things like "I've hid
there many times" but it never made any impression on my memory. There
are an awful lot of irregular past participles floating around, once you
take into account US/UK differences, regional dialectal differences,
changes over time (including poetic and Biblical use), and plain old
substandard errors, so I don't really try to keep track of trends as
long as I can understand what is meant, and remember what to use myself.
--
Donna Richoux
Yooseph
<news:1183315024....@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> Dominic
Bojarski <dominic...@gmail.com> napisał(a):
>
> Because the third part of the verb is used not only in perfect
> tenses, but in the passive voice as well.
>
> Example:
>
> He has eaten the pizza. (Perfect: have/has + third form)
> Dos ownie: Ja mam zjedzon t pizz .
>
> Pizza is eaten in America. (Passive: am/is/are + third form).
> Dos ownie: Pizza jezt jedzona w Ameryce.
>
> The third form is often used as an independent, verb-derived
> adjective in it's own right, like "zaj ty" and "zm czony" are in
> Polish. That is how "hid(den)" is being used here. Do you think of
> them as forms of the verbs "zaj " and "zm czy ", or as ordinary
> adjectives?
>
> Tolkein probably used "hid" instead of "hidden" for poetic effect.
>
Yeah, I finally noticed that this in in passive. Now I know almost
everything about hid/hidden.
But there are more examples of unusual irregulars:
cleave -> cleft/clove -> cleft/clove
shrink -> shrunk -> shrunk/shrunken
Sebastian Hew
news:1i0l7r4.13gft8g7jbo2bN%tr...@euronet.nl...
> When Bilbo plays the riddle-game with Gollum in "The Hobbit," one of the
> riddles is:
>
> A box without hinges, key, or lid,
> Yet golden treasure inside is hid.
>
> That's a memorable case of "hid" instead of "hidden."
Another memorable instance, the one that immediately sprang to mind when I
saw the question, and perhaps better known than Bilbo's riddle, is the
collect for purity, which I quote from the BCP:
'Almighty God, unto whom all hearts are open, all desires known, and from
whom no secrets are hid; Cleanse the thoughts of our hearts by the
inspiration of thy Holy Spirit, that we may perfectly love thee, and
worthily magnify thy holy Name; through Christ our Lord.'
Matthew Huntbach
Compare also "I've broken / I've broke", "I've spoken / I've spoke",
"I've eaten / I've ate", "I've rang / I've rung", ...
Or "It is broken / it is broke", "I rang / I rung", ...
In general, the distinction between past and past participle is an
uneasy one in English. I suspect that it was breaking down when English
was formalised into a written standard, and had this not happened, the
distinction would have disappeared. The uneasiness is reflected by the
AmE retention of the separate past participle of "to get" whereas BrE
had lost it, and also by the acceptability of poetic wrong usages such
as that noted above.
Matthew Huntbach